Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course
Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to
Speaker 1: you by Me Headley Thomas and The Australian from John
Speaker 1: and Bromlan's old house on the hillside in Lennox Head.
Speaker 1: It is a fifteen minute drive to the nearest police
Speaker 1: station in the town of Ballina. The coast Road is
Speaker 1: the picturesque route south, passing John's favorite surfing beaches of
Speaker 1: boulders and sharps. Heading west for a bridge crossing at
Speaker 1: North Creek, John pulled up at River Street, so called
Speaker 1: because of the Mighty Richmond River, a stone's throw from
Speaker 1: the police building.
Speaker 2: He got here on a.
Speaker 1: Wednesday morning in August nineteen ninety eight to be interviewed
Speaker 1: by Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor about the disappearance of Bromwin
Speaker 1: five years and three months earlier. The videotape of that
Speaker 1: interview remains under lock and key with New South Wales Police.
Speaker 1: Bromwin's sister Kim Marshall, retrieved the official transcript of the
Speaker 1: entire conversation for me. It is vitally important as a
Speaker 1: record of the one and only time John Winfield's version
Speaker 1: of events. His side of the story has been properly
Speaker 1: documented by a senior police detective. Prior to August five,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight. His side of the story was known
Speaker 1: to many, but they'd heard it from others too, so
Speaker 1: there was both direct and hearsay knowledge. There were John's
Speaker 1: versions of his trip back to Lennox Head on the
Speaker 1: night of Sunday, May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three, his conversations
Speaker 1: with Bromwyn and the two girls in the house at
Speaker 1: Sandstone Crescent before they were put to bed, His story
Speaker 1: about Bromwyn having said she wanted a break from the
Speaker 1: children for a few days. The phone calls, he says
Speaker 1: Bromwyn made from the bedroom that night. The car, he
Speaker 1: says he heard, pull up outside the house on Sandstone
Speaker 1: Crescent soon afterwards to collect her, his explanation for his hasty.
Speaker 2: Departure from the house that night.
Speaker 1: Then a drive of ten hours or so south on
Speaker 1: the Old Pacific Highway with Crystal and Lauren and the
Speaker 1: pet dog until their arrival the next morning in Sydney.
Speaker 1: All of these things were known to Bromwan's friends and family,
Speaker 1: but they were told and retold in dribs and drabs
Speaker 1: important facts were not known at all. For example, John's
Speaker 1: sudden arrival at his former wife's home in the Southerland
Speaker 1: shire of Sydney on the morning of the drive from
Speaker 1: Lennox Head, and the plea he made to that woman's
Speaker 1: mother in law, whom he had never met, to look
Speaker 1: after the girls. As John said, he had an important
Speaker 1: job to do.
Speaker 3: My daughter in law, Jenny was out and I was
Speaker 3: not sure where Brad was.
Speaker 1: In episode four, a voice actor for Joan Mason read
Speaker 1: parts of her police statement.
Speaker 3: I answered the door and I saw a man who
Speaker 3: introduced himself as Winfield. I don't remember his first name,
Speaker 3: but I recalled. He told me that he had been
Speaker 3: Jenny's first husband. I saw that he had two young
Speaker 3: girls with him. I remember both these young girls were
Speaker 3: dressed in pajamas.
Speaker 2: I remember this man.
Speaker 3: Winfield asked me could he leave the two girls. He
Speaker 3: was in Sydney to do a big job. He said
Speaker 3: something about being in the building game and he had
Speaker 3: to go and see someone about a job. He said
Speaker 3: that he had been driving all night. He said he
Speaker 3: needed to leave the children with someone. I recall telling
Speaker 3: him that he could leave the kids there and I
Speaker 3: would tell Jenny when she came home. He left the
Speaker 3: children with me and I looked after them until Jenny
Speaker 3: arrived back home.
Speaker 1: Those details would only come to light in the weeks
Speaker 1: after John's interview at the Ballana Police Station on August five,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, as Detective Sergeant Glen Taylor tracked down
Speaker 1: more and more people to talk to. Andy Reid's wife,
Speaker 1: Michelle had made notes on different pieces of paper over
Speaker 1: the five years, notes of what she had been told
Speaker 1: by John and what she had been told by others
Speaker 1: who talked to John, But nobody had written all of
Speaker 1: John's words down until Glenn Taylor asked John to come
Speaker 1: to the police station four normal interview.
Speaker 2: The interview has commenced at eight fifty two AM. For
Speaker 2: the purpose of the tape record, Can everyone present state
Speaker 2: their full name? Arm Detective Sergeant Glenn William Taylor.
Speaker 1: Detective Senior Constable Wayne Temby introduced himself, and John followed.
Speaker 2: Suit Jonathan Winfield.
Speaker 1: The name Wayne Temby will be familiar to listeners back
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety three, when it was the detective Sergeant
Speaker 1: Graham Diskins's job to investigate Bromman's disappearance. Wayne Temby was
Speaker 1: a more junior officer on the case. He answered to Discan.
Speaker 1: The two investigations Detective Discins then Detective Taylor's, were starkly different.
Speaker 1: Whereas no statements were taken from anyone in nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 1: when Discin was running the investigation, Glenn Taylor was determined
Speaker 1: to interview as many people as he could find, get
Speaker 1: their statements on the record, and put them into a
Speaker 1: brief of evidence.
Speaker 2: Do you agree, mister Winfield, that there are no other
Speaker 2: persons present in the interview room other than the people
Speaker 2: that have just introduced themselves?
Speaker 4: Yes? I do.
Speaker 2: And do you agree that the only door to this
Speaker 2: interview room is directly to your left, which is in
Speaker 2: a closed position. Now, yeah, mister Winfield. As I've already
Speaker 2: explained to you, Detective Temby and I are making inquiries
Speaker 2: in relation to the disappearance of your wife, Browan Joey
Speaker 2: Winfield on or about the sixteenth of May nineteen ninety
Speaker 2: three from Lennixead. We're going to ask you some further
Speaker 2: questions about this matter. These questions and any answers that
Speaker 2: you care to give to those questions will be recorded electronically,
Speaker 2: both on video and audio. Cassette tapes as the interview
Speaker 2: takes place. Do you understand that? Yeah.
Speaker 1: In this episode, which follows the revelations in the two
Speaker 1: subscriber only episodes of eleven and twelve, you are going
Speaker 1: to hear John Winfield in his own words. You are
Speaker 1: not hearing John's voice. We've got a voice actor for this,
Speaker 1: but you are hearing Glenn Taylor's distinctive voice for this
Speaker 1: podcast series. Glenn agreed to read from the transcript of
Speaker 1: the interview that he did with John, but first, here's
Speaker 1: Glenn at his home in Ballina in March twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1: I was meeting the former homicide detective for the first time.
Speaker 1: Let's go back to the interview that you did with
Speaker 1: Jonathan Winfield. There must have been a bit of anticipation,
Speaker 1: on a bit of build up, and you go into
Speaker 1: that and how did his demeanor striking concerned that the
Speaker 1: evidence have a week later to.
Speaker 2: Lead to chargers. We believe he should put him on
Speaker 2: electronic We called it HEAVI you.
