WEBVTT - Surviving a car bomb assassination: Jay Malkoun Pt.1 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:04.960 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:08.119 Detective see a side of life the average persons never 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:11.160 exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.120 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:16.280 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:20.599 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, said, 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.200 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.480 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:28.840 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.520 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.680 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.720 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:40.559 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:49.120 Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Now, we've 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:51.839 had a lot of colorful characters here on I Catch Killers, 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:55.320 and often their stories are about redemption. Well, today's guests 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:57.560 is a real hard ass and his story is not 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:01.360 about redemption. He served ten years in prison and was 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:04.560 the target of a savage car by meaning Greece. How 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:07.880 he's still alive is a miracle in itself. Now he 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:10.760 lives by a moral code that most people wouldn't understand, 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:13.560 but it served him well in the world that he inhabited. 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:17.440 He's a fascinating character who I was certainly aware of 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:20.319 when I was in the Cops speaking to him before 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:23.600 he came on the podcast and I mentioned redemption. He 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:26.240 pointed out to me in a very direct manner, this 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:28.560 is not a fucking story of redemption. That's a story 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:31.800 about who I am. He made his point clear and 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:34.959 gained my respect in a way some people might not understand, 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:38.640 but after you hear today's episode, you might appreciate where 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:41.360 I'm coming from. He certainly couldn't be accused of being 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:45.279 a hypocrite. Today's guest, J mal Kuhn is the author 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:49.080 of The Consultant. That's his autobiography about a life that 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:51.440 he lived on his terms. This is going to be 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:54.840 a real good one. J mal Kuhn, Welcome to I 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:55.640 Catch Killers. 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:56.800 Thanks for having me. 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:00.240 Well, it's good to sit down and have a chat 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:02.760 with you. I knew about you when I was doing 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:05.880 what I was doing in the Cops, and I got 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:08.040 to say, ten years ago, I didn't think you and 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:10.480 I would be seeing a room and recording a conversation. 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:12.239 Changed. 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:15.640 It has has changed, But it is good to see you. 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:17.880 And I've read your book, and I've got to say, 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:20.280 there's a lot of books I read before people come 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:22.720 on that you book The Consultant, and I found it 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:23.639 really fascinating. 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:24.160 Thank you. 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:26.959 The life that you've lived, it's been a colorful life. 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:27.760 It's been good. 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:30.960 Yeah, and you're still here in one piece, one piece. 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:35.240 What do you put that down to duck and weave? Yeah, good, 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:36.040 good advice? 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:37.040 Your environment? 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:40.720 Do you reckon it was in your DNA upbringing or 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:43.080 whatever what steered you to the life that you've lived. 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:45.200 Looking back, what was it about you? Was it in 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:47.720 your personality or was it just circumstances. 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:51.200 I think it's just my need for more. I just 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:54.920 wanted more. I'm prepared to do whatever it takes to 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:57.840 get more. Up to a degree, we have a moral compass, 0:02:58.120 --> 0:02:59.639 you know, I'd probably take a bit more recent the 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.760 average and prepared to commit a bit more of myself, 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:06.600 maybe sacrifice a bit, but yeah, I wanted more. 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:10.320 So a risk taker, and you put the effort in that. 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:13.440 It certainly came across in your book because there's, yeah, 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:15.800 there's a crime side, but there's a business side. And 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:18.080 you seem to be driven in every aspect of your life. 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:21.959 And they're also family training. You're just a driven type 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:22.280 of guy. 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:25.560 Yeah. Well, you know, we grew up in an environment 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:28.200 where we weren't lazy, and we did whatever we need 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:30.160 to do to get ahead. You know, we thought for 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:31.880 what we had and then we thought to keep it. 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:34.640 That wasn't just me, that was the community. And if 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:37.480 you didn't apply that attitude, you got left behind and 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:40.680 probably became a victim. So, I mean, I'm not your negro. 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:43.160 When we were growing up, every almost like everyone had 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:46.480 that little bit of an edge, you know, outsmart the 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:49.240 next person, get a little bit more, trick him into 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:56.320 given over his fucking swap cards started shout to Marbles 0:03:56.520 --> 0:03:57.640 to the left and go to the right. 