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Speaker 1: Approache production.

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Speaker 2: A warning this podcast contains depictions of extreme violence against children.

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Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advised. Welcome to Real Crime with Adam

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Speaker 2: Shand I'm your host, Adam Shand. Of all the missing

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Speaker 2: persons cases I've covered over the years, one stands out

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Speaker 2: above all others.

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Speaker 3: People have always wanted this case solved because at that

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Speaker 3: time it really took away the innocence of life in

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Speaker 3: Australia in the mid sixties.

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Speaker 2: The disappearance of the Beaumont children, Jane, Anna and Grant

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Speaker 2: on January twenty sixth, nineteen sixty six was unusual, not

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Speaker 2: just in Australia but in the world.

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Speaker 4: Nine year old Jane Beaumont, her seven year old sister Anna,

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Speaker 4: and their four year old brother Grant vanished from Glenelg

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Speaker 4: Beach on Australia Day in nineteen sixty six, and their

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Speaker 4: disappearance remains one of Australia's most enduring ant high profile

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Speaker 4: cold case.

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Speaker 2: The coort of offenders who could snatch three children from

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Speaker 2: a crowded beach and get away with it is vanishingly small.

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Speaker 2: The eye witness accounts of the day from glenell Beach

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Speaker 2: were fragmentary and contradictory. Some saw a young surfer looking

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Speaker 2: man with the children. Others saw an older man with

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Speaker 2: a thin face with swept back hair. The last confirmed

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Speaker 2: sighting was at a local bakery where Jane paid for

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Speaker 2: some food with a one pound note. Whoever gave Jane

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Speaker 2: that one pound note was almost certainly the abductor of

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Speaker 2: the children and probably their killer. South Australia police are

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Speaker 2: out of answers and have probably stopped asking questions.

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Speaker 3: This prime was the worst crime that had been committed.

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Speaker 3: I think in Australian history. People want some closure here.

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Speaker 3: They want to know what happened to those three kids.

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Speaker 2: Fortunately, my guest today, Bill Hayes and Stuart Mullins are

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Speaker 2: still on the case. Their book, Unmasking the Killer of

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Speaker 2: the Beaumont Children has been reissus dude with new critical information.

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Speaker 2: That focus is yet more suspicion on one man, Adelaide

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Speaker 2: businessman Harry Phipps. Bill and Stewart have been kind enough

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Speaker 2: to join me today, can I jents Hello morning. Let

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Speaker 2: me start by understanding who you guys are. Bill tell

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Speaker 2: me your background.

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Speaker 5: My background in my adult years was Armed services in

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Speaker 5: the United Kingdom Police in Australia and then the private

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Speaker 5: investigation field in Australia.

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Speaker 6: And you're a polygraph expert as well.

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Speaker 5: I hesitate the user term expert. I'm this polygraph examiner.

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Speaker 2: Yes, give yourself a bunk up, mate, this is the

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Speaker 2: one chance you get to do it now. Stuart, you

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Speaker 2: come from a recruiting background, that's your business. But you've

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Speaker 2: got a special connection to the Beaumont story.

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Speaker 6: What is it.

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Speaker 7: I was bought in Glenelg in the late fifties, so

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Speaker 7: I'm the same age as Anna, and I lived up

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Speaker 7: the road in Seacum Gardens, which would be four and

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Speaker 7: a half kilometers away. I frequented in the beaches of Seacliff, Brighton,

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Speaker 7: which is my favorite as a kid because they had

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Speaker 7: a jetty you could jump off, and every now and

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Speaker 7: then we'd head down to Collie Reserve. Was a multitude

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Speaker 7: of children playing there, so I knew it well. I

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Speaker 7: knew where Wensley's Bakery was because I frequented there also,

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Speaker 7: So I grew up there and left when I was

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Speaker 7: about twelve years old.

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Speaker 2: And you grew up with that same sense of freedom

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Speaker 2: that led the Beaumonts to allow their children to go

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Speaker 2: down to Collie Reserve at Glenelg on that day. You

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Speaker 2: understand the atmosphere of the times I do.

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Speaker 8: I remembered for me.

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Speaker 7: I was five years old and I went on the

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Speaker 7: bus with the girl next door, she was eleven Roslyn.

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Speaker 7: We took the bus down to Glenelg, just two of us,

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Speaker 7: to go and watch A Hard Day's Night by the

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Speaker 7: Beatles at the Glenelg Cinema, which is not there anymore,

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Speaker 7: but that was by ourselves. And then from there we

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Speaker 7: walked over to Collie Reserve, played around there for a

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Speaker 7: while and when we thought it was ready, got back

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Speaker 7: on the bus and travel, you know, six seven k's

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Speaker 7: back to Seacum Gardens. You know, that's what you did.

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Speaker 7: Parents didn't mind. We had complete freedom, and as a kid,

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Speaker 7: I was quite confident where we all were back in

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Speaker 7: the sixties.

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Speaker 2: Because Bill, you grew up in Northern Ireland, if I'm

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Speaker 2: not mistaken, that's correct, yeah, and so you know what

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Speaker 2: we take for granted here. The peace and security instability

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Speaker 2: was not something that was on offer to Northern Irish children.

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Speaker 5: That's correct. I grew up in even though we were inverted.

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Speaker 5: Cole was peaceful during my childhood. The resolve was the

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Speaker 5: undercurrent of sectarianism and the patridge between different parties in

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Speaker 5: Northern Ireland. There was all was big fights and troubles

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Speaker 5: and yeah, quite a violent place.

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Speaker 6: So I've got to ask you.

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Speaker 2: You two come from very different worlds, how did you

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Speaker 2: come together on this case.

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Speaker 7: I was working with Alan Whittaker, which you may know

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Speaker 7: as an author in his own right, good friend of

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Speaker 7: mine from college. He was working on the book Searching

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Speaker 7: for the Beaumont Children back in two thousand and five.

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Speaker 7: It was released in two thousand and six. Because John

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Speaker 7: Wiley and Sony's publishers ass can he write the first

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Speaker 7: definitive account. He asked me to come on board to

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Speaker 7: help him show him around the streets of Glenelg. The

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Speaker 7: book sold well. People came forward. Most of them are

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Speaker 7: a bit looney, but there was one lady in particular

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Speaker 7: that came forward that said her former father in law

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Speaker 7: fitted the description handed out pound nights, which he didn't

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Speaker 7: know until she read that book.

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Speaker 8: I followed it.

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Speaker 7: I found it very credible, and one thing led to

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Speaker 7: another until I came to a point where I was

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Speaker 7: hitting a brick wall. Would have only been about a

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Speaker 7: year later, and I was hitting the brick wall with

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Speaker 7: certain detectives from SAPOL. And I suppose, as Bill said

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Speaker 7: in the book, they don't like being told by members

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Speaker 7: of the public how to do their job, because I

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Speaker 7: was hitting a brick wall when he told me that

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Speaker 7: I was beating my head up against the brick wall.

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Speaker 8: I asked a.

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Speaker 7: Few detectives or former detectives moston matters was one which

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Speaker 7: was the first detective to meet and distraught mister and

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Speaker 7: missus Beaumont that fateful day, and Ken Thawson, the former

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Speaker 7: head of Major Crime, that both recommended Bill Hayes, and

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Speaker 7: so I got in to see him, and I used

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Speaker 7: the moston and the former head of Major Crime's names,

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Speaker 7: and so he saw me. I don't think he would

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Speaker 7: have seen me if it wasn't for those two names,

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Speaker 7: because he's heard every goddamn theory about the Beaumont children.

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Speaker 2: Because Bill, if there's one thing police hate more than

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Speaker 2: members of the public getting involved, it's ex police. They

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Speaker 2: hate ex detectives meddling. So what was your experience you

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Speaker 2: worked in sa POL, You were aware of the case

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Speaker 2: over the years, what did you know about it?

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Speaker 5: Well, I'd actually worked when I was a uniform police

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Speaker 5: officer in My partner at the time was a guy

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Speaker 5: called Mark.

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Speaker 1: I want us you sooner, but he was a cousin

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Speaker 1: of the Balmont's children.

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Speaker 5: Back then, I had a fair idea of what happened

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Speaker 5: and the story because Mark.

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Speaker 1: Would relate it to me. We would talk about it later.

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Speaker 5: As a detective in the Major Crimes Cord, I was

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Speaker 5: chucked into a room full of boxes and told to

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Speaker 5: have a read, which was something they did with most

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Speaker 5: new detectives in the Major Crimes Cord give the mo

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Speaker 5: old called cases and boxes and then have a read.

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Speaker 1: I got the bon boxes and stretched the surface.

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Speaker 5: To be truthful, I only had about a half a

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Speaker 5: day in there, but I read enough to interest me.

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Speaker 2: Because what struck me looking at this case was the

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Speaker 2: absence of eyewitness accounts. A beach full of people, hot

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Speaker 2: summer's day, everyone's down the beach, there's nothing else to do.

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Speaker 2: And when we did our show on the Hunters, we

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Speaker 2: looked at this case. We work with you guys. Then

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Speaker 2: as well was the fact that a queue of people

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Speaker 2: were there to give their eyewitness accounts or some piece

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Speaker 2: of information. A lot of people didn't get to give

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Speaker 2: their evidence. What impact do you think that had on

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Speaker 2: the early investigation of the case.

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Speaker 1: It would be difficult to measure the definity impact.

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Speaker 5: Suffice to say that one of those hundreds who turned

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Speaker 5: away may well have held.

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Speaker 2: A key, because we saw in the days after that

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Speaker 2: police were door knocking all the way up and down

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Speaker 2: the street. They got very, very little, and they were

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Speaker 2: left with just these fragmentary eyewitness accounts and the really

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Speaker 2: cryptic account from Wenzel's Bakery where Jane goes in with

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Speaker 2: the pound note and she buys more food than would

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Speaker 2: have been expected if she was just buying it for

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Speaker 2: her siblings. So it seems like the abductor was either

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Speaker 2: with them or in the shadows or somewhere about.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't far away.

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Speaker 5: I'm not sure that he actually took them there or

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Speaker 5: met them there after they had left his house.

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Speaker 1: He would have been there or nearby.

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Speaker 5: Because they didn't hang around outside Menzel's after buying enough

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Speaker 5: food for six people, six adults.

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Speaker 7: And the key point there was I remember talking it

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Speaker 7: must have matters. This is before I met Bill, and

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Speaker 7: he said it was a pivotal piece of information back

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Speaker 7: then and it still is now. Everything revolves around that

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Speaker 7: pound note, because who was wealthy enough to part with

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Speaker 7: a pound note to children? Apparently he didn't know and

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Speaker 7: that pound note. Being a kid in the sixties, I

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Speaker 7: saw a pound note in my mum's purse, you know,

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Speaker 7: and it's a wow factor. And as a child, or

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Speaker 7: could you think of how many lollies and ice creams

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Speaker 7: can I buy? Buckets? That's the way a child thinks.

