1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Do you know the real story Harry got that nickname, 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:09,039 Speaker 1: probably a Jano. It was a pair of journeys who 3 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: had a photograph of his seized Ferrari car. Whatever number 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: plates it had had to be pixelighted out. But what 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: this pair did, and I was one of them, was 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: get a fellow with a computer to mock up number 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: plates on the car, and we put fat Tony plates 8 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: on Lara and it took hold. I'm Andrew Rules's Life 9 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:36,959 Speaker 1: and crimes. Recently, my colleague Mark Butler and I did 10 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 1: a story about Tony Mockbell because Tony Mockbell has become 11 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: very big news once more in our city because of 12 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: the fact that he's been released on bail amid much publicity, 13 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 1: and we thought it was time to sort of have 14 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: a good hard look at who he is, who he was, 15 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: what he's done, and really have an un blinking look 16 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:06,680 Speaker 1: at the life and crimes of an international drug trafficker, 17 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: a person who has used his wealth in the past 18 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,839 Speaker 1: to employ killers, standover men, all sorts of bad people 19 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: to do his dirty work for him, and someone, although 20 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,919 Speaker 1: he has never been convicted of murder, has shown himself 21 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 1: quite capable in the past. We would contend of ordering 22 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: others to do that for him, to kill people for him. 23 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: And in fact, there's a very heartbreaking example of a 24 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 1: killing which police are convinced he is due to mock 25 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: bellen his willingness to pay for things to be done. 26 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: Not that he always paid on time or paid the 27 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: full amount, of course, but that is the murder back 28 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: in two thousand and three of Mick Marshall, whose full 29 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: name was Michael Ronald Marshall. And the thing that stands 30 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: out here, the thing that makes people remember this, is 31 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: that Mick Marshall, who was no angel. He was involved 32 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: in the drug trade, the nightclub scene, etc. He was 33 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: shot in the head outside his house in Southierra while 34 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: holding the hand of his five year old son. And 35 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 1: I think that scene that unfolded that night in two 36 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: thousand and three really upset some of the police that 37 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 1: were involved in pursuing Mockbell, and I think it made 38 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 1: them redouble their efforts to try and nail him. I 39 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 1: have with me in the studio today Anthony Dowsley, who 40 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: has been following Mockbell and his story very closely for 41 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:51,239 Speaker 1: many years. I'd suggest, and he probably most of your 42 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: adult working life, is that true or getting close to it, 43 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: and give us a short history of Tony Mockbell. 44 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 2: Tony Mockbell is surely one of the most infamous figures 45 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 2: from the Gangland era. He is mainly known for being 46 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 2: a drug baron. His trajectory into that life was through 47 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 2: small business, into dealing some drugs, into setting up methamphidamin labs, 48 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 2: to becoming a person that was trying to organize billion 49 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: dollar imports into Australia. He became associated with people like 50 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 2: Carl Williams, but he had his own crew and that 51 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 2: didn't necessarily involve Williams. It involved his brothers and drug 52 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 2: cooks and an assortment of different scully wags that could 53 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 2: make him a rich man. And he ends up getting caught. 54 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 2: He ends up in trials and he fled from a 55 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 2: trial in two thousand and six where Nicola Gobbo was 56 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: his lawyer. Now, when I mentioned Nicola Gobbo, she was 57 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 2: a barrister that had relationships with the underworld. Her biggest 58 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 2: client was Tiny Mockbell, and they were so close that 59 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 2: they even lived in apartments not far from one another. 60 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 2: And I think that was Gobbo's doing. And as time 61 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 2: would go on, she would start to resent mock Bell 62 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 2: and his cartel. I guess it was because of her 63 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 2: treatment that her job was really to protect the king, 64 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 2: and that was to really save him from ever being 65 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 2: in court if she could get others to take charges 66 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 2: for him. It was really about protecting the king, which 67 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 2: was Mockbell. It would so happen that that leads her 68 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,239 Speaker 2: into the arms of police, who recruited her to become 69 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 2: a registered informer and give her the code name Human 70 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 2: Source eight three eight. And from there the first question 71 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 2: she was asked when she meets with her handlers. The 72 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 2: first question they asked her was, can you tell me 73 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 2: everything you can about Tony Mockbell? When that is going 74 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 2: on at September two thousand and five, she is only 75 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 2: months away from representing him in a trial over cocaine importation. 76 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 2: She's wearing two hats at the one time. She's a 77 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 2: double agent. By then, she's going to betray him, and 78 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,599 Speaker 2: she does, and all of his cartel, who were also 79 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 2: her clients. When the Herald's son found out about this scheme, 80 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 2: we would dub her lawyer ex protect her identity for 81 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 2: some time until later down the track, about five years, 82 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 2: when we could expose the full story because we were 83 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 2: facing many suppression orders after we published our first article. 