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:00.680 Well, we're going to We're going to find out a 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:03.640 lot about your life. And I'm interested in the type 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:05.680 of person you are, and I think our listeners are 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:08.360 going to find it fascinating. Yeah, the world that you 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:10.160 played in was a pretty heavy world. And I just 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:13.080 want to read next tracked out from your book, and 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:15.920 this was twenty nineteen where you're a victim of a 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:18.320 car bombing. Yeah, I got to say, you're the first 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:20.440 person we've had on I catch killers that survived the 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:24.200 car bombing, So congrats there, thank you. And I had 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:26.480 a look at the pictures of the car and we'll 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:28.919 certainly put them up. And they were going for you. 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:32.080 It wasn't just a warning warning sign. 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:33.400 They went around. 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:36.280 Okay, this is an ext track from your book, and 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:38.720 I just want people to digest what I'm saying here 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:41.560 and then we'll delve into Jay's life a little bit more. 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:49.080 But Jesus, oh, okay, well it's a podcast. Jay has 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:51.600 just shown me an actual video, it must have been 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:55.120 captured on CCTV or something of the car explaining you 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:59.359 walked out of that. Yeah, yeah, no, it just looks 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:02.159 like a a dead set circus trick how you walked 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:04.960 out of that. But I might laugh about it, but 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:07.040 it's not a laughing matter. And I just want I 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:10.039 think this will bring to the realization what you actually 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:12.360 went through. And this is after the bomb's gone off. 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:15.279 This is a quote from Jay's book. When I tried 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:17.960 to stand, I felt that it was not my usual height. 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:21.840 Somehow I was shorter, significantly shorter. I looked down at 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:23.960 my leg and saw I was standing not on my foot, 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:26.680 but on my shin bone, just above the ankle. My 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:29.920 legs were completely mangled and my feet was totally fucked. 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:32.720 The blast ripped through my lower legs and broken both 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:35.719 of them off where the ankles met the foot. Ouch. 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:39.600 It didn't hurt, actually, be are Yeah, yeah, you're pumped. 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:42.000 Yeah you said that, and yeah, and I want to 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:44.360 delve when we will later in the podcast delve into 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:47.840 the actual bombing. But you also after the bombs got off, 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:50.880 your instinct was, well, I'm a target sitting here if 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:53.640 someone's going to try and finish me off. Hence why 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:55.400 you were trying to crawl out of the car. 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:57.360 Yeah, no good sitting in the car mate. 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.919 Well that's your survival instant kicking in, because a lot 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:02.799 of people might have just laid there and thought, okay, 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:06.039 this is it and except the inevitable. But do you 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:07.000 not in your makeup? 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:07.679 No chance? 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:12.320 Okay, all right, let's talk about your life growing up, family, 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:16.800 where you grew up, and who you were a young fellow. 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:22.960 Housing commissioned reservoir. Everybody was struggled. For us. A big 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:25.200 day out was paying footy, I'll go and across to 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:27.160 the creek and riding a horse, which was we were 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:33.160 consumed by normal activities. We grew up relatively normal. Now 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:35.560 that these kids they don't get to experience too much 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:37.480 or hiding behind the devices. 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:41.160 Yeah, I understand where you're coming from there, Jay. Some 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:44.039 of the best adventures I've had was you walk out 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:46.600 the houses a ten year old and I'll see you 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:49.479 when it gets dark. Get up to all sorts of shit. 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:50.600 That was with your mates. 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:53.240 Yeah, with us, we'd go to the drivings on our horses. 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:55.200 It was normal and it had a big holding the 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:59.240 gate in the fence. Excuse me, now, look because of 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:02.760 the I grew up in a very which which area 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:06.640 was this in Melbourne? It was? It was a It 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:10.400 was a housing community area, so everybody struggled and there 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:14.840 was a lot of foreigners, so you know everybody. Everybody 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:17.480 battled on and all the kids punched on. The parents 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:19.520 usually worked two jobs, so they weren't there to monitor 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:21.360 the children, so the children got up to their own 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:24.400 fucking devices. Yeah, and we all played up. Everyone played up. 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:28.360 What's your background? Lebanese parents came over from Leven. 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:31.680 My father came over first, and then he's a welder. 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:33.880 That was back in the sixties when they were promoting 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:36.000 for laborers to come to the country to help build 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:38.600 the country, and then he nine months later he afforded 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:40.760 the tickets for the rest of us, bought us a ticket, 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:43.240 and we all came over on a ship, mum and 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:43.960 five kids. 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:47.240 When you think about it like that, it's pretty gutsy, 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:48.080 isn't right. 