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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, said,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Now, we've

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Speaker 1: had a lot of colorful characters here on I Catch Killers,

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Speaker 1: and often their stories are about redemption. Well, today's guests

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Speaker 1: is a real hard ass and his story is not

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Speaker 1: about redemption. He served ten years in prison and was

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Speaker 1: the target of a savage car by meaning Greece. How

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Speaker 1: he's still alive is a miracle in itself. Now he

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Speaker 1: lives by a moral code that most people wouldn't understand,

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Speaker 1: but it served him well in the world that he inhabited.

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Speaker 1: He's a fascinating character who I was certainly aware of

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Speaker 1: when I was in the Cops speaking to him before

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Speaker 1: he came on the podcast and I mentioned redemption. He

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Speaker 1: pointed out to me in a very direct manner, this

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Speaker 1: is not a fucking story of redemption. That's a story

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Speaker 1: about who I am. He made his point clear and

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Speaker 1: gained my respect in a way some people might not understand,

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Speaker 1: but after you hear today's episode, you might appreciate where

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Speaker 1: I'm coming from. He certainly couldn't be accused of being

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Speaker 1: a hypocrite. Today's guest, J mal Kuhn is the author

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Speaker 1: of The Consultant. That's his autobiography about a life that

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Speaker 1: he lived on his terms. This is going to be

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Speaker 1: a real good one. J mal Kuhn, Welcome to I

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Speaker 1: Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's good to sit down and have a chat

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Speaker 1: with you. I knew about you when I was doing

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Speaker 1: what I was doing in the Cops, and I got

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Speaker 1: to say, ten years ago, I didn't think you and

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Speaker 1: I would be seeing a room and recording a conversation.

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Speaker 2: Changed.

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Speaker 1: It has has changed, But it is good to see you.

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Speaker 1: And I've read your book, and I've got to say,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of books I read before people come

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Speaker 1: on that you book The Consultant, and I found it

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Speaker 1: really fascinating.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: The life that you've lived, it's been a colorful life.

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Speaker 2: It's been good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're still here in one piece, one piece.

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Speaker 1: What do you put that down to duck and weave? Yeah, good,

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Speaker 1: good advice?

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Speaker 2: Your environment?

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Speaker 1: Do you reckon it was in your DNA upbringing or

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Speaker 1: whatever what steered you to the life that you've lived.

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Speaker 1: Looking back, what was it about you? Was it in

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Speaker 1: your personality or was it just circumstances.

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Speaker 2: I think it's just my need for more. I just

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Speaker 2: wanted more. I'm prepared to do whatever it takes to

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Speaker 2: get more. Up to a degree, we have a moral compass,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'd probably take a bit more recent the

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Speaker 2: average and prepared to commit a bit more of myself,

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Speaker 2: maybe sacrifice a bit, but yeah, I wanted more.

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Speaker 1: So a risk taker, and you put the effort in that.

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Speaker 1: It certainly came across in your book because there's, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a crime side, but there's a business side. And

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Speaker 1: you seem to be driven in every aspect of your life.

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Speaker 1: And they're also family training. You're just a driven type

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Speaker 1: of guy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, you know, we grew up in an environment

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Speaker 2: where we weren't lazy, and we did whatever we need

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Speaker 2: to do to get ahead. You know, we thought for

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Speaker 2: what we had and then we thought to keep it.

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Speaker 2: That wasn't just me, that was the community. And if

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Speaker 2: you didn't apply that attitude, you got left behind and

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Speaker 2: probably became a victim. So, I mean, I'm not your negro.

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Speaker 2: When we were growing up, every almost like everyone had

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Speaker 2: that little bit of an edge, you know, outsmart the

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Speaker 2: next person, get a little bit more, trick him into

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Speaker 2: given over his fucking swap cards started shout to Marbles

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Speaker 2: to the left and go to the right.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're going to We're going to find out a

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Speaker 1: lot about your life. And I'm interested in the type

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Speaker 1: of person you are, and I think our listeners are

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Speaker 1: going to find it fascinating. Yeah, the world that you

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Speaker 1: played in was a pretty heavy world. And I just

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Speaker 1: want to read next tracked out from your book, and

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Speaker 1: this was twenty nineteen where you're a victim of a

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Speaker 1: car bombing. Yeah, I got to say, you're the first

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Speaker 1: person we've had on I catch killers that survived the

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Speaker 1: car bombing, So congrats there, thank you. And I had

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Speaker 1: a look at the pictures of the car and we'll

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Speaker 1: certainly put them up. And they were going for you.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't just a warning warning sign.

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Speaker 2: They went around.

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Speaker 1: Okay, this is an ext track from your book, and

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Speaker 1: I just want people to digest what I'm saying here

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Speaker 1: and then we'll delve into Jay's life a little bit more.

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Speaker 1: But Jesus, oh, okay, well it's a podcast. Jay has

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Speaker 1: just shown me an actual video, it must have been

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Speaker 1: captured on CCTV or something of the car explaining you

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Speaker 1: walked out of that. Yeah, yeah, no, it just looks

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Speaker 1: like a a dead set circus trick how you walked

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Speaker 1: out of that. But I might laugh about it, but

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Speaker 1: it's not a laughing matter. And I just want I

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Speaker 1: think this will bring to the realization what you actually

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Speaker 1: went through. And this is after the bomb's gone off.

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Speaker 1: This is a quote from Jay's book. When I tried

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Speaker 1: to stand, I felt that it was not my usual height.

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Speaker 1: Somehow I was shorter, significantly shorter. I looked down at

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Speaker 1: my leg and saw I was standing not on my foot,

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Speaker 1: but on my shin bone, just above the ankle. My

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Speaker 1: legs were completely mangled and my feet was totally fucked.

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Speaker 1: The blast ripped through my lower legs and broken both

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Speaker 1: of them off where the ankles met the foot. Ouch.

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Speaker 2: It didn't hurt, actually, be are Yeah, yeah, you're pumped.

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Speaker 1: Yeah you said that, and yeah, and I want to

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Speaker 1: delve when we will later in the podcast delve into

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Speaker 1: the actual bombing. But you also after the bombs got off,

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Speaker 1: your instinct was, well, I'm a target sitting here if

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Speaker 1: someone's going to try and finish me off. Hence why

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Speaker 1: you were trying to crawl out of the car.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no good sitting in the car mate.

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Speaker 1: Well that's your survival instant kicking in, because a lot

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Speaker 1: of people might have just laid there and thought, okay,

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Speaker 1: this is it and except the inevitable. But do you

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Speaker 1: not in your makeup?

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Speaker 2: No chance?

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, let's talk about your life growing up, family,

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Speaker 1: where you grew up, and who you were a young fellow.

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Speaker 2: Housing commissioned reservoir. Everybody was struggled. For us. A big

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Speaker 2: day out was paying footy, I'll go and across to

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Speaker 2: the creek and riding a horse, which was we were

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Speaker 2: consumed by normal activities. We grew up relatively normal. Now

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Speaker 2: that these kids they don't get to experience too much

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Speaker 2: or hiding behind the devices.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand where you're coming from there, Jay. Some

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Speaker 1: of the best adventures I've had was you walk out

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Speaker 1: the houses a ten year old and I'll see you

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Speaker 1: when it gets dark. Get up to all sorts of shit.

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Speaker 1: That was with your mates.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, with us, we'd go to the drivings on our horses.

