1 00:00:03,230 --> 00:00:06,290 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,110 Sean Aylmer: I've spoken before about the number of women on boards 3 00:00:09,110 --> 00:00:12,290 Sean Aylmer: in Australia. Major companies have been playing catch up in 4 00:00:12,289 --> 00:00:16,250 Sean Aylmer: recent years, transforming their workforce to become more representative of 5 00:00:16,250 --> 00:00:19,009 Sean Aylmer: society with a lot of attention on the board and 6 00:00:19,010 --> 00:00:23,360 Sean Aylmer: executive level. Some have introduced gender and diversity quotas, while 7 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,060 Sean Aylmer: others are offering incentives and benefits to make the workplace 8 00:00:26,070 --> 00:00:30,290 Sean Aylmer: more accessible and equitable for all. The new Board Diversity 9 00:00:30,290 --> 00:00:33,770 Sean Aylmer: Index from the Governance Institute of Australia has found a 10 00:00:33,770 --> 00:00:36,830 Sean Aylmer: 60 per cent surge, 60 per cent, in the number 11 00:00:36,830 --> 00:00:40,430 Sean Aylmer: of women on ASX 300 boards over the past five years. 12 00:00:40,610 --> 00:00:42,740 Sean Aylmer: And there's been a significant reduction in the number of 13 00:00:42,740 --> 00:00:46,290 Sean Aylmer: companies with no women on their board. Unfortunately, though, in 14 00:00:46,350 --> 00:00:49,850 Sean Aylmer: other key diversity measures, we're still dealing with glacial change. 15 00:00:50,130 --> 00:00:53,630 Sean Aylmer: Megan Motto is the CEO of the Governance Institute of Australia. Megan, 16 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:54,760 Sean Aylmer: welcome back to Fear and Greed. 17 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,040 Megan Motto: It's great to be back, Sean. Thanks for having me. 18 00:00:57,290 --> 00:01:00,290 Sean Aylmer: And you're coming with some good news. We're nowhere near there, but, 19 00:01:00,290 --> 00:01:01,880 Sean Aylmer: you know, 60 per cent, that's better. 20 00:01:02,300 --> 00:01:04,850 Megan Motto: Well, yeah. And I think that that number, 60 per 21 00:01:04,850 --> 00:01:07,640 Megan Motto: cent has to be held in context, of course, because 22 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,270 Megan Motto: that 60 per cent is getting us closer to parity, although, 23 00:01:11,270 --> 00:01:14,720 Megan Motto: as you said, we're nowhere near there yet. We have 24 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:18,110 Megan Motto: hit over that magic 30 per cent critical mass mark 25 00:01:18,290 --> 00:01:21,860 Megan Motto: on the top 300 boards in aggregate. Of course, there 26 00:01:21,860 --> 00:01:24,800 Megan Motto: are some boards that are still laggards and have, in fact, 27 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,830 Megan Motto: no women. But we are certainly closing that gap. And 28 00:01:27,830 --> 00:01:30,740 Megan Motto: that's really great news. It's really good news on the 29 00:01:30,740 --> 00:01:31,370 Megan Motto: gender front. 30 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,179 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So, the Board Diversity Index puts five types of diversity 31 00:01:35,180 --> 00:01:37,729 Sean Aylmer: under the microscope. So can you just run me through 32 00:01:37,730 --> 00:01:39,890 Sean Aylmer: the five and why they're part of the report? 33 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,090 Megan Motto: Sure. So this is a really comprehensive report in partnership 34 00:01:44,090 --> 00:01:47,660 Megan Motto: with Watermark Search International. It looks at their top 300 35 00:01:48,110 --> 00:01:51,950 Megan Motto: ASX listed companies and therefore covers around two thousand board seats. 