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:50.320 You can't even imagine. My mom had to catch a 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:54.520 boat from Lebanon to Egypt, and a train from the 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:56.960 port of Egypt to another port, and then we waited 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:58.840 for four days for our tickets to be cleared. They 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:01.040 weren't clear, so the ship took off without as weren't 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:03.000 allowed on board. So then you've got a taxi for 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:07.320 seven hours to meet the ship pass the Nile, and 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:09.680 then we got on a small dingy boat and we 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:12.160 boarded the ship. I was still moving. I was two 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:14.600 years all the time, and all our world's belongings in 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:16.400 a big crad across and off we went. 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:19.080 I read I read that in your book when you 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:21.120 weren't a loud on the boat, and then your mum's 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:22.840 come up with that idea, and I thought, there's no 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:25.640 way she could have pulled that off, But she did. 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:27.720 She pulled there. There was no stopping her. 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:29.800 Well, that says a lot, doesn't it. 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:32.600 It's a different breed back then our parents, your parents, 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:35.880 no doubt, it's just tougher that we didn't accept to 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:38.840 know if there was a hurdle, we'd either go over 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:40.640 it or go around it. We just didn't stop. 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:45.240 I think comes with that resilience too, resilient. People throw 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:47.920 their hands up now if it's hit a hurdle, but 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:49.760 it was a more resilient world. 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:51.360 They throw the hands up and say, did a mental 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:53.199 health plan? What the fuck's that? Man? 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:57.079 I'm hearing you and I'm not talking everyone. People do 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:00.280 suffer it, but absolutely the card gets played quite often. 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:03.679 What about brothers and sisters? And where did you fit in? 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:07.120 I was the youngest of four boys and the second 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:10.400 youngest child. My mother had a six child in Australia, 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:13.160 my younger sister, and I was the one who used 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:15.040 to get beatn up as a child by the other brothers. 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:16.720 All the time. It's run all the errands to get 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:19.200 the shick academy, so you know, I'll get it up. 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:22.560 Used to fighting or getting beaten at least or running. 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:25.800 It's funny at the time, you don't realize the benefits 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:28.080 that's going to create for you in life. 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:31.600 Absolutely, mate. That bills resilience, you know, the endurancy you 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.760 get from other people's aggression, and how to deal with it, 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:37.960 how to monitor a situation, how to avoid a situation, 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:42.280 understanding your environment. I've got with three very aggressive boys. 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:45.120 I was the smallest and the victim. 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:47.800 That carries you like you've burned in some very violent 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:52.720 environments inside prison, in outlaw, motorcycle gangs. That type of 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:54.440 skill set that you would have picked up as a 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:57.280 young fellow. How did the fuse? How know when to strike? 0:09:57.280 --> 0:09:59.240 If you've got to strike? It must have come in 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:00.840 handy later on in light. 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.120 It came and had you in jail. Jail is very volatile. 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:06.600 It goes off at any second, and you can if 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:08.400 you know how to read the play, you can read 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:11.240 the play always. You can just you could just see 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:13.600 by the movements. A couple of guys gathering in the corner, 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:16.800 whispering hands under the shirt. You know they're hiding a shoe, 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:19.600 just acting a bit strange looking at someone you know 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:21.880 he's only about to cop it. You know, you pick 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:23.160 up on these. I mean, you don't get a lot 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:25.720 of time sometimes they're clever enough and thick enough to 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:27.240 do it behind the close stoor. 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:30.480 I remember reading that portion in your book, and it 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:33.600 was very much Yeah, I understood what you're saying there. 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:35.199 You just got to You've got to have your eyes 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:37.520 open to what's going on. If you walk through there 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:40.360 with ignorant bliss, you're going to get walk in on 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:42.280 something or or something's going to happen to you. 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:46.000 Even eating, even eating in the in the hall, if 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:49.079 you're not sitting with your back inst the wall, a 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:50.400 big chance you're going to get a ship in the 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:52.800 back of your neck as someone walks past. Just what 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:55.120 we keep walking violently happens all the time. 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:58.560 Yeah, I'm getting a sense of your childhood and i'd 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:01.760 say you look back with that with fond memories as 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:04.760 you as you left school. What were you aiming to do? 