Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never
Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, said,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Now, we've
Speaker 1: had a lot of colorful characters here on I Catch Killers,
Speaker 1: and often their stories are about redemption. Well, today's guests
Speaker 1: is a real hard ass and his story is not
Speaker 1: about redemption. He served ten years in prison and was
Speaker 1: the target of a savage car by meaning Greece. How
Speaker 1: he's still alive is a miracle in itself. Now he
Speaker 1: lives by a moral code that most people wouldn't understand,
Speaker 1: but it served him well in the world that he inhabited.
Speaker 1: He's a fascinating character who I was certainly aware of
Speaker 1: when I was in the Cops speaking to him before
Speaker 1: he came on the podcast and I mentioned redemption. He
Speaker 1: pointed out to me in a very direct manner, this
Speaker 1: is not a fucking story of redemption. That's a story
Speaker 1: about who I am. He made his point clear and
Speaker 1: gained my respect in a way some people might not understand,
Speaker 1: but after you hear today's episode, you might appreciate where
Speaker 1: I'm coming from. He certainly couldn't be accused of being
Speaker 1: a hypocrite. Today's guest, J mal Kuhn is the author
Speaker 1: of The Consultant. That's his autobiography about a life that
Speaker 1: he lived on his terms. This is going to be
Speaker 1: a real good one. J mal Kuhn, Welcome to I
Speaker 1: Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Well, it's good to sit down and have a chat
Speaker 1: with you. I knew about you when I was doing
Speaker 1: what I was doing in the Cops, and I got
Speaker 1: to say, ten years ago, I didn't think you and
Speaker 1: I would be seeing a room and recording a conversation.
Speaker 2: Changed.
Speaker 1: It has has changed, But it is good to see you.
Speaker 1: And I've read your book, and I've got to say,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of books I read before people come
Speaker 1: on that you book The Consultant, and I found it
Speaker 1: really fascinating.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: The life that you've lived, it's been a colorful life.
Speaker 2: It's been good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're still here in one piece, one piece.
Speaker 1: What do you put that down to duck and weave? Yeah, good,
Speaker 1: good advice?
Speaker 2: Your environment?
Speaker 1: Do you reckon it was in your DNA upbringing or
Speaker 1: whatever what steered you to the life that you've lived.
Speaker 1: Looking back, what was it about you? Was it in
Speaker 1: your personality or was it just circumstances.
Speaker 2: I think it's just my need for more. I just
Speaker 2: wanted more. I'm prepared to do whatever it takes to
Speaker 2: get more. Up to a degree, we have a moral compass,
Speaker 2: you know, I'd probably take a bit more recent the
Speaker 2: average and prepared to commit a bit more of myself,
Speaker 2: maybe sacrifice a bit, but yeah, I wanted more.
Speaker 1: So a risk taker, and you put the effort in that.
Speaker 1: It certainly came across in your book because there's, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a crime side, but there's a business side. And
Speaker 1: you seem to be driven in every aspect of your life.
Speaker 1: And they're also family training. You're just a driven type
Speaker 1: of guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, you know, we grew up in an environment
Speaker 2: where we weren't lazy, and we did whatever we need
Speaker 2: to do to get ahead. You know, we thought for
Speaker 2: what we had and then we thought to keep it.
Speaker 2: That wasn't just me, that was the community. And if
Speaker 2: you didn't apply that attitude, you got left behind and
Speaker 2: probably became a victim. So, I mean, I'm not your negro.
Speaker 2: When we were growing up, every almost like everyone had
Speaker 2: that little bit of an edge, you know, outsmart the
Speaker 2: next person, get a little bit more, trick him into
Speaker 2: given over his fucking swap cards started shout to Marbles
Speaker 2: to the left and go to the right.
Speaker 1: Well, we're going to We're going to find out a
Speaker 1: lot about your life. And I'm interested in the type
Speaker 1: of person you are, and I think our listeners are
Speaker 1: going to find it fascinating. Yeah, the world that you
Speaker 1: played in was a pretty heavy world. And I just
Speaker 1: want to read next tracked out from your book, and
Speaker 1: this was twenty nineteen where you're a victim of a
Speaker 1: car bombing. Yeah, I got to say, you're the first
Speaker 1: person we've had on I catch killers that survived the
Speaker 1: car bombing, So congrats there, thank you. And I had
Speaker 1: a look at the pictures of the car and we'll
Speaker 1: certainly put them up. And they were going for you.
Speaker 1: It wasn't just a warning warning sign.
Speaker 2: They went around.
Speaker 1: Okay, this is an ext track from your book, and
Speaker 1: I just want people to digest what I'm saying here
Speaker 1: and then we'll delve into Jay's life a little bit more.
Speaker 1: But Jesus, oh, okay, well it's a podcast. Jay has
Speaker 1: just shown me an actual video, it must have been
Speaker 1: captured on CCTV or something of the car explaining you
Speaker 1: walked out of that. Yeah, yeah, no, it just looks
Speaker 1: like a a dead set circus trick how you walked
Speaker 1: out of that. But I might laugh about it, but
Speaker 1: it's not a laughing matter. And I just want I
Speaker 1: think this will bring to the realization what you actually
Speaker 1: went through. And this is after the bomb's gone off.
Speaker 1: This is a quote from Jay's book. When I tried
Speaker 1: to stand, I felt that it was not my usual height.
Speaker 1: Somehow I was shorter, significantly shorter. I looked down at
Speaker 1: my leg and saw I was standing not on my foot,
Speaker 1: but on my shin bone, just above the ankle. My
Speaker 1: legs were completely mangled and my feet was totally fucked.
Speaker 1: The blast ripped through my lower legs and broken both
Speaker 1: of them off where the ankles met the foot. Ouch.
Speaker 2: It didn't hurt, actually, be are Yeah, yeah, you're pumped.
Speaker 1: Yeah you said that, and yeah, and I want to
Speaker 1: delve when we will later in the podcast delve into
Speaker 1: the actual bombing. But you also after the bombs got off,
Speaker 1: your instinct was, well, I'm a target sitting here if
Speaker 1: someone's going to try and finish me off. Hence why
Speaker 1: you were trying to crawl out of the car.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no good sitting in the car mate.
Speaker 1: Well that's your survival instant kicking in, because a lot
Speaker 1: of people might have just laid there and thought, okay,
Speaker 1: this is it and except the inevitable. But do you
Speaker 1: not in your makeup?
Speaker 2: No chance?
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, let's talk about your life growing up, family,
Speaker 1: where you grew up, and who you were a young fellow.
Speaker 2: Housing commissioned reservoir. Everybody was struggled. For us. A big
Speaker 2: day out was paying footy, I'll go and across to
Speaker 2: the creek and riding a horse, which was we were
Speaker 2: consumed by normal activities. We grew up relatively normal. Now
Speaker 2: that these kids they don't get to experience too much
Speaker 2: or hiding behind the devices.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand where you're coming from there, Jay. Some
Speaker 1: of the best adventures I've had was you walk out
Speaker 1: the houses a ten year old and I'll see you
Speaker 1: when it gets dark. Get up to all sorts of shit.
Speaker 1: That was with your mates.
Speaker 2: Yeah, with us, we'd go to the drivings on our horses.
