Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course
Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to
Speaker 1: you by Me Headley Thomas and The Australian from John
Speaker 1: and Bromman's old house on the hillside in Lennox Head.
Speaker 1: It is a fifteen minute drive to the nearest police
Speaker 1: station in the town of Ballina. The coast Road is
Speaker 1: the picturesque route south, passing John's favorite surfing beaches of
Speaker 1: boulders and sharps. Heading west for a bridge crossing at
Speaker 1: North Creek, John pulled up at River Street, so called
Speaker 1: because of the Mighty Richmond River, a stone's throw from
Speaker 1: the police building.
Speaker 2: He got here on a.
Speaker 1: Wednesday morning in August nineteen ninety eight to be interviewed
Speaker 1: by Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor about the disappearance of Bromwin
Speaker 1: five years and three months earlier. The videotape of that
Speaker 1: interview remains under lock and key with New South Wales Police.
Speaker 1: Bromwin's sister Kim Marshall, retrieved the official transcript of the
Speaker 1: entire conversation for me. It is vitally important as a
Speaker 1: record of the one and only time John Winfield's version
Speaker 1: of events. His side of the story has been properly
Speaker 1: documented by a senior police detective. Prior to August five,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight. His side of the story was known
Speaker 1: to many, but they'd heard it from others too, so
Speaker 1: there was both direct and hearsay knowledge. There were John's
Speaker 1: versions of his trip back to Lennox Head on the
Speaker 1: night of Sunday, May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three, his conversations
Speaker 1: with Bromwyn and the two girls in the house at
Speaker 1: Sandstone Crescent before they were put to bed, His story
Speaker 1: about Bromwyn having said she wanted a break from the
Speaker 1: children for a few days. The phone calls, he says
Speaker 1: Bromwyn made from the bedroom that night. The car, he
Speaker 1: says he heard, pull up outside the house on Sandstone
Speaker 1: Crescent soon afterwards to collect her, his explanation for his hasty.
Speaker 2: Departure from the house that night.
Speaker 1: Then a drive of ten hours or so south on
Speaker 1: the Old Pacific Highway with Crystal and Lauren and the
Speaker 1: pet dog until their arrival the next morning in Sydney.
Speaker 1: All of these things were known to Bromwan's friends and family,
Speaker 1: but they were told and retold in dribs and drabs
Speaker 1: important facts were not known at all. For example, John's
Speaker 1: sudden arrival at his former wife's home in the Southerland
Speaker 1: shire of Sydney on the morning of the drive from
Speaker 1: Lennox Head, and the plea he made to that woman's
Speaker 1: mother in law, whom he had never met, to look
Speaker 1: after the girls. As John said, he had an important
Speaker 1: job to do.
Speaker 3: My daughter in law, Jenny was out and I was
Speaker 3: not sure where Brad was.
Speaker 1: In episode four, a voice actor for Joan Mason read
Speaker 1: parts of her police statement.
Speaker 3: I answered the door and I saw a man who
Speaker 3: introduced himself as Winfield. I don't remember his first name,
Speaker 3: but I recalled. He told me that he had been
Speaker 3: Jenny's first husband. I saw that he had two young
Speaker 3: girls with him. I remember both these young girls were
Speaker 3: dressed in pajamas.
Speaker 2: I remember this man.
Speaker 3: Winfield asked me could he leave the two girls. He
Speaker 3: was in Sydney to do a big job. He said
Speaker 3: something about being in the building game and he had
Speaker 3: to go and see someone about a job. He said
Speaker 3: that he had been driving all night. He said he
Speaker 3: needed to leave the children with someone. I recall telling
Speaker 3: him that he could leave the kids there and I
Speaker 3: would tell Jenny when she came home. He left the
Speaker 3: children with me and I looked after them until Jenny
Speaker 3: arrived back home.
Speaker 1: Those details would only come to light in the weeks
Speaker 1: after John's interview at the Ballana Police Station on August five,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, as Detective Sergeant Glen Taylor tracked down
Speaker 1: more and more people to talk to. Andy Reid's wife,
Speaker 1: Michelle had made notes on different pieces of paper over
Speaker 1: the five years, notes of what she had been told
Speaker 1: by John and what she had been told by others
Speaker 1: who talked to John, But nobody had written all of
Speaker 1: John's words down until Glenn Taylor asked John to come
Speaker 1: to the police station four normal interview.
Speaker 4: The interview has commenced at age fifty two am. For
Speaker 4: the purpose of the tape record, Can everyone present state
Speaker 4: their full name?
Speaker 2: Arm Detective Sergeant Glenn William Taylor.
Speaker 1: Detective Senior Constable Wayne Temby introduced himself, and John followed.
Speaker 2: Suit Jonathan Winfield.
Speaker 1: The name Wayne Temby will be familiar to listeners back
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety three, when it was the detective Sergeant
Speaker 1: Graham Diskins's job to investigate Bromman's disappearance. Wayne Temby was
Speaker 1: a more junior officer on the case. He answered to Discan.
Speaker 1: The two investigations Detective Discins then Detective Taylor's, were starkly different.
Speaker 1: Whereas no statements were taken from anyone in nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 1: when Discin was running the investigation, Glenn Taylor was determined
Speaker 1: to interview as many people as he could find, get
Speaker 1: their statements on the record, and put them into a
Speaker 1: brief of evidence.
Speaker 4: Do you agree, mister Winfield, that there are no other
Speaker 4: persons present in the interview room other than the people
Speaker 4: that have just introduced themselves?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 5: I do.
Speaker 4: And do you agree that the only door to this
Speaker 4: interview room is directly to your left, which is in
Speaker 4: a closed position. Now, yeah, mister Winfield. As I've already
Speaker 4: explained to you, Detective Temby and I are making inquiries
Speaker 4: in relation to the disappearance of your wife, Browan Joey
Speaker 4: Winfield on or about the sixteenth of May nineteen ninety
Speaker 4: three from Lennix Head. We're going to ask you some
Speaker 4: further questions about this matter. These questions and any answers
Speaker 4: that you care to give to those questions will be
Speaker 4: recorded electronically, both on video and audio. Cassette tapes as
Speaker 4: the interview takes place. Do you understand that?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: In this episode, which follows the revelations in the two
Speaker 1: subscriber only episodes of eleven and twelve, you are going
Speaker 1: to hear John Winfield in his own words. You are
Speaker 1: not hearing John's voice. We've got a voice actor for this,
Speaker 1: but you are hearing Glenn Taylor's distinctive voice for this
Speaker 1: podcast series. Glenn agreed to read from the transcript of
Speaker 1: the interview that he did with John, but first, here's
Speaker 1: Glenn at his home in Ballina in March twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1: I was meeting the former homicide detective for the first time.
Speaker 1: Let's go back to the interview that you did with
Speaker 1: Jonathan Winfield. There must have been a bit of anticipation,
Speaker 1: on a bit of build up, and you go into
Speaker 1: that and how did his demeanor striking concerned that the
Speaker 1: evidence have a week later to.
Speaker 2: Lead to chargers. We believe he should put him my
Speaker 2: electronic We called it HEAVI you.