Speaker 1: He was cooperative and came to the interview with you
Speaker 1: and detected timby voluntarily es. I asked him about the
Speaker 1: pros and cons of interviewing the person of interest, a
Speaker 1: man whom Glenn regarded as a clear and present suspect
Speaker 1: ahead of interviews of everyone else. Remember when Glenn Taylor
Speaker 1: interviewed John, it was August nineteen ninety eight. Lauren and
Speaker 1: Crystal were ten and fifteen, and John was no longer
Speaker 1: in contact with Bromwan's brother Andy Reid, nor with Bromwin's
Speaker 1: sisters Kim Marshall and Melissa Reid. John had stopped talking
Speaker 1: to Bromwin's cousin, Megan Reid. The families were estranged. Bromwin's
Speaker 1: loved ones were deep suspicious of John. In the interview,
Speaker 1: are you looking at, for example, a folder that is
Speaker 1: in front of you, a long list of questions that
Speaker 1: you prepared?
Speaker 2: Of what we did. We certainly went over the movements
Speaker 2: of himself when he arrived back at the house and
Speaker 2: what was discussed, and he again a Lexid that she
Speaker 2: was seen this mysterious fan call and leaving the house
Speaker 2: and not saying where she's going already ing and then
Speaker 2: why he would suddenly just make a decision to take
Speaker 2: the key, King still in there, jamas put in the car,
Speaker 2: are they in your clothes? And then God in the
Speaker 2: family car that she was sitting positional back to Sydney.
Speaker 1: The timeline of the investigation by Glenn Taylor shows that
Speaker 1: Jonathan Winfield was the first cab off the rank, the
Speaker 1: first person to be formally interviewed.
Speaker 2: I think he's still wanted to project in the interview
Speaker 2: that he was concerned for her, and then he had
Speaker 2: nothing to hide, he'd done nothing wrong. We tried not
Speaker 2: to lead in his stay and untain and when you
Speaker 2: were sitting there opposite.
Speaker 1: Him in the media like that, which is being electronically recorded,
Speaker 1: as you're getting the answers and hearing his explanations for
Speaker 1: certain things that you might have found.
Speaker 2: Suspicious, but you're keeping an open mind.
Speaker 1: Were you being persuaded that perhaps this wasn't suspicious, that
Speaker 1: she had just started a new life.
Speaker 2: Where would she go, how would she fund herself to
Speaker 2: do these things? Loan's ever seen us since or none
Speaker 2: of her bank accounts had ever been touched, and she's
Speaker 2: never attempted to make contact with the kids. We went
Speaker 2: right through everything that he allegies happened about his marriage
Speaker 2: and going down to Sydney to do work, and then
Speaker 2: finding out that prominent move back into the family own.
Speaker 1: Did you if I any people who were antagonistic or
Speaker 1: potentially enemies of bronwin who may have caused her harm.
Speaker 2: Nay not. Why I hope he talks to me. You
Speaker 2: never know, Jonathan Winfield, he was never formally Indian. Back
Speaker 2: in the addition with mister Gash he has spoken didn't
Speaker 2: but he was never formally anyviewed by a WI of
Speaker 2: electronic recording or eveything statement taken from him. But he
Speaker 2: will have to agree to come in and talk to
Speaker 2: you all. Now, No, he didn't. But he's saying that
Speaker 2: she just walked down in the family homeland. She's just
Speaker 2: a missing person now, and that she's left the home
Speaker 2: that have her own lanes. It would likely make it
Speaker 2: more suspicious if you said, no on, I'm not going
Speaker 2: to participate in any Indian because he's always wanted to
Speaker 2: come across that she left the home that night. Never
Speaker 2: did he send again and how to strike you in
Speaker 2: that interview, I believe he wanted to put himself across
Speaker 2: as wanting to assist the police. He didn't ever indicate
Speaker 2: he wanted to be leading he represented.
Speaker 1: Now let's return to the nineteen ninety eight police interview
Speaker 1: with John Winfield.
Speaker 2: I'm just going to read this onto the record here,
Speaker 2: and if you understand it, I'll just get you to
Speaker 2: acknowledge that the statement made by you accurately sets out
Speaker 2: the evidence which you will be prepared, if necessary, to
Speaker 2: give in court as a witness. The statement is true
Speaker 2: to the best of your knowledge and belief, and you
Speaker 2: make it knowing that if it is tended in evidence,
Speaker 2: you shall be liable to prosecution if you are rawfully
Speaker 2: stated in it anything which you know to be false
Speaker 2: or do not believe to be true. Do you give
Speaker 2: an undertaking to tell the truth?
Speaker 5: In his interview, Yeah, Yeah, John confirmed that he was
Speaker 5: still living at the house in Sandstone Crescent with Lauren
Speaker 5: and Crystal.
Speaker 1: The experienced bricklayer said he was not working.
Speaker 2: Do you agree that prior to the commencement of this
Speaker 2: interview I told you that I wanted to have a
Speaker 2: conversation with you about the disappearance of your wife at
Speaker 2: Lennox Head on or about the sixteenth of May nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety three. Yeah.
Speaker 1: John answered the early questions with what, in my view
Speaker 1: reads like an offhand or somewhat disinterested tone. It seems
Speaker 1: that Glenn was trying to build rapport, gently rolling the
Speaker 1: arm over with a series of easy questions at the start,
Speaker 1: When were they married, What was Bromwin's surname before they
Speaker 1: were wed?
Speaker 2: Where did they live when.
Speaker 1: They first went to Lenox Head from the Qunella Shire?
Speaker 2: When was Lauren born? He wanted John to get comfortable.
Speaker 2: Can you give us any names that she used to
Speaker 2: associate closely with in the early nineteen nineties? Close friends.
Speaker 6: Denise Barnard, probably the next door neighbor, Debbie Nolan.
Speaker 2: Do you know where Denise? I haven't seen. Yeah.
Speaker 6: I see Denisa around town occasionally talk to her, but
Speaker 6: I don't know where she's living, either Ballino or lennox Head.
Speaker 1: I have talked to Denise about her limited contact with
Speaker 1: John after Bromin disappeared. Have you formed view about whether
Speaker 1: he did murder Roman?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 7: I have.
Speaker 2: Do you know when you formed a view like that? Right?
Speaker 7: But then I've always had that view.
Speaker 1: Did you effectively cut tires with John back then because
Speaker 1: of that view?
Speaker 7: Yes, not that he would have ever made an effort
Speaker 7: to be in contact with anyone.
Speaker 2: Really, He's not that sort of person. He would have
Speaker 2: been happy.
Speaker 7: I think once it all died down a little bit,
Speaker 7: when Lauren was at school, if it was ever in
Speaker 7: the paper Missing Person's Week Roman would appear, she'd.
Speaker 2: Be removed from school.
Speaker 7: She wouldn't be there, So he's just kept her protected
Speaker 7: all that time as well. High school, she was never
Speaker 7: there when anything was in the paper. I could never
Speaker 7: approach her say remember me, I mean she was little.
Speaker 7: Maybe she remembers me.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 7: When I see her now, she's identical to a mom
Speaker 7: from behind.
Speaker 2: Do you ever talk to her?
Speaker 7: I didn't ever want to. I don't know, bring it
Speaker 7: up and pass my thoughts on to her, because obviously
Speaker 7: she still believes her dad. And what would you say,
Speaker 7: what haven't you mummy? I mean no, I've just did
Speaker 7: never go there, and we were never encouraged to see
Speaker 7: her after Bromwin disappeared by John. John just shielded those
Speaker 7: kids and nobody saw them. And he's very private.
Speaker 1: I guess it's possible to look at that with an
Speaker 1: understanding that he doesn't want his children to be reminded
Speaker 1: by rumormongers.