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:10.640 You know, take over the world? Just kidding. Look, I 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:14.280 was very fortunate because I'm not educated, and you know, 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:17.280 through fighting martial arts and being in Hong Kong, I 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:20.240 fell into a bit of drugs and then I made 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:22.199 a little bit of money and I met some people 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:24.240 throughout my life that helped me along the way. So 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:27.040 at a very early age. I was very ambitious and 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:29.680 I did what I could with you my capacity to 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:33.240 grow some wealth. Then, you know, we might after a 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:36.040 couple of years of fucking around with the triads, so 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:38.120 I thought that was the end. That was enough for me. 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:40.439 I felt the surveillance it was getting a bit strong, 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:43.000 so I thought I'd tap out before you know. It 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:45.360 didn't end well, so we moved to Perth. I love Perth. 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:48.199 Me and my brothers collectively put our money together and 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:50.120 bought a club. We bought in a club there of it. 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:54.400 The entry point there was eighty five grand you buy fight. 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:57.240 We spent fifty on it and they're you're done. In Perth, 0:11:57.280 --> 0:12:00.679 they usually shut down earlier in the week. We had. 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:02.040 The club happened six nights a week. 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:05.080 You had. I'm not sure if the mining boom had 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:07.160 hit there, but you had a lot of disposable income 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:10.400 at times during during Perth when the mines were going off. 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:15.160 The Perth has always been relatively wealthy and they're good drinkers. 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:17.839 So this wasn't a big club, so it wasn't hard 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:19.720 to like two hundred and fifty people capacity. 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:22.360 I find that interesting too. You've got that side of 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:25.320 your life where you've crossed the line in the law, 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.560 but you've also got that entrepreneur in you that business. Okay, 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:30.319 so the clubs aren't open at this time, or we're 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:32.560 going to open the club and that's going to bring 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:33.040 the people in. 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:35.280 Oh yeah, we killed it. We did really really well. 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:37.840 We did things like on Monday, we introduced Monday Madness, 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:40.880 where we'd employ seven or eight DJs from around the 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:43.120 town and we'd give them their own cards, and anyone 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:45.480 that they brought in we'd pay for their fifteen minute 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:47.720 set and then paying for every person they brought in 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:50.040 and we'd give them a drink card. The place was 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:50.960 busy than a Saturday. 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:55.280 That's just tapping in the people like it's Monday, there's nothing. 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.199 Going on, and then a couple hundred the one that 0:12:57.200 --> 0:12:58.000 to come out and never drink. 0:12:58.640 --> 0:12:59.760 Where did you get that from? 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:00.000 Did you? 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:01.840 Because it's not a formal education, is it. 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:04.000 I started bouncing just when I turned eighteen, so I 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:07.679 was working in nightclubs from eighteen to twenty twenty one 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:08.640 until I moved to Perth. 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:11.600 You mentioned your martial arts. What was your martial arts 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:12.960 journey where that I started? 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:15.520 I started with Bruce Lee at the age of five. 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:18.920 Yeah, as we all did you look at that and yeah. 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:21.720 And started on take one day Tuesdays and Thursdays in 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:26.719 colum with seafool Henry or instractor Henry. And we did 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:29.320 that for until I was like sixteen fifteen. That I 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:31.880 got I fell into the Lacey brothers. They were in 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:34.760 Melbourne looking to open an academy and I was introduced 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.360 to them and we started training and we trained six 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:39.480 days a week in the park because they didn't have 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:42.400 their own facility and they were training me to fight overseas. 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:44.320 And that's when I was introduced to Perth. I went 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:45.920 over there to train with them at Perth because they 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:50.080 are from Perth. And then I trained until I was nineteen, 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:54.880 found money at twenty and the train still trained, but 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:56.520 not as committed I was. I was ice to train 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:56.960 all the time. 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:02.280 That took you over the Hong Kong with the different things, totally. 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.320 Yeah, A couple of times stayed with my grandmaster. Okay 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:06.160 an experience. 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:09.520 Yeah, I founded in your book the soule that you're doing. 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:13.120 I trained under some of those people myself and yeah, 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:16.640 they're pretty pretty committed, aren't They very committed life, So 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:19.320 that got you to working the door in clubs. You're 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:21.720 keeping an eye on it, thinking, well, you know, working 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:23.360 the doors pretty fun, but I don't want to be 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:24.880 doing this for the rest of my life. Is that 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:26.080 the type of attitude that. 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:27.600 Yeah, I could have done it forever because I loved 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:30.520 it as I love fighting. But I found money, so 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:33.520 I bought a club, and then you know, we managed 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:36.720 to club ourselves and then we discovered prison. 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:42.080 Okay, well we're going to get to get to the 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:44.600 prison story. But how old were you when you had 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:45.000 a club? 