Speaker 1: He was cooperative and came to the interview with you
Speaker 1: and detected timby voluntarily es. I asked him about the
Speaker 1: pros and cons of interviewing the person of interest, a
Speaker 1: man whom Glenn regarded as a clear and present suspect
Speaker 1: ahead of interviews of everyone else. Remember when Glenn Taylor
Speaker 1: interviewed John, it was August nineteen ninety eight. Lauren and
Speaker 1: Crystal were ten and fifteen, and John was no longer
Speaker 1: in contact with Bromwan's brother Andy Reid, nor with Bromwin's
Speaker 1: sisters Kim Marshall and Melissa Reid. John had stopped talking
Speaker 1: to Bromwin's cousin, Megan Reid. The families were estranged. Bromwin's
Speaker 1: loved ones were deep suspicious of John. In the interview,
Speaker 1: are you looking at, for example, a folder that is
Speaker 1: in front of you, a long list of questions that
Speaker 1: you prepared?
Speaker 2: Of what we did. We certainly went over the movements.
Speaker 6: Of himself when he arrived back at the house and
Speaker 6: what was discussed, and he again a Lexid that she
Speaker 6: was seen this mysterious fan call and leaving the house
Speaker 6: and not saying where she's going already ing and then
Speaker 6: why he would suddenly just make a decision to take
Speaker 6: the key, King still in there, jamas put in the car,
Speaker 6: are they in your clothes? And then God in the
Speaker 6: family car that she was sitting positional back to Sydney.
Speaker 1: The timeline of the investigation by Glenn Taylor shows that
Speaker 1: Jonathan Winfield was the first cab off the rank, the
Speaker 1: first person to be formally interviewed. I think he's still wanted.
Speaker 4: To project in the interview that he was concerned for her,
Speaker 4: and then he had nothing to hide, he'd done nothing wrong.
Speaker 2: We tried not to lead in his stay and untain
Speaker 2: and when you were sitting there opposite.
Speaker 1: Him in the media like that, which is being electronically recorded,
Speaker 1: as you're getting the answers and hearing his explanations for
Speaker 1: certain things that you might have found.
Speaker 2: Suspicious, but you're keeping an open mind.
Speaker 1: Were you being persuaded that perhaps this wasn't suspicious, that
Speaker 1: she had just started a new life.
Speaker 4: Where would she go, how would she fund herself to
Speaker 4: do these things? Loan's ever seen us since or none
Speaker 4: of her bank accounts had ever been touched, and she's
Speaker 4: never attempted to make contact with the kids.
Speaker 2: We went right through.
Speaker 7: Everything that he allegies happened about his marriage and going
Speaker 7: down to Sydney to do work, and then finding out
Speaker 7: that prominent move back into the family own.
Speaker 1: Did you if I any people who were antagonistic or
Speaker 1: potentially enemies of bronwin who may have caused her harm.
Speaker 2: Nay not. Why I hope he talks to me. You
Speaker 2: never know, Jonathan Winfield, he was never formally Indian.
Speaker 4: Back in the addition with mister Gash he has spoken
Speaker 4: didn't but he was never formally anyviewed by a WI
Speaker 4: of electronic recording or eveything statement taken from him.
Speaker 2: But he will have to agree to come in and
Speaker 2: talk to you all. Now, No, he didn't.
Speaker 4: But he's saying that she just walked down in the
Speaker 4: family homeland. She's just a missing person now, and that
Speaker 4: she's left the home that have her own lanes. It
Speaker 4: would likely make it more suspicious if you said, no on,
Speaker 4: I'm not going to participate in any Indian because he's
Speaker 4: always wanted to come across that she left the home
Speaker 4: that night.
Speaker 2: Never did he send.
Speaker 1: Again and how to strike you in that interview, I
Speaker 1: believe he wanted to put himself across as wanting to
Speaker 1: assist the police.
Speaker 4: He didn't ever indicate that he wanted to be leading
Speaker 4: he represented.
Speaker 1: Now let's return to the nineteen ninety eight police interview
Speaker 1: with John Winfield.
Speaker 2: I'm just going to read this onto the record here,
Speaker 2: and if you understand it, I'll just get you to
Speaker 2: acknowledge that the statement made by you accurately sets out
Speaker 2: the evidence which you will be prepared, if necessary, to
Speaker 2: give in court as a witness. The statement is true
Speaker 2: to the best of your knowledge and belief, and you
Speaker 2: make it knowing that if it is tended in evidence,
Speaker 2: you shall be liable to prosecution if you are rawfully
Speaker 2: stated in it anything which you know to be false
Speaker 2: or do not believe to be true. Do you give
Speaker 2: an undertaking to tell the truth?
Speaker 8: In his interview, Yeah, Yeah, John confirmed that he was
Speaker 8: still living at the house in Sandstone Crescent with Lauren
Speaker 8: and Crystal.
Speaker 2: The experienced bricklayer said he was not working.
Speaker 4: Do you agree that prior to the commencement of this
Speaker 4: interview I told you that I wanted to have a
Speaker 4: conversation with you about the disappearance of your wife at
Speaker 4: Lennox Head on or about the sixteenth of May nineteen
Speaker 4: ninety three.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: John answered the early questions with what, in my view
Speaker 1: reads like an offhand or somewhat disinterested tone. It seems
Speaker 1: that Glenn was trying to build rapport, gently rolling the
Speaker 1: arm over with a series of easy questions at the start,
Speaker 1: when were they married, What was Bromwin's surname before they
Speaker 1: were wed?
Speaker 2: Where did they live when.
Speaker 1: They first went to Lenox Head from the Qunella Shire?
Speaker 2: When was Lauren born? He wanted John to get comfortable.
Speaker 4: Can you give us any names that she used to
Speaker 4: associate closely with in the early nineteen nineties?
Speaker 2: Close friends?
Speaker 9: Denise Barnard, probably the next door neighbor, Debbie Nolan.
Speaker 2: Do you know where Denise? I haven't seen. Yeah.
Speaker 9: I see Denisa around town occasionally talk to her, but
Speaker 9: I don't know where she's living, either Ballino or Lennox Head.
Speaker 1: I have talked to Denise about her limited contact with
Speaker 1: John after Bromin disappeared. Have you formed view about whether
Speaker 1: he did murder Roman?
Speaker 10: Yes? I have.
Speaker 2: Do you know when you formed a view like that? Right?
Speaker 10: But then I've always had that view.
Speaker 1: Did you effectively cut ties with John back then because
Speaker 1: of that view?
Speaker 10: Yes, not that he would have ever made an effort
Speaker 10: to be in contact with anyone. Really, He's not that
Speaker 10: sort of person. He would have been happy. I think
Speaker 10: once it all died down a little bit, when Lauren
Speaker 10: was at school. If it was ever in the paper
Speaker 10: Missing Person's Week Roman would appear, she'd be removed from school.
Speaker 10: She wouldn't be there, So he's just kept her protected
Speaker 10: all that time as well. High school, she was never
Speaker 10: there when anything was in the paper. I could never
Speaker 10: approach her say remember me, I mean she was little.
Speaker 10: Maybe she remembers me.
Speaker 11: I don't know.
Speaker 10: When I see her now, she's identical to a mom
Speaker 10: from behind.
Speaker 2: Do you ever talk to her?
Speaker 10: I didn't ever want to. I don't know, bring it
Speaker 10: up and pass my thoughts on to her, because obviously
Speaker 10: she still believes her dad. And what would you say,
Speaker 10: what haven't you mummy? I mean no, I've just did
Speaker 10: never go there, and we were never encouraged to see
Speaker 10: her after Bromwin disappeared by John. John just shielded those
Speaker 10: kids and nobody saw them. And he's very private.
Speaker 1: I guess it's possible to look at that with an
Speaker 1: understanding that he doesn't want his children to be reminded
Speaker 1: by rumormongers.
Speaker 2: Sure.
