1 00:00:05,881 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Appote production. 2 00:00:10,121 --> 00:00:14,641 Speaker 2: This podcast contains discussion of child sexual assault and psychological trauma. 3 00:00:15,041 --> 00:00:19,161 Speaker 2: It's not recommended for young people and listener discretion is advised. 4 00:00:24,161 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shann. I'm your host, 5 00:00:26,361 --> 00:00:30,641 Speaker 2: Adam Shann. Christopher Michael Crowther is a name that will 6 00:00:30,641 --> 00:00:31,921 Speaker 2: live on in infamy. 7 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:37,121 Speaker 1: Pedophile jailed for sixteen years. Christopher Michael Crowther's nineteen ninety 8 00:00:37,161 --> 00:00:40,201 Speaker 1: two conviction for stalking and attacking six young children. 9 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,201 Speaker 2: Man faces seventy one six charges, including crimes from. 10 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,681 Speaker 1: As early as nineteen seventy two. The police described him 11 00:00:47,721 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 1: as a very twisted and dangerous personality. 12 00:00:52,480 --> 00:00:55,041 Speaker 2: He died in two thousand and three at the age 13 00:00:55,081 --> 00:00:58,441 Speaker 2: of just fifty five, not a moment too soon for 14 00:00:58,481 --> 00:01:03,441 Speaker 2: possibly Australia's worst child stealer and sexual assailant. He had 15 00:01:03,481 --> 00:01:07,081 Speaker 2: his own children himself, but Crowther stalked and molested the 16 00:01:07,161 --> 00:01:11,241 Speaker 2: children of other Melbourne families from the early nineteen seventies 17 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 2: up until his death from natural causes. A judge once 18 00:01:16,121 --> 00:01:18,921 Speaker 2: described him as one of a small category of pedophiles 19 00:01:19,241 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 2: who expressed little or no remorse, denied guilt when confronted, 20 00:01:23,801 --> 00:01:27,801 Speaker 2: and refused to seek treatment. In fact, He relished the 21 00:01:27,801 --> 00:01:32,361 Speaker 2: publicity around his offending, appearing voluntarily on sixty Minutes in 22 00:01:32,441 --> 00:01:35,481 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty three to explain how easy it was to 23 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,481 Speaker 2: hunt and snatch children off the street. What a low 24 00:01:39,481 --> 00:01:43,001 Speaker 2: point for journalism that was giving such a man a platform. 25 00:01:43,321 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 2: He claimed to be reformed, but soon resumed his disgusting obsession. 26 00:01:47,881 --> 00:01:52,041 Speaker 2: He served several long prison stretches, but always returned to 27 00:01:52,081 --> 00:01:55,881 Speaker 2: his evil ways. We will never know how many children 28 00:01:55,921 --> 00:01:59,761 Speaker 2: suffered at the hands of this vile creature. In January 29 00:01:59,841 --> 00:02:03,921 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety one, one family had a lucky, almost miraculous 30 00:02:04,001 --> 00:02:07,961 Speaker 2: escape from Crowther when three year old Elise Foggerty wanted 31 00:02:08,001 --> 00:02:10,721 Speaker 2: out of her back gate and straight into the arms 32 00:02:10,841 --> 00:02:14,721 Speaker 2: of the predator. Alise and her mother, Janet have agreed 33 00:02:14,721 --> 00:02:18,121 Speaker 2: to tell that story and Welcome to the Real Crime studio, ladies. 34 00:02:18,321 --> 00:02:19,361 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you. 35 00:02:20,401 --> 00:02:23,441 Speaker 2: Alise. You didn't know about this story until you How 36 00:02:23,481 --> 00:02:24,801 Speaker 2: old were you when mom finally told you? 37 00:02:25,321 --> 00:02:26,081 Speaker 1: Oh? 38 00:02:26,121 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 3: I would have been twenty seven. 39 00:02:30,121 --> 00:02:33,641 Speaker 2: Ish, ma'am? Why did you keep it secret for so long? 40 00:02:35,361 --> 00:02:40,401 Speaker 4: That's the most horrendous day I think I've ever had. 41 00:02:42,441 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 4: I was so lucky that day that she was being 42 00:02:45,321 --> 00:02:48,441 Speaker 4: looked after even though she was running the streets and 43 00:02:48,561 --> 00:02:54,841 Speaker 4: he was after her, she was too young to remember anything. 44 00:02:57,161 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 4: And because it's been a horrendous thing for me, even 45 00:03:02,881 --> 00:03:06,361 Speaker 4: though she's okay, I didn't want to her to have 46 00:03:06,881 --> 00:03:10,521 Speaker 4: thoughts of that day. I didn't want her to suffer. 47 00:03:11,081 --> 00:03:14,041 Speaker 4: But you've had thoughts of that day ever since, ever since. 48 00:03:15,561 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 4: What comes to mind when you think about that day? 49 00:03:18,001 --> 00:03:22,561 Speaker 4: The crowd almost got a lease, Oh so so close. 50 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 4: I remember, I just come home from hospital with Jaden, 51 00:03:27,921 --> 00:03:32,441 Speaker 4: my son. He'd been since he was born in intensive 52 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:34,601 Speaker 4: care because he had a wet lung. So we'd only 53 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:39,081 Speaker 4: been home a couple of weeks. Alas was in the 54 00:03:39,121 --> 00:03:42,081 Speaker 4: backyard playing with our friend's dog, who we were minding, 55 00:03:42,121 --> 00:03:45,961 Speaker 4: and I was feeding Jack in the land room. So 56 00:03:46,001 --> 00:03:49,241 Speaker 4: she was from here, probably twice away from you are 57 00:03:49,281 --> 00:03:52,401 Speaker 4: from me, just a few meters in the backyard, and 58 00:03:52,441 --> 00:03:55,561 Speaker 4: I could had this little blow up. She was giggling, laughing. 59 00:03:55,681 --> 00:03:57,721 Speaker 4: Then the dog was playing with her. They were happy 60 00:03:57,761 --> 00:04:00,121 Speaker 4: as larry. And then you know, I got distracted by 61 00:04:00,201 --> 00:04:05,281 Speaker 4: Jack because he's only four weeks old then, and it 62 00:04:05,321 --> 00:04:10,321 Speaker 4: was really quiet in the backyard, so move my head 63 00:04:10,321 --> 00:04:13,681 Speaker 4: to have a look. So quiet, we'll get there with 64 00:04:14,081 --> 00:04:19,241 Speaker 4: jack no lease, no dog, and the gate's open, but 65 00:04:19,281 --> 00:04:23,281 Speaker 4: the gate had a high lock. So my thought is 66 00:04:23,401 --> 00:04:26,641 Speaker 4: the dogs jumped from the back step, off the porch, 67 00:04:26,841 --> 00:04:30,401 Speaker 4: over the fence, and she's got a chair and climbed up. 68 00:04:30,561 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 4: But I don't remember exactly how she got out, but 69 00:04:34,281 --> 00:04:36,681 Speaker 4: the lock was high on the gate, so for her 70 00:04:36,721 --> 00:04:38,361 Speaker 4: to get out, she would have had to climb up. 71 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,801 Speaker 2: I'm sure any parent who's been in that situation, we've 72 00:04:42,121 --> 00:04:45,601 Speaker 2: people with kids. When you can't see your child, your 73 00:04:45,601 --> 00:04:48,481 Speaker 2: heart just misses more than one beat. 74 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,601 Speaker 4: Well, poor Jackie got just thrown into the cot and 75 00:04:52,641 --> 00:04:55,041 Speaker 4: I just took off. I had no shoes on, nothing. 