84 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 2: Now back then in two thousand and six, Tony Mockbell 85 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 2: he alleges that Nicolagobo told him to flee, and he 86 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:56,919 Speaker 2: did flee. He went to Bonnie Dune in country Victoria, 87 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 2: stayed there for a number of months, maybe him up 88 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 2: to nine months. And then while he's there, he's organized 89 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 2: a large yacht I think it was fifty seven foot 90 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 2: yacht named he Edwena to be transported from I think 91 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 2: it was Newcastle all the way across country to Fremantle 92 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 2: as a Greek crew that get on board and they 93 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 2: sail up to somewhere near Geraldton. And then Tony mockbells 94 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 2: meanwhile being transported across the country in an suv and 95 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 2: he boards that yacht and he goes sailing. He goes 96 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 2: sailing all the way to Grace. Would have taken probably months, 97 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 2: and he's on the run for fifteen months until he 98 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 2: was caught because an informer named thirty thirty gives police 99 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 2: the tip off as to not only the drug offenses 100 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 2: that are going on at the time, but he knows 101 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 2: where he is, he knows he has phone numbers and 102 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 2: things like that, so they're able to track him down 103 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 2: to Greece and thirty thirty becomes a person that gets 104 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 2: a large reward for his work with police. Strangely, he 105 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 2: knew police because he was a professional musician and there's 106 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 2: a police officer named Ross Gunther who was also a 107 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 2: professional musician, and they knew each other. And Ross was 108 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 2: a sax player. I don't know what thirty thirty was, 109 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 2: but Rosskunter played the saxophone and that's where that relationship 110 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 2: comes into it. Down the track, as we all know, 111 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 2: Mockbell would learn of the lawyer ex scandal through the 112 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 2: Herald Son and that was in twenty fourteen when it 113 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 2: was first exposed, and it's taken him eleven years to 114 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 2: get to the end of his process, which is coming 115 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 2: soon his appeal, but only a couple of weeks ago 116 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 2: he was given bail and he's now tasted freedom. Now. 117 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 2: Tony Mockbell was always someone that was flamboyant. He was 118 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 2: the one that had the flashy car he did, and 119 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 2: he ended up having a fluttery girlfriend he did. And 120 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 2: I'm not sure that he was ever ordering any murders, no, 121 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 2: because he was acquitted of the murder of Lewis Moran, 122 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 2: and the prosecution withdrew the charges on the Michael Marshall murder. 123 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: That's true, and that's fair enough to by the letter 124 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: of the law. That is absolutely true, by the letter 125 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 1: of the law. He is not a murderer. However, there 126 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: are those who would suggest that, you know, there was 127 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: very good grounds to having charged. 128 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 2: He's always contended that he's a businessman, that business may 129 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 2: be drugs, and that killing was never his game. 130 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: Fair enough, well, he assays, he would say that, would 131 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 1: he not. What do you think happened with Michael Marshall, 132 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: the father of the little boy who was mown down 133 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: in South Arape shot in the head four times. 134 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 2: It was murder and Chadstone a little while before that, 135 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 2: and many people believe that it's linked to that because 136 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 2: Carl Williams wanted it to throw off that it might 137 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 2: have been Michael Marshall that was in the middle of 138 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 2: that in some way. 139 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,839 Speaker 1: Willie Thompson. Willie Thompson murdered only probably a month before 140 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: or something any sports car outside at Martial Arts Gym 141 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: near the big intersection of Springvale Road and out there somewhere. 142 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: He came out late in the evening, somebody shot him 143 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: extremely dead in his open top sportscar. Not a great thing. 144 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 2: He had a Honda. 145 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: Lovely thing until somebody wants to shoot you. Yeah, there 146 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: were a lot of upset people. 147 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 2: But I don't think we ever got the answers on 148 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 2: Willie thompson'solved. 149 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: You don't think it might have been people paid by 150 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: Carl Williams, that it would be a drug or problem. 151 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 2: Maybe so, But I don't know what Willy has to 152 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 2: do with Carl Williams. 153 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: Would that Willie's quite friendly with Mockbell and Carl. It 154 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: wouldn't bey the Carl. But when Willie gets shot, Mockbelly 155 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: so upset that for a minute, or an hour or 156 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: a week, he forgets that he's a respectable businessman who 157 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: just deals in drugs and thinks, I'd like to knock 158 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: off whoever killed my friend Willie Thompson. And he talked 159 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: to Carl Williams about it and said who did it 160 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: or whatever? And he was fed a line that it 161 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: was Michael Marshall. Is that right? 162 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 2: But that was that was the theory. 163 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: That's the theory. You don't really hold the view that 164 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: Mockbell is responsible for the murder of Michael Marshall because 165 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: he was not convicted of it. There was a charge 166 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: is laid, but they were noted, as they say in 167 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: the law with drawn, withdrawn, And in fact Carl Williams, 168 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,719 Speaker 1: a bloke who I would suggest broken the murder, was 169 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: charged and convicted of it. 170 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 2: It was and that trial sort of slipped under the 171 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 2: radar because Carlwims had so many murder charges all at once. 172 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 2: The Michael Marshall one wasn't in the media when it 173 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 2: was going through its trial because it was basically suppressed. 