Speaker 1: Now back to the nineteen ninety eight interview by Glenn
Speaker 1: Taylor of John Winfield.
Speaker 4: Okay, the next person just said was a lady called.
Speaker 9: Nolan was it. Yeah, Debbie Nolan. Actually her name is
Speaker 9: really Debbie Hall. She's really my next door neighbor.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: Deb was one of the first people to contact me
Speaker 1: about doing a podcast investigation into Bromwin's suspected murder. You
Speaker 1: first heard her in the earliest episodes, and deb stays
Speaker 1: in touch, ringing and emailing me with information that she
Speaker 1: hears around the community of Lennox Head.
Speaker 2: And I thought, you know what, You've got to get
Speaker 2: away from this guy. You you call that miserable and
Speaker 2: he's controlling.
Speaker 12: And I did used to say to her from when,
Speaker 12: you know, when she'd had first crying sessions.
Speaker 10: About him out here, And I say, Brown, you can't
Speaker 10: live like this.
Speaker 2: You've got to get away from him.
Speaker 1: Oh but I've got nowhere to go, and I'll have
Speaker 1: no money and never And that went.
Speaker 2: On for a while.
Speaker 9: Apart from that, Oh wait a minute, there's another girl.
Speaker 9: I know someone spoke to her, but I can't even
Speaker 9: remember her second name.
Speaker 2: I know Graham spoke to her.
Speaker 1: The Graham that John is referring to is the then
Speaker 1: detective Sergeant Graham Disco and John was speaking about the
Speaker 1: woman that we are calling Joan. She has been concerned
Speaker 1: about her real name being published. The first time you
Speaker 1: heard her was in episode two. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: identify you by your name in this podcast, but your
Speaker 1: voice will be heard.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, are you okay with that? And I understand
Speaker 2: that you've got personal reasons?
Speaker 1: Where would you like to start talking about your friend Brongwa.
Speaker 9: She loves to kill so that there's no way she
Speaker 9: willingly go off and leave her kids.
Speaker 4: Okay, Okay, We're going to move on a little bit now.
Speaker 4: Between nineteen ninety and say early nineteen ninety three, Yeah,
Speaker 4: what was happening in your family life?
Speaker 9: Oh well, we moved in the house in January nineteen ninety.
Speaker 2: My mother died.
Speaker 9: In September nineteen ninety, bronwin A was pregnant again. She
Speaker 9: had an abortion in I can't remember if that was
Speaker 9: ninety one or something, either ninety or ninety one, I
Speaker 9: just can't remember. I mean, we were going through a
Speaker 9: pretty tough time. I mean, like when mom died, I
Speaker 9: took it pretty tough, and sort of she got pregnant,
Speaker 9: which wasn't planned, and we decided, you know, we weren't
Speaker 9: going to have any more kids because at that stage,
Speaker 9: you know, we had three kids really living with us.
Speaker 2: We had my eldest daughter, Jodie Glenn Taylor. Circled back
Speaker 2: to the abortion. How did you How did Bromin feel
Speaker 2: about that? I don't know. I sort of, like I said,
Speaker 2: my mom died that year.
Speaker 9: I was really close to my mom, and I was
Speaker 9: probably I don't know, I mean took it.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 9: See, mum died in September nineteen ninety. Yes, that was
Speaker 9: around about the time that she got pregnant. I think
Speaker 9: by memory, around about that time, alright, and it was
Speaker 9: just sort of too much for us to cope with.
Speaker 9: So we talked about it. We had three kids at
Speaker 9: that time and that was enough.
Speaker 4: Was there a point in time somewhere between say, Christmas
Speaker 4: in nineteen ninety two in March from ninety three where
Speaker 4: your marriage started to deteriorate?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that's what's happened.
Speaker 9: That's what happened, you know, sort of sort of virtually
Speaker 9: as soon as Lauren got off to school, you know.
Speaker 2: Can you tell us about that all? Well? She reckons,
Speaker 2: she reckons.
Speaker 9: She told me just before we separated that she had
Speaker 9: a nervous breakdown in the in the January of nineteen
Speaker 9: ninety three. All right, and I said to her, you know,
Speaker 9: what's a nervous breakdown? I've heard of it, but can
Speaker 9: you tell me what it is? You know, I sort
Speaker 9: of didn't understand, but she reckoned. She had a nervous breakdown,
Speaker 9: and she went to see the doctor in Lennox. I
Speaker 9: don't know if it was doctor Watson or doctor Hughes.
Speaker 9: I don't know which one it was, but she went
Speaker 9: to one in Lennox and apparently she was being treated
Speaker 9: for depression, you know, like a nervous breakdown. Now, whether
Speaker 9: that's true or not, I don't know, but that's what
Speaker 9: she told me.
Speaker 2: You know, where did you have these discussions?
Speaker 9: You know what It's like you sort of round the
Speaker 9: house and you're sort of talking, and you know, what's
Speaker 9: going on with our marriage, that sort of this sort
Speaker 9: of stuff.
Speaker 2: Did this go over some weeks?
Speaker 9: Well, Lauren went off to school on what say, the
Speaker 9: first of February and ninety three, I think whatever day
Speaker 9: school started she started. Then she was still working in
Speaker 9: that job at the time, and virtually from that moment
Speaker 9: that was when she said to me, one of these days,
Speaker 9: I'm going to move out. I drove Lauren and Bronwin
Speaker 9: down to the school because I had a big day
Speaker 9: sort of starting up at school, and you know, things
Speaker 9: weren't sort of things were a bit funny, you know.
Speaker 2: I think I.
Speaker 9: Drove Lauren to school every day for the first week,
Speaker 9: you know, with her mum. And I can remember her
Speaker 9: going her mum walking to school with her and I said, gee,
Speaker 9: that took a long time, you know, because she was
Speaker 9: in therefore, it was probably fifteen minutes or so. And
Speaker 9: she said she came back and said, I just had
Speaker 9: to tell the teacher that we're separating.
Speaker 2: What did you feel about that?
Speaker 9: I was naturally surprised, you know, I mean, fair enough.
Speaker 9: I meant we weren't getting on particularly well. But I mean, geez,
Speaker 9: plenty of marriages go through funny times. I mean, we
Speaker 9: were never sort of fighting in front of the kids,
Speaker 9: sort of hitting each other or anything like that.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 9: See what what's been suggested to me, and I don't
Speaker 9: know whether it's right, is when she had this bit
Speaker 9: of a job she had, it was virtually the first
Speaker 9: job she really had where she had money to herself,
Speaker 9: because she kept all the money herself, you know, and
Speaker 9: she got that little bit of independence. You know, it's
Speaker 9: been suggested to me sort of went to her head
Speaker 9: with that little bit of independence. She had her own money,
Speaker 9: and sort of she was.
Speaker 2: Off, you know.
Speaker 1: The detective asked John whether Bromwin was taking any medication
Speaker 1: at the time.
Speaker 2: Well, that's like I said.
Speaker 9: She said to me that she'd been treated for a
Speaker 9: nervous breakdown in January nineteen ninety three by one of
Speaker 9: the doctors in Lenox, you know, but I never saw
Speaker 9: her take any medication.
Speaker 1: Later, Glenn Taylor would go to see the doctors Bromwin
Speaker 1: was known to have consulted, and nobody had any record
Speaker 1: or recollection of treatment of roman for a nervous breakdown.
Speaker 1: Brommin's brother Andy is adamant that he would have been
Speaker 1: told by his sister if she had suffered a mental
Speaker 1: or nervous breakdown. He is sure that John's claim is false.