76 00:04:55,041 --> 00:04:57,761 Speaker 4: It was a stinking hot day and we used to 77 00:04:57,841 --> 00:04:59,761 Speaker 4: go to the park a lot, and I knew she 78 00:04:59,801 --> 00:05:02,881 Speaker 4: would know the way to the park, so I went 79 00:05:03,001 --> 00:05:05,921 Speaker 4: that way. The park was full of pearance people and 80 00:05:06,481 --> 00:05:08,761 Speaker 4: I'm just screaming at everybody. Have you seen her? 81 00:05:08,761 --> 00:05:09,441 Speaker 2: Have you seen her? 82 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:11,720 Speaker 4: She's got bathers on because she was in the pool, 83 00:05:11,761 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 4: so she just aid this little one piece and everybody's 84 00:05:16,121 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 4: just sort of looking at me like I was a 85 00:05:17,401 --> 00:05:20,161 Speaker 4: mad woman, you know, running through the park. I couldn't 86 00:05:20,161 --> 00:05:24,041 Speaker 4: find her there, so I'm heading back home again. And 87 00:05:24,081 --> 00:05:26,801 Speaker 4: these two young kids, a girl and a boy, the 88 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,841 Speaker 4: brother and sister on their pushbikes, saw me and said, 89 00:05:30,961 --> 00:05:33,201 Speaker 4: are you okay? Can we help you now? They would 90 00:05:33,241 --> 00:05:37,561 Speaker 4: have been thirteen ten around that age, brother and sister, 91 00:05:38,521 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 4: And so I quickly said, I've lost my little girl. 92 00:05:40,801 --> 00:05:42,721 Speaker 4: I can't find If you see her, can you just 93 00:05:43,281 --> 00:05:46,401 Speaker 4: grab her? You know? They said yeah, you said? They said, 94 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,361 Speaker 4: well go home, we'll get mum. She's got a car. 95 00:05:49,081 --> 00:05:51,361 Speaker 4: I said, okay, and I just ran. I kept running 96 00:05:51,401 --> 00:05:56,601 Speaker 4: and calling her name, no sign of a The fear 97 00:05:56,681 --> 00:06:03,041 Speaker 4: you feel is unbelievable, but I never thought anything bad. 98 00:06:03,081 --> 00:06:05,961 Speaker 2: I just thought she was lost. Anyway. 99 00:06:06,201 --> 00:06:07,801 Speaker 4: All of a sudden, this lady pulls up in this 100 00:06:07,961 --> 00:06:09,841 Speaker 4: car and she goes, oh, you're looking for your door. 101 00:06:09,841 --> 00:06:12,641 Speaker 4: I go yes, She goes, jump in quicker in the car. 102 00:06:13,761 --> 00:06:17,281 Speaker 4: So we're driving all around the streets looking and where 103 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:18,921 Speaker 4: we lived in the mould and at the back of 104 00:06:18,961 --> 00:06:21,681 Speaker 4: the houses there's lane ways. They must have been for 105 00:06:21,761 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 4: the old trucks or whatever something to do with the 106 00:06:24,481 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 4: housing in those days. So every couple of blocks there's 107 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 4: another lane way, and we're driving along and she's just 108 00:06:33,521 --> 00:06:35,721 Speaker 4: going slow and I'm just peering in every garden and 109 00:06:35,841 --> 00:06:40,161 Speaker 4: everywhere you could think of. And after about I suppose 110 00:06:41,201 --> 00:06:43,601 Speaker 4: while I was running around for like fifteen minutes before 111 00:06:43,681 --> 00:06:45,121 Speaker 4: and the lady picked me up, so it would have 112 00:06:45,161 --> 00:06:48,921 Speaker 4: been another ten to fifteen minutes after that, we come 113 00:06:48,961 --> 00:06:52,281 Speaker 4: to this lane may and there's this fella leaning up 114 00:06:52,281 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 4: against the fence reading a newspaper, and I thought, how odd, 115 00:06:56,841 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 4: And right next to it was a lane way. And 116 00:06:59,001 --> 00:07:02,041 Speaker 4: as I've looked up the lane way and she's still driving, 117 00:07:02,201 --> 00:07:05,481 Speaker 4: I've gone stop. First off, I saw her too, kids 118 00:07:06,161 --> 00:07:11,841 Speaker 4: on their pushbikes, So the lady stops her car and 119 00:07:11,921 --> 00:07:14,761 Speaker 4: I just remember the gentleman reading the newspaper, going like 120 00:07:15,401 --> 00:07:18,441 Speaker 4: what this at me? So I'm running up the lane 121 00:07:18,441 --> 00:07:21,881 Speaker 4: way and as I'm running a laneway, he came out 122 00:07:22,121 --> 00:07:24,601 Speaker 4: of this like little alcove where you must have had 123 00:07:24,601 --> 00:07:29,761 Speaker 4: a drive through into the backyard of the house and 124 00:07:29,881 --> 00:07:35,921 Speaker 4: there's a lease, no bathers and him, and he's seen 125 00:07:35,961 --> 00:07:41,201 Speaker 4: me coming and he's looked at me, looked down at 126 00:07:41,201 --> 00:07:45,481 Speaker 4: a lease, watched the kids, and then took off in 127 00:07:45,521 --> 00:07:49,041 Speaker 4: the other direction up the laneway. So I've just grabbed 128 00:07:49,041 --> 00:07:52,681 Speaker 4: a lease. The lady has driven us home got in 129 00:07:52,761 --> 00:07:56,601 Speaker 4: the front door at home, and I swear it must 130 00:07:56,601 --> 00:07:59,041 Speaker 4: have been like two minutes later there's a knock at 131 00:07:59,081 --> 00:08:02,761 Speaker 4: the front door, and it was a lady and a 132 00:08:02,841 --> 00:08:06,001 Speaker 4: gentleman police officer from the rape squad. 133 00:08:07,841 --> 00:08:12,881 Speaker 5: Because little did you know that Crowther was with her 134 00:08:13,121 --> 00:08:20,881 Speaker 5: head by the elbowe was letting her away, sorry, And 135 00:08:20,961 --> 00:08:23,401 Speaker 5: little did I know that the police had been following 136 00:08:23,481 --> 00:08:27,361 Speaker 5: him for about three weeks, waiting for this opportunity for 137 00:08:27,441 --> 00:08:29,441 Speaker 5: him to do the wrong thing again. 138 00:08:31,561 --> 00:08:34,841 Speaker 4: And little did I know that she was perfectly foreign, 139 00:08:35,321 --> 00:08:39,161 Speaker 4: because there was policeman all over the back fences watching him, 140 00:08:39,961 --> 00:08:42,681 Speaker 4: and the man read in his newspaper was a policeman. 141 00:08:43,241 --> 00:08:44,561 Speaker 2: But you don't know, you know. 142 00:08:45,681 --> 00:08:50,041 Speaker 4: So I feel a bit guilty that I probably spoiled 143 00:08:50,121 --> 00:08:51,201 Speaker 4: a bit for them that day. 144 00:08:51,961 --> 00:08:56,761 Speaker 2: But look how lucky she was, because when Alice got 145 00:08:56,761 --> 00:09:00,001 Speaker 2: in touch with me, she said that her wandering out 146 00:09:00,001 --> 00:09:03,801 Speaker 2: into the lane like that was like a lottery moment. Oh. Absolute. 147 00:09:03,881 --> 00:09:08,361 Speaker 2: Crowther and the police had been working on him for 148 00:09:08,401 --> 00:09:12,721 Speaker 2: some time. He'd been stalking kids around schools, around opportunity 149 00:09:12,761 --> 00:09:16,681 Speaker 2: that he had, but the lease never did so when 150 00:09:16,721 --> 00:09:20,441 Speaker 2: he was disturbed. He's bold as brass, he's gone up 151 00:09:20,481 --> 00:09:22,881 Speaker 2: to the police officers as well, that's right, and said, 152 00:09:22,921 --> 00:09:25,601 Speaker 2: you're looking for the chart he's in here. Yeah, yep, 153 00:09:26,281 --> 00:09:27,561 Speaker 2: exactly what he did. 154 00:09:28,001 --> 00:09:31,001 Speaker 4: But they actually saw him grab her by the elbow 155 00:09:31,121 --> 00:09:36,121 Speaker 4: to lead her away. So lucky was the kids that 156 00:09:36,161 --> 00:09:39,241 Speaker 4: I suppose first disturbed him because they came from that 157 00:09:39,281 --> 00:09:40,921 Speaker 4: way and I came from that way. So he was 158 00:09:41,001 --> 00:09:43,161 Speaker 4: cornered in the middle of this lane room. 159 00:09:43,561 --> 00:09:45,961 Speaker 2: I had to go, you know, and you'd have to 160 00:09:45,961 --> 00:09:48,321 Speaker 2: say that those kids on the bicycles. 