1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,720
Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course

2
00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:08,840
Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

3
00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:42,640
Speaker 1: you by Me Headley Thomas and The Australian from John

4
00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,080
Speaker 1: and Bromman's old house on the hillside in Lennox Head.

5
00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,040
Speaker 1: It is a fifteen minute drive to the nearest police

6
00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:53,040
Speaker 1: station in the town of Ballina. The coast Road is

7
00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:57,800
Speaker 1: the picturesque route south, passing John's favorite surfing beaches of

8
00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:02,320
Speaker 1: boulders and sharps. Heading west for a bridge crossing at

9
00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:07,039
Speaker 1: North Creek, John pulled up at River Street, so called

10
00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,559
Speaker 1: because of the Mighty Richmond River, a stone's throw from

11
00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:11,600
Speaker 1: the police building.

12
00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:13,640
Speaker 2: He got here on a.

13
00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,560
Speaker 1: Wednesday morning in August nineteen ninety eight to be interviewed

14
00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,880
Speaker 1: by Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor about the disappearance of Bromwin

15
00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:27,200
Speaker 1: five years and three months earlier. The videotape of that

16
00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:31,160
Speaker 1: interview remains under lock and key with New South Wales Police.

17
00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:36,200
Speaker 1: Bromwin's sister Kim Marshall, retrieved the official transcript of the

18
00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:41,280
Speaker 1: entire conversation for me. It is vitally important as a

19
00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,720
Speaker 1: record of the one and only time John Winfield's version

20
00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,600
Speaker 1: of events. His side of the story has been properly

21
00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:54,240
Speaker 1: documented by a senior police detective. Prior to August five,

22
00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,880
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight. His side of the story was known

23
00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,440
Speaker 1: to many, but they'd heard it from others too, so

24
00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,960
Speaker 1: there was both direct and hearsay knowledge. There were John's

25
00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,640
Speaker 1: versions of his trip back to Lennox Head on the

26
00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:14,160
Speaker 1: night of Sunday, May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three, his conversations

27
00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,160
Speaker 1: with Bromwyn and the two girls in the house at

28
00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:21,600
Speaker 1: Sandstone Crescent before they were put to bed, His story

29
00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,080
Speaker 1: about Bromwyn having said she wanted a break from the

30
00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:29,040
Speaker 1: children for a few days. The phone calls, he says

31
00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:33,120
Speaker 1: Bromwyn made from the bedroom that night. The car, he

32
00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,760
Speaker 1: says he heard, pull up outside the house on Sandstone

33
00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:42,040
Speaker 1: Crescent soon afterwards to collect her, his explanation for his hasty.

34
00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:43,320
Speaker 2: Departure from the house that night.

35
00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,120
Speaker 1: Then a drive of ten hours or so south on

36
00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,320
Speaker 1: the Old Pacific Highway with Crystal and Lauren and the

37
00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:54,320
Speaker 1: pet dog until their arrival the next morning in Sydney.

38
00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,639
Speaker 1: All of these things were known to Bromwan's friends and family,

39
00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,519
Speaker 1: but they were told and retold in dribs and drabs

40
00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:09,359
Speaker 1: important facts were not known at all. For example, John's

41
00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,280
Speaker 1: sudden arrival at his former wife's home in the Southerland

42
00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,079
Speaker 1: shire of Sydney on the morning of the drive from

43
00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,120
Speaker 1: Lennox Head, and the plea he made to that woman's

44
00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,079
Speaker 1: mother in law, whom he had never met, to look

45
00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,520
Speaker 1: after the girls. As John said, he had an important

46
00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:26,200
Speaker 1: job to do.

47
00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,040
Speaker 3: My daughter in law, Jenny was out and I was

48
00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:32,240
Speaker 3: not sure where Brad was.

49
00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,760
Speaker 1: In episode four, a voice actor for Joan Mason read

50
00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:38,480
Speaker 1: parts of her police statement.

51
00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,040
Speaker 3: I answered the door and I saw a man who

52
00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:45,280
Speaker 3: introduced himself as Winfield. I don't remember his first name,

53
00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:47,520
Speaker 3: but I recalled. He told me that he had been

54
00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,720
Speaker 3: Jenny's first husband. I saw that he had two young

55
00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,920
Speaker 3: girls with him. I remember both these young girls were

56
00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:55,400
Speaker 3: dressed in pajamas.

57
00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:56,840
Speaker 2: I remember this man.

58
00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,280
Speaker 3: Winfield asked me could he leave the two girls. He

59
00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:02,960
Speaker 3: was in Sydney to do a big job. He said

60
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,400
Speaker 3: something about being in the building game and he had

61
00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,360
Speaker 3: to go and see someone about a job. He said

62
00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,800
Speaker 3: that he had been driving all night. He said he

63
00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:14,160
Speaker 3: needed to leave the children with someone. I recall telling

64
00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,200
Speaker 3: him that he could leave the kids there and I

65
00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,120
Speaker 3: would tell Jenny when she came home. He left the

66
00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,679
Speaker 3: children with me and I looked after them until Jenny

67
00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:22,640
Speaker 3: arrived back home.

68
00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,719
Speaker 1: Those details would only come to light in the weeks

69
00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:32,160
Speaker 1: after John's interview at the Ballana Police Station on August five,

70
00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,839
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, as Detective Sergeant Glen Taylor tracked down

71
00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:41,280
Speaker 1: more and more people to talk to. Andy Reid's wife,

72
00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,080
Speaker 1: Michelle had made notes on different pieces of paper over

73
00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,400
Speaker 1: the five years, notes of what she had been told

74
00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:50,880
Speaker 1: by John and what she had been told by others

75
00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,360
Speaker 1: who talked to John, But nobody had written all of

76
00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:58,360
Speaker 1: John's words down until Glenn Taylor asked John to come

77
00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,800
Speaker 1: to the police station four normal interview.

78
00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,920
Speaker 4: The interview has commenced at age fifty two am. For

79
00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,440
Speaker 4: the purpose of the tape record, Can everyone present state

80
00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:10,200
Speaker 4: their full name?

81
00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,480
Speaker 2: Arm Detective Sergeant Glenn William Taylor.

82
00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:20,040
Speaker 1: Detective Senior Constable Wayne Temby introduced himself, and John followed.

83
00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,520
Speaker 2: Suit Jonathan Winfield.

84
00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:27,480
Speaker 1: The name Wayne Temby will be familiar to listeners back

85
00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,760
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety three, when it was the detective Sergeant

86
00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:35,600
Speaker 1: Graham Diskins's job to investigate Bromman's disappearance. Wayne Temby was

87
00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:39,880
Speaker 1: a more junior officer on the case. He answered to Discan.

88
00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:47,080
Speaker 1: The two investigations Detective Discins then Detective Taylor's, were starkly different.

89
00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:52,440
Speaker 1: Whereas no statements were taken from anyone in nineteen ninety three,

90
00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:57,120
Speaker 1: when Discin was running the investigation, Glenn Taylor was determined

91
00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,840
Speaker 1: to interview as many people as he could find, get

92
00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:02,719
Speaker 1: their statements on the record, and put them into a

93
00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:03,680
Speaker 1: brief of evidence.

94
00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,839
Speaker 4: Do you agree, mister Winfield, that there are no other

95
00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,960
Speaker 4: persons present in the interview room other than the people

96
00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,120
Speaker 4: that have just introduced themselves?

97
00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:15,000
Speaker 2: Yes?

98
00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:15,440
Speaker 5: I do.

99
00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,839
Speaker 4: And do you agree that the only door to this

100
00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:23,120
Speaker 4: interview room is directly to your left, which is in

101
00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:28,520
Speaker 4: a closed position. Now, yeah, mister Winfield. As I've already

102
00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:33,520
Speaker 4: explained to you, Detective Temby and I are making inquiries

103
00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,440
Speaker 4: in relation to the disappearance of your wife, Browan Joey

104
00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:42,279
Speaker 4: Winfield on or about the sixteenth of May nineteen ninety

105
00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,560
Speaker 4: three from Lennix Head. We're going to ask you some

106
00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:50,640
Speaker 4: further questions about this matter. These questions and any answers

107
00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:54,279
Speaker 4: that you care to give to those questions will be

108
00:06:54,440 --> 00:07:00,200
Speaker 4: recorded electronically, both on video and audio. Cassette tapes as

109
00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,360
Speaker 4: the interview takes place. Do you understand that?

