Speaker 1: Do you know the real story Harry got that nickname,
Speaker 1: probably a Jano. It was a pair of journeys who
Speaker 1: had a photograph of his seized Ferrari car. Whatever number
Speaker 1: plates it had had to be pixelighted out. But what
Speaker 1: this pair did, and I was one of them, was
Speaker 1: get a fellow with a computer to mock up number
Speaker 1: plates on the car, and we put fat Tony plates
Speaker 1: on Lara and it took hold. I'm Andrew Rules's Life
Speaker 1: and crimes. Recently, my colleague Mark Butler and I did
Speaker 1: a story about Tony Mockbell because Tony Mockbell has become
Speaker 1: very big news once more in our city because of
Speaker 1: the fact that he's been released on bail amid much publicity,
Speaker 1: and we thought it was time to sort of have
Speaker 1: a good hard look at who he is, who he was,
Speaker 1: what he's done, and really have an un blinking look
Speaker 1: at the life and crimes of an international drug trafficker,
Speaker 1: a person who has used his wealth in the past
Speaker 1: to employ killers, standover men, all sorts of bad people
Speaker 1: to do his dirty work for him, and someone, although
Speaker 1: he has never been convicted of murder, has shown himself
Speaker 1: quite capable in the past. We would contend of ordering
Speaker 1: others to do that for him, to kill people for him.
Speaker 1: And in fact, there's a very heartbreaking example of a
Speaker 1: killing which police are convinced he is due to mock
Speaker 1: bellen his willingness to pay for things to be done.
Speaker 1: Not that he always paid on time or paid the
Speaker 1: full amount, of course, but that is the murder back
Speaker 1: in two thousand and three of Mick Marshall, whose full
Speaker 1: name was Michael Ronald Marshall. And the thing that stands
Speaker 1: out here, the thing that makes people remember this, is
Speaker 1: that Mick Marshall, who was no angel. He was involved
Speaker 1: in the drug trade, the nightclub scene, etc. He was
Speaker 1: shot in the head outside his house in Southierra while
Speaker 1: holding the hand of his five year old son. And
Speaker 1: I think that scene that unfolded that night in two
Speaker 1: thousand and three really upset some of the police that
Speaker 1: were involved in pursuing Mockbell, and I think it made
Speaker 1: them redouble their efforts to try and nail him. I
Speaker 1: have with me in the studio today Anthony Dowsley, who
Speaker 1: has been following Mockbell and his story very closely for
Speaker 1: many years. I'd suggest, and he probably most of your
Speaker 1: adult working life, is that true or getting close to it,
Speaker 1: and give us a short history of Tony Mockbell.
Speaker 2: Tony Mockbell is surely one of the most infamous figures
Speaker 2: from the Gangland era. He is mainly known for being
Speaker 2: a drug baron. His trajectory into that life was through
Speaker 2: small business, into dealing some drugs, into setting up methamphidamin labs,
Speaker 2: to becoming a person that was trying to organize billion
Speaker 2: dollar imports into Australia. He became associated with people like
Speaker 2: Carl Williams, but he had his own crew and that
Speaker 2: didn't necessarily involve Williams. It involved his brothers and drug
Speaker 2: cooks and an assortment of different scully wags that could
Speaker 2: make him a rich man. And he ends up getting caught.
Speaker 2: He ends up in trials and he fled from a
Speaker 2: trial in two thousand and six where Nicola Gobbo was
Speaker 2: his lawyer. Now, when I mentioned Nicola Gobbo, she was
Speaker 2: a barrister that had relationships with the underworld. Her biggest
Speaker 2: client was Tiny Mockbell, and they were so close that
Speaker 2: they even lived in apartments not far from one another.
Speaker 2: And I think that was Gobbo's doing. And as time
Speaker 2: would go on, she would start to resent mock Bell
Speaker 2: and his cartel. I guess it was because of her
Speaker 2: treatment that her job was really to protect the king,
Speaker 2: and that was to really save him from ever being
Speaker 2: in court if she could get others to take charges
Speaker 2: for him. It was really about protecting the king, which
Speaker 2: was Mockbell. It would so happen that that leads her
Speaker 2: into the arms of police, who recruited her to become
Speaker 2: a registered informer and give her the code name Human
Speaker 2: Source eight three eight. And from there the first question
Speaker 2: she was asked when she meets with her handlers. The
Speaker 2: first question they asked her was, can you tell me
Speaker 2: everything you can about Tony Mockbell? When that is going
Speaker 2: on at September two thousand and five, she is only
Speaker 2: months away from representing him in a trial over cocaine importation.
Speaker 2: She's wearing two hats at the one time. She's a
Speaker 2: double agent. By then, she's going to betray him, and
Speaker 2: she does, and all of his cartel, who were also
Speaker 2: her clients. When the Herald's son found out about this scheme,
Speaker 2: we would dub her lawyer ex protect her identity for
Speaker 2: some time until later down the track, about five years,
Speaker 2: when we could expose the full story because we were
Speaker 2: facing many suppression orders after we published our first article.