174 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 2: And at the end of that trial Carlwbms pleaded not guilty, 175 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 2: he was found guilty. But Mockbell, he's not in that trial. 176 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 2: He's not there, his name's not raised. So is this 177 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 2: a case if you were guessing, is this a case. 178 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 1: Of a sort of a street level, gutter level politician 179 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 1: like Carl Williams thinking he's a very wealthy drug dealer 180 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: with a lot of money. I don't think I better 181 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: be dragging his name through the mud too much in 182 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: case I need the phone or friend. 183 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 2: Well, as we know, Carl Williams in the end, you know, 184 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 2: was cooperating, but he never put Mockbell in for anything, 185 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 2: and not that I know about. 186 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: No, but that's what I'm saying, he would not because. 187 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 2: So maybe he's not involved at all in anything well 188 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 2: in these particular heinous man. 189 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: Right, Okay, fair enough. Well that's an interesting view. So 190 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: the fact that some people would suggest that mock Bell 191 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: not only is a big time drug dealer, a ruthless 192 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: drug dealer, probably really a ruthless businessman in drug sceense, 193 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 1: wouldn't suggest that he was able to hire enforces to 194 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: enforce his will and when people didn't pay, when people 195 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: tried to rob him, rip him off, whatever, that he 196 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 1: wouldn't tool up using hired hitmen, bash artists, whatever it takes. 197 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 1: Don't think so, Well, it. 198 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 2: Depends on what the subscribe to. That all major criminals 199 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 2: have to get involved in murder. I don't think that 200 00:12:57,760 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 2: they necessarily go hand in hand. 201 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: No, not all of them, that's true. 202 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 2: So, I mean it would be a testing environment, a 203 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 2: very challenging environment to be in where there's a marketplace 204 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 2: and there's only so many players and everyone's trying. 205 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: To be dominant. 206 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 2: Yes, it would be very true, and it was. They 207 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 2: were heady times, they were, But I think that many 208 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 2: have the view that Mockbell on occasions, it's particularly one occasion, 209 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 2: was badly beaten. He was by a BIKI type from Perth. Yes, 210 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 2: we can probably say his name, Troy mcanty. That's him. 211 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 2: And I don't think there was any revenge for that. 212 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: No, I noticed that. I don't think so. 213 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 2: So you know a lot of people have been asking 214 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 2: since Tony Mockbell got out of walked out of the 215 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 2: Appeal Court, out of the Supreme Court of Victoria, does 216 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 2: anyone you know is he in danger or is he 217 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 2: danger to anyone else? I wouldn't think so. No, probably 218 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 2: not been eighteen years. 219 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 1: It's been eighteen years, that is true. He's not as 220 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: volatile as some, that is true, and yet probably that 221 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: gets him. It's by comparison with some of the hotal 222 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,959 Speaker 1: volatile people that would kill people as soon as look 223 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: at them, he seems almost reasonable. That doesn't make him 224 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: necessarily stand up citizen in many respects, for instance, this 225 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: shooting of Michael Marshall. And let's get real, there was 226 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: a meeting at the Red Rooster at Cornral Moorland and 227 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: Melvill Ropes in Coburg, which I think he's right there 228 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: with it. Interestingly where the Mockbell family will grew up, 229 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: all the. 230 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 2: Boys and their sisters and a little bit of animated. 231 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: Animated meeting, Yes between a meeting broken or hosted really 232 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: by Carl Williams, arranged by Carl Williams. So here's my friend, Tony, 233 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: here's my friend. They gave them code names, but we'll 234 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: call them the shooter and the driver. Is that okay? 235 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: And they chat chat chat, and then Williams and driver 236 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: go to one side, and Tony Mockbell is left chatting 237 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: to the shooter interestingly, and even though they've met five 238 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: or ten minutes earlier and shook hands, then they shook 239 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: hands again, which intrigued the police who were watching all 240 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: this through long lenses, because they thought, why did they 241 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: shake hands in the middle of a conversation, And they thought, oh, 242 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: we think he Tony palmed something to him. And indeed 243 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: they saw that the shooter's hand go into his pocket 244 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: as if he palmed something into his pocket. And I 245 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: don't think this chewing gum. I think it was probably 246 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: a piece of paper. And what the shooter told the 247 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: police a long time later when they arrested him, or 248 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: sometime later when they arrested him, and they talked about 249 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: all this and he decided to basically give evidence against 250 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: all these guys. He said, Yeah, he gave me a 251 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: piece of paper with an address or two addresses on it, 252 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: one in Collingwood, won in South Era, and the registration 253 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: of a car. 254 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 2: So it wasn't I want a chicken roll. 255 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: No, it was chips. I don't think it was because 256 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: you thought he's doubling up as an uber rather well. 257 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 2: He fat tony. Back then it might have been quite 258 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 2: an order. 