110
00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:05,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

111
00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,680
Speaker 1: In this episode, which follows the revelations in the two

112
00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:14,320
Speaker 1: subscriber only episodes of eleven and twelve, you are going

113
00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,560
Speaker 1: to hear John Winfield in his own words. You are

114
00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,040
Speaker 1: not hearing John's voice. We've got a voice actor for this,

115
00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:27,280
Speaker 1: but you are hearing Glenn Taylor's distinctive voice for this

116
00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:31,520
Speaker 1: podcast series. Glenn agreed to read from the transcript of

117
00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,360
Speaker 1: the interview that he did with John, but first, here's

118
00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:39,280
Speaker 1: Glenn at his home in Ballina in March twenty twenty one.

119
00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:44,000
Speaker 1: I was meeting the former homicide detective for the first time.

120
00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,320
Speaker 1: Let's go back to the interview that you did with

121
00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:52,720
Speaker 1: Jonathan Winfield. There must have been a bit of anticipation,

122
00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,040
Speaker 1: on a bit of build up, and you go into

123
00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:01,680
Speaker 1: that and how did his demeanor striking concerned that the

124
00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,000
Speaker 1: evidence have a week later to.

125
00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,160
Speaker 2: Lead to chargers. We believe he should put him my

126
00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:09,680
Speaker 2: electronic We called it HEAVI you.

127
00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,840
Speaker 1: He was cooperative and came to the interview with you

128
00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:21,400
Speaker 1: and detected timby voluntarily es. I asked him about the

129
00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,920
Speaker 1: pros and cons of interviewing the person of interest, a

130
00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:29,000
Speaker 1: man whom Glenn regarded as a clear and present suspect

131
00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:34,280
Speaker 1: ahead of interviews of everyone else. Remember when Glenn Taylor

132
00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:38,880
Speaker 1: interviewed John, it was August nineteen ninety eight. Lauren and

133
00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,600
Speaker 1: Crystal were ten and fifteen, and John was no longer

134
00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:47,000
Speaker 1: in contact with Bromwan's brother Andy Reid, nor with Bromwin's

135
00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:52,520
Speaker 1: sisters Kim Marshall and Melissa Reid. John had stopped talking

136
00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:58,640
Speaker 1: to Bromwin's cousin, Megan Reid. The families were estranged. Bromwin's

137
00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:03,120
Speaker 1: loved ones were deep suspicious of John. In the interview,

138
00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,600
Speaker 1: are you looking at, for example, a folder that is

139
00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:08,760
Speaker 1: in front of you, a long list of questions that

140
00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:09,800
Speaker 1: you prepared?

141
00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:15,599
Speaker 2: Of what we did. We certainly went over the movements.

142
00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,760
Speaker 6: Of himself when he arrived back at the house and

143
00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:22,800
Speaker 6: what was discussed, and he again a Lexid that she

144
00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,160
Speaker 6: was seen this mysterious fan call and leaving the house

145
00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,319
Speaker 6: and not saying where she's going already ing and then

146
00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:34,880
Speaker 6: why he would suddenly just make a decision to take

147
00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,040
Speaker 6: the key, King still in there, jamas put in the car,

148
00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:40,600
Speaker 6: are they in your clothes? And then God in the

149
00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,920
Speaker 6: family car that she was sitting positional back to Sydney.

150
00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,640
Speaker 1: The timeline of the investigation by Glenn Taylor shows that

151
00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:54,040
Speaker 1: Jonathan Winfield was the first cab off the rank, the

152
00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,880
Speaker 1: first person to be formally interviewed. I think he's still wanted.

153
00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,839
Speaker 4: To project in the interview that he was concerned for her,

154
00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,480
Speaker 4: and then he had nothing to hide, he'd done nothing wrong.

155
00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,160
Speaker 2: We tried not to lead in his stay and untain

156
00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:12,920
Speaker 2: and when you were sitting there opposite.

157
00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,720
Speaker 1: Him in the media like that, which is being electronically recorded,

158
00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,320
Speaker 1: as you're getting the answers and hearing his explanations for

159
00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,440
Speaker 1: certain things that you might have found.

160
00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,960
Speaker 2: Suspicious, but you're keeping an open mind.

161
00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:30,080
Speaker 1: Were you being persuaded that perhaps this wasn't suspicious, that

162
00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,280
Speaker 1: she had just started a new life.

163
00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,480
Speaker 4: Where would she go, how would she fund herself to

164
00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:40,160
Speaker 4: do these things? Loan's ever seen us since or none

165
00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,240
Speaker 4: of her bank accounts had ever been touched, and she's

166
00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:44,839
Speaker 4: never attempted to make contact with the kids.

167
00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:46,959
Speaker 2: We went right through.

168
00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:52,199
Speaker 7: Everything that he allegies happened about his marriage and going

169
00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,960
Speaker 7: down to Sydney to do work, and then finding out

170
00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,400
Speaker 7: that prominent move back into the family own.

171
00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:04,520
Speaker 1: Did you if I any people who were antagonistic or

172
00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:09,480
Speaker 1: potentially enemies of bronwin who may have caused her harm.

173
00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:13,559
Speaker 2: Nay not. Why I hope he talks to me. You

174
00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:18,400
Speaker 2: never know, Jonathan Winfield, he was never formally Indian.

175
00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,199
Speaker 4: Back in the addition with mister Gash he has spoken

176
00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,040
Speaker 4: didn't but he was never formally anyviewed by a WI

177
00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,319
Speaker 4: of electronic recording or eveything statement taken from him.

178
00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,080
Speaker 2: But he will have to agree to come in and

179
00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:31,920
Speaker 2: talk to you all. Now, No, he didn't.

180
00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:36,800
Speaker 4: But he's saying that she just walked down in the

181
00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,200
Speaker 4: family homeland. She's just a missing person now, and that

182
00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,760
Speaker 4: she's left the home that have her own lanes. It

183
00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:48,920
Speaker 4: would likely make it more suspicious if you said, no on,

184
00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,400
Speaker 4: I'm not going to participate in any Indian because he's

185
00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,680
Speaker 4: always wanted to come across that she left the home

186
00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:56,200
Speaker 4: that night.

187
00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:57,560
Speaker 2: Never did he send.

188
00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:01,640
Speaker 1: Again and how to strike you in that interview, I

189
00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,160
Speaker 1: believe he wanted to put himself across as wanting to

190
00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:06,800
Speaker 1: assist the police.

191
00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,760
Speaker 4: He didn't ever indicate that he wanted to be leading

192
00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:10,479
Speaker 4: he represented.

193
00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,840
Speaker 1: Now let's return to the nineteen ninety eight police interview

194
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:39,119
Speaker 1: with John Winfield.

195
00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,839
Speaker 2: I'm just going to read this onto the record here,

196
00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,080
Speaker 2: and if you understand it, I'll just get you to

197
00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:51,240
Speaker 2: acknowledge that the statement made by you accurately sets out

198
00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:55,080
Speaker 2: the evidence which you will be prepared, if necessary, to

199
00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,440
Speaker 2: give in court as a witness. The statement is true

200
00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,200
Speaker 2: to the best of your knowledge and belief, and you

201
00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,439
Speaker 2: make it knowing that if it is tended in evidence,

202
00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:08,400
Speaker 2: you shall be liable to prosecution if you are rawfully

203
00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:12,640
Speaker 2: stated in it anything which you know to be false

204
00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,959
Speaker 2: or do not believe to be true. Do you give

205
00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:17,679
Speaker 2: an undertaking to tell the truth?

206
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:23,160
Speaker 8: In his interview, Yeah, Yeah, John confirmed that he was

207
00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:27,120
Speaker 8: still living at the house in Sandstone Crescent with Lauren

208
00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:27,840
Speaker 8: and Crystal.

209
00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,520
Speaker 2: The experienced bricklayer said he was not working.

210
00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,040
Speaker 4: Do you agree that prior to the commencement of this

211
00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,360
Speaker 4: interview I told you that I wanted to have a

212
00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,839
Speaker 4: conversation with you about the disappearance of your wife at

213
00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:47,040
Speaker 4: Lennox Head on or about the sixteenth of May nineteen

214
00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:47,839
Speaker 4: ninety three.

215
00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:49,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

216
00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,680
Speaker 1: John answered the early questions with what, in my view

217
00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:58,920
Speaker 1: reads like an offhand or somewhat disinterested tone. It seems

218
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,960
Speaker 1: that Glenn was trying to build rapport, gently rolling the

219
00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,720
Speaker 1: arm over with a series of easy questions at the start,

220
00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,760
Speaker 1: when were they married, What was Bromwin's surname before they

221
00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:12,280
Speaker 1: were wed?

222
00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:14,600
Speaker 2: Where did they live when.