Speaker 2: Sure.
Speaker 1: Now back to the nineteen ninety eight interview by Glenn
Speaker 1: Taylor of John Winfield.
Speaker 2: Okay, the next person just said was a lady called.
Speaker 6: Nolan, was it, Yeah, Debbie Nolan. Actually her name is
Speaker 6: really Debbie Hall. She's really my next door neighbor.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: Deb was one of the first people to contact me
Speaker 1: about doing a podcast investigation into Bromwin's suspected murder. You
Speaker 1: first heard her in the earliest episodes, and deb stays
Speaker 1: in touch, ringing and emailing me with information that she
Speaker 1: hears around the community of Lennox Head.
Speaker 2: And I thought, you know what, you've got to get
Speaker 2: away from this guy. If you call that miserable and
Speaker 2: he's controlling.
Speaker 8: And I did used to say to her from when,
Speaker 8: you know, when she'd had first crying sessions.
Speaker 2: About out here, and I say, Brown, you can't live
Speaker 2: like this. You've got to get away from him. Oh
Speaker 2: but I've got nowhere to go, and I'll have no
Speaker 2: money and never And that went on for a while.
Speaker 6: Apart from that, Oh wait a minute, there's another girl.
Speaker 6: I know someone spoke to her, but I can't even
Speaker 6: remember her second name. I know Graham spoke to her.
Speaker 1: The Graham that John is referring to is the then
Speaker 1: detective Sergeant Graham Disco and John was speaking about the
Speaker 1: woman that we are calling Joan. She has been concerned
Speaker 1: about her real name being published. The first time you
Speaker 1: heard her was in episode two. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: identify you by your name in this podcast, but your
Speaker 1: voice will be heard.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, are you okay with that?
Speaker 1: And I understand that you've got personal reasons? Where would
Speaker 1: you like to start talking about your friend Brongwa.
Speaker 6: She loves to kill so that there's no way she
Speaker 6: willingly go off and leave her kids.
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, We're going to move on a little bit now.
Speaker 2: Between nineteen ninety and say early nineteen ninety three, Yeah,
Speaker 2: what was happening in your family life?
Speaker 6: Oh well, we moved in the house in January nineteen ninety.
Speaker 2: My mother died.
Speaker 6: In September nineteen ninety, bronwin A was pregnant again. She
Speaker 6: had an abortion in I can't remember if that was
Speaker 6: ninety one or something, either ninety or ninety one, I
Speaker 6: just can't remember. I mean, we were going through a
Speaker 6: pretty tough time. I mean, like when mom died, I
Speaker 6: took it pretty tough, and sort of she got pregnant,
Speaker 6: which wasn't planned, and we decided, you know, we weren't
Speaker 6: going to have any more kids because at that stage,
Speaker 6: you know, we had three kids really living with us.
Speaker 2: We had my eldest.
Speaker 1: Daughter, Jody Glenn Taylor. Circled back to the abortion.
Speaker 2: How did you How did Bromin feel about that? I
Speaker 2: don't know. I sort of, like I said, my mom
Speaker 2: died that year.
Speaker 6: I was really close to my mom, and I was
Speaker 6: probably I don't know, I mean took it.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 6: See, mum died in September nineteen ninety. Yes, that was
Speaker 6: around about the time that she got pregnant. I think
Speaker 6: by memory, around about that time, alright, and it was
Speaker 6: just sort of too much for us to cope with.
Speaker 6: So we talked about it. We had three kids at
Speaker 6: that time and that was enough.
Speaker 2: Was there a point in time somewhere between say, Christmas
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety two in March from ninety three where
Speaker 2: your marriage started to deteriorate?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that's what's happened.
Speaker 6: That's what happened, you know, sort of sort of virtually
Speaker 6: as soon as Lauren got off to school, you know.
Speaker 2: Can you tell us about that all? Well? She reckons,
Speaker 2: she reckons.
Speaker 6: She told me just before we separated that she had
Speaker 6: a nervous breakdown in the in the January of nineteen
Speaker 6: ninety three. All right, and I said to her, you know,
Speaker 6: what's a nervous breakdown? I've heard of it, but can
Speaker 6: you tell me what it is? You know, I sort
Speaker 6: of didn't understand, but she reckoned. She had a nervous breakdown,
Speaker 6: and she went to see the doctor in Lennox. I
Speaker 6: don't know if it was doctor Watson or doctor Hughes.
Speaker 6: I don't know which one it was, but she went
Speaker 6: to one in Lennox and apparently she was being treated
Speaker 6: for depression, you know, like a nervous breakdown. Now, whether
Speaker 6: that's true or not, I don't know, but that's what
Speaker 6: she told me.
Speaker 2: You know, where did you have these discussions?
Speaker 6: You know what It's like you sort of round the
Speaker 6: house and you're sort of talking, and you know, what's
Speaker 6: going on with our marriage, that sort of this sort
Speaker 6: of stuff.
Speaker 2: Did this go over some weeks?
Speaker 6: Well, Lauren went off to school on what say, the
Speaker 6: first of February and ninety three, I think whatever day
Speaker 6: school started she started. Then she was still working in
Speaker 6: that job at the time, and virtually from that moment
Speaker 6: that was when she said to me, one of these days,
Speaker 6: I'm going to move out. I drove Lauren and Bronwin
Speaker 6: down to the school because I had a big day
Speaker 6: sort of starting up at school, and you know, things
Speaker 6: weren't sort of things were a bit funny, you know.
Speaker 2: I think I.
Speaker 6: Drove Lauren to school every day for the first week,
Speaker 6: you know, with her mum. And I can remember her
Speaker 6: going her mum walking to school with her and I said, gee,
Speaker 6: that took a long time, you know, because she was
Speaker 6: in therefore, it was probably fifteen minutes or so. And
Speaker 6: she said she came back and said, I just had
Speaker 6: to tell the teacher that we're separating.
Speaker 2: What did you feel about that?
Speaker 6: I was naturally surprised, you know, I mean, fair enough.
Speaker 6: I meant we weren't getting on particularly well. But I mean, geez,
Speaker 6: plenty of marriages go through funny times. I mean, we
Speaker 6: were never sort of fighting in front of the kids,
Speaker 6: sort of hitting each other or anything like that.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 6: See what what's been suggested to me, and I don't
Speaker 6: know whether it's right, is when she had this bit
Speaker 6: of a job she had, it was virtually the first
Speaker 6: job she really had where she had money to herself,
Speaker 6: because she kept all the money herself, you know, and
Speaker 6: she got that little bit of independence. You know, it's
Speaker 6: been suggested to me sort of went to her head
Speaker 6: with that little bit of independence. She had her own money,
Speaker 6: and sort of she was off, you know.
Speaker 1: The detective asked John whether Bromwin was taking any medication
Speaker 1: at the time.
Speaker 2: Well, that's like I said.
Speaker 6: She said to me that she'd been treated for a
Speaker 6: nervous breakdown in January nineteen ninety three by one of
Speaker 6: the doctors in Lenox, you know, but I never saw
Speaker 6: her take any medication.
Speaker 1: Later, Glenn Taylor would go to see the doctors Bromwin
Speaker 1: was known to have consulted, and nobody had any record
Speaker 1: or recollection of treatment of roman for a nervous breakdown.
Speaker 1: Brommin's brother Andy is adamant that he would have been
Speaker 1: told by his sister if she had suffered a mental
Speaker 1: or nervous breakdown. He is sure that John's claim is false.
