Speaker 1: Just a warning before we get started. This episode discusses
Speaker 1: child sexual abuse. Please take care while listening. Are children
Speaker 1: safe at childcare?
Speaker 2: I believe right now they're not safe.
Speaker 1: That's a huge statement.
Speaker 2: It is. This sector is in crisis and that's why
Speaker 2: the governments really have to act urgently, because children aren't safe.
Speaker 1: Adele Ferguson is an investigative journalist at the ABC. She
Speaker 1: spent more than a year reporting on the crisis unfolding
Speaker 1: in Australia's childcare system, and last week, alongside her colleague
Speaker 1: Chris Gillette, she won the top honor in journalism, the
Speaker 1: gold Walkley. Her work has inspired us at seven Am
Speaker 1: and so today we're bringing you an episode we made
Speaker 1: back in July where we spoke to Adele about her investigation.
Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM today
Speaker 1: four Corners reporter Adele Ferguson on the dangers in an
Speaker 1: industry driven by profit, and the former National Children's Commissioner
Speaker 1: Anne Hollands for what needs to be done to protect
Speaker 1: children and care. It's Sunday, December seven, Good evening.
Speaker 3: We begin with one of the most distressing child sex
Speaker 3: abuse investigations in Victoria's history.
Speaker 1: Hundreds of children are tonight awaiting urgent Adele thank you
Speaker 1: for speaking with me. Can you just lay out for
Speaker 1: us the allegations that have emerged in the last few
Speaker 1: days about sexual abuse in Victorian childcare centers.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So it was a twenty six year old called
Speaker 2: Joshua Brown who was arrested and charged with seventy counts
Speaker 2: of sexual abuse of children, eight children between the ages
Speaker 2: of five months and two year so very young. Police
Speaker 2: have records of the man working at twenty different childcare
Speaker 2: centers between twenty seventeen and twenty twenty five, most of
Speaker 2: them in Melbourne's West.
Speaker 3: The state government, how is it.
Speaker 1: That that could happen? What safeguards are in place to
Speaker 1: stop perpetrators working in childcare centers?
Speaker 2: They are supposed to be working with children's checks, but
Speaker 2: they're deeply flawed. So each state is different. In Queensland
Speaker 2: you have the Blue card and other states there's the
Speaker 2: working with children and what happens is you have to
Speaker 2: have been charged with a serious offense to lose you
Speaker 2: working with children checks, so you might be under the
Speaker 2: radar and so you have a working with children's check,
Speaker 2: which is what happened to the gentlemen in Victoria. And
Speaker 2: in terms of working with children checks, if you're in act,
Speaker 2: for example, and you've been investigated and you've been suspended
Speaker 2: from a childcare center, you can just hop to another
Speaker 2: state and get a working with children check. Privacy protects
Speaker 2: these people because the states don't share things. And that's
Speaker 2: why there's been caused to have a national register for
Speaker 2: ten years and it hasn't happened yet.
Speaker 1: The man he was alleged to have molested children in
Speaker 1: his care worked across several centers. On the surface, it's
Speaker 1: hard to understand how he wasn't caught by our colleague sooner,
Speaker 1: can you tell me what your reporting has uncovered about
Speaker 1: why it is that childcare workers may not report abuse
Speaker 1: if they see it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a number of reasons. One, how do these
Speaker 2: people get away with it? You know, in the case
Speaker 2: of Ashley Griffiths, who's now in jail off for life,
Speaker 2: he worked across many centers and it went under the radar. Anythink,
Speaker 2: how does that happen when this guy had tripods and
Speaker 2: was filming in the childcare center.
Speaker 4: One of Australia's worst ever pedophiles has been sentenced to
Speaker 4: life in prison without the possibility of parole for twenty
Speaker 4: seven years after confessing to raping and abusing scores of
Speaker 4: girls in childcare centers across Australia and overseas.
Speaker 2: One of the reasons is lack of supervision. There aren't
Speaker 2: enough staff. There's a lot of gaming of the system
Speaker 2: when it comes to staff to child ratios. But in
Speaker 2: terms of the reporting of it, it's mandatory to report.
Speaker 2: But there's two reasons why it often doesn't happen. One,
Speaker 2: a lot of educators don't understand child protection policies. They
Speaker 2: don't understand the mandatory reporting that's required, so they don't
Speaker 2: do it. And the other reason is they're too scared.
Speaker 2: Sometimes if they report anything, they get retribution or they
Speaker 2: become a para because they're dobbing in a workmate. And
Speaker 2: so there's those two things that they're not protected when
Speaker 2: they do the mandatory that they should, but they're not
Speaker 2: protected from the system when they do.
