1 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:06,439 Speaker 1: Before we begin. This podcast contains graphic descriptions of violence. 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: This is a production by The Australian and our subscribers. 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: Here episodes first and get full access to photos, video, 4 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: news stories and features plus all Australia's best journalism twenty 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: four to seven. Join us at Gangstersghost dot com. 6 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 2: Dot a U. Stuart John Reagan. He was the maniac 7 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 2: gangster shotgun Johnny Nano, the magician gunned down at the 8 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 2: age of just twenty nine after terrorizing the East Coast 9 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 2: of Australia throughout the nineteen sixties and seventies. It was 10 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 2: said he killed up to twelve people, including an innocent toddler, 11 00:00:53,680 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 2: and vanished their bodies At the height of his notoriety, evil, 12 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:06,399 Speaker 2: his violence, his hair triggered temper. His reputation as a 13 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 2: vendor of death was distilled into a single word, Reagan. 14 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 2: He terrified crooks and coppers alike. He was the monster 15 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 2: with movie star good looks. Women fawned over him, men 16 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 2: tried to imitate the teetotaling tough guy. What set him 17 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 2: apart was his hair trigger temper from zero to lethal 18 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:42,119 Speaker 2: boiling point in the blink of an eye. His few 19 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 2: friends said he had a tiger inside of him. His 20 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 2: own murder at the hands of three gunmen in a 21 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 2: grubby Sydney laneway in broad daylight remains unsold, and half 22 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 2: a century later, police deal don't want to know about it. 23 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 2: He was crazy by any measure, a standout psychopath in 24 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,959 Speaker 2: a criminal era that had its fair share of them. 25 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 2: Reagan roared through the underworld like a flame thrower before 26 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 2: eight bullets to the body and the head stopped the chaos. 27 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 2: That's where the story should have ended, but not for 28 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 2: the Reagan family. His name and reputation have soiled a 29 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 2: family tree from rural New South Wales that is filled 30 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 2: with pioneers and war heroes. For them, it's time to 31 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 2: set the record straight. Was Stuart John Reagan as bad 32 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 2: as history has portrayed him? Did he actually kill Little 33 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 2: Carlos in nineteen seventy four, and who in turn murdered 34 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 2: Reagan a few months later. After years of investigation, the 35 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:11,119 Speaker 2: family now has some answers. In this podcast, we will 36 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 2: reveal a new theory about Reagan's assassination as possible retribution 37 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 2: for Carlos's death. How Reagan tried to kill whistleblowing Madame 38 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 2: Shirley Brifman, who died in mysterious circumstances shortly afterwards. How 39 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 2: domestic violence perpetrated by Reagan's terrifying mother Claire, set him 40 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 2: on the path to crime and into history. How Reagan 41 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 2: was brutalized at a boy's home that was little more 42 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: than an academy for Australia's leading criminals, including Chow Hayes, 43 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 2: Neddie Smith, Lenny McPherson and George Freeman. We'll expose for 44 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 2: the first time Reagan's role in the Whiskeyer Go Go 45 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 2: nightclub massacre in Brisbane in nineteen seventy three, which killed 46 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 2: fifteen innocent people. And incredibly, you will hear the voice 47 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 2: of Johnny Reagan himself from old real to real tapes 48 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 2: hidden away for years in a black suitcase. Welcome to 49 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 2: the nether world of Australia's last old school gangster. I'm 50 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: journalist Matthew Condon and this is the gangster's ghost episode 51 00:04:41,680 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: one dead man talking. How on earth did I end 52 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 2: up here? A couple of days ago, I was at 53 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: home in far northern New South Wales, having a surf 54 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 2: with my kids, surrounded by beautiful beaches and lush rainforests 55 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 2: now here. I am on a farm outside the country 56 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 2: town of Young, on the southwestern slopes of New South Wales, 57 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 2: more than one thousand, one hundred kilometers away, the landscape 58 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 2: gently rolling with patchwork wheat and canola fields, surrounded by hundreds, 59 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 2: no thousands, of grubby sheep. I was only here because 60 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 2: of a local farmer, Kelly Slater. I was here because 61 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 2: Kelly contacted me and asked if I was interested in 62 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 2: finding out the truth about a gangster she had in 63 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 2: her family tree. If the Reagans were looking for any 64 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 2: redemption here, it was going to be difficult to find. 65 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 2: What if the family came on this journey and found 66 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 2: a monster even more vile and horrific than they could 67 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 2: possibly imagine. They had to be prepared for the worst. 