WEBVTT - Australia’s childcare crisis

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<v Speaker 1>Just a warning before we get started. This episode discusses

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<v Speaker 1>child sexual abuse. Please take care while listening. Are children

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<v Speaker 1>safe at childcare?

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<v Speaker 2>I believe right now they're not safe.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a huge statement.

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<v Speaker 2>It is. This sector is in crisis and that's why

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<v Speaker 2>the governments really have to act urgently, because children aren't safe.

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<v Speaker 1>Adele Ferguson is an investigative journalist at the ABC. She

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<v Speaker 1>spent more than a year reporting on the crisis unfolding

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<v Speaker 1>in Australia's childcare system, and last week, alongside her colleague

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<v Speaker 1>Chris Gillette, she won the top honor in journalism, the

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<v Speaker 1>gold Walkley. Her work has inspired us at seven Am

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<v Speaker 1>and so today we're bringing you an episode we made

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<v Speaker 1>back in July where we spoke to Adele about her investigation.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM today

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<v Speaker 1>four Corners reporter Adele Ferguson on the dangers in an

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<v Speaker 1>industry driven by profit, and the former National Children's Commissioner

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<v Speaker 1>Anne Hollands for what needs to be done to protect

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<v Speaker 1>children and care. It's Sunday, December seven, Good evening.

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<v Speaker 3>We begin with one of the most distressing child sex

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<v Speaker 3>abuse investigations in Victoria's history.

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<v Speaker 1>Hundreds of children are tonight awaiting urgent Adele thank you

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<v Speaker 1>for speaking with me. Can you just lay out for

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<v Speaker 1>us the allegations that have emerged in the last few

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<v Speaker 1>days about sexual abuse in Victorian childcare centers.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So it was a twenty six year old called

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<v Speaker 2>Joshua Brown who was arrested and charged with seventy counts

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<v Speaker 2>of sexual abuse of children, eight children between the ages

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<v Speaker 2>of five months and two year so very young. Police

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<v Speaker 2>have records of the man working at twenty different childcare

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<v Speaker 2>centers between twenty seventeen and twenty twenty five, most of

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<v Speaker 2>them in Melbourne's West.

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<v Speaker 3>The state government, how is it.

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<v Speaker 1>That that could happen? What safeguards are in place to

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<v Speaker 1>stop perpetrators working in childcare centers?

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<v Speaker 2>They are supposed to be working with children's checks, but

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<v Speaker 2>they're deeply flawed. So each state is different. In Queensland

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<v Speaker 2>you have the Blue card and other states there's the

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<v Speaker 2>working with children and what happens is you have to

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<v Speaker 2>have been charged with a serious offense to lose you

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<v Speaker 2>working with children checks, so you might be under the

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<v Speaker 2>radar and so you have a working with children's check,

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<v Speaker 2>which is what happened to the gentlemen in Victoria. And

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<v Speaker 2>in terms of working with children checks, if you're in act,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, and you've been investigated and you've been suspended

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<v Speaker 2>from a childcare center, you can just hop to another

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<v Speaker 2>state and get a working with children check. Privacy protects

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<v Speaker 2>these people because the states don't share things. And that's

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<v Speaker 2>why there's been caused to have a national register for

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<v Speaker 2>ten years and it hasn't happened yet.

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<v Speaker 1>The man he was alleged to have molested children in

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<v Speaker 1>his care worked across several centers. On the surface, it's

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<v Speaker 1>hard to understand how he wasn't caught by our colleague sooner,

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<v Speaker 1>can you tell me what your reporting has uncovered about

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<v Speaker 1>why it is that childcare workers may not report abuse

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<v Speaker 1>if they see it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's a number of reasons. One, how do these

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<v Speaker 2>people get away with it? You know, in the case

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<v Speaker 2>of Ashley Griffiths, who's now in jail off for life,

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<v Speaker 2>he worked across many centers and it went under the radar. Anythink,

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<v Speaker 2>how does that happen when this guy had tripods and

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<v Speaker 2>was filming in the childcare center.