36 00:01:52,220 --> 00:01:54,560 Megan Motto: And we look at the five types of diversity and, 37 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,140 Megan Motto: of course, gender that we've mentioned. But we also look 38 00:01:57,140 --> 00:02:03,050 Megan Motto: at cultural background skills, age and tenure and independence, which 39 00:02:03,050 --> 00:02:06,260 Megan Motto: are quite important. And of course, why do we look 40 00:02:06,260 --> 00:02:08,630 Megan Motto: beyond gender? Of course, we know that gender is an 41 00:02:08,630 --> 00:02:11,019 Megan Motto: issue and it's we're not there yet, as we mentioned. 42 00:02:11,030 --> 00:02:13,490 Megan Motto: So we still are looking and keeping a close eye 43 00:02:13,490 --> 00:02:17,120 Megan Motto: on that. But we measure these other areas of diversity 44 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,730 Megan Motto: because we know that diverse boards make better decisions. And 45 00:02:19,730 --> 00:02:22,610 Megan Motto: it's not just one aspect of diversity we're looking at. 46 00:02:22,790 --> 00:02:25,790 Megan Motto: It's a range of different aspects. In terms of why 47 00:02:25,790 --> 00:02:29,840 Megan Motto: those particular five are measured, it's, of course, not an 48 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,630 Megan Motto: exhaustive list. And there are things that we'd like to 49 00:02:32,630 --> 00:02:35,180 Megan Motto: potentially see on there that aren't there at the moment, like, 50 00:02:35,180 --> 00:02:38,660 Megan Motto: for example, indigenous participation. But it does give us a 51 00:02:38,660 --> 00:02:42,170 Megan Motto: breadth of data that allows a meaningful analysis of where 52 00:02:42,169 --> 00:02:46,850 Megan Motto: corporate Australia currently sits with diversity and what else needs 53 00:02:46,850 --> 00:02:48,889 Megan Motto: to be done. And of course, they are also metrics 54 00:02:48,889 --> 00:02:52,640 Megan Motto: that can be verifiably measured and that's important for a 55 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:54,200 Megan Motto: research study of this kind. 56 00:02:54,570 --> 00:02:56,870 Sean Aylmer: OK, so let's start with gender because it is kind 57 00:02:56,870 --> 00:02:59,510 Sean Aylmer: of the most public one. Just how much of our 58 00:02:59,510 --> 00:03:02,750 Sean Aylmer: major companies improved on closing the gender gap and whereabouts 59 00:03:03,050 --> 00:03:05,160 Sean Aylmer: is it happening best and where is it happening worst? 60 00:03:05,690 --> 00:03:10,790 Megan Motto: Look, as I said, the top 300 companies in aggregate are certainly 61 00:03:10,790 --> 00:03:13,400 Megan Motto: moving in the right direction. We've seen major change in 62 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,070 Megan Motto: the last five years in this area and really pleasingly, 63 00:03:16,070 --> 00:03:19,010 Megan Motto: we've seen that change continue over the last 18 months. 64 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,970 Megan Motto: We had suspicions, I think, that COVID might slow down 65 00:03:22,970 --> 00:03:25,700 Megan Motto: the momentum, but it doesn't appear to have done so. 66 00:03:25,730 --> 00:03:29,140 Megan Motto: So that's really good news as well. As we mentioned before, 67 00:03:29,180 --> 00:03:31,460 Megan Motto: almost 60 per cent increase of the number of women 68 00:03:31,460 --> 00:03:34,730 Megan Motto: going on to boards in the last five years. And 69 00:03:34,730 --> 00:03:37,550 Megan Motto: that means that the number of boards with that magic, 70 00:03:37,550 --> 00:03:41,090 Megan Motto: 30 per cent critical margin has tripled up to 161 71 00:03:41,990 --> 00:03:47,450 Megan Motto: in 2021 down from fifty-four in 2016. And as I 72 00:03:47,450 --> 00:03:50,270 Megan Motto: said before, the boards that we have with no women 73 00:03:50,270 --> 00:03:52,490 Megan Motto: at all on the boards has decreased in the same 74 00:03:52,490 --> 00:03:55,760 Megan Motto: time period. It used to be 59 in 2016 and we're 75 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:57,890 Megan Motto: now down to 14. I think the fact that we've 76 00:03:57,890 --> 00:04:02,240 Megan Motto: still got 14 in 2021 is crazy to me. Why 77 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,760 Megan Motto: we wouldn't want to be utilising 50 per cent of 78 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:07,760 Megan Motto: the asset pool of the nation in terms of the 79 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,430 Megan Motto: thinking around the board table? But there we are, but 80 00:04:10,430 --> 00:04:11,450 Megan Motto: we have made great strides. 