68 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 2: But standing out there in those dusty paddocks, thinking about Reagan, 69 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 2: how he was a boy here, how he played bush 70 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 2: rangers in the local creeks and went to chapel with 71 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 2: his schoolmates, how he breathed in the very same country air. 72 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 2: I was taking in Kelly's offer of joining the family 73 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 2: in this hunt for the real Stuart John Reagan was 74 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 2: already irresistible. They had documents letters from Reagan in prison. 75 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 2: Even Reagan's de facto partner and mother to three of 76 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 2: his children, Margaret was prepared to speak for the first 77 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 2: time about her life with the gangster. But they had 78 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 2: something else, something I had to hear, quite literally to 79 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 2: believe testing one, two, three for five. As a crime writer, 80 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 2: you encounter a lot of dark and surprising things. Sometimes 81 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 2: you hear stories you wish you could unhear. But the 82 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 2: first time I sat down and listened to the old 83 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 2: tapes hidden in a suitcase for decades, I was speechless. 84 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 3: That's black man, and he said, I'll buy the diamonds 85 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 3: back off you for that amount. He okay, when the 86 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 3: time period elapsed, I didn't want to sell under the 87 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 3: Norman Carter and he's how amagant. 88 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 2: It's difficult to describe the sensation of hearing for the 89 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 2: first time the actual voice of a notorious killer he'd 90 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 2: only read about in books and ancient newspaper clippings. It 91 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 2: felt like I was sitting in the same room as 92 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 2: a ghost. This ghost, however, may have murdered a dozen 93 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 2: people in cold blood during the mid nineteen sixties until 94 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 2: his own death in nineteen seventy four. Police were also 95 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 2: convinced he murdered an innocent toddler. The child's body has 96 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 2: never been found. So let's cut to the chase here. 97 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 2: Reagan was crazy by any measure, lethal, a dangerous, loose 98 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 2: cannon and clearly a psychopath. 99 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:19,439 Speaker 4: Absolutely, we'll put him with the others, right Reagan, of course. Now, 100 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 4: Reagan was shot dead by three Shepherd guns. I'm out 101 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 4: at Mary Crew near Henson Park. 102 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 2: This is the notorious foreman New South Wales detective and 103 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 2: convicted murderer Roger Rogerson, who talked to me over the 104 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 2: fern many years ago about Johnny Reagan. 105 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 4: Lenny Macpherson said to me once, Matt, he said Roger. 106 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 4: He said, you can control a bad man, but you 107 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 4: can't control a madman. And I've never ever forgotten. 108 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 2: That Roger's dead now. But he knew a bad man 109 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 2: when he met one, and he knew Reagan was out 110 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 2: of control. 111 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 5: I just thought you interested in seeing I. 112 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 2: Still vividly remember when Kelly Slater Reagan herself a former 113 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 2: New South Wales copper, first contacted me. This is Kelly 114 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 2: reading an email she sent me. 115 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 6: Hi. 116 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 5: I'm an ex police officer and cousin of Johnny Reagan. 117 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,079 Speaker 5: We're looking at doing a podcast on him, the good, 118 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 5: the bad, the ugly, mostly the two latter, but his 119 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 5: childhood as well. We have letters and recordings that have 120 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 5: never been heard. Looking for help to make it work, 121 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 5: Kelly Slater Reagan, so. 122 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 2: I phone Kelly. We talked about how the family needed 123 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 2: the truth after all these years, and almost as an afterthought, 124 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 2: she added, then there's the tapes. The tapes. What tapes, 125 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 2: I asked, Johnny. She said, We've got secret tapes of 126 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 2: Johnny on the phone back in the day, hours of 127 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 2: them before he was murdered. Opened the door, and that's 128 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 2: how the ghost of this long dead gangster strode into 129 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 2: the room and started talking to me and now to you. 130 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 2: Reagan loved technology and at some stage decided to tape 131 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:57,439 Speaker 2: his home phone calls. He rigged up his nineteen sixties 132 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 2: rotary doll telephone with a micro fern and a real 133 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 2: to real tape deck recorder. He even took a concealed 134 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 2: miniature cassette recorder out into the streets of King's Cross 135 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 2: and Darlinghurst and captured conversations with other criminals and crooked cops. 136 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 2: You know, You've got a good defense for this. Those 137 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 2: lost tapes are filled with Reagan's wheeling and dealing, his 138 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 2: superior knowledge of the law, and his relentless quest to 139 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 2: get around it. You shouldn't have had that card interest 140 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 2: in your lying in a third flight, and the names 141 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 2: of many of the coppers he could either work with 142 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 2: or manipulate with cash under the table? Which is him? Mate? 143 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 2: What do you look at? 144 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 6: He Schnoker plaid. 