161 00:09:48,081 --> 00:09:49,681 Speaker 4: God, I wish I knew who they were. I never 162 00:09:49,761 --> 00:09:53,321 Speaker 4: really thanked them or their mum. So I hear this. 163 00:09:54,361 --> 00:09:57,921 Speaker 2: I think of you a lot. Thank you. I'm sure 164 00:09:57,961 --> 00:10:00,321 Speaker 2: you're out there your adults now, probably with your own kids. 165 00:10:00,641 --> 00:10:03,361 Speaker 2: Get in touch with me email Adam shadywriter at gmail 166 00:10:03,401 --> 00:10:06,201 Speaker 2: dot com. Let's talk to you about that of the heroism, 167 00:10:06,441 --> 00:10:09,921 Speaker 2: how you changed the course not only of Elisa's life 168 00:10:09,921 --> 00:10:13,841 Speaker 2: but Janet's and also brought a heenous monster to justice. 169 00:10:13,921 --> 00:10:17,121 Speaker 2: It's so good those kids now, it took twenty four 170 00:10:17,241 --> 00:10:21,281 Speaker 2: years for you to discover what happened that day. Elise 171 00:10:22,321 --> 00:10:24,001 Speaker 2: recret the circumstances of that. 172 00:10:25,601 --> 00:10:28,121 Speaker 3: My name had passed away and mum had moved in 173 00:10:28,161 --> 00:10:29,961 Speaker 3: with us for a few years. So I was sorting 174 00:10:30,041 --> 00:10:32,921 Speaker 3: through old boxes and photos and things like that, and 175 00:10:33,001 --> 00:10:35,801 Speaker 3: I came across this newspaper article that had been cut 176 00:10:36,041 --> 00:10:39,761 Speaker 3: out of the newspaper, and I said to Mum, what's 177 00:10:39,801 --> 00:10:42,801 Speaker 3: this all about? And then she sat down and she 178 00:10:42,961 --> 00:10:45,281 Speaker 3: sort of said, all right, for you're old enough now 179 00:10:45,361 --> 00:10:48,681 Speaker 3: I can tell you. And yeah, she's went through the 180 00:10:48,721 --> 00:10:51,761 Speaker 3: story with me, and I was just amazed. I don't 181 00:10:51,761 --> 00:10:54,641 Speaker 3: remember any of it, obviously, but obviously it weighs have 182 00:10:54,761 --> 00:10:56,561 Speaker 3: you on mum's mind. 183 00:10:56,681 --> 00:10:58,441 Speaker 1: Still. 184 00:10:58,601 --> 00:11:01,081 Speaker 2: We're Facebook friends now since she contacted me, which is lovely. 185 00:11:01,681 --> 00:11:05,361 Speaker 2: And I was looking through your photographs and your married 186 00:11:05,401 --> 00:11:09,281 Speaker 2: with your own kids now. Life looks really happy, and 187 00:11:09,681 --> 00:11:11,721 Speaker 2: you seem very grateful for your life, and you wonder 188 00:11:12,441 --> 00:11:14,761 Speaker 2: how different it might have been were it not for 189 00:11:14,841 --> 00:11:17,561 Speaker 2: those kids on the bicycle and the lady and the 190 00:11:17,561 --> 00:11:18,801 Speaker 2: police officers as well. 191 00:11:19,761 --> 00:11:23,761 Speaker 4: Very very lucky someone was looking after it that day. 192 00:11:24,441 --> 00:11:27,721 Speaker 2: Jennet, you're still dealing with that ooh emotion of that. Yeah, 193 00:11:28,681 --> 00:11:31,481 Speaker 2: why what's the feeling you have now talking about it? 194 00:11:32,601 --> 00:11:36,241 Speaker 2: I think it's the what ifs, you know. I think 195 00:11:36,281 --> 00:11:38,401 Speaker 2: I'm a reasonably good MoMA. I thought she was safe 196 00:11:38,441 --> 00:11:41,841 Speaker 2: in the backyard. It can happen so easily, and just 197 00:11:41,921 --> 00:11:43,801 Speaker 2: the fear I had that day, have not been able 198 00:11:43,801 --> 00:11:46,681 Speaker 2: to find of like for twenty to thirty minutes, she 199 00:11:46,841 --> 00:11:53,761 Speaker 2: was gone, no sign of her anywhere, And just when 200 00:11:53,801 --> 00:11:59,441 Speaker 2: we went to court for it, there's all these angry dads. 201 00:11:59,481 --> 00:12:02,641 Speaker 2: That's what I remember most about the court, the angry dads. 202 00:12:04,041 --> 00:12:07,881 Speaker 2: And something was said in the courtroom that led him off, 203 00:12:07,921 --> 00:12:11,201 Speaker 2: something was said that shouldn't have been said, and he 204 00:12:11,481 --> 00:12:15,401 Speaker 2: actually walked out of the courtroom that day. Well, these dads, 205 00:12:15,401 --> 00:12:17,601 Speaker 2: they were just saying, oh, give us five minutes with him, 206 00:12:17,601 --> 00:12:19,721 Speaker 2: give us five minutes, you know. And I mean they 207 00:12:19,761 --> 00:12:22,441 Speaker 2: went through a lot more than what I went through. 208 00:12:22,521 --> 00:12:26,921 Speaker 2: So just very very lucky that day because he faced 209 00:12:26,961 --> 00:12:32,281 Speaker 2: seventy one counts of child molestic through that arrest, and 210 00:12:32,361 --> 00:12:36,161 Speaker 2: yet he ends up walking free, free on a technicality. Yes, 211 00:12:36,321 --> 00:12:40,721 Speaker 2: to offend again, no doubt. How did that make you feel? 212 00:12:41,641 --> 00:12:43,641 Speaker 2: I was angry too. 213 00:12:43,841 --> 00:12:48,001 Speaker 4: I mean, how can something so stupid let men like 214 00:12:48,081 --> 00:12:52,841 Speaker 4: him go free again and to do it over and 215 00:12:52,841 --> 00:12:54,081 Speaker 4: over and over again again. 216 00:12:54,361 --> 00:12:56,441 Speaker 2: Yes, you're right, Jannet, he did walk on that occasion, 217 00:12:56,481 --> 00:12:59,721 Speaker 2: but he wasn't strictly free because there was a series 218 00:12:59,761 --> 00:13:02,521 Speaker 2: of aborted trials. In that case, some of the accounts 219 00:13:02,521 --> 00:13:05,921 Speaker 2: were dropped, the original dozens and dozens of charges, and 220 00:13:06,041 --> 00:13:08,921 Speaker 2: he was sentenced to sixteen years and two months imprisonment 221 00:13:09,201 --> 00:13:12,121 Speaker 2: with non parol of thirteen years. But after the long 222 00:13:12,121 --> 00:13:15,601 Speaker 2: appeal process that was whittled down, you wouldn't believe it 223 00:13:15,841 --> 00:13:20,721 Speaker 2: down to just twenty months on two counts serve concurrently 224 00:13:20,961 --> 00:13:26,401 Speaker 2: with a non parole period of just twelve months. Absolutely outrageous, 225 00:13:26,721 --> 00:13:29,921 Speaker 2: But that's why the court moved sometimes in very mysterious ways. 226 00:13:31,201 --> 00:13:33,321 Speaker 2: He got on sixty minutes there and he said that 227 00:13:33,801 --> 00:13:37,001 Speaker 2: it's so easy. Yes, So I just drive along in 228 00:13:37,041 --> 00:13:40,721 Speaker 2: my vehicle. I see a child, kin cruel, I beckon 229 00:13:40,761 --> 00:13:43,561 Speaker 2: them to my vehicle and I get them in there, 230 00:13:43,601 --> 00:13:46,601 Speaker 2: and it's as easy as there's easy. He sat there, 231 00:13:47,361 --> 00:13:54,721 Speaker 2: unashamed of his disgusting perversions, stealing children and glorying in it. 232 00:13:54,841 --> 00:13:56,841 Speaker 2: And he had a child of his own, he did. 233 00:13:58,681 --> 00:14:01,041 Speaker 2: And you've got children of your own now at least. Yeah, 234 00:14:01,841 --> 00:14:03,401 Speaker 2: how does that sit with you now? When you look 235 00:14:03,401 --> 00:14:06,721 Speaker 2: at your children there, vulnerable, innocent growing up. They're our 236 00:14:06,841 --> 00:14:09,161 Speaker 2: teen in their teens. I believe. What impact has they 237 00:14:09,201 --> 00:14:12,441 Speaker 2: had on your your way of dealing with them as 238 00:14:12,441 --> 00:14:12,761 Speaker 2: a mother? 