Speaker 2: Leading up to this separation, what did she want you
Speaker 2: to do? Did she want you to sleep in another
Speaker 2: room or move out of the house.
Speaker 6: No, No, we slept No, I mean we've slept in
Speaker 6: the same bed. I mean it's sort of funny, like
Speaker 6: her moods would change on a daily basis. She's not
Speaker 6: what you'd call a bad tempered, sort of aggressive sort
Speaker 6: of person, but she's sort of pretty stubborn. I'm probably
Speaker 6: more the bad tempered one, you know. I shoot off
Speaker 6: a lot of steam. We were getting along fine, and
Speaker 6: then sort of she'd sort of say, all of a sudden,
Speaker 6: there's problems in our marriage again.
Speaker 2: I mean, I told Graham, Graham, you're talking about detective Sergeant.
Speaker 6: I told Graham, like when she was working in that shop,
Speaker 6: I told you about she'd been working with this bloke
Speaker 6: in there called.
Speaker 2: I don't know his name. All I know is.
Speaker 6: His name's Jacko, right, And apparently from what her girlfriends
Speaker 6: had told me that she'd sort of sort of fallen
Speaker 6: for this Jacko bloke, you know. And I think Graham
Speaker 6: contacted him at Barrera. I'm not one hundred percent, but
Speaker 6: I know someone told me his mother lives at Barrera
Speaker 6: in Sydney. So anyway, apparently while she was still living
Speaker 6: with me, she was all about, he's got a motorbike
Speaker 6: and he was picking her up and sort of taking
Speaker 6: her for rides up to Byron Bay and back on
Speaker 6: the motorbike.
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 2: But this is all I never saw it for myself.
Speaker 6: I mean, she'd actually told me that, you know, but
Speaker 6: that was while she was working in that shop, Eden's
Speaker 6: Takeaway and she was working with this jack guy.
Speaker 2: Did you ever see this Jacko? Yeah? I know him. Yeah.
Speaker 6: What did he look like a sort of tall guy
Speaker 6: with black curly hair, heavy sort of what was he
Speaker 6: doing for John?
Speaker 2: He was working in the takeaway shop, he was in
Speaker 2: the same place. Yeah, yeah, and he and you said
Speaker 2: he had a motor sockle.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, she told me they used to go riding
Speaker 6: up to Byron Bay and stuff.
Speaker 1: You know. In episode three, you heard Broman's brother Andy Reid,
Speaker 1: recalling John's agitation that his estranged wife was hanging out
Speaker 1: with Gary Jackson and had supposedly been seen on Jacko's motorbike.
Speaker 4: All of a sudden, John's ringing me, Oh, she's golla
Speaker 4: there and around town.
Speaker 2: She's in another relationship with some bloke. She's on the
Speaker 2: back of a motorbike. He was very flustered about that.
Speaker 4: He didn't handle that well because Bromwold remain say John's
Speaker 4: upparked up the road at Byron Street after the spot
Speaker 4: after John had rung and obviously there must have been
Speaker 4: some confrontation because had rung me to say I was
Speaker 4: accusing me of other relationship.
Speaker 1: My colleague and friend Dave Murray asked Jacko about this.
Speaker 2: Did you ride a motorbike back then? Gary? Yeah, I
Speaker 2: used to be a bike by that. Okay, do you
Speaker 2: remember if you ever gave Bromwin a lift on a motorbike?
Speaker 2: I'm going to give.
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor pressed John on whether Bromwin had money to
Speaker 1: herself A sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I never saw the account, But I actually think Graham
Speaker 6: was the one that told me about this.
Speaker 2: Excuse me. I think it was still in her maiden name.
Speaker 1: It was John's fourth familiar mention of Graham Graham discan.
Speaker 2: Okay, we'll just move on a little bit now. I
Speaker 2: think the records indicate that you separated some time in
Speaker 2: March of nineteen ninety three, formally separated. Yeah, yeah, Can
Speaker 2: you tell us about what happened, how the separation actually
Speaker 2: came about on the day. I know the basics, but.
Speaker 6: Okay, Well, she was living at she was living at
Speaker 6: Byron Street forty forty something. She suddenly decided to live
Speaker 6: out in the family house. Yeah, and she'd been living therefore.
Speaker 6: I honestly can't remember. Maybe maybe a couple months. I
Speaker 6: don't know, I can't remember. She moved out and took
Speaker 6: the kids with her, and I stayed in the house.
Speaker 2: So she moved out on her own accord. What did
Speaker 2: she take with her as.
Speaker 6: Much as she wanted. She virtually took as much as
Speaker 6: she wanted. What about furniture, Well, took lounges, I remember.
Speaker 6: I think she took the I know she took the
Speaker 6: bed because I was sleeping on the floor there on
Speaker 6: the single mattress.
Speaker 2: Virtually she took the lot.
Speaker 1: According to John, the move was a surprise. He said
Speaker 1: he was driving with Bromwin after dropping Lauren at school
Speaker 1: when she told him that she'd called a removalist.
Speaker 6: And then all of a sudden, these removalists turn up.
Speaker 6: I was told that morning that she was moving out.
Speaker 6: I gave her a check for the bond money because
Speaker 6: she didn't have any money, so she said, but oh,
Speaker 6: you know, I think it was for six or seven
Speaker 6: hundred bucks. I think I can't remember now, because apparently
Speaker 6: she told me she had no money. I couldn't stop her,
Speaker 6: you know, so the kids had to have a place
Speaker 6: to live, So I gave her money for the bond,
Speaker 6: and I made it out to the lady, the landlord
Speaker 6: down there, Shirley Taylor. But later on I found out
Speaker 6: that she did have money, because Graham told me she
Speaker 6: had a grand in the bank, loaded up and off
Speaker 6: she went.
Speaker 2: Was that fairly amicable, was it?
Speaker 6: I remember she told the kids the night before that
Speaker 6: she was going to move out, and I just sort
Speaker 6: of shrugged it off. I says, that's just one of
Speaker 6: her sort of you know statements again, you know. And
Speaker 6: then sure enough, like that morning I saw her, she said,
Speaker 6: the removaluss is coming at two o'clock.
Speaker 1: John wasn't working as a bricklayer when Bromwin told him
Speaker 1: she was leaving him. He had injured his neck in
Speaker 1: January nineteen ninety three. John told the detective that his
Speaker 1: neck was in a brace for almost ten weeks.
Speaker 2: After she moved out to the flat in Byron Street.
Speaker 2: How long did you stay in the house in Sandstein
Speaker 2: Crescent before you went to Sydney. Oh.
Speaker 6: I went to Sydney virtually just to work, just a
Speaker 6: change of environment. I might have been there from either
Speaker 6: two to four weeks. I really can't remember. I'd have
Speaker 6: to look it up.
Speaker 1: It is not clear from the interview whether John's comment
Speaker 1: about having been there for two to four weeks is
Speaker 1: a reference to how long he stayed alone at Sandstone
Speaker 1: Crescent after Bromin had moved out in late March, or
Speaker 1: whether it is a reference to how long he stayed
Speaker 1: in Sydney while working for Glenn Webster on the build
Speaker 1: of his house in Illawong in the Shire. In Glenn
Speaker 1: Webster's statement to police, he specifically recalls working with John
Speaker 1: on the Anzac Day public holiday in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 2: April twenty five.
Speaker 1: He confirmed that his return to the house on the
Speaker 1: Sunday night in May was his first visit back from Sydney.