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Speaker 2: It was normal and it had a big holding the

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Speaker 2: gate in the fence. Excuse me, now, look because of

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Speaker 2: the I grew up in a very which which area

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Speaker 2: was this in Melbourne? It was? It was a It

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Speaker 2: was a housing community area, so everybody struggled and there

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Speaker 2: was a lot of foreigners, so you know everybody. Everybody

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Speaker 2: battled on and all the kids punched on. The parents

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Speaker 2: usually worked two jobs, so they weren't there to monitor

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Speaker 2: the children, so the children got up to their own

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Speaker 2: fucking devices. Yeah, and we all played up. Everyone played up.

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Speaker 1: What's your background? Lebanese parents came over from Leven.

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Speaker 2: My father came over first, and then he's a welder.

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Speaker 2: That was back in the sixties when they were promoting

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Speaker 2: for laborers to come to the country to help build

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Speaker 2: the country, and then he nine months later he afforded

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Speaker 2: the tickets for the rest of us, bought us a ticket,

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Speaker 2: and we all came over on a ship, mum and

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Speaker 2: five kids.

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Speaker 1: When you think about it like that, it's pretty gutsy,

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Speaker 1: isn't right.

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Speaker 2: You can't even imagine. My mom had to catch a

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Speaker 2: boat from Lebanon to Egypt, and a train from the

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Speaker 2: port of Egypt to another port, and then we waited

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Speaker 2: for four days for our tickets to be cleared. They

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Speaker 2: weren't clear, so the ship took off without as weren't

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Speaker 2: allowed on board. So then you've got a taxi for

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Speaker 2: seven hours to meet the ship pass the Nile, and

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Speaker 2: then we got on a small dingy boat and we

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Speaker 2: boarded the ship. I was still moving. I was two

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Speaker 2: years all the time, and all our world's belongings in

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Speaker 2: a big crad across and off we went.

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Speaker 1: I read I read that in your book when you

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Speaker 1: weren't a loud on the boat, and then your mum's

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Speaker 1: come up with that idea, and I thought, there's no

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Speaker 1: way she could have pulled that off, But she did.

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Speaker 2: She pulled there. There was no stopping her.

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Speaker 1: Well, that says a lot, doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: It's a different breed back then our parents, your parents,

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Speaker 2: no doubt, it's just tougher that we didn't accept to

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Speaker 2: know if there was a hurdle, we'd either go over

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Speaker 2: it or go around it. We just didn't stop.

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Speaker 1: I think comes with that resilience too, resilient. People throw

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Speaker 1: their hands up now if it's hit a hurdle, but

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Speaker 1: it was a more resilient world.

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Speaker 2: They throw the hands up and say, did a mental

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Speaker 2: health plan? What the fuck's that? Man?

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing you and I'm not talking everyone. People do

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Speaker 1: suffer it, but absolutely the card gets played quite often.

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Speaker 1: What about brothers and sisters? And where did you fit in?

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Speaker 2: I was the youngest of four boys and the second

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Speaker 2: youngest child. My mother had a six child in Australia,

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Speaker 2: my younger sister, and I was the one who used

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Speaker 2: to get beatn up as a child by the other brothers.

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Speaker 2: All the time. It's run all the errands to get

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Speaker 2: the shick academy, so you know, I'll get it up.

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Speaker 2: Used to fighting or getting beaten at least or running.

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Speaker 1: It's funny at the time, you don't realize the benefits

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Speaker 1: that's going to create for you in life.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, mate. That bills resilience, you know, the endurancy you

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Speaker 2: get from other people's aggression, and how to deal with it,

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Speaker 2: how to monitor a situation, how to avoid a situation,

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Speaker 2: understanding your environment. I've got with three very aggressive boys.

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Speaker 2: I was the smallest and the victim.

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Speaker 1: That carries you like you've burned in some very violent

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Speaker 1: environments inside prison, in outlaw, motorcycle gangs. That type of

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Speaker 1: skill set that you would have picked up as a

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Speaker 1: young fellow. How did the fuse? How know when to strike?

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Speaker 1: If you've got to strike? It must have come in

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Speaker 1: handy later on in light.

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Speaker 2: It came and had you in jail. Jail is very volatile.

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Speaker 2: It goes off at any second, and you can if

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Speaker 2: you know how to read the play, you can read

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Speaker 2: the play always. You can just you could just see

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Speaker 2: by the movements. A couple of guys gathering in the corner,

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Speaker 2: whispering hands under the shirt. You know they're hiding a shoe,

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Speaker 2: just acting a bit strange looking at someone you know

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Speaker 2: he's only about to cop it. You know, you pick

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Speaker 2: up on these. I mean, you don't get a lot

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Speaker 2: of time sometimes they're clever enough and thick enough to

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Speaker 2: do it behind the close stoor.

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Speaker 1: I remember reading that portion in your book, and it

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Speaker 1: was very much Yeah, I understood what you're saying there.

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Speaker 1: You just got to You've got to have your eyes

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Speaker 1: open to what's going on. If you walk through there

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Speaker 1: with ignorant bliss, you're going to get walk in on

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Speaker 1: something or or something's going to happen to you.

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Speaker 2: Even eating, even eating in the in the hall, if

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Speaker 2: you're not sitting with your back inst the wall, a

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Speaker 2: big chance you're going to get a ship in the

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Speaker 2: back of your neck as someone walks past. Just what

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Speaker 2: we keep walking violently happens all the time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm getting a sense of your childhood and i'd

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Speaker 1: say you look back with that with fond memories as

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Speaker 1: you as you left school. What were you aiming to do?

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Speaker 2: You know, take over the world? Just kidding. Look, I

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Speaker 2: was very fortunate because I'm not educated, and you know,

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Speaker 2: through fighting martial arts and being in Hong Kong, I

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Speaker 2: fell into a bit of drugs and then I made

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Speaker 2: a little bit of money and I met some people

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Speaker 2: throughout my life that helped me along the way. So

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Speaker 2: at a very early age. I was very ambitious and

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Speaker 2: I did what I could with you my capacity to

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Speaker 2: grow some wealth. Then, you know, we might after a

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Speaker 2: couple of years of fucking around with the triads, so

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Speaker 2: I thought that was the end. That was enough for me.

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Speaker 2: I felt the surveillance it was getting a bit strong,

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Speaker 2: so I thought I'd tap out before you know. It

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Speaker 2: didn't end well, so we moved to Perth. I love Perth.

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Speaker 2: Me and my brothers collectively put our money together and

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Speaker 2: bought a club. We bought in a club there of it.

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Speaker 2: The entry point there was eighty five grand you buy fight.

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Speaker 2: We spent fifty on it and they're you're done. In Perth,

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Speaker 2: they usually shut down earlier in the week. We had.

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Speaker 2: The club happened six nights a week.

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Speaker 1: You had. I'm not sure if the mining boom had

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Speaker 1: hit there, but you had a lot of disposable income

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Speaker 1: at times during during Perth when the mines were going off.

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Speaker 2: The Perth has always been relatively wealthy and they're good drinkers.

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Speaker 2: So this wasn't a big club, so it wasn't hard

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Speaker 2: to like two hundred and fifty people capacity.

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Speaker 1: I find that interesting too. You've got that side of

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Speaker 1: your life where you've crossed the line in the law,

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Speaker 1: but you've also got that entrepreneur in you that business. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so the clubs aren't open at this time, or we're

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Speaker 1: going to open the club and that's going to bring

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Speaker 1: the people in.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we killed it. We did really really well.