145 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 2: He's probably a mate of Sturdon. He even thinks out 146 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 2: loud about putting a bullet in an enemy's head, just 147 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 2: as casually as you and I might wonder out loud 148 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 2: what we'll have for breakfast. 149 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 6: You mark my words. 150 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 7: I'm not telling you a line. 151 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 3: I'll give you a to your ideas, Tomas, you want 152 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 3: to go through with him? 153 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 6: If not, well, you know. 154 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 2: Reagan kept his tapes hidden away in a suitcase in 155 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:18,439 Speaker 2: his mother's house in Sydney. When he died, that suitcase 156 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 2: stayed inside a dark cupboard until his own mother, Claire Reagan, 157 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 2: or the Kernel, as they called her, passed away in 158 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty eight. The tapes, magnetic recording reels, each as 159 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 2: big as a bread plate, were lost for years. As 160 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 2: recently as a couple of months ago, these historical artifacts 161 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:59,079 Speaker 2: sounded like something out of an audio museum, muffled, garbled ancients. 162 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 2: Then lightning struck the Australians in house sound maestro Jasper 163 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 2: Leak had come across an artificial intelligence program that he 164 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 2: thought might just might help clean up Reagan's amateur recordings. 165 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 2: It was worth a shot. Here's Jasper. 166 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 8: I'm always on the lookout for new software, and I 167 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 8: came across this one earlier in the year DX Revive. 168 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 8: It's called by accenties. Think of it a bit like 169 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 8: a pencil sketch that's only been partially completed. Imagine if 170 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 8: you could put that drawing into a machine and it 171 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 8: would finish the picture for you and make it look 172 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 8: better than you could have done yourself. It would add 173 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 8: color and shadows and depth. This tool does that, but 174 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 8: for old bad audio. 175 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 2: Then our other audio guru, Leah Sammaglu, spent hundreds of 176 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 2: hours feeding the Reagan tapes through this AI software, fine 177 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 2: tuning for neessing and draw out voices and sounds from 178 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 2: half a century ago. 179 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 9: Really, it's like now we can hear Johnny's voice clearly. 180 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 9: We can also hear the voices of the people that 181 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 9: he's talking to, like the ones on the other end 182 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 9: of the phone. When I heard it for the first time, 183 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 9: I got chills down my spine. It's like a miracle. 184 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 2: This is Johnny captured on the raw digital file of 185 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 2: the Reagan tapes and the cops and what they're doing 186 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 2: and what they're trying to do. 187 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 10: Cops, all I will. 188 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 2: And this is the same audio after Jasper, Leah and 189 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 2: our new best friend artificial intelligence performed their wizardry. Have 190 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 2: you heard? Whisper learning heard? Must have read the cops 191 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 2: and what they're doing and what they're trying to do. Look, 192 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 2: you know yourself, nobody gallant coppers? 193 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 5: Will I will? 194 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 2: This journey has made me rethink all the trepidation and 195 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 2: debate surrounding artificial intelligence, particularly in the feel of journalism. 196 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 2: Would AI ultimately replace journalists as we'd been warned? Would 197 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 2: it take over the world. The experience with the Reagan tapes, however, 198 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 2: is an exciting, in this case jaw dropping example of 199 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 2: how AI is far from the bogey man. For the podcast, 200 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 2: it has proved to be a phenomenal tool. You will 201 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 2: soon be hearing a lot of the gangster's ghost as 202 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 2: clear as if the killer himself had pulled up a 203 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 2: chair at your kitchen table and settled down for a 204 00:16:47,520 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 2: cup of tea and a chat. The first and most 205 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 2: obvious thing for me to do was to go to 206 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 2: Young to meet Kelly. We needed to talk about her 207 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 2: dead gangster cousin, which I guess from the outset made 208 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 2: this something of a ghost story, replete as it was, 209 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 2: with real bullets and bloodshed. Time and again, as Kelly 210 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 2: and I burrowed closer to the truth about this complex man, 211 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 2: strange things happened, ridiculous coincidences and wild strokes of luck. 212 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 2: If you believed in that sort of thing, it was 213 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 2: as if the gangster's ghost was pulling some strings and 214 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 2: guiding our research. Here's Kelly, We're sitting at her kitchen 215 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 2: table at that farm in Young. 