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Speaker 7: And it would have been the same way as Jane,

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Speaker 7: Anna and Grant. Yes, they were very sensible. Jane was

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Speaker 7: very mature for age, but the pull of a pound

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Speaker 7: note would really attract any child.

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Speaker 6: And you're right.

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Speaker 2: People did not give out those pound notes, willy nilly.

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Speaker 2: There was one individual who was noted for giving out

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Speaker 2: pound notes all the time. That was Harry Phipps. Stuart,

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Speaker 2: You've been looking at him for a long time. Who

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Speaker 2: was Harry Phipps.

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Speaker 7: Harry Phipps was a very wealthy industrialist. He started castel

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Speaker 7: at North Plimpton from basically scratch and he built it up.

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Speaker 7: The height of its fame would have been in the eighties.

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Speaker 7: They made let's say, rims for Remitsubishi. He made car parts,

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Speaker 7: he made those little well put it this way. The

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Speaker 7: fountain in Adelaide that was done through castell lois so

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Speaker 7: huge business and he ran it up until the eighties

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Speaker 7: where he stood down. He was an acting chairman and

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Speaker 7: then he stood down, but he ran it for since

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Speaker 7: the nineteen fifties. He started with Sega Manufacturing in Gilbert Street,

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Speaker 7: I think in Adelaide, and as it become bigger and bigger,

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Speaker 7: he moved out to North Plympton and I must admit

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Speaker 7: nothing was out there at that time, nothing but he could.

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Speaker 7: He had a wonderful business knack of what would be successful,

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Speaker 7: so he bought the plot of land out there and

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Speaker 7: built this huge factory.

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Speaker 2: And in your investigation of him, you found he had

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Speaker 2: some particular sexual placlivities which I think irrelevant to your investigation.

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Speaker 6: What were they?

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Speaker 8: Well, this has been corroborated.

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Speaker 7: Before I met Bill, I knew that I needed to

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Speaker 7: corroborate this. So one name Angela Phipps, who was the

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Speaker 7: former wife of Hayden Phipps. I spoke to her. She

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Speaker 7: was the former daughter in law of Harry Phipps.

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Speaker 6: So Hayden was Harry's son.

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Speaker 7: Harry was the eldest son. And she told me that

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Speaker 7: Hayden said that his father had something to do with

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Speaker 7: the disappearance of the Beaumont children, and that he was

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Speaker 7: sexually abused, and that Harry used to dress up in

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Speaker 7: women's satin clothing which he got sexually aroused with, and

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Speaker 7: he abused not only Hayden but a few others. So

225
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Speaker 7: it was a pedophile active for But one thing she said,

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00:12:07,721 --> 00:12:09,801
Speaker 7: and she read in the book was that he was

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00:12:09,881 --> 00:12:13,561
Speaker 7: wealthy and he used to give out and tip in

228
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Speaker 7: pound notes, pound notes and five pound notes, mostly one

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Speaker 7: pound notes, and that was the clincher. It was like

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Speaker 7: the pound note was the thing that brought it all together. Yes,

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Speaker 7: there was a description, but it was the pound note.

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Speaker 7: So from there I followed on until I came to Bill,

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Speaker 7: and I remember Bill's office.

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Speaker 8: He said, is all this corroborated?

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Speaker 7: And he said yes, and I told him about the

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Speaker 7: pound note, which really raised his eyebrows.

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Speaker 2: Stuart, I'm not being critical here is an enthusiastic game,

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Speaker 2: but it certainly was. Then no criticism. You've dealt with

239
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Speaker 2: this style of investigator all your life. You needed more

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Speaker 2: corroboration of what Hayden was saying.

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Speaker 6: What did you do well?

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Speaker 5: The first thing I did before I accepted the task

243
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Speaker 5: was to tell Sut that I'd be doing everything possible

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Speaker 5: to prove that everything that he'd said thus far was untrue,

245
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Speaker 5: because that's the test in the arena and certainly with police.

246
00:13:07,601 --> 00:13:11,041
Speaker 5: So I set out to do that. I initiated by

247
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Speaker 5: reading everything that was that Stuart had, particularly the book

248
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Speaker 5: Searching for the ball Monts that Alan would he get written,

249
00:13:19,161 --> 00:13:22,641
Speaker 5: which was interesting to me, and then I felt the

250
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Speaker 5: next step for me would have to be fine Hayden

251
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Speaker 5: and speak to him face to face, which we did.

252
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Speaker 5: We met him up in Queensland.

253
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Speaker 6: He was a trouble cell.

254
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Speaker 5: He was, but when I met him, I'd be given

255
00:13:37,441 --> 00:13:41,321
Speaker 5: an impression of Hayden that was not positive in the

256
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Speaker 5: least and didn't really know what to expect, well open

257
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Speaker 5: to look after himself. So I wasn't frightened, but I

258
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Speaker 5: was a bit concerned about what I was walking into.

259
00:13:52,601 --> 00:13:55,441
Speaker 5: I guess would be the best term to use. But

260
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Speaker 5: what I met was a man who was very well spoken,

261
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Speaker 5: very intelligent, sober and well presented, nothing like I expected

262
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Speaker 5: to meet.

263
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Speaker 6: And what story did he have to tell?

264
00:14:09,401 --> 00:14:14,841
Speaker 5: Well, basically he told Hayden's story at the time, which

265
00:14:15,041 --> 00:14:18,521
Speaker 5: was that he was working at the Bonny Alliott, Glenelg

266
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Speaker 5: on that day, the twenty sixth of January nineteen.

267
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Speaker 1: Sixty six, which was a Wednesday.

268
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Speaker 5: He come home at lunchtime and had gone into the

269
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Speaker 5: backyard where he went into what he called a cobby.

270
00:14:34,081 --> 00:14:36,881
Speaker 5: Now was it a cubby, as we would normally understand

271
00:14:36,881 --> 00:14:39,881
Speaker 5: a covey as a couple of planks of wood against

272
00:14:39,881 --> 00:14:41,201
Speaker 5: the fence like a lean to.

273
00:14:41,881 --> 00:14:43,121
Speaker 1: But he used to go in there and have a

274
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Speaker 1: sly smoke.

275
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Speaker 5: He remember back then fourteen or fifteen year old children

276
00:14:47,841 --> 00:14:49,401
Speaker 5: didn't smoke in front of the parents.

277
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Speaker 1: He gets your bump smacked.

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Speaker 5: Anyhow, he went and had his sly smoke, and he

279
00:14:53,721 --> 00:14:56,481
Speaker 5: saw that Harry was in the other side of the

280
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Speaker 5: yard at the driveway loading his car up a Pontiac prisionne,

281
00:15:03,761 --> 00:15:07,201
Speaker 5: burning it with surfboard bags. He felt that in the

282
00:15:07,281 --> 00:15:12,601
Speaker 5: surfboard bags where Harry's satin clothes, so therefore Harry was

283
00:15:12,761 --> 00:15:15,681
Speaker 5: loading them up. He'd made them at the house, which

284
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Speaker 5: he used to do, putting him in the surfboard bags

285
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Speaker 5: which castle Lay used to make at that time, and

286
00:15:22,561 --> 00:15:26,681
Speaker 5: he would take them to the cottage at Castelloy, which

287
00:15:26,721 --> 00:15:30,881
Speaker 5: was Harry's place, his safe place where he store his

288
00:15:31,201 --> 00:15:35,601
Speaker 5: fetish material, that clothing. It's important to say he in

289
00:15:35,721 --> 00:15:39,521
Speaker 5: have become more important even later that when Harry handled

290
00:15:40,281 --> 00:15:44,641
Speaker 5: satin or saw it worn, or anything to do with satin,

291
00:15:44,801 --> 00:15:47,601
Speaker 5: or even some of the colors he liked, he would

292
00:15:47,601 --> 00:15:52,401
Speaker 5: become extremely sexually excited, so excited to the point where

293
00:15:52,401 --> 00:15:58,201
Speaker 5: he's been seen to spontaneously ejaculate. That's how exciting he

294
00:15:58,241 --> 00:16:01,481
Speaker 5: would be. And here he is that day handling his

295
00:16:02,121 --> 00:16:06,801
Speaker 5: satin dresses that put him in the or bags and

296
00:16:06,921 --> 00:16:11,001
Speaker 5: into the backyard walked three little children, who will say

297
00:16:11,601 --> 00:16:14,881
Speaker 5: now were the bomb On children. And the children had

298
00:16:14,921 --> 00:16:18,121
Speaker 5: spoken to Harry for a short time and he taken

299
00:16:18,161 --> 00:16:24,561
Speaker 5: them inside the house. They remained inside the house. Harry

300
00:16:24,601 --> 00:16:28,921
Speaker 5: had come out a few minutes later and continued to

301
00:16:28,921 --> 00:16:32,881
Speaker 5: load up his car. He left in his car and

302
00:16:33,041 --> 00:16:37,441
Speaker 5: Hayden went inside the house. There was no signs of

303
00:16:37,481 --> 00:16:40,521
Speaker 5: disturbance in the house. The children were in the house,

304
00:16:41,161 --> 00:16:45,161
Speaker 5: There was no smells that suggest anything bad had happened

305
00:16:45,161 --> 00:16:50,121
Speaker 5: in there, and the front door was wide open, which

306
00:16:50,281 --> 00:16:52,841
Speaker 5: he made him assume that the children must have left

307
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Speaker 5: through the front door because they weren't in the house.

308
00:16:56,201 --> 00:16:58,641
Speaker 1: And that for Hayden was the end of it.

309
00:16:59,241 --> 00:17:00,961
Speaker 5: It wasn't the end of it for us, though, because

310
00:17:00,961 --> 00:17:04,321
Speaker 5: we were concerned that Hayden he was telling his stuff,

311
00:17:04,321 --> 00:17:05,840
Speaker 5: but he wasn't telling is everything.

312
00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:10,921
Speaker 1: He was holding Shelty back anyhow. From there we take up.

313
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:16,441
Speaker 5: The story at Wenzel's because if the children had left

314
00:17:16,441 --> 00:17:19,201
Speaker 5: the house when we thought they did, they'd walked down

315
00:17:19,241 --> 00:17:22,880
Speaker 5: to Wendels, which would take about eight to ten minutes.

316
00:17:23,001 --> 00:17:24,440
Speaker 1: We've walked it. You've walked to.

317
00:17:24,441 --> 00:17:27,961
Speaker 5: Two adam as I know, and the timing is perfect

318
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,401
Speaker 5: given the time. We know that they're left to rot

319
00:17:30,441 --> 00:17:33,561
Speaker 5: the Collie Reserved, and he would have walked down there

320
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,880
Speaker 5: and bought the food with a one pound up.

321
00:17:36,481 --> 00:17:39,920
Speaker 2: I should say that Harry's house was about three hundred

322
00:17:39,921 --> 00:17:42,880
Speaker 2: meters away from Collie Reserve where the kids were last seen.

323
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Speaker 7: It was one hundred and ninety meters in direct sight

324
00:17:45,561 --> 00:17:46,880
Speaker 7: of where the Ron Davil was.