Speaker 2: It was normal and it had a big holding the
Speaker 2: gate in the fence. Excuse me, now, look because of
Speaker 2: the I grew up in a very which which area
Speaker 2: was this in Melbourne? It was? It was a It
Speaker 2: was a housing community area, so everybody struggled and there
Speaker 2: was a lot of foreigners, so you know everybody. Everybody
Speaker 2: battled on and all the kids punched on. The parents
Speaker 2: usually worked two jobs, so they weren't there to monitor
Speaker 2: the children, so the children got up to their own
Speaker 2: fucking devices. Yeah, and we all played up. Everyone played up.
Speaker 1: What's your background? Lebanese parents came over from Leven.
Speaker 2: My father came over first, and then he's a welder.
Speaker 2: That was back in the sixties when they were promoting
Speaker 2: for laborers to come to the country to help build
Speaker 2: the country, and then he nine months later he afforded
Speaker 2: the tickets for the rest of us, bought us a ticket,
Speaker 2: and we all came over on a ship, mum and
Speaker 2: five kids.
Speaker 1: When you think about it like that, it's pretty gutsy,
Speaker 1: isn't right.
Speaker 2: You can't even imagine. My mom had to catch a
Speaker 2: boat from Lebanon to Egypt, and a train from the
Speaker 2: port of Egypt to another port, and then we waited
Speaker 2: for four days for our tickets to be cleared. They
Speaker 2: weren't clear, so the ship took off without as weren't
Speaker 2: allowed on board. So then you've got a taxi for
Speaker 2: seven hours to meet the ship pass the Nile, and
Speaker 2: then we got on a small dingy boat and we
Speaker 2: boarded the ship. I was still moving. I was two
Speaker 2: years all the time, and all our world's belongings in
Speaker 2: a big crad across and off we went.
Speaker 1: I read I read that in your book when you
Speaker 1: weren't a loud on the boat, and then your mum's
Speaker 1: come up with that idea, and I thought, there's no
Speaker 1: way she could have pulled that off, But she did.
Speaker 2: She pulled there. There was no stopping her.
Speaker 1: Well, that says a lot, doesn't it.
Speaker 2: It's a different breed back then our parents, your parents,
Speaker 2: no doubt, it's just tougher that we didn't accept to
Speaker 2: know if there was a hurdle, we'd either go over
Speaker 2: it or go around it. We just didn't stop.
Speaker 1: I think comes with that resilience too, resilient. People throw
Speaker 1: their hands up now if it's hit a hurdle, but
Speaker 1: it was a more resilient world.
Speaker 2: They throw the hands up and say, did a mental
Speaker 2: health plan? What the fuck's that? Man?
Speaker 1: I'm hearing you and I'm not talking everyone. People do
Speaker 1: suffer it, but absolutely the card gets played quite often.
Speaker 1: What about brothers and sisters? And where did you fit in?
Speaker 2: I was the youngest of four boys and the second
Speaker 2: youngest child. My mother had a six child in Australia,
Speaker 2: my younger sister, and I was the one who used
Speaker 2: to get beatn up as a child by the other brothers.
Speaker 2: All the time. It's run all the errands to get
Speaker 2: the shick academy, so you know, I'll get it up.
Speaker 2: Used to fighting or getting beaten at least or running.
Speaker 1: It's funny at the time, you don't realize the benefits
Speaker 1: that's going to create for you in life.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, mate. That bills resilience, you know, the endurancy you
Speaker 2: get from other people's aggression, and how to deal with it,
Speaker 2: how to monitor a situation, how to avoid a situation,
Speaker 2: understanding your environment. I've got with three very aggressive boys.
Speaker 2: I was the smallest and the victim.
Speaker 1: That carries you like you've burned in some very violent
Speaker 1: environments inside prison, in outlaw, motorcycle gangs. That type of
Speaker 1: skill set that you would have picked up as a
Speaker 1: young fellow. How did the fuse? How know when to strike?
Speaker 1: If you've got to strike? It must have come in
Speaker 1: handy later on in light.
Speaker 2: It came and had you in jail. Jail is very volatile.
Speaker 2: It goes off at any second, and you can if
Speaker 2: you know how to read the play, you can read
Speaker 2: the play always. You can just you could just see
Speaker 2: by the movements. A couple of guys gathering in the corner,
Speaker 2: whispering hands under the shirt. You know they're hiding a shoe,
Speaker 2: just acting a bit strange looking at someone you know
Speaker 2: he's only about to cop it. You know, you pick
Speaker 2: up on these. I mean, you don't get a lot
Speaker 2: of time sometimes they're clever enough and thick enough to
Speaker 2: do it behind the close stoor.
Speaker 1: I remember reading that portion in your book, and it
Speaker 1: was very much Yeah, I understood what you're saying there.
Speaker 1: You just got to You've got to have your eyes
Speaker 1: open to what's going on. If you walk through there
Speaker 1: with ignorant bliss, you're going to get walk in on
Speaker 1: something or or something's going to happen to you.
Speaker 2: Even eating, even eating in the in the hall, if
Speaker 2: you're not sitting with your back inst the wall, a
Speaker 2: big chance you're going to get a ship in the
Speaker 2: back of your neck as someone walks past. Just what
Speaker 2: we keep walking violently happens all the time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm getting a sense of your childhood and i'd
Speaker 1: say you look back with that with fond memories as
Speaker 1: you as you left school. What were you aiming to do?
Speaker 2: You know, take over the world? Just kidding. Look, I
Speaker 2: was very fortunate because I'm not educated, and you know,
Speaker 2: through fighting martial arts and being in Hong Kong, I
Speaker 2: fell into a bit of drugs and then I made
Speaker 2: a little bit of money and I met some people
Speaker 2: throughout my life that helped me along the way. So
Speaker 2: at a very early age. I was very ambitious and
Speaker 2: I did what I could with you my capacity to
Speaker 2: grow some wealth. Then, you know, we might after a
Speaker 2: couple of years of fucking around with the triads, so
Speaker 2: I thought that was the end. That was enough for me.
Speaker 2: I felt the surveillance it was getting a bit strong,
Speaker 2: so I thought I'd tap out before you know. It
Speaker 2: didn't end well, so we moved to Perth. I love Perth.
Speaker 2: Me and my brothers collectively put our money together and
Speaker 2: bought a club. We bought in a club there of it.
Speaker 2: The entry point there was eighty five grand you buy fight.
Speaker 2: We spent fifty on it and they're you're done. In Perth,
Speaker 2: they usually shut down earlier in the week. We had.
Speaker 2: The club happened six nights a week.
Speaker 1: You had. I'm not sure if the mining boom had
Speaker 1: hit there, but you had a lot of disposable income
Speaker 1: at times during during Perth when the mines were going off.
Speaker 2: The Perth has always been relatively wealthy and they're good drinkers.
Speaker 2: So this wasn't a big club, so it wasn't hard
Speaker 2: to like two hundred and fifty people capacity.
Speaker 1: I find that interesting too. You've got that side of
Speaker 1: your life where you've crossed the line in the law,
Speaker 1: but you've also got that entrepreneur in you that business. Okay,
Speaker 1: so the clubs aren't open at this time, or we're
Speaker 1: going to open the club and that's going to bring
Speaker 1: the people in.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we killed it. We did really really well.