Speaker 4: Leading up to this separation, what did she want you
Speaker 4: to do? Did she want you to sleep in another
Speaker 4: room or move out of the house.
Speaker 9: No, No, we slept No, I mean we've slept in
Speaker 9: the same bed. I mean it's sort of funny, like
Speaker 9: her moods would change on a daily basis. She's not
Speaker 9: what you'd call a bad tempered, sort of aggressive sort
Speaker 9: of person, but she's sort of pretty stubborn. I'm probably
Speaker 9: more the bad tempered one, you know. I shoot off
Speaker 9: a lot of steam. We were getting along fine, and
Speaker 9: then sort of she'd sort of say, all of a sudden,
Speaker 9: there's problems in our marriage again.
Speaker 2: I mean, I told Graham, Graham, you're talking about detective Sergeant.
Speaker 9: I told Graham, like when she was working in that shop,
Speaker 9: I told you about she'd been working with this bloke
Speaker 9: in there called.
Speaker 2: I don't know his name. All I know is.
Speaker 9: His name's Jacko, right, And apparently from what her girlfriends
Speaker 9: had told me that she'd sort of sort of fallen
Speaker 9: for this Jacko bloke, you know. And I think Graham
Speaker 9: contacted him at Barrera. I'm not one hundred percent, but
Speaker 9: I know someone told me his mother lives at Barrera
Speaker 9: in Sydney. So anyway, apparently while she was still living
Speaker 9: with me, she was all about, he's got a motorbike
Speaker 9: and he was picking her up and sort of taking
Speaker 9: her for rides up to Byron Bay and back on
Speaker 9: the motorbike.
Speaker 2: You know. But this is all I never saw it
Speaker 2: for myself.
Speaker 9: I mean, she'd actually told me that, you know, but
Speaker 9: that was while she was working in that shop, Eden's
Speaker 9: Takeaway and she was working with this jack guy.
Speaker 2: Did you ever see this Jacko? Yeah? I know him. Yeah.
Speaker 9: What did he look like a sort of tall guy
Speaker 9: with black curly hair, heavy sort of what was he
Speaker 9: doing for John?
Speaker 2: He was working in the takeaway shop, he was in
Speaker 2: the same place. Yeah, yeah, and he and you said
Speaker 2: he had a motor sockle.
Speaker 9: Yeah, well she told me they used to go riding
Speaker 9: up to Byron Bay and stuff. You know.
Speaker 1: In episode three, you heard Broman's brother Andy Reid, recalling
Speaker 1: John's agitation that his estranged wife was hanging out with
Speaker 1: Gary Jackson and had supposedly been seen on Jacko's motorbike.
Speaker 5: All of a sudden, John's ringing me, Oh, she's going
Speaker 5: there and around town. She's in another relationship with some bloke.
Speaker 5: She's on the back of a motorbike. He was very
Speaker 5: flustered about that. He didn't handle that well because Bromwold
Speaker 5: remain say, John's upparked up the road at Byron Street
Speaker 5: after the spot after John had rung and obviously there
Speaker 5: must have been some confrontation because had rung me to
Speaker 5: say I was accusing me of other relationship.
Speaker 1: My colleague and friend Dave Murray asked Jacko about this.
Speaker 2: Did you ride a motorbike back then? Gary? Yeah, I
Speaker 2: used to be a bike by that. Okay, do you
Speaker 2: remember if you ever gave Bromwin a lift on a motorbike?
Speaker 2: I'm going to give Glenn Taylor pressed John on whether
Speaker 2: Bromwin had money to herself A sure. Yeah.
Speaker 9: I never saw the account, but I actually think Graham
Speaker 9: was the one that told me about this. Excuse me.
Speaker 9: I think it was still in her maiden name. It
Speaker 9: was John's fourth familiar mention of Graham Graham discan.
Speaker 2: Okay, we'll just move on a little bit now.
Speaker 4: I think the records indicate that you separated some time
Speaker 4: in March of nineteen ninety three, formally separated. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: Can you tell us about what happened, how the separation
Speaker 4: actually came about on the day.
Speaker 2: I know the basics, but okay.
Speaker 9: Well, she was living at she was living at Byron
Speaker 9: Street forty forty something. She suddenly decided to live out
Speaker 9: in the family house. Yeah, and she'd been living therefore.
Speaker 9: I honestly can't remember. Maybe maybe a couple months. I
Speaker 9: don't know. I can't remember. She moved out and took
Speaker 9: the kids with her, and I stayed in the house.
Speaker 9: So she moved out on her own accord. What did
Speaker 9: she take with her as much as she wanted. She
Speaker 9: virtually took as much as she wanted. What about furniture, Well,
Speaker 9: took lounges, I remember. I think she took the I
Speaker 9: know she took the bed because I was sleeping on
Speaker 9: the floor there on the single mattress.
Speaker 2: Virtually she took the lot.
Speaker 1: According to John, the move was a surprise. He said
Speaker 1: he was driving with Bromwin after dropping Lauren at school
Speaker 1: when she told him that she'd called a removalist.
Speaker 9: And then all of a sudden, these removalists turn up.
Speaker 9: I was told that morning that she was moving out.
Speaker 9: I gave her a check for the bond money because
Speaker 9: she didn't have any money, so she said, but oh,
Speaker 9: you know, I think it was for six or seven
Speaker 9: hundred bucks. I think I can't remember now, because apparently
Speaker 9: she told me she had no money. I couldn't stop her,
Speaker 9: you know, so the kids had to have a place
Speaker 9: to live. So I gave her money for the bond,
Speaker 9: and I made it out to the lady, the landlord
Speaker 9: down there, Shirley Taylor. But later on I found out
Speaker 9: that she did have money, because Graham told me she
Speaker 9: had a grand in the bank, loaded up and off
Speaker 9: she went.
Speaker 2: Was that fairly amicable, was it?
Speaker 9: I remember she told the kids the night before that
Speaker 9: she was going to move out, and I just sort
Speaker 9: of shrugged it off. I says, that's just one of
Speaker 9: her sort of you know statements again, you know. And
Speaker 9: then sure enough, like that morning I saw her, she said,
Speaker 9: the removaluss is coming at two o'clock.
Speaker 1: John wasn't working as a bricklayer when Bromwin told him
Speaker 1: she was leaving him. He had injured his neck in
Speaker 1: January nineteen ninety three. John told the detective that his
Speaker 1: neck was in a brace for almost ten weeks.
Speaker 4: After she moved out to the flat in Byron Street.
Speaker 4: How long did you stay in the house in Sandstein
Speaker 4: Crescent before you.
Speaker 2: Went to Sydney. Oh.
Speaker 9: I went to Sydney virtually just to work, just a
Speaker 9: change of environment. I might have been there from either
Speaker 9: two to four weeks. I really can't remember. I'd have
Speaker 9: to look it up.
Speaker 1: It is not clear from the interview whether John's comment
Speaker 1: about having been there for two to four weeks is
Speaker 1: a reference to how long he stayed alone at Sandstone
Speaker 1: Crescent after Bromin had moved out in late March, or
Speaker 1: whether it is a reference to how long he stayed
Speaker 1: in Sydney while working for Glenn Webster on the build
Speaker 1: of his house in Illawong in the Shire. In Glenn
Speaker 1: Webster's statement to police, he specifically recalls working with John
Speaker 1: on the Anzac Day public holiday in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 2: April twenty five.