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Speaker 2: We did things like on Monday, we introduced Monday Madness,

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Speaker 2: where we'd employ seven or eight DJs from around the

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Speaker 2: town and we'd give them their own cards, and anyone

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Speaker 2: that they brought in we'd pay for their fifteen minute

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Speaker 2: set and then paying for every person they brought in

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Speaker 2: and we'd give them a drink card. The place was

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Speaker 2: busy than a Saturday.

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Speaker 1: That's just tapping in the people like it's Monday, there's nothing.

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Speaker 2: Going on, and then a couple hundred the one that

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Speaker 2: to come out and never drink.

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Speaker 1: Where did you get that from?

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Speaker 2: Did you?

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Speaker 1: Because it's not a formal education, is it.

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Speaker 2: I started bouncing just when I turned eighteen, so I

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Speaker 2: was working in nightclubs from eighteen to twenty twenty one

287
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Speaker 2: until I moved to Perth.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned your martial arts. What was your martial arts

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Speaker 1: journey where that I started?

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Speaker 2: I started with Bruce Lee at the age of five.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as we all did you look at that and yeah.

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Speaker 2: And started on take one day Tuesdays and Thursdays in

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Speaker 2: colum with seafool Henry or instractor Henry. And we did

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Speaker 2: that for until I was like sixteen fifteen. That I

295
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Speaker 2: got I fell into the Lacey brothers. They were in

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Speaker 2: Melbourne looking to open an academy and I was introduced

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Speaker 2: to them and we started training and we trained six

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Speaker 2: days a week in the park because they didn't have

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Speaker 2: their own facility and they were training me to fight overseas.

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Speaker 2: And that's when I was introduced to Perth. I went

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Speaker 2: over there to train with them at Perth because they

302
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Speaker 2: are from Perth. And then I trained until I was nineteen,

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Speaker 2: found money at twenty and the train still trained, but

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Speaker 2: not as committed I was. I was ice to train

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Speaker 2: all the time.

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Speaker 1: That took you over the Hong Kong with the different things, totally.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, A couple of times stayed with my grandmaster. Okay

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Speaker 2: an experience.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I founded in your book the soule that you're doing.

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Speaker 1: I trained under some of those people myself and yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're pretty pretty committed, aren't They very committed life, So

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Speaker 1: that got you to working the door in clubs. You're

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Speaker 1: keeping an eye on it, thinking, well, you know, working

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Speaker 1: the doors pretty fun, but I don't want to be

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Speaker 1: doing this for the rest of my life. Is that

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Speaker 1: the type of attitude that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I could have done it forever because I loved

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Speaker 2: it as I love fighting. But I found money, so

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Speaker 2: I bought a club, and then you know, we managed

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Speaker 2: to club ourselves and then we discovered prison.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well we're going to get to get to the

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Speaker 1: prison story. But how old were you when you had

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Speaker 1: a club?

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Speaker 2: Twenty two?

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Speaker 1: Okay, getting a sense of you, twenty two, you've got

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Speaker 1: a club, you're the man. You would have been enjoying yourself,

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Speaker 1: but I killed it. Tell us about life sotile there

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Speaker 1: because most people at that age wouldn't be able to

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Speaker 1: enjoy lifestyle like that.

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Speaker 2: Well there was. I had a few friends out from

331
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Speaker 2: Melbourne as well. They always came over and stay, so

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Speaker 2: we had a penhouse. We had another house at the

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Speaker 2: night clubs, had two clubs.

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Speaker 1: Actually bought another one which part of Perth.

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Speaker 2: Rockenham and north Bridge. Okay, and life is great mate

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00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,960
Speaker 2: beaches during the day clubs. During the evening we all trained.

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Speaker 2: We weren't really drinkers, or we didn't didn't take drugs.

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Speaker 2: We just just enjoyed life, trained beach my life and ate.

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Speaker 1: Well, when the drugs started coming into it, what was

340
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,080
Speaker 1: your You look back and there You've got to quote

341
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Speaker 1: here about heroin that you said. I'm not the kind

342
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Speaker 1: of person who carries around a lot of regrets, but

343
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Speaker 1: I regret heroin. It's not even that I regret the

344
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Speaker 1: ten years I spent in jail cells after I was pinched.

345
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Speaker 1: I regret the damage that heroin that I moved would

346
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Speaker 1: have done to the community. The age of twenty two,

347
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,040
Speaker 1: I didn't appreciate the consequences of my actions.

348
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. Actually, just before I was pinched, started

349
00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:05,000
Speaker 2: dating and Chip, probably six months earlier, and I was

350
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,200
Speaker 2: your chick, who I didn't know at the time it

351
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,440
Speaker 2: was on heroin, but she was on it recreationally right

352
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Speaker 2: towards towards the end. Actually, I discovered that she was

353
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Speaker 2: and I did my best to remove out of that environment.

354
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Speaker 2: Then when I was once I was incarcerated, she ran

355
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Speaker 2: a muck and I was in love with her. So

356
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Speaker 2: that's how I felt the consequences of it. You saw

357
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:25,480
Speaker 2: that affected me.

358
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Speaker 1: Personally, Okay, that the first hand account. You saw the

359
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:30,280
Speaker 1: damage that it could do did.

360
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Speaker 2: To her, to a family. To me personally, you know,

361
00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,880
Speaker 2: I felt the pain. So then you know when you

362
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Speaker 2: reflect back on that, I mean, I'm not a selfish person,

363
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,120
Speaker 2: so I look at mine my own grief and assume

364
00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,320
Speaker 2: that other people had similar grief and the ongoing negative

365
00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,600
Speaker 2: impact did have on the community. I didn't get it.

366
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Speaker 2: In court, the prosecutor and the judgement, they fucking hated me.

367
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Speaker 2: I think, what's all the fuss about.

368
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Speaker 1: What you guys? Because your brother who went down for

369
00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:02,280
Speaker 1: it too, and you you painted those major league criminals

370
00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:03,960
Speaker 1: in the media. What do you reckon that was about?

371
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Speaker 2: Ah Man? That was when the NCAA was I mean

372
00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,360
Speaker 2: not taking any neat credit away from them, because we

373
00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,560
Speaker 2: were significant for that era, but that was when the

374
00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,359
Speaker 2: NCAA first was formed, and you know, they were given

375
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,280
Speaker 2: unlimited powers. They were pulling guys out of prison for information,

376
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,080
Speaker 2: to set people up, and all they had achieved up

377
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:22,840
Speaker 2: until that point. I think they were around for a

378
00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,960
Speaker 2: couple of years. They got abe Cefron for six months

379
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,560
Speaker 2: tax evasion. That's all they've got. They really didn't I

380
00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,760
Speaker 2: didn't accomplish. My I suppose it's all the early days.

381
00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:35,440
Speaker 2: Then you get a couple of young Lebanese boys, penthouses, houses, clubs, nightclubs,

382
00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,399
Speaker 2: fucking boats, Harley's. It paints a really good picture.

383
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Speaker 1: And you know they milked it Middle East and guys.

384
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Speaker 1: And there were some guns that recovered.

385
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Speaker 2: There are a lot of guns too, in particular that were

386
00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,040
Speaker 2: silence machine guns, really good weapons. So I mean, it

387
00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:49,639
Speaker 2: really did paint a good picture. And look from their

388
00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:53,480
Speaker 2: special perfect perception, they probably thought that they had the

389
00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,600
Speaker 2: big guys. Unfortunately we weren't so big.

390
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Speaker 1: In a reverse sort of why it worked in your

391
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,600
Speaker 1: favor when you did go inside, because you had a

392
00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,000
Speaker 1: reputation that had some benefits on the inside because of

393
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,520
Speaker 1: the way you were portrayed. Absolutely, tell me about your downfall.