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:47.680 Twenty two? 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:50.880 Okay, getting a sense of you, twenty two, you've got 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:53.600 a club, you're the man. You would have been enjoying yourself, 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:58.400 but I killed it. Tell us about life sotile there 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:00.560 because most people at that age wouldn't be able to 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:02.160 enjoy lifestyle like that. 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:04.440 Well there was. I had a few friends out from 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:06.360 Melbourne as well. They always came over and stay, so 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:10.960 we had a penhouse. We had another house at the 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:12.240 night clubs, had two clubs. 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:14.240 Actually bought another one which part of Perth. 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:18.520 Rockenham and north Bridge. Okay, and life is great mate 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:21.960 beaches during the day clubs. During the evening we all trained. 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:26.040 We weren't really drinkers, or we didn't didn't take drugs. 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:30.360 We just just enjoyed life, trained beach my life and ate. 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:33.360 Well, when the drugs started coming into it, what was 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.080 your You look back and there You've got to quote 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:40.120 here about heroin that you said. I'm not the kind 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:42.640 of person who carries around a lot of regrets, but 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:45.160 I regret heroin. It's not even that I regret the 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:47.680 ten years I spent in jail cells after I was pinched. 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:50.280 I regret the damage that heroin that I moved would 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:52.520 have done to the community. The age of twenty two, 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:55.040 I didn't appreciate the consequences of my actions. 0:15:55.200 --> 0:16:00.280 Yeah, that's true. Actually, just before I was pinched, started 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:05.000 dating and Chip, probably six months earlier, and I was 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:08.200 your chick, who I didn't know at the time it 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:11.440 was on heroin, but she was on it recreationally right 0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:14.920 towards towards the end. Actually, I discovered that she was 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:17.640 and I did my best to remove out of that environment. 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:20.360 Then when I was once I was incarcerated, she ran 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:22.680 a muck and I was in love with her. So 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:24.760 that's how I felt the consequences of it. You saw 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:25.480 that affected me. 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:28.720 Personally, Okay, that the first hand account. You saw the 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:30.280 damage that it could do did. 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:32.480 To her, to a family. To me personally, you know, 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:34.880 I felt the pain. So then you know when you 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:37.440 reflect back on that, I mean, I'm not a selfish person, 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:41.120 so I look at mine my own grief and assume 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:44.320 that other people had similar grief and the ongoing negative 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:46.600 impact did have on the community. I didn't get it. 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:50.960 In court, the prosecutor and the judgement, they fucking hated me. 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:53.960 I think, what's all the fuss about. 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:58.000 What you guys? Because your brother who went down for 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:02.280 it too, and you you painted those major league criminals 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:03.960 in the media. What do you reckon that was about? 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:06.240 Ah Man? That was when the NCAA was I mean 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:08.360 not taking any neat credit away from them, because we 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:11.560 were significant for that era, but that was when the 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:15.359 NCAA first was formed, and you know, they were given 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:18.280 unlimited powers. They were pulling guys out of prison for information, 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:21.080 to set people up, and all they had achieved up 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:22.840 until that point. I think they were around for a 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:25.960 couple of years. They got abe Cefron for six months 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:28.560 tax evasion. That's all they've got. They really didn't I 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:30.760 didn't accomplish. My I suppose it's all the early days. 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:35.440 Then you get a couple of young Lebanese boys, penthouses, houses, clubs, nightclubs, 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:38.399 fucking boats, Harley's. It paints a really good picture. 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:41.080 And you know they milked it Middle East and guys. 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:42.680 And there were some guns that recovered. 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:44.639 There are a lot of guns too, in particular that were 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:48.040 silence machine guns, really good weapons. So I mean, it 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:49.639 really did paint a good picture. And look from their 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:53.480 special perfect perception, they probably thought that they had the 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:56.600 big guys. Unfortunately we weren't so big. 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:58.959 In a reverse sort of why it worked in your 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:01.600 favor when you did go inside, because you had a 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:05.000 reputation that had some benefits on the inside because of 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:08.520 the way you were portrayed. Absolutely, tell me about your downfall. 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:10.919 Did you know what was coming, had you been locked up, 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:14.160 had you been given like warning signs beforehand, like we're 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:16.000 pushing it too hard? Or did it just hit you 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:17.560 all at once when the cops caught you. 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:19.639 Oh no, no, I was done with it. I was 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:22.400 done way before I went to Perth. I actually, I'm 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:24.280 not even joking. I did it a few times. It 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:27.679