223
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,360
Speaker 1: They first went to Lenox Head from the Qunella Shire?

224
00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:22,160
Speaker 2: When was Lauren born? He wanted John to get comfortable.

225
00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,120
Speaker 4: Can you give us any names that she used to

226
00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,560
Speaker 4: associate closely with in the early nineteen nineties?

227
00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:30,960
Speaker 2: Close friends?

228
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:37,600
Speaker 9: Denise Barnard, probably the next door neighbor, Debbie Nolan.

229
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,920
Speaker 2: Do you know where Denise? I haven't seen. Yeah.

230
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,360
Speaker 9: I see Denisa around town occasionally talk to her, but

231
00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:51,560
Speaker 9: I don't know where she's living, either Ballino or Lennox Head.

232
00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:56,400
Speaker 1: I have talked to Denise about her limited contact with

233
00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:01,320
Speaker 1: John after Bromin disappeared. Have you formed view about whether

234
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:03,880
Speaker 1: he did murder Roman?

235
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:04,840
Speaker 10: Yes? I have.

236
00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,000
Speaker 2: Do you know when you formed a view like that? Right?

237
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,600
Speaker 10: But then I've always had that view.

238
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,640
Speaker 1: Did you effectively cut ties with John back then because

239
00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:16,200
Speaker 1: of that view?

240
00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,040
Speaker 10: Yes, not that he would have ever made an effort

241
00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,000
Speaker 10: to be in contact with anyone. Really, He's not that

242
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,120
Speaker 10: sort of person. He would have been happy. I think

243
00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:28,640
Speaker 10: once it all died down a little bit, when Lauren

244
00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,320
Speaker 10: was at school. If it was ever in the paper

245
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,320
Speaker 10: Missing Person's Week Roman would appear, she'd be removed from school.

246
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,760
Speaker 10: She wouldn't be there, So he's just kept her protected

247
00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:42,600
Speaker 10: all that time as well. High school, she was never

248
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,640
Speaker 10: there when anything was in the paper. I could never

249
00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,560
Speaker 10: approach her say remember me, I mean she was little.

250
00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:50,720
Speaker 10: Maybe she remembers me.

251
00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:51,360
Speaker 11: I don't know.

252
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,160
Speaker 10: When I see her now, she's identical to a mom

253
00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:54,800
Speaker 10: from behind.

254
00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:57,040
Speaker 2: Do you ever talk to her?

255
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:05,200
Speaker 10: I didn't ever want to. I don't know, bring it

256
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,280
Speaker 10: up and pass my thoughts on to her, because obviously

257
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:13,120
Speaker 10: she still believes her dad. And what would you say,

258
00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:17,480
Speaker 10: what haven't you mummy? I mean no, I've just did

259
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:21,080
Speaker 10: never go there, and we were never encouraged to see

260
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,880
Speaker 10: her after Bromwin disappeared by John. John just shielded those

261
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:30,080
Speaker 10: kids and nobody saw them. And he's very private.

262
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,000
Speaker 1: I guess it's possible to look at that with an

263
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:37,560
Speaker 1: understanding that he doesn't want his children to be reminded

264
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:38,920
Speaker 1: by rumormongers.

265
00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:39,480
Speaker 2: Sure.

266
00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,480
Speaker 1: Now back to the nineteen ninety eight interview by Glenn

267
00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:46,000
Speaker 1: Taylor of John Winfield.

268
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,960
Speaker 4: Okay, the next person just said was a lady called.

269
00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:54,440
Speaker 9: Nolan was it. Yeah, Debbie Nolan. Actually her name is

270
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,400
Speaker 9: really Debbie Hall. She's really my next door neighbor.

271
00:16:59,000 --> 00:16:59,440
Speaker 2: Okay.

272
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,400
Speaker 1: Deb was one of the first people to contact me

273
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:08,480
Speaker 1: about doing a podcast investigation into Bromwin's suspected murder. You

274
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,640
Speaker 1: first heard her in the earliest episodes, and deb stays

275
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,480
Speaker 1: in touch, ringing and emailing me with information that she

276
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,199
Speaker 1: hears around the community of Lennox Head.

277
00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:22,080
Speaker 2: And I thought, you know what, You've got to get

278
00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,040
Speaker 2: away from this guy. You you call that miserable and

279
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:24,919
Speaker 2: he's controlling.

280
00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,480
Speaker 12: And I did used to say to her from when,

281
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,399
Speaker 12: you know, when she'd had first crying sessions.

282
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,760
Speaker 10: About him out here, And I say, Brown, you can't

283
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:34,280
Speaker 10: live like this.

284
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:36,000
Speaker 2: You've got to get away from him.

285
00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:37,960
Speaker 1: Oh but I've got nowhere to go, and I'll have

286
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,320
Speaker 1: no money and never And that went.

287
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:40,960
Speaker 2: On for a while.

288
00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:47,320
Speaker 9: Apart from that, Oh wait a minute, there's another girl.

289
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,600
Speaker 9: I know someone spoke to her, but I can't even

290
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:51,920
Speaker 9: remember her second name.

291
00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:53,840
Speaker 2: I know Graham spoke to her.

292
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,000
Speaker 1: The Graham that John is referring to is the then

293
00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:02,320
Speaker 1: detective Sergeant Graham Disco and John was speaking about the

294
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,480
Speaker 1: woman that we are calling Joan. She has been concerned

295
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,239
Speaker 1: about her real name being published. The first time you

296
00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:15,280
Speaker 1: heard her was in episode two. I'm not going to

297
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:20,360
Speaker 1: identify you by your name in this podcast, but your

298
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:21,359
Speaker 1: voice will be heard.

299
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, are you okay with that? And I understand

300
00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:26,679
Speaker 2: that you've got personal reasons?

301
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:32,679
Speaker 1: Where would you like to start talking about your friend Brongwa.

302
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,600
Speaker 9: She loves to kill so that there's no way she

303
00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:41,640
Speaker 9: willingly go off and leave her kids.

304
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,960
Speaker 4: Okay, Okay, We're going to move on a little bit now.

305
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:52,240
Speaker 4: Between nineteen ninety and say early nineteen ninety three, Yeah,

306
00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,440
Speaker 4: what was happening in your family life?

307
00:18:55,280 --> 00:19:00,200
Speaker 9: Oh well, we moved in the house in January nineteen ninety.

308
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:02,680
Speaker 2: My mother died.

309
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:09,159
Speaker 9: In September nineteen ninety, bronwin A was pregnant again. She

310
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,399
Speaker 9: had an abortion in I can't remember if that was

311
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,280
Speaker 9: ninety one or something, either ninety or ninety one, I

312
00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:20,439
Speaker 9: just can't remember. I mean, we were going through a

313
00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,879
Speaker 9: pretty tough time. I mean, like when mom died, I

314
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,200
Speaker 9: took it pretty tough, and sort of she got pregnant,

315
00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:32,320
Speaker 9: which wasn't planned, and we decided, you know, we weren't

316
00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,320
Speaker 9: going to have any more kids because at that stage,

317
00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,280
Speaker 9: you know, we had three kids really living with us.

318
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:43,800
Speaker 2: We had my eldest daughter, Jodie Glenn Taylor. Circled back

319
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,560
Speaker 2: to the abortion. How did you How did Bromin feel

320
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,560
Speaker 2: about that? I don't know. I sort of, like I said,

321
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:53,520
Speaker 2: my mom died that year.

322
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,240
Speaker 9: I was really close to my mom, and I was

323
00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,920
Speaker 9: probably I don't know, I mean took it.

324
00:19:59,400 --> 00:19:59,879
Speaker 2: I don't know.

325
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,879
Speaker 9: See, mum died in September nineteen ninety. Yes, that was

326
00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,240
Speaker 9: around about the time that she got pregnant. I think

327
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:13,080
Speaker 9: by memory, around about that time, alright, and it was

328
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,840
Speaker 9: just sort of too much for us to cope with.

329
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 9: So we talked about it. We had three kids at

330
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,280
Speaker 9: that time and that was enough.

331
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:26,480
Speaker 4: Was there a point in time somewhere between say, Christmas

332
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,280
Speaker 4: in nineteen ninety two in March from ninety three where

333
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,320
Speaker 4: your marriage started to deteriorate?

334
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:33,560
Speaker 5: Oh?

335
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:35,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that's what's happened.

336
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,080
Speaker 9: That's what happened, you know, sort of sort of virtually

337
00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,520
Speaker 9: as soon as Lauren got off to school, you know.

338
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,400
Speaker 2: Can you tell us about that all? Well? She reckons,

339
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:47,119
Speaker 2: she reckons.