Speaker 1: He confirmed that his return to the house on the
Speaker 1: Sunday night in May was his first visit back from Sydney.
Speaker 4: So you lived with Sydney to work, Yeah, to work,
Speaker 4: and then the next contact you had with your wife
Speaker 4: would have been the night she the night she actually.
Speaker 2: Jumped in the car. Yeah, that's it when missing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well did you communicate with your wife just say
Speaker 4: that you were coming back up to Lennox Head follow.
Speaker 9: I had occasionally had phone calls. I remember one particular
Speaker 9: phone call you. I used to ring her occasionally. I
Speaker 9: don't remember if it was once a week or once
Speaker 9: every two weeks. At that stage she was after me
Speaker 9: to put some sort of one hundred and twenty five
Speaker 9: bucks or something a month into Lauren's account, which I
Speaker 9: was sort of negotiating with her to do like a
Speaker 9: child support sort of thing.
Speaker 1: John recalled a conversation he had on the telephone with
Speaker 1: Bromwin when she was living in the flat on Byron
Speaker 1: Street and she had a visitor, her good friend and
Speaker 1: former neighbor, deb Hall.
Speaker 9: This Debbie, Debbie Hall at the time, was visiting her
Speaker 9: just for a cup of tea or something, you know,
Speaker 9: and all of a sudden, she just exploded at me
Speaker 9: on the phone, you know, sort of went off for
Speaker 9: no reason, just to sort of make some sort of
Speaker 9: make me out to be, you know, a monster to
Speaker 9: this Debbie. You know, because this Debbie mentioned to me,
Speaker 9: you know, I don't know why she went off at
Speaker 9: you on the phone that day, because there's no reason too.
Speaker 9: And then later on they had lunch together and apparently
Speaker 9: she said to Debbie Hall something about being a really
Speaker 9: good actress or something.
Speaker 2: This was how long before the sixteenth of May.
Speaker 9: I was still in Sydney, I don't know. Could have
Speaker 9: been two weeks before, could have been a month before.
Speaker 9: I used to ring up from time to time just
Speaker 9: to see how the kids were and stuff.
Speaker 2: Whilst you were in Sydney. Yeah.
Speaker 4: And when you were communicating with her, did she give
Speaker 4: you any demands of that propertysettlement?
Speaker 2: No, not at all.
Speaker 4: Anything about going that she wanted to move back into
Speaker 4: the family home.
Speaker 9: No, No, I never said anything about it at all.
Speaker 9: That's why it was such a shock when all of
Speaker 9: a sudden she rang well, I rang her up.
Speaker 10: And.
Speaker 9: She'd moved out of wherever she was at forty two
Speaker 9: and she was back in the fair home. You know,
Speaker 9: I think it was the sixteenth. It was a Saturday
Speaker 9: or Sunday, wasn't it? Because I came back on the
Speaker 9: Sunday and she left on the Sunday night about midnight.
Speaker 2: Is that right?
Speaker 1: There are some interesting disclosures in this answer from John.
Speaker 1: He was He says shocked that Bromwin had moved back
Speaker 1: into the family home, but it seems he was not
Speaker 1: shocked when she moved straight back out again, and his
Speaker 1: timing is off too. He is saying that she left
Speaker 1: on the Sunday night about midnight. Previously, however, he told
Speaker 1: Detective Discan and Bromwin's friends and family that it was
Speaker 1: about nine nine thirty pm.
Speaker 2: Up to that point.
Speaker 4: Had you been contacted by a solicitor or had any
Speaker 4: documents served upon you?
Speaker 2: No about family law?
Speaker 9: No, no, just let me think. Well, she didn't know
Speaker 9: my address in Sydney, so I couldn't have had any
Speaker 9: Now I'm sure I didn't.
Speaker 4: Are you aware that she was in contact with a
Speaker 4: within he solicitous.
Speaker 9: Well only through what Graham told me. Graham told me
Speaker 9: that she'd spoken to a guy in Ballina, Tony Manering,
Speaker 9: and I think she'd spoken to a guy Byron Bay
Speaker 9: called I can't remember his name now. And later I
Speaker 9: found out that she's spoken to and I told Graham this.
Speaker 9: I found out from a neighbor of mine that she'd
Speaker 9: spoken to a guy from Mulin Bimbi or Ocean Shaw's Way.
Speaker 1: The solicitors to whom John is referring to here, Tony
Speaker 1: Mannering and Graham Holland, were consulted by Bromman about her
Speaker 1: legal rights, but in the end she decided to retain
Speaker 1: Chris mcdebittt, who was based in Lismore. And you've previously
Speaker 1: heard that Broman telephoned Chris mcdebott at his home on
Speaker 1: the Sunday afternoon because of her concern about John's imminent
Speaker 1: arrival at the house. Romman had made an appointment to
Speaker 1: see Chris mcdebitt in his Lismore office on the Monday
Speaker 1: morning for further legal advice, but she neither canceled nor
Speaker 1: turned up, and he never heard from her again.
Speaker 2: In my view, this.
Speaker 1: Was one of the most concerning and early signs of
Speaker 1: possible foul play, and Graham Diskin knew about it within
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks of Roman's disappearance, but no statement
Speaker 1: was taken from the solicitor or anyone back in nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety three. There is another striking feature for police. John
Speaker 1: really should have been a person of interest in his
Speaker 1: estranged wife's disappearance at a very early stage. Instead, it
Speaker 1: is as if John has the inside running on the
Speaker 1: police investigation. By the detectives in nineteen ninety three, John
Speaker 1: had gleaned a lot of potentially significant information, and he
Speaker 1: said he was told all of it by Graham Discan,
Speaker 1: Broman's bank account balance, Bromman's legal representation, including Tony Mannering,
Speaker 1: and chrismcdebitt. Broman's telephone call to chrismcdebitt on the Sunday afternoon.
Speaker 1: They're just some of the things that John volunteered. He
Speaker 1: had been told by Graham discin. Sometimes detectives deliberately share
Speaker 1: information with a person of interest or plant information for
Speaker 1: the suspect to find. And it's a good strategy as
Speaker 1: it can prompt panicky reactions and conversations when telephones are
Speaker 1: being bugged and listening devices are in houses and cars.
Speaker 1: But none of that was occurring with John in nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety three. Police were unaware while they were sharing key
Speaker 1: intelligence from their own investigation that the person soaking it
Speaker 1: up might have been the killer. For detectives SEENI you
Speaker 1: Consortable Wayne Temby, who was in the interview room at
Speaker 1: Ballina Police station with Glenn Taylor in nineteen ninety eight,
Speaker 1: parts of this must have felt like deja vous. It
Speaker 1: would be interesting to know now how Temby, who is
Speaker 1: long retired, reflects on the first and the second police investigation.
Speaker 1: He has declined to comment for this podcast series. As
Speaker 1: Glen Taylor took a breather, Detective Temby chimed in, how
Speaker 1: did you become aware when you were in Sydney that
Speaker 1: she moved out of the flat?
Speaker 9: I rang up and she wasn't there. So I rang
Speaker 9: the family home, all right, and she answered the phone,
Speaker 9: and that.
Speaker 2: Was what a few days before?
Speaker 9: You come up on the day before, I think the
Speaker 9: day before, I see. And what did you say to her? Oh,
Speaker 9: I can't remember. I said, just surprise she was back
Speaker 9: in the family home. You know, I just sort of
Speaker 9: shut up to see what was going on. I mean
Speaker 9: she had keys. She always had a key to the
Speaker 9: family home anyway, you know. I mean she, her and
Speaker 9: I were the only two people bar my father, are
Speaker 9: the only ones who have got a key to the
Speaker 9: family home.