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<v Speaker 4>One of Australia's worst ever pedophiles has been sentenced to

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<v Speaker 4>life in prison without the possibility of parole for twenty

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<v Speaker 4>seven years after confessing to raping and abusing scores of

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<v Speaker 4>girls in childcare centers across Australia and overseas.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the reasons is lack of supervision. There aren't

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<v Speaker 2>enough staff. There's a lot of gaming of the system

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<v Speaker 2>when it comes to staff to child ratios. But in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of the reporting of it, it's mandatory to report.

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<v Speaker 2>But there's two reasons why it often doesn't happen. One,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of educators don't understand child protection policies. They

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<v Speaker 2>don't understand the mandatory reporting that's required, so they don't

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<v Speaker 2>do it. And the other reason is they're too scared.

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<v Speaker 2>Sometimes if they report anything, they get retribution or they

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<v Speaker 2>become a para because they're dobbing in a workmate. And

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<v Speaker 2>so there's those two things that they're not protected when

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<v Speaker 2>they do the mandatory that they should, but they're not

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<v Speaker 2>protected from the system when they do.

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<v Speaker 1>Your Four Corners investigation into the childcare sector revealed that

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<v Speaker 1>even the dodgy ist providers who aren't meeting basic standards

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<v Speaker 1>are still allowed to operate. Can you explain how that works?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's that's exactly right.

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<v Speaker 5>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the problems is there's been this explosion in

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<v Speaker 2>for profit operators, private equity listed companies, overseas operators, and

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<v Speaker 2>they're putting profit before children. And because there's such a

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<v Speaker 2>demand for childcare centers, the regulators seem to not have

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<v Speaker 2>the appetite to go after them. So when educators do

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<v Speaker 2>something wrong, in many cases, when you're looking at the

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<v Speaker 2>regulatory documents or you're talking to parents, not a lot

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<v Speaker 2>seems to happen. So, you know, when the when the

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<v Speaker 2>Minister for Education is saying we're going to beef up

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<v Speaker 2>penalties because they're not high enough, I'm thinking to myself, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a good idea, But the regulators aren't even using

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<v Speaker 2>the penalties that they have. So there's a problem. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think one of the one of the reasons for

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<v Speaker 2>that is if they go in hard and shut a

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<v Speaker 2>center down, they're worried what are the implications for parents?

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<v Speaker 2>Where do the parents put the children.

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<v Speaker 1>There's been a lot of focus by the federal government

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<v Speaker 1>on expanding access to childcare. Within that, what focus has

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<v Speaker 1>there been on safety?

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<v Speaker 2>Not a lot, as we can clearly see. It's only

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<v Speaker 2>since this terrible incident happened in Victoria that governments are

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<v Speaker 2>coming out saying we've got to do more. Jason Clair

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<v Speaker 2>was on seven point thirty saying we haven't done enough

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<v Speaker 2>and we've got to move faster.

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<v Speaker 3>We're taking action, but not enough action has happened and

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<v Speaker 3>not fast enough.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, let's talk about that.

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<v Speaker 2>Safety has not been on the agenda. It's all been

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<v Speaker 2>about affordability.

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<v Speaker 3>The honest answer to you is that this job will

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<v Speaker 3>never be done. That there will always be bad people

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<v Speaker 3>that try and break through the net. That doesn't mean

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<v Speaker 3>that you do nothing, though. That means that we've got

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<v Speaker 3>to do everything that we possibly can to make sure

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<v Speaker 3>that our children are safe. That's why people are talking

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<v Speaker 3>now about CCTV or about an educator register, about improving

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<v Speaker 3>working with children checks. None of that is a silver bullet.

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<v Speaker 3>None of that is going to guarantee every child is safe.

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<v Speaker 3>But all of it are the sort of things that

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<v Speaker 3>are necessary if we're faired income about doing it.