Speaker 2: We did things like on Monday, we introduced Monday Madness,
Speaker 2: where we'd employ seven or eight DJs from around the
Speaker 2: town and we'd give them their own cards, and anyone
Speaker 2: that they brought in we'd pay for their fifteen minute
Speaker 2: set and then paying for every person they brought in
Speaker 2: and we'd give them a drink card. The place was
Speaker 2: busy than a Saturday.
Speaker 1: That's just tapping in the people like it's Monday, there's nothing.
Speaker 2: Going on, and then a couple hundred the one that
Speaker 2: to come out and never drink.
Speaker 1: Where did you get that from?
Speaker 2: Did you?
Speaker 1: Because it's not a formal education, is it.
Speaker 2: I started bouncing just when I turned eighteen, so I
Speaker 2: was working in nightclubs from eighteen to twenty twenty one
Speaker 2: until I moved to Perth.
Speaker 1: You mentioned your martial arts. What was your martial arts
Speaker 1: journey where that I started?
Speaker 2: I started with Bruce Lee at the age of five.
Speaker 1: Yeah, as we all did you look at that and yeah.
Speaker 2: And started on take one day Tuesdays and Thursdays in
Speaker 2: colum with seafool Henry or instractor Henry. And we did
Speaker 2: that for until I was like sixteen fifteen. That I
Speaker 2: got I fell into the Lacey brothers. They were in
Speaker 2: Melbourne looking to open an academy and I was introduced
Speaker 2: to them and we started training and we trained six
Speaker 2: days a week in the park because they didn't have
Speaker 2: their own facility and they were training me to fight overseas.
Speaker 2: And that's when I was introduced to Perth. I went
Speaker 2: over there to train with them at Perth because they
Speaker 2: are from Perth. And then I trained until I was nineteen,
Speaker 2: found money at twenty and the train still trained, but
Speaker 2: not as committed I was. I was ice to train
Speaker 2: all the time.
Speaker 1: That took you over the Hong Kong with the different things, totally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, A couple of times stayed with my grandmaster. Okay
Speaker 2: an experience.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I founded in your book the soule that you're doing.
Speaker 1: I trained under some of those people myself and yeah,
Speaker 1: they're pretty pretty committed, aren't They very committed life, So
Speaker 1: that got you to working the door in clubs. You're
Speaker 1: keeping an eye on it, thinking, well, you know, working
Speaker 1: the doors pretty fun, but I don't want to be
Speaker 1: doing this for the rest of my life. Is that
Speaker 1: the type of attitude that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I could have done it forever because I loved
Speaker 2: it as I love fighting. But I found money, so
Speaker 2: I bought a club, and then you know, we managed
Speaker 2: to club ourselves and then we discovered prison.
Speaker 1: Okay, well we're going to get to get to the
Speaker 1: prison story. But how old were you when you had
Speaker 1: a club?
Speaker 2: Twenty two?
Speaker 1: Okay, getting a sense of you, twenty two, you've got
Speaker 1: a club, you're the man. You would have been enjoying yourself,
Speaker 1: but I killed it. Tell us about life sotile there
Speaker 1: because most people at that age wouldn't be able to
Speaker 1: enjoy lifestyle like that.
Speaker 2: Well there was. I had a few friends out from
Speaker 2: Melbourne as well. They always came over and stay, so
Speaker 2: we had a penhouse. We had another house at the
Speaker 2: night clubs, had two clubs.
Speaker 1: Actually bought another one which part of Perth.
Speaker 2: Rockenham and north Bridge. Okay, and life is great mate
Speaker 2: beaches during the day clubs. During the evening we all trained.
Speaker 2: We weren't really drinkers, or we didn't didn't take drugs.
Speaker 2: We just just enjoyed life, trained beach my life and ate.
Speaker 1: Well, when the drugs started coming into it, what was
Speaker 1: your You look back and there You've got to quote
Speaker 1: here about heroin that you said. I'm not the kind
Speaker 1: of person who carries around a lot of regrets, but
Speaker 1: I regret heroin. It's not even that I regret the
Speaker 1: ten years I spent in jail cells after I was pinched.
Speaker 1: I regret the damage that heroin that I moved would
Speaker 1: have done to the community. The age of twenty two,
Speaker 1: I didn't appreciate the consequences of my actions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. Actually, just before I was pinched, started
Speaker 2: dating and Chip, probably six months earlier, and I was
Speaker 2: your chick, who I didn't know at the time it
Speaker 2: was on heroin, but she was on it recreationally right
Speaker 2: towards towards the end. Actually, I discovered that she was
Speaker 2: and I did my best to remove out of that environment.
Speaker 2: Then when I was once I was incarcerated, she ran
Speaker 2: a muck and I was in love with her. So
Speaker 2: that's how I felt the consequences of it. You saw
Speaker 2: that affected me.
Speaker 1: Personally, Okay, that the first hand account. You saw the
Speaker 1: damage that it could do did.
Speaker 2: To her, to a family. To me personally, you know,
Speaker 2: I felt the pain. So then you know when you
Speaker 2: reflect back on that, I mean, I'm not a selfish person,
Speaker 2: so I look at mine my own grief and assume
Speaker 2: that other people had similar grief and the ongoing negative
Speaker 2: impact did have on the community. I didn't get it.
Speaker 2: In court, the prosecutor and the judgement, they fucking hated me.
Speaker 2: I think, what's all the fuss about.
Speaker 1: What you guys? Because your brother who went down for
Speaker 1: it too, and you you painted those major league criminals
Speaker 1: in the media. What do you reckon that was about?
Speaker 2: Ah Man? That was when the NCAA was I mean
Speaker 2: not taking any neat credit away from them, because we
Speaker 2: were significant for that era, but that was when the
Speaker 2: NCAA first was formed, and you know, they were given
Speaker 2: unlimited powers. They were pulling guys out of prison for information,
Speaker 2: to set people up, and all they had achieved up
Speaker 2: until that point. I think they were around for a
Speaker 2: couple of years. They got abe Cefron for six months
Speaker 2: tax evasion. That's all they've got. They really didn't I
Speaker 2: didn't accomplish. My I suppose it's all the early days.
Speaker 2: Then you get a couple of young Lebanese boys, penthouses, houses, clubs, nightclubs,
Speaker 2: fucking boats, Harley's. It paints a really good picture.
Speaker 1: And you know they milked it Middle East and guys.
Speaker 1: And there were some guns that recovered.
Speaker 2: There are a lot of guns too, in particular that were
Speaker 2: silence machine guns, really good weapons. So I mean, it
Speaker 2: really did paint a good picture. And look from their
Speaker 2: special perfect perception, they probably thought that they had the
Speaker 2: big guys. Unfortunately we weren't so big.
Speaker 1: In a reverse sort of why it worked in your
Speaker 1: favor when you did go inside, because you had a
Speaker 1: reputation that had some benefits on the inside because of
Speaker 1: the way you were portrayed. Absolutely, tell me about your downfall.
Speaker 1: Did you know what was coming, had you been locked up,
Speaker 1: had you been given like warning signs beforehand, like we're
Speaker 1: pushing it too hard? Or did it just hit you
Speaker 1: all at once when the cops caught you.
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, I was done with it. I was
Speaker 2: done way before I went to Perth. I actually, I'm
Speaker 2: not even joking. I did it a few times. It
Speaker 2: wasn't like now it's consistent. Every now and then some
Speaker 2: would pop up and they'd call me, do you want it?