Speaker 2: Actually the house is deadlocked.
Speaker 9: Actually, I think I put a deadlock, and I think
Speaker 9: from memory she got a locksmith in to get rid
Speaker 9: of the deadlock.
Speaker 2: I think from memory.
Speaker 1: You heard from Bromwin's neighbors, Chris and Lloyd Hargrave about it.
Speaker 1: In episode three.
Speaker 13: She called out to me from our yard on her
Speaker 13: side of the house. When I approached Bromwin, she asked
Speaker 13: me if I had a key, and I told her
Speaker 13: I didn't. She said that she couldn't get into the
Speaker 13: house because John had changed all the locks. She was
Speaker 13: very upset and crying and said that John had threatened
Speaker 13: to take the children from her, the same as he
Speaker 13: he had done to his first wife and taken Jodie
Speaker 13: from her.
Speaker 14: Bromman said that she was unable to get into the
Speaker 14: house and she appeared to be very upset at the time.
Speaker 14: It was at this time that Bronman told Chris and
Speaker 14: I that Jonathan Winfield had threatened that he was going
Speaker 14: to take the children from her. It was not long
Speaker 14: after this that the locksmith arrived, and I'm aware that
Speaker 14: Bronman moved back into the house.
Speaker 2: Bromwin's neighbors were interviewed by Glenn Taylor on September twelve,
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety eight, five weeks after John's interview.
Speaker 4: When you made a rageous to come back up on
Speaker 4: the sixth Street of May, Yeah, Had you communicated to
Speaker 4: her that you were coming?
Speaker 2: Had you told her? I might have said, yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: coming home, Yeah, something like that.
Speaker 1: John confirmed that Bromwin had kept control of the family
Speaker 1: car while he was away in Sydney until the Sunday night,
Speaker 1: and she disappeared and he left in the Ford Falcon
Speaker 1: with the girls. Glenn Taylor quiz John about his arrival
Speaker 1: into Banana on that fateful night.
Speaker 9: He was dark. I don't know, six o'clock. Say, I
Speaker 9: came straight here to the police station. See what was
Speaker 9: your intention to come to the police station, because I
Speaker 9: was going back there I saw it. Didn't want any shit.
Speaker 9: I just wanted to cover myself.
Speaker 2: Really.
Speaker 9: I told the guy downstairs what had happened. I, you know,
Speaker 9: a family breakup, all this sort of business. She moved out,
Speaker 9: she moved back into the family home. I'm just going
Speaker 9: to go back there now. And you know, it was
Speaker 9: just sort of like I didn't want her ringing up
Speaker 9: and saying, you know, he's here bashing me, sort of
Speaker 9: stuff like that, you know, So I sort of came
Speaker 9: to the police first. I told him what I was
Speaker 9: going to do, and he said, okay. I saw him
Speaker 9: take a note of it and went.
Speaker 4: Had there been any complaints no from your wife about
Speaker 4: physical contact between yourself and her up to that point?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 9: No, Look, the law is always on the side of
Speaker 9: the woman, isn't it. Really, So I just sort of
Speaker 9: covered myself. I thought, well, when I come up, I thought, well,
Speaker 9: you know, I don't want to sort of go in
Speaker 9: there and sort of her start screaming and stuff like that.
Speaker 9: So I didn't know what I was going to expect
Speaker 9: when I got there, because you know, I just didn't know.
Speaker 9: So I just came in and saw the desk sergeant downstairs,
Speaker 9: and I can't remember what his name was actually, but
Speaker 9: I spoke to him for probably fifteen minutes, you know,
Speaker 9: and I told him the story and I told him
Speaker 9: where I was going, and that was it.
Speaker 1: In the police internal running sheet which logged events in
Speaker 1: the nineteen ninety three investigation by Graham Diskin, there is
Speaker 1: an entry and it was made by the then Constable
Speaker 1: Julie Donovan. The entry states that on May thirty of
Speaker 1: that year, Constable Donovan.
Speaker 13: Verified from Sergeant heart To that conversation did take place
Speaker 13: in relation to rights of moving back into house.
Speaker 1: John described the arrangements that were made for his return
Speaker 1: to Lenox. There was the telephone call to get a
Speaker 1: lift from the airport with John Watson, the father of
Speaker 1: a girl called Natalie, one of Jody's friends when they
Speaker 1: were at school together.
Speaker 9: I think I rang him, or Jody might have rung
Speaker 9: him and said can you pick that up at the airport?
Speaker 9: Because I came back with a surfboard, see at a
Speaker 9: bit of love. Everything I took to Sydney, I brought
Speaker 9: virtually brought back with me, you.
Speaker 1: Know, And that's another interesting disclosure. In my view, it
Speaker 1: strongly suggests that John Winfield was intending to stay in
Speaker 1: Lennox for a while. There's no indication in that answer
Speaker 1: that he intended to leave again that same night to
Speaker 1: drive all the way back to Sydney. John described the
Speaker 1: short drive on Sunday evening to the house of Becky Maguire,
Speaker 1: another of Jodie's friends from school.
Speaker 9: Because I remember the sergeant downstairs said, you know, you're
Speaker 9: better off to have someone with you.
Speaker 2: Did you say one of Jade's friends.
Speaker 9: Yeah, one of JD's friends, Becky, who's Jody, Jadie's my daughter.
Speaker 1: I just want to pause to make another point here.
Speaker 1: While being cross examined by senior lawyers during trial proceedings
Speaker 1: over the murder of Christal's AND's wife, Lynn, I realized
Speaker 1: that my questioners didn't know some things which, in my view,
Speaker 1: they ought to have been aware of before asking me.
Speaker 1: It won't be true for everyone, but I grew in
Speaker 1: confidence in the witness box when my question has made
Speaker 1: an error or demonstrated that they were not across some
Speaker 1: of the more obvious details. Now it might have been
Speaker 1: a deliberate play by Glen Taylor asking the person of
Speaker 1: interest who is Jody? And it's possible the season detective
Speaker 1: wanted John to think that the cops knew little when
Speaker 1: they were really lulling John into a false sense of security.
Speaker 1: If it wasn't deliberate, if Glen Taylor did not know
Speaker 1: where Jody fitted into the picture in that first interview,
Speaker 1: then in my view, it's not best practice.
Speaker 9: Jody's my daughter, right, but she's been out of the
Speaker 9: family home for years now.
Speaker 2: So you arrived at the only can you tell us
Speaker 2: what happened when you were right?
Speaker 9: Yeah, Well, Becky came to the door with me and
Speaker 9: we knocked on the door and then and the door opened.
Speaker 9: So once the door was open, I walked in.
Speaker 1: John repeated the advice that he said he received five
Speaker 1: years earlier from the police sergeant on the front desk
Speaker 1: of the same police station in which he was sitting
Speaker 1: opposite Glenn Taylor and Wayne Temby.
Speaker 9: Don't sort of barge in, knock on the door and
Speaker 9: sort of walk into the family home. Don't break into
Speaker 9: the family home.
Speaker 2: That's what he said to me. So I took his advice.
Speaker 2: Did bron Win in for the door.
Speaker 9: Yeah, came straight to the door, opened the door and
Speaker 9: I walked straight in. So once I was right in
Speaker 9: the door, I said, oh, thanks, beck see you later,
Speaker 9: and she just off she went.