Speaker 2: So you lived with Sydney to work, Yeah, to work,
Speaker 2: and then the next contact you had with your wife
Speaker 2: would have been the night she the night she actually
Speaker 2: jumped in the car. Yeah, that's it when missing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: well did you communicate with your wife just say that
Speaker 2: you were coming back up to Lennox Head follow.
Speaker 6: I had occasionally had phone calls. I remember one particular
Speaker 6: phone call you. I used to ring her occasionally. I
Speaker 6: don't remember if it was once a week or once
Speaker 6: every two weeks. At that stage she was after me
Speaker 6: to put some sort of one hundred and twenty five
Speaker 6: bucks or something a month into Lauren's account, which I
Speaker 6: was sort of negotiating with her to do like a
Speaker 6: child support sort of thing.
Speaker 1: John recalled a conversation he had on the telephone with
Speaker 1: Bromwin when she was living in the flat on Byron
Speaker 1: Street and she had a visitor, her good friend and
Speaker 1: former neighbor, deb Hall.
Speaker 6: This Debbie, Debbie Hall at the time, was visiting her
Speaker 6: just for a cup of tea or something, you know,
Speaker 6: and all of a sudden, she just exploded at me
Speaker 6: on the phone, you know, sort of went off for
Speaker 6: no reason, just to sort of make some sort of
Speaker 6: make me out to be, you know, a monster to
Speaker 6: this Debbie. You know, because this Debbie mentioned to me,
Speaker 6: you know, I don't know why she went off at
Speaker 6: you on the phone that day, because there's no reason too.
Speaker 6: And then later on they had lunch together and apparently
Speaker 6: she said to Debbie Hall something about being a really
Speaker 6: good actress or something.
Speaker 2: This was how long before the sixteenth of May.
Speaker 6: I was still in Sydney, I don't know. Could have
Speaker 6: been two weeks before, could have been a month before.
Speaker 6: I used to ring up from time to time just
Speaker 6: to see how the kids were and stuff.
Speaker 2: Whilst you were in Sydney. Yeah. And when you were
Speaker 2: communicating with her, did she give you any demands of
Speaker 2: that propertysettlement? No, not at all. Anything about going that
Speaker 2: she wanted to move back into the family home.
Speaker 6: No, No, I never said anything about it at all.
Speaker 6: That's why it was such a shock when all of
Speaker 6: a sudden she rang well, I rang her up.
Speaker 9: And.
Speaker 6: She'd moved out of wherever she was at forty two
Speaker 6: and she was back in the fair home. You know,
Speaker 6: I think it was the sixteenth. It was a Saturday
Speaker 6: or Sunday, wasn't it? Because I came back on the
Speaker 6: Sunday and she left on the Sunday night about midnight.
Speaker 2: Is that right?
Speaker 1: There are some interesting disclosures in this answer from John.
Speaker 1: He was He says shocked that Bromwin had moved back
Speaker 1: into the family home, but it seems he was not
Speaker 1: shocked when she moved straight back out again, and his
Speaker 1: timing is off too. He is saying that she left
Speaker 1: on the Sunday night about midnight. Previously, however, he told
Speaker 1: Detective Discan and Bromwin's friends and family that it was
Speaker 1: about nine nine thirty pm.
Speaker 2: Up to that point. Had you been contacted by a
Speaker 2: solicitor or had any documents served upon you? No about
Speaker 2: family law?
Speaker 6: No, no, just let me think. Well, she didn't know
Speaker 6: my address in Sydney, so I couldn't have had any
Speaker 6: Now I'm sure I didn't.
Speaker 2: Are you aware that she was in contact with a
Speaker 2: within he solicitous.
Speaker 6: Well only through what Graham told me. Graham told me
Speaker 6: that she'd spoken to a guy in Ballina, Tony Manering,
Speaker 6: and I think she'd spoken to a guy Byron Bay
Speaker 6: called I can't remember his name now. And later I
Speaker 6: found out that she's spoken to and I told Graham this.
Speaker 6: I found out from a neighbor of mine that she'd
Speaker 6: spoken to a guy from Mulin Bimbi or Ocean Shaw's Way.
Speaker 1: The solicitors to whom John is referring to here, Tony
Speaker 1: Mannering and Graham Holland, were consulted by Bromman about her
Speaker 1: legal rights, but in the end she decided to retain
Speaker 1: Chris mcdebittt, who was based in Lismore. And you've previously
Speaker 1: heard that Broman telephoned Chris mcdebott at his home on
Speaker 1: the Sunday afternoon because of her concern about John's imminent
Speaker 1: arrival at the house. Romman had made an appointment to
Speaker 1: see Chris mcdebitt in his Lismore office on the Monday
Speaker 1: morning for further legal advice, but she neither canceled nor
Speaker 1: turned up, and he never heard from her again. In
Speaker 1: my view, this was one of the most concerning and
Speaker 1: early signs of possible foul play, and Graham Diskin knew
Speaker 1: about it within a couple of weeks of Roman's disappearance,
Speaker 1: but no statement was taken from the solicitor or anyone
Speaker 1: back in nineteen ninety three. There is another striking feature
Speaker 1: for police. John really should have been a person of
Speaker 1: interest in his estranged wife's disappearance at a very early stage. Instead,
Speaker 1: it is as if John has the inside running on
Speaker 1: the police investigation. By the detectives in nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 1: John had gleaned a lot of potentially significant information, and
Speaker 1: he said he was told all of it by Graham Discan,
Speaker 1: Broman's bank account balance, Bromman's legal representation, including Tony Mannering,
Speaker 1: and chrismcdebitt. Broman's telephone call to chrismcdebitt on the Sunday afternoon.
Speaker 1: They're just some of the things that John volunteered. He
Speaker 1: had been told by Graham discin. Sometimes detectives deliberately share
Speaker 1: information with a person of interest or plant information for
Speaker 1: the suspect to find. And it's a good strategy as
Speaker 1: it can prompt panicky reactions and conversations when telephones are
Speaker 1: being bugged and listening devices are in houses and cars.
Speaker 1: But none of that was occurring with John in nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety three. Police were unaware while they were sharing key
Speaker 1: intelligence from their own investigation that the person soaking it
Speaker 1: up might have been the killer.
Speaker 2: For detectives seen you comfortable.
Speaker 1: Wayne Temby, who was in the interview room at Ballina
Speaker 1: Police station with Glenn Taylor in nineteen ninety eight, parts
Speaker 1: of this must have felt like deja vous. It would
Speaker 1: be interesting to know now how Temby, who is long retired,
Speaker 1: reflects on the first and the second police investigation. He
Speaker 1: has declined to comment for this podcast series. As Glen
Speaker 1: Taylor took a breather, Detective Temby chimed in, how did
Speaker 1: you become aware when you were in Sydney that she
Speaker 1: moved out of the flat?
Speaker 6: I rang up and she wasn't there? So I rang
Speaker 6: the family home, all right, and she answered the phone,
Speaker 6: and that was what a few days before. You come
Speaker 6: up on the day before, I think the day before,
Speaker 6: I see, And what did you say to her? Oh,
Speaker 6: I can't remember. I said, just surprise she was back
Speaker 6: in the family home. You know, I just sort of
Speaker 6: shut up to see what was going on. I mean,
Speaker 6: she had keys. She always had a key to the
Speaker 6: family home anyway, you know. I mean she, her and
Speaker 6: I were the only two people bar my father, are
Speaker 6: the only ones who have got a key to the
Speaker 6: family home.