394
00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:10,919
Speaker 1: Did you know what was coming, had you been locked up,

395
00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,160
Speaker 1: had you been given like warning signs beforehand, like we're

396
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,000
Speaker 1: pushing it too hard? Or did it just hit you

397
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:17,560
Speaker 1: all at once when the cops caught you.

398
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:19,639
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, I was done with it. I was

399
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,400
Speaker 2: done way before I went to Perth. I actually, I'm

400
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,280
Speaker 2: not even joking. I did it a few times. It

401
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,679
Speaker 2: wasn't like now it's consistent. Every now and then some

402
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:29,760
Speaker 2: would pop up and they'd call me, do you want it?

403
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,960
Speaker 2: Yes or no. I'd offer it yes or no. So

404
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,160
Speaker 2: then I was done with that. So I had no

405
00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:36,600
Speaker 2: clue that I was going to be in trouble with

406
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:38,520
Speaker 2: the law. So as I was concerned, I did it.

407
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:40,679
Speaker 2: I did not got away with it. That's the end

408
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,359
Speaker 2: of it. I didn't know about recordings, and you know,

409
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,600
Speaker 2: it's a different I thought that was used by day.

410
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,280
Speaker 2: You had to catch your fair and square like.

411
00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:49,960
Speaker 1: Actually, so if you got got the shipment, you were done.

412
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:51,520
Speaker 1: If they didn't grab you with the drugs in you.

413
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:53,840
Speaker 2: I had once scenario, and we knew we have been

414
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,880
Speaker 2: followed the police. We watched them the hiding behind cars.

415
00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,159
Speaker 2: I thought I could caught redhanders. So what I did

416
00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,159
Speaker 2: was I said my leveos walking briskly down Logan Street.

417
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:06,320
Speaker 2: The men and the other principal met around the corner.

418
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:07,640
Speaker 2: I was on a bike and I fucked off.

419
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,040
Speaker 1: With it and the cops went for the.

420
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,040
Speaker 2: I got away, dropped it off, went home with the bed.

421
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,320
Speaker 2: I got a both with it, actually I did. But

422
00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,080
Speaker 2: my point was I didn't realize the thing that he

423
00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,920
Speaker 2: can get some allance and recordings and witnesses, and he

424
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,320
Speaker 2: did that because I got back a bit.

425
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,800
Speaker 1: I've often we're creative in that. In that way, I've

426
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,280
Speaker 1: often wondered people that have made their money through crime

427
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,040
Speaker 1: or whatever the start out, but then the more it's like,

428
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,440
Speaker 1: that's the analogy of a boxer. A boxer that when

429
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,359
Speaker 1: they've got all the luxuries of life, they're not as

430
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,600
Speaker 1: hungry as they were on the street. When you're in

431
00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,440
Speaker 1: that world, did you think, am I taking two many

432
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,600
Speaker 1: risks now with it? Like I want to go I

433
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,720
Speaker 1: want to go legit. So I've got the money, I've

434
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,920
Speaker 1: got the fine lifestyle. Why take the risks of possibly

435
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,120
Speaker 1: doing ten years in jail? Did that cross your mind?

436
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:56,800
Speaker 2: Absolutely's why That's why I moved straight.

437
00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,040
Speaker 1: I thought I got too hot point.

438
00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:00,800
Speaker 2: Made a bit of money, not a lot of money,

439
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,600
Speaker 2: by the way, just enough to give myself a leg up.

440
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,879
Speaker 1: And I thought, you know, you don't believe those streets.

441
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,840
Speaker 1: You don't believe those street values. When the law enforcement

442
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,960
Speaker 1: pulled up a billon dollars worth of drugs were recovered,

443
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:14,159
Speaker 1: that type of stuff.

444
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:16,760
Speaker 2: They got I think three pounds it was one point

445
00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,400
Speaker 2: six killers, a heairline. Okay, what was worth back then?

446
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:20,960
Speaker 2: Six and eighty?

447
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:25,840
Speaker 1: Tell us what your life was on the day that

448
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,760
Speaker 1: you got locked up. What were you in a relationship?

449
00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:30,760
Speaker 2: I was in the relationship. I was about to get

450
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,200
Speaker 2: out of my forty four otion racer, had the boys

451
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,600
Speaker 2: waiting for me. It was a beautiful sunny day. We'll

452
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,280
Speaker 2: love a life trained ready that morning, had breakfast, feeling good,

453
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,680
Speaker 2: looking good, ready to take on another day. Amazing, this

454
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,000
Speaker 2: is the morning. By the afternoon, I'm living in the cell.

455
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,239
Speaker 2: My shoe was my pillow.

456
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,000
Speaker 1: How did you react to that?

457
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,000
Speaker 2: That was all good, not a problem.

458
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, I Look, I've spoken to a lot of people

459
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:57,879
Speaker 1: that have in and out of the jar and all that.

460
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 1: I've got to say, you are one of the most

461
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:04,160
Speaker 1: positive people about it, but not for everyone. You said

462
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,760
Speaker 1: your brother was doing it tougher in prison, just like

463
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 1: he needed his freedom. You you accept that. What was

464
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,119
Speaker 1: it about you that you could just is that the

465
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:13,879
Speaker 1: price I've got to pay for? No? I did.

466
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,399
Speaker 2: Look, I think with me through the martial arts and

467
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:20,560
Speaker 2: my training and my mindset, and you know, fearless, like

468
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 2: stupidly fearless. You know, it was just another for me.

469
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,080
Speaker 2: It was not going to be another experience. I just

470
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:27,879
Speaker 2: got to get on with it. Mean you can't. You

471
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:29,840
Speaker 2: don't ever trying to fuck it feel sorry for yourself.

472
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,399
Speaker 2: There's mayhem all around you. Doesn't matter how big a

473
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,719
Speaker 2: guy is. If you can hold a shive and you're

474
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,399
Speaker 2: quick enough, you can't have a fucking problem. Mate. So

475
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 2: for me, I just got on with it. I dealt

476
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 2: every day as it arrived.

477
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,159
Speaker 1: Okay, But there seems to be like an acceptance that

478
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,400
Speaker 1: you've gone, Okay, this is my lot in life.

479
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,399
Speaker 2: Okay, this is me. Its ten. Let's get on with it.

480
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 2: I mean I did obviously that wasn't by the time

481
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,880
Speaker 2: I was sentenced two years it explired. So we're down

482
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,840
Speaker 2: to eight. I still had an appeal. That's twelve months away.

483
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,160
Speaker 2: Down to seven, had another appeal, down to six, had

484
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,960
Speaker 2: another appeal down to five. On the downhill run, Let's

485
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:05,400
Speaker 2: get on with.

486
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,360
Speaker 1: It, okay, So you've accept that that way started off

487
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 1: at the team.

488
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,399
Speaker 2: Some people to rationalize their sentences, so they get a

489
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 2: well call it a nine new sentence. They plan and escape,

490
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:18,880
Speaker 2: so they say, okay, I need to get two years

491
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 2: under my belt to get to a medium maximum security.

492
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 2: Another two to get to a midium, but then I'm off.

493
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 2: So they think they're only doing two or four years.

494
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,000
Speaker 2: Then when they get to that four years, yeah, they

495
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 2: trot the towel then to get on with it. So

496
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 2: it's just psychological.

497
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,160
Speaker 1: Was it easier for you to do your time? Accepting? Okay,

498
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 1: this is where I'm at without fighting it internally.