81 00:04:11,870 --> 00:04:14,600 Sean Aylmer: Is there a greater diversity within gender? So of the 82 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:16,400 Sean Aylmer: women that are sitting on the boards because there used 83 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,489 Sean Aylmer: to be an argument that rightly or wrongly, there was 84 00:04:19,490 --> 00:04:22,790 Sean Aylmer: a limited pool of women willing to sit on boards, 85 00:04:22,850 --> 00:04:25,659 Sean Aylmer: not able but willing to sit on boards. Has that increased? 86 00:04:26,180 --> 00:04:29,150 Megan Motto: Yes, it has increased. And the phenomenon that you're talking 87 00:04:29,150 --> 00:04:32,510 Megan Motto: about is colloquially termed the golden skirts phenomenon. 88 00:04:32,990 --> 00:04:33,470 Sean Aylmer: Oh, right. 89 00:04:33,470 --> 00:04:35,840 Megan Motto: And it means that a small pool of women take up 90 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:40,220 Megan Motto: a large proportion of the available board seats. What we're 91 00:04:40,220 --> 00:04:44,570 Megan Motto: seeing is a lot more talent come through the pipeline now, 92 00:04:44,570 --> 00:04:47,690 Megan Motto: which is just fantastic. And what that tells us is 93 00:04:47,690 --> 00:04:50,630 Megan Motto: that the argument that there weren't enough women who had 94 00:04:50,630 --> 00:04:54,290 Megan Motto: held CEO positions or had merit to sit on boards 95 00:04:54,290 --> 00:04:57,589 Megan Motto: and therefore targets or quotas were a bad idea because 96 00:04:57,589 --> 00:05:00,619 Megan Motto: we would somehow be promoting people that were not meritorious, 97 00:05:00,950 --> 00:05:04,320 Megan Motto: really falls aside, because what it tells us is when we 98 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,310 Megan Motto: actually open our eyes and look a little bit harder, 99 00:05:07,500 --> 00:05:09,870 Megan Motto: there are in fact a huge pool of women that 100 00:05:09,870 --> 00:05:12,150 Megan Motto: are ready, willing and able to make a really valuable 101 00:05:12,150 --> 00:05:13,779 Megan Motto: contribution in Australia's boardrooms. 102 00:05:14,100 --> 00:05:17,010 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, I mean, Telstra put a younger woman on the 103 00:05:17,010 --> 00:05:19,230 Sean Aylmer: board in recent times, and that was sort of thinking 104 00:05:19,230 --> 00:05:23,460 Sean Aylmer: outside the square. It certainly seems that companies and directors 105 00:05:23,460 --> 00:05:26,290 Sean Aylmer: and particularly chairs are looking harder for people. 106 00:05:26,820 --> 00:05:29,400 Megan Motto: That's right. And one of the reasons we've partnered with 107 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,279 Megan Motto: Watermark is that's the trend that the recruitment industry is seeing. 108 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,760 Megan Motto: They are being challenged by boards around the country to 109 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,570 Megan Motto: present shortlists of candidates that are offering the sorts of 110 00:05:39,570 --> 00:05:42,529 Megan Motto: diversity that boards want to see reflected in the boardroom. 111 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:44,760 Megan Motto: And that means that they've had to widen their own 112 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:45,450 Megan Motto: pools as well. 113 00:05:46,050 --> 00:05:47,930 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Megan. We'll be back in a minute. 