216 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 5: Honestly, I don't know exactly what we'll find. I know 217 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 5: we'll find that he probably killed people. I've accepted that fact. 218 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 5: Will we find did he kill that little boy like 219 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 5: that is? That's something I'd really like to learn, Carlos, 220 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 5: did he or did me? And I'm resigned to the 221 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 5: fact that if he did, Like but I'm hopeful that 222 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 5: they didn't the whiskey of go Go? What was his 223 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 5: involvement in that? Was he a psychopath? Like they said? 224 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 5: Is the stories that they tell about him true? 225 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 10: Why do you want to know this right now? 226 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 11: In history? 227 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,479 Speaker 5: I don't know. It's funny, isn't it, Like when you 228 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 5: you know, they talk about war veterans and all that, 229 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 5: and they they talk about it when they get older, 230 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 5: and I think history you get to a certain age 231 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 5: where you just think you want to know. But I've 232 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 5: got a curious mind, Like I've been a day drama 233 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 5: since the day I was born, and I've got a 234 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 5: really curious mind. And I'm not afraid to you know, 235 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 5: I love a chat, so I'm not afraid to ask questions. 236 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 5: And I'm yeah, just I guess never been in the 237 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 5: right time. But again, like who am I going to 238 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 5: do it with? We'd get boring, wouldn't it? Like who 239 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 5: do you share fun with? 240 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 4: So? 241 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 11: Yeah, who do you? 242 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 6: Well? 243 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 11: The most important thing will be to bounce. 244 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,439 Speaker 2: Just a quick note here. I really want you to 245 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 2: like Kelly. She's a great laugh, as it turns out, 246 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 2: a ruthless researcher, and as honest as the day is long. 247 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 2: I knew from the outset that I had well a 248 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 2: partner in crime. 249 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 5: Here, curious min and I'm not afraid. 250 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 2: That first day I met Kelly and we sat at 251 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 2: her kitchen table. We were awaiting someone else. Margaret Reagan 252 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 2: Johnny's long term some might say long suffering, de facto 253 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 2: wife and mother to three of his children. She was 254 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 2: due at the farm soon. I wondered how much she knew, 255 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 2: not just about the day Johnny Reagan was assassinated, or 256 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 2: even about his criminal career. Did she know anything about 257 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 2: who might have wanted him dead? The seemingly untouchable Stuart 258 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 2: John Reagan, who often wore a bulletproof vest and always 259 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 2: had a bodyguard by his side, was there one minute, 260 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 2: larger than life, and gone the next, a corpse bleeding 261 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 2: out on a Sydney side street. His substantial assets seemed 262 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 2: to have disappeared with him. The so called millionaire gangster 263 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 2: was a violent standover man and a pimp for sex workers, 264 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 2: but he was also a property developer. If the family 265 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 2: has the story right, he owned substantial real estate assets 266 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,200 Speaker 2: in New South Wales and Queensland. When he was murdered, 267 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,719 Speaker 2: he'd flip houses for a profit. He also had a 268 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 2: taxi in car rental business, and prior to his death 269 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,719 Speaker 2: he had developed what may have been the greatest land 270 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 2: scam in Australian history, which we'll examine in detail later 271 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 2: in this podcast. 272 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 11: What does it say that suddenly all lines of investigation, 273 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:35,120 Speaker 11: query asking questions all stopped upon his death. Well, it's 274 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 11: still an active cold case his murder. 275 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 5: Well you think so, wouldn't you, because they never closed. 276 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 5: There's no statute of limitations on murder. And here is 277 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 5: one of the biggest gangsters. So who's killed one of 278 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 5: the biggest gangsters? Wouldn't you want to know? Out of 279 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 5: curiosity and with all the talk because over the years 280 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 5: I have spoken to people, I met a guy up 281 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 5: in Nelson's Bay. So what had happened is I was 282 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 5: at the station and a guy brought me in a 283 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 5: scrap book. I can't even remember who he was, and 284 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 5: he said, I just thought you might be interested in 285 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 5: seeing this. I know he was your uncle or your cousin. 286 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 5: I went, oh, right, and I had a look, and 287 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 5: here's the scrapbook of Allah and he brought it in. 288 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 5: So I was sitting out in the meal room and 289 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 5: I was just having a look at it, and it 290 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 5: was just sitting on the table. Now, what's the chances 291 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 5: of Assistant commissioner, former member of the armed hold up squad? 