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<v Speaker 2>What the government is saying is by September they will

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<v Speaker 2>have a working national Working with Children checks. There also

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<v Speaker 2>needs to be a national registration scheme for educators so

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<v Speaker 2>that we can track who they are how often they've

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<v Speaker 2>moved around. We have that for age care, we have

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<v Speaker 2>it for teachers, we have it for medical practitioners. We

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<v Speaker 2>don't have it for child care workers.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break, the former National Children's Commissioner Ann Holland

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<v Speaker 1>on a national response that could protect the voiceless. And

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<v Speaker 1>you've called for stronger regulation of the childcare sector. What

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<v Speaker 1>would that actually look like. What sort of things would

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<v Speaker 1>change to make sure that there is stronger regulation.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, first of all, I think we need independent oversight

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<v Speaker 5>and monitoring. What I'm unclear about is how independent the

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<v Speaker 5>current regulators are in the states and territories. Secondly, they

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<v Speaker 5>need to be properly resourced, so you know, we've heard

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<v Speaker 5>allegations that they're not visiting centers very often, and that's

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<v Speaker 5>because of a lack of funds. And then thirdly, they

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<v Speaker 5>need to have teeth to act. They need legislation that

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<v Speaker 5>enables them to take the actions that are necessary. So

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<v Speaker 5>on all three accounts we seem to be lacking at

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<v Speaker 5>the moment.

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<v Speaker 1>Another thing that has been flow at the moment is

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<v Speaker 1>that all childcare centers should have CCTV surveillance within them.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you think about that?

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<v Speaker 5>Well, I think The recommendation came out of the New

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<v Speaker 5>South Wales review after the Four Corners episodes, and I

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<v Speaker 5>think that recommendation said that you'd only have CCTV for

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<v Speaker 5>the dodgy providers. Well, the dodgy providers shouldn't be operating,

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<v Speaker 5>so forget that. They should be out of the game.

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<v Speaker 5>And I note that Good Start Early Learning, which is

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<v Speaker 5>the largest not for profit provider in the country, have

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<v Speaker 5>already announced that they're going to install CCTV everywhere, so

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<v Speaker 5>I think we take the lead from them. I think

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<v Speaker 5>it's good practice.

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<v Speaker 1>We've also heard a lot in the wake of these

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<v Speaker 1>allegations that a discussion has emerged about banning men from

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<v Speaker 1>working in childcare centers. Do you think that that's a

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<v Speaker 1>legitimate proposal policy that the sector could adopt, or is

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<v Speaker 1>are the other factors that need to be taken to

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<v Speaker 1>an account?

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<v Speaker 5>Well, look, I think it's an overreaction and I perhaps

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<v Speaker 5>understandable given how outraged we are across the country right now,

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<v Speaker 5>but I don't support you know, I think there are

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<v Speaker 5>very good childcare workers of both men and women in

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<v Speaker 5>the sector who are doing an amazing job. Kids need

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<v Speaker 5>role models of both gender. We just need better screening

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<v Speaker 5>and recruitment measures. We need better training of staff, all

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<v Speaker 5>staff in centers, from boardroom to the sand pit. Everyone

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<v Speaker 5>needs to know what to look for in terms of

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<v Speaker 5>grooming and risky behaviors. And we need that strongth regulatory

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<v Speaker 5>scaffolding that we've just discussed.

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<v Speaker 1>You said National Cabinet must make child safety and well

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<v Speaker 1>being a key priority in the same way that women's

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<v Speaker 1>safety is a top priority. What would that actually look.

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<v Speaker 5>Like, and well, you know that could be done with

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<v Speaker 5>the stroke of a pen, Daniel. There could be a

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<v Speaker 5>decision made by the Prime Minister that you know, we

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<v Speaker 5>need to prioritize child safety and well being and he

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<v Speaker 5>gets state and territory colleagues to agree to that. With

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<v Speaker 5>women and women's safety, what it looks like is that

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<v Speaker 5>there are reports it's to National Cabinet on reform actions

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<v Speaker 5>that have been agreed on and all the states and

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<v Speaker 5>territories work together with the Commonwealth to progress reforms. So

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<v Speaker 5>everybody's at the table and there is accountability at the top.