114 00:05:52,870 --> 00:05:55,390 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Megan Motto, CEO of the 115 00:05:55,390 --> 00:05:58,779 Sean Aylmer: Governance Institute of Australia. We spoke to the Law Society of 116 00:05:58,779 --> 00:06:01,510 Sean Aylmer: New South Wales recently, Sonja Stewart, the CEO. And for 117 00:06:01,510 --> 00:06:03,460 Sean Aylmer: the first time, women now make up more than 50 118 00:06:03,460 --> 00:06:06,970 Sean Aylmer: per cent of the legal profession, albeit the bias is 119 00:06:06,970 --> 00:06:09,550 Sean Aylmer: certainly towards the bottom end of the pay scale rather 120 00:06:09,550 --> 00:06:11,890 Sean Aylmer: than the top end of the pay scale. But that 121 00:06:11,890 --> 00:06:14,050 Sean Aylmer: must be promising when you see that sort of thing. 122 00:06:14,740 --> 00:06:19,929 Megan Motto: It definitely is promising, although the pipeline argument has been 123 00:06:19,930 --> 00:06:24,550 Megan Motto: around for a long time and the pipeline theory, i.e. 124 00:06:24,610 --> 00:06:26,380 Megan Motto: that when you have a bigger pool at the bottom, 125 00:06:26,380 --> 00:06:29,830 Megan Motto: it'll naturally progress through to the top. What we've seen in 126 00:06:29,830 --> 00:06:33,130 Megan Motto: other professions, such as architecture in particular, but also veterinary 127 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,190 Megan Motto: science and some of the medical professions, is that doesn't 128 00:06:36,190 --> 00:06:41,440 Megan Motto: necessarily flow through without intervention re practices to get women 129 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:46,420 Megan Motto: into those senior ranks. So there definitely are structural biases 130 00:06:46,420 --> 00:06:50,800 Megan Motto: within organisations. There's unconscious bias within organisations, but there's also 131 00:06:50,980 --> 00:06:55,390 Megan Motto: structural biases that do prevent women from getting to the top. 132 00:06:55,540 --> 00:06:58,030 Megan Motto: And those need to be tackled even when you've got 133 00:06:58,029 --> 00:07:01,270 Megan Motto: a large pipeline at the bottom. So it's great news 134 00:07:01,270 --> 00:07:04,240 Megan Motto: because it means that the framework is there, that the 135 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,480 Megan Motto: pool is there, but the profession still need to work 136 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:09,790 Megan Motto: hard to remove those structural impediments. 137 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,270 Sean Aylmer: What about cultural background is another diversity factor? It seems 138 00:07:13,270 --> 00:07:14,950 Sean Aylmer: that we're still predominantly white. 139 00:07:15,370 --> 00:07:20,560 Megan Motto: Indeed. And unfortunately and disappointingly, this is where we are 140 00:07:20,590 --> 00:07:24,430 Megan Motto: not moving as fast at all. In fact, 90 per 141 00:07:24,430 --> 00:07:27,790 Megan Motto: cent of directors are still of Anglo, Celtic or European 142 00:07:27,790 --> 00:07:31,690 Megan Motto: background and Australian born. So we're a long way off 143 00:07:31,690 --> 00:07:34,960 Megan Motto: where we need to be. And on the current trajectory, 144 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,740 Megan Motto: it's going to take 18 years for boardrooms to be 145 00:07:38,740 --> 00:07:42,250 Megan Motto: reflective of Australia's cultural diversity. And of course, it's one 146 00:07:42,250 --> 00:07:45,190 Megan Motto: of the things that makes Australia both challenging, but also 147 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:50,350 Megan Motto: great is our cultural diversity. And that's the employees that 148 00:07:50,350 --> 00:07:52,750 Megan Motto: we have in our businesses. It's the