340
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,359
Speaker 9: She told me just before we separated that she had

341
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,000
Speaker 9: a nervous breakdown in the in the January of nineteen

342
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,240
Speaker 9: ninety three. All right, and I said to her, you know,

343
00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,320
Speaker 9: what's a nervous breakdown? I've heard of it, but can

344
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,040
Speaker 9: you tell me what it is? You know, I sort

345
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,560
Speaker 9: of didn't understand, but she reckoned. She had a nervous breakdown,

346
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,879
Speaker 9: and she went to see the doctor in Lennox. I

347
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,959
Speaker 9: don't know if it was doctor Watson or doctor Hughes.

348
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,240
Speaker 9: I don't know which one it was, but she went

349
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,080
Speaker 9: to one in Lennox and apparently she was being treated

350
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:24,560
Speaker 9: for depression, you know, like a nervous breakdown. Now, whether

351
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,359
Speaker 9: that's true or not, I don't know, but that's what

352
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:28,000
Speaker 9: she told me.

353
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 2: You know, where did you have these discussions?

354
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,000
Speaker 9: You know what It's like you sort of round the

355
00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,960
Speaker 9: house and you're sort of talking, and you know, what's

356
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 9: going on with our marriage, that sort of this sort

357
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:42,400
Speaker 9: of stuff.

358
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:44,560
Speaker 2: Did this go over some weeks?

359
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 9: Well, Lauren went off to school on what say, the

360
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,400
Speaker 9: first of February and ninety three, I think whatever day

361
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,959
Speaker 9: school started she started. Then she was still working in

362
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,959
Speaker 9: that job at the time, and virtually from that moment

363
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,280
Speaker 9: that was when she said to me, one of these days,

364
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 9: I'm going to move out. I drove Lauren and Bronwin

365
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 9: down to the school because I had a big day

366
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,879
Speaker 9: sort of starting up at school, and you know, things

367
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,639
Speaker 9: weren't sort of things were a bit funny, you know.

368
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:16,240
Speaker 2: I think I.

369
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 9: Drove Lauren to school every day for the first week,

370
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,720
Speaker 9: you know, with her mum. And I can remember her

371
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 9: going her mum walking to school with her and I said, gee,

372
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:29,879
Speaker 9: that took a long time, you know, because she was

373
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 9: in therefore, it was probably fifteen minutes or so. And

374
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 9: she said she came back and said, I just had

375
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 9: to tell the teacher that we're separating.

376
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:43,199
Speaker 2: What did you feel about that?

377
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:49,280
Speaker 9: I was naturally surprised, you know, I mean, fair enough.

378
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 9: I meant we weren't getting on particularly well. But I mean, geez,

379
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 9: plenty of marriages go through funny times. I mean, we

380
00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,800
Speaker 9: were never sort of fighting in front of the kids,

381
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 9: sort of hitting each other or anything like that.

382
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 4: You know.

383
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,120
Speaker 9: See what what's been suggested to me, and I don't

384
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,720
Speaker 9: know whether it's right, is when she had this bit

385
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,359
Speaker 9: of a job she had, it was virtually the first

386
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 9: job she really had where she had money to herself,

387
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 9: because she kept all the money herself, you know, and

388
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 9: she got that little bit of independence. You know, it's

389
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 9: been suggested to me sort of went to her head

390
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,440
Speaker 9: with that little bit of independence. She had her own money,

391
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:30,360
Speaker 9: and sort of she was.

392
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:30,919
Speaker 2: Off, you know.

393
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 1: The detective asked John whether Bromwin was taking any medication

394
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 1: at the time.

395
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 2: Well, that's like I said.

396
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 9: She said to me that she'd been treated for a

397
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 9: nervous breakdown in January nineteen ninety three by one of

398
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 9: the doctors in Lenox, you know, but I never saw

399
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 9: her take any medication.

400
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 1: Later, Glenn Taylor would go to see the doctors Bromwin

401
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: was known to have consulted, and nobody had any record

402
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 1: or recollection of treatment of roman for a nervous breakdown.

403
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 1: Brommin's brother Andy is adamant that he would have been

404
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 1: told by his sister if she had suffered a mental

405
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:16,479
Speaker 1: or nervous breakdown. He is sure that John's claim is false.

406
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 4: Leading up to this separation, what did she want you

407
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 4: to do? Did she want you to sleep in another

408
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 4: room or move out of the house.

409
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 9: No, No, we slept No, I mean we've slept in

410
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 9: the same bed. I mean it's sort of funny, like

411
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 9: her moods would change on a daily basis. She's not

412
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 9: what you'd call a bad tempered, sort of aggressive sort

413
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 9: of person, but she's sort of pretty stubborn. I'm probably

414
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 9: more the bad tempered one, you know. I shoot off

415
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 9: a lot of steam. We were getting along fine, and

416
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 9: then sort of she'd sort of say, all of a sudden,

417
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 9: there's problems in our marriage again.

418
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 2: I mean, I told Graham, Graham, you're talking about detective Sergeant.

419
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 9: I told Graham, like when she was working in that shop,

420
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 9: I told you about she'd been working with this bloke

421
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 9: in there called.

422
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 2: I don't know his name. All I know is.

423
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 9: His name's Jacko, right, And apparently from what her girlfriends

424
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 9: had told me that she'd sort of sort of fallen

425
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 9: for this Jacko bloke, you know. And I think Graham

426
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,719
Speaker 9: contacted him at Barrera. I'm not one hundred percent, but

427
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,640
Speaker 9: I know someone told me his mother lives at Barrera

428
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 9: in Sydney. So anyway, apparently while she was still living

429
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 9: with me, she was all about, he's got a motorbike

430
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,159
Speaker 9: and he was picking her up and sort of taking

431
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 9: her for rides up to Byron Bay and back on

432
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 9: the motorbike.

433
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 2: You know. But this is all I never saw it

434
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 2: for myself.

435
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 9: I mean, she'd actually told me that, you know, but

436
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 9: that was while she was working in that shop, Eden's

437
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 9: Takeaway and she was working with this jack guy.

438
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,360
Speaker 2: Did you ever see this Jacko? Yeah? I know him. Yeah.

439
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 9: What did he look like a sort of tall guy

440
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,919
Speaker 9: with black curly hair, heavy sort of what was he

441
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 9: doing for John?

442
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: He was working in the takeaway shop, he was in

443
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: the same place. Yeah, yeah, and he and you said

444
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 2: he had a motor sockle.

445
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 9: Yeah, well she told me they used to go riding

446
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 9: up to Byron Bay and stuff. You know.

447
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 1: In episode three, you heard Broman's brother Andy Reid, recalling

448
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 1: John's agitation that his estranged wife was hanging out with

449
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: Gary Jackson and had supposedly been seen on Jacko's motorbike.

450
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 5: All of a sudden, John's ringing me, Oh, she's going

451
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 5: there and around town. She's in another relationship with some bloke.

452
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 5: She's on the back of a motorbike. He was very

453
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 5: flustered about that. He didn't handle that well because Bromwold

454
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 5: remain say, John's upparked up the road at Byron Street

455
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 5: after the spot after John had rung and obviously there

456
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 5: must have been some confrontation because had rung me to

457
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 5: say I was accusing me of other relationship.

458
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,360
Speaker 1: My colleague and friend Dave Murray asked Jacko about this.

459
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 2: Did you ride a motorbike back then? Gary? Yeah, I

460
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 2: used to be a bike by that. Okay, do you

461
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 2: remember if you ever gave Bromwin a lift on a motorbike?

462
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 2: I'm going to give Glenn Taylor pressed John on whether

463
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 2: Bromwin had money to herself A sure. Yeah.

464
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 9: I never saw the account, but I actually think Graham

465
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 9: was the one that told me about this. Excuse me.

466
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 9: I think it was still in her maiden name. It

467
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 9: was John's fourth familiar mention of Graham Graham discan.

468
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 2: Okay, we'll just move on a little bit now.

469
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 4: I think the records indicate that you separated some time

470
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 4: in March of nineteen ninety three, formally separated. Yeah, yeah,

471
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 4: Can you tell us about what happened, how the separation

472
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 4: actually came about on the day.

473
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 2: I know the basics, but okay.

474
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 9: Well, she was living at she was living at Byron

475
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 9: Street forty forty something. She suddenly decided to live out

476
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 9: in the family house. Yeah, and she'd been living therefore.

477
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 9: I honestly can't remember. Maybe maybe a couple months. I

478
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 9: don't know. I can't remember. She moved out and took

479
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 9: the kids with her, and I stayed in the house.