Speaker 2: Yes or no. I'd offer it yes or no. So
Speaker 2: then I was done with that. So I had no
Speaker 2: clue that I was going to be in trouble with
Speaker 2: the law. So as I was concerned, I did it.
Speaker 2: I did not got away with it. That's the end
Speaker 2: of it. I didn't know about recordings, and you know,
Speaker 2: it's a different I thought that was used by day.
Speaker 2: You had to catch your fair and square like.
Speaker 1: Actually, so if you got got the shipment, you were done.
Speaker 1: If they didn't grab you with the drugs in you.
Speaker 2: I had once scenario, and we knew we have been
Speaker 2: followed the police. We watched them the hiding behind cars.
Speaker 2: I thought I could caught redhanders. So what I did
Speaker 2: was I said my leveos walking briskly down Logan Street.
Speaker 2: The men and the other principal met around the corner.
Speaker 2: I was on a bike and I fucked off.
Speaker 1: With it and the cops went for the.
Speaker 2: I got away, dropped it off, went home with the bed.
Speaker 2: I got a both with it, actually I did. But
Speaker 2: my point was I didn't realize the thing that he
Speaker 2: can get some allance and recordings and witnesses, and he
Speaker 2: did that because I got back a bit.
Speaker 1: I've often we're creative in that. In that way, I've
Speaker 1: often wondered people that have made their money through crime
Speaker 1: or whatever the start out, but then the more it's like,
Speaker 1: that's the analogy of a boxer. A boxer that when
Speaker 1: they've got all the luxuries of life, they're not as
Speaker 1: hungry as they were on the street. When you're in
Speaker 1: that world, did you think, am I taking two many
Speaker 1: risks now with it? Like I want to go I
Speaker 1: want to go legit. So I've got the money, I've
Speaker 1: got the fine lifestyle. Why take the risks of possibly
Speaker 1: doing ten years in jail? Did that cross your mind?
Speaker 2: Absolutely's why That's why I moved straight.
Speaker 1: I thought I got too hot point.
Speaker 2: Made a bit of money, not a lot of money,
Speaker 2: by the way, just enough to give myself a leg up.
Speaker 1: And I thought, you know, you don't believe those streets.
Speaker 1: You don't believe those street values. When the law enforcement
Speaker 1: pulled up a billon dollars worth of drugs were recovered,
Speaker 1: that type of stuff.
Speaker 2: They got I think three pounds it was one point
Speaker 2: six killers, a heairline. Okay, what was worth back then?
Speaker 2: Six and eighty?
Speaker 1: Tell us what your life was on the day that
Speaker 1: you got locked up. What were you in a relationship?
Speaker 2: I was in the relationship. I was about to get
Speaker 2: out of my forty four otion racer, had the boys
Speaker 2: waiting for me. It was a beautiful sunny day. We'll
Speaker 2: love a life trained ready that morning, had breakfast, feeling good,
Speaker 2: looking good, ready to take on another day. Amazing, this
Speaker 2: is the morning. By the afternoon, I'm living in the cell.
Speaker 2: My shoe was my pillow.
Speaker 1: How did you react to that?
Speaker 2: That was all good, not a problem.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I Look, I've spoken to a lot of people
Speaker 1: that have in and out of the jar and all that.
Speaker 1: I've got to say, you are one of the most
Speaker 1: positive people about it, but not for everyone. You said
Speaker 1: your brother was doing it tougher in prison, just like
Speaker 1: he needed his freedom. You you accept that. What was
Speaker 1: it about you that you could just is that the
Speaker 1: price I've got to pay for? No? I did.
Speaker 2: Look, I think with me through the martial arts and
Speaker 2: my training and my mindset, and you know, fearless, like
Speaker 2: stupidly fearless. You know, it was just another for me.
Speaker 2: It was not going to be another experience. I just
Speaker 2: got to get on with it. Mean you can't. You
Speaker 2: don't ever trying to fuck it feel sorry for yourself.
Speaker 2: There's mayhem all around you. Doesn't matter how big a
Speaker 2: guy is. If you can hold a shive and you're
Speaker 2: quick enough, you can't have a fucking problem. Mate. So
Speaker 2: for me, I just got on with it. I dealt
Speaker 2: every day as it arrived.
Speaker 1: Okay, But there seems to be like an acceptance that
Speaker 1: you've gone, Okay, this is my lot in life.
Speaker 2: Okay, this is me. Its ten. Let's get on with it.
Speaker 2: I mean I did obviously that wasn't by the time
Speaker 2: I was sentenced two years it explired. So we're down
Speaker 2: to eight. I still had an appeal. That's twelve months away.
Speaker 2: Down to seven, had another appeal, down to six, had
Speaker 2: another appeal down to five. On the downhill run, Let's
Speaker 2: get on with.
Speaker 1: It, okay, So you've accept that that way started off
Speaker 1: at the team.
Speaker 2: Some people to rationalize their sentences, so they get a
Speaker 2: well call it a nine new sentence. They plan and escape,
Speaker 2: so they say, okay, I need to get two years
Speaker 2: under my belt to get to a medium maximum security.
Speaker 2: Another two to get to a midium, but then I'm off.
Speaker 2: So they think they're only doing two or four years.
Speaker 2: Then when they get to that four years, yeah, they
Speaker 2: trot the towel then to get on with it. So
Speaker 2: it's just psychological.
Speaker 1: Was it easier for you to do your time? Accepting? Okay,
Speaker 1: this is where I'm at without fighting it internally.
Speaker 2: I never I just accepted it. So I mean you're
Speaker 2: still living, right, it's still having a laugh, you know,
Speaker 2: it's still really you sleep out hours eight hours a
Speaker 2: day and you work eight hours day. I'm missing eight
Speaker 2: hours a day effectively. I can guarantee you a couple
Speaker 2: of those would have been in the gym and at
Speaker 2: least one or two watching TV. So I mean it's
Speaker 2: a sacrifice. It is a sacrifice. You're missing all that
Speaker 2: affection and emotional enjoyment with other women whatever, if that's
Speaker 2: your thing, or blokes or whatever. But you know, it's
Speaker 2: not the end of the fucking world. Mate. Okay, you
Speaker 2: met a lot of interesting people in jail, you read
Speaker 2: a lot of great books, you do a lot of
Speaker 2: push ups, so you go home.
Speaker 1: Yeah okay, so you because you said that when we
Speaker 1: were chatting before the podcast, when we were talking the
Speaker 1: other day. You said that I used it to my advantage,
Speaker 1: absolutely and that, but there must have been some downtimes
Speaker 1: in there.
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of violence, but that just
Speaker 2: kept you at the adrenaline pumped. So the more violence
Speaker 2: that you experienced, you know there was a distraction as well.
Speaker 1: Did you get addicted to that in a strange sort
Speaker 1: of weight?
Speaker 2: I wasn't so much on edge because I was one
Speaker 2: of the alphas, but yeah, I supposed to a degree.
Speaker 2: I mean definitely, you don't get time to just relax.