customers we serve 149 00:07:52,750 --> 00:07:54,700 Megan Motto: and the boardrooms need to be reflective of that. 150 00:07:54,980 --> 00:07:57,340 Sean Aylmer: Another one of those factors is age. And in Bridget Loudon, 151 00:07:57,670 --> 00:08:00,610 Sean Aylmer: of course, is the Telstra director and she's a 32-year-old 152 00:08:01,030 --> 00:08:03,040 Sean Aylmer: and she's on the board of Telstra, which is wonderful 153 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,060 Sean Aylmer: to see someone so young. She's CEO of Expert360, which 154 00:08:07,060 --> 00:08:12,040 Sean Aylmer: has been an incredibly successful tech company. How do boards get younger people? 155 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:14,650 Sean Aylmer: Not everyone is Bridget Loudon. In fact, there are very 156 00:08:14,650 --> 00:08:17,470 Sean Aylmer: few Bridget Loudon's out there at that age, I suspect. 157 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:19,240 Sean Aylmer: How do you get more younger people on the board? 158 00:08:19,690 --> 00:08:23,650 Megan Motto: Indeed. Indeed. And look, one of the things that and 159 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,090 Megan Motto: this is where the survey crosses over the different territory, 160 00:08:27,610 --> 00:08:30,220 Megan Motto: one of the interesting phenomenons that we've seen is with 161 00:08:30,220 --> 00:08:33,790 Megan Motto: more women coming onto the board and they're more educated, 162 00:08:33,790 --> 00:08:37,900 Megan Motto: particularly in areas of governance. So it's really important that 163 00:08:37,900 --> 00:08:42,100 Megan Motto: when we're looking at bringing younger people onto the board, 164 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,880 Megan Motto: that we're equipping them with the skills to not be 165 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,120 Megan Motto: competent in their technical fields because many people are incredibly 166 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:53,309 Megan Motto: competent in their technical fields by their 20s, 30s, 40s, 167 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,790 Megan Motto: particularly in digital and entrepreneurship and things like that. But 168 00:08:57,790 --> 00:09:00,370 Megan Motto: we do need to make sure that they are also 169 00:09:00,370 --> 00:09:05,530 Megan Motto: similarly equipped with the financial, legal framework skills that they 170 00:09:05,530 --> 00:09:10,570 Megan Motto: need to govern effectively organisations and operate at that level. 171 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:15,160 Megan Motto: So it's definitely once again, broadening the eyes, taking the 172 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:17,920 Megan Motto: blinkers off and looking at the broader horizons and looking 173 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:22,510 Megan Motto: down at talent within organisations and talent potential with organisations. 174 00:09:22,510 --> 00:09:25,360 Megan Motto: But it's also about then equipping those people so that 175 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,810 Megan Motto: they are feeling fully equipped and not like second class 176 00:09:28,809 --> 00:09:31,150 Megan Motto: citizens in the boardroom, because the last thing that we 177 00:09:31,150 --> 00:09:34,780 Megan Motto: want is the token young person who is then ineffective 178 00:09:34,780 --> 00:09:37,660 Megan Motto: as an experiment. And when they come off the board, 179 00:09:37,660 --> 00:09:39,640 Megan Motto: the board says, well, that wasn't very good. The person 180 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,219 Megan Motto: didn't make a very good contribution, and that was because 181 00:09:42,220 --> 00:09:45,000 Megan Motto: they were marginalised, because they weren't set up for success. 