Speaker 2: Now back then in two thousand and six, Tony Mockbell
Speaker 2: he alleges that Nicolagobo told him to flee, and he
Speaker 2: did flee. He went to Bonnie Dune in country Victoria,
Speaker 2: stayed there for a number of months, maybe him up
Speaker 2: to nine months. And then while he's there, he's organized
Speaker 2: a large yacht I think it was fifty seven foot
Speaker 2: yacht named he Edwena to be transported from I think
Speaker 2: it was Newcastle all the way across country to Fremantle
Speaker 2: as a Greek crew that get on board and they
Speaker 2: sail up to somewhere near Geraldton. And then Tony mockbells
Speaker 2: meanwhile being transported across the country in an suv and
Speaker 2: he boards that yacht and he goes sailing. He goes
Speaker 2: sailing all the way to Grace. Would have taken probably months,
Speaker 2: and he's on the run for fifteen months until he
Speaker 2: was caught because an informer named thirty thirty gives police
Speaker 2: the tip off as to not only the drug offenses
Speaker 2: that are going on at the time, but he knows
Speaker 2: where he is, he knows he has phone numbers and
Speaker 2: things like that, so they're able to track him down
Speaker 2: to Greece and thirty thirty becomes a person that gets
Speaker 2: a large reward for his work with police. Strangely, he
Speaker 2: knew police because he was a professional musician and there's
Speaker 2: a police officer named Ross Gunther who was also a
Speaker 2: professional musician, and they knew each other. And Ross was
Speaker 2: a sax player. I don't know what thirty thirty was,
Speaker 2: but Rosskunter played the saxophone and that's where that relationship
Speaker 2: comes into it. Down the track, as we all know,
Speaker 2: Mockbell would learn of the lawyer ex scandal through the
Speaker 2: Herald Son and that was in twenty fourteen when it
Speaker 2: was first exposed, and it's taken him eleven years to
Speaker 2: get to the end of his process, which is coming
Speaker 2: soon his appeal, but only a couple of weeks ago
Speaker 2: he was given bail and he's now tasted freedom. Now.
Speaker 2: Tony Mockbell was always someone that was flamboyant. He was
Speaker 2: the one that had the flashy car he did, and
Speaker 2: he ended up having a fluttery girlfriend he did. And
Speaker 2: I'm not sure that he was ever ordering any murders, no,
Speaker 2: because he was acquitted of the murder of Lewis Moran,
Speaker 2: and the prosecution withdrew the charges on the Michael Marshall murder.
Speaker 1: That's true, and that's fair enough to by the letter
Speaker 1: of the law. That is absolutely true, by the letter
Speaker 1: of the law. He is not a murderer. However, there
Speaker 1: are those who would suggest that, you know, there was
Speaker 1: very good grounds to having charged.
Speaker 2: He's always contended that he's a businessman, that business may
Speaker 2: be drugs, and that killing was never his game.
Speaker 1: Fair enough, well, he assays, he would say that, would
Speaker 1: he not. What do you think happened with Michael Marshall,
Speaker 1: the father of the little boy who was mown down
Speaker 1: in South Arape shot in the head four times.
Speaker 2: It was murder and Chadstone a little while before that,
Speaker 2: and many people believe that it's linked to that because
Speaker 2: Carl Williams wanted it to throw off that it might
Speaker 2: have been Michael Marshall that was in the middle of
Speaker 2: that in some way.
Speaker 1: Willie Thompson. Willie Thompson murdered only probably a month before
Speaker 1: or something any sports car outside at Martial Arts Gym
Speaker 1: near the big intersection of Springvale Road and out there somewhere.
Speaker 1: He came out late in the evening, somebody shot him
Speaker 1: extremely dead in his open top sportscar. Not a great thing.
Speaker 2: He had a Honda.
Speaker 1: Lovely thing until somebody wants to shoot you. Yeah, there
Speaker 1: were a lot of upset people.
Speaker 2: But I don't think we ever got the answers on
Speaker 2: Willie thompson'solved.
Speaker 1: You don't think it might have been people paid by
Speaker 1: Carl Williams, that it would be a drug or problem.
Speaker 2: Maybe so, But I don't know what Willy has to
Speaker 2: do with Carl Williams.
Speaker 1: Would that Willie's quite friendly with Mockbell and Carl. It
Speaker 1: wouldn't bey the Carl. But when Willie gets shot, Mockbelly
Speaker 1: so upset that for a minute, or an hour or
Speaker 1: a week, he forgets that he's a respectable businessman who
Speaker 1: just deals in drugs and thinks, I'd like to knock
Speaker 1: off whoever killed my friend Willie Thompson. And he talked
Speaker 1: to Carl Williams about it and said who did it
Speaker 1: or whatever? And he was fed a line that it
Speaker 1: was Michael Marshall. Is that right?
Speaker 2: But that was that was the theory.