499
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 2: I never I just accepted it. So I mean you're

500
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 2: still living, right, it's still having a laugh, you know,

501
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 2: it's still really you sleep out hours eight hours a

502
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 2: day and you work eight hours day. I'm missing eight

503
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,200
Speaker 2: hours a day effectively. I can guarantee you a couple

504
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:55,879
Speaker 2: of those would have been in the gym and at

505
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 2: least one or two watching TV. So I mean it's

506
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 2: a sacrifice. It is a sacrifice. You're missing all that

507
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 2: affection and emotional enjoyment with other women whatever, if that's

508
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 2: your thing, or blokes or whatever. But you know, it's

509
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,399
Speaker 2: not the end of the fucking world. Mate. Okay, you

510
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 2: met a lot of interesting people in jail, you read

511
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:14,680
Speaker 2: a lot of great books, you do a lot of

512
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 2: push ups, so you go home.

513
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 1: Yeah okay, so you because you said that when we

514
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 1: were chatting before the podcast, when we were talking the

515
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 1: other day. You said that I used it to my advantage,

516
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 1: absolutely and that, but there must have been some downtimes

517
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 1: in there.

518
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of violence, but that just

519
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 2: kept you at the adrenaline pumped. So the more violence

520
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 2: that you experienced, you know there was a distraction as well.

521
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 1: Did you get addicted to that in a strange sort

522
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:40,120
Speaker 1: of weight?

523
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 2: I wasn't so much on edge because I was one

524
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 2: of the alphas, but yeah, I supposed to a degree.

525
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 2: I mean definitely, you don't get time to just relax.

526
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 2: From the time that door opens to the time it shuts,

527
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 2: you're on your toes. I just don't know where it's

528
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,400
Speaker 2: going to come from and who's going to have a crack,

529
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 2: And there's plenty that are willing.

530
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, but as you said, it doesn't have to be

531
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 1: the big bloke. It can be the stranger, little dude

532
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 1: in the in the corner that's got the ship.

533
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 2: But I know one of the most hectic, dangerous killers

534
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 2: in the country. It was probably sixty kilos. But they

535
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 2: would catch your fucking head off in front of your wife,

536
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 2: then do.

537
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:24,399
Speaker 1: Her that they make the dangerous you had. You're in

538
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 1: there with your brother you're laid to spend time with

539
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 1: your brother, or did they separate you.

540
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 2: They tried to separate us a couple of times, but

541
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 2: they didn't add well for them. They couldn't separate us,

542
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 2: so we spent it all together. They separated it just

543
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 2: look we bashed screws. We did it in court. We

544
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 2: had problems with him in the prison. We've been wrong

545
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 2: with it in prison. We weren't to be fucked around

546
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 2: with it. Especially my brother. He's a psychopath, like he's

547
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,360
Speaker 2: not less, not an actual psychopath, but he's a nut job.

548
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 1: He doesn't doesn't well, he doesn't back down when you're

549
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: at your trial or you're hearing where he builded the

550
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: corrective services officer.

551
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,880
Speaker 2: Or that was my fault. I shouldn't have told him.

552
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: That's when you wanted to talk to your mum or something.

553
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 2: So they during the case and we stopped the first time,

554
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 2: and we're walking past my parents, and of course they're

555
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 2: going to stop and console its see how you're okay, mom?

556
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 2: All good? You don't need to be you go home.

557
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 2: This fucking dog put his and I was my brother

558
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 2: was between him and me. He put his arm around

559
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 2: and gave me a little shove and said kept going,

560
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 2: which obviously I didn't. But I found that humiliating and

561
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 2: embarrassing in front of my mum. So I was gonna

562
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 2: have a crack when we got at the back. But

563
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:28,400
Speaker 2: soon as we got at the back is all, are

564
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 2: you okay? Guys? You need anything like you know? It's

565
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,239
Speaker 2: tough turtle change. So we let it go from it

566
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 2: and I said to my brother, did you see where

567
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 2: they cant did? He goes yes, and if you touched

568
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 2: me again and knock him out? Obviously I didn't stay

569
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 2: for a joke, so purposely the second time around, I've stopped.

570
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 2: He went to put his arm past my brother. I

571
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 2: didn't even get a touch on me. I mean he

572
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 2: got there, but my brother was so quick he just

573
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 2: hit him. That fucking hard mate flew over the solicitor's desk.

574
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 2: Paper went everywhere, and there was probably be in thirty

575
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 2: coppers there. They didn't even come in do own direction.

576
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 2: We had to lock ourselves up, so we spent a

577
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 2: couple minutes talking to mum ago and went out the

578
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,880
Speaker 2: back expecting to punch on with the screws. That didn't

579
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:07,360
Speaker 2: happen either.

580
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: I would have expected that was all punch on with

581
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 1: the Copps that were there and surprising everyone's scared.

582
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 2: I mean, look, we weren't shy. You're looking at a

583
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 2: sixty year old man. Now, I was twenty four back then.

584
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 2: You know all I did was fight.

585
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: Okay, So you're a complex character, an interesting character, and

586
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: I do. And I mentioned in the start with your book,

587
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: I was trying to sell what we do on the

588
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,360
Speaker 1: podcast and talk about redemption, and you checked me and said,

589
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,120
Speaker 1: this is not a redemption story. And I accept that

590
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: this is your story and you live by your moral code.

591
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 1: So I'm finding it interesting having a chat with you. Now.

592
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 1: There's stuff in the preface for your book written by yeah,

593
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 1: none other than Gregory David Roberts, the author of Shanta ramp.

594
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 1: I got to say, I've tried to get him on

595
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm going to hit you up to say

596
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: a good good word for me at the end of

597
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: it his book. I found it fascinating chann and the

598
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: one after it. But I just like he had a

599
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: real sort of zen. Yeah, could be a violent man

600
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 1: if neither be, but also had that peace side of him,

601
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: the zen side of him. How do you become a

602
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 1: mate with him?

603
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 2: We were both incarcerated for five years ago, both of

604
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 2: us on the end of our sentences, and I always

605
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 2: gravitated to people that were smarter or better than me,

606
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 2: but I could get something out of, like some sort

607
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 2: of stimulation. And he was the smartest bloke in the system,

608
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 2: literally the smartest, so I always I used to annoy him,

609
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 2: but he liked me. Fortunately, So towards the end of

610
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 2: the sentence, they were closing pantries down. So we had

611
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 2: like two hundred prisoners in D Division and we were

612
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 2: the only long terms. There was like a handful of

613
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 2: long terms and summer and you got two hundred prisoners

614
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,880
Speaker 2: sharing one fridge with a little freezer, and your water

615
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 2: often got stolen. So my brother, under the cover of daylight,

616
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 2: went and stole the screws fridge, put a luck on it,

617
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 2: put outside my cell and his cell, so we shared

618
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 2: that with me. Greg Ali say, you know, we stuck together.

619
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 2: He used to follow me around tooled up because we're

620
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 2: at war. It's just a beautiful bloke. But we jeled

621
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 2: and when we got out, he's the only person from prison.

622
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 2: I had some good friends in prison, but I mean

623
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,199
Speaker 2: I chose just to move on because they're not going

624
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 2: to move on. I knew Greg was moving on. I

625
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 2: was that was my journey. My journey at that ended.

626
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 2: Now it's my new path. So we worked together. When

627
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 2: I had opportunities that suited him, he jump on as well,

628
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 2: and we had a few laughs and we supported each other. Well.