182 00:09:45,010 --> 00:09:47,590 Sean Aylmer: So this is kind of falls into the skills category 183 00:09:47,590 --> 00:09:50,320 Sean Aylmer: as well. In terms of the index, what skills do 184 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,660 Sean Aylmer: you need? Is it governance skills, which I'm sure you 185 00:09:52,660 --> 00:09:55,330 Sean Aylmer: can go to the Governance Institute and learn? Is it 186 00:09:55,330 --> 00:09:58,150 Sean Aylmer: technical schools? What are the skills that board member needs? 187 00:09:58,850 --> 00:10:00,970 Megan Motto: Indeed, and it's a combination of a range of things 188 00:10:00,970 --> 00:10:04,030 Megan Motto: is the answer, of course. So there's definitely a level 189 00:10:04,030 --> 00:10:07,720 Megan Motto: of technical skill and governance skill. We do see boards 190 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:12,500 Megan Motto: still very heavily weighted with accounting, finance skills, banking and 191 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,570 Megan Motto: so on. But we also see boards pretty heavily dominated 192 00:10:16,570 --> 00:10:20,559 Megan Motto: by legal practitioners as well, bringing legal skills into the boardroom. 193 00:10:20,950 --> 00:10:23,470 Megan Motto: But it's about a lot more than that these days. 194 00:10:23,470 --> 00:10:28,709 Megan Motto: We need, for example, directors that have deep customer service skills. 195 00:10:29,170 --> 00:10:32,260 Megan Motto: We know that customer-centricity is one of the key performance 196 00:10:32,260 --> 00:10:36,250 Megan Motto: indicators for boards in the current environment. So those customer 197 00:10:36,250 --> 00:10:41,829 Megan Motto: centricity skills, marketing, HR (Human Relations), being able to manage reputation, and 198 00:10:41,830 --> 00:10:44,860 Megan Motto: of course, those digital skills then traverse across all of 199 00:10:44,860 --> 00:10:48,700 Megan Motto: those areas because every part of our businesses these days 200 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:53,540 Megan Motto: is hallmarked by its touchpoint with technology. And so those cybersecurity 201 00:10:54,020 --> 00:11:00,400 Megan Motto: skills are increasingly becoming as traversive as our financial skills. 202 00:11:00,410 --> 00:11:03,080 Megan Motto: You can't just be financially literate to be a director 203 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,420 Megan Motto: these days. You need to also be digitally literate. 204 00:11:05,710 --> 00:11:09,170 Sean Aylmer: OK, then the fifth category, tenure and independence. Certainly, I mean, 205 00:11:09,170 --> 00:11:11,090 Sean Aylmer: Crown Resorts is a great example where it's run into 206 00:11:11,090 --> 00:11:14,900 Sean Aylmer: troubles on that front during recent inquiries and royal commissions. 207 00:11:15,020 --> 00:11:17,030 Sean Aylmer: How much of a problem is that for most boards? 208 00:11:17,690 --> 00:11:19,730 Megan Motto: Look, it varies from board to board. And of course, 209 00:11:19,730 --> 00:11:21,710 Megan Motto: when we look at this survey, we are looking at 210 00:11:21,860 --> 00:11:25,730 Megan Motto: fairly aggregate data across the three hundred. But there is 211 00:11:25,730 --> 00:11:30,770 Megan Motto: a recognition that tenure, independence and that refreshing of skills 212 00:11:30,770 --> 00:11:33,890 Megan Motto: on boards is good for governance, bringing fresh eyes to 213 00:11:33,890 --> 00:11:37,160 Megan Motto: the table. And longevity on the boards, once again, what 214 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,490 Megan Motto: we've seen in this study is it's more closely correlated 215 00:11:40,490 --> 00:11:44,059 Megan Motto: with male directors than it is with female directors. That's, 216 00:11:44,059 --> 00:11:45,650 Megan Motto: of course, a bit of a natural thing as more 217 00:11:45,650 --> 00:11:50,630 Megan Motto: female women are coming onto boards their tenures are shorter, of course. But 218 00:11:50,630 --> 00:11:53,360 Megan Motto: it is recognised now as one of the very important 219 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,210 Megan Motto: parts of governance is to have that refresh and have 220 00:11:56,210 --> 00:11:59,870 Megan Motto: the right balance between continuity and new sets of eyes. 221 00:12:00,140 --> 00:12:04,730 Sean Aylmer: And so presumably, when you have gender, cultural background, skills, age, tenure, diversity, 222 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:06,200 Sean Aylmer: you end up with a better business. 