292 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 5: So I've been told pops in and he sees this 293 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 5: thing there and he says, oh, please looking at this 294 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 5: and I said, oh, that's me. And he said, oh, 295 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 5: what's what's your interest in Reagan? And I said, well, 296 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 5: he's my dad's first cousin. Oh, oh, well, I can 297 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 5: put you in contact with someone who can tell you. 298 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 5: So that's when he gave me old mate's number. He said, 299 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 5: I'll meet you at the golf course in Nelson's Bay. 300 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 5: It was real cloak and dagger, and he handed me 301 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 5: a letter that I had to destroy. 302 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 11: What was the matter. 303 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 5: It was just sort of saying that, you know, he 304 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 5: knew John, that he'd arrested him, that he was he 305 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 5: went to the hospital when he'd broken Marg's jaw and 306 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 5: tried to get him, tried to get Mard to give 307 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 5: a statement, which you wouldn't give a statement. It was 308 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 5: sort of just about that, and I'm like, is there 309 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 5: anything else? Do you know who killed? No? No, no, no, 310 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 5: no no no? Do you did he kill Carr? Yeah? 311 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 5: Dead set killed that baby. He killed that baby. And 312 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 5: I'm like, oh right, okay, yep, yep, right here, and 313 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 5: then off he went. So every time someone would find 314 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 5: out that my name was Reagan and I was from 315 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 5: young and it was a police officer they and they 316 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,439 Speaker 5: were senior, they'd all way, oh, yeah, yeah, do you 317 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 5: know Johnny Reagan? Yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah. In the end, 318 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 5: sometimes I'd just say no, no, don't know. He talked 319 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 5: about right, but yeah, it was. It was always there. 320 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 5: And so I asked the senior, like a guy that 321 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 5: was a detective at Newtown at the same time, I said, 322 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 5: if you were there in seventy four, do you remember 323 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 5: Stuart John Ray? Oh yeah, yeah I do. I said, 324 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 5: well he was my cousin. He said, all right. I said, 325 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 5: do you ever know who killed him? He said, well, 326 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 5: we were told that in the area at the time 327 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 5: there was a car with four detective you've seen in it. 328 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 5: They were wearing these bowler hats or something and they 329 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 5: had police coats on. And he said there was always 330 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 5: a whisper that it was Rogerson's first hit. 331 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 10: Roger Rogerson. 332 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 2: Roger Caleb Rogerson, the notorious former New South Wales police 333 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 2: detective sergeant implicated in killing's assault, verbaling, drug dealing and 334 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 2: corruption during a tumultuous career that saw him both admired 335 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 2: and hated. At his peak from the late nineteen sixties 336 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 2: through to the early nineteen eighties, he associated with all 337 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 2: the corrupt cops and Sydney gangsters that formed Johnny Reagan's milliere. 338 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 2: Rogerson was one of the lead detectives who investigated the 339 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 2: Whisky Go Go nightclub bombing in Brisbane in nineteen seventy three, 340 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 2: which left fifteen people dead. This incredibly brought him into 341 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 2: the orbit of Reagan, but more of that later. Rogerson 342 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 2: became infamous after shooting dead drug dealer Warren Lanfranci. It 343 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 2: was suspected too, that he was involved in the attempted 344 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 2: murder of one of his own colleagues, police officer Michael Drury, 345 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 2: who had refused to take a bribe. Rogerson was dismissed 346 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 2: from the New South Wales Police Force in nineteen eighty six, 347 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 2: hit the pub circuit telling tall stories about his infamous 348 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:45,719 Speaker 2: career before being charged in twenty fourteen with the murder 349 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 2: of Sydney drug dealer Jamie Gow. Rogerson was found guilty 350 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 2: of that crime. He died in Sydney's Long Bay jail. 351 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 2: Last year. When he was convinced of the Gow murder. 352 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:07,199 Speaker 2: A Sydney newspaper ran a headline, serial killer with a badge. 353 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 5: And I said, what do you mean, his first hit? 354 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 5: And they said, since the forties and fifties, there's always 355 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 5: been a hit man in the cibur. I said, you 356 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 5: can't be generation. Yes, I said, you can't be serious. 357 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 5: He said, Oh, the rank and file would never know 358 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 5: about it. He said, but when detectives, when we'd all 359 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 5: go out and we'd all be having a beer and 360 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 5: lips would loosen a beer. He said, there was always 361 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 5: talk of that sort of stuff. 362 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 11: Told story. 363 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 2: The observation that each generation of police might have a 364 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 2: professional killer in its ranks is far from outlandish, given 365 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 2: the history of corruption in the New South Wales Force. 