480
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 9: So she moved out on her own accord. What did

481
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 9: she take with her as much as she wanted. She

482
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 9: virtually took as much as she wanted. What about furniture, Well,

483
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 9: took lounges, I remember. I think she took the I

484
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 9: know she took the bed because I was sleeping on

485
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 9: the floor there on the single mattress.

486
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 2: Virtually she took the lot.

487
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: According to John, the move was a surprise. He said

488
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: he was driving with Bromwin after dropping Lauren at school

489
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: when she told him that she'd called a removalist.

490
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 9: And then all of a sudden, these removalists turn up.

491
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 9: I was told that morning that she was moving out.

492
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 9: I gave her a check for the bond money because

493
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 9: she didn't have any money, so she said, but oh,

494
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 9: you know, I think it was for six or seven

495
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 9: hundred bucks. I think I can't remember now, because apparently

496
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 9: she told me she had no money. I couldn't stop her,

497
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 9: you know, so the kids had to have a place

498
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 9: to live. So I gave her money for the bond,

499
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 9: and I made it out to the lady, the landlord

500
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 9: down there, Shirley Taylor. But later on I found out

501
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 9: that she did have money, because Graham told me she

502
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 9: had a grand in the bank, loaded up and off

503
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 9: she went.

504
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 2: Was that fairly amicable, was it?

505
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 9: I remember she told the kids the night before that

506
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 9: she was going to move out, and I just sort

507
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 9: of shrugged it off. I says, that's just one of

508
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 9: her sort of you know statements again, you know. And

509
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 9: then sure enough, like that morning I saw her, she said,

510
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 9: the removaluss is coming at two o'clock.

511
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: John wasn't working as a bricklayer when Bromwin told him

512
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: she was leaving him. He had injured his neck in

513
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: January nineteen ninety three. John told the detective that his

514
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: neck was in a brace for almost ten weeks.

515
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 4: After she moved out to the flat in Byron Street.

516
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 4: How long did you stay in the house in Sandstein

517
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 4: Crescent before you.

518
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 2: Went to Sydney. Oh.

519
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 9: I went to Sydney virtually just to work, just a

520
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 9: change of environment. I might have been there from either

521
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 9: two to four weeks. I really can't remember. I'd have

522
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 9: to look it up.

523
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: It is not clear from the interview whether John's comment

524
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: about having been there for two to four weeks is

525
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: a reference to how long he stayed alone at Sandstone

526
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: Crescent after Bromin had moved out in late March, or

527
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: whether it is a reference to how long he stayed

528
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: in Sydney while working for Glenn Webster on the build

529
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: of his house in Illawong in the Shire. In Glenn

530
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: Webster's statement to police, he specifically recalls working with John

531
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: on the Anzac Day public holiday in nineteen ninety three.

532
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 2: April twenty five.

533
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: He confirmed that his return to the house on the

534
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: Sunday night in May was his first visit back from Sydney.

535
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 4: So you lived with Sydney to work, Yeah, to work,

536
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 4: and then the next contact you had with your wife

537
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 4: would have been the night she the night she actually.

538
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 2: Jumped in the car. Yeah, that's it when missing.

539
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, well did you communicate with your wife just say

540
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 4: that you were coming back up to Lennox Head follow.

541
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 9: I had occasionally had phone calls. I remember one particular

542
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 9: phone call you. I used to ring her occasionally. I

543
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 9: don't remember if it was once a week or once

544
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 9: every two weeks. At that stage she was after me

545
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 9: to put some sort of one hundred and twenty five

546
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 9: bucks or something a month into Lauren's account, which I

547
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 9: was sort of negotiating with her to do like a

548
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 9: child support sort of thing.

549
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: John recalled a conversation he had on the telephone with

550
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 1: Bromwin when she was living in the flat on Byron

551
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: Street and she had a visitor, her good friend and

552
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: former neighbor, deb Hall.

553
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 9: This Debbie, Debbie Hall at the time, was visiting her

554
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 9: just for a cup of tea or something, you know,

555
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 9: and all of a sudden, she just exploded at me

556
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 9: on the phone, you know, sort of went off for

557
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 9: no reason, just to sort of make some sort of

558
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 9: make me out to be, you know, a monster to

559
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 9: this Debbie. You know, because this Debbie mentioned to me,

560
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 9: you know, I don't know why she went off at

561
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 9: you on the phone that day, because there's no reason too.

562
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 9: And then later on they had lunch together and apparently

563
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 9: she said to Debbie Hall something about being a really

564
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 9: good actress or something.

565
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 2: This was how long before the sixteenth of May.

566
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 9: I was still in Sydney, I don't know. Could have

567
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 9: been two weeks before, could have been a month before.

568
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 9: I used to ring up from time to time just

569
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 9: to see how the kids were and stuff.

570
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 2: Whilst you were in Sydney. Yeah.

571
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 4: And when you were communicating with her, did she give

572
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 4: you any demands of that propertysettlement?

573
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 2: No, not at all.

574
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 4: Anything about going that she wanted to move back into

575
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 4: the family home.

576
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 9: No, No, I never said anything about it at all.

577
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 9: That's why it was such a shock when all of

578
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 9: a sudden she rang well, I rang her up.

579
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 10: And.

580
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 9: She'd moved out of wherever she was at forty two

581
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 9: and she was back in the fair home. You know,

582
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 9: I think it was the sixteenth. It was a Saturday

583
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 9: or Sunday, wasn't it? Because I came back on the

584
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 9: Sunday and she left on the Sunday night about midnight.

585
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 2: Is that right?

586
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: There are some interesting disclosures in this answer from John.

587
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,800
Speaker 1: He was He says shocked that Bromwin had moved back

588
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: into the family home, but it seems he was not

589
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: shocked when she moved straight back out again, and his

590
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 1: timing is off too. He is saying that she left

591
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:40,760
Speaker 1: on the Sunday night about midnight. Previously, however, he told

592
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 1: Detective Discan and Bromwin's friends and family that it was

593
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 1: about nine nine thirty pm.

594
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:48,720
Speaker 2: Up to that point.

595
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 4: Had you been contacted by a solicitor or had any

596
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 4: documents served upon you?

597
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 2: No about family law?

598
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 9: No, no, just let me think. Well, she didn't know

599
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 9: my address in Sydney, so I couldn't have had any

600
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 9: Now I'm sure I didn't.

601
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,760
Speaker 4: Are you aware that she was in contact with a

602
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 4: within he solicitous.

603
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 9: Well only through what Graham told me. Graham told me

604
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 9: that she'd spoken to a guy in Ballina, Tony Manering,

605
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 9: and I think she'd spoken to a guy Byron Bay

606
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 9: called I can't remember his name now. And later I

607
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 9: found out that she's spoken to and I told Graham this.

608
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 9: I found out from a neighbor of mine that she'd

609
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 9: spoken to a guy from Mulin Bimbi or Ocean Shaw's Way.

610
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 1: The solicitors to whom John is referring to here, Tony

611
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 1: Mannering and Graham Holland, were consulted by Bromman about her

612
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 1: legal rights, but in the end she decided to retain

613
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 1: Chris mcdebittt, who was based in Lismore. And you've previously

614
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: heard that Broman telephoned Chris mcdebott at his home on

615
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 1: the Sunday afternoon because of her concern about John's imminent

616
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 1: arrival at the house. Romman had made an appointment to

617
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: see Chris mcdebitt in his Lismore office on the Monday

618
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: morning for further legal advice, but she neither canceled nor

619
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,760
Speaker 1: turned up, and he never heard from her again.

620
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 2: In my view, this.

621
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 1: Was one of the most concerning and early signs of

622
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: possible foul play, and Graham Diskin knew about it within

623
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks of Roman's disappearance, but no statement

624
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,760
Speaker 1: was taken from the solicitor or anyone back in nineteen

625
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: ninety three. There is another striking feature for police. John

626
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 1: really should have been a person of interest in his

627
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 1: estranged wife's disappearance at a very early stage. Instead, it

628
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: is as if John has the inside running on the

629
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 1: police investigation. By the detectives in nineteen ninety three, John

630
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 1: had gleaned a lot of potentially significant information, and he

631
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: said he was told all of it by Graham Discan,

632
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: Broman's bank account balance, Bromman's legal representation, including Tony Mannering,

633
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: and chrismcdebitt. Broman's telephone call to chrismcdebitt on the Sunday afternoon.

634
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 1: They're just some of the things that John volunteered. He

635
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: had been told by Graham discin. Sometimes detectives deliberately share

636
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: information with a person of interest or plant information for

637
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: the suspect to find. And it's a good strategy as

638
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 1: it can prompt panicky reactions and conversations when telephones are

639
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 1: being bugged and listening devices are in houses and cars.