Speaker 1: That's the theory. You don't really hold the view that
Speaker 1: Mockbell is responsible for the murder of Michael Marshall because
Speaker 1: he was not convicted of it. There was a charge
Speaker 1: is laid, but they were noted, as they say in
Speaker 1: the law with drawn, withdrawn, And in fact Carl Williams,
Speaker 1: a bloke who I would suggest broken the murder, was
Speaker 1: charged and convicted of it.
Speaker 2: It was and that trial sort of slipped under the
Speaker 2: radar because Carlwims had so many murder charges all at once.
Speaker 2: The Michael Marshall one wasn't in the media when it
Speaker 2: was going through its trial because it was basically suppressed.
Speaker 2: And at the end of that trial Carlwbms pleaded not guilty,
Speaker 2: he was found guilty. But Mockbell, he's not in that trial.
Speaker 2: He's not there, his name's not raised. So is this
Speaker 2: a case if you were guessing, is this a case.
Speaker 1: Of a sort of a street level, gutter level politician
Speaker 1: like Carl Williams thinking he's a very wealthy drug dealer
Speaker 1: with a lot of money. I don't think I better
Speaker 1: be dragging his name through the mud too much in
Speaker 1: case I need the phone or friend.
Speaker 2: Well, as we know, Carl Williams in the end, you know,
Speaker 2: was cooperating, but he never put Mockbell in for anything,
Speaker 2: and not that I know about.
Speaker 1: No, but that's what I'm saying, he would not because.
Speaker 2: So maybe he's not involved at all in anything well
Speaker 2: in these particular heinous man.
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, fair enough. Well that's an interesting view. So
Speaker 1: the fact that some people would suggest that mock Bell
Speaker 1: not only is a big time drug dealer, a ruthless
Speaker 1: drug dealer, probably really a ruthless businessman in drug sceense,
Speaker 1: wouldn't suggest that he was able to hire enforces to
Speaker 1: enforce his will and when people didn't pay, when people
Speaker 1: tried to rob him, rip him off, whatever, that he
Speaker 1: wouldn't tool up using hired hitmen, bash artists, whatever it takes.
Speaker 1: Don't think so, Well, it.
Speaker 2: Depends on what the subscribe to. That all major criminals
Speaker 2: have to get involved in murder. I don't think that
Speaker 2: they necessarily go hand in hand.
Speaker 1: No, not all of them, that's true.
Speaker 2: So, I mean it would be a testing environment, a
Speaker 2: very challenging environment to be in where there's a marketplace
Speaker 2: and there's only so many players and everyone's trying.
Speaker 1: To be dominant.
Speaker 2: Yes, it would be very true, and it was. They
Speaker 2: were heady times, they were, But I think that many
Speaker 2: have the view that Mockbell on occasions, it's particularly one occasion,
Speaker 2: was badly beaten. He was by a BIKI type from Perth. Yes,
Speaker 2: we can probably say his name, Troy mcanty. That's him.
Speaker 2: And I don't think there was any revenge for that.
Speaker 1: No, I noticed that. I don't think so.
Speaker 2: So you know a lot of people have been asking
Speaker 2: since Tony Mockbell got out of walked out of the
Speaker 2: Appeal Court, out of the Supreme Court of Victoria, does
Speaker 2: anyone you know is he in danger or is he
Speaker 2: danger to anyone else? I wouldn't think so. No, probably
Speaker 2: not been eighteen years.
Speaker 1: It's been eighteen years, that is true. He's not as
Speaker 1: volatile as some, that is true, and yet probably that
Speaker 1: gets him. It's by comparison with some of the hotal
Speaker 1: volatile people that would kill people as soon as look
Speaker 1: at them, he seems almost reasonable. That doesn't make him
Speaker 1: necessarily stand up citizen in many respects, for instance, this
Speaker 1: shooting of Michael Marshall. And let's get real, there was
Speaker 1: a meeting at the Red Rooster at Cornral Moorland and
Speaker 1: Melvill Ropes in Coburg, which I think he's right there
Speaker 1: with it. Interestingly where the Mockbell family will grew up,
Speaker 1: all the.
Speaker 2: Boys and their sisters and a little bit of animated.
Speaker 1: Animated meeting, Yes between a meeting broken or hosted really
Speaker 1: by Carl Williams, arranged by Carl Williams. So here's my friend, Tony,
Speaker 1: here's my friend. They gave them code names, but we'll
Speaker 1: call them the shooter and the driver. Is that okay?
Speaker 1: And they chat chat chat, and then Williams and driver
Speaker 1: go to one side, and Tony Mockbell is left chatting
Speaker 1: to the shooter interestingly, and even though they've met five
Speaker 1: or ten minutes earlier and shook hands, then they shook
Speaker 1: hands again, which intrigued the police who were watching all
Speaker 1: this through long lenses, because they thought, why did they
Speaker 1: shake hands in the middle of a conversation, And they thought, oh,
Speaker 1: we think he Tony palmed something to him. And indeed
Speaker 1: they saw that the shooter's hand go into his pocket
Speaker 1: as if he palmed something into his pocket. And I
Speaker 1: don't think this chewing gum. I think it was probably
Speaker 1: a piece of paper. And what the shooter told the
Speaker 1: police a long time later when they arrested him, or
Speaker 1: sometime later when they arrested him, and they talked about
Speaker 1: all this and he decided to basically give evidence against
Speaker 1: all these guys. He said, Yeah, he gave me a
Speaker 1: piece of paper with an address or two addresses on it,
Speaker 1: one in Collingwood, won in South Era, and the registration
Speaker 1: of a car.