325
00:17:47,801 --> 00:17:50,321
Speaker 2: You know your stuff on this case, Stuart. I'll take you,

326
00:17:50,441 --> 00:17:54,121
Speaker 2: as the gospel one hundred and ninety meters. And we

327
00:17:54,201 --> 00:17:56,640
Speaker 2: know that the kids went down to the beach the

328
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Speaker 2: previous day. Jim, their father had dropped them down there.

329
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,921
Speaker 2: The following morning, as Nancy is sending the kids off

330
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Speaker 2: to go to the beach for the the kids are

331
00:18:07,001 --> 00:18:11,561
Speaker 2: teasing Jane. Jane's got a boyfriend. Jane's got a boyfriend.

332
00:18:11,921 --> 00:18:16,161
Speaker 2: Something happened that day before. So if it was Harry

333
00:18:16,561 --> 00:18:21,080
Speaker 2: that had taken them the next day, perhaps he'd made

334
00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:22,561
Speaker 2: contact the day before.

335
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,600
Speaker 5: Yes, there's no doubt about he groomed him. The day

336
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:30,521
Speaker 5: he took them wasn't the first day he'd met them.

337
00:18:30,561 --> 00:18:33,561
Speaker 5: That was quite obvious from the eyewitness accounts of what

338
00:18:33,721 --> 00:18:35,481
Speaker 5: happened when the children arrived.

339
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:35,720
Speaker 1: At the reserve.

340
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,480
Speaker 5: And it seems that this boyfriend thing may well have

341
00:18:40,561 --> 00:18:44,840
Speaker 5: been a lure for Jane, where he had a younger

342
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:49,201
Speaker 5: accomplice involved in the work that he did to try

343
00:18:49,241 --> 00:18:53,561
Speaker 5: and get confidence of the children to do what he did. So, yes,

344
00:18:54,001 --> 00:18:56,801
Speaker 5: we believed that he did meet them the day before.

345
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Speaker 1: And he may have had others with him at that time.

346
00:19:00,721 --> 00:19:04,521
Speaker 2: Hayden went further. He talked about his own abuse at

347
00:19:04,521 --> 00:19:06,520
Speaker 2: the hands of his father. What did he tell you?

348
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,521
Speaker 7: This is all before I met Bill, but I needed

349
00:19:09,561 --> 00:19:12,561
Speaker 7: to meet Hayden. I met him in his apartment in

350
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,801
Speaker 7: Broadbeach and I spent about two hours with him and

351
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:18,801
Speaker 7: a lot of it was to talk about his abuse.

352
00:19:18,961 --> 00:19:22,200
Speaker 7: I said, you don't have to expand on it. I

353
00:19:22,281 --> 00:19:25,561
Speaker 7: know what it's like to talk about abuse because it

354
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:27,920
Speaker 7: brings back up the mad memories that he had. But

355
00:19:27,961 --> 00:19:31,200
Speaker 7: he did talk about his abuse. It started when he

356
00:19:31,281 --> 00:19:35,321
Speaker 7: was at least three to four years old, and he

357
00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:38,480
Speaker 7: could hear the Swiss of Saturn rubbing together, which was

358
00:19:38,521 --> 00:19:42,281
Speaker 7: his father wearing satin dresses, and he'd hear that coming

359
00:19:42,321 --> 00:19:44,761
Speaker 7: down the hallway at the early hours of the morning,

360
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,001
Speaker 7: and he knew what he was in stall for was

361
00:19:48,041 --> 00:19:50,360
Speaker 7: a sexual abuse. And this went on from the age

362
00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:53,840
Speaker 7: to three to four to round the age of thirteen,

363
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,801
Speaker 7: when he got strong enough to protect himself. Up until

364
00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,281
Speaker 7: that point, you've got to think that Hayden was sexually

365
00:20:00,321 --> 00:20:03,761
Speaker 7: abused at least at least three to four times a week.

366
00:20:04,561 --> 00:20:08,161
Speaker 7: So he went through hell and I'm surprised he lived

367
00:20:08,201 --> 00:20:10,680
Speaker 7: as long as he did. But what he told me,

368
00:20:11,281 --> 00:20:16,801
Speaker 7: I had no hesitation to disbelieve him. And the statistics

369
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,641
Speaker 7: also come to bear that between two and six percent

370
00:20:20,721 --> 00:20:23,600
Speaker 7: of individuals that say they were sexually abused a lying.

371
00:20:23,721 --> 00:20:27,401
Speaker 7: There's roughly a ninety four percent chance that somebody who

372
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,960
Speaker 7: says they're sexually abused are telling the truth. So he

373
00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:34,041
Speaker 7: was telling the truth. And he also talked about his

374
00:20:34,120 --> 00:20:39,001
Speaker 7: father handing out pound notes. And the more we moved forward,

375
00:20:39,041 --> 00:20:42,121
Speaker 7: there was other people that came forward about Harry Phipps

376
00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:42,960
Speaker 7: that we know today.

377
00:20:43,681 --> 00:20:47,801
Speaker 2: Hayden also painted a traumatic picture of home life, which

378
00:20:47,961 --> 00:20:52,961
Speaker 2: was characterized by Harry going off the deep end, firing guns,

379
00:20:53,241 --> 00:20:56,720
Speaker 2: beating his wife, beating Hayden, and as you say, it

380
00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,160
Speaker 2: went on until Hayden was big enough to stand up

381
00:20:59,201 --> 00:21:02,281
Speaker 2: to his father, which shows, if it's true, how cowardly

382
00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:02,720
Speaker 2: he was.

383
00:21:03,721 --> 00:21:04,041
Speaker 6: With that.

384
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,920
Speaker 7: I spoke to two former seeing members of CASTELLOI because

385
00:21:08,921 --> 00:21:11,761
Speaker 7: I needed to get more background before I approached Bill.

386
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,241
Speaker 7: Both of them, and they hadn't seen each other for years,

387
00:21:15,241 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 7: said that Hayden and Wayne hated their father with a

388
00:21:19,921 --> 00:21:22,880
Speaker 7: passion and you couldn't put it down to a workplace issue.

389
00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:26,440
Speaker 7: Something must have been happening at home. When I spoke

390
00:21:26,521 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 7: to both of them about the sexual abuse, they said

391
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:29,960
Speaker 7: that would answer the question.

392
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:35,721
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, Hayden is not around anymore to confirm or add

393
00:21:35,761 --> 00:21:37,080
Speaker 2: to this story what happened to him?

394
00:21:37,681 --> 00:21:38,401
Speaker 1: Well, Hayden.

395
00:21:39,241 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 5: We did see Hayden one more time on one more occasion,

396
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,241
Speaker 5: which he can discuss if you wish. But Hayden basically

397
00:21:45,441 --> 00:21:50,160
Speaker 5: passed away of I suppose he called natural causes. He

398
00:21:50,321 --> 00:21:53,960
Speaker 5: wasn't a well made in many aspects. He lived a

399
00:21:53,961 --> 00:21:57,921
Speaker 5: hard life and he passed away quite young.

400
00:21:58,001 --> 00:22:01,801
Speaker 8: Hold as he stood, Oh, I don't think he would

401
00:22:01,801 --> 00:22:02,880
Speaker 8: have been in his fifties.

402
00:22:02,961 --> 00:22:04,201
Speaker 1: He's in his fifties, his.

403
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,480
Speaker 5: Mid fifties, so he passed away of natural causes in

404
00:22:07,521 --> 00:22:10,400
Speaker 5: his mid fifties. I think he was back living in

405
00:22:10,481 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 5: Queensland at that time.

406
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 7: We've got his medical certificates, his medical reports because he'd

407
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:17,001
Speaker 7: passed away, they were passed.

408
00:22:16,761 --> 00:22:17,201
Speaker 8: On to us.

409
00:22:17,681 --> 00:22:21,640
Speaker 7: The myriad of prescription medication he was on on surprise again,

410
00:22:21,801 --> 00:22:25,241
Speaker 7: he wasn't debt sooner. It was unbelievable and a lot

411
00:22:25,281 --> 00:22:28,401
Speaker 7: of it were to do. And the doctor's report. He

412
00:22:28,521 --> 00:22:31,041
Speaker 7: was talking about sexual abuse in that report.

413
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,321
Speaker 2: So there's a history of drink and drugs. I believe

414
00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:38,120
Speaker 2: that might have suggested a self medicating of trauma.

415
00:22:38,961 --> 00:22:41,561
Speaker 1: No doubt, no doubt. He gave every aspect.

416
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,160
Speaker 5: We've learned a lot about pedophiles and pedophile victims in

417
00:22:45,201 --> 00:22:48,120
Speaker 5: the last seventeen to eighteen years of working on this,

418
00:22:48,921 --> 00:22:53,201
Speaker 5: and he gave every sign of being abused.

419
00:22:54,921 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 2: So there we have Hayden with a very vivid eyewitness

420
00:22:58,201 --> 00:23:02,041
Speaker 2: account of seeing children at the Phipps residence near Collie

421
00:23:02,041 --> 00:23:06,241
Speaker 2: Reserve and Glenelg. The next vital piece of information came

422
00:23:06,281 --> 00:23:09,321
Speaker 2: from two young men who were asked to dig a

423
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 2: hole at the Castelloi's site at North Plimpton, Stewart.

424
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:14,201
Speaker 6: Can you tell us what happened then?

425
00:23:15,321 --> 00:23:20,321
Speaker 7: Well, a gentleman called David First contacted Alan Whittaker with

426
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:25,561
Speaker 7: information and Allan Whittaker contacted me about two brothers that

427
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,921
Speaker 7: were asked by Harry Phipps to dig a grave size hole.

428
00:23:28,961 --> 00:23:31,161
Speaker 7: Now that's in their words, it's not ours making it up.

429
00:23:31,281 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 7: A grave size hole at the back of the Castelloy

430
00:23:33,561 --> 00:23:36,880
Speaker 7: factory three days after the children went missing. Now they

431
00:23:36,921 --> 00:23:39,561
Speaker 7: went missing on a Wednesday. They were asked to dig

432
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,640
Speaker 7: a hole, a grave size hole at the back of

433
00:23:41,721 --> 00:23:44,920
Speaker 7: Castelloy Factory. It had to be a certain width, certain

434
00:23:45,041 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 7: depth and it was in the sandy are at the

435
00:23:47,961 --> 00:23:51,081
Speaker 7: back of Castle OOI Factory and it was overseen by

436
00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 7: none other than Harry Phipps. Once they had finished digging

437
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 7: that hole, and it was one hundred degrees heat by

438
00:23:56,801 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 7: the way, is they were given a pound note, told

439
00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:04,801
Speaker 7: to f off and never come back, which was some

440
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 7: which they hadn't heard or wasn't usual, But that's what

441
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 7: Harry used. So we don't know what he put in

442
00:24:10,521 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 7: that hole. They also describe his car as a pontiac

443
00:24:14,681 --> 00:24:17,921
Speaker 7: parisen as a bill brought up, and that they were

444
00:24:17,961 --> 00:24:21,281
Speaker 7: paid handsomely again him pound notes. That's that pound note.