640
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: But none of that was occurring with John in nineteen

641
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,839
Speaker 1: ninety three. Police were unaware while they were sharing key

642
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: intelligence from their own investigation that the person soaking it

643
00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 1: up might have been the killer. For detectives SEENI you

644
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 1: Consortable Wayne Temby, who was in the interview room at

645
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 1: Ballina Police station with Glenn Taylor in nineteen ninety eight,

646
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 1: parts of this must have felt like deja vous. It

647
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: would be interesting to know now how Temby, who is

648
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 1: long retired, reflects on the first and the second police investigation.

649
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: He has declined to comment for this podcast series. As

650
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: Glen Taylor took a breather, Detective Temby chimed in, how

651
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 1: did you become aware when you were in Sydney that

652
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:36,280
Speaker 1: she moved out of the flat?

653
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,399
Speaker 9: I rang up and she wasn't there. So I rang

654
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 9: the family home, all right, and she answered the phone,

655
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 9: and that.

656
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 2: Was what a few days before?

657
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 9: You come up on the day before, I think the

658
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 9: day before, I see. And what did you say to her? Oh,

659
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 9: I can't remember. I said, just surprise she was back

660
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 9: in the family home. You know, I just sort of

661
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,879
Speaker 9: shut up to see what was going on. I mean

662
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 9: she had keys. She always had a key to the

663
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 9: family home anyway, you know. I mean she, her and

664
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 9: I were the only two people bar my father, are

665
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 9: the only ones who have got a key to the

666
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 9: family home.

667
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 2: Actually the house is deadlocked.

668
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 9: Actually, I think I put a deadlock, and I think

669
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 9: from memory she got a locksmith in to get rid

670
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 9: of the deadlock.

671
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 2: I think from memory.

672
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: You heard from Bromwin's neighbors, Chris and Lloyd Hargrave about it.

673
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: In episode three.

674
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 13: She called out to me from our yard on her

675
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 13: side of the house. When I approached Bromwin, she asked

676
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 13: me if I had a key, and I told her

677
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 13: I didn't. She said that she couldn't get into the

678
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 13: house because John had changed all the locks. She was

679
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,240
Speaker 13: very upset and crying and said that John had threatened

680
00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 13: to take the children from her, the same as he

681
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 13: he had done to his first wife and taken Jodie

682
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 13: from her.

683
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 14: Bromman said that she was unable to get into the

684
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 14: house and she appeared to be very upset at the time.

685
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 14: It was at this time that Bronman told Chris and

686
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 14: I that Jonathan Winfield had threatened that he was going

687
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 14: to take the children from her. It was not long

688
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 14: after this that the locksmith arrived, and I'm aware that

689
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,720
Speaker 14: Bronman moved back into the house.

690
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 2: Bromwin's neighbors were interviewed by Glenn Taylor on September twelve,

691
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety eight, five weeks after John's interview.

692
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 4: When you made a rageous to come back up on

693
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 4: the sixth Street of May, Yeah, Had you communicated to

694
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:44,720
Speaker 4: her that you were coming?

695
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 2: Had you told her? I might have said, yeah, I'm

696
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 2: coming home, Yeah, something like that.

697
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: John confirmed that Bromwin had kept control of the family

698
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 1: car while he was away in Sydney until the Sunday night,

699
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: and she disappeared and he left in the Ford Falcon

700
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 1: with the girls. Glenn Taylor quiz John about his arrival

701
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 1: into Banana on that fateful night.

702
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 9: He was dark. I don't know, six o'clock. Say, I

703
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,360
Speaker 9: came straight here to the police station. See what was

704
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 9: your intention to come to the police station, because I

705
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 9: was going back there I saw it. Didn't want any shit.

706
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 9: I just wanted to cover myself.

707
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:26,800
Speaker 2: Really.

708
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 9: I told the guy downstairs what had happened. I, you know,

709
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,399
Speaker 9: a family breakup, all this sort of business. She moved out,

710
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 9: she moved back into the family home. I'm just going

711
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 9: to go back there now. And you know, it was

712
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 9: just sort of like I didn't want her ringing up

713
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 9: and saying, you know, he's here bashing me, sort of

714
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 9: stuff like that, you know, So I sort of came

715
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 9: to the police first. I told him what I was

716
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 9: going to do, and he said, okay. I saw him

717
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 9: take a note of it and went.

718
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:04,280
Speaker 4: Had there been any complaints no from your wife about

719
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 4: physical contact between yourself and her up to that point?

720
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 2: No?

721
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 9: No, Look, the law is always on the side of

722
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 9: the woman, isn't it. Really, So I just sort of

723
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 9: covered myself. I thought, well, when I come up, I thought, well,

724
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 9: you know, I don't want to sort of go in

725
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 9: there and sort of her start screaming and stuff like that.

726
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 9: So I didn't know what I was going to expect

727
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 9: when I got there, because you know, I just didn't know.

728
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,800
Speaker 9: So I just came in and saw the desk sergeant downstairs,

729
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 9: and I can't remember what his name was actually, but

730
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 9: I spoke to him for probably fifteen minutes, you know,

731
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 9: and I told him the story and I told him

732
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,359
Speaker 9: where I was going, and that was it.

733
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 1: In the police internal running sheet which logged events in

734
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 1: the nineteen ninety three investigation by Graham Diskin, there is

735
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: an entry and it was made by the then Constable

736
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 1: Julie Donovan. The entry states that on May thirty of

737
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,800
Speaker 1: that year, Constable Donovan.

738
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,240
Speaker 13: Verified from Sergeant heart To that conversation did take place

739
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 13: in relation to rights of moving back into house.

740
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,760
Speaker 1: John described the arrangements that were made for his return

741
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: to Lenox. There was the telephone call to get a

742
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: lift from the airport with John Watson, the father of

743
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,839
Speaker 1: a girl called Natalie, one of Jody's friends when they

744
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: were at school together.

745
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 9: I think I rang him, or Jody might have rung

746
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 9: him and said can you pick that up at the airport?

747
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 9: Because I came back with a surfboard, see at a

748
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 9: bit of love. Everything I took to Sydney, I brought

749
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 9: virtually brought back with me, you.

750
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: Know, And that's another interesting disclosure. In my view, it

751
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: strongly suggests that John Winfield was intending to stay in

752
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:19,280
Speaker 1: Lennox for a while. There's no indication in that answer

753
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: that he intended to leave again that same night to

754
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: drive all the way back to Sydney. John described the

755
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 1: short drive on Sunday evening to the house of Becky Maguire,

756
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: another of Jodie's friends from school.

757
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,839
Speaker 9: Because I remember the sergeant downstairs said, you know, you're

758
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 9: better off to have someone with you.

759
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 2: Did you say one of Jade's friends.

760
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:48,720
Speaker 9: Yeah, one of JD's friends, Becky, who's Jody, Jadie's my daughter.

761
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: I just want to pause to make another point here.

762
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 1: While being cross examined by senior lawyers during trial proceedings

763
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 1: over the murder of Christal's AND's wife, Lynn, I realized

764
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 1: that my questioners didn't know some things which, in my view,

765
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 1: they ought to have been aware of before asking me.

766
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 1: It won't be true for everyone, but I grew in

767
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 1: confidence in the witness box when my question has made

768
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 1: an error or demonstrated that they were not across some

769
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 1: of the more obvious details. Now it might have been

770
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 1: a deliberate play by Glen Taylor asking the person of

771
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: interest who is Jody? And it's possible the season detective

772
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: wanted John to think that the cops knew little when

773
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 1: they were really lulling John into a false sense of security.

774
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 1: If it wasn't deliberate, if Glen Taylor did not know

775
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 1: where Jody fitted into the picture in that first interview,

776
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: then in my view, it's not best practice.

777
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 9: Jody's my daughter, right, but she's been out of the

778
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 9: family home for years now.

779
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 2: So you arrived at the only can you tell us

780
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 2: what happened when you were right?

781
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,760
Speaker 9: Yeah, Well, Becky came to the door with me and

782
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 9: we knocked on the door and then and the door opened.

783
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 9: So once the door was open, I walked in.

784
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 1: John repeated the advice that he said he received five

785
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: years earlier from the police sergeant on the front desk

786
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: of the same police station in which he was sitting

787
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: opposite Glenn Taylor and Wayne Temby.

788
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 9: Don't sort of barge in, knock on the door and

789
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 9: sort of walk into the family home. Don't break into

790
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 9: the family home.

791
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 2: That's what he said to me. So I took his advice.