Speaker 2: From the time that door opens to the time it shuts,
Speaker 2: you're on your toes. I just don't know where it's
Speaker 2: going to come from and who's going to have a crack,
Speaker 2: And there's plenty that are willing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but as you said, it doesn't have to be
Speaker 1: the big bloke. It can be the stranger, little dude
Speaker 1: in the in the corner that's got the ship.
Speaker 2: But I know one of the most hectic, dangerous killers
Speaker 2: in the country. It was probably sixty kilos. But they
Speaker 2: would catch your fucking head off in front of your wife,
Speaker 2: then do.
Speaker 1: Her that they make the dangerous you had. You're in
Speaker 1: there with your brother you're laid to spend time with
Speaker 1: your brother, or did they separate you.
Speaker 2: They tried to separate us a couple of times, but
Speaker 2: they didn't add well for them. They couldn't separate us,
Speaker 2: so we spent it all together. They separated it just
Speaker 2: look we bashed screws. We did it in court. We
Speaker 2: had problems with him in the prison. We've been wrong
Speaker 2: with it in prison. We weren't to be fucked around
Speaker 2: with it. Especially my brother. He's a psychopath, like he's
Speaker 2: not less, not an actual psychopath, but he's a nut job.
Speaker 1: He doesn't doesn't well, he doesn't back down when you're
Speaker 1: at your trial or you're hearing where he builded the
Speaker 1: corrective services officer.
Speaker 2: Or that was my fault. I shouldn't have told him.
Speaker 1: That's when you wanted to talk to your mum or something.
Speaker 2: So they during the case and we stopped the first time,
Speaker 2: and we're walking past my parents, and of course they're
Speaker 2: going to stop and console its see how you're okay, mom?
Speaker 2: All good? You don't need to be you go home.
Speaker 2: This fucking dog put his and I was my brother
Speaker 2: was between him and me. He put his arm around
Speaker 2: and gave me a little shove and said kept going,
Speaker 2: which obviously I didn't. But I found that humiliating and
Speaker 2: embarrassing in front of my mum. So I was gonna
Speaker 2: have a crack when we got at the back. But
Speaker 2: soon as we got at the back is all, are
Speaker 2: you okay? Guys? You need anything like you know? It's
Speaker 2: tough turtle change. So we let it go from it
Speaker 2: and I said to my brother, did you see where
Speaker 2: they cant did? He goes yes, and if you touched
Speaker 2: me again and knock him out? Obviously I didn't stay
Speaker 2: for a joke, so purposely the second time around, I've stopped.
Speaker 2: He went to put his arm past my brother. I
Speaker 2: didn't even get a touch on me. I mean he
Speaker 2: got there, but my brother was so quick he just
Speaker 2: hit him. That fucking hard mate flew over the solicitor's desk.
Speaker 2: Paper went everywhere, and there was probably be in thirty
Speaker 2: coppers there. They didn't even come in do own direction.
Speaker 2: We had to lock ourselves up, so we spent a
Speaker 2: couple minutes talking to mum ago and went out the
Speaker 2: back expecting to punch on with the screws. That didn't
Speaker 2: happen either.
Speaker 1: I would have expected that was all punch on with
Speaker 1: the Copps that were there and surprising everyone's scared.
Speaker 2: I mean, look, we weren't shy. You're looking at a
Speaker 2: sixty year old man. Now, I was twenty four back then.
Speaker 2: You know all I did was fight.
Speaker 1: Okay, So you're a complex character, an interesting character, and
Speaker 1: I do. And I mentioned in the start with your book,
Speaker 1: I was trying to sell what we do on the
Speaker 1: podcast and talk about redemption, and you checked me and said,
Speaker 1: this is not a redemption story. And I accept that
Speaker 1: this is your story and you live by your moral code.
Speaker 1: So I'm finding it interesting having a chat with you. Now.
Speaker 1: There's stuff in the preface for your book written by yeah,
Speaker 1: none other than Gregory David Roberts, the author of Shanta ramp.
Speaker 1: I got to say, I've tried to get him on
Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm going to hit you up to say
Speaker 1: a good good word for me at the end of
Speaker 1: it his book. I found it fascinating chann and the
Speaker 1: one after it. But I just like he had a
Speaker 1: real sort of zen. Yeah, could be a violent man
Speaker 1: if neither be, but also had that peace side of him,
Speaker 1: the zen side of him. How do you become a
Speaker 1: mate with him?
Speaker 2: We were both incarcerated for five years ago, both of
Speaker 2: us on the end of our sentences, and I always
Speaker 2: gravitated to people that were smarter or better than me,
Speaker 2: but I could get something out of, like some sort
Speaker 2: of stimulation. And he was the smartest bloke in the system,
Speaker 2: literally the smartest, so I always I used to annoy him,
Speaker 2: but he liked me. Fortunately, So towards the end of
Speaker 2: the sentence, they were closing pantries down. So we had
Speaker 2: like two hundred prisoners in D Division and we were
Speaker 2: the only long terms. There was like a handful of
Speaker 2: long terms and summer and you got two hundred prisoners
Speaker 2: sharing one fridge with a little freezer, and your water
Speaker 2: often got stolen. So my brother, under the cover of daylight,
Speaker 2: went and stole the screws fridge, put a luck on it,
Speaker 2: put outside my cell and his cell, so we shared
Speaker 2: that with me. Greg Ali say, you know, we stuck together.
Speaker 2: He used to follow me around tooled up because we're
Speaker 2: at war. It's just a beautiful bloke. But we jeled
Speaker 2: and when we got out, he's the only person from prison.
Speaker 2: I had some good friends in prison, but I mean
Speaker 2: I chose just to move on because they're not going
Speaker 2: to move on. I knew Greg was moving on. I
Speaker 2: was that was my journey. My journey at that ended.
Speaker 2: Now it's my new path. So we worked together. When
Speaker 2: I had opportunities that suited him, he jump on as well,
Speaker 2: and we had a few laughs and we supported each other. Well.
Speaker 1: The fact that then I read his book I think
Speaker 1: when it first came out, so years and years ago,
Speaker 1: and it really resonated with me that, Okay, you can
Speaker 1: have a violent man, but there was a philosophy behind
Speaker 1: what he was doing, and you know, we all fuck up,
Speaker 1: but you get on with life and resilience and all that.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I just found it impressive. So I can
Speaker 1: imagine and I've seen him, seen him talk, and I
Speaker 1: can imagine it would have been a good influence on
Speaker 1: you inside. Okay, well, we got sidetracked the one one
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about you, but I'm fascinated by
Speaker 1: his life as well. But in the preface for your book,
Speaker 1: he's described you in a lot of ways, and I
Speaker 1: want to just break it down because what I want
Speaker 1: to do on the podcast, we're not going to deep
Speaker 1: dive into you committed this crime, you did this, or
Speaker 1: did that? But I want to find out the type
Speaker 1: of person you are because I'm seeing you come up
Speaker 1: come on with saying, well this is me. So let's
Speaker 1: you're taking you jack with a fuck. We're getting serious now. Okay,
Speaker 1: these are a couple of things. And this was written
Speaker 1: by Greg So he describes you as charismatic, the type
Speaker 1: that a room turns to sea you. I got to say,
Speaker 1: you've got to swagger about you. Has that always been.