259 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: A big order. He was a good tippo too. 260 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 2: Well. I didn't notice when I saw him in court 261 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 2: that he's slimmed down. And back then when he fled 262 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 2: in two thousand and six, he was carrying a little 263 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 2: bit he was. And you know he's headed off to 264 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 2: Bonnie Dune and his girlfriend followed him there, and I 265 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 2: think they got pregnant while she was there, and was 266 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 2: all under the radar secret no one could find him. 267 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 2: A big man hunt going on. And then he heads 268 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 2: off over the nuther. 269 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: Ball magic story. As you said earlier, he buys a 270 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: yacht or gets his mate, a funny little man, a 271 00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: friend of his, to buy a yacht in Sydney. I 272 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: think it was up. It wasn't, And they demastered it 273 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: and they put it on the great big trailer and 274 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: they tow it across another ball with a great big 275 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 1: truck or whatever, and they get it to from Mantle 276 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 1: and they put it on the slips or whatever work 277 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 1: on it. They build a secret compartment in the cabin 278 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: so that just enough for one thick set man to 279 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:25,360 Speaker 1: sneak into. 280 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 2: Yes, with the toilet. 281 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 1: Yes, pretty pretty tricky. And he's got a Greek crew 282 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: from Greece that he imputed experts seamen, no Australian connections, 283 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: good idea, and he wants to give them a good time, 284 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: so he sends them all to a massage parlor the 285 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: night before they leave from Mantle. 286 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 2: Is that why they had a copy of Berry White? 287 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: They had a copy of only one ceed allegedly. I 288 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: hope that's true because it's been said many times. So anyway, 289 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:03,360 Speaker 1: the great crew they sailed north to Geralton to basically 290 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 1: a port where nothing but big you know, iron all 291 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: ships go out, and Tony drives up in the car 292 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: with the family. You know that trip across the Null 293 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: Bay that he took himself. He was in tell me 294 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 1: if I'm wrong here. I think a station wagon. It's 295 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: a family on tour like Griswold's on. 296 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 2: To su Yeah, the family truck stuff. 297 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 1: Mum and dad in the front driving old couple and 298 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: in the back is Tony. And they pretended he was 299 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 1: a deaf mute. 300 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 2: Yes they did. 301 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: No where's isn't it perfect? Where's the deaf mute? And 302 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 1: that was his cover when he went across a nullboy. 303 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: He couldn't speak or do anything much, and they treated him, 304 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: you know, as if he was needed to be helped 305 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 1: at all times, and that sort of would alleviate any 306 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 1: suspicion of him. And they kept this up, this charade 307 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 1: all the way to Geralton, and then he pops in 308 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: the secret compartment and they seal it up and they 309 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: go to sea, and of course he's locked in the 310 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: secret compartment for three days I think, to get well out. 311 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: And he was very, very sick. Yes, I think he 312 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 1: earned his freedom to do that. To be locked in 313 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: a tiny compartment on a yacht that's pitching around, I 314 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: think it'd be like being in a coffin. And he 315 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: apparently he was sick all the way across. 316 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 2: That's maybe why he's twenty kilos lighter now will it'll 317 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 2: be a good start. Well do you know that? You 318 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 2: know my name is Tony as well over to some people. Yes, 319 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 2: And when I walk into court the other day and 320 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 2: he's thin and I've got fat in the last twenty years. 321 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: Oh, you've swapped. 322 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, now I'm fat Tony. 323 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: You're fat Tony. Yeah. Do you know the real story 324 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: Harry got that nickname? 325 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 2: Oh, probably a journo. 326 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: It was a pair of journeys who had a photograph 327 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: of his seized Verrari car with had whatever number of 328 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 1: plates it had. I'm not sure it was the are 329 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: you there number plates, but anyway, whatever number plates it 330 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: had had to be pixelated out. But what this pair did, 331 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: and I was one of them, was get a fellow 332 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: with a computer to mock up number plates on the car, 333 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: and we put fat Tony plates on the Marari and 334 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 1: it took hold. We thought it was sort of a 335 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: reasonably corny, funny homage to fat Tony in the Simpsons. Anyway, 336 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: took hold, and everybody assumed that he'd always been called 337 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: fat Tony. But that's where it started. 338 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 2: He's had so many names, big Wig. 339 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: Big Wig, so you do your bit for big Wig. 340 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 2: I do like a bit of big Wig. 341 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 1: I think it's one of the reasons people sort of 342 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: smile about Tony Mockbell. It's the whole big thing. 343 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 2: Do you think that he's got a sort of nature 344 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 2: that people don't think he's you know, he's been affable, 345 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 2: he's a character. 