629
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 1: The fact that then I read his book I think

630
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: when it first came out, so years and years ago,

631
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: and it really resonated with me that, Okay, you can

632
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 1: have a violent man, but there was a philosophy behind

633
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: what he was doing, and you know, we all fuck up,

634
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: but you get on with life and resilience and all that.

635
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: So yeah, I just found it impressive. So I can

636
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: imagine and I've seen him, seen him talk, and I

637
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: can imagine it would have been a good influence on

638
00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: you inside. Okay, well, we got sidetracked the one one

639
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about you, but I'm fascinated by

640
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: his life as well. But in the preface for your book,

641
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: he's described you in a lot of ways, and I

642
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: want to just break it down because what I want

643
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 1: to do on the podcast, we're not going to deep

644
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: dive into you committed this crime, you did this, or

645
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 1: did that? But I want to find out the type

646
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: of person you are because I'm seeing you come up

647
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: come on with saying, well this is me. So let's

648
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: you're taking you jack with a fuck. We're getting serious now. Okay,

649
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,479
Speaker 1: these are a couple of things. And this was written

650
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: by Greg So he describes you as charismatic, the type

651
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: that a room turns to sea you. I got to say,

652
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: you've got to swagger about you. Has that always been.

653
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 2: I haven't noticed it. I know a room does pay attention, though,

654
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 2: I mean your command attention. You mean you can do

655
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 2: it. It's just a personality, and sometimes your personality is reflected

656
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 2: by your physical personality. You know, some some men are

657
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 2: big but you just don't notice. Other men are medium sized,

658
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 2: but they have a presence about them. I guess I

659
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 2: have a little presence.

660
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: And energy that comes out. Yeah, okay, accept that charming

661
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: can be. I get the sense that people like you

662
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: can turn turn the charm on.

663
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 2: Yeah I don't. I don't know anyone that doesn't like me,

664
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 2: and if I find out, I'm going to do my

665
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 2: best to get them to turn them. Talk about this anger, bro.

666
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: Yeah okay, I like it. Well you've wrecked it. For

667
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: the next one. Confident. This is why Greg describes it.

668
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: You confident in the way of a man who knows

669
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: how the fight will and doesn't mind doing it. I

670
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: get that there is something and you would have seen

671
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: it in prison. I saw it on the streets and

672
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: stuff as a cop. There's a calmness that comes with

673
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: someone that can look after themselves and doesn't have to

674
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: have to put it out there.

675
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 2: To lose your temper. Yeah, you need to be aggressive,

676
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 2: get on with it.

677
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: Because you were saying you were seen the blokes. I've

678
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: seen him in life, but I've also seen it when

679
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: I was in the cops. There's a lot of bravado there,

680
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: but it's almost fear like they've pumped themselves up big.

681
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 2: So yeah, there's a lot of that that you're to

682
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 2: watch out for. The salent ones, quiet ones that enjoy it.

683
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 2: But I mean there's also loud crazies. They can do

684
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 2: the job, so let's not discount them. Yeah.

685
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I know that I reckon one of the

686
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: most chilling responses to someone if they want to fight you,

687
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: I love fighting. They don't know where they go from there, Okay.

688
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: A diplomat preferring to compromise over confrontation. Now this steered

689
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: a lot of your career, the consultancy that we'll talk about.

690
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: But talk us through that. What Greg saw about you

691
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: being the diplomat, Well.

692
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 2: Look, often with situations where you're in the middle, you

693
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,959
Speaker 2: can go either way. You can just hurt somebody and

694
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 2: resolve it well, you can make a little sacrifice, a

695
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 2: bit of give and take and resolve with diplomatically. It

696
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 2: doesn't have to come down to violence of aggression. If

697
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 2: you can work out another way, it's always the best

698
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 2: in my view, it's always the best option.

699
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: I agree. I agree with that, but I think you've

700
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: got to give if we're arguing, if I'm still going

701
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: at you, if I give a little bit to you

702
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: or don't embarrass you in front of someone, it's easy

703
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: to back down. I use the example, and I think

704
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: I've used it before on the podcast. Very basic example.

705
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: As a cop early days in uniform, you go into

706
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: a pub. You've been called there because someone won't leave

707
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: the pub. You walk in there and you've got the

708
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: authority to take the person out, but he's got all

709
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: his mates there, And I've seen good cops diffuse the

710
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: situation this way. By walking in there. You're carrying on

711
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: like a clown in the pub, refusing the loove. You've

712
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: got your mates here egging you on, and the cop

713
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: just says, look, Jay, we could punch on, but you

714
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: probably win, but you're going to get arrested anyway. Is

715
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: it all right? If you walk out? You then look

716
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: back at your mates. You've kept your reputation intact, you

717
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: haven't back down, and a way of diffusing the situation.

718
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot that could prevent a lot

719
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: of shit that goes down, like you're talking the nightclubs,

720
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: the fights that if people could just adopt that approach.

721
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 2: I didn't have that approach.

722
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: What the approach did you have it?

723
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 2: I'm doing it totally different thing in the pubs and

724
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 2: would square off straight away, have my hands in front

725
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 2: of me, dude, as soon as they finished straight on

726
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 2: the chin? Mate, Yeah, we drag them out.

727
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: We can't do that.

728
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 2: We didn't give them. We didn't give them the opportunity

729
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 2: to throw one.

730
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: Did they ever get you in trouble?

731
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 2: No, it's legal, man. We had three coppers walked through

732
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 2: my club I was working at, had three clubs in it.

733
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 2: Three off duty police officers walked past my brother and

734
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 2: made some remarks or a day ago, and he came

735
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: around because we had a tunnel through to me and said,

736
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 2: these fucking coppers and they happened to walking across the street,

737
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 2: so we attacked them, kicked the ship out of them.

738
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 2: One was trying to call under a car to get away.

739
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 2: My brother's dragging that boy's leg, jumped on the bottom

740
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 2: of the car and jumped on him. Nothing happened, bro.

741
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 2: We used to punch on. The police would block off

742
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 2: the streets and let us go at it.

743
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: This is what the eighties over in perform Melbourne.

744
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 2: Yeah nothing you now you used to tell someone the

745
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 2: fun out to take a photo and call the police.

746
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: Well it's a different world now. You wouldn't get away

747
00:33:58,720 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: of that now.

748
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 2: But actually off the PlayStation was up the right in Buzswick. Look,

749
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 2: I've heard about it.

750
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 1: Nothing I've seen I've seen off Judy cops. I've seen

751
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: them in the clubs and that they can be pains

752
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 1: in the arts, not all of them, like we're just

753
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: I don't want to brand it. But yeah, I understand

754
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: what you're saying.

755
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 2: There's all fun games back then, I mean, no one

756
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 2: really got seriously hurt, you know, not really bad, just

757
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 2: took their lumps. Yeah, you just take it on the gin.

758
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 2: I got smashed a few times. Just take it on

759
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 2: the gin, get up and dust up and keep going.

760
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 2: It's like, just like, what's that happens on the foot field?

761
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 2: Stays on the footy field?

762
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: Used to It doesn't any It doesn't anymore.

763
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 2: At fucking crowdbabies, the generation of crwdbabies. Fat good luck

764
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 2: if we go to war.

765
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 1: I said that the introduction, we're going to get it real,

766
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,320
Speaker 1: and we're getting it real from you. So I appreciate that.

767
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 1: I want to hear. This is getting an insight in

768
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 1: your thinking. I like it. Now you've been described as

769
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: a leader, a man that hard men will follow in

770
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 1: the battle and more impressively into peace. So play on that.