445
00:24:21,761 --> 00:24:24,801
Speaker 7: Been saying even in the book, follow the money, follow

446
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,801
Speaker 7: the money trail. He tipped in pound notes. Jane got

447
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,161
Speaker 7: a pound note, and three days later, low and behold,

448
00:24:32,321 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 7: the two boys get pound notes. I mean, it doesn't

449
00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:36,881
Speaker 7: take a rocket science to work that one out.

450
00:24:37,521 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 2: And that was very good evidence, and the police did

451
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:41,921
Speaker 2: take it seriously because there was not one but two

452
00:24:41,961 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 2: digs at the site back in about twenty thirteen. I

453
00:24:45,041 --> 00:24:47,561
Speaker 2: believe what happened in those digs.

454
00:24:48,721 --> 00:24:49,641
Speaker 1: Well, in twenty.

455
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,961
Speaker 5: Thirteen dig we think was slightly misplaced. Well we thought

456
00:24:54,001 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 5: at the time they found nothing in that area. The

457
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:04,880
Speaker 5: twenty eighteen dig was much better identified by Graham penetrating radio.

458
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,561
Speaker 5: All the devices that was used to find the exact

459
00:25:08,681 --> 00:25:12,721
Speaker 5: spot where the hole was dug. We did find that

460
00:25:12,921 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 5: the hole takes two Professor Ian Moffatley's team from Finnish University,

461
00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 5: and a hole was dug there again nothing clean.

462
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 6: So how did that go with you? Guys?

463
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,041
Speaker 2: You'd put a lot of your own credibility on that

464
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:34,321
Speaker 2: story about the gravesized hole being dug and it came

465
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:34,961
Speaker 2: up with nothing.

466
00:25:34,961 --> 00:25:36,281
Speaker 6: It must have been a crushing blow.

467
00:25:36,801 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 8: No, disappointed.

468
00:25:39,201 --> 00:25:42,521
Speaker 7: But wasn't a crushing blow as they say, because we

469
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,201
Speaker 7: know the back of the factory I mean is billed

470
00:25:45,201 --> 00:25:46,360
Speaker 7: with a test when we were there.

471
00:25:46,681 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 8: It's quite wide.

472
00:25:47,761 --> 00:25:50,801
Speaker 7: It runs from one street to the other, so you know,

473
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 7: it's like you could say it's finding a needle in

474
00:25:53,441 --> 00:25:56,521
Speaker 7: a haystack. The other thing is that in the original

475
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,041
Speaker 7: dig And I'll go back a bit, when they were digging,

476
00:25:59,241 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 7: Hayden called his closest cousin at that time and he

477
00:26:03,001 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 7: yielded him. He said, they're digging in the eff Andong spot,

478
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 7: So Hayden knew where they were. And also Hayden did say,

479
00:26:09,561 --> 00:26:13,361
Speaker 7: and has said on numerous occasions, they're in the ship pit.

480
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 7: And there is a thing called the ship pit, according

481
00:26:16,681 --> 00:26:21,241
Speaker 7: to former Castaly employees, where they would put in the

482
00:26:21,281 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 7: canisters that held the chemicals. They'd put in metal filings

483
00:26:24,681 --> 00:26:29,321
Speaker 7: and so forth. When we dug those digs that were

484
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,561
Speaker 7: done at the back of the castle a factory, I

485
00:26:32,561 --> 00:26:34,880
Speaker 7: think Bill's the same. I walked away from there. It

486
00:26:34,921 --> 00:26:38,521
Speaker 7: was disappointing to a way, But where's the canisters? Where's

487
00:26:38,561 --> 00:26:41,561
Speaker 7: the ship pit? We only found a few bones, but

488
00:26:41,721 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 7: where is the rubbish, the leftovers, the dross and so

489
00:26:46,721 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 7: forth from that factory? Where was that dumped? We know

490
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:54,041
Speaker 7: it was there somewhere, but we haven't hit that. So disappointed,

491
00:26:54,321 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 7: but there's also a flicker of hope.

492
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,721
Speaker 2: You guys are absolutely indefatigable. You'll never be put off.

493
00:26:59,921 --> 00:27:02,521
Speaker 2: In fact, to the point where early this year twenty

494
00:27:02,561 --> 00:27:06,241
Speaker 2: twenty five, you were back there again, the privately funded

495
00:27:06,561 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 2: dig that was organized in part by Frank Pangalo, the

496
00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:13,041
Speaker 2: independent MP in South Australia, and you were there again.

497
00:27:13,241 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 2: Why was it worth going back and digging once more?

498
00:27:16,001 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 5: Well, eighteen dig did a few things to my mindset,

499
00:27:21,321 --> 00:27:24,361
Speaker 5: and of course Stuart's. But one of the things that

500
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:29,681
Speaker 5: we considered was was this a predetermined act of murder?

501
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,521
Speaker 5: Had he set out that day, the twenty sixth of

502
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,521
Speaker 5: January to take these three children, had.

503
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 1: To murder them? I believe not.

504
00:27:38,201 --> 00:27:42,521
Speaker 5: I believe he had designs towards the children sexually as

505
00:27:42,561 --> 00:27:46,161
Speaker 5: a pedophile, but not to murder them because there'd been

506
00:27:46,201 --> 00:27:49,081
Speaker 5: no preparation for disposal of bodies.

507
00:27:50,481 --> 00:27:51,521
Speaker 1: That fits in with the.

508
00:27:51,521 --> 00:27:55,641
Speaker 5: Guys having to dig a hole three days later when

509
00:27:55,681 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 5: it was very very hot and very very humid.

510
00:27:58,721 --> 00:28:00,880
Speaker 1: If the children had been murdered when we.

511
00:28:00,921 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 5: Think they were in the cottages at castlelawy days later,

512
00:28:06,561 --> 00:28:10,400
Speaker 5: to not find a point on it, it would have

513
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,761
Speaker 5: been a stench that would have been quite easily ascertained

514
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 5: as coming from that cottage had he been there for

515
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 5: that time in that heat.

516
00:28:19,441 --> 00:28:23,001
Speaker 1: So he wasn't prepared, and getting the guys to dig

517
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:24,041
Speaker 1: that hole three.

518
00:28:23,921 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 5: Days later in such haste proved that to me that

519
00:28:27,721 --> 00:28:32,521
Speaker 5: it wasn't a predetermined murder up to a point where it.

520
00:28:32,481 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: Did become that way.

521
00:28:34,281 --> 00:28:37,640
Speaker 5: So then that led us to think that we're dealing

522
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,801
Speaker 5: with a clever man who had the brains and the

523
00:28:40,881 --> 00:28:46,361
Speaker 5: wherewithal to dig the hole a keeper hole, perhaps to

524
00:28:46,401 --> 00:28:49,521
Speaker 5: get whether the children out of the cottages where we

525
00:28:49,601 --> 00:28:52,401
Speaker 5: believe it would have been left, and to put them

526
00:28:52,481 --> 00:28:57,081
Speaker 5: somewhere where the stench isn't going to alert someone. But

527
00:28:57,241 --> 00:29:01,041
Speaker 5: also being a cunning and very intelligent man as he was,

528
00:29:02,001 --> 00:29:06,321
Speaker 5: he would have thought, well, yourself up a little bit

529
00:29:06,361 --> 00:29:09,801
Speaker 5: here by having these strangers to this hole. What if

530
00:29:09,801 --> 00:29:12,961
Speaker 5: someone puts two and two together one day and decide

531
00:29:13,001 --> 00:29:16,601
Speaker 5: to go back to the hole on gone. So did

532
00:29:16,641 --> 00:29:20,521
Speaker 5: he later dig a hole and exhume the children and

533
00:29:20,601 --> 00:29:24,881
Speaker 5: put him somewhere else? Or was the whole doug as

534
00:29:24,921 --> 00:29:27,561
Speaker 5: a blind to take us the wrong way?

535
00:29:28,121 --> 00:29:31,081
Speaker 2: Quite possible in my experience currying these cases. The people

536
00:29:31,161 --> 00:29:34,601
Speaker 2: that bury bodies live a life of fear and uncertainty

537
00:29:34,761 --> 00:29:37,601
Speaker 2: that some days someone's going to find them. And particularly

538
00:29:37,601 --> 00:29:41,041
Speaker 2: when you've got a vast ocean, the Great Australian Bite,

539
00:29:41,321 --> 00:29:45,281
Speaker 2: there is beyond Adelaide, beyond Glenelg there would be ample

540
00:29:45,321 --> 00:29:48,561
Speaker 2: opportunity to exhume those bodies, take them out to sea,

541
00:29:48,601 --> 00:29:51,921
Speaker 2: so they would never be found again. So you have

542
00:29:51,961 --> 00:29:54,281
Speaker 2: to dig somewhere. You've got to start somewhere. But again

543
00:29:54,681 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 2: that dig in early twenty twenty five didn't find anything.

544
00:29:57,761 --> 00:29:58,601
Speaker 6: You continue on.

545
00:29:58,921 --> 00:30:02,881
Speaker 2: Now you've also begun to reappraise the possible role of

546
00:30:03,001 --> 00:30:04,681
Speaker 2: Hayden Phipps in this bill.

547
00:30:06,361 --> 00:30:11,881
Speaker 5: Well, we've always had concerns with Hayden's what secret was

548
00:30:11,881 --> 00:30:15,641
Speaker 5: he keeping. He was telling us most things, and you're

549
00:30:15,681 --> 00:30:17,361
Speaker 5: calling your mind, Steve van Apron.

550
00:30:18,361 --> 00:30:21,681
Speaker 1: He saw Red analyze.

551
00:30:21,201 --> 00:30:24,641
Speaker 5: Hayden's interview with me and kept the saying inclusion of

552
00:30:25,001 --> 00:30:29,641
Speaker 5: separate from himself, that he was holding something back, and

553
00:30:30,041 --> 00:30:33,601
Speaker 5: we were always concerned about what was he holding back.

554
00:30:34,161 --> 00:30:37,161
Speaker 5: He obviously, from the way he spoke to us and

555
00:30:37,201 --> 00:30:41,561
Speaker 5: to me on two occasions, was very certain that the

556
00:30:41,641 --> 00:30:45,601
Speaker 5: children were murdered there and were buried in the ship pit.

557
00:30:46,481 --> 00:30:48,241
Speaker 5: That was the last thing he said to me. The

558
00:30:48,321 --> 00:30:51,921
Speaker 5: last time I saw alive was there in the shippit build.

559
00:30:52,921 --> 00:30:56,561
Speaker 5: So it was quite certain that he was holding something back.

560
00:30:56,801 --> 00:30:59,241
Speaker 5: We want to find out what that was. We never

561
00:30:59,281 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 5: thought we would, but we think we have.