366 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 2: That reputation began with the arrival of the first fleet 367 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 2: in seventeen eighty eight and has never abated. Corruption flourished 368 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 2: in Sydney during the Second World War and became a 369 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 2: fine art in the hands of men like Ray Gunner 370 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 2: Kelly and Fred Froggy Cray. From the nineteen fifties to 371 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies. Roger Rogerson was part of the new 372 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 2: generation that carried that crooked Batton forward. The Wood Royal 373 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 2: Commission into the New South Wales Police Service between nineteen 374 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 2: ninety five and nineteen ninety seven examined the extent of 375 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 2: corruption in the force. It exposed countless examples of misconduct 376 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:38,959 Speaker 2: and hundreds of officers were forced to resign. Kelly Reagan 377 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 2: was treated with extreme suspicion when she applied to join 378 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 2: the police. A relative of this violent killer wanted to 379 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,360 Speaker 2: sign up to keep the peace in New South Wales. 380 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 2: I was interested in whether having Reagan in her family 381 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 2: tree actually inspired Kelly to com that crime. She had 382 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 2: been fascinated with Johnny Reagan since she was a little girl. 383 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 5: See, the family was always told that he was killed 384 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 5: by police, and it was you know, if they were, 385 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 5: they were very brazen because they used thirty eight's, So 386 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 5: it was always said that they were killed by police. Well, 387 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 5: he was killed by police. 388 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 10: I don't want to overstretched the metaphor, but in the 389 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 10: one family you've got a toorious gangster and a New 390 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 10: southlas police officer. 391 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 5: I know, don't worry. When I went for my job interview, 392 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 5: I was expecting three serving senior serving, but there was 393 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 5: five on the panel and that's mostly all they asked 394 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 5: for about. So Kelly Reagan from young Yep, what's your 395 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 5: relationship to Stuart John Reagan? Well, I never met him. 396 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 5: Here's my dad's cousin. And then it was just question 397 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 5: after question after question. 398 00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 11: Do you think you became an officer because you had 399 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 11: an arch villain in the family. 400 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 5: No. A maide of mine joined and she dared me, 401 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 5: and I thought, yea, why not? As a kid, g 402 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 5: I've always wanted to be in the mound of police 403 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 5: working in the state bank, do I? And she was 404 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 5: at the NAB in Brooklab and we're live in together, 405 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 5: and she joined and she said, yeah, it's super easy 406 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 5: get in, all right, So put performed in the next 407 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 5: thing I'm in. 408 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 12: I guess one of the things we're going to have 409 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 12: to target is why there is so little information about them? 410 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 12: Is what has blocked the flow of information about Stuart 411 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 12: John Reagan. There's books on learning person, George Freeman, Abe Saffrum, 412 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 12: you name it. There is almost nothing on Reagan. 413 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 5: And nowadays there is podcasts and this podcast on everything 414 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 5: to do with crooks and gangsters, isn't it like Melbourne? 415 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 5: If you even got arrested for a break in any 416 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 5: you've got a podcast on about you. But in Sydney 417 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 5: you've got the same players. But here you've got someone 418 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 5: who's supposed to be one of Sydney's biggest, most notorious gangsters, 419 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 5: and you've got Sicky Do squad boy. You've got the 420 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 5: same rhetoric as what's been marched out psychopath as a 421 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 5: child killed, the child killed. Ruddy Clark signed his death 422 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 5: Barrit got. 423 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 2: Only two people were ever truly on the inside when 424 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 2: it came to Reagan, Margaret and Reagan's mother, Claire Claire 425 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 2: Mary Raul Reagan outlived her son and only child by 426 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 2: fourteen years, and she's been resting in the Catholic lawn 427 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 2: section of Sydney's Rookwood Cemetery Plot two six' five three 428 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 2: Since september nineteen eighty. Eight after just a couple of 429 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 2: days In young and talking to The reagan, family it 430 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 2: soon became a parent that this story had another shadowy, 431 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 2: figure and that Was Claire, reagan a figure so malevolent 432 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 2: that to this day she is still reviled In. Young back, 433 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 2: then everyone called her The colonel by all. Accounts she was, manipulative, controlling, violent, 434 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 2: intimidating and. Cruel she horsewhipped her son and terrified his 435 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 2: teachers at the Local catholic. SCHOOL i Asked kelly about 436 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 2: the family's view Of reagan's childhood and the colonel childhood 437 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 2: and young. 