Speaker 2: Actually the house is deadlocked.
Speaker 6: Actually, I think I put a deadlock, and I think
Speaker 6: from memory she got a locksmith in to get rid
Speaker 6: of the deadlock.
Speaker 2: I think from memory.
Speaker 1: You heard from Bromwin's neighbors, Chris and Lloyd Hargrave about it.
Speaker 1: In episode three.
Speaker 10: She called out to me from our yard on her
Speaker 10: side of the house. When I approached Bromwin, she asked
Speaker 10: me if I had a key, and I told her
Speaker 10: I didn't. She said that she couldn't get into the
Speaker 10: house because John had changed all the locks. She was
Speaker 10: very upset and crying and said that John had threatened
Speaker 10: to take the children from her. The same as he
Speaker 10: he had done to his first wife and taken Jodie
Speaker 10: from her.
Speaker 11: Bromman said that she was unable to get into the
Speaker 11: house and she appeared to be very upset at the time.
Speaker 11: It was at this time that Bronman told Chris and
Speaker 11: I that Jonathan Winfield had threatened that he was going
Speaker 11: to take the children from her. It was not long
Speaker 11: after this that the locksmith arrived, and I'm aware that
Speaker 11: Bronman moved back into the house.
Speaker 1: Bromwin's neighbors were interviewed by Glenn Taylor on September twelve,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, five weeks after John's interview.
Speaker 2: When you made a rageous to come back up on
Speaker 2: the sixth Street of May, Yeah, Had you communicated to
Speaker 2: her that you were coming? Had you told her? I
Speaker 2: might have said, yeah, I'm coming home, Yeah, something like that.
Speaker 1: John confirmed that Bromwin had kept control of the family
Speaker 1: car while he was away in Sydney until the Sunday night,
Speaker 1: and she disappeared and he left in the Ford Falcon
Speaker 1: with the girls. Glenn Taylor quiz John about his arrival
Speaker 1: into Banana on that fateful night.
Speaker 2: He was dark.
Speaker 6: I don't know six o'clock, say, I came straight here
Speaker 6: to the police station. See what was your intention to
Speaker 6: come to the police station, because I was going back
Speaker 6: there I saw it. Didn't want any shit. I just
Speaker 6: wanted to cover myself.
Speaker 2: Really.
Speaker 6: I told the guy downstairs what had happened. I, you know,
Speaker 6: a family breakup, all this sort of business. She moved out,
Speaker 6: she moved back into the family home. I'm just going
Speaker 6: to go back there now. And you know, it was
Speaker 6: just sort of like I didn't want her ringing up
Speaker 6: and saying, you know, he's here bashing me, sort of
Speaker 6: stuff like that, you know, So I sort of came
Speaker 6: to the police first. I told him what I was
Speaker 6: going to do, and he said, okay. I saw him
Speaker 6: take a note of it and went.
Speaker 2: Had there been any complaints no from your wife about
Speaker 2: physical contact between yourself and her up to that point? No?
Speaker 6: No, Look, the law is always on the side of
Speaker 6: the woman, isn't it. Really, So I just sort of
Speaker 6: covered myself. I thought, well, when I come up, I thought, well,
Speaker 6: you know, I don't want to sort of go in
Speaker 6: there and sort of her start screaming and stuff like that.
Speaker 6: So I didn't know what I was going to expect.
Speaker 6: When I got there, because you know, I just didn't know.
Speaker 6: So I just came in and saw the desk sergeant downstairs,
Speaker 6: and I can't remember what his name was actually, but
Speaker 6: I spoke to him for probably fifteen minutes, you know,
Speaker 6: and I told him the story and I told him
Speaker 6: where I was going, and that was it.
Speaker 1: In the police internal running sheet which logged events in
Speaker 1: the nineteen ninety three investigation by Graham Diskin, there is
Speaker 1: an entry and it was made by the then Constable
Speaker 1: Julie Donovan. The entry states that on May thirty of
Speaker 1: that year, Constable Donovan.
Speaker 10: Verified from Sergeant heart To that conversation did take place
Speaker 10: in relation to rights of moving back into house.
Speaker 1: John described the arrangements that were made for his return
Speaker 1: to Lenox. There was the telephone call to get a
Speaker 1: lift from the airport with John Watson, the father of
Speaker 1: a girl called Natalie, one of Jody's friends when they
Speaker 1: were at school together.
Speaker 6: I think I rang him, or Jody might have rung
Speaker 6: him and said can you pick that up at the airport?
Speaker 6: Because I came back with a surfboard, see at a
Speaker 6: bit of Love. Everything I took to Sydney, I brought
Speaker 6: virtually brought back with me, you.
Speaker 1: Know, And that's another interesting disclosure. In my view, it
Speaker 1: strongly suggests that John Winfield was intending to stay in
Speaker 1: Lennox for a while. There's no indication in that answer
Speaker 1: that he intended to leave again that same night to
Speaker 1: drive all the way back to Sydney. John described the
Speaker 1: short drive on Sunday evening to the house of Becky Maguire,
Speaker 1: another of Jodie's friends from school.
Speaker 6: Because I remember the sergeant downstairs said, you know, you're
Speaker 6: better off to have someone with you.
Speaker 2: Did you say one of Jade's friends.
Speaker 6: Yeah, one of JD's friends, Becky, who's Jody, Jadie's my daughter.
Speaker 1: I just want to pause to make another point here.
Speaker 1: While being cross examined by senior lawyers during trial proceedings
Speaker 1: over the murder of Christal's AND's wife, Lynn, I realized
Speaker 1: that my questioners didn't know some things which in my view,
Speaker 1: they ought to have been aware of before asking me.
Speaker 1: It won't be true for everyone, but I grew in
Speaker 1: confidence in the witness box when my question has made
Speaker 1: an error or demonstrated that they were not across some
Speaker 1: of the more obvious details. Now, it might have been
Speaker 1: a deliberate play by Glen Taylor asking the person of
Speaker 1: interest who is Jody? And it's possible the season detective
Speaker 1: wanted John to think that the cops knew little when
Speaker 1: they were really lulling John into a false sense of security.
Speaker 1: If it wasn't deliberate, if Glen Taylor did not know
Speaker 1: where Jody fitted into the picture in that first interview,
Speaker 1: then in my view, it's not best practice.
Speaker 6: Jody's my daughter, right, but she's been out of the
Speaker 6: family home for years now.
Speaker 2: So you arrived at the only can you tell us
Speaker 2: what happened when you were right?
Speaker 6: Yeah, Well, Becky came to the door with me and
Speaker 6: we knocked on the door and then and the door opened.
Speaker 2: So once the door was open, I walked in.
Speaker 1: John repeated the advice that he said he received five
Speaker 1: years earlier from the police sergeant on the front desk
Speaker 1: of the same police station in which he was sitting
Speaker 1: opposite Glenn Taylor and Wayne Temby.
Speaker 6: Don't sort of barge in, knock on the door and
Speaker 6: sort of walk into the family home. Don't break into
Speaker 6: the family home. That's what he said to me. So
Speaker 6: I took his advice.
Speaker 2: Did bron win in for the door.
Speaker 6: Yeah, came straight to the door, opened the door and
Speaker 6: I walked straight in. So once I was right in
Speaker 6: the door, I said, oh, thanks, beck see you later,
Speaker 6: and she just off she went.