562
00:31:01,721 --> 00:31:03,921
Speaker 2: Right because you mentioned Steve Van Apron. He is my

563
00:31:04,001 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 2: co host of the Heart does the seven show we

564
00:31:06,041 --> 00:31:09,321
Speaker 2: did and he did analyze Hayden's audio interview and he

565
00:31:09,361 --> 00:31:12,281
Speaker 2: did say to me he felt that Hayden was holding

566
00:31:12,321 --> 00:31:14,761
Speaker 2: something back, as you say, and it's just a shame

567
00:31:14,801 --> 00:31:17,161
Speaker 2: that he wasn't around to be reinterviewed or actually put

568
00:31:17,161 --> 00:31:18,481
Speaker 2: on the polygraph himself.

569
00:31:18,841 --> 00:31:20,641
Speaker 6: You wonder how he might have gone. Bill.

570
00:31:20,761 --> 00:31:23,321
Speaker 2: You've actually been doing polygraph for a number of years

571
00:31:23,361 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 2: now you understand human behavior, the body language. Was there

572
00:31:27,561 --> 00:31:31,121
Speaker 2: anything in Hayden's demeanor that tended to reinforce your suspicion?

573
00:31:31,841 --> 00:31:34,041
Speaker 5: I think it was his demeanor that actually caused me

574
00:31:34,081 --> 00:31:35,801
Speaker 5: to think, as well as what the words he was

575
00:31:35,841 --> 00:31:37,841
Speaker 5: saying and how he's saying, It caused me to think

576
00:31:37,841 --> 00:31:40,281
Speaker 5: that he was holding something back. It would take you

577
00:31:40,321 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 5: to a certain point and yet it would stop. You know,

578
00:31:44,241 --> 00:31:47,481
Speaker 5: it was like turning a tap off, and that's not

579
00:31:47,721 --> 00:31:51,281
Speaker 5: natural conversation. You'll get into a conversation and you just

580
00:31:51,681 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 5: determinated normally unless you don't want to speak about the

581
00:31:55,721 --> 00:31:57,321
Speaker 5: next thing that you'd be spoken about.

582
00:31:58,001 --> 00:31:59,321
Speaker 1: That was one of the things.

583
00:31:59,801 --> 00:32:03,281
Speaker 2: So he was happy to incriminate his father, but possibly

584
00:32:03,361 --> 00:32:05,641
Speaker 2: to leave himself out of the narrative. As you've said,

585
00:32:05,681 --> 00:32:09,961
Speaker 2: you suspect that Harry didn't operate alone. Do you think

586
00:32:10,041 --> 00:32:12,721
Speaker 2: Hayden might have been as accomplice on that day back

587
00:32:12,721 --> 00:32:13,641
Speaker 2: in nine sixty six.

588
00:32:14,521 --> 00:32:18,361
Speaker 5: We had discussed it, not with any great degree of

589
00:32:19,161 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 5: serious intent in relation to it, just one of the

590
00:32:22,761 --> 00:32:26,601
Speaker 5: things we would discuss as a possibility as you would.

591
00:32:26,841 --> 00:32:28,841
Speaker 5: As you know, I think we don't just close your

592
00:32:28,881 --> 00:32:32,121
Speaker 5: mind to anything we had discussed it as a possibility

593
00:32:32,241 --> 00:32:34,041
Speaker 5: and we thought, well, we'll never know.

594
00:32:34,401 --> 00:32:35,041
Speaker 1: We'll never know.

595
00:32:35,801 --> 00:32:39,121
Speaker 7: Well, the other thing that Hayden said after Bill had

596
00:32:39,201 --> 00:32:44,041
Speaker 7: completed his interview with him, when he helped Hayden get

597
00:32:44,081 --> 00:32:46,801
Speaker 7: in the car, I remember Bill was saying. He looked

598
00:32:46,841 --> 00:32:48,361
Speaker 7: up to Bill and said, are you going to get

599
00:32:48,401 --> 00:32:51,001
Speaker 7: these bastards? It wasn't just one.

600
00:32:51,361 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 5: That was on the second occasion when we met. I

601
00:32:54,281 --> 00:32:56,761
Speaker 5: was leaving him at the hotel where I met him.

602
00:32:57,241 --> 00:32:59,641
Speaker 5: His ex wife had gone to pick up the car

603
00:32:59,721 --> 00:33:02,601
Speaker 5: to take them away, and the last body said to

604
00:33:02,641 --> 00:33:05,561
Speaker 5: you was are you going to put these bastards in jail?

605
00:33:05,721 --> 00:33:06,001
Speaker 1: Bill?

606
00:33:06,721 --> 00:33:11,601
Speaker 5: I said, bastards, Hayden. There's only your father, isn't it.

607
00:33:12,481 --> 00:33:15,161
Speaker 5: And I said the primary purpose what we are doing

608
00:33:15,241 --> 00:33:18,761
Speaker 5: is to find the children, and he said they're in

609
00:33:18,761 --> 00:33:19,321
Speaker 5: the ship pit.

610
00:33:19,401 --> 00:33:19,601
Speaker 1: Bill.

611
00:33:19,801 --> 00:33:22,761
Speaker 5: At that point his ex wife returned that I couldn't

612
00:33:22,761 --> 00:33:25,961
Speaker 5: continue with the conversation. Unfortunately I never got to see

613
00:33:26,001 --> 00:33:27,761
Speaker 5: him again because he died soon after.

614
00:33:28,441 --> 00:33:30,361
Speaker 6: And because where was Harry at this time?

615
00:33:31,081 --> 00:33:32,001
Speaker 1: Harry is deceased.

616
00:33:32,241 --> 00:33:34,281
Speaker 2: He was already dead, So how could you put a

617
00:33:34,281 --> 00:33:38,001
Speaker 2: dead man in jail? So Hayden is clearly holding back

618
00:33:38,041 --> 00:33:39,481
Speaker 2: some other information.

619
00:33:39,321 --> 00:33:42,201
Speaker 5: And he used the pure al bastards as opposed to bastard.

620
00:33:42,881 --> 00:33:44,641
Speaker 5: Up to that point we'd only had Harry.

621
00:33:45,281 --> 00:33:48,001
Speaker 2: Now the listeners have been waiting for the critical new information.

622
00:33:48,121 --> 00:33:48,641
Speaker 6: Here it is.

623
00:33:49,041 --> 00:33:51,801
Speaker 2: There was a note left on the fence that's really

624
00:33:51,841 --> 00:33:55,081
Speaker 2: opened up a whole new leg of this investigation. Tell

625
00:33:55,161 --> 00:33:56,681
Speaker 2: us about that note, what did it say and when

626
00:33:56,761 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 2: was it left there?

627
00:33:57,801 --> 00:34:03,241
Speaker 5: Well, Stuart received a phone call from a lady who

628
00:34:03,761 --> 00:34:07,361
Speaker 5: wanted to tell him about sexual abuse, her own sexual

629
00:34:07,361 --> 00:34:12,361
Speaker 5: ablution and her experience of being sexually abused by Harry Phipps.

630
00:34:13,801 --> 00:34:16,481
Speaker 5: She was a bit reluctant, I think it's fair to say, Stuart,

631
00:34:16,801 --> 00:34:20,281
Speaker 5: she was a bit reluctant to speak openly and fully,

632
00:34:20,721 --> 00:34:24,481
Speaker 5: but promised that she would at one stage, but the

633
00:34:24,521 --> 00:34:27,761
Speaker 5: circumstances of doing it over the phone didn't appeal to her.

634
00:34:27,881 --> 00:34:31,361
Speaker 5: She wasn't going to talk in any great depth about

635
00:34:31,361 --> 00:34:32,561
Speaker 5: it over the telephone.

636
00:34:33,601 --> 00:34:37,321
Speaker 1: She was extremely afraid, and I remember.

637
00:34:37,081 --> 00:34:41,201
Speaker 5: You telling me she's very very nervous about speaking to us,

638
00:34:41,401 --> 00:34:44,681
Speaker 5: but was willing to continue to do that. Stuart, I

639
00:34:44,681 --> 00:34:47,401
Speaker 5: think spoke to her on two or maybe three occasions

640
00:34:48,161 --> 00:34:51,841
Speaker 5: and was filling me in as we went on what

641
00:34:52,001 --> 00:34:54,801
Speaker 5: was being said, and it came to the point where

642
00:34:54,841 --> 00:34:58,201
Speaker 5: we thought that perhaps she was time, maybe that I

643
00:34:58,241 --> 00:35:00,721
Speaker 5: could have a chat to her as well to see

644
00:35:01,121 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 5: what I made of what she was saying and Hans

645
00:35:03,601 --> 00:35:08,761
Speaker 5: was saying it. So I rang her and spoke to her,

646
00:35:09,041 --> 00:35:13,601
Speaker 5: and she had hinted to Stewart that she knew who

647
00:35:13,641 --> 00:35:16,281
Speaker 5: had written the note that was placed on the gate

648
00:35:16,441 --> 00:35:18,921
Speaker 5: on the fiftieth anniversary of the abduction of the children.

649
00:35:20,721 --> 00:35:24,001
Speaker 5: During my conversation with her, she opened up to me

650
00:35:24,161 --> 00:35:27,641
Speaker 5: that she was the person who wrote the note. She

651
00:35:27,761 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 5: explained the note to us and described it as being

652
00:35:30,001 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 5: done by a letterset, which we agreed we'd already worked

653
00:35:33,041 --> 00:35:36,521
Speaker 5: that out ourselves by looking at the note, but she

654
00:35:36,561 --> 00:35:39,881
Speaker 5: could also tell us the type of typewriter that she

655
00:35:40,001 --> 00:35:44,321
Speaker 5: typed a note on for us to compare the typeset.

656
00:35:44,721 --> 00:35:48,921
Speaker 5: I also asked her about the initials CS on the

657
00:35:48,961 --> 00:35:49,961
Speaker 5: bottom of the note.

658
00:35:50,121 --> 00:35:55,241
Speaker 1: It had CS dot dot dot, and I asked.

659
00:35:55,041 --> 00:35:57,921
Speaker 5: That for obvious reasons, because her name and I can't

660
00:35:57,921 --> 00:36:00,641
Speaker 5: tell you what it is, but her name didn't begin

661
00:36:00,761 --> 00:36:02,401
Speaker 5: or have CS.

662
00:36:02,041 --> 00:36:02,761
Speaker 1: Anywhere in it.

663
00:36:03,841 --> 00:36:06,361
Speaker 5: So she is just told me that she wrote it

664
00:36:06,401 --> 00:36:11,161
Speaker 5: as a cryptic clue to C. S. Lewis, who was

665
00:36:11,201 --> 00:36:13,561
Speaker 5: the writer of The Lion the Witch in the Wardrobe,

666
00:36:14,161 --> 00:36:18,761
Speaker 5: which at that time was Jane's favorite book, And she

667
00:36:18,841 --> 00:36:20,241
Speaker 5: did it as a cryptic clue.

668
00:36:20,641 --> 00:36:21,641
Speaker 6: And what did the note say?

669
00:36:22,481 --> 00:36:23,041
Speaker 7: In short, it.