239 00:14:13,361 --> 00:14:17,161 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, definitely. I think it was a different time 240 00:14:17,201 --> 00:14:19,081 Speaker 3: when I grew up as well. Kids were out on 241 00:14:19,121 --> 00:14:22,441 Speaker 3: the street a lot more definitely after knowing that story, 242 00:14:22,521 --> 00:14:26,841 Speaker 3: more vigilant and aware, especially with sleepovers and things like 243 00:14:26,881 --> 00:14:29,281 Speaker 3: that with the kids, always mindful. 244 00:14:29,561 --> 00:14:29,801 Speaker 2: Yeah. 245 00:14:30,201 --> 00:14:33,761 Speaker 3: I just think I can't imagine what Mum went through 246 00:14:34,201 --> 00:14:37,441 Speaker 3: and how I would have reacted in that situation. And 247 00:14:37,441 --> 00:14:39,441 Speaker 3: I think it's just so amazing that it shows that 248 00:14:39,441 --> 00:14:44,601 Speaker 3: there's good people that helped mum that day. And I 249 00:14:44,641 --> 00:14:48,801 Speaker 3: feel really sad, and I think Mum has that guilt 250 00:14:48,881 --> 00:14:51,721 Speaker 3: too for the other families. Yep. 251 00:14:52,401 --> 00:14:54,601 Speaker 2: How have you tried to deal with that with your 252 00:14:54,641 --> 00:14:56,921 Speaker 2: mum since you were twenty seven? It's a while ago, 253 00:14:57,121 --> 00:14:59,561 Speaker 2: not that long ago, but you've helped her to try 254 00:14:59,561 --> 00:15:02,481 Speaker 2: to understand her emotions, I guess, and try to move 255 00:15:02,521 --> 00:15:05,681 Speaker 2: past it. But see she's still very emotional about it. Yeah, 256 00:15:06,001 --> 00:15:06,361 Speaker 2: he is. 257 00:15:07,281 --> 00:15:09,641 Speaker 3: We talk about it and we've tried to do some 258 00:15:09,681 --> 00:15:13,761 Speaker 3: research to find out is he still alive passed away? Yeah, 259 00:15:13,801 --> 00:15:15,281 Speaker 3: try to do a bit of research. I was supposed 260 00:15:15,321 --> 00:15:17,921 Speaker 3: to find out whatever happened to him. Because we didn't 261 00:15:17,961 --> 00:15:23,001 Speaker 3: have that closure either, Mum, sort of. You can't really 262 00:15:23,001 --> 00:15:27,201 Speaker 3: find much on him, I thought, I'm not a jo yeah, 263 00:15:27,321 --> 00:15:29,841 Speaker 3: to find out what happened. 264 00:15:29,881 --> 00:15:32,561 Speaker 2: So because he died in two thousand and three at 265 00:15:32,561 --> 00:15:35,481 Speaker 2: the age of fifty five from a heart attack natural causes, 266 00:15:36,081 --> 00:15:38,841 Speaker 2: I think that was a mercy for him, really, and 267 00:15:38,881 --> 00:15:41,521 Speaker 2: I think the fact that he didn't live to a 268 00:15:41,601 --> 00:15:44,721 Speaker 2: ripe old age. His father and grandfather also died young 269 00:15:44,721 --> 00:15:48,281 Speaker 2: in their forties from heart conditions, and so I'm not 270 00:15:48,321 --> 00:15:51,121 Speaker 2: a big believer in God, but you think some force 271 00:15:51,161 --> 00:15:53,841 Speaker 2: snatched him up before he could continue doing what he 272 00:15:53,881 --> 00:15:59,721 Speaker 2: was doing exactly in a bit earlier. How did your 273 00:15:59,761 --> 00:16:02,281 Speaker 2: life change after that in your family, Janet. 274 00:16:05,041 --> 00:16:06,441 Speaker 4: Oh, I have a little man of my side again, 275 00:16:06,441 --> 00:16:09,401 Speaker 4: and we would go shopping and she wouldn't even hide, 276 00:16:09,441 --> 00:16:11,601 Speaker 4: you know, like kids hide under the close at the 277 00:16:11,641 --> 00:16:14,761 Speaker 4: shopping center. My heart was just almost stopped, you know. 278 00:16:15,401 --> 00:16:18,241 Speaker 4: She never realized, you know, how much fear she went. 279 00:16:18,161 --> 00:16:24,361 Speaker 2: Into me again. But yeah, it was just just a 280 00:16:24,401 --> 00:16:25,481 Speaker 2: horrible couple of years. 281 00:16:25,521 --> 00:16:28,721 Speaker 4: I think before I really came back down to earth 282 00:16:30,161 --> 00:16:35,081 Speaker 4: and had like little Jack as well. So I think 283 00:16:35,121 --> 00:16:39,521 Speaker 4: we moved and we just at least had started kinder 284 00:16:40,321 --> 00:16:42,601 Speaker 4: and school, and that's when I sort of start to 285 00:16:42,601 --> 00:16:46,641 Speaker 4: relax a bit. After that. The most disappointing thing was 286 00:16:46,681 --> 00:16:49,561 Speaker 4: that court. I think that day when he. 287 00:16:51,961 --> 00:16:56,441 Speaker 2: Got out on a technicality, and there's no doubt he 288 00:16:56,481 --> 00:16:58,881 Speaker 2: went on to a fend more. I mean, I've seen 289 00:16:59,041 --> 00:17:03,521 Speaker 2: correspondence with other journalists where people believe that their daughters 290 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,961 Speaker 2: were also molested by Crowther and he never faced justice 291 00:17:08,001 --> 00:17:11,041 Speaker 2: for that. I mean, this sort of person is an 292 00:17:11,120 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 2: intractable sexual offender. And if it was these days this 293 00:17:15,281 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 2: was occurring he posts his sentence, he wouldn't be allowed 294 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,321 Speaker 2: to walk on the streets. He'd be off the place 295 00:17:21,360 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 2: called the Village of the Damned, and it's called Corella, 296 00:17:23,801 --> 00:17:27,961 Speaker 2: place where these intractable sexual offenders go after their sentence 297 00:17:28,041 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 2: is finished, and they're monitored behind high walls with ankle bracelets, 298 00:17:33,041 --> 00:17:35,001 Speaker 2: and if they go out of there, they have to 299 00:17:35,041 --> 00:17:37,641 Speaker 2: be monitored to go into town or anything else like that. 300 00:17:37,921 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 2: And it's only when the court feels that they have 301 00:17:41,441 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 2: settled down a little bit they're allowed into the community. 302 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,001 Speaker 2: And you think if that was the approach back in 303 00:17:47,041 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 2: the day, he would never have been on the streets 304 00:17:49,921 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 2: to have any opportunity and that lottery moment as you 305 00:17:53,521 --> 00:17:56,561 Speaker 2: called it, My goodness, it makes my heart jump as well. 306 00:17:56,921 --> 00:18:04,641 Speaker 2: So this should never have happened. Na, I can see 307 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 2: these memory is really coming back heavy for you. And 308 00:18:06,921 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 2: I think what really stuck with you was when the 309 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 2: policeman who'd been I've been working on them for three weeks, 310 00:18:12,761 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 2: playing clothes, following him around, waiting for that red handed moment, 311 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:20,961 Speaker 2: and when it didn't happen, and the police looked at you, 312 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 2: what was that face that he. 313 00:18:23,561 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 4: Called It was just a real disappointment. They was so 314 00:18:26,561 --> 00:18:31,281 Speaker 4: close and his crazy mum running up the lane. May 315 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 4: and I do have a bit of guilt. Maybe that 316 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,801 Speaker 4: was part of the reason it was out of