Speaker 1: There is a discrepancy here. Becky Maguire had to get
Speaker 1: home from Sandstone Crescent. She had been picked up at
Speaker 1: her house by John Watson and John Winfield after they
Speaker 1: left the police station. Becky's statement to police, which was
Speaker 1: taken five weeks after John's interview, is rich with detail.
Speaker 1: This is what Becky said happened from the time John
Speaker 1: Watson stopped outside the house in Sandstone Crescent to let
Speaker 1: John Winfield and Becky get out of the car.
Speaker 12: John Watson drove away. We walked up to the front
Speaker 12: of the house and John knocked on the door. The
Speaker 12: door opened and Bronwyn and the children were standing at
Speaker 12: the door. I can't recall what she was going on about.
Speaker 12: She used to babble on all the time. Bronwin walked
Speaker 12: back into the house towards the kitchen, and John gave
Speaker 12: the girls a cuddle, and I saw that Lauren was crying.
Speaker 12: I saw two suitcases inside the doorway, and John picked
Speaker 12: them up and put them in the car. John must
Speaker 12: have had a set of keys to the car, because
Speaker 12: we then got into the car and he drove me home.
Speaker 12: I remember both Crystal and Lauren were standing at the
Speaker 12: window inside the house watching as we reversed out of
Speaker 12: the driveway. John didn't go inside the house at all
Speaker 12: while I was in the house with him.
Speaker 2: Well, we were driving back to my house.
Speaker 12: John thanked me for coming with him and told me
Speaker 12: he was sorry for getting me involved.
Speaker 1: Perhaps John Winfield forgot that he drove Becky home. John
Speaker 1: Watson's statement makes it clear that he drove away alone,
Speaker 1: without Becky or John Winfield.
Speaker 2: So Rowin invited you in to come in.
Speaker 6: She didn't say come in. I just walked in. But
Speaker 6: there was no objection, no objection at all. I mean
Speaker 6: both the kids came and gave me a hug straight away.
Speaker 6: Becky just stood at the front door. I just said, oh,
Speaker 6: thanks beck and John Watson he drove Becky home.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, yeah, John was waiting out the front. I
Speaker 2: know it's a long time ago, but do you have
Speaker 2: any recollection what bronwin was wearing?
Speaker 6: I told Graham, but gee, I can't remember. I know,
Speaker 6: I think I remember saying to him that she was
Speaker 6: wearing the same clothes that she was wearing at work
Speaker 6: that day. Right, had all the furniture that she'd taken before, Yeah,
Speaker 6: being moved back in there. Yeah everything, not everything, A
Speaker 6: lot a lot of it, probably ninety percent. I suppose
Speaker 6: the rest was it was still down at the unit. Right,
Speaker 6: She left it in the unit, and the landlord had
Speaker 6: moved it out of the unit and put it put
Speaker 6: in a garage for storage, Right, I see. And then
Speaker 6: I had to go down and get it after a
Speaker 6: while because she wouldn't give it to me. But then
Speaker 6: after a while she gave it to me because there
Speaker 6: was still rent going on the place.
Speaker 2: You know. Okay, what happened? Can you take us through?
Speaker 4: Now?
Speaker 2: What happened from the time you arrived over the next
Speaker 2: few hours, John described having sat down in the dining
Speaker 2: room with a cup of tea. He said, Lauren was
Speaker 2: sitting happily on his lap. She hadn't seen her dad
Speaker 2: for weeks. That was virtually it.
Speaker 6: And then by that time it must have been it
Speaker 6: was after dinner because the kids at eden.
Speaker 2: What was your wife, Demanda like, sorry, what was she like?
Speaker 2: What was her attitude to you?
Speaker 6: I don't know. We didn't talk that much. I suppose
Speaker 6: she was surprised that I sort of was there, you
Speaker 6: know that I rang up the day before from Sydney
Speaker 6: and then all of a sudden I was on the doorstep,
Speaker 6: you know. So I suppose she was a bit taken aback,
Speaker 6: But I mean she didn't really let on that she
Speaker 6: was taken aback. I mean, she wasn't hostile or anything
Speaker 6: like that.
Speaker 1: John's interview is nearing the halfway mark, and we're going
Speaker 1: to unpack more of it in the next episode. There
Speaker 1: are some significant loose ends. Here's Glen Taylor describing for
Speaker 1: the podcast how he first became involved in the case.
Speaker 2: I was totally unaware of this matter.
Speaker 9: Range Andrew Reid and his wife Michelle approached us in
Speaker 9: nineteen ninety eight, said look, it's it possible to have
Speaker 9: fresh eyes, because that had absolutely nothing since that July
Speaker 9: or August of nineteen ninety three, nothing had been done,
Speaker 9: had been no further developers.
Speaker 2: I was a palled that so little had been going
Speaker 2: back in ninety ninety three, there was saying any red flags.
Speaker 2: Say very early on, it's not all just about conviction.
Speaker 2: It's the family and the children knowing what did actually
Speaker 2: happen to Bromwin? Where is she?
Speaker 1: Glen Taylor's investigation spanned two and a half years and
Speaker 1: culminated in an inquest in the nearby town of Lismore
Speaker 1: in two thousand and two, and Glenn retired from the
Speaker 1: police around this time. What do you try to project
Speaker 1: in terms of your own tone and approach?
Speaker 2: Well, we still have to maintain a rapport with the person.
Speaker 2: You cannot get if you weigh verbally aggressive or directly
Speaker 2: put allegations did you murder her wrong in the house
Speaker 2: that night? We need to get more information from him
Speaker 2: at the time, so we're not going to try to
Speaker 2: get directly offside. But when, because we just were still
Speaker 2: gathering information and it should have led to at least
Speaker 2: a frenzy examination of the home and the.
Speaker 1: Car, do you think you build a rapport with Grothan?
Speaker 2: I certainly had a report. We were still in a
Speaker 2: fact finding situation where were still interviewing thereous people. We
Speaker 2: wanted to get our record because it never been formally
Speaker 2: put on record before. What is something occurred? So we
Speaker 2: certainly had many things to ask.
Speaker 1: You heard Glenn Taylor refer to a lack of any
Speaker 1: forensic examination five years earlier. In the initial police investigation,
Speaker 1: I asked doctor Kirsty Wright to look at some of
Speaker 1: the key documents from Romlan's case. But first a disclosure,
Speaker 1: I am completely biased about Kirsty and her professionalism and character.
Speaker 1: She is a truly incredible forensic biologist, precise, persistent and
Speaker 1: intellectually brilliant. Her work over two decades has solved numerous crimes,
Speaker 1: and Kirsty has also helped identify the remains of many
Speaker 1: victims of foul play and natural disaster in Australia and overseas. Kursey,
Speaker 1: You've been looking at Romwin Winfield's case based on police
Speaker 1: files and other documents that have provided. In nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 1: there was no forensic examination of the house where rollin
Speaker 1: was like seeing live, or of the family car. What,
Speaker 1: in your opinion, could have should have been done at
Speaker 1: the time.
Speaker 8: The first thing they would do is identify what we
Speaker 8: call primary and secondary crime scenes. A primary crime scene
Speaker 8: could be the Winfield house or it could also be
Speaker 8: Bronwin's flat at Lennox Head. It's very important when you
Speaker 8: do a criminal investigation that you look at the possibilities
Speaker 8: that it is a missing person that supports the suspects
Speaker 8: version of events, or you look for the possibility of
Speaker 8: foul play as well, so both scenarios need to be investigated.