670
00:36:23,161 --> 00:36:27,401
Speaker 5: Said two little girls were buried there, but the little

671
00:36:27,401 --> 00:36:31,961
Speaker 5: boy was somewhere else, and you know how sorry they

672
00:36:32,001 --> 00:36:35,601
Speaker 5: were for the children, that sort of note. But the

673
00:36:35,641 --> 00:36:38,921
Speaker 5: important bit was the two girls were buried there and

674
00:36:38,961 --> 00:36:40,721
Speaker 5: the little boy was buried somewhere else.

675
00:36:42,201 --> 00:36:45,521
Speaker 7: But also in that note was again mentioned Harry Phipps

676
00:36:45,521 --> 00:36:50,561
Speaker 7: and his was accomplices. Yeah, so that was mentioned again

677
00:36:50,601 --> 00:36:51,801
Speaker 7: that there's others involved.

678
00:36:53,521 --> 00:36:56,721
Speaker 2: So Bill, let's fast forward. You meet with this lady.

679
00:36:57,041 --> 00:37:00,321
Speaker 2: What story did you have to tell? Well, I can

680
00:37:00,361 --> 00:37:01,241
Speaker 2: set the scene a bit.

681
00:37:01,401 --> 00:37:05,841
Speaker 5: I decided that on this occasion I would take the

682
00:37:05,881 --> 00:37:10,201
Speaker 5: opportunity to audio tape the interview with her, also to

683
00:37:10,481 --> 00:37:14,321
Speaker 5: videotape the interview, and at the end I would do

684
00:37:14,361 --> 00:37:18,241
Speaker 5: a large detection test on her to see if she's

685
00:37:18,241 --> 00:37:22,401
Speaker 5: telling us the truth. I met her at a place

686
00:37:22,401 --> 00:37:25,521
Speaker 5: of her choosing, which was not in the state.

687
00:37:25,321 --> 00:37:28,641
Speaker 1: Of South Australia, and spent.

688
00:37:28,681 --> 00:37:32,681
Speaker 5: An entire day, a full day with her, discussing her

689
00:37:32,761 --> 00:37:38,001
Speaker 5: story and her story, it's fair to say chilled me

690
00:37:38,121 --> 00:37:41,081
Speaker 5: to the bone. Even though I've been around the block

691
00:37:41,121 --> 00:37:45,681
Speaker 5: a few times, I was absolutely taken aback. She told

692
00:37:45,681 --> 00:37:50,921
Speaker 5: the story of her being prostituted to pedophiles from the

693
00:37:50,961 --> 00:37:54,841
Speaker 5: age of four years old by a senior female member

694
00:37:54,841 --> 00:37:59,081
Speaker 5: of her family who would do it for money. Remember,

695
00:37:59,081 --> 00:38:02,081
Speaker 5: other members of her family were also pedophiles, and they

696
00:38:02,161 --> 00:38:08,161
Speaker 5: too had abused her sexually the years she told the

697
00:38:08,241 --> 00:38:13,561
Speaker 5: story of On one occasion, because she was brought up

698
00:38:13,721 --> 00:38:17,321
Speaker 5: outside of the state of South Australia and hadn't lived

699
00:38:17,321 --> 00:38:21,681
Speaker 5: in South Australia, but a female member of her family

700
00:38:22,601 --> 00:38:27,961
Speaker 5: and another man had taken her during the school holidays

701
00:38:27,961 --> 00:38:32,801
Speaker 5: to Adelaide to visit a friend. A friend that they

702
00:38:32,961 --> 00:38:39,041
Speaker 5: visited was in Castleoy in Clinton, South Australia, and it

703
00:38:39,121 --> 00:38:40,041
Speaker 5: was Harry Phipps.

704
00:38:41,961 --> 00:38:42,761
Speaker 8: Of interest is.

705
00:38:42,881 --> 00:38:45,641
Speaker 5: On the way to meet with the family friend Phipps,

706
00:38:46,361 --> 00:38:49,321
Speaker 5: she was given a bottle of cold drink and she

707
00:38:49,401 --> 00:38:52,961
Speaker 5: had told me earlier in the conversation that one of

708
00:38:53,041 --> 00:38:55,921
Speaker 5: the things that they would do before she was left

709
00:38:56,041 --> 00:38:59,641
Speaker 5: for abuse by a pedophile was that they would give

710
00:38:59,681 --> 00:39:05,641
Speaker 5: her ketamine to drug her out. She believed later that

711
00:39:05,641 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 5: that bottle of coke had contained ketamide. She drank it

712
00:39:10,961 --> 00:39:14,281
Speaker 5: and had gone and met with Phipps in his boardroom.

713
00:39:14,681 --> 00:39:17,201
Speaker 5: He had taken them out to the foundry to have

714
00:39:17,241 --> 00:39:20,401
Speaker 5: a look at the foundry. She had seen his car,

715
00:39:21,401 --> 00:39:23,281
Speaker 5: and up to the point where she'd seen his car

716
00:39:23,401 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 5: and she actually touched it. He'd be very nice to her.

717
00:39:28,121 --> 00:39:31,841
Speaker 5: The minute she touched the car, he turned on her,

718
00:39:31,921 --> 00:39:36,241
Speaker 5: as we knew Phipps could do, and snarled at her,

719
00:39:36,961 --> 00:39:40,841
Speaker 5: get your fucking hands off, that it's a collector's item.

720
00:39:41,241 --> 00:39:43,921
Speaker 5: So that bothered here because he that point he'd been

721
00:39:43,961 --> 00:39:44,681
Speaker 5: really nice.

722
00:39:45,241 --> 00:39:45,681
Speaker 1: Anyhow.

723
00:39:45,881 --> 00:39:49,521
Speaker 5: Let me move on from that, and she recalls being

724
00:39:49,601 --> 00:39:55,521
Speaker 5: taken into a cottage building on the site by Harry Phipps.

725
00:39:56,561 --> 00:39:59,041
Speaker 5: She described the site to me and the building to me,

726
00:39:59,961 --> 00:40:03,761
Speaker 5: and it was the building she described was Harry's cottage,

727
00:40:04,081 --> 00:40:07,161
Speaker 5: the smaller of the two cottages on the Castley's site,

728
00:40:07,321 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 5: which himself and Stuart had been into several times, which

729
00:40:11,481 --> 00:40:16,321
Speaker 5: I've photo photographed the interior off. She described it pretty

730
00:40:16,321 --> 00:40:20,401
Speaker 5: well and couldn't have given me that description unless she'd

731
00:40:20,401 --> 00:40:20,841
Speaker 5: been there.

732
00:40:21,601 --> 00:40:23,361
Speaker 1: She gave detail, some detail.

733
00:40:24,641 --> 00:40:29,161
Speaker 5: So while she was in there, she was shown into

734
00:40:29,201 --> 00:40:32,761
Speaker 5: a room at the back, and it was clothing on

735
00:40:32,841 --> 00:40:38,481
Speaker 5: a rack, and there was women's dresses all sewn up

736
00:40:38,521 --> 00:40:42,001
Speaker 5: in satin, made of satin, and she was asked by

737
00:40:42,161 --> 00:40:45,841
Speaker 5: mister Phipps to choose one she likes. Was the one

738
00:40:45,921 --> 00:40:49,961
Speaker 5: she liked which she liked to have? She picked one,

739
00:40:50,241 --> 00:40:52,241
Speaker 5: and now at this stage I must have telled you

740
00:40:52,281 --> 00:40:53,801
Speaker 5: she's only ten or twelve years old.

741
00:40:54,561 --> 00:40:55,281
Speaker 1: She picked one.

742
00:40:56,481 --> 00:40:59,441
Speaker 5: Then he took her into another pile of the building,

743
00:40:59,481 --> 00:41:02,681
Speaker 5: which is a room with wood paneling in it, which

744
00:41:02,721 --> 00:41:07,441
Speaker 5: again i've seen in photographed in the past, and because

745
00:41:07,441 --> 00:41:09,561
Speaker 5: it comes up somewhere else in a story we've been

746
00:41:09,561 --> 00:41:15,161
Speaker 5: told by someone, and he raped her, vaginally raped her.

747
00:41:16,921 --> 00:41:20,841
Speaker 5: She described the rape, and then he left the room,

748
00:41:21,601 --> 00:41:24,121
Speaker 5: lift and lying on the floor. A short time later,

749
00:41:24,201 --> 00:41:27,841
Speaker 5: came back in wearing the satin dress that she'd chosen,

750
00:41:28,681 --> 00:41:30,441
Speaker 5: at which time he turned her over.

751
00:41:30,361 --> 00:41:31,881
Speaker 1: And he anally raped her.

752
00:41:32,961 --> 00:41:36,921
Speaker 5: There are things that happened during that act that ties

753
00:41:37,001 --> 00:41:40,321
Speaker 5: up with other things we've been told about Harry's m

754
00:41:40,321 --> 00:41:43,721
Speaker 5: O and the things he does whilst he's committing that act.

755
00:41:45,281 --> 00:41:47,081
Speaker 1: So during that act, as it.

756
00:41:47,081 --> 00:41:51,081
Speaker 5: Was occurring, she lost all consciousness of what was around her.

757
00:41:51,601 --> 00:41:54,201
Speaker 1: The ket of mine I'm assuming must have kicked in.

758
00:41:54,921 --> 00:41:58,681
Speaker 1: She couldn't describe how she left the building. When she

759
00:41:58,721 --> 00:42:02,241
Speaker 1: met up with a lady associate and the man, she

760
00:42:02,361 --> 00:42:04,241
Speaker 1: just that was the last she could remember. It was

761
00:42:04,281 --> 00:42:10,601
Speaker 1: Harry raping her. She then went on and spoke to

762
00:42:10,601 --> 00:42:12,001
Speaker 1: me about the Bondmont children.

763
00:42:13,681 --> 00:42:16,961
Speaker 5: I have to be a little bit reticent in some

764
00:42:17,041 --> 00:42:22,281
Speaker 5: ways about what we're going to speak about. So the

765
00:42:22,321 --> 00:42:25,601
Speaker 5: story of the children, I put a warning in the

766
00:42:25,641 --> 00:42:28,441
Speaker 5: last chapter of the book. The last chapter of the

767
00:42:28,441 --> 00:42:31,841
Speaker 5: book we've written is called a revelation. Stuart wrote one

768
00:42:31,921 --> 00:42:36,161
Speaker 5: called the Drop, and I wrote one called the ship Hit,

769
00:42:37,161 --> 00:42:40,321
Speaker 5: and the final one is the revelation, which is what

770
00:42:41,241 --> 00:42:47,641
Speaker 5: this person's told me. She told me that the children

771
00:42:47,721 --> 00:42:53,801
Speaker 5: were taken from the reserve, as we know, and we're

772
00:42:53,841 --> 00:43:00,121
Speaker 5: taken to the cottages at Castleway. There they were subject

773
00:43:00,201 --> 00:43:04,641
Speaker 5: to being raped. But prior to all happening, or in

774
00:43:04,641 --> 00:43:08,921
Speaker 5: the first day while they were there, the little boy

775
00:43:09,001 --> 00:43:14,201
Speaker 5: grand had done something was being a problem, something was happening,

776
00:43:14,521 --> 00:43:18,201
Speaker 5: and he was taken away, taken to a non public area,

777
00:43:18,641 --> 00:43:24,241
Speaker 5: a racetrack, where he was held in stables. The two

778
00:43:24,281 --> 00:43:31,601
Speaker 5: girls remained at the cottage and were raped over the

779
00:43:31,641 --> 00:43:40,841
Speaker 5: period two Days by Harry Phipps. By someone that will

780
00:43:40,961 --> 00:43:45,361
Speaker 5: keep up our sleeve, but we will tell you it's

781
00:43:45,361 --> 00:43:47,481
Speaker 5: someone that's very close to what we're doing.