792
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 2: Did bron Win in for the door.

793
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, came straight to the door, opened the door and

794
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 9: I walked straight in. So once I was right in

795
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 9: the door, I said, oh, thanks, beck see you later,

796
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:53,919
Speaker 9: and she just off she went.

797
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 1: There is a discrepancy here. Becky Maguire had to get

798
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: home from Sandstone Crescent. She had been picked up at

799
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: her house by John Watson and John Winfield after they

800
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: left the police station. Becky's statement to police, which was

801
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:14,760
Speaker 1: taken five weeks after John's interview, is rich with detail.

802
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: This is what Becky said happened from the time John

803
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 1: Watson stopped outside the house in Sandstone Crescent to let

804
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: John Winfield and Becky get out of the car.

805
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 15: John Watson drove away. We walked up to the front

806
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 15: of the house and John knocked on the door. The

807
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 15: door opened and Bronwyn and the children were standing at

808
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 15: the door. I can't recall what she was going on about.

809
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,800
Speaker 15: She used to babble on all the time. Bronwin walked

810
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,439
Speaker 15: back into the house towards the kitchen and John gave

811
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 15: the girls a cuddle, and I saw that Lauren was crying.

812
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 15: I saw two suitcases inside the doorway, and John picked

813
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 15: them up and put them in the car. John must

814
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 15: have had a set of keys to the car, because

815
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:58,760
Speaker 15: we then got into the car and he drove me home.

816
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 15: I remember both Crystal and Lauren were standing at the

817
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 15: window inside the house watching as we reversed out of

818
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:08,399
Speaker 15: the driveway. John didn't go inside the house at all

819
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 15: while I was in the house with him.

820
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:12,720
Speaker 2: Well, we were driving back to my house.

821
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 15: John thanked me for coming with him and told me

822
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 15: he was sorry for getting me involved.

823
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:23,479
Speaker 1: Perhaps John Winfield forgot that he drove Becky home. John

824
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 1: Watson's statement makes it clear that he drove away alone,

825
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 1: without Becky or John Winfield.

826
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 2: So Rowin invited you in to come in.

827
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 9: She didn't say come in. I just walked in. But

828
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 9: there was no objection, no objection at all. I mean,

829
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 9: both the kids came and gave me a hug straight away.

830
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:48,479
Speaker 9: Becky just stood at the front door. I just said, oh,

831
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 9: thanks beck and John Watson he drove Becky home.

832
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, yeah, John was waiting out the front.

833
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 4: I know it's a long time ago, but do you

834
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,240
Speaker 4: have any recollection what bronwin was wearing?

835
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 9: I told Graham, but gee, I can't remember. I know,

836
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 9: I think I remember saying to him that she was

837
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,919
Speaker 9: wearing the same clothes that she was wearing at work

838
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 9: that day. Right, had all the furniture that she'd taken before, Yeah,

839
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 9: being moved back in there. Yeah everything, not everything, A lot,

840
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 9: a lot of it, probably ninety percent. I suppose the

841
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 9: rest was it was still down at the unit. Right,

842
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 9: She left it in the unit, and the landlord had

843
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 9: moved it out of the unit and put it put

844
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 9: in the garage for storage, right, I see. And then

845
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 9: I had to go down and get it after a

846
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 9: while because she wouldn't give it to me. But then

847
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 9: after a while she gave it to me because there

848
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:48,720
Speaker 9: was still rent going on the place.

849
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:52,399
Speaker 2: You know. Okay, what happened? Can you take us through?

850
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 5: Now?

851
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 4: What happened from the time you arrived Over the next

852
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 4: few hours, John described having sat down in the dining

853
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 4: room with a cup of tea. He said, Lauren was

854
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 4: sitting happily on his lap. She hadn't seen her dad

855
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 4: for weeks.

856
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:11,359
Speaker 2: That was virtually it.

857
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 9: And then by that time it must have been it

858
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 9: was after dinner because the kids at eden.

859
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:22,799
Speaker 2: What was your wife, Demanda like, sorry, what was she like?

860
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 2: What was her attitude to you?

861
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 9: I don't know, we didn't talk that much. I suppose

862
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 9: she was surprised that I sort of was there, you

863
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 9: know that I rang up the day before from Sydney

864
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 9: and then all of a sudden I was on the doorstep,

865
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:42,280
Speaker 9: you know. So I suppose she was a bit taken aback,

866
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:44,880
Speaker 9: But I mean she didn't really let on that she

867
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 9: was taken aback. I mean, she wasn't hostile or anything

868
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:49,399
Speaker 9: like that.

869
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 1: John's interview is nearing the halfway mark, and we're going

870
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,839
Speaker 1: to unpack more of it in the next episode. There

871
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 1: are some significant loose ends. Here's Glen Taylor describing for

872
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: the podcast how he first became involved in the case.

873
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 2: I was totally unaware of this matter.

874
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 11: Range Andrew Reid and his wife Michelle approached us in

875
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 11: nineteen ninety eight, said look, it's possible to have fresh eyes,

876
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 11: because that had absolutely nothing since that July or August

877
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 11: of nineteen ninety three, nothing had been done, had been

878
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 11: no further developers.

879
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 2: I was a palled that so little had.

880
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 4: Been going back in ninety ninety three, there was saying

881
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 4: any red flags. Say very early on, it's not all

882
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 4: just about conviction. It's the family and the children knowing

883
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:43,360
Speaker 4: what did actually happen to Bromwin?

884
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 2: Where is she?

885
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 1: Glen Taylor's investigation spanned two and a half years and

886
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 1: culminated in an inquest in the nearby town of Lismore

887
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 1: in two thousand and two, and Glenn retired from the

888
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 1: police around this time. What do you try to project

889
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 1: in terms of your own tone and approach?

890
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 2: Well, we still have to maintain a rapport with the person.

891
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 4: You cannot get if you weigh verbally aggressive or directly

892
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 4: put allegations did you murder her wrong in the house

893
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 4: that night? We need to get more information from him

894
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 4: at the time, so we're not going to try to

895
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 4: get directly offside. But when, because we just were still

896
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 4: gathering information and it should have led to at least

897
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:35,800
Speaker 4: a frenzy.

898
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 2: Examination of the home and the car. Do you think

899
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 2: you build a rapport with Grothan? I certainly had a report.

900
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 4: We were still in a fact finding situation where were

901
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:50,360
Speaker 4: still interviewing. There is people we wanted to get on

902
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:53,320
Speaker 4: record because it never been formally put on record before.

903
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 2: What is something occurred, So we certainly had many things

904
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 2: to ask.

905
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 1: You heard Glenn Taylor refer to a lack of any

906
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 1: forensic examination five years earlier. In the initial police investigation,

907
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,279
Speaker 1: I asked doctor Kirsty Wright to look at some of

908
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,800
Speaker 1: the key documents from Romlin's case.

909
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 2: But first a.

910
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 1: Disclosure, I am completely biased about Kirsty and her professionalism

911
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 1: and character. She is a truly incredible forensic biologist, precise,

912
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 1: persistent and intellectually brilliant. Her work over two decades has

913
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 1: solved numerous crimes, and Kirsty has also helped identify the

914
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,840
Speaker 1: remains of many victims of foul play and natural disaster

915
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: in Australia and overseas. Kursey, You've been looking at Romwin

916
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:52,400
Speaker 1: Winfield's case based on police files and other documents that

917
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: have provided. In nineteen ninety three, there was no forensic

918
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: examination of the house where rollin was like seeing live,

919
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:05,760
Speaker 1: or of the family car. What, in your opinion, could

920
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 1: have should have been done at the time.

921
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 12: The first thing they would do is identify what we

922
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 12: call primary and secondary crime scenes. A primary crime scene

923
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 12: could be the Winfield house or it could also be

924
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 12: Bronwin's flat at Lennox Head. It's very important when you

925
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 12: do a criminal investigation that you look at the possibilities

926
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 12: that it is a missing person that supports the suspects

927
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,319
Speaker 12: version of events, or you look for the possibility of

928
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 12: foul play as well, so both scenarios need to be investigated.

929
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 12: Possible secondary crime scene could be the wind Field vehicle.

930
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 12: All of those locations should have been quarantined and forensically

931
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:45,920
Speaker 12: examined as soon as possible.

932
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:49,680
Speaker 1: Now, Madison Walsh is here and she's just finished a

933
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 1: degree in physic science majoring in crime scene investigation.

934
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:59,320
Speaker 16: How long would it have been biable after Brienwin disappeared

935
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 16: before it was a loss cause?