Speaker 8: Possible secondary crime scene could be the wind Field vehicle.
Speaker 8: All of those locations should have been quarantined and forensically
Speaker 8: examined as soon as possible.
Speaker 1: Now, Madison Walsh is here and she's just finished a
Speaker 1: degree in physic science majoring in crime scene investigation.
Speaker 13: How long would it have been biable after Brienwin disappeared
Speaker 13: before it was a loss cause?
Speaker 8: Ideally, with a crime scene, you want to seal it
Speaker 8: off as quickly as possible, and that preserves any evidence
Speaker 8: that may be there. It preserves any evidence being lost
Speaker 8: or contaminated or removed. Ideally, want that crime scene to
Speaker 8: be in a state as close as possible to the
Speaker 8: suspicious event. Now saying that, there are some forensic evidence
Speaker 8: that can remain after an event or even after a cleanup,
Speaker 8: So there could be signs of a struggle, damage to
Speaker 8: the property, there could be items that could contain biological evidence,
Speaker 8: and also urination and defecation is a symptom of strangulation,
Speaker 8: so they'd be looking for any signs of those kinds
Speaker 8: of biological material that are out of context. If somebody
Speaker 8: lives in their own home, they're going to have their own.
Speaker 2: Biological material there.
Speaker 8: But what they're really looking for is something that out
Speaker 8: of place, something that could indicate a struggle, or something
Speaker 8: that could indicate something much more sinister has occurred.
Speaker 1: In my podcast Shandy Story, doctor Kirsty Wright exposed the
Speaker 1: unforgivable failure of the Queensland Government's DNA testing laboratory to
Speaker 1: properly test tens of thousands of samples from crime scenes
Speaker 1: going back many years. Kirsty's extraordinary findings and her courage
Speaker 1: in that podcast series and in the subsequent Shandy's Legacy
Speaker 1: series have triggered major public inquiries and huge reforms. Her
Speaker 1: work is having a profoundly positive and enduring impact for
Speaker 1: many victims of crime, victims of rapes and murders who
Speaker 1: previously had little to no chance of justice because the
Speaker 1: DNA lab was failing to detect DNA when it was
Speaker 1: right there in minute quantities in the crime scene samples.
Speaker 1: Cherse did that there circumstances of this case as they
Speaker 1: presented at the time to police, in your opinion, demand
Speaker 1: a proper forensic examination.
Speaker 2: Oh, I believe so absolutely.
Speaker 8: We've got a young woman, a mother of two that's suddenly,
Speaker 8: very suddenly, in unexplained circumstances, has left that should have
Speaker 8: been treated with suspicion.
Speaker 13: Do you think that there could's been a different outcome
Speaker 13: to this case had there been forensic examination immediately after
Speaker 13: Brownwin disappeared, Well.
Speaker 2: We simply don't know, Madison.
Speaker 8: It's definitely a lost opportunity to recover what could be
Speaker 8: valuable evidence. Sometimes if a homicide is suspected, it could
Speaker 8: just be one single drop of blood or one item
Speaker 8: that could point to suspicious circumstances and could identify the offender.
Speaker 8: By the delay in the police investigating this and the
Speaker 8: fact that there was no suitable forensic examination of those
Speaker 8: three areas that I just explained, means that there was
Speaker 8: a lost opportunities.
Speaker 2: We're going back a long time, though, thirty one years.
Speaker 1: What technology existed at that time compared with now, for example,
Speaker 1: DNA analysis and other techniques of trying to discover evidence
Speaker 1: where they at a level, at a standard and being
Speaker 1: used at that time such that they could have been useful.
Speaker 8: Absolutely, forensic science in nineteen ninety three is definitely a
Speaker 8: lot different to what we can do with it now
Speaker 8: in twenty twenty four, but there was still the ability
Speaker 8: to identify somebody with DNA evidence. In fact, convictions were
Speaker 8: being made in Australia as far back as nineteen eighty
Speaker 8: eight with DNA evidence. There's also fingerprint examination, there was
Speaker 8: the location of biological material using luminol testing POLYLTE. It's
Speaker 8: the context in which they're found which is informative. So
Speaker 8: simply finding Bronwinner's blood or biological material or finding her
Speaker 8: fingerprints may be of no value unless there's actual context
Speaker 8: to that.
Speaker 2: Well, no value if it's found in the house.
Speaker 1: But part of the police case is that Bromlin's body
Speaker 1: must have been concealed in the vehicle. So if for example,
Speaker 1: Bromin's biological material had been found in the boot of
Speaker 1: the vehicle, if that vehicle had been examine and of
Speaker 1: course this is all hypothetical. John has strenuously denied any involvement,
Speaker 1: and he was the one who drove the car, would
Speaker 1: that have been sufficient to make a.
Speaker 8: Difference identifying blood in unusual locations Unusual locations which may
Speaker 8: be consistent with transporting somebody's body from point A to
Speaker 8: point b absolutely should have been one of the poority
Speaker 8: areas that the police should have investigated. The other thing
Speaker 8: the police should have done is a forensic examination of
Speaker 8: Jonathan Winfield. Would have been too late to get fingerinyl
Speaker 8: scrapings from him, obviously looking for any sign of Bronwin's
Speaker 8: DNA under his fingern ls, but they could have identified
Speaker 8: whether there was any unusual or unexplained injuries on his body.
Speaker 8: They should have seized Jonathan's clothing, the clothing that he
Speaker 8: wore on the night that Bronwinn disappeared, to look for
Speaker 8: any biological evidence on the clothing or look for any
Speaker 8: signs of damage on the clothing which could be unexplained.
Speaker 1: In your professional opinion, Kirsty, having read now about this
Speaker 1: case based on the official documentation, and having read into
Speaker 1: lots of other cases, what do you say about the
Speaker 1: failure in nineteen ninety three to do any forensic examination
Speaker 1: of house or car given the circumstances of a woman
Speaker 1: who has inexplicably disappeared from her home, her family, her children.
Speaker 8: I think it's unacceptable Pedley, even in nineteen ninety three
Speaker 8: to not forensically examine those locations. Let's balance it out.
Speaker 8: There's two sides to this. Where there's been opportunities lost,
Speaker 8: there's also a lost opportunity to find evidence that could
Speaker 8: support Jonathan Winfield's version of events as well.
Speaker 1: Is it surprising, knowing what existed back in nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 1: that these things were not done? Oh?
Speaker 8: Absolutely, there were forensic tools there. It's a mother of
Speaker 8: two children suddenly disappears, is never heard from again. There
Speaker 8: are some suspicious circumstances with the movement of her partner.
Speaker 8: It just seems incredible to me that this case wasn't
Speaker 8: properly investigated.
Speaker 2: You were shocked at that, Oh, absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 8: Even though there was a small delay in reporting Bronwin's disappearance,
Speaker 8: there was still more than enough opportunity for the house,
Speaker 8: the car, and Bronwin's flat to be investigated. Really sad
Speaker 8: for Bronwyn and very sad for her family that they
Speaker 8: never got the answers that they deserve if the police
Speaker 8: had of properly conducted a forensic investigation, and Headley, all
Speaker 8: these years later, they're obviously still searching for those answers.
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as
Speaker 1: a podcast production for the Australian. If anyone has information
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bromwyn
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen and Matthew Condon and David Murray.
Speaker 1: Audio production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio
Speaker 1: and original theme music by Slade Gibson. We have been
Speaker 1: assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation of Bromwin Winfield. We
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