223 00:12:06,620 --> 00:12:09,080 Megan Motto: Indeed. And of course, it's not a tick box exercise. 224 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,630 Megan Motto: If we're going to look at all of the aspects 225 00:12:11,630 --> 00:12:16,130 Megan Motto: of diversity in the broader sense, look at indigenous diversity, look at 226 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,309 Megan Motto: sexual orientation. I mean, it's not a tick box exercise. 227 00:12:19,309 --> 00:12:22,640 Megan Motto: And we also want people that come from different sectors, 228 00:12:22,850 --> 00:12:25,340 Megan Motto: not just the sector that your business is in, but 229 00:12:25,340 --> 00:12:28,849 Megan Motto: bringing the benefits and wealth of experience from other sectors 230 00:12:28,850 --> 00:12:31,490 Megan Motto: into that boardroom. So we don't want boards that have 231 00:12:31,490 --> 00:12:33,830 Megan Motto: got 20 or 30 people so that they're ticking every 232 00:12:33,830 --> 00:12:38,600 Megan Motto: box of diversity. That's not the ideal. The ideal is 233 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:42,020 Megan Motto: boards that are sitting around the table and saying, do 234 00:12:42,020 --> 00:12:45,709 Megan Motto: we have a diverse enough view of perspectives and how 235 00:12:45,710 --> 00:12:48,590 Megan Motto: do we engage those perspectives in the boardroom? It might 236 00:12:48,590 --> 00:12:51,439 Megan Motto: partially be through the directors themselves or it might be 237 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,880 Megan Motto: through other advisory interjections that come into the boardroom to 238 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,030 Megan Motto: present different points of view. But it's really important that 239 00:12:59,030 --> 00:13:02,540 Megan Motto: boards are thinking outside of their own perspective. One of 240 00:13:02,540 --> 00:13:05,780 Megan Motto: my favourite quotes is, of course, the famous From To 241 00:13:05,780 --> 00:13:07,910 Megan Motto: Kill a Mockingbird, which is you never really understand a 242 00:13:07,910 --> 00:13:10,790 Megan Motto: man until you walk a mile in his shoes. And 243 00:13:10,790 --> 00:13:13,730 Megan Motto: I think boards are recognising that they need that diversity 244 00:13:13,730 --> 00:13:16,699 Megan Motto: of perspectives so that they can bring better decision making 245 00:13:16,700 --> 00:13:17,240 Megan Motto: to the table. 246 00:13:17,450 --> 00:13:19,220 Sean Aylmer: Wouldn't it be nice to have a few more Atticus 247 00:13:19,220 --> 00:13:20,449 Sean Aylmer: Finch's is at the board table? 248 00:13:20,670 --> 00:13:21,349 Megan Motto: It would indeed. 249 00:13:22,070 --> 00:13:23,840 Sean Aylmer: Megan, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 250 00:13:24,140 --> 00:13:25,140 Megan Motto: Thanks for having me, Sean. 251 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,979 Sean Aylmer: That was Megan Motto, CEO of the Governance Institute of Australia. 252 00:13:29,270 --> 00:13:31,100 Sean Aylmer: This is a Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join me 253 00:13:31,100 --> 00:13:33,500 Sean Aylmer: every morning for the full Fear and Greed podcast with 254 00:13:33,500 --> 00:13:35,809 Sean Aylmer: all the business news you need to know. I'm Sean Aylmer. 255 00:13:36,380 --> 00:13:37,100 Sean Aylmer: Enjoy your day.