Speaker 2: So it wasn't I want a chicken roll.
Speaker 1: No, it was chips. I don't think it was because
Speaker 1: you thought he's doubling up as an uber rather well.
Speaker 2: He fat tony. Back then it might have been quite
Speaker 2: an order.
Speaker 1: A big order. He was a good tippo too.
Speaker 2: Well. I didn't notice when I saw him in court
Speaker 2: that he's slimmed down. And back then when he fled
Speaker 2: in two thousand and six, he was carrying a little
Speaker 2: bit he was. And you know he's headed off to
Speaker 2: Bonnie Dune and his girlfriend followed him there, and I
Speaker 2: think they got pregnant while she was there, and was
Speaker 2: all under the radar secret no one could find him.
Speaker 2: A big man hunt going on. And then he heads
Speaker 2: off over the nuther.
Speaker 1: Ball magic story. As you said earlier, he buys a
Speaker 1: yacht or gets his mate, a funny little man, a
Speaker 1: friend of his, to buy a yacht in Sydney. I
Speaker 1: think it was up. It wasn't, And they demastered it
Speaker 1: and they put it on the great big trailer and
Speaker 1: they tow it across another ball with a great big
Speaker 1: truck or whatever, and they get it to from Mantle
Speaker 1: and they put it on the slips or whatever work
Speaker 1: on it. They build a secret compartment in the cabin
Speaker 1: so that just enough for one thick set man to
Speaker 1: sneak into.
Speaker 2: Yes, with the toilet.
Speaker 1: Yes, pretty pretty tricky. And he's got a Greek crew
Speaker 1: from Greece that he imputed experts seamen, no Australian connections,
Speaker 1: good idea, and he wants to give them a good time,
Speaker 1: so he sends them all to a massage parlor the
Speaker 1: night before they leave from Mantle.
Speaker 2: Is that why they had a copy of Berry White?
Speaker 1: They had a copy of only one ceed allegedly. I
Speaker 1: hope that's true because it's been said many times. So anyway,
Speaker 1: the great crew they sailed north to Geralton to basically
Speaker 1: a port where nothing but big you know, iron all
Speaker 1: ships go out, and Tony drives up in the car
Speaker 1: with the family. You know that trip across the Null
Speaker 1: Bay that he took himself. He was in tell me
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong here. I think a station wagon. It's
Speaker 1: a family on tour like Griswold's on.
Speaker 2: To su Yeah, the family truck stuff.
Speaker 1: Mum and dad in the front driving old couple and
Speaker 1: in the back is Tony. And they pretended he was
Speaker 1: a deaf mute.
Speaker 2: Yes they did.
Speaker 1: No where's isn't it perfect? Where's the deaf mute? And
Speaker 1: that was his cover when he went across a nullboy.
Speaker 1: He couldn't speak or do anything much, and they treated him,
Speaker 1: you know, as if he was needed to be helped
Speaker 1: at all times, and that sort of would alleviate any
Speaker 1: suspicion of him. And they kept this up, this charade
Speaker 1: all the way to Geralton, and then he pops in
Speaker 1: the secret compartment and they seal it up and they
Speaker 1: go to sea, and of course he's locked in the
Speaker 1: secret compartment for three days I think, to get well out.
Speaker 1: And he was very, very sick. Yes, I think he
Speaker 1: earned his freedom to do that. To be locked in
Speaker 1: a tiny compartment on a yacht that's pitching around, I
Speaker 1: think it'd be like being in a coffin. And he
Speaker 1: apparently he was sick all the way across.
Speaker 2: That's maybe why he's twenty kilos lighter now will it'll
Speaker 2: be a good start. Well do you know that? You
Speaker 2: know my name is Tony as well over to some people. Yes,
Speaker 2: And when I walk into court the other day and
Speaker 2: he's thin and I've got fat in the last twenty years.
Speaker 1: Oh, you've swapped.
Speaker 2: Yeah, now I'm fat Tony.
Speaker 1: You're fat Tony. Yeah. Do you know the real story
Speaker 1: Harry got that nickname?
Speaker 2: Oh, probably a journo.
Speaker 1: It was a pair of journeys who had a photograph
Speaker 1: of his seized Verrari car with had whatever number of
Speaker 1: plates it had. I'm not sure it was the are
Speaker 1: you there number plates, but anyway, whatever number plates it
Speaker 1: had had to be pixelated out. But what this pair did,
Speaker 1: and I was one of them, was get a fellow
Speaker 1: with a computer to mock up number plates on the car,
Speaker 1: and we put fat Tony plates on the Marari and
Speaker 1: it took hold. We thought it was sort of a
Speaker 1: reasonably corny, funny homage to fat Tony in the Simpsons. Anyway,
Speaker 1: took hold, and everybody assumed that he'd always been called
Speaker 1: fat Tony. But that's where it started.