782
00:43:47,961 --> 00:43:50,361
Speaker 2: You'll have to read the book to get those final details,

783
00:43:50,361 --> 00:43:52,801
Speaker 2: but I agreciate you sharing the main points of it.

784
00:43:52,881 --> 00:43:58,521
Speaker 5: Yet, and another person whose name we had heard once before,

785
00:43:59,441 --> 00:44:04,561
Speaker 5: back very early in the piece. Someone Hayden's cousin had

786
00:44:04,641 --> 00:44:07,721
Speaker 5: mentioned this person to Stewart to see if we'd heard

787
00:44:07,721 --> 00:44:11,121
Speaker 5: of anything about him, which we hadn't, and he was

788
00:44:11,521 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 5: forgotten about until now his name has come up. We've

789
00:44:16,001 --> 00:44:19,281
Speaker 5: done checks on that person and his.

790
00:44:20,721 --> 00:44:21,001
Speaker 1: Name.

791
00:44:22,641 --> 00:44:25,401
Speaker 5: It suggested from the people who tell us that we're

792
00:44:25,401 --> 00:44:28,441
Speaker 5: not talking about police officers here. Someone had said to

793
00:44:28,561 --> 00:44:32,761
Speaker 5: us that he was known to police as being a pedophile.

794
00:44:33,001 --> 00:44:33,601
Speaker 1: This person.

795
00:44:34,841 --> 00:44:38,521
Speaker 5: Now, the story of how all has happened is of

796
00:44:38,561 --> 00:44:45,961
Speaker 5: itself unusual. But one of the men who'd been constantly

797
00:44:46,041 --> 00:44:51,321
Speaker 5: sexually abusing the lady over the years had taken her

798
00:44:51,441 --> 00:44:54,121
Speaker 5: up to the point of when she was twenty years old,

799
00:44:55,441 --> 00:44:59,201
Speaker 5: and had taken it to where he lived and handcuffed

800
00:44:59,241 --> 00:45:02,441
Speaker 5: to a table and kept her at this place for

801
00:45:02,481 --> 00:45:06,121
Speaker 5: about a week. When she wasn't handcuffed to the table,

802
00:45:06,561 --> 00:45:09,721
Speaker 5: he had a shotgun on her, and over the period

803
00:45:09,841 --> 00:45:15,881
Speaker 5: that week he would rape her, continuously rape her. One

804
00:45:15,921 --> 00:45:19,961
Speaker 5: evening was drunk. He got drunk and made what she

805
00:45:20,161 --> 00:45:21,161
Speaker 5: called a drunken.

806
00:45:21,161 --> 00:45:25,401
Speaker 1: Confession to her. The confession is what.

807
00:45:25,281 --> 00:45:29,481
Speaker 5: I'm telling you, what you're hearing now, that he knew

808
00:45:30,441 --> 00:45:35,641
Speaker 5: Harry and like Harry, like himself, Harry is a pedophile,

809
00:45:36,881 --> 00:45:39,921
Speaker 5: and that he himself was a member of Harry's pedophile group.

810
00:45:40,521 --> 00:45:43,041
Speaker 5: But on an occasion when he wasn't there, the Bobmont

811
00:45:43,161 --> 00:45:45,161
Speaker 5: children had been taken to.

812
00:45:45,201 --> 00:45:50,041
Speaker 1: This place and had been, as I told you, raped.

813
00:45:50,041 --> 00:45:52,161
Speaker 5: The little boy had been taken away on the first

814
00:45:52,201 --> 00:45:56,961
Speaker 5: hand to the racing track. The girls remained being raped.

815
00:45:57,761 --> 00:46:02,321
Speaker 5: A physical assault, a very serious physical assault, had taken

816
00:46:02,361 --> 00:46:06,041
Speaker 5: place on one of the children, which I can't repeat

817
00:46:06,081 --> 00:46:08,801
Speaker 5: here and I haven't repeated in the book because it's sickening.

818
00:46:10,121 --> 00:46:13,641
Speaker 5: But the little child was very heavily assaulted by Harry

819
00:46:13,641 --> 00:46:17,041
Speaker 5: Fipps in a fit of rage, and we know that

820
00:46:17,081 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 5: he had these fits of rage. The rape continued for

821
00:46:21,601 --> 00:46:25,281
Speaker 5: about two days when the children were strangled.

822
00:46:26,641 --> 00:46:30,521
Speaker 6: Shocking Harry is shocking Harry and the other.

823
00:46:30,561 --> 00:46:34,761
Speaker 5: Person that I won't name at the stage helped the

824
00:46:34,801 --> 00:46:39,081
Speaker 5: dig a hole, as did the person of man who

825
00:46:39,081 --> 00:46:42,401
Speaker 5: we hadn't heard of before, helped the dig the hole

826
00:46:42,641 --> 00:46:45,361
Speaker 5: to get rid of the children. They gave a description,

827
00:46:45,521 --> 00:46:49,041
Speaker 5: or he gave a description to the lady of something

828
00:46:49,081 --> 00:46:54,081
Speaker 5: that was in that hole. Now that hole became important

829
00:46:54,121 --> 00:46:58,081
Speaker 5: to us at around the time all this happened, because

830
00:46:58,121 --> 00:47:01,321
Speaker 5: we were about the digger hole at the sight of

831
00:47:01,361 --> 00:47:04,921
Speaker 5: the very area that he had nominated as what it.

832
00:47:05,121 --> 00:47:07,081
Speaker 1: Children have been buried the very.

833
00:47:06,921 --> 00:47:10,121
Speaker 2: Area that's the site in early twenty twenty five when

834
00:47:10,121 --> 00:47:11,241
Speaker 2: the dig took place.

835
00:47:11,441 --> 00:47:14,241
Speaker 5: That's the last one leading up to the Easter weekend,

836
00:47:15,481 --> 00:47:19,361
Speaker 5: and then the day after the Easter weekend. So he

837
00:47:19,441 --> 00:47:22,961
Speaker 5: said about something that happened there during the burial process,

838
00:47:23,881 --> 00:47:27,001
Speaker 5: and where it was the lo case it was, and

839
00:47:27,121 --> 00:47:29,841
Speaker 5: love and behold on the last air of the dig.

840
00:47:29,961 --> 00:47:32,201
Speaker 1: When we dug in that area, which of where we

841
00:47:32,241 --> 00:47:33,361
Speaker 1: now knew was the.

842
00:47:33,321 --> 00:47:36,641
Speaker 5: Ship pit, and we dug in that area which I'll

843
00:47:36,681 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 5: tell you it was beside a peppercorn tree about three

844
00:47:40,001 --> 00:47:44,921
Speaker 5: feet down, we found exactly what he said would be there.

845
00:47:46,121 --> 00:47:49,121
Speaker 5: So there was some credibility to what he was saying,

846
00:47:50,001 --> 00:47:53,121
Speaker 5: because he would have no way of knowing that was

847
00:47:53,161 --> 00:47:56,041
Speaker 5: there unless a he was told about it in detail,

848
00:47:56,721 --> 00:47:57,801
Speaker 5: which I doubt.

849
00:47:58,321 --> 00:48:01,041
Speaker 1: Or be he was there himself, which I think he was.

850
00:48:02,521 --> 00:48:06,121
Speaker 2: So these allegations are included in the new edition of

851
00:48:06,161 --> 00:48:10,961
Speaker 2: your book, and they are very compelling, and you seem

852
00:48:11,001 --> 00:48:13,681
Speaker 2: to have been able to corroborate what this lady said.

853
00:48:13,681 --> 00:48:16,281
Speaker 2: You've done it on a polygraph. You're able to connect

854
00:48:16,281 --> 00:48:19,361
Speaker 2: her experiences with your own eyewitness accounts of those cottages.

855
00:48:19,401 --> 00:48:23,601
Speaker 2: There there's enough for this that must be investigated. And

856
00:48:23,681 --> 00:48:28,681
Speaker 2: my question for South Australia is why has the Coroner

857
00:48:28,761 --> 00:48:32,681
Speaker 2: of South Australia never held an inquest? Imagine that they've

858
00:48:32,801 --> 00:48:37,041
Speaker 2: never held an inquest into all the information the investigation

859
00:48:37,441 --> 00:48:40,681
Speaker 2: into the disappearance and probable murder of the Beaumont children.

860
00:48:41,001 --> 00:48:42,961
Speaker 2: Why do you think that is, Bill, You're a South Australia,

861
00:48:43,161 --> 00:48:45,801
Speaker 2: You're living in South Australia. Now, why won't they bring

862
00:48:45,841 --> 00:48:46,561
Speaker 2: this to the coroner?

863
00:48:48,281 --> 00:48:51,241
Speaker 5: The only thing I can think of it's still supposedly

864
00:48:51,361 --> 00:48:56,161
Speaker 5: inverted commers in actively investigated case. That's the only possibility

865
00:48:56,201 --> 00:49:00,241
Speaker 5: I could find. I can't see a reason why there's

866
00:49:00,281 --> 00:49:01,641
Speaker 5: been no corrolling inquiry.

867
00:49:01,881 --> 00:49:03,161
Speaker 1: It's a standing.

868
00:49:03,841 --> 00:49:06,841
Speaker 2: Because I think there's serious questions to be asked about

869
00:49:06,841 --> 00:49:07,921
Speaker 2: the police investigation.

870
00:49:08,001 --> 00:49:08,801
Speaker 6: What's happening now?

871
00:49:09,201 --> 00:49:12,161
Speaker 2: I simply do not believe that there is an active

872
00:49:12,201 --> 00:49:15,201
Speaker 2: investigation going on right now. I think there's been a

873
00:49:15,241 --> 00:49:18,841
Speaker 2: lot of leads followed, nothing's come up, and now, as

874
00:49:18,881 --> 00:49:22,641
Speaker 2: is common with cold cases, they're waiting for some new information.

875
00:49:23,201 --> 00:49:26,001
Speaker 2: I think it's time the coroner actually was proactive and said,

876
00:49:26,161 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 2: let's analyze every piece of information and call for that

877
00:49:30,601 --> 00:49:35,081
Speaker 2: little scrap of information that could corroborate or even eliminate, because,

878
00:49:35,121 --> 00:49:38,641
Speaker 2: let's face it, the Phipps family lives with these allegations.