Speaker 1: There is a discrepancy here. Becky Maguire had to get
Speaker 1: home from Sandstone Crescent. She had been picked up at
Speaker 1: her house by John Watson and John Winfield after they
Speaker 1: left the police station. Becky's statement to police, which was
Speaker 1: taken five weeks after John's interview, is rich with detail.
Speaker 1: This is what Becky said happened from the time John
Speaker 1: Watson stopped outside the house in Sandstone Crescent to let
Speaker 1: John Winfield and Becky get out of the car.
Speaker 15: John Watson drove away. We walked up to the front
Speaker 15: of the house and John knocked on the door. The
Speaker 15: door opened and Bronwyn and the children were standing at
Speaker 15: the door. I can't recall what she was going on about.
Speaker 15: She used to babble on all the time. Bronwin walked
Speaker 15: back into the house towards the kitchen and John gave
Speaker 15: the girls a cuddle, and I saw that Lauren was crying.
Speaker 15: I saw two suitcases inside the doorway, and John picked
Speaker 15: them up and put them in the car. John must
Speaker 15: have had a set of keys to the car, because
Speaker 15: we then got into the car and he drove me home.
Speaker 15: I remember both Crystal and Lauren were standing at the
Speaker 15: window inside the house watching as we reversed out of
Speaker 15: the driveway. John didn't go inside the house at all
Speaker 15: while I was in the house with him.
Speaker 2: Well, we were driving back to my house.
Speaker 15: John thanked me for coming with him and told me
Speaker 15: he was sorry for getting me involved.
Speaker 1: Perhaps John Winfield forgot that he drove Becky home. John
Speaker 1: Watson's statement makes it clear that he drove away alone,
Speaker 1: without Becky or John Winfield.
Speaker 2: So Rowin invited you in to come in.
Speaker 9: She didn't say come in. I just walked in. But
Speaker 9: there was no objection, no objection at all. I mean,
Speaker 9: both the kids came and gave me a hug straight away.
Speaker 9: Becky just stood at the front door. I just said, oh,
Speaker 9: thanks beck and John Watson he drove Becky home.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, yeah, John was waiting out the front.
Speaker 4: I know it's a long time ago, but do you
Speaker 4: have any recollection what bronwin was wearing?
Speaker 9: I told Graham, but gee, I can't remember. I know,
Speaker 9: I think I remember saying to him that she was
Speaker 9: wearing the same clothes that she was wearing at work
Speaker 9: that day. Right, had all the furniture that she'd taken before, Yeah,
Speaker 9: being moved back in there. Yeah everything, not everything, A lot,
Speaker 9: a lot of it, probably ninety percent. I suppose the
Speaker 9: rest was it was still down at the unit. Right,
Speaker 9: She left it in the unit, and the landlord had
Speaker 9: moved it out of the unit and put it put
Speaker 9: in the garage for storage, right, I see. And then
Speaker 9: I had to go down and get it after a
Speaker 9: while because she wouldn't give it to me. But then
Speaker 9: after a while she gave it to me because there
Speaker 9: was still rent going on the place.
Speaker 2: You know. Okay, what happened? Can you take us through?
Speaker 5: Now?
Speaker 4: What happened from the time you arrived Over the next
Speaker 4: few hours, John described having sat down in the dining
Speaker 4: room with a cup of tea. He said, Lauren was
Speaker 4: sitting happily on his lap. She hadn't seen her dad
Speaker 4: for weeks.
Speaker 2: That was virtually it.
Speaker 9: And then by that time it must have been it
Speaker 9: was after dinner because the kids at eden.
Speaker 2: What was your wife, Demanda like, sorry, what was she like?
Speaker 2: What was her attitude to you?
Speaker 9: I don't know, we didn't talk that much. I suppose
Speaker 9: she was surprised that I sort of was there, you
Speaker 9: know that I rang up the day before from Sydney
Speaker 9: and then all of a sudden I was on the doorstep,
Speaker 9: you know. So I suppose she was a bit taken aback,
Speaker 9: But I mean she didn't really let on that she
Speaker 9: was taken aback. I mean, she wasn't hostile or anything
Speaker 9: like that.
Speaker 1: John's interview is nearing the halfway mark, and we're going
Speaker 1: to unpack more of it in the next episode. There
Speaker 1: are some significant loose ends. Here's Glen Taylor describing for
Speaker 1: the podcast how he first became involved in the case.
Speaker 2: I was totally unaware of this matter.
Speaker 11: Range Andrew Reid and his wife Michelle approached us in
Speaker 11: nineteen ninety eight, said look, it's possible to have fresh eyes,
Speaker 11: because that had absolutely nothing since that July or August
Speaker 11: of nineteen ninety three, nothing had been done, had been
Speaker 11: no further developers.
Speaker 2: I was a palled that so little had.
Speaker 4: Been going back in ninety ninety three, there was saying
Speaker 4: any red flags. Say very early on, it's not all
Speaker 4: just about conviction. It's the family and the children knowing
Speaker 4: what did actually happen to Bromwin?
Speaker 2: Where is she?
Speaker 1: Glen Taylor's investigation spanned two and a half years and
Speaker 1: culminated in an inquest in the nearby town of Lismore
Speaker 1: in two thousand and two, and Glenn retired from the
Speaker 1: police around this time. What do you try to project
Speaker 1: in terms of your own tone and approach?
Speaker 2: Well, we still have to maintain a rapport with the person.
Speaker 4: You cannot get if you weigh verbally aggressive or directly
Speaker 4: put allegations did you murder her wrong in the house
Speaker 4: that night? We need to get more information from him
Speaker 4: at the time, so we're not going to try to
Speaker 4: get directly offside. But when, because we just were still
Speaker 4: gathering information and it should have led to at least
Speaker 4: a frenzy.
Speaker 2: Examination of the home and the car. Do you think
Speaker 2: you build a rapport with Grothan? I certainly had a report.
Speaker 4: We were still in a fact finding situation where were
Speaker 4: still interviewing. There is people we wanted to get on
Speaker 4: record because it never been formally put on record before.
Speaker 2: What is something occurred, So we certainly had many things
Speaker 2: to ask.
Speaker 1: You heard Glenn Taylor refer to a lack of any
Speaker 1: forensic examination five years earlier. In the initial police investigation,
Speaker 1: I asked doctor Kirsty Wright to look at some of
Speaker 1: the key documents from Romlin's case.
Speaker 2: But first a.
Speaker 1: Disclosure, I am completely biased about Kirsty and her professionalism
Speaker 1: and character. She is a truly incredible forensic biologist, precise,
Speaker 1: persistent and intellectually brilliant. Her work over two decades has
Speaker 1: solved numerous crimes, and Kirsty has also helped identify the
Speaker 1: remains of many victims of foul play and natural disaster
Speaker 1: in Australia and overseas. Kursey, You've been looking at Romwin
Speaker 1: Winfield's case based on police files and other documents that
Speaker 1: have provided. In nineteen ninety three, there was no forensic
Speaker 1: examination of the house where rollin was like seeing live,
Speaker 1: or of the family car. What, in your opinion, could
Speaker 1: have should have been done at the time.
Speaker 12: The first thing they would do is identify what we
Speaker 12: call primary and secondary crime scenes. A primary crime scene
Speaker 12: could be the Winfield house or it could also be
Speaker 12: Bronwin's flat at Lennox Head. It's very important when you
Speaker 12: do a criminal investigation that you look at the possibilities
Speaker 12: that it is a missing person that supports the suspects
Speaker 12: version of events, or you look for the possibility of
Speaker 12: foul play as well, so both scenarios need to be investigated.