771
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: So leader that Okay, we'll back you up. But also no,

772
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: we're not going to fight here. Is that how you

773
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: see your lived your life?

774
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 2: But when I lead, I led from the front of

775
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 2: the back. So I wouldn't ask anyone to do anything

776
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 2: that I won't personally do. In fact, I probably do

777
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 2: it myself, and all my people knew that. So I

778
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 2: would never compromise anyone else's safety. I always was careful

779
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 2: to look after people, not to get it in trouble.

780
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 2: You know, that was respected and appreciated. So I'm a

781
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 2: sensible leader, Okay.

782
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 1: Not led by ego. Feeding your own Again.

783
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 2: Even in the boy club, I don't know, we'll get

784
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 2: you in trouble.

785
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 1: You made a point there, and I'm interested in this because, yeah,

786
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 1: we talk management leadership, but if we talk in the

787
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: world that you lived in, you wouldn't have anyone do

788
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: anything that you wouldn't do yourself. I've had a lot

789
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 1: of people over the years and without naming names, clubs

790
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 1: or whatever, get the shits that, yeah, we're taking the

791
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: risks and people are reaping the rewards. That's not the

792
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: way you you operated. No, definitely authentic, And I'll just

793
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: break it down what Greg said here, backing up the

794
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 1: word authentic because he's the same man on the inside

795
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: and I put in brackets here. We're talking about in

796
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: jail with the same cheeky twinkle in his eye on

797
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 1: the outside. There's some people that if I'm interpreted in

798
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 1: that right, there's people that go inside and they're they're

799
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 1: different to who they are outside outside. They could be

800
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: the big man. They go in there and.

801
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Well they can running back

802
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 2: on the outside getting jail and they fucking crumble. I've

803
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 2: seen it. But look also people succumb to the system,

804
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 2: they become as setutionalized and they become dependent upon the system.

805
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,240
Speaker 2: So with my brother and I, we Maine tander independens

806
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 2: and independence in their individuality. We wouldn't even wear their

807
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 2: fucking clothes. Mate, it seemed like four food like, so

808
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 2: we had our own fire pants. The screws bought him

809
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 2: in for us. We had a couple of friendly screws.

810
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 2: If it wasn't contraband you know, they get bringing t shirts, jeans, clothes,

811
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 2: box things that he couldn't access, and five pans. My brother,

812
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 2: the beauty of him made is no one can roar

813
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 2: it better than him. So he would get a delivery

814
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 2: every Saturday from the kitchen on the tractor, a box

815
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 2: full of everything in the kitchen had we had. So

816
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 2: we just cooked our own food whatever we had, whatever

817
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 2: we need. We had tuna, past rice, oil, chips, vegetables, eggs,

818
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 2: we had albro and we had a canteen. So we

819
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 2: buy other stuff as well.

820
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: So you're eating healthy in there.

821
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 2: We cooked our own food, jail food shit, and we

822
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 2: had a microabe in ourselves. We took the screws. We

823
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 2: did everything to just run our own race. There was

824
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 2: no gray, It's black and white. We hated them and

825
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 2: expressed it daily, and they hated us and expressed it daily.

826
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 2: And then we got almost routing the system and we

827
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 2: wrote it really well and we I mean, this is

828
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 2: for us. ChIL wasn't difficult for us because we did

829
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 2: our own jail.

830
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,439
Speaker 1: So when yeah, the line between the blue and the grain,

831
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: that was definitely the case for you and your brother,

832
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: No question. They're doing prison a little bit differently. Interested

833
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 1: why we're talking on that subject now Mcquarie Correctional Center

834
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: in New South wal they're up in Wellington. They're trying

835
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 1: a new style where they're breaking down it's not so

836
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: much the division maximum security prison. People going in, they're

837
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: getting rewards up front. You misbehave you get the rewards

838
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 1: taken away from you're living in the dorm, twenty five

839
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: floks in one dorm, more freedom, study and all that.

840
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: You went in the system and that didn't break you.

841
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: You just stood your ground. Do you see benefits in

842
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: the system that I just relaying there.

843
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 2: Or do you hate that?

844
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: You hate it?

845
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 2: I would hate that, Bro. I did most of my

846
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 2: jailing Petridge, the old bluestone Petridge. I used to have

847
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 2: a you know, the bay Maries. Yeah, the heater. That

848
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 2: was my little heater. Weigh it up somehow. The little

849
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 2: fan had my fridge in my ice box, a little

850
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 2: bluestone cell. Kate. There was a fucking cage and it

851
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: was jail, and you did jail, Bro. This bullshit they're

852
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 2: hanging Daniel and Karats in front of you. Fuck all

853
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 2: that shit. We've got nothing, we wanted nothing.

854
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: Okay, I appreciate you're a hard ass, except that. Can

855
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,359
Speaker 1: you see the benefits the benefits for the community if

856
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: they go If they go in there like you come out,

857
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 1: you've kept your moral compass. But jail fucks people up?

858
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: Can you see out there? Not talking you individually, I'm

859
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,720
Speaker 1: talking generally. If people come in and go out better people,

860
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: there has to be a benefit. Surely you see that.

861
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:34,839
Speaker 2: Why is it making them better?

862
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 1: Well? They can adapt to society. They're not bridging up

863
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: every time they walk down the street and end up

864
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 1: back inside.

865
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 2: Are you talking about it? You're talking about the fucking

866
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 2: short terms. The corporates, the pedophiles, the rapists. There the

867
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 2: only comes to get the fucking benefits. The hard criminals

868
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 2: don't get that ship.

869
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: Well, I can say that I've seen it and they do.

870
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: And these are some lifers in this. They're trying it out.

871
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: That it's a new system. I went inside last year

872
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: and they're trying it out. So that's what I'm asking you.

873
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: I understand.

874
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 2: I understand that, I understand twenty five. In the time

875
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 2: you live with twenty five blokes, I'll kill one of them.

876
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,839
Speaker 1: Well, that's exactly what I thought would happen there. That's

877
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,479
Speaker 1: why Corrective Services invited me in to have a look.

878
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking this is going to be mayhem.

879
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 2: Were they independent selves or no?

880
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 1: No living I'm telling you they're holding hands. No, they

881
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: weren't holding relationship. They weren't holding hands and singing Kumbai h.

882
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 1: There were some hard asses in there, and people I know.

883
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 1: I know their background, I know who they are, and

884
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: the way they carry themselves, carry themselves that you drop

885
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: them in any prison and they're hard asses. They're going,

886
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: it's better we're coming out. I'm changing, okay.

887
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 2: So obviously they would know they're experiencing. I never experienced that.

888
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 2: I got nothing and it worked for me.

889
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, No, it's interesting getting your getting your take

890
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: on it. And I know the old school view is

891
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 1: fuck that, why would we buy into that? But it

892
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: seems to be working.

893
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 2: Was horrible, and that's why don't want to give it.

894
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: Okay, jail, okay.

895
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 2: So when there's opportunities, I think there's a benefit here,

896
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 2: but the downside's too severe. Thank you, but no, thank you.

897
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:11,760
Speaker 1: I can understand an argument.

898
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 2: I'm not saying un punished counts harder because it'll determ.

899
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 2: But for me, it just works for me.

900
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 1: The punishment is I would suggest as well, not just

901
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 1: surviving in the old traditional jails like you're talking about,

902
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,839
Speaker 1: but also you're taking away from your family and yeah

903
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: you haven't got that freedom. Yeah, that has to that

904
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: has to hit. But you were fortunate you got to

905
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 1: hang out with Yeah, the brother, your brother and the

906
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: Shanna Am that was fortunate. Well maybe maybe not.