Speaker 2: He's had so many names, big Wig.
Speaker 1: Big Wig, so you do your bit for big Wig.
Speaker 2: I do like a bit of big Wig.
Speaker 1: I think it's one of the reasons people sort of
Speaker 1: smile about Tony Mockbell. It's the whole big thing.
Speaker 2: Do you think that he's got a sort of nature
Speaker 2: that people don't think he's you know, he's been affable,
Speaker 2: he's a character.
Speaker 1: He's affable and amiable, like good salesmen are. Doesn't mean
Speaker 1: they wouldn't run over you if they had to. I
Speaker 1: think that's the point I'm making it. In the end,
Speaker 1: I've been.
Speaker 2: Out side the Supreme Court and few people that have
Speaker 2: been released, and it's I think it's the first time
Speaker 2: I've heard cheering.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. He's become a bit stunned, a folkloreic figure,
Speaker 1: yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: And he was smiling.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And he he arrived in a bear Cat, which is
Speaker 2: a big armored sort of big tank of a vehicle
Speaker 2: and you know the police used for the most high
Speaker 2: security what's the s ESG. You know that it's a
Speaker 2: big tank of a thing with big fat tires. He
Speaker 2: rolls up in that and he leaves in a AMG
Speaker 2: Mercedes Benz probably worth over one hundred and eighty thousand dollars.
Speaker 2: It was quite something.
Speaker 1: Oh, that's very good. Matt Black, Matt Black, Matt Black,
Speaker 1: Mate Black's the color of gangster it is. And any
Speaker 1: idea who his lady friend is and where he found
Speaker 1: her while he was in jail for ten years. Were
Speaker 1: they pen friends?
Speaker 2: Well, there either being pen friends or they have a
Speaker 2: mutual friend Oh, I see, I don't know a lot
Speaker 2: about her.
Speaker 1: Do you think she might be Lebanese?
Speaker 2: No, she might be part Lebanese. I think she might
Speaker 2: be Italian.
Speaker 1: Oh, I say, okay, she's got a touch of the
Speaker 1: nanamuscuri with the heavy glasses.
Speaker 2: What I am told is that it is a long
Speaker 2: term friendship, friendship and relationship, and that I think that
Speaker 2: it sort of she was there with him or not
Speaker 2: with him, but in the court during these long determination
Speaker 2: hearings that went on last year. Yeah, so I think
Speaker 2: it's committed relationship. They're truly together, and you know, it's
Speaker 2: not some sort of lady come lately's. I think it's
Speaker 2: more than that.
Speaker 1: One hesitates to make judgments about anything to do with
Speaker 1: these sort of matters. But she does not struck you
Speaker 1: as the twenty five year old dripper from the nightclub
Speaker 1: that he once would have run around with. Not at all.
Speaker 1: She's very different, isn't she would appear.
Speaker 2: I don't know much about who she is or where
Speaker 2: she's from, but I have heard a little bit, and
Speaker 2: I think it's you know, it's been a reasonably heavy
Speaker 2: relationship in terms of I don't think you can do
Speaker 2: much while you're in jail. You might be able to
Speaker 2: have some form of contact, but not much.
Speaker 1: I could write some lovely letters, write.
Speaker 2: Letters visits, but it seems to be the real deal.
Speaker 2: That's not trying to say.
Speaker 1: Could they have conjugal visits?
Speaker 2: Good question?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 2: Up until recently, I don't think there has been. But
Speaker 2: up until recently, I didn't think you could have conjugal
Speaker 2: visits in maximum security prisons. But someone has been telling
Speaker 2: me that it is possible if you meet some requirements.
Speaker 2: But I will check it out.
Speaker 1: What would they?
Speaker 2: But you are not convicted of sex offenses? Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: and you do not have a history of family violence,
Speaker 2: and you are in a relationship with someone for over
Speaker 2: a year. Maybe that's some of the I'll get back
Speaker 2: to you.
Speaker 1: That is very interesting. Now for those who aren't Latin scholars,
Speaker 1: I know that you are, But for some of our listeners,
Speaker 1: how would you describe a conjugal visit.
Speaker 2: It's the sort of thing that you play Berry White.
Speaker 1: Too, all right, full body contact. He's the thing Anny
Speaker 1: Tony Mockbell we're talking about. He goes to his mother's grave,
Speaker 1: which is of course you would naturally he've been in
Speaker 1: jail Friday years and he's praying there. Well good on him.