346 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: He's affable and amiable, like good salesmen are. Doesn't mean 347 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: they wouldn't run over you if they had to. I 348 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 1: think that's the point I'm making it. In the end, 349 00:20:57,920 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: I've been. 350 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,679 Speaker 2: Out side the Supreme Court and few people that have 351 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 2: been released, and it's I think it's the first time 352 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:05,479 Speaker 2: I've heard cheering. 353 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. He's become a bit stunned, a folkloreic figure, 354 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: yeah yeah. 355 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:14,360 Speaker 2: And he was smiling. 356 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. 357 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 2: And he he arrived in a bear Cat, which is 358 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 2: a big armored sort of big tank of a vehicle 359 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 2: and you know the police used for the most high 360 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 2: security what's the s ESG. You know that it's a 361 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 2: big tank of a thing with big fat tires. He 362 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 2: rolls up in that and he leaves in a AMG 363 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 2: Mercedes Benz probably worth over one hundred and eighty thousand dollars. 364 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 2: It was quite something. 365 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: Oh, that's very good. Matt Black, Matt Black, Matt Black, 366 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: Mate Black's the color of gangster it is. And any 367 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 1: idea who his lady friend is and where he found 368 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: her while he was in jail for ten years. Were 369 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: they pen friends? 370 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 2: Well, there either being pen friends or they have a 371 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 2: mutual friend Oh, I see, I don't know a lot 372 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 2: about her. 373 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: Do you think she might be Lebanese? 374 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 2: No, she might be part Lebanese. I think she might 375 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 2: be Italian. 376 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: Oh, I say, okay, she's got a touch of the 377 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 1: nanamuscuri with the heavy glasses. 378 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 2: What I am told is that it is a long 379 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 2: term friendship, friendship and relationship, and that I think that 380 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 2: it sort of she was there with him or not 381 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 2: with him, but in the court during these long determination 382 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,199 Speaker 2: hearings that went on last year. Yeah, so I think 383 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 2: it's committed relationship. They're truly together, and you know, it's 384 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 2: not some sort of lady come lately's. I think it's 385 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 2: more than that. 386 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: One hesitates to make judgments about anything to do with 387 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 1: these sort of matters. But she does not struck you 388 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 1: as the twenty five year old dripper from the nightclub 389 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: that he once would have run around with. Not at all. 390 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: She's very different, isn't she would appear. 391 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 2: I don't know much about who she is or where 392 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 2: she's from, but I have heard a little bit, and 393 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 2: I think it's you know, it's been a reasonably heavy 394 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 2: relationship in terms of I don't think you can do 395 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 2: much while you're in jail. You might be able to 396 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 2: have some form of contact, but not much. 397 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: I could write some lovely letters, write. 398 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 2: Letters visits, but it seems to be the real deal. 399 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 2: That's not trying to say. 400 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 1: Could they have conjugal visits? 401 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:27,640 Speaker 2: Good question? 402 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: Now? 403 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 2: Up until recently, I don't think there has been. But 404 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 2: up until recently, I didn't think you could have conjugal 405 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 2: visits in maximum security prisons. But someone has been telling 406 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 2: me that it is possible if you meet some requirements. 407 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 2: But I will check it out. 408 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: What would they? 409 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 2: But you are not convicted of sex offenses? Oh yeah, 410 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 2: and you do not have a history of family violence, 411 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 2: and you are in a relationship with someone for over 412 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 2: a year. Maybe that's some of the I'll get back 413 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 2: to you. 414 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: That is very interesting. Now for those who aren't Latin scholars, 415 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: I know that you are, But for some of our listeners, 416 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 1: how would you describe a conjugal visit. 417 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 2: It's the sort of thing that you play Berry White. 418 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: Too, all right, full body contact. He's the thing Anny 419 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 1: Tony Mockbell we're talking about. He goes to his mother's grave, 420 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: which is of course you would naturally he've been in 421 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: jail Friday years and he's praying there. Well good on him. 422 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,199 Speaker 1: And he turns up at the Maronite Catholic church in 423 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,360 Speaker 1: Thornbury just a couple of weeks ago, and I think 424 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: much to the interest of the congregation and a few 425 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: Rubbern Eckerside suggest and a few journals, and there he 426 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: is doing the full monty at church and probably put 427 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: an amount of money in the collection plate, I imagine. But 428 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: it's an interesting scenario, or an interesting dilemma for church, 429 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: isn't it That here's somebody who, even on the best slant, 430 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: is a serious international drug trafficker and hire of other 431 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: criminals to do dirty work, etc. Etc. Etc. In a sense, 432 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 1: his money is tainted by any value judgment, money is tainted, 433 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: and yet he is welcomed into the church. That church, 434 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: like all others, has actual policy about never doing anything 435 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 1: to children or have children harmed or traumatized, etc. As 436 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: you'd expect. They've got a published version of that. You 437 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:39,199 Speaker 1: can look it up. But I'm suggesting, and you're doubting it, 438 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: but I'm suggesting that he was well involved in the 439 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: shooting of Michael Marshall, a man who, as I said earlier, 440 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: was holding onto the hand of a five year old 441 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 1: child who saw his father shot I think four times 442 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: in the head, three times and then one more, most awful, 443 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: shocking crime. That must have had a terrible effect on 444 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: that child growing up. That boy would now be twenty seven. 