936
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 12: Ideally, with a crime scene, you want to seal it

937
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:08,760
Speaker 12: off as quickly as possible, and that preserves any evidence

938
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 12: that may be there. It preserves any evidence being lost

939
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:16,880
Speaker 12: or contaminated or removed. Ideally, want that crime scene to

940
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 12: be in a state as close as possible to the

941
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:25,240
Speaker 12: suspicious event. Now saying that, there are some forensic evidence

942
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 12: that can remain after an event or even after a cleanup,

943
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 12: so there could be signs of a struggle, damage to

944
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 12: the property, there could be items that could contain biological evidence,

945
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 12: and also urination and defecation is a symptom of strangulation,

946
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:49,800
Speaker 12: so they'd be looking for any signs of those kinds

947
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 12: of biological material that are out of context. If somebody

948
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 12: lives in their own home, they're going to have their

949
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:59,120
Speaker 12: own biological material there. But what they're really looking for

950
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 12: is something that out of place, something that could indicate

951
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 12: a struggle, or something that could indicate something much more

952
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 12: sinister has occurred.

953
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 1: In my podcast Shandy Story, doctor Kirsty Wright exposed the

954
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 1: unforgivable failure of the Queensland Government's DNA testing laboratory to

955
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:21,360
Speaker 1: properly test tens of thousands of samples from crime scenes

956
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:28,400
Speaker 1: going back many years. Kirsty's extraordinary findings and her courage

957
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 1: in that podcast series and in the subsequent Shandy's Legacy

958
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 1: series have triggered major public inquiries and huge reforms. Her

959
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:42,360
Speaker 1: work is having a profoundly positive and enduring impact for

960
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:46,839
Speaker 1: many victims of crime, victims of rapes and murders who

961
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 1: previously had little to no chance of justice because the

962
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:54,480
Speaker 1: DNA lab was failing to detect DNA when it was

963
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 1: right there in minute quantities in the crime scene samples.

964
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: Cherse did that there circumstances of this case as they

965
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 1: presented at the time to police, in your opinion, demand

966
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:10,239
Speaker 1: a proper forensic examination.

967
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:12,279
Speaker 2: Oh, I believe so absolutely.

968
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 12: We've got a young woman, a mother of two that's suddenly,

969
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 12: very suddenly, in unexplained circumstances, has left that should have

970
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 12: been treated with suspicion.

971
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 16: Do you think that there could's been a different outcome

972
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 16: to this case had there been forensic examination immediately after

973
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 16: Brownwin disappeared, Well.

974
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 2: We simply don't know, Madison.

975
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 12: It's definitely a lost opportunity to recover what could be

976
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 12: valuable evidence. Sometimes if a homicide is suspected, it could

977
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 12: just be one single drop of blood or one item

978
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 12: that could point to suspicious circumstances and could identify the offender.

979
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 12: By the delay in the police investigating this and the

980
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 12: fact that there was no suitable forensic examination of those

981
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:04,960
Speaker 12: three areas that I just explained, means that there was

982
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 12: a lost opportunities.

983
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 1: We're going back a long time, though, thirty one years.

984
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 1: What technology existed at that time compared with now, for example,

985
00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 1: DNA analysis and other techniques of trying to discover evidence

986
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:26,800
Speaker 1: where they at a level, at a standard and being

987
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 1: used at that time such that they could have been useful.

988
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 12: Absolutely, forensic science in nineteen ninety three is definitely a

989
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 12: lot different to what we can do with it now

990
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 12: in twenty twenty four, but there was still the ability

991
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 12: to identify somebody with DNA evidence. In fact, convictions were

992
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 12: being made in Australia as far back as nineteen eighty

993
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 12: eight with DNA evidence. There's also fingerprint examination, there was

994
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 12: the location of biological material using luminol testing POLYLTE. It's

995
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 12: the context in which they're found which is informative. So

996
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 12: simply finding Bronwinner's blood or biological material or finding her

997
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 12: fingerprints may be of no value unless there's actual context

998
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 12: to that.

999
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 2: Well, no value if it's found in the house.

1000
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 1: But part of the police case is that Bromlin's body

1001
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:25,080
Speaker 1: must have been concealed in the vehicle. So if for example,

1002
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 1: Bromin's biological material had been found in the boot of

1003
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 1: the vehicle, if that vehicle had been examine and of

1004
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:37,680
Speaker 1: course this is all hypothetical. John has strenuously denied any involvement,

1005
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 1: and he was the one who drove the car, would

1006
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 1: that have been sufficient to make a.

1007
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 12: Difference identifying blood in unusual locations Unusual locations which may

1008
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:54,440
Speaker 12: be consistent with transporting somebody's body from point A to

1009
00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:57,200
Speaker 12: point b absolutely should have been one of the poority

1010
00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:00,080
Speaker 12: areas that the police should have investigated. The other thing

1011
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 12: the police should have done is a forensic examination of

1012
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:07,720
Speaker 12: Jonathan Winfield. Would have been too late to get fingerinyl

1013
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:11,800
Speaker 12: scrapings from him, obviously looking for any sign of Bronwin's

1014
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:15,680
Speaker 12: DNA under his fingern ls, but they could have identified

1015
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 12: whether there was any unusual or unexplained injuries on his body.

1016
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 12: They should have seized Jonathan's clothing, the clothing that he

1017
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 12: wore on the night that Bronwinn disappeared, to look for

1018
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:33,840
Speaker 12: any biological evidence on the clothing or look for any

1019
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:37,240
Speaker 12: signs of damage on the clothing which could be unexplained.

1020
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 1: In your professional opinion, Kirsty, having read now about this

1021
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 1: case based on the official documentation, and having read into

1022
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 1: lots of other cases, what do you say about the

1023
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:56,040
Speaker 1: failure in nineteen ninety three to do any forensic examination

1024
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 1: of house or car given the circumstances of a woman

1025
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 1: who has inexplicably disappeared from her home, her family, her children.

1026
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 12: I think it's unacceptable Pedley, even in nineteen ninety three

1027
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 12: to not forensically examine those locations. Let's balance it out.

1028
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:20,240
Speaker 12: There's two sides to this. Where there's been opportunities lost,

1029
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 12: there's also a lost opportunity to find evidence that could

1030
01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 12: support Jonathan Winfield's version of events as well.

1031
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:34,120
Speaker 1: Is it surprising, knowing what existed back in nineteen ninety three,

1032
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 1: that these things were not done? Oh?

1033
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:40,880
Speaker 12: Absolutely, there were forensic tools there. It's a mother of

1034
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:45,960
Speaker 12: two children suddenly disappears, is never heard from again. There

1035
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 12: are some suspicious circumstances with the movement of her partner.

1036
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:54,959
Speaker 12: It just seems incredible to me that this case wasn't

1037
01:01:55,080 --> 01:01:56,280
Speaker 12: properly investigated.

1038
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:00,240
Speaker 2: You were shocked at that. Oh, absolutely absolutely.

1039
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:05,360
Speaker 12: Even though there was a small delay in reporting Bronwin's disappearance,

1040
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:09,560
Speaker 12: there is still more than enough opportunity for the house,

1041
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 12: the car, and Bronwin's flat to be investigated. Really sad

1042
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 12: for Bronwyn and very sad for her family that they

1043
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 12: never got the answers that they deserve if the police

1044
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 12: had of properly conducted a forensic investigation, and Headley, all

1045
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:30,480
Speaker 12: these years later, they're obviously still searching for those answers.

1046
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:48,120
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as

1047
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:52,920
Speaker 1: a podcast production for the Australian. If anyone has information

1048
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:56,920
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me

1049
01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.

1050
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:07,040
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a

1051
01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bromwyn

1052
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:17,880
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.

1053
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:23,000
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,

1054
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:29,080
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,

1055
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:33,800
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen and Matthew Condon and David Murray.

1056
01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:38,480
Speaker 1: Audio production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio

1057
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 1: and original theme music by Slade Gibson. We have been

1058
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 1: assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation of Bromwin Winfield.

1059
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:49,880
Speaker 2: We can only do this kind of journalism with.

1060
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:53,560
Speaker 1: The support of our subscribers and our major sponsors like

1061
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:58,240
Speaker 1: Harvey Norman for all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps,

1062
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:02,760
Speaker 1: timelines and documents. It's about this podcast and other podcasts

1063
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:06,400
Speaker 1: including The Teacher's Pet, The Teachers Trial, The Teacher's Accuser,

1064
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:10,920
Speaker 1: Shandy Story, Shandy's Legacy, and The Night Driver. Go to

1065
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:17,440
Speaker 1: the Australian dot com, dot au and subscribe