court 317 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:41,761 Speaker 4: that day, I hope not. 318 00:18:42,521 --> 00:18:44,801 Speaker 2: I don't think that was I hope not. I think 319 00:18:44,801 --> 00:18:47,081 Speaker 2: if the police didn't do their work, it's on them, 320 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,761 Speaker 2: not you. You're protecting your child from an absolute monster 321 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,561 Speaker 2: and a predator. And the interesting thing is that a 322 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,201 Speaker 2: number of investigative journalists have looked at Crowther for possible 323 00:18:57,201 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 2: involvement in the Mister Cruel abductions as well of slightly 324 00:19:01,921 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 2: older girls. But this guy seems to have been a 325 00:19:04,481 --> 00:19:07,561 Speaker 2: complete oppert He tended to pick girls who were so young, 326 00:19:07,681 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 2: like three, so they could not give evidence against him. 327 00:19:10,721 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 2: You can barely remember what was going on, and so 328 00:19:13,521 --> 00:19:17,321 Speaker 2: he was very calculating, very clever, and he also had 329 00:19:17,321 --> 00:19:21,961 Speaker 2: a reputation for persecuting families who tried to put him 330 00:19:21,961 --> 00:19:24,281 Speaker 2: in as well. There's one case where a child was 331 00:19:24,681 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 2: molested that I know of, where he wasn't caught and 332 00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 2: evidence was given against him, and that person was persecuted 333 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 2: for years by Crowther contacting them saying it that he 334 00:19:34,961 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 2: was going to blow the father's brains out, he was 335 00:19:37,921 --> 00:19:39,561 Speaker 2: going to come back and get their kids and all 336 00:19:39,561 --> 00:19:43,681 Speaker 2: this sort of stuff. So you really dodged a bullet 337 00:19:43,721 --> 00:19:44,360 Speaker 2: on this day. 338 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 4: Definitely, so so lucky and like a lot of other families, 339 00:19:52,561 --> 00:19:54,041 Speaker 4: very blessed, very blessed. 340 00:19:54,041 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 2: Indeed, so you're looking after Mumu. Yeah, giving you. But 341 00:19:59,321 --> 00:20:00,961 Speaker 2: this is this is a tough moment to talk about 342 00:20:00,961 --> 00:20:02,441 Speaker 2: it for the first time. I really appreciate you coming 343 00:20:02,481 --> 00:20:03,880 Speaker 2: forward and this is what this show's all about, by 344 00:20:03,921 --> 00:20:06,761 Speaker 2: the way, people coming forward with their stories. It's your 345 00:20:06,761 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 2: show out there as much as his mind. And this 346 00:20:08,721 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 2: is how this came about, at least came forward to 347 00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 2: me and said, I love the show. I want to 348 00:20:13,441 --> 00:20:15,801 Speaker 2: tell my story. Why was it important for you to 349 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 2: tell the story? 350 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,161 Speaker 3: I feel Mum will get a bit of closure from 351 00:20:20,201 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 3: finding the kids on the bike and the mum that 352 00:20:21,961 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 3: helped her that day, because that's the main thing she 353 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,481 Speaker 3: talks about. And I feel like we might get more 354 00:20:27,521 --> 00:20:30,120 Speaker 3: information if it's out there in the public and someone's 355 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 3: listening to this now and can offer more information or 356 00:20:33,921 --> 00:20:35,801 Speaker 3: give someone else closure. 357 00:20:36,441 --> 00:20:40,121 Speaker 2: Because I think there are other victims who've never had 358 00:20:40,281 --> 00:20:42,360 Speaker 2: justice and they won't get justice now because he's dead. 359 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 2: But I think still closure is incredibly important, and I 360 00:20:45,201 --> 00:20:47,401 Speaker 2: can see how important it is in your life, Janet, 361 00:20:47,961 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 2: that you kept. 362 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 4: On still hurts. Yeah, still hurts. Even though she was 363 00:20:55,600 --> 00:21:00,721 Speaker 4: lucky one, it still hurts. Yeah, that's it. I'm surprised 364 00:21:00,761 --> 00:21:02,281 Speaker 4: by your reaction, though I would have thought. 365 00:21:02,281 --> 00:21:04,481 Speaker 2: I mean, I guess it is that sort of survivor 366 00:21:04,481 --> 00:21:08,081 Speaker 2: guilt you're talk talking about, that you might have been 367 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,041 Speaker 2: somehow responsible for putting your inn arms away when you weren't. 368 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 2: You're doing that every other Australian family does over summer, 369 00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:16,161 Speaker 2: kids playing in the back garden, the blow up pool, 370 00:21:16,281 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 2: the dog. It's a scene that we can all relate to. 371 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,161 Speaker 2: But the fact is those old days where people thought 372 00:21:22,241 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 2: things were safe and serene we could do these things, 373 00:21:25,241 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 2: they were not safe whatsoever. And the problem was that 374 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,441 Speaker 2: in those days we still treated kids being taken up 375 00:21:33,441 --> 00:21:36,521 Speaker 2: to sexual assault even as almost as a social welfare issue. 376 00:21:37,041 --> 00:21:40,521 Speaker 2: There wasn't enough protection, There wasn't enough police manpower on 377 00:21:40,561 --> 00:21:42,801 Speaker 2: these sort of jobs. And so guys like crowd that 378 00:21:42,921 --> 00:21:45,801 Speaker 2: slipped between the cracks. And to see him in nineteen 379 00:21:45,801 --> 00:21:51,481 Speaker 2: eighty three on sixty Minutes telling his story about how 380 00:21:51,521 --> 00:21:55,721 Speaker 2: easy it is to steal children, and Jeff McMullen, very 381 00:21:55,721 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 2: good reporter who I know personally nodding there and giving 382 00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:03,401 Speaker 2: this vile creature of platform. It's interesting when they talk 383 00:22:03,441 --> 00:22:09,081 Speaker 2: about these sexual aff nothing, not jail, not even chemical 384 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:14,961 Speaker 2: carstration can make a difference, because that predation, that stalking, 385 00:22:15,961 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 2: that looking for opportunity is what it's all about. The 386 00:22:19,481 --> 00:22:23,120 Speaker 2: sex is a kind of reward at the end of this, 387 00:22:23,321 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 2: But the true thing is the preying on people. And 388 00:22:27,281 --> 00:22:29,681 Speaker 2: you can imagine that the fear in the community back 389 00:22:29,681 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 2: then when there was no CCTV, no no mobile phones, 390 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 2: no nothing, no mobile phones, just. 391 00:22:38,521 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 4: Running the hot streets, and you know what just crazy 392 00:22:42,481 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 4: to think, isn't it that far that now. 393 00:22:48,961 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 2: Big changes. Well, the sad thing is that still goes on, 394 00:22:52,481 --> 00:22:55,321 Speaker 2: and these people lurk in the shadows about community still. 