879
00:49:38,681 --> 00:49:41,681
Speaker 2: Now it's in their interest as well as the Beaumonts

880
00:49:41,761 --> 00:49:43,921
Speaker 2: and the rest of the people of South Australia, let

881
00:49:44,001 --> 00:49:48,561
Speaker 2: alone Australia, that some kind of certainty is riched at.

882
00:49:49,801 --> 00:49:54,201
Speaker 7: But can I add that it's also some glaring mismanagement

883
00:49:54,281 --> 00:49:59,401
Speaker 7: from the detectives that Hayden and Angela, his wife, were

884
00:49:59,481 --> 00:50:04,961
Speaker 7: never met and never interviewed by detectives. That's the first

885
00:50:05,121 --> 00:50:07,401
Speaker 7: two people Bill wanted to meet. They were the first

886
00:50:07,401 --> 00:50:10,401
Speaker 7: two people I needed to meet to ascertain their truthfulness.

887
00:50:11,121 --> 00:50:14,481
Speaker 7: But did detectives meet an interview?

888
00:50:14,641 --> 00:50:14,801
Speaker 1: No?

889
00:50:15,481 --> 00:50:17,561
Speaker 7: How can it be a thorough case? I suppose in

890
00:50:17,601 --> 00:50:20,681
Speaker 7: a coronial inquest that will come out. It was mismanaged.

891
00:50:20,801 --> 00:50:21,601
Speaker 7: In my opinion.

892
00:50:22,521 --> 00:50:25,841
Speaker 2: I found there was a tremendous reluctance even from retired

893
00:50:25,881 --> 00:50:29,321
Speaker 2: judicial figures in South Australia to agree to a coronial inquest.

894
00:50:29,361 --> 00:50:32,001
Speaker 2: We spoke to John Sullen, former Supreme Court Judge of

895
00:50:32,001 --> 00:50:35,201
Speaker 2: South Australia, and he said, oh, only if there was

896
00:50:35,281 --> 00:50:38,841
Speaker 2: fresh and compelling evidence should there be a coronial inquest.

897
00:50:38,881 --> 00:50:42,721
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, what what they're actual? I mean, We've seen

898
00:50:42,761 --> 00:50:46,801
Speaker 2: around the world these long time cold cases be opened

899
00:50:47,081 --> 00:50:50,201
Speaker 2: in the interest of transparency, in the interest of some

900
00:50:50,481 --> 00:50:54,841
Speaker 2: possible closure being arrived at. For instance, Derek Ernest Percy,

901
00:50:54,921 --> 00:50:58,001
Speaker 2: the notorious child killer, probably murt a little girl called

902
00:50:58,001 --> 00:51:01,241
Speaker 2: Linda Stillwell, Victoria. There was an inquest by the coroner

903
00:51:01,401 --> 00:51:05,121
Speaker 2: into that case. It gave that family some sense, but

904
00:51:05,161 --> 00:51:08,521
Speaker 2: there was someone caring. After all these years, Jim and

905
00:51:08,601 --> 00:51:11,881
Speaker 2: Nancy Beaumont have gone to their graves not knowing there

906
00:51:11,921 --> 00:51:14,801
Speaker 2: are still Beaumont family members out there who are still

907
00:51:14,801 --> 00:51:18,921
Speaker 2: looking for truth. How does it feel you two, your

908
00:51:18,921 --> 00:51:21,761
Speaker 2: odd couple, your dad's army of investigators, to be the

909
00:51:21,801 --> 00:51:24,241
Speaker 2: ones carrying the torch for justice? When it should be

910
00:51:24,281 --> 00:51:26,521
Speaker 2: the coroner and the Police of South Australia.

911
00:51:27,441 --> 00:51:30,161
Speaker 7: Well, I suppose with us, it's something we wanted to do.

912
00:51:31,521 --> 00:51:34,121
Speaker 7: I always felt there was something we were given to

913
00:51:34,201 --> 00:51:36,041
Speaker 7: do and we've done it and I'm glad I met

914
00:51:36,081 --> 00:51:39,601
Speaker 7: Bill to do that. So we understand that, you know,

915
00:51:39,641 --> 00:51:42,641
Speaker 7: with the Coroner's inquestal lack thereof, and also with some

916
00:51:42,801 --> 00:51:45,881
Speaker 7: members of the police force that as Bill said, you

917
00:51:45,921 --> 00:51:47,521
Speaker 7: know they're not going to be told by members of

918
00:51:47,561 --> 00:51:50,321
Speaker 7: the public how to do their job. And as you said, Bill,

919
00:51:50,401 --> 00:51:54,161
Speaker 7: being a former detective, no way. So as far as

920
00:51:54,201 --> 00:51:56,321
Speaker 7: I'm concerned, I think I'll close up shop.

921
00:51:57,721 --> 00:51:58,601
Speaker 6: Are you Fellas done?

922
00:51:58,601 --> 00:52:04,401
Speaker 7: Now? No goodness, no more to go? And Bill just

923
00:52:04,441 --> 00:52:08,201
Speaker 7: alluded to that with a book coming out in all bookshops,

924
00:52:08,361 --> 00:52:11,041
Speaker 7: is that it's that last chapter. I must admit, it's

925
00:52:11,081 --> 00:52:15,161
Speaker 7: that last chapter that really brings everything together from what

926
00:52:15,281 --> 00:52:19,321
Speaker 7: they bought at Wenzel's Bakery, what they bought then, and

927
00:52:19,321 --> 00:52:21,361
Speaker 7: then you have a look at that last chapter. God,

928
00:52:21,361 --> 00:52:24,361
Speaker 7: it makes sense, It absolutely makes sense.

929
00:52:24,641 --> 00:52:26,321
Speaker 2: Because this has been a labor of love. I don't

930
00:52:26,321 --> 00:52:28,161
Speaker 2: think you've made a cent out of this. You've got

931
00:52:28,201 --> 00:52:30,281
Speaker 2: a decent publisher on board now, Simon and s justed

932
00:52:30,281 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 2: well done for that, and this book is now going

933
00:52:32,481 --> 00:52:36,521
Speaker 2: into national so you would hope that another ground swell

934
00:52:36,881 --> 00:52:39,481
Speaker 2: of momentum is brought about by the release of the

935
00:52:39,521 --> 00:52:42,481
Speaker 2: new edition and that that piece of information comes forward

936
00:52:42,681 --> 00:52:45,161
Speaker 2: that just allows you to finish your work, because boy

937
00:52:45,161 --> 00:52:47,121
Speaker 2: should have a rest. Really, I think, let me get

938
00:52:47,161 --> 00:52:49,481
Speaker 2: the glory if I possibly can the book.

939
00:52:49,561 --> 00:52:52,761
Speaker 7: What this book will also do is that if there's

940
00:52:52,801 --> 00:52:55,921
Speaker 7: also there's been people that have come forward to say

941
00:52:55,921 --> 00:52:58,321
Speaker 7: they were sexually abused by Phipps, that is only the

942
00:52:58,321 --> 00:53:01,441
Speaker 7: tip of the iceberg. And we know in cases like

943
00:53:01,481 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 7: this Jared Risdale, the Catholic priest, he had fifty four

944
00:53:05,161 --> 00:53:08,961
Speaker 7: counts of child sexual abuse against him. They don't stop

945
00:53:08,961 --> 00:53:12,041
Speaker 7: at one. They don't stop until they're court. Harry Phipps

946
00:53:12,121 --> 00:53:14,681
Speaker 7: was never caught, so there's other victims out there.

947
00:53:15,561 --> 00:53:16,881
Speaker 6: Guys. Thanks for your time today.

948
00:53:17,041 --> 00:53:20,161
Speaker 2: The book is Unmasking the Killer of the Beaumont Children.

949
00:53:20,401 --> 00:53:22,561
Speaker 2: It's out on Simon and Schuster. Please have a read

950
00:53:22,561 --> 00:53:24,401
Speaker 2: of it. Everyone out there, guys, I've got to say

951
00:53:24,441 --> 00:53:25,921
Speaker 2: to you, I'm really proud of the work you've done

952
00:53:25,921 --> 00:53:28,921
Speaker 2: on behalf of the Beaumont family and the people of

953
00:53:28,961 --> 00:53:32,841
Speaker 2: South Australia. Let's hope that it brings some form of closure,

954
00:53:33,081 --> 00:53:34,401
Speaker 2: new information, whatever it is.

955
00:53:34,441 --> 00:53:35,321
Speaker 6: Thanks for your time today.

956
00:53:35,521 --> 00:53:37,041
Speaker 8: Thank you very much, really appreciate it.

957
00:53:37,161 --> 00:53:38,281
Speaker 1: Thank you.

958
00:53:40,241 --> 00:53:43,041
Speaker 2: That was Stuart Mullins and Bill Hayes. The book is

959
00:53:43,161 --> 00:53:46,921
Speaker 2: unmasking the killer of the Beaumont Children. It's time for

960
00:53:47,001 --> 00:53:49,321
Speaker 2: the Coroner of South Australia to get involved.

961
00:53:49,641 --> 00:53:50,361
Speaker 6: It really is.

962
00:53:50,601 --> 00:53:53,481
Speaker 2: It's not surprising that South Australia has never had a

963
00:53:53,561 --> 00:53:56,881
Speaker 2: High Court justice in its history. There's a different kind

964
00:53:56,881 --> 00:53:59,561
Speaker 2: of justice in South Australia and I'm sure people in

965
00:53:59,601 --> 00:54:02,161
Speaker 2: the state will know what I'm talking about. If you're

966
00:54:02,201 --> 00:54:06,401
Speaker 2: out there with any kind of information, now is the

967
00:54:06,481 --> 00:54:08,761
Speaker 2: time to bring it forward. You've got two investigators here

968
00:54:08,801 --> 00:54:11,041
Speaker 2: who are very very keen. I'm also keen, so if

969
00:54:11,041 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 2: you want to get in touch, you can call Crime

970
00:54:12,961 --> 00:54:15,961
Speaker 2: Stoppers one eight hundred, Triple three, Triple zero. I'm not

971
00:54:15,961 --> 00:54:18,041
Speaker 2: sure how much joy you're going to get because I

972
00:54:18,041 --> 00:54:20,841
Speaker 2: think there's a fatigue in the South Australian police about

973
00:54:20,841 --> 00:54:23,761
Speaker 2: looking at new lines of investigation. They're waiting for the

974
00:54:23,801 --> 00:54:26,801
Speaker 2: answers to be dropped on their doorstep. But there are

975
00:54:26,841 --> 00:54:28,881
Speaker 2: other people who are keen to get it. You can

976
00:54:28,921 --> 00:54:33,001
Speaker 2: also email me Adam Shan writer at gmail dot com,

977
00:54:33,081 --> 00:54:35,401
Speaker 2: and I will pass on the information to these two

978
00:54:35,681 --> 00:54:39,481
Speaker 2: indefatigable investigators. This has been real crime with Adam shanned.

979
00:54:39,481 --> 00:54:41,641
Speaker 2: I'm your host, Adam Shann. Thank you for listening.