Speaker 1: And he turns up at the Maronite Catholic church in
Speaker 1: Thornbury just a couple of weeks ago, and I think
Speaker 1: much to the interest of the congregation and a few
Speaker 1: Rubbern Eckerside suggest and a few journals, and there he
Speaker 1: is doing the full monty at church and probably put
Speaker 1: an amount of money in the collection plate, I imagine. But
Speaker 1: it's an interesting scenario, or an interesting dilemma for church,
Speaker 1: isn't it That here's somebody who, even on the best slant,
Speaker 1: is a serious international drug trafficker and hire of other
Speaker 1: criminals to do dirty work, etc. Etc. Etc. In a sense,
Speaker 1: his money is tainted by any value judgment, money is tainted,
Speaker 1: and yet he is welcomed into the church. That church,
Speaker 1: like all others, has actual policy about never doing anything
Speaker 1: to children or have children harmed or traumatized, etc. As
Speaker 1: you'd expect. They've got a published version of that. You
Speaker 1: can look it up. But I'm suggesting, and you're doubting it,
Speaker 1: but I'm suggesting that he was well involved in the
Speaker 1: shooting of Michael Marshall, a man who, as I said earlier,
Speaker 1: was holding onto the hand of a five year old
Speaker 1: child who saw his father shot I think four times
Speaker 1: in the head, three times and then one more, most awful,
Speaker 1: shocking crime. That must have had a terrible effect on
Speaker 1: that child growing up. That boy would now be twenty seven.
Speaker 1: We don't know what damage it's done to him, but
Speaker 1: it surely must have. You know. I know we joke
Speaker 1: a lot about Tony Rockbell and a lot of crime,
Speaker 1: but there's nothing funny about that alone when it comes
Speaker 1: down to it. When he was in church, you know,
Speaker 1: doing all that nice stuff, did he think about that
Speaker 1: little kid?
Speaker 2: But you're making the assumption that he's got something to
Speaker 2: do with it?
Speaker 1: I am indeed, I'll stick with that.
Speaker 2: And you know we've got.
Speaker 1: You're playing the Dermitt dancard that there's no proof.
Speaker 2: There is someone convicted from this. There's the hit men. Yep,
Speaker 2: there were two of them. There was a driver and
Speaker 2: a shooter.
Speaker 1: The one's paid by Tony rock Bell or in this
Speaker 1: case not bait he gi zump them.
Speaker 2: But why do he keep saying that?
Speaker 1: Why do I because he was wanting this done because
Speaker 1: he was friendly with william one of the avenged.
Speaker 2: Well, we know that Carl Williams is the one who's
Speaker 2: ordered it. That's been established, it's convicted. The charges were
Speaker 2: withdrawn against Tony Mockbell, and some people say that that
Speaker 2: charge was laid against Tony Mockbell to get him back
Speaker 2: from Greece, to make it stronger for the extradition. Now,
Speaker 2: back then, when he's on trial in two thousand and six.
Speaker 1: He knew it was coming because he'd been tipped off
Speaker 1: that you better get out or you better do something
Speaker 1: because these murder charges are coming.
Speaker 2: This is when he's on trial for six in March, learns,
Speaker 2: maybe by Nicolagobo, probably by Nicolao.
Speaker 1: There's a murder charge coming, that the murder charges are
Speaker 1: coming ahead of him.
Speaker 2: And she would learn that from her.
Speaker 1: From very good police sawce so knew one of the
Speaker 1: many police sources who knew her. Well, that's right, she
Speaker 1: was generous.
Speaker 2: So he hears about that, and he thinks he was
Speaker 2: going to go down on the cocaine trial he was
Speaker 2: on found enough of this and he probably already had
Speaker 2: it in the back of his mind. I think the
Speaker 2: planning must have been in with the boat and everything,
Speaker 2: or it was a possibility to do it. That might
Speaker 2: have been, because that would have taken a bit of doing.
Speaker 2: But he was in Bonnie doing for months. He was
Speaker 2: there a long time and then he goes on his
Speaker 2: track does he comes back via a golfstream jet.
Speaker 1: He was joined while he was there, of course by
Speaker 1: his lady loves. He was of the time he had
Speaker 1: a baby and the baby. You know, he's been quite
Speaker 1: a generous partner in life to several people. When one
Speaker 1: of them was Danneel Maguire, who I think was not
Speaker 1: a step daughter really, but her mother was the partner
Speaker 1: of somebody who met once Rodney.
Speaker 2: Collins, Rodney Collins, and he give us.
Speaker 1: Some background on Rodney Collins.
Speaker 2: Rodney Collins was a notorious hit man. He was the
Speaker 2: baddest of the bad. He often used as a method
Speaker 2: slitting throats, but he also would use guns and shoot
Speaker 2: people in the back of the head. He would become
Speaker 2: a person of interest and charged over the hit on
Speaker 2: the Hodson couple, Terry and Christine Hodson, who were informers,
Speaker 2: but that trial would never go ahead. Collins would take
Speaker 2: his secrets to the grave. In twenty seventeen, he died
Speaker 2: in prison. A very dangerous man.
Speaker 1: Very dangerous man and scary bloke. Yes, and would kid
Speaker 1: you for fun. Yes. Once killed an irishman because he
Speaker 1: didn't like his jokes. He shot you're joking, that's true.
Speaker 1: I know that a party a party. Oh, that did happen.