445 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: We don't know what damage it's done to him, but 446 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: it surely must have. You know. I know we joke 447 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: a lot about Tony Rockbell and a lot of crime, 448 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: but there's nothing funny about that alone when it comes 449 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,239 Speaker 1: down to it. When he was in church, you know, 450 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: doing all that nice stuff, did he think about that 451 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: little kid? 452 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 2: But you're making the assumption that he's got something to 453 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 2: do with it? 454 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: I am indeed, I'll stick with that. 455 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 2: And you know we've got. 456 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: You're playing the Dermitt dancard that there's no proof. 457 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 2: There is someone convicted from this. There's the hit men. Yep, 458 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 2: there were two of them. There was a driver and 459 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 2: a shooter. 460 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 1: The one's paid by Tony rock Bell or in this 461 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: case not bait he gi zump them. 462 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 2: But why do he keep saying that? 463 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: Why do I because he was wanting this done because 464 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: he was friendly with william one of the avenged. 465 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 2: Well, we know that Carl Williams is the one who's 466 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 2: ordered it. That's been established, it's convicted. The charges were 467 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 2: withdrawn against Tony Mockbell, and some people say that that 468 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 2: charge was laid against Tony Mockbell to get him back 469 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 2: from Greece, to make it stronger for the extradition. Now, 470 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 2: back then, when he's on trial in two thousand and six. 471 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: He knew it was coming because he'd been tipped off 472 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: that you better get out or you better do something 473 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: because these murder charges are coming. 474 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,679 Speaker 2: This is when he's on trial for six in March, learns, 475 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 2: maybe by Nicolagobo, probably by Nicolao. 476 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:39,959 Speaker 1: There's a murder charge coming, that the murder charges are 477 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 1: coming ahead of him. 478 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 2: And she would learn that from her. 479 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 1: From very good police sawce so knew one of the 480 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: many police sources who knew her. Well, that's right, she 481 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: was generous. 482 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 2: So he hears about that, and he thinks he was 483 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 2: going to go down on the cocaine trial he was 484 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 2: on found enough of this and he probably already had 485 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 2: it in the back of his mind. I think the 486 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 2: planning must have been in with the boat and everything, 487 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 2: or it was a possibility to do it. That might 488 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 2: have been, because that would have taken a bit of doing. 489 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 2: But he was in Bonnie doing for months. He was 490 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 2: there a long time and then he goes on his 491 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 2: track does he comes back via a golfstream jet. 492 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: He was joined while he was there, of course by 493 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: his lady loves. He was of the time he had 494 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,360 Speaker 1: a baby and the baby. You know, he's been quite 495 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: a generous partner in life to several people. When one 496 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: of them was Danneel Maguire, who I think was not 497 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: a step daughter really, but her mother was the partner 498 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: of somebody who met once Rodney. 499 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 2: Collins, Rodney Collins, and he give us. 500 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: Some background on Rodney Collins. 501 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 2: Rodney Collins was a notorious hit man. He was the 502 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 2: baddest of the bad. He often used as a method 503 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 2: slitting throats, but he also would use guns and shoot 504 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 2: people in the back of the head. He would become 505 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 2: a person of interest and charged over the hit on 506 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 2: the Hodson couple, Terry and Christine Hodson, who were informers, 507 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 2: but that trial would never go ahead. Collins would take 508 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 2: his secrets to the grave. In twenty seventeen, he died 509 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 2: in prison. A very dangerous man. 510 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 1: Very dangerous man and scary bloke. Yes, and would kid 511 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: you for fun. Yes. Once killed an irishman because he 512 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: didn't like his jokes. He shot you're joking, that's true. 513 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: I know that a party a party. Oh, that did happen. 514 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: It did happen. It did. He shot the bloke he said. 515 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 2: He shot him in the leg. 516 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: Shut up. 517 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 2: I thought that. I thought you were joking. 518 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: No, he did. He shot an Irish bloke. It was 519 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: and I think the bluck died. Didn't he anyway shot him? 520 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 2: I think he just shot him in the leg. 521 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: Very bad, very bad man. Cut people's throats just for 522 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: being witnesses. They weren't even the people that he was 523 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: there to kill. 524 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 2: Yes, so that's another person. 