438 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 5: LOOK i think it was tough with his. Mother she 439 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 5: was a. Tyrant she was. Cruel she would flog him. 440 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 5: Mercilessly the other kids were terrified of the brothers at 441 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 5: the school were terrified over when when he got hurt one, 442 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 5: day they sent the kids over to tell her because 443 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 5: they were terrified over her and the. Brothers you know 444 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 5: what the brothers could be. Like and then you, know 445 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 5: but he also had really good. Friends he enjoyed his you, 446 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 5: know he had a great. Imagination he played down on 447 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 5: the creek bed and at. School you, know they all 448 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 5: thought he was a lovely. Kid all his friends loved. 449 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 5: Him but she was. Cruel she was, Cruel she was a. 450 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 2: Monster we would soon be learning all about this. Monster 451 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 2: around the kitchen table In kelly And rod's. Farmhouse just 452 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 2: the mention of The colonel triggered fevered. 453 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 5: Debate they think that that's what happens in everyone's head. 454 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 5: Exactly they, think they think that's. Commonplace that's what. 455 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 10: Happened so the sort of control that The colonel had 456 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 10: her Son, john it's so complete that the total control 457 00:32:58,040 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 10: is terrified to. 458 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 6: Me and he would always. 459 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 11: He could never please. 460 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 5: Her oh, yeah because you just want to. Please that's 461 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 5: like when When David patterson talks about the story of 462 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 5: Taking john down to his mother because he'd been had 463 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 5: His Paul. Gibson it's punched him and he had a 464 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 5: bleeding nose and she got a dirty rag off the, 465 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 5: thing wiped it and, said now go back and before 466 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,479 Speaker 5: you came, home make sure he's bleeding worse than what you. 467 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 5: Were and this. 468 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 2: We would discover many curious and appalling things about the 469 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 2: colonel and her strange magnetic hold on her Son, stewart 470 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 2: about his childhood in young his alcoholic, father alf the 471 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 2: marriage breakup that Saw claire and Little johnny move To, 472 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 2: sydney and a Teenage reagan's descent into serious. Crime then 473 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 2: there's the enduring family rumor that When Claire reagan went 474 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 2: to live In, sydney she actually ran a few prostitutes 475 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 2: out of the house In Liverpool, Street darlinghurst to. 476 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 5: Survive the family never liked her at, all but there 477 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 5: was always this thing that she Got johnny into crime 478 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,720 Speaker 5: because when she went To, sydney that she ran girls, 479 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 5: herself and he stood over those girls that she. 480 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 2: Ran so the story in the family is That Claire, 481 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 2: reagan when she left young and left her Husband alf 482 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 2: took her young son To sydney and they ended up 483 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,919 Speaker 2: settling in Liver Pull street And. Darlinghurst and the word 484 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 2: in the family was that she ran essentially a small 485 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 2: brothel to make, it to make. 486 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,319 Speaker 5: It, yep that's WHAT i always remember is that she 487 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 5: was the one that got him into that side of the. 488 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 2: GAME i, mean if, that if that was just a wild, 489 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 2: rumor why did it persist in the family? 490 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 5: Law, oh one hundred. Percent and this is like it's 491 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 5: always been the same stories repeated over and over and over, 492 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 5: again so far as that she had she'd run the, 493 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 5: brothels and that he'd worked for her and that's how 494 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 5: he got started in. 495 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 2: It, well but first we had to meet Marg Johnny 496 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 2: reagan's de facto, wife mother to his Daughters helen And 497 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:50,360 Speaker 2: claire and to their Son John. Junior could she take 498 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 2: us inside the world of the last Of sydney's old 499 00:35:54,719 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 2: time gangsters during his heyday in the nineteen. Sixties could 500 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 2: she help us understand his murderous, temper his taste for, 501 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:11,800 Speaker 2: violence and why history would attach anywhere up to twelve 502 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 2: murders to his, name including an innocent three year old. 503 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 2: Boy and what happened on that last day When, reagan 504 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 2: unarmed and, unprotected was a gunned down, mercilessly with one 505 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 2: of the killers delivering a, final point blank headshot to 506 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:38,280 Speaker 2: make sure the boy From cherrytown was well and truly. 507 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,879 Speaker 2: DEAD i had a frank discussion With kelly about what 508 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 2: marg might or might not decide to tell. Us, cooperative 509 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 2: you think by her, nature she, might like most, people 510 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 2: hold something. Back what do you reckon. 