Speaker 1: Your Four Corners investigation into the childcare sector revealed that
Speaker 1: even the dodgy ist providers who aren't meeting basic standards
Speaker 1: are still allowed to operate. Can you explain how that works?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's exactly right.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 2: One of the problems is there's been this explosion in
Speaker 2: for profit operators, private equity listed companies, overseas operators, and
Speaker 2: they're putting profit before children. And because there's such a
Speaker 2: demand for childcare centers, the regulators seem to not have
Speaker 2: the appetite to go after them. So when educators do
Speaker 2: something wrong, in many cases, when you're looking at the
Speaker 2: regulatory documents or you're talking to parents, not a lot
Speaker 2: seems to happen. So, you know, when the when the
Speaker 2: Minister for Education is saying we're going to beef up
Speaker 2: penalties because they're not high enough, I'm thinking to myself, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's a good idea, But the regulators aren't even using
Speaker 2: the penalties that they have. So there's a problem. And
Speaker 2: I think one of the one of the reasons for
Speaker 2: that is if they go in hard and shut a
Speaker 2: center down, they're worried what are the implications for parents?
Speaker 2: Where do the parents put the children.
Speaker 1: There's been a lot of focus by the federal government
Speaker 1: on expanding access to childcare. Within that, what focus has
Speaker 1: there been on safety?
Speaker 2: Not a lot, as we can clearly see. It's only
Speaker 2: since this terrible incident happened in Victoria that governments are
Speaker 2: coming out saying we've got to do more. Jason Clair
Speaker 2: was on seven point thirty saying we haven't done enough
Speaker 2: and we've got to move faster.
Speaker 3: We're taking action, but not enough action has happened and
Speaker 3: not fast enough.
Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about that.
Speaker 2: Safety has not been on the agenda. It's all been
Speaker 2: about affordability.
Speaker 3: The honest answer to you is that this job will
Speaker 3: never be done. That there will always be bad people
Speaker 3: that try and break through the net. That doesn't mean
Speaker 3: that you do nothing, though. That means that we've got
Speaker 3: to do everything that we possibly can to make sure
Speaker 3: that our children are safe. That's why people are talking
Speaker 3: now about CCTV or about an educator register, about improving
Speaker 3: working with children checks. None of that is a silver bullet.
Speaker 3: None of that is going to guarantee every child is safe.
Speaker 3: But all of it are the sort of things that
Speaker 3: are necessary if we're faired income about doing it.
Speaker 2: What the government is saying is by September they will
Speaker 2: have a working national Working with Children checks. There also
Speaker 2: needs to be a national registration scheme for educators so
Speaker 2: that we can track who they are how often they've
Speaker 2: moved around. We have that for age care, we have
Speaker 2: it for teachers, we have it for medical practitioners. We
Speaker 2: don't have it for child care workers.
Speaker 1: After the break, the former National Children's Commissioner Ann Holland
Speaker 1: on a national response that could protect the voiceless. And
Speaker 1: you've called for stronger regulation of the childcare sector. What
Speaker 1: would that actually look like. What sort of things would
Speaker 1: change to make sure that there is stronger regulation.
Speaker 5: Well, first of all, I think we need independent oversight
Speaker 5: and monitoring. What I'm unclear about is how independent the
Speaker 5: current regulators are in the states and territories. Secondly, they
Speaker 5: need to be properly resourced, so you know, we've heard
Speaker 5: allegations that they're not visiting centers very often, and that's
Speaker 5: because of a lack of funds. And then thirdly, they
Speaker 5: need to have teeth to act. They need legislation that
Speaker 5: enables them to take the actions that are necessary. So
Speaker 5: on all three accounts we seem to be lacking at
Speaker 5: the moment.
Speaker 1: Another thing that has been flow at the moment is
Speaker 1: that all childcare centers should have CCTV surveillance within them.
Speaker 1: What do you think about that?
Speaker 5: Well, I think The recommendation came out of the New
Speaker 5: South Wales review after the Four Corners episodes, and I
Speaker 5: think that recommendation said that you'd only have CCTV for
Speaker 5: the dodgy providers. Well, the dodgy providers shouldn't be operating,
Speaker 5: so forget that. They should be out of the game.
Speaker 5: And I note that Good Start Early Learning, which is
Speaker 5: the largest not for profit provider in the country, have
Speaker 5: already announced that they're going to install CCTV everywhere, so
Speaker 5: I think we take the lead from them. I think
Speaker 5: it's good practice.
Speaker 1: We've also heard a lot in the wake of these
Speaker 1: allegations that a discussion has emerged about banning men from
Speaker 1: working in childcare centers. Do you think that that's a
Speaker 1: legitimate proposal policy that the sector could adopt, or is
Speaker 1: are the other factors that need to be taken to
Speaker 1: an account?