525 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: That So that goes to the sort of people, the crew. 526 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 2: The kind of so shits you make during a gangland war. 527 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 2: And you are right, you do meet some ruthless people 528 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 2: in that business. There's no doubt about that. 529 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: Now. 530 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 2: When I used to go and visit a Miss Madden, 531 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 2: I think it. 532 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: Was this is a teenage confession. What is this? Who's 533 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: miss Madden? 534 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 2: Daniel Maguire's mother, Joan? 535 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,719 Speaker 1: Her first name was, yes, Joan Madden. 536 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 2: I think. So she used to live out in Foots Gray. 537 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 2: What did she I like to visit Foots Gray because 538 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 2: I barrock for Foots Grad. Yes, so I'd go out 539 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 2: there because someone told me she lived out there. And 540 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 2: she used to tell me that Tony was a better 541 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 2: father to Daniel's already her first child, so it was 542 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 2: his stepchild than the real father, whoever that was, could be. 543 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 2: So she defended him and they were on the run. 544 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 2: That's what i'd go out visit. 545 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: I wanted to know where they were. 546 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:55,479 Speaker 2: She didn't tell me. 547 00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: No, I was shocked. That's right, you'd be shocked. But 548 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: you could go to the football while you were there 549 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: and put the whole put the whole thing on expenses, 550 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: that's right. So you probably had to take her to 551 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: the football. 552 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 2: I don't know if she was a Doggies fan, but 553 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 2: possibly she ended up there was a media scrum one 554 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 2: day out there, so I lost my sort of you know, 555 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 2: my exclusivity to this particular person. And lo and behold 556 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 2: she had complained about me to Colins. 557 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: No, that's not good. No. And what happened then, Well, 558 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: I didn't really know who was Well did you find out? 559 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 2: I was just told he was a bit of a psycho. 560 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 2: That's just just a bit of a bad. 561 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 1: She complained, What this bloke's bothering me? 562 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 2: I was a botherer, right? 563 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: And where was Where was Colins? At this stage? 564 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 2: He was in a I think one of those old 565 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 2: beat up magnas might have been my own, sitting outside 566 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 2: the house. And he I did me set eyes on me? 567 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 2: He said, he looked like skeletor to me. You could 568 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 2: I immediately sensed that he was dangerous. Yes, And he 569 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 2: said meet me tonight and I'll give you a picture 570 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 2: of Mockbell and Danny l and the baby over and 571 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 2: Greece and all that sort of thing. 572 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 1: Did you believe him? 573 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 2: I was quite gullible. The chase of a good story, 574 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 2: you will almost do anything. 575 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: Did you want to meet you? I think I think 576 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: you might have mentioned this to me once, but I 577 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: think it was just north of the city. 578 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 2: Was just north of the city he wondered. I picked 579 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 2: a public place because I thought, well, you know, if 580 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 2: things go bad, you know, maybe I'm in a pub 581 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 2: or something like a bears bad. So what's that suburb 582 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:43,959 Speaker 2: just past Collingwood. 583 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: Well it's Clifton Hill. 584 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 2: That's where I went, Clifton Hill, and edien't turned up. 585 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 2: And then I think I called him or he called me, 586 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 2: and he said meet me somewhere else. And then I 587 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 2: ended up in a car park in the drizzly rain, 588 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 2: and my only protection was a a photographer who didn't 589 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 2: want to get out of the car. No, so I 590 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 2: went and spoke to him, to Rodney Collins, who had 591 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 2: many aliases. 592 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: Yes, duke, and he was a lot. 593 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 2: More fearsome than some of the big guys that are 594 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 2: getting around because he was wearing this big jacket odds on, 595 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 2: he was tooled up. He would have had a gun. 596 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 2: He became a little bit threatening. He wanted me to 597 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,959 Speaker 2: give him some money. Naturally he didn't have a photo. 598 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: No, he work you over for but I stood my ground. 599 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 2: I said, no, no photo. 600 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: I'm a doggie supporter. 601 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 2: I had no money on me, And how do you 602 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 2: go with that? I thought, you just wanted to give 603 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 2: me a photo for the benefit of the community. 604 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: And how do you go with that? 605 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 2: He backed off. 606 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: Well, that's good because you know he used to cut 607 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 1: throats for fun. 608 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 2: You were kind of having fun that he could have 609 00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 2: cut my throat. 610 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: No, I'm not at all. But he had bad manners, 611 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: bad hygiene. He used another guy's toothbrush in jail and 612 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,439 Speaker 1: they nearly killed him. The other people didn't appreciate it, 613 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: really because I think in jail where he couldn't get guns, 614 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: he was outgunned. 615 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 2: Then, well, I have heard some prison fine conversations of his. 616 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 2: He had a girlfriend. Did he lived out Dan diong 617 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,320 Speaker 2: Way Right, he's worked for the government. 