Speaker 2: I haven't noticed it. I know a room does pay attention, though,
Speaker 2: I mean your command attention. You mean you can do
Speaker 2: it. It's just a personality, and sometimes your personality is reflected
Speaker 2: by your physical personality. You know, some some men are
Speaker 2: big but you just don't notice. Other men are medium sized,
Speaker 2: but they have a presence about them. I guess I
Speaker 2: have a little presence.
Speaker 1: And energy that comes out. Yeah, okay, accept that charming
Speaker 1: can be. I get the sense that people like you
Speaker 1: can turn turn the charm on.
Speaker 2: Yeah I don't. I don't know anyone that doesn't like me,
Speaker 2: and if I find out, I'm going to do my
Speaker 2: best to get them to turn them. Talk about this anger, bro.
Speaker 1: Yeah okay, I like it. Well you've wrecked it. For
Speaker 1: the next one. Confident. This is why Greg describes it.
Speaker 1: You confident in the way of a man who knows
Speaker 1: how the fight will and doesn't mind doing it. I
Speaker 1: get that there is something and you would have seen
Speaker 1: it in prison. I saw it on the streets and
Speaker 1: stuff as a cop. There's a calmness that comes with
Speaker 1: someone that can look after themselves and doesn't have to
Speaker 1: have to put it out there.
Speaker 2: To lose your temper. Yeah, you need to be aggressive,
Speaker 2: get on with it.
Speaker 1: Because you were saying you were seen the blokes. I've
Speaker 1: seen him in life, but I've also seen it when
Speaker 1: I was in the cops. There's a lot of bravado there,
Speaker 1: but it's almost fear like they've pumped themselves up big.
Speaker 2: So yeah, there's a lot of that that you're to
Speaker 2: watch out for. The salent ones, quiet ones that enjoy it.
Speaker 2: But I mean there's also loud crazies. They can do
Speaker 2: the job, so let's not discount them. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I know that I reckon one of the
Speaker 1: most chilling responses to someone if they want to fight you,
Speaker 1: I love fighting. They don't know where they go from there, Okay.
Speaker 1: A diplomat preferring to compromise over confrontation. Now this steered
Speaker 1: a lot of your career, the consultancy that we'll talk about.
Speaker 1: But talk us through that. What Greg saw about you
Speaker 1: being the diplomat, Well.
Speaker 2: Look, often with situations where you're in the middle, you
Speaker 2: can go either way. You can just hurt somebody and
Speaker 2: resolve it well, you can make a little sacrifice, a
Speaker 2: bit of give and take and resolve with diplomatically. It
Speaker 2: doesn't have to come down to violence of aggression. If
Speaker 2: you can work out another way, it's always the best
Speaker 2: in my view, it's always the best option.
Speaker 1: I agree. I agree with that, but I think you've
Speaker 1: got to give if we're arguing, if I'm still going
Speaker 1: at you, if I give a little bit to you
Speaker 1: or don't embarrass you in front of someone, it's easy
Speaker 1: to back down. I use the example, and I think
Speaker 1: I've used it before on the podcast. Very basic example.
Speaker 1: As a cop early days in uniform, you go into
Speaker 1: a pub. You've been called there because someone won't leave
Speaker 1: the pub. You walk in there and you've got the
Speaker 1: authority to take the person out, but he's got all
Speaker 1: his mates there, And I've seen good cops diffuse the
Speaker 1: situation this way. By walking in there. You're carrying on
Speaker 1: like a clown in the pub, refusing the loove. You've
Speaker 1: got your mates here egging you on, and the cop
Speaker 1: just says, look, Jay, we could punch on, but you
Speaker 1: probably win, but you're going to get arrested anyway. Is
Speaker 1: it all right? If you walk out? You then look
Speaker 1: back at your mates. You've kept your reputation intact, you
Speaker 1: haven't back down, and a way of diffusing the situation.
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot that could prevent a lot
Speaker 1: of shit that goes down, like you're talking the nightclubs,
Speaker 1: the fights that if people could just adopt that approach.
Speaker 2: I didn't have that approach.
Speaker 1: What the approach did you have it?
Speaker 2: I'm doing it totally different thing in the pubs and
Speaker 2: would square off straight away, have my hands in front
Speaker 2: of me, dude, as soon as they finished straight on
Speaker 2: the chin? Mate, Yeah, we drag them out.
Speaker 1: We can't do that.
Speaker 2: We didn't give them. We didn't give them the opportunity
Speaker 2: to throw one.
Speaker 1: Did they ever get you in trouble?
Speaker 2: No, it's legal, man. We had three coppers walked through
Speaker 2: my club I was working at, had three clubs in it.
Speaker 2: Three off duty police officers walked past my brother and
Speaker 2: made some remarks or a day ago, and he came
Speaker 2: around because we had a tunnel through to me and said,
Speaker 2: these fucking coppers and they happened to walking across the street,
Speaker 2: so we attacked them, kicked the ship out of them.
Speaker 2: One was trying to call under a car to get away.
Speaker 2: My brother's dragging that boy's leg, jumped on the bottom
Speaker 2: of the car and jumped on him. Nothing happened, bro.
Speaker 2: We used to punch on. The police would block off
Speaker 2: the streets and let us go at it.
Speaker 1: This is what the eighties over in perform Melbourne.
Speaker 2: Yeah nothing you now you used to tell someone the
Speaker 2: fun out to take a photo and call the police.
Speaker 1: Well it's a different world now. You wouldn't get away
Speaker 1: of that now.
Speaker 2: But actually off the PlayStation was up the right in Buzswick. Look,
Speaker 2: I've heard about it.
Speaker 1: Nothing I've seen I've seen off Judy cops. I've seen
Speaker 1: them in the clubs and that they can be pains
Speaker 1: in the arts, not all of them, like we're just
Speaker 1: I don't want to brand it. But yeah, I understand
Speaker 1: what you're saying.
Speaker 2: There's all fun games back then, I mean, no one
Speaker 2: really got seriously hurt, you know, not really bad, just
Speaker 2: took their lumps. Yeah, you just take it on the gin.
Speaker 2: I got smashed a few times. Just take it on
Speaker 2: the gin, get up and dust up and keep going.
Speaker 2: It's like, just like, what's that happens on the foot field?
Speaker 2: Stays on the footy field?
Speaker 1: Used to It doesn't any It doesn't anymore.
Speaker 2: At fucking crowdbabies, the generation of crwdbabies. Fat good luck
Speaker 2: if we go to war.
Speaker 1: I said that the introduction, we're going to get it real,
Speaker 1: and we're getting it real from you. So I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: I want to hear. This is getting an insight in
Speaker 1: your thinking. I like it. Now you've been described as
Speaker 1: a leader, a man that hard men will follow in
Speaker 1: the battle and more impressively into peace. So play on that.
Speaker 1: So leader that Okay, we'll back you up. But also no,
Speaker 1: we're not going to fight here. Is that how you
Speaker 1: see your lived your life?
Speaker 2: But when I lead, I led from the front of
Speaker 2: the back. So I wouldn't ask anyone to do anything
Speaker 2: that I won't personally do. In fact, I probably do
Speaker 2: it myself, and all my people knew that. So I
Speaker 2: would never compromise anyone else's safety. I always was careful
Speaker 2: to look after people, not to get it in trouble.
Speaker 2: You know, that was respected and appreciated. So I'm a
Speaker 2: sensible leader, Okay.
Speaker 1: Not led by ego. Feeding your own Again.