395 00:22:56,001 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 2: And I'm sure there are people out there who've had 396 00:22:57,521 --> 00:23:03,041 Speaker 2: experiences that they might have dismissed something, standards, something not 397 00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:06,521 Speaker 2: to be concerned about. Someone lurking around a street, someone 398 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:11,321 Speaker 2: you know you see more than once, monitoring kids in schools, 399 00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:16,241 Speaker 2: at pools, in their daily lives. Report them, call crime 400 00:23:16,281 --> 00:23:19,721 Speaker 2: stoppers one eight hundred, triple three, triple zero. This is 401 00:23:19,761 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 2: an amazing story of luck. Do you feel blessed? Elise? 402 00:23:22,761 --> 00:23:26,241 Speaker 3: Absolutely so so pleased and I have the best man. 403 00:23:28,321 --> 00:23:31,201 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it's fantastic you've shared it today, and 404 00:23:31,281 --> 00:23:34,321 Speaker 2: I would urge anybody out there who has more information 405 00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:37,561 Speaker 2: about crowd. Maybe you saw him back in the day, 406 00:23:37,681 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 2: maybe you also had another lucky escape with your children, 407 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,601 Speaker 2: because he was just at it full time, absolutely full time. 408 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,401 Speaker 2: So there's more stories out there. I'd love to hear them. 409 00:23:46,721 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming that and sharing this 410 00:23:48,961 --> 00:23:55,400 Speaker 2: amazing story. Thanks Adam, thank you, Thanks Elise, Thanks Jean. 411 00:23:55,561 --> 00:23:58,321 Speaker 2: I think we need some more background on Christopher Crowther here, 412 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 2: because as you say you feel like you might have 413 00:24:02,001 --> 00:24:04,761 Speaker 2: contributed to him getting off by the fact that he 414 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:09,041 Speaker 2: wasn't caught red handed in the act of molesting poor 415 00:24:09,041 --> 00:24:11,561 Speaker 2: Elise here. So I thought I'd bring in Aimin Gunning, 416 00:24:11,561 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 2: who's looked very intensely at Crowther and his possible involvement 417 00:24:16,681 --> 00:24:21,041 Speaker 2: in other crimes. Amen runs the Melbourne Marvels website and 418 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 2: he's got certainly a strong interest in these offenders. So 419 00:24:25,801 --> 00:24:28,361 Speaker 2: I thought I'd bring Aimen in. Can I Aimen get 420 00:24:28,441 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 2: Adam tell me how bad an offender was Crowther, in 421 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:33,761 Speaker 2: your opinion. 422 00:24:34,481 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 1: Up there with the worst. 423 00:24:35,441 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 6: I'd say My interest in Crowder was in researching the 424 00:24:39,441 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 6: Mister Cruel case, and Crowder was one of seven Mister 425 00:24:43,681 --> 00:24:48,041 Speaker 6: Kruel suspects at the time. In the early nineties, he 426 00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 6: was one of seven suspects that made up what was 427 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 6: called the Sierraphiles. This was reportedly a list of suspects 428 00:24:55,241 --> 00:24:59,201 Speaker 6: that Operation Spectrum was unable to rule out as being 429 00:24:59,281 --> 00:25:04,441 Speaker 6: mister Kruel when that operation disbanded in nineteen ninety four. 430 00:25:05,441 --> 00:25:08,041 Speaker 6: Now it should be pointed out that he could not 431 00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 6: have abducted Carmen Chan as he was already on romant 432 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:16,001 Speaker 6: at the time of the abduction. For a series of 433 00:25:16,441 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 6: the abductions that you've likely been talking about, prolific series 434 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,361 Speaker 6: in the mid nineteen eighties, early to mid nineteen eighties, 435 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:25,561 Speaker 6: I can give you a little bit of a biography 436 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,521 Speaker 6: of him. He was born in nineteen forty eight. He's 437 00:25:29,561 --> 00:25:33,681 Speaker 6: from a middle class family, growing up in the Melbourne 438 00:25:33,681 --> 00:25:37,801 Speaker 6: suburb of Birwood. Both his parents died young in their 439 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 6: forties from heart attacks, and this is likely the genetic 440 00:25:42,961 --> 00:25:47,761 Speaker 6: trait that also claimed Crowder's life at the relatively young 441 00:25:47,801 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 6: age of fifty five in two thousand and three. So 442 00:25:51,801 --> 00:25:55,361 Speaker 6: his court case in the nineteen nineties, Crowd's own barrister 443 00:25:55,801 --> 00:25:59,001 Speaker 6: had claimed that his client had been exposed from the 444 00:25:59,041 --> 00:26:02,321 Speaker 6: age of seven to a kind of child abuse himself, 445 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,281 Speaker 6: when his father had moved his lover into to the 446 00:26:05,321 --> 00:26:08,321 Speaker 6: family home and taken photos of the living lover in 447 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:14,281 Speaker 6: quote pornographic or gynecological situations which Crowder and his brother 448 00:26:14,321 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 6: had seen. So you know, it's that kind of thing 449 00:26:17,521 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 6: where you often hear about offenders having this in their childhood. 450 00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:26,281 Speaker 6: He worked in different jobs throughout the seventies and eighties. 