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<v Speaker 5>And by the way, we do that because we see

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<v Speaker 5>women and women's safety as a critical national issue. So

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<v Speaker 5>it's a very good thing that we're doing that currently.

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<v Speaker 5>When you look at the list of issues for National

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<v Speaker 5>Cabinet and it's publicly available, you won't see the word

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<v Speaker 5>children anywhere on that list. I think that's a very

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<v Speaker 5>important missing piece in the terms of accountability for action

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<v Speaker 5>on these previous Royal commissions and inquiry recommendations that now

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<v Speaker 5>it's being admitted that we were too slow to and

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<v Speaker 5>act them. Why because there's no accountability to do so.

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<v Speaker 5>The other thing we need is a Cabinet Minister for children.

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<v Speaker 5>Why do we have cabinet ministers for women, We've had

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<v Speaker 5>them for decades. It's because it's an important accountability mechanism.

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<v Speaker 5>It provides national leadership and coordination across the portfolios and

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<v Speaker 5>keeps women's issues front of mind. Who's doing that for children?

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<v Speaker 1>No one.

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<v Speaker 5>Another mechanism that I've recommended in a report to Parliament

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<v Speaker 5>last year, as well as a Minister for children as

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<v Speaker 5>well as national Cabinet oversight, is a Ministerial Council on

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<v Speaker 5>Child Wellbeing. So this would be a council of experts

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<v Speaker 5>from different disciplines that would provide advice to ministers about

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<v Speaker 5>what needs to be done. Again, we don't have any

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<v Speaker 5>of that for children.

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<v Speaker 1>What does it say about our society, and that we've

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<v Speaker 1>relegated the care of our oldest and our youngest to

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<v Speaker 1>systems driven by profit and which we see time and

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<v Speaker 1>time again. I write with abuse.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, you know, I spent a lot of time asking

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<v Speaker 5>myself why are children sidelined and often invisible when it

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<v Speaker 5>comes to policy? When you ask about that in terms

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<v Speaker 5>of children, well, they don't vote, for a start, they

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<v Speaker 5>don't have a voice, and there is no accountability mechanisms

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<v Speaker 5>in place. What does it say about our society? Well,

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<v Speaker 5>I think it shows actually a gap between what people value.

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<v Speaker 5>Ordinary citizens value, they value children, they value older people, right,

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<v Speaker 5>and what politicians are spending their time thinking about.

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<v Speaker 1>And thank you so much for your time, Thanks Daniel.

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<v Speaker 1>Since me originally ran this story, Four Corners has published

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<v Speaker 1>another investigation into how widespread abuse is in childcare. The

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<v Speaker 1>government has responded to the crisis by promising to implement

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<v Speaker 1>a national Working with Children's system, something the Royal Commission

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<v Speaker 1>to Child Sexual Abuse recommended more than a decade ago.

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<v Speaker 1>Childcare workers will also receive the second part of a

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<v Speaker 1>government funded pay rise, as poor pay has been highlighted

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<v Speaker 1>as a key reason for a lack of safety in childcare.

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<v Speaker 1>If you want to hear more of our reporting on

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<v Speaker 1>this issue and more about what still needs to change,

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<v Speaker 1>you can listen to our interview with Green's MLC Abigail

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<v Speaker 1>Boyd is called the Woman who Exposed the childcare Industry,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's available wherever you listen to podcasts. There is

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<v Speaker 1>specialist help available for people who've experienced sexual abuse. Kids

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<v Speaker 1>Helpline as a free confidential counseling service for young people

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<v Speaker 1>aged from five to twenty five. You can reach them

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<v Speaker 1>on one eight hundred double five to one eight hundred.

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<v Speaker 1>They're available twenty four to seven, or you can call

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<v Speaker 1>one eight hundred. Respect, a counseling service which also supports

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<v Speaker 1>people affected by sexual abuse, and they're also available twenty

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<v Speaker 1>four to seven