Speaker 2: Even in the boy club, I don't know, we'll get
Speaker 2: you in trouble.
Speaker 1: You made a point there, and I'm interested in this because, yeah,
Speaker 1: we talk management leadership, but if we talk in the
Speaker 1: world that you lived in, you wouldn't have anyone do
Speaker 1: anything that you wouldn't do yourself. I've had a lot
Speaker 1: of people over the years and without naming names, clubs
Speaker 1: or whatever, get the shits that, yeah, we're taking the
Speaker 1: risks and people are reaping the rewards. That's not the
Speaker 1: way you you operated. No, definitely authentic, And I'll just
Speaker 1: break it down what Greg said here, backing up the
Speaker 1: word authentic because he's the same man on the inside
Speaker 1: and I put in brackets here. We're talking about in
Speaker 1: jail with the same cheeky twinkle in his eye on
Speaker 1: the outside. There's some people that if I'm interpreted in
Speaker 1: that right, there's people that go inside and they're they're
Speaker 1: different to who they are outside outside. They could be
Speaker 1: the big man. They go in there and.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Well they can running back
Speaker 2: on the outside getting jail and they fucking crumble. I've
Speaker 2: seen it. But look also people succumb to the system,
Speaker 2: they become as setutionalized and they become dependent upon the system.
Speaker 2: So with my brother and I, we Maine tander independens
Speaker 2: and independence in their individuality. We wouldn't even wear their
Speaker 2: fucking clothes. Mate, it seemed like four food like, so
Speaker 2: we had our own fire pants. The screws bought him
Speaker 2: in for us. We had a couple of friendly screws.
Speaker 2: If it wasn't contraband you know, they get bringing t shirts, jeans, clothes,
Speaker 2: box things that he couldn't access, and five pans. My brother,
Speaker 2: the beauty of him made is no one can roar
Speaker 2: it better than him. So he would get a delivery
Speaker 2: every Saturday from the kitchen on the tractor, a box
Speaker 2: full of everything in the kitchen had we had. So
Speaker 2: we just cooked our own food whatever we had, whatever
Speaker 2: we need. We had tuna, past rice, oil, chips, vegetables, eggs,
Speaker 2: we had albro and we had a canteen. So we
Speaker 2: buy other stuff as well.
Speaker 1: So you're eating healthy in there.
Speaker 2: We cooked our own food, jail food shit, and we
Speaker 2: had a microabe in ourselves. We took the screws. We
Speaker 2: did everything to just run our own race. There was
Speaker 2: no gray, It's black and white. We hated them and
Speaker 2: expressed it daily, and they hated us and expressed it daily.
Speaker 2: And then we got almost routing the system and we
Speaker 2: wrote it really well and we I mean, this is
Speaker 2: for us. ChIL wasn't difficult for us because we did
Speaker 2: our own jail.
Speaker 1: So when yeah, the line between the blue and the grain,
Speaker 1: that was definitely the case for you and your brother,
Speaker 1: No question. They're doing prison a little bit differently. Interested
Speaker 1: why we're talking on that subject now Mcquarie Correctional Center
Speaker 1: in New South wal they're up in Wellington. They're trying
Speaker 1: a new style where they're breaking down it's not so
Speaker 1: much the division maximum security prison. People going in, they're
Speaker 1: getting rewards up front. You misbehave you get the rewards
Speaker 1: taken away from you're living in the dorm, twenty five
Speaker 1: floks in one dorm, more freedom, study and all that.
Speaker 1: You went in the system and that didn't break you.
Speaker 1: You just stood your ground. Do you see benefits in
Speaker 1: the system that I just relaying there.
Speaker 2: Or do you hate that?
Speaker 1: You hate it?
Speaker 2: I would hate that, Bro. I did most of my
Speaker 2: jailing Petridge, the old bluestone Petridge. I used to have
Speaker 2: a you know, the bay Maries. Yeah, the heater. That
Speaker 2: was my little heater. Weigh it up somehow. The little
Speaker 2: fan had my fridge in my ice box, a little
Speaker 2: bluestone cell. Kate. There was a fucking cage and it
Speaker 2: was jail, and you did jail, Bro. This bullshit they're
Speaker 2: hanging Daniel and Karats in front of you. Fuck all
Speaker 2: that shit. We've got nothing, we wanted nothing.
Speaker 1: Okay, I appreciate you're a hard ass, except that. Can
Speaker 1: you see the benefits the benefits for the community if
Speaker 1: they go If they go in there like you come out,
Speaker 1: you've kept your moral compass. But jail fucks people up?
Speaker 1: Can you see out there? Not talking you individually, I'm
Speaker 1: talking generally. If people come in and go out better people,
Speaker 1: there has to be a benefit. Surely you see that.
Speaker 2: Why is it making them better?
Speaker 1: Well? They can adapt to society. They're not bridging up
Speaker 1: every time they walk down the street and end up
Speaker 1: back inside.
Speaker 2: Are you talking about it? You're talking about the fucking
Speaker 2: short terms. The corporates, the pedophiles, the rapists. There the
Speaker 2: only comes to get the fucking benefits. The hard criminals
Speaker 2: don't get that ship.
Speaker 1: Well, I can say that I've seen it and they do.
Speaker 1: And these are some lifers in this. They're trying it out.
Speaker 1: That it's a new system. I went inside last year
Speaker 1: and they're trying it out. So that's what I'm asking you.
Speaker 1: I understand.
Speaker 2: I understand that, I understand twenty five. In the time
Speaker 2: you live with twenty five blokes, I'll kill one of them.
Speaker 1: Well, that's exactly what I thought would happen there. That's
Speaker 1: why Corrective Services invited me in to have a look.
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking this is going to be mayhem.
Speaker 2: Were they independent selves or no?
Speaker 1: No living I'm telling you they're holding hands. No, they
Speaker 1: weren't holding relationship. They weren't holding hands and singing Kumbai h.
Speaker 1: There were some hard asses in there, and people I know.
Speaker 1: I know their background, I know who they are, and
Speaker 1: the way they carry themselves, carry themselves that you drop
Speaker 1: them in any prison and they're hard asses. They're going,
Speaker 1: it's better we're coming out. I'm changing, okay.
Speaker 2: So obviously they would know they're experiencing. I never experienced that.
Speaker 2: I got nothing and it worked for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, No, it's interesting getting your getting your take
Speaker 1: on it. And I know the old school view is
Speaker 1: fuck that, why would we buy into that? But it
Speaker 1: seems to be working.
Speaker 2: Was horrible, and that's why don't want to give it.
Speaker 1: Okay, jail, okay.
Speaker 2: So when there's opportunities, I think there's a benefit here,
Speaker 2: but the downside's too severe. Thank you, but no, thank you.
Speaker 1: I can understand an argument.
Speaker 2: I'm not saying un punished counts harder because it'll determ.
Speaker 2: But for me, it just works for me.
Speaker 1: The punishment is I would suggest as well, not just
Speaker 1: surviving in the old traditional jails like you're talking about,
Speaker 1: but also you're taking away from your family and yeah
Speaker 1: you haven't got that freedom. Yeah, that has to that
Speaker 1: has to hit. But you were fortunate you got to
Speaker 1: hang out with Yeah, the brother, your brother and the
Speaker 1: Shanna Am that was fortunate. Well maybe maybe not.