Speaker 1: It did happen. It did. He shot the bloke he said.
Speaker 2: He shot him in the leg.
Speaker 1: Shut up.
Speaker 2: I thought that. I thought you were joking.
Speaker 1: No, he did. He shot an Irish bloke. It was
Speaker 1: and I think the bluck died. Didn't he anyway shot him?
Speaker 2: I think he just shot him in the leg.
Speaker 1: Very bad, very bad man. Cut people's throats just for
Speaker 1: being witnesses. They weren't even the people that he was
Speaker 1: there to kill.
Speaker 2: Yes, so that's another person.
Speaker 1: That So that goes to the sort of people, the crew.
Speaker 2: The kind of so shits you make during a gangland war.
Speaker 2: And you are right, you do meet some ruthless people
Speaker 2: in that business. There's no doubt about that.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: When I used to go and visit a Miss Madden,
Speaker 2: I think it.
Speaker 1: Was this is a teenage confession. What is this? Who's
Speaker 1: miss Madden?
Speaker 2: Daniel Maguire's mother, Joan?
Speaker 1: Her first name was, yes, Joan Madden.
Speaker 2: I think. So she used to live out in Foots Gray.
Speaker 2: What did she I like to visit Foots Gray because
Speaker 2: I barrock for Foots Grad. Yes, so I'd go out
Speaker 2: there because someone told me she lived out there. And
Speaker 2: she used to tell me that Tony was a better
Speaker 2: father to Daniel's already her first child, so it was
Speaker 2: his stepchild than the real father, whoever that was, could be.
Speaker 2: So she defended him and they were on the run.
Speaker 2: That's what i'd go out visit.
Speaker 1: I wanted to know where they were.
Speaker 2: She didn't tell me.
Speaker 1: No, I was shocked. That's right, you'd be shocked. But
Speaker 1: you could go to the football while you were there
Speaker 1: and put the whole put the whole thing on expenses,
Speaker 1: that's right. So you probably had to take her to
Speaker 1: the football.
Speaker 2: I don't know if she was a Doggies fan, but
Speaker 2: possibly she ended up there was a media scrum one
Speaker 2: day out there, so I lost my sort of you know,
Speaker 2: my exclusivity to this particular person. And lo and behold
Speaker 2: she had complained about me to Colins.
Speaker 1: No, that's not good. No. And what happened then, Well,
Speaker 1: I didn't really know who was Well did you find out?
Speaker 2: I was just told he was a bit of a psycho.
Speaker 2: That's just just a bit of a bad.
Speaker 1: She complained, What this bloke's bothering me?
Speaker 2: I was a botherer, right?
Speaker 1: And where was Where was Colins? At this stage?
Speaker 2: He was in a I think one of those old
Speaker 2: beat up magnas might have been my own, sitting outside
Speaker 2: the house. And he I did me set eyes on me?
Speaker 2: He said, he looked like skeletor to me. You could
Speaker 2: I immediately sensed that he was dangerous. Yes, And he
Speaker 2: said meet me tonight and I'll give you a picture
Speaker 2: of Mockbell and Danny l and the baby over and
Speaker 2: Greece and all that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: Did you believe him?
Speaker 2: I was quite gullible. The chase of a good story,
Speaker 2: you will almost do anything.
Speaker 1: Did you want to meet you? I think I think
Speaker 1: you might have mentioned this to me once, but I
Speaker 1: think it was just north of the city.
Speaker 2: Was just north of the city he wondered. I picked
Speaker 2: a public place because I thought, well, you know, if
Speaker 2: things go bad, you know, maybe I'm in a pub
Speaker 2: or something like a bears bad. So what's that suburb
Speaker 2: just past Collingwood.
Speaker 1: Well it's Clifton Hill.
Speaker 2: That's where I went, Clifton Hill, and edien't turned up.
Speaker 2: And then I think I called him or he called me,
Speaker 2: and he said meet me somewhere else. And then I
Speaker 2: ended up in a car park in the drizzly rain,
Speaker 2: and my only protection was a a photographer who didn't
Speaker 2: want to get out of the car. No, so I
Speaker 2: went and spoke to him, to Rodney Collins, who had
Speaker 2: many aliases.
Speaker 1: Yes, duke, and he was a lot.
Speaker 2: More fearsome than some of the big guys that are
Speaker 2: getting around because he was wearing this big jacket odds on,
Speaker 2: he was tooled up. He would have had a gun.
Speaker 2: He became a little bit threatening. He wanted me to
Speaker 2: give him some money. Naturally he didn't have a photo.
Speaker 1: No, he work you over for but I stood my ground.
Speaker 2: I said, no, no photo.
Speaker 1: I'm a doggie supporter.
Speaker 2: I had no money on me, And how do you
Speaker 2: go with that? I thought, you just wanted to give
Speaker 2: me a photo for the benefit of the community.
Speaker 1: And how do you go with that?
Speaker 2: He backed off.
Speaker 1: Well, that's good because you know he used to cut
Speaker 1: throats for fun.