Speaker 5: Well, look, I think it's an overreaction and I perhaps
Speaker 5: understandable given how outraged we are across the country right now,
Speaker 5: but I don't support you know, I think there are
Speaker 5: very good childcare workers of both men and women in
Speaker 5: the sector who are doing an amazing job. Kids need
Speaker 5: role models of both gender. We just need better screening
Speaker 5: and recruitment measures. We need better training of staff, all
Speaker 5: staff in centers, from boardroom to the sand pit. Everyone
Speaker 5: needs to know what to look for in terms of
Speaker 5: grooming and risky behaviors. And we need that strongth regulatory
Speaker 5: scaffolding that we've just discussed.
Speaker 1: You said National Cabinet must make child safety and well
Speaker 1: being a key priority in the same way that women's
Speaker 1: safety is a top priority. What would that actually look.
Speaker 5: Like, and well, you know that could be done with
Speaker 5: the stroke of a pen, Daniel. There could be a
Speaker 5: decision made by the Prime Minister that you know, we
Speaker 5: need to prioritize child safety and well being and he
Speaker 5: gets state and territory colleagues to agree to that. With
Speaker 5: women and women's safety, what it looks like is that
Speaker 5: there are reports it's to National Cabinet on reform actions
Speaker 5: that have been agreed on and all the states and
Speaker 5: territories work together with the Commonwealth to progress reforms. So
Speaker 5: everybody's at the table and there is accountability at the top.
Speaker 5: And by the way, we do that because we see
Speaker 5: women and women's safety as a critical national issue. So
Speaker 5: it's a very good thing that we're doing that currently.
Speaker 5: When you look at the list of issues for National
Speaker 5: Cabinet and it's publicly available, you won't see the word
Speaker 5: children anywhere on that list. I think that's a very
Speaker 5: important missing piece in the terms of accountability for action
Speaker 5: on these previous Royal commissions and inquiry recommendations that now
Speaker 5: it's being admitted that we were too slow to and
Speaker 5: act them. Why because there's no accountability to do so.
Speaker 5: The other thing we need is a Cabinet Minister for children.
Speaker 5: Why do we have cabinet ministers for women, We've had
Speaker 5: them for decades. It's because it's an important accountability mechanism.
Speaker 5: It provides national leadership and coordination across the portfolios and
Speaker 5: keeps women's issues front of mind. Who's doing that for children?
Speaker 1: No one.
Speaker 5: Another mechanism that I've recommended in a report to Parliament
Speaker 5: last year, as well as a Minister for children as
Speaker 5: well as national Cabinet oversight, is a Ministerial Council on
Speaker 5: Child Wellbeing. So this would be a council of experts
Speaker 5: from different disciplines that would provide advice to ministers about
Speaker 5: what needs to be done. Again, we don't have any
Speaker 5: of that for children.
Speaker 1: What does it say about our society, and that we've
Speaker 1: relegated the care of our oldest and our youngest to
Speaker 1: systems driven by profit and which we see time and
Speaker 1: time again. I write with abuse.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, I spent a lot of time asking
Speaker 5: myself why are children sidelined and often invisible when it
Speaker 5: comes to policy? When you ask about that in terms
Speaker 5: of children, well, they don't vote, for a start, they
Speaker 5: don't have a voice, and there is no accountability mechanisms
Speaker 5: in place. What does it say about our society? Well,
Speaker 5: I think it shows actually a gap between what people value.
Speaker 5: Ordinary citizens value, they value children, they value older people, right,
Speaker 5: and what politicians are spending their time thinking about.
Speaker 1: And thank you so much for your time, Thanks Daniel.
Speaker 1: Since me originally ran this story, Four Corners has published
Speaker 1: another investigation into how widespread abuse is in childcare. The
Speaker 1: government has responded to the crisis by promising to implement
Speaker 1: a national Working with Children's system, something the Royal Commission
Speaker 1: to Child Sexual Abuse recommended more than a decade ago.
Speaker 1: Childcare workers will also receive the second part of a
Speaker 1: government funded pay rise, as poor pay has been highlighted
Speaker 1: as a key reason for a lack of safety in childcare.
Speaker 1: If you want to hear more of our reporting on
Speaker 1: this issue and more about what still needs to change,
Speaker 1: you can listen to our interview with Green's MLC Abigail
Speaker 1: Boyd is called the Woman who Exposed the childcare Industry,
Speaker 1: and it's available wherever you listen to podcasts. There is
Speaker 1: specialist help available for people who've experienced sexual abuse. Kids
Speaker 1: Helpline as a free confidential counseling service for young people
Speaker 1: aged from five to twenty five. You can reach them
Speaker 1: on one eight hundred double five to one eight hundred.
Speaker 1: They're available twenty four to seven, or you can call
Speaker 1: one eight hundred. Respect, a counseling service which also supports
Speaker 1: people affected by sexual abuse, and they're also available twenty
Speaker 1: four to seven