Speaker 2: I was lucky in the cell with informost of my jail.
Speaker 2: I had to let him win chess. Otherwise you'll let
Speaker 2: me go to bed.
Speaker 1: Just get going and going.
Speaker 2: He's not stopping until he wins the game, so the
Speaker 2: third a fourth game.
Speaker 1: I let him win, all right, honest? Now honest, And
Speaker 1: this is how it's been described, with the kind of
Speaker 1: honesty that people call ruthless. I can see that in you.
Speaker 1: I think he's now nailed. You're there. You don't what
Speaker 1: you say is what you think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't pull any punches. I mean trying not
Speaker 2: to be offensive, but you know, I try and be
Speaker 2: you know, like, we'll got something to say, I'll say it.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm saying that in you also, good son, good father,
Speaker 1: good friends. How important do you place place? Family?
Speaker 2: It's priority? That was back in the big club for me,
Speaker 2: it was a family, work, then bike, you know, so
Speaker 2: we didn't we didn't across those terms. So a lot
Speaker 2: of people's bike first, everything our secondary, and their family
Speaker 2: is first. Bro, That's how we grew up. I love
Speaker 2: my family and they love me. It's amazing.
Speaker 1: Well you got to love the family. Yeah, okay, you
Speaker 1: get out of prison. What did you hope to do
Speaker 1: with your life when you got out?
Speaker 2: I had no doubt about my capacity. I didn't have
Speaker 2: any specific plans. I had materialized all different scenarios prior
Speaker 2: to getting out all these little success stories in my head.
Speaker 2: And you know it, when I got out of prison,
Speaker 2: I was so confident and so fit and so much
Speaker 2: smarter and well read that I felt like I was
Speaker 2: twelve foot tall. And what I noticed is that even
Speaker 2: though I was away for ten years, I thought nothing
Speaker 2: had really changed. People had the same dialogue, they were
Speaker 2: in the same sort of similar clothing, They're driving the
Speaker 2: same fucking cap.
Speaker 1: What years was this? What you to?
Speaker 2: Ninety seven?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I mean not everybody, but the people that
Speaker 2: I knew, I just felt had and progressed. And even
Speaker 2: though I felt even though I'd been incarcerated, I'd achieved
Speaker 2: so much more. So, you know, my confidence was through
Speaker 2: the roof, and you know, I accomplished a lot, very
Speaker 2: very quickly.
Speaker 1: So okay, so that's interesting. You say you're come out,
Speaker 1: you feel twelve foot tall, you're fit, obviously, you've been
Speaker 1: training in there, you're well read, and you're walking out. Well,
Speaker 1: it hasn't broken me here, I am ready to take
Speaker 1: on the world. Is that the type of lay opened
Speaker 1: the gate you walk out?
Speaker 2: What I got picked up on my girl?
Speaker 1: How did you get a girl or did you the
Speaker 1: girl stay by you?
Speaker 2: What's and for a few girls over the years. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: he just made.
Speaker 1: Them well, just like the bad boy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, strippers and shit, yeah, I was a stripper and
Speaker 2: she picked me up and off we went went home.
Speaker 2: It was great, honestly, like within a couple of days,
Speaker 2: it's been like I've never left.
Speaker 1: You're resilient, aren't you. Like a lot of people would
Speaker 1: freaks them out. They come out the freedom and really yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what they do. The systems designed to
Speaker 2: like when you're doing a long sentence, so for a
Speaker 2: court six years. Yeah, so you do your third maximum,
Speaker 2: third medium minimum, and the last third you have you're
Speaker 2: integrated into society. They give you the day release and
Speaker 2: start with four hours eight hours and progresses to twenty
Speaker 2: four so when by the time you get out of
Speaker 2: the system, you know you're you re integrated a little bit.
Speaker 2: We were special. So when we got to our last third,
Speaker 2: they changed the rules so they wouldn't give us. They
Speaker 2: wouldn't give my brother money.
Speaker 1: Do you think that might have had something to do
Speaker 1: with your belting people?
Speaker 2: And pretty much yeah, they said you can have me
Speaker 2: in the last twelve months. We got to our last
Speaker 2: five months and they tell us the fuck off. The
Speaker 2: last seven months. We went to a privately run prison
Speaker 2: and then we were eligible for leaves.
Speaker 1: Did you get out the same time as your brother?
Speaker 2: I got out two weeks later, but he wrote to
Speaker 2: the parole board and said he couldn't have good consciousness
Speaker 2: leave me behind. It would have a negative impact on
Speaker 2: our parents, and could he please stay a bit longer.
Speaker 1: How did they react today, Well, they knew.
Speaker 2: What we were like. You couldn't separate us. They tried
Speaker 2: to separate us a few times. We just turned it
Speaker 2: on like one jar. We turned it right on, bro.
Speaker 1: So that was that when when you say turned it on,
Speaker 1: we're not mucking around here. It's not just your winging burned.
Speaker 2: To the ground, right, We had fucking SAgs and they
Speaker 2: shit happened and they joined us back together again. We
Speaker 2: used to meet back in Pantridge when they separated us.
Speaker 1: If that mind me saying you would have been a
Speaker 1: pain in the ass, you two not really.
Speaker 2: We made our own business, bro, We didn't you with anyone.
Speaker 2: But just don't fuck around with us, that's all. Don't
Speaker 2: try and separate us aage nonsense just because some can't
Speaker 2: got iron barred. That happens so they separated. They thought
Speaker 2: that shang up my brother from Castlemaine, little dog jail ladies.
Speaker 2: And while I was locked into a certain section that
Speaker 2: you couldn't get through, but I got through. I got
Speaker 2: straight out of there and went in front of the
Speaker 2: governor and put it on it. And the stupid can't said,
Speaker 2: put it in an application. Well they didn't fucking add.
Speaker 1: Well, okay, well we want to hear hear it real.
Speaker 1: We're getting it, getting it real. How are you going
Speaker 1: to get back on your feet when you got out?
Speaker 1: You got to earn a dollar or you've got to
Speaker 1: do something. Where did you think you were going to
Speaker 1: head to?
Speaker 2: My parents? My family gave me, gave us a bit
Speaker 2: of money, mak to just give a kick a lot nothing.
Speaker 2: But then I got contacted by a company that that
Speaker 2: locate dormant companies that have assets and wealth in them.
Speaker 1: Talk us through that.
Speaker 2: Yes, I had one hundred andy grants sat in the
Speaker 2: company that everyone forgot about.
Speaker 1: You got that, you got the money. Yeah, so the
Speaker 1: first gift from give from heaven.
Speaker 2: So that was my kickstart.
Speaker 1: Okay, well look we might take a break here, Jay,
Speaker 1: but I think people are getting the saints and that's
Speaker 1: what I hope to get and with this chat, getting
Speaker 1: the sense of the type of person you are. When
Speaker 1: we come back in for part two, we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about your next move into the world of O mcg.
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the type of negotiations you do.
Speaker 1: I even want to talk about your treasure hunt looking
Speaker 1: for a sunken sunken ship. Yeah, throw that one in,
Speaker 1: and then the lead up of what happened when the
Speaker 1: car bomb went up, and whatever else we decide to
Speaker 1: talk about. But we'll be back soon. Cheers.