511 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 5: During mark's formative, years she's With, john and you know 512 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 5: the skills she's being taught by him is, it's you, 513 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 5: know to say, nothing to keep your mouth, Shut just 514 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 5: keep your mouth. Shut SO i THINK i think she 515 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 5: really wants to to open and tell all that she. 516 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 5: Knows but but you, know there's still that. Thing imagine 517 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 5: If anie marg did know something and then she tells the, 518 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,400 Speaker 5: family like that's you, know the backlash to that that 519 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,359 Speaker 5: she would perceive would be. Huge SO i think she'll tell. 520 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 5: US i think she wants to tell, us BUT i 521 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 5: don't know if she'll get over the. 522 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 2: Line, well why do you think after all these decades 523 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 2: she's she has agreed to talk to us? 524 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 5: Now, WELL i think partly because well she you, know 525 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 5: she loves. Us she loves. Us The reagan side don't 526 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 5: know she. Does what does she? Know like she lived with, 527 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 5: him she had three children with. Him, yes, yeah hard hard. 528 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 2: One and you, know you get. 529 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 5: To a certain age where you just want TO i 530 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 5: just want to, talk LIKE i think at that age 531 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 5: now where she probably does want to and she sees 532 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 5: how PASSIONATE i am about. 533 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 2: It do you think she still has a residue of? 534 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,399 Speaker 5: Fear, NO i think she's as tough as old. 535 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:15,799 Speaker 2: Bootstraps now that, Afternoon Mark reagan arrived with one of her. 536 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:22,719 Speaker 2: Daughters she hadn't been too young in many. Years now 537 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,320 Speaker 2: in her, seventies you could still see the stunning good 538 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 2: looks that had Attracted Johnny reagan all those years ago 539 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 2: In Sydney's King's, cross where he worked as a bouncer 540 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 2: on the door of The Whisky Go go nightclub In williams. 541 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,239 Speaker 2: Street The slaters And reagans fired up the, barbie and 542 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 2: later we set up microphones At kelly's long kitchen, table 543 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 2: the scene of so many family, gatherings to begin our 544 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 2: interviews With. Marg the family started to drift out of the, 545 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:03,279 Speaker 2: room But marg stop. Them she wanted them around her 546 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 2: when she. Talked she didn't want to do this. Alone, NO. 547 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 6: I don't want to keep repeating myself for. Everybody it's best, 548 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 6: said everyone's. Here, okay that's. GREAT i want that you're 549 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 6: not putting me. Off you don't put me. OFF i 550 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 6: got emotional WHEN i talk about my. Father, Okay so 551 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:34,799 Speaker 6: for me to do, this you won't have to ask 552 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 6: me what. HAPPENED i know you guys know what happened 553 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 6: Because i've explained it to, Her but the lights Of 554 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:48,879 Speaker 6: daniel And jeffrey and they don't. KNOW i have a boy, Here, 555 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 6: daniel that asked me, today what DID i say with this? 556 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 6: Me i'm going to tell YOU i Told. Daniel AND 557 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 6: i appreciate That daniel was mean enough and strong enough 558 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 6: to ask me that, question because that means there's appearing 559 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 6: person there in that person that wants to know what really. Happened, 560 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 6: okay and this is Why i'm doing, This, Okay so 561 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:13,839 Speaker 6: what do you want to learn? 562 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 2: Now in the next episode Of The Gangster's, ghost we 563 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,439 Speaker 2: take you Inside reagan's earliest years in Country New South 564 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 2: wales and the rocky relationship between his mismatched. Parents that 565 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 2: marriage never had a, chance and we find another monster 566 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,279 Speaker 2: lurking in the shadows of this, Story reagan's own, mother 567 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:45,880 Speaker 2: the formidable and Feared, claire known to all as The. 568 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:50,399 Speaker 6: Colonel she belted him hat with a Stockwet she drove 569 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 6: him home. 570 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 3: Like he was a. 571 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 2: Beast so he had a tough, mother a, tough tough. 572 00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:13,880 Speaker 13: Lady The Gangster's ghost is a production Of The. Australian 573 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 13: it's written and presented by senior Writer Matthew condon and 574 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,440 Speaker 13: produced and edited by multimedia Editor leat Samaglu. Our executive 575 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:25,880 Speaker 13: producer Is, Me editorial Director Claire. Harvey special thanks To Lara, 576 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:31,440 Speaker 13: Kamenos Erica, Rutlidge Kristin, Amiot Jasper, Leik Stephanie, Coombs Sean Callanan, Laughlin, 577 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 13: Clear Ryan, Osland Amanda Wynn, Williams Christine, Kellet Tarren, Blackhurst Magdalena, 578 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 13: Zajak Gisel, Buetti Genevieve, Brammel Lauren, Bruce Sus rolf And Jachini. 579 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 13: Carlson we can only do journalism like this with the 580 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,319 Speaker 13: support OF us, subscribers who hear episodes first and get 581 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 13: full access to, photos, video news stories and, features plus 582 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,000 Speaker 13: All australia's best journalism twenty four to. Seven join us 583 00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,240 Speaker 13: At gangstersghost dot com dot. 584 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 7: Au st st sting sting st st st st st 585 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 5: St