Speaker 12: Possible secondary crime scene could be the wind Field vehicle.
Speaker 12: All of those locations should have been quarantined and forensically
Speaker 12: examined as soon as possible.
Speaker 1: Now, Madison Walsh is here and she's just finished a
Speaker 1: degree in physic science majoring in crime scene investigation.
Speaker 16: How long would it have been biable after Brienwin disappeared
Speaker 16: before it was a loss cause?
Speaker 12: Ideally, with a crime scene, you want to seal it
Speaker 12: off as quickly as possible, and that preserves any evidence
Speaker 12: that may be there. It preserves any evidence being lost
Speaker 12: or contaminated or removed. Ideally, want that crime scene to
Speaker 12: be in a state as close as possible to the
Speaker 12: suspicious event. Now saying that, there are some forensic evidence
Speaker 12: that can remain after an event or even after a cleanup,
Speaker 12: so there could be signs of a struggle, damage to
Speaker 12: the property, there could be items that could contain biological evidence,
Speaker 12: and also urination and defecation is a symptom of strangulation,
Speaker 12: so they'd be looking for any signs of those kinds
Speaker 12: of biological material that are out of context. If somebody
Speaker 12: lives in their own home, they're going to have their
Speaker 12: own biological material there. But what they're really looking for
Speaker 12: is something that out of place, something that could indicate
Speaker 12: a struggle, or something that could indicate something much more
Speaker 12: sinister has occurred.
Speaker 1: In my podcast Shandy Story, doctor Kirsty Wright exposed the
Speaker 1: unforgivable failure of the Queensland Government's DNA testing laboratory to
Speaker 1: properly test tens of thousands of samples from crime scenes
Speaker 1: going back many years. Kirsty's extraordinary findings and her courage
Speaker 1: in that podcast series and in the subsequent Shandy's Legacy
Speaker 1: series have triggered major public inquiries and huge reforms. Her
Speaker 1: work is having a profoundly positive and enduring impact for
Speaker 1: many victims of crime, victims of rapes and murders who
Speaker 1: previously had little to no chance of justice because the
Speaker 1: DNA lab was failing to detect DNA when it was
Speaker 1: right there in minute quantities in the crime scene samples.
Speaker 1: Cherse did that there circumstances of this case as they
Speaker 1: presented at the time to police, in your opinion, demand
Speaker 1: a proper forensic examination.
Speaker 2: Oh, I believe so absolutely.
Speaker 12: We've got a young woman, a mother of two that's suddenly,
Speaker 12: very suddenly, in unexplained circumstances, has left that should have
Speaker 12: been treated with suspicion.
Speaker 16: Do you think that there could's been a different outcome
Speaker 16: to this case had there been forensic examination immediately after
Speaker 16: Brownwin disappeared, Well.
Speaker 2: We simply don't know, Madison.
Speaker 12: It's definitely a lost opportunity to recover what could be
Speaker 12: valuable evidence. Sometimes if a homicide is suspected, it could
Speaker 12: just be one single drop of blood or one item
Speaker 12: that could point to suspicious circumstances and could identify the offender.
Speaker 12: By the delay in the police investigating this and the
Speaker 12: fact that there was no suitable forensic examination of those
Speaker 12: three areas that I just explained, means that there was
Speaker 12: a lost opportunities.
Speaker 1: We're going back a long time, though, thirty one years.
Speaker 1: What technology existed at that time compared with now, for example,
Speaker 1: DNA analysis and other techniques of trying to discover evidence
Speaker 1: where they at a level, at a standard and being
Speaker 1: used at that time such that they could have been useful.
Speaker 12: Absolutely, forensic science in nineteen ninety three is definitely a
Speaker 12: lot different to what we can do with it now
Speaker 12: in twenty twenty four, but there was still the ability
Speaker 12: to identify somebody with DNA evidence. In fact, convictions were
Speaker 12: being made in Australia as far back as nineteen eighty
Speaker 12: eight with DNA evidence. There's also fingerprint examination, there was
Speaker 12: the location of biological material using luminol testing POLYLTE. It's
Speaker 12: the context in which they're found which is informative. So
Speaker 12: simply finding Bronwinner's blood or biological material or finding her
Speaker 12: fingerprints may be of no value unless there's actual context
Speaker 12: to that.
Speaker 2: Well, no value if it's found in the house.
Speaker 1: But part of the police case is that Bromlin's body
Speaker 1: must have been concealed in the vehicle. So if for example,
Speaker 1: Bromin's biological material had been found in the boot of
Speaker 1: the vehicle, if that vehicle had been examine and of
Speaker 1: course this is all hypothetical. John has strenuously denied any involvement,
Speaker 1: and he was the one who drove the car, would
Speaker 1: that have been sufficient to make a.
Speaker 12: Difference identifying blood in unusual locations Unusual locations which may
Speaker 12: be consistent with transporting somebody's body from point A to
Speaker 12: point b absolutely should have been one of the poority
Speaker 12: areas that the police should have investigated. The other thing
Speaker 12: the police should have done is a forensic examination of
Speaker 12: Jonathan Winfield. Would have been too late to get fingerinyl
Speaker 12: scrapings from him, obviously looking for any sign of Bronwin's
Speaker 12: DNA under his fingern ls, but they could have identified
Speaker 12: whether there was any unusual or unexplained injuries on his body.
Speaker 12: They should have seized Jonathan's clothing, the clothing that he
Speaker 12: wore on the night that Bronwinn disappeared, to look for
Speaker 12: any biological evidence on the clothing or look for any
Speaker 12: signs of damage on the clothing which could be unexplained.
Speaker 1: In your professional opinion, Kirsty, having read now about this
Speaker 1: case based on the official documentation, and having read into
Speaker 1: lots of other cases, what do you say about the
Speaker 1: failure in nineteen ninety three to do any forensic examination
Speaker 1: of house or car given the circumstances of a woman
Speaker 1: who has inexplicably disappeared from her home, her family, her children.
Speaker 12: I think it's unacceptable Pedley, even in nineteen ninety three
Speaker 12: to not forensically examine those locations. Let's balance it out.
Speaker 12: There's two sides to this. Where there's been opportunities lost,
Speaker 12: there's also a lost opportunity to find evidence that could
Speaker 12: support Jonathan Winfield's version of events as well.
Speaker 1: Is it surprising, knowing what existed back in nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 1: that these things were not done? Oh?
Speaker 12: Absolutely, there were forensic tools there. It's a mother of
Speaker 12: two children suddenly disappears, is never heard from again. There
Speaker 12: are some suspicious circumstances with the movement of her partner.
Speaker 12: It just seems incredible to me that this case wasn't
Speaker 12: properly investigated.
Speaker 2: You were shocked at that. Oh, absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 12: Even though there was a small delay in reporting Bronwin's disappearance,
Speaker 12: there is still more than enough opportunity for the house,
Speaker 12: the car, and Bronwin's flat to be investigated. Really sad
Speaker 12: for Bronwyn and very sad for her family that they
Speaker 12: never got the answers that they deserve if the police
Speaker 12: had of properly conducted a forensic investigation, and Headley, all
Speaker 12: these years later, they're obviously still searching for those answers.
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as
Speaker 1: a podcast production for the Australian. If anyone has information
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bromwyn
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen and Matthew Condon and David Murray.
Speaker 1: Audio production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio
Speaker 1: and original theme music by Slade Gibson. We have been
Speaker 1: assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation of Bromwin Winfield.
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