451 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 6: I know that he worked for the ABC Channel nine 452 00:26:30,961 --> 00:26:35,041 Speaker 6: and the Australian Institute of Management. He had been convicted 453 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,761 Speaker 6: of sexual offenses in nineteen seventy two and child stealing 454 00:26:39,921 --> 00:26:44,041 Speaker 6: in nineteen seventy four and nineteen eighty one, so then 455 00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:48,081 Speaker 6: by nineteen eighty three he's out of jail and he 456 00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:52,521 Speaker 6: famously appears on sixty Minutes as a so called reformed 457 00:26:52,640 --> 00:27:00,281 Speaker 6: Peterpharlt and the studio interview of Crowder. In this interview, 458 00:27:00,321 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 6: he's using the pseudonym Brian and he's actually disguised himself 459 00:27:04,481 --> 00:27:09,001 Speaker 6: by graying out his hair and beard, and he lies 460 00:27:09,041 --> 00:27:11,961 Speaker 6: to the interviewer when he said he was reformed and 461 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,561 Speaker 6: hadn't abducted a child for six years, when in fact 462 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 6: his offending had continued during this time. 463 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,521 Speaker 1: This program is fascinating. 464 00:27:21,961 --> 00:27:26,001 Speaker 6: There's a secondary scene actually where Crowder is actually driving 465 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,321 Speaker 6: around a Channel nine film crew in his light blue 466 00:27:30,441 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 6: forward Fourteina panel van which he used for many of 467 00:27:33,721 --> 00:27:37,521 Speaker 6: his abductions in Melbourne soaps, and he. 468 00:27:37,561 --> 00:27:40,360 Speaker 1: Shows them he approaches young. 469 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,161 Speaker 6: Girls in the streets and the assets them for directions 470 00:27:43,801 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 6: and to get in his car, and he's trying to 471 00:27:46,281 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 6: show them how easy it is to abduct children. 472 00:27:49,561 --> 00:27:52,921 Speaker 1: But in this scene his hair is not grayed out. 473 00:27:52,801 --> 00:27:56,041 Speaker 6: So they've obviously filmed it at a different time, and 474 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,721 Speaker 6: so he's got the contrast and his hair color is striking. 475 00:28:01,281 --> 00:28:04,801 Speaker 6: And I'll come back to this in a moment, but 476 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 6: he has kind of an auburn colored hair and beard 477 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,601 Speaker 6: that you can see it in the sunlight as he's 478 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 6: driving around. 479 00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:17,281 Speaker 1: And as he's driving around. 480 00:28:17,561 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 6: He tells his guests from Channel nine quote, I'd pick 481 00:28:21,921 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 6: up children from a park alleyway shopping center on the 482 00:28:25,201 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 6: way home from school, on the way to school. It 483 00:28:27,761 --> 00:28:31,201 Speaker 6: made no difference. There's a smallest board of children out there. 484 00:28:31,521 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 6: All you have to do is drive around until you 485 00:28:33,921 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 6: see one and pick them up. And then the interviewer 486 00:28:37,721 --> 00:28:41,801 Speaker 6: asks him, you'd think you'd be taking enormous risks abducting children, 487 00:28:41,881 --> 00:28:46,161 Speaker 6: and crowded responds, no, you're not. Very few child monists 488 00:28:46,201 --> 00:28:48,441 Speaker 6: are caught. It's the easiest crime to commit and get 489 00:28:48,441 --> 00:28:52,641 Speaker 6: away with. And then I'll go on to as his 490 00:28:52,841 --> 00:28:57,921 Speaker 6: offenses really escalate between late nineteen eighty four and late 491 00:28:58,041 --> 00:29:02,081 Speaker 6: nineteen eighty six. So during this period the Melbourne public 492 00:29:02,161 --> 00:29:05,921 Speaker 6: was panic stricken due to the abduction sexual assault at 493 00:29:06,001 --> 00:29:08,481 Speaker 6: least fourteen girls by a man in a car who 494 00:29:08,481 --> 00:29:11,681 Speaker 6: had abduct the girls off the streets. There were aged 495 00:29:11,721 --> 00:29:14,801 Speaker 6: between three and fourteen years of age, and the offenses 496 00:29:14,841 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 6: were committed in quite a few different suburbs in the 497 00:29:18,281 --> 00:29:20,081 Speaker 6: southeastern and eastern suburbs. 498 00:29:20,081 --> 00:29:21,921 Speaker 1: So you've got Burwood. 499 00:29:21,561 --> 00:29:30,881 Speaker 6: Noble Park, Brighton, Bellwood, Parkdale, Clayton, Rouville, spring Vale, Chadstin, Oakley, Maulvern, Jordanville, Corfield, Mentone, 500 00:29:31,281 --> 00:29:35,641 Speaker 6: Sandringham and finally black Rock. And I'm not sure if 501 00:29:35,681 --> 00:29:40,121 Speaker 6: you've already touched on this particular offense, but this was 502 00:29:40,321 --> 00:29:44,721 Speaker 6: the most important one in his later being charged. 503 00:29:46,321 --> 00:29:47,801 Speaker 1: In November nineteen. 504 00:29:47,601 --> 00:29:50,401 Speaker 6: Eighty six, he abducted her seven year old girl off 505 00:29:50,401 --> 00:29:52,721 Speaker 6: the street in black Rock and drove her to a 506 00:29:52,801 --> 00:29:56,041 Speaker 6: park and seaford where he sexually assaulted her. And this 507 00:29:56,161 --> 00:30:00,681 Speaker 6: incident receives a great deal of media publicity and as 508 00:30:00,721 --> 00:30:06,001 Speaker 6: a result, he actually phoned a current affair named Day 509 00:30:06,001 --> 00:30:10,041 Speaker 6: by Day using the false name Peter Harvey and gave 510 00:30:10,121 --> 00:30:14,041 Speaker 6: secret information about the attack, which led police to believe 511 00:30:14,121 --> 00:30:18,241 Speaker 6: that he had been involved. And he also called the 512 00:30:18,721 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 6: HANDT and CIB using the same false name Peter Harvey, 513 00:30:23,241 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 6: and when they told him they hadn't got far in 514 00:30:26,521 --> 00:30:32,401 Speaker 6: their investigations. He had replied, goody, goody, goody, because he's 515 00:30:32,401 --> 00:30:37,001 Speaker 6: on the prowl again tonight. And the judge in his 516 00:30:37,121 --> 00:30:40,321 Speaker 6: nineteen ninety two case said, when he read the transcript 517 00:30:40,321 --> 00:30:43,961 Speaker 6: from the recording, he said that crowd appeared to be 518 00:30:44,161 --> 00:30:47,121 Speaker 6: basking in a state of sexual excitement during the core. 519 00:30:48,761 --> 00:30:50,561 Speaker 2: This guy is absolutely in veterate. 520 00:30:50,641 --> 00:30:53,521 Speaker 1: I mean, I can go on with what happened here. 521 00:30:53,601 --> 00:30:57,481 Speaker 6: So he's then arrested at that time December nineteen eighty six, 522 00:30:57,561 --> 00:30:59,161 Speaker 6: and he's questioned. 