618 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,399 Speaker 1: So this is not Daniel's mum. 619 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 2: No, this is not Danielle's mum. Is another woman. And 620 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 2: they talked a lot about getting a reward for information 621 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 2: from Rodney, did they? Rodney was interested in her. 622 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 1: He would re mock belt Ree Hodson's Oh, I see 623 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: how they could possibly work that out somehow that she 624 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 1: could claim, well. 625 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 2: If he got the money for the potential that he 626 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 2: could give them information on that that might have been 627 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 2: worthwhile in his eyes, because I think he was doing 628 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 2: a big stint over a double murder, wasn't he he was? 629 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: I don't see how he could tell the truth about 630 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,319 Speaker 1: any of it without implicating himself. But anyway, he would 631 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: be tempted to try because he's you know, a million 632 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 1: bucks are sere? That's right, Yet another example of rewards 633 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: attract people, but they don't actually get paid off. 634 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 2: But back to Tony mock Bell, Yes, what happens now? 635 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: What happens now? Well, we'll find out who Nanimous Scury is. 636 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,839 Speaker 1: We'll get sick of seeing him go to church, and 637 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 1: he'll probably get sick of it. 638 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 2: Why isn't he allowed to go to church? 639 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 1: He's allowed, of course he's allowed. He should go to 640 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: church and repent. 641 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 2: But do you think he should have got But. 642 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: I don't for this reason. This reason is the case 643 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,280 Speaker 1: against him is watertight on certain things that had nothing 644 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:49,800 Speaker 1: to do with Goba. 645 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 2: Well on one thing, well. 646 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,240 Speaker 1: That's enough, just one gun of the force. 647 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 2: One goat one of the four that he was imprisoned on. 648 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: Well, these are serious charges, yeah, no doubt I agree 649 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: with that. The one that was where the so called musician. 650 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,359 Speaker 2: So I'll set down what he's in there on you'll 651 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 2: sit down. There was a trial in two thousand and 652 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 2: six over cocaine importation. He went down on that even 653 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 2: though he'd fled, so he begins serving that. When he 654 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 2: gets back in two thousand and eight, got nine years. 655 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: With a twelve maximum. 656 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 2: I think they called that one platonium or something similar. 657 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 2: Then when he got back he had all these charges. 658 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,439 Speaker 2: I think there was like eight of them or something, 659 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 2: big operations. I think one was called spake and he 660 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 2: did a big plea deal. One was called matchless. It 661 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 2: was orbital, quills, magnum. They're the three that he said, 662 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,760 Speaker 2: all right, I am going to plead. 663 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 1: Up to these. Okay, let's get to the chase. Which 664 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: ones were tainted by Gobbo? 665 00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 2: Those three, Well, what's being suggested is that quills and 666 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 2: orbital are tainted, and magnum may not be. 667 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 1: Well. I think there's certainly one that's got nothing to 668 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 1: do with her, because it was the guy that got 669 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:12,280 Speaker 1: a musician. 670 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 2: So it's he's international offending. He's offending while in Greece 671 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 2: that they say is not tainted. But if you were 672 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,280 Speaker 2: Mockbell's lawyer, you would be saying it's all tainted. 673 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: You would of because you're getting paid to say that, 674 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 1: so you would say it. 675 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:29,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, but you might have to have a reason. 676 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, of course there's always a reason. 677 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 2: Was his extradition tainted? 678 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 1: It's a very good question, and a jamboree of lawyers 679 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: and others will will be spend a lot of time 680 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 1: and money sorting through it. 681 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 2: It's not that hard. 682 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 1: It's not that hard, right, What will be the result? 683 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 2: Well, she charged him, Nicolagoo charged him for eighteen hundred 684 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 2: dollars of legal advice on his extradition. She was one 685 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 2: of the first people he called when he was captured 686 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 2: in Greece. Can you come over, Nick, I need you 687 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,480 Speaker 2: hear you know, sorry, I left all that sort of stuff. 688 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 2: And they talk about his extradition and his strategy and 689 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. It's few phone calls she 690 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,319 Speaker 2: charged him for it, gave him some advice, and it's 691 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 2: be telling everything to place. That's a problem. 692 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 1: That's a problem with the expedition. Okay. So the bottom 693 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: line is this story, the story of Tony Mockbell, is 694 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 1: far from over. Yep. The public interest in him will 695 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:36,399 Speaker 1: probably wane a little, but it's a long way from over. 696 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:38,879 Speaker 2: And stay tuned, stay tuned. 697 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald 698 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: Sun production for True Crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. 699 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 1: For my columns, features and more, go to Heroldsun dot 700 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 1: com dot au, forward slash Andrew Rule one word. For 701 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 1: advertising inquiry, please go to news Podcasts sold at news 702 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:08,240 Speaker 1: dot com dot au. That is all one word news 703 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: podcasts sold And if you want further information about this episode, 704 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 1: links are in the description.