907
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 2: I was lucky in the cell with informost of my jail.

908
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 2: I had to let him win chess. Otherwise you'll let

909
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 2: me go to bed.

910
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:47,359
Speaker 1: Just get going and going.

911
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 2: He's not stopping until he wins the game, so the

912
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 2: third a fourth game.

913
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 1: I let him win, all right, honest? Now honest, And

914
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 1: this is how it's been described, with the kind of

915
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 1: honesty that people call ruthless. I can see that in you.

916
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 1: I think he's now nailed. You're there. You don't what

917
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 1: you say is what you think.

918
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't pull any punches. I mean trying not

919
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 2: to be offensive, but you know, I try and be

920
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 2: you know, like, we'll got something to say, I'll say it.

921
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm saying that in you also, good son, good father,

922
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: good friends. How important do you place place? Family?

923
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 2: It's priority? That was back in the big club for me,

924
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 2: it was a family, work, then bike, you know, so

925
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 2: we didn't we didn't across those terms. So a lot

926
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 2: of people's bike first, everything our secondary, and their family

927
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:34,359
Speaker 2: is first. Bro, That's how we grew up. I love

928
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 2: my family and they love me. It's amazing.

929
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: Well you got to love the family. Yeah, okay, you

930
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 1: get out of prison. What did you hope to do

931
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: with your life when you got out?

932
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 2: I had no doubt about my capacity. I didn't have

933
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 2: any specific plans. I had materialized all different scenarios prior

934
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,479
Speaker 2: to getting out all these little success stories in my head.

935
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:03,320
Speaker 2: And you know it, when I got out of prison,

936
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 2: I was so confident and so fit and so much

937
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 2: smarter and well read that I felt like I was

938
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 2: twelve foot tall. And what I noticed is that even

939
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 2: though I was away for ten years, I thought nothing

940
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 2: had really changed. People had the same dialogue, they were

941
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 2: in the same sort of similar clothing, They're driving the

942
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:19,760
Speaker 2: same fucking cap.

943
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 1: What years was this? What you to?

944
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:22,439
Speaker 2: Ninety seven?

945
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 1: Okay?

946
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I mean not everybody, but the people that

947
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 2: I knew, I just felt had and progressed. And even

948
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 2: though I felt even though I'd been incarcerated, I'd achieved

949
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 2: so much more. So, you know, my confidence was through

950
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 2: the roof, and you know, I accomplished a lot, very

951
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:35,760
Speaker 2: very quickly.

952
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: So okay, so that's interesting. You say you're come out,

953
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: you feel twelve foot tall, you're fit, obviously, you've been

954
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: training in there, you're well read, and you're walking out. Well,

955
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: it hasn't broken me here, I am ready to take

956
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: on the world. Is that the type of lay opened

957
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:50,879
Speaker 1: the gate you walk out?

958
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:52,319
Speaker 2: What I got picked up on my girl?

959
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: How did you get a girl or did you the

960
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: girl stay by you?

961
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 2: What's and for a few girls over the years. Yeah, yeah,

962
00:43:58,440 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 2: he just made.

963
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 1: Them well, just like the bad boy.

964
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, strippers and shit, yeah, I was a stripper and

965
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 2: she picked me up and off we went went home.

966
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 2: It was great, honestly, like within a couple of days,

967
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 2: it's been like I've never left.

968
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 1: You're resilient, aren't you. Like a lot of people would

969
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 1: freaks them out. They come out the freedom and really yeah.

970
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what they do. The systems designed to

971
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 2: like when you're doing a long sentence, so for a

972
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 2: court six years. Yeah, so you do your third maximum,

973
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,399
Speaker 2: third medium minimum, and the last third you have you're

974
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 2: integrated into society. They give you the day release and

975
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 2: start with four hours eight hours and progresses to twenty

976
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 2: four so when by the time you get out of

977
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 2: the system, you know you're you re integrated a little bit.

978
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 2: We were special. So when we got to our last third,

979
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 2: they changed the rules so they wouldn't give us. They

980
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 2: wouldn't give my brother money.

981
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: Do you think that might have had something to do

982
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:49,720
Speaker 1: with your belting people?

983
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 2: And pretty much yeah, they said you can have me

984
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:54,439
Speaker 2: in the last twelve months. We got to our last

985
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 2: five months and they tell us the fuck off. The

986
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 2: last seven months. We went to a privately run prison

987
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 2: and then we were eligible for leaves.

988
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:03,399
Speaker 1: Did you get out the same time as your brother?

989
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 2: I got out two weeks later, but he wrote to

990
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 2: the parole board and said he couldn't have good consciousness

991
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 2: leave me behind. It would have a negative impact on

992
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 2: our parents, and could he please stay a bit longer.

993
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 1: How did they react today, Well, they knew.

994
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 2: What we were like. You couldn't separate us. They tried

995
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 2: to separate us a few times. We just turned it

996
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 2: on like one jar. We turned it right on, bro.

997
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: So that was that when when you say turned it on,

998
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: we're not mucking around here. It's not just your winging burned.

999
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 2: To the ground, right, We had fucking SAgs and they

1000
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 2: shit happened and they joined us back together again. We

1001
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 2: used to meet back in Pantridge when they separated us.

1002
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: If that mind me saying you would have been a

1003
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: pain in the ass, you two not really.

1004
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 2: We made our own business, bro, We didn't you with anyone.

1005
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 2: But just don't fuck around with us, that's all. Don't

1006
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 2: try and separate us aage nonsense just because some can't

1007
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 2: got iron barred. That happens so they separated. They thought

1008
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 2: that shang up my brother from Castlemaine, little dog jail ladies.

1009
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 2: And while I was locked into a certain section that

1010
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 2: you couldn't get through, but I got through. I got

1011
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 2: straight out of there and went in front of the

1012
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,959
Speaker 2: governor and put it on it. And the stupid can't said,

1013
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 2: put it in an application. Well they didn't fucking add.

1014
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 1: Well, okay, well we want to hear hear it real.

1015
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 1: We're getting it, getting it real. How are you going

1016
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 1: to get back on your feet when you got out?

1017
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 1: You got to earn a dollar or you've got to

1018
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:31,320
Speaker 1: do something. Where did you think you were going to

1019
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 1: head to?

1020
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 2: My parents? My family gave me, gave us a bit

1021
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 2: of money, mak to just give a kick a lot nothing.

1022
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 2: But then I got contacted by a company that that

1023
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 2: locate dormant companies that have assets and wealth in them.

1024
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: Talk us through that.

1025
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 2: Yes, I had one hundred andy grants sat in the

1026
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 2: company that everyone forgot about.

1027
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 1: You got that, you got the money. Yeah, so the

1028
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: first gift from give from heaven.

1029
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 2: So that was my kickstart.

1030
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 1: Okay, well look we might take a break here, Jay,

1031
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: but I think people are getting the saints and that's

1032
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: what I hope to get and with this chat, getting

1033
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 1: the sense of the type of person you are. When

1034
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 1: we come back in for part two, we're going to

1035
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: talk about your next move into the world of O mcg.

1036
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the type of negotiations you do.

1037
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: I even want to talk about your treasure hunt looking

1038
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:23,799
Speaker 1: for a sunken sunken ship. Yeah, throw that one in,

1039
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 1: and then the lead up of what happened when the

1040
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: car bomb went up, and whatever else we decide to

1041
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: talk about. But we'll be back soon. Cheers.