Speaker 2: You were kind of having fun that he could have
Speaker 2: cut my throat.
Speaker 1: No, I'm not at all. But he had bad manners,
Speaker 1: bad hygiene. He used another guy's toothbrush in jail and
Speaker 1: they nearly killed him. The other people didn't appreciate it,
Speaker 1: really because I think in jail where he couldn't get guns,
Speaker 1: he was outgunned.
Speaker 2: Then, well, I have heard some prison fine conversations of his.
Speaker 2: He had a girlfriend. Did he lived out Dan diong
Speaker 2: Way Right, he's worked for the government.
Speaker 1: So this is not Daniel's mum.
Speaker 2: No, this is not Danielle's mum. Is another woman. And
Speaker 2: they talked a lot about getting a reward for information
Speaker 2: from Rodney, did they? Rodney was interested in her.
Speaker 1: He would re mock belt Ree Hodson's Oh, I see
Speaker 1: how they could possibly work that out somehow that she
Speaker 1: could claim, well.
Speaker 2: If he got the money for the potential that he
Speaker 2: could give them information on that that might have been
Speaker 2: worthwhile in his eyes, because I think he was doing
Speaker 2: a big stint over a double murder, wasn't he he was?
Speaker 1: I don't see how he could tell the truth about
Speaker 1: any of it without implicating himself. But anyway, he would
Speaker 1: be tempted to try because he's you know, a million
Speaker 1: bucks are sere? That's right, Yet another example of rewards
Speaker 1: attract people, but they don't actually get paid off.
Speaker 2: But back to Tony mock Bell, Yes, what happens now?
Speaker 1: What happens now? Well, we'll find out who Nanimous Scury is.
Speaker 1: We'll get sick of seeing him go to church, and
Speaker 1: he'll probably get sick of it.
Speaker 2: Why isn't he allowed to go to church?
Speaker 1: He's allowed, of course he's allowed. He should go to
Speaker 1: church and repent.
Speaker 2: But do you think he should have got But.
Speaker 1: I don't for this reason. This reason is the case
Speaker 1: against him is watertight on certain things that had nothing
Speaker 1: to do with Goba.
Speaker 2: Well on one thing, well.
Speaker 1: That's enough, just one gun of the force.
Speaker 2: One goat one of the four that he was imprisoned on.
Speaker 1: Well, these are serious charges, yeah, no doubt I agree
Speaker 1: with that. The one that was where the so called musician.
Speaker 2: So I'll set down what he's in there on you'll
Speaker 2: sit down. There was a trial in two thousand and
Speaker 2: six over cocaine importation. He went down on that even
Speaker 2: though he'd fled, so he begins serving that. When he
Speaker 2: gets back in two thousand and eight, got nine years.
Speaker 1: With a twelve maximum.
Speaker 2: I think they called that one platonium or something similar.
Speaker 2: Then when he got back he had all these charges.
Speaker 2: I think there was like eight of them or something,
Speaker 2: big operations. I think one was called spake and he
Speaker 2: did a big plea deal. One was called matchless. It
Speaker 2: was orbital, quills, magnum. They're the three that he said,
Speaker 2: all right, I am going to plead.
Speaker 1: Up to these. Okay, let's get to the chase. Which
Speaker 1: ones were tainted by Gobbo?
Speaker 2: Those three, Well, what's being suggested is that quills and
Speaker 2: orbital are tainted, and magnum may not be.
Speaker 1: Well. I think there's certainly one that's got nothing to
Speaker 1: do with her, because it was the guy that got
Speaker 1: a musician.
Speaker 2: So it's he's international offending. He's offending while in Greece
Speaker 2: that they say is not tainted. But if you were
Speaker 2: Mockbell's lawyer, you would be saying it's all tainted.
Speaker 1: You would of because you're getting paid to say that,
Speaker 1: so you would say it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you might have to have a reason.
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course there's always a reason.
Speaker 2: Was his extradition tainted?
Speaker 1: It's a very good question, and a jamboree of lawyers
Speaker 1: and others will will be spend a lot of time
Speaker 1: and money sorting through it.
Speaker 2: It's not that hard.
Speaker 1: It's not that hard, right, What will be the result?
Speaker 2: Well, she charged him, Nicolagoo charged him for eighteen hundred
Speaker 2: dollars of legal advice on his extradition. She was one
Speaker 2: of the first people he called when he was captured
Speaker 2: in Greece. Can you come over, Nick, I need you
Speaker 2: hear you know, sorry, I left all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2: And they talk about his extradition and his strategy and
Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. It's few phone calls she
Speaker 2: charged him for it, gave him some advice, and it's
Speaker 2: be telling everything to place. That's a problem.
Speaker 1: That's a problem with the expedition. Okay. So the bottom
Speaker 1: line is this story, the story of Tony Mockbell, is
Speaker 1: far from over. Yep. The public interest in him will
Speaker 1: probably wane a little, but it's a long way from over.
Speaker 2: And stay tuned, stay tuned.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald
Speaker 1: Sun production for True Crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton.
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