523 00:30:59,361 --> 00:31:01,361 Speaker 1: About the Black Rock abduction, but. 524 00:31:01,321 --> 00:31:07,921 Speaker 6: He's released without charge and then said these attacks stop, okay, 525 00:31:08,001 --> 00:31:12,161 Speaker 6: So these abductions of young girls between eighty six and 526 00:31:12,241 --> 00:31:17,961 Speaker 6: ninety one, there's no more. But then he police obviously 527 00:31:18,001 --> 00:31:21,441 Speaker 6: take a while to come up with their case against him, 528 00:31:22,081 --> 00:31:26,481 Speaker 6: and he's arrested in January nineteen ninety one. So as 529 00:31:26,521 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 6: I said before, so that's three months before Carmen Chan 530 00:31:29,641 --> 00:31:32,561 Speaker 6: has abducted in April nineteen ninety one. So he couldn't 531 00:31:32,561 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 6: have done that because he's on remand. But he's charged 532 00:31:36,001 --> 00:31:39,921 Speaker 6: with offenses against children, sexual offenses and child stealing in 533 00:31:40,041 --> 00:31:44,641 Speaker 6: nineteen eighty five and nineteen eighty six, and he's convicted 534 00:31:44,841 --> 00:31:48,801 Speaker 6: in mid nineteen ninety two after four aborted trials, and 535 00:31:48,881 --> 00:31:52,321 Speaker 6: he's sentenced to sixteen years with a non parole period 536 00:31:52,321 --> 00:31:55,761 Speaker 6: of thirteen years for child stealing, in decent assault and 537 00:31:55,801 --> 00:32:00,281 Speaker 6: sexual penetration. However, as you know, he appeals to conviction 538 00:32:00,401 --> 00:32:04,681 Speaker 6: in ninety three, and the main evidence against him was 539 00:32:05,201 --> 00:32:11,001 Speaker 6: voice identification by police and his ex wife and some 540 00:32:11,161 --> 00:32:15,361 Speaker 6: forensic tests which had initially excluded Crowder as the source 541 00:32:15,441 --> 00:32:19,881 Speaker 6: of seamen. And the outcome was that eleven of the 542 00:32:20,481 --> 00:32:25,401 Speaker 6: counts were quashed, but the charges which he had pled 543 00:32:25,441 --> 00:32:30,361 Speaker 6: guilty on held up, and so his sentence gets massively 544 00:32:30,441 --> 00:32:35,161 Speaker 6: reduced to twenty months imprisonment for non parole period of 545 00:32:35,161 --> 00:32:38,081 Speaker 6: twelve months, so he's effectively already released. 546 00:32:39,681 --> 00:32:40,121 Speaker 4: Now. 547 00:32:40,801 --> 00:32:42,161 Speaker 1: I do believe that he. 548 00:32:43,081 --> 00:32:45,841 Speaker 6: Ended up back in prison, though he's convicted again in 549 00:32:45,921 --> 00:32:50,201 Speaker 6: nineteen ninety nine. It seems that while he was in 550 00:32:50,241 --> 00:32:56,481 Speaker 6: prison he shared a cell with a convicted murderer by 551 00:32:56,521 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 6: the name of Ronald Victor Lucas, who was convicted for 552 00:33:01,561 --> 00:33:05,721 Speaker 6: the murder and dismemberment of James Pinacos, who was killed 553 00:33:05,761 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 6: with the crossbow. Now, Lucas convinced Crowther that he was 554 00:33:10,281 --> 00:33:14,681 Speaker 6: innocent and framed by others, saying Crowd took upon himself 555 00:33:14,721 --> 00:33:19,841 Speaker 6: to seek justice on Lucas's behalf, and police found no 556 00:33:19,881 --> 00:33:23,441 Speaker 6: supporting evidence of this though, and no body parts werever discovered. 557 00:33:23,841 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 6: For Crowd's lawyer himself explained that Crowther suffered from a 558 00:33:28,481 --> 00:33:32,441 Speaker 6: delusional disorder and was trying to write what he saw 559 00:33:32,481 --> 00:33:36,761 Speaker 6: as a wrong, but didn't support his client in his beliefs. 560 00:33:37,881 --> 00:33:39,521 Speaker 6: The other thing I'd like to say though, is coming 561 00:33:39,521 --> 00:33:42,481 Speaker 6: back to the nineteen eighty six case. 562 00:33:43,441 --> 00:33:45,041 Speaker 1: I think this is pretty important. 563 00:33:45,561 --> 00:33:50,361 Speaker 6: So as you know, one of the early Bayside attacks 564 00:33:50,801 --> 00:33:55,401 Speaker 6: that was Operation Spectrum believed was done by mister Krule 565 00:33:56,281 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 6: was the February nineteen eighty six abduction of a twenty 566 00:34:01,201 --> 00:34:05,521 Speaker 6: one year old woman from Corfield. She was driven to 567 00:34:06,201 --> 00:34:11,281 Speaker 6: a park in Chelsea and she actually escaped, And in 568 00:34:11,321 --> 00:34:16,321 Speaker 6: that case she had been able to see the offender 569 00:34:16,361 --> 00:34:19,801 Speaker 6: who abducted her. She could see under her blindfold which 570 00:34:19,841 --> 00:34:22,361 Speaker 6: wasn't on properly while she was in the car being 571 00:34:22,441 --> 00:34:27,961 Speaker 6: driven down to Chelsea. And later on during Operation Spectrum 572 00:34:28,001 --> 00:34:31,801 Speaker 6: in nineteen ninety one she was reinterviewed and she was 573 00:34:31,841 --> 00:34:37,841 Speaker 6: an excellent witness and she provided police with a police 574 00:34:38,401 --> 00:34:43,441 Speaker 6: digital artist created an image of this man that she 575 00:34:43,641 --> 00:34:47,881 Speaker 6: was very confident she could remember how he looked. Incredibly, 576 00:34:48,561 --> 00:34:53,921 Speaker 6: this image looks it is the speaking image of Christopher Crowder. Now, 577 00:34:55,521 --> 00:35:00,201 Speaker 6: of course, you know something will say that you know 578 00:35:00,361 --> 00:35:04,841 Speaker 6: very different mos because crowd himself for all of the 579 00:35:05,081 --> 00:35:09,761 Speaker 6: fenses we know that he committed or was charged with. 580 00:35:10,441 --> 00:35:14,201 Speaker 6: They tended to be very young girl's age between three 581 00:35:14,561 --> 00:35:18,881 Speaker 6: or four and say nine years of age, whereas in 582 00:35:18,921 --> 00:35:21,721 Speaker 6: this case we've got a grown woman and she's blindfolded. 583 00:35:21,721 --> 00:35:24,801 Speaker 6: Whereas Crowd the pigs girls off the street, he doesn't 584 00:35:24,921 --> 00:35:30,361 Speaker 6: hide his appearance to them. But one of the reasons 585 00:35:30,361 --> 00:35:34,081 Speaker 6: why he would target these young girls in the first 586 00:35:34,081 --> 00:35:38,041 Speaker 6: place was that they couldn't testify in court being so 587 00:35:38,241 --> 00:35:42,321 Speaker 6: young at the time, the testimony did not stand up in. 588 00:35:42,241 --> 00:35:46,641 Speaker 1: Court, So he knew that, you know. 589 00:35:48,121 --> 00:35:50,881 Speaker 6: Yeah, so there's still a belief that it's possible he 590 00:35:50,961 --> 00:35:55,761 Speaker 6: could have been mister Kruele pre Carmen Chan Well, that's. 591 00:35:55,681 --> 00:35:59,081 Speaker 2: Right, because I think what we've established in our investigations 592 00:35:59,201 --> 00:36:01,801 Speaker 2: about mister Krule is that it's not just one offender, 593 00:36:02,041 --> 00:36:03,881 Speaker 2: it's more than one. We have to get off that track. 594 00:36:03,921 --> 00:36:07,001 Speaker 2: But I think what you've just laid out though, really 595 00:36:07,401 --> 00:36:13,641 Speaker 2: demonstrates the depth of Crowthers offending and really how police 596 00:36:13,801 --> 00:36:16,281 Speaker 2: didn't get it right, the fact that he managed to 597 00:36:16,281 --> 00:36:19,681 Speaker 2: get only a minimal sentence for all those attacks from 598 00:36:19,721 --> 00:36:22,881 Speaker 2: the mid eighties through the early nineties. And I mean 599 00:36:22,921 --> 00:36:26,241 Speaker 2: I was really sad to hear Elise and particularly her 600 00:36:26,321 --> 00:36:31,161 Speaker 2: mum regret that he managed to have his trials aborted 601 00:36:31,681 --> 00:36:34,201 Speaker 2: and the whole thing was finally reduced. So what you've 602 00:36:34,281 --> 00:36:38,961 Speaker 2: really laid out is a serial offender. And I would say, amen, 603 00:36:39,561 --> 00:36:44,081 Speaker 2: that there are more offenses out there, there are more victims. 604 00:36:44,561 --> 00:36:46,881 Speaker 2: This guy didn't stop. He was prolific and as you say, 605 00:36:46,881 --> 00:36:51,161 Speaker 2: he chose kids who couldn't give evidence against him, couldn't 606 00:36:51,201 --> 00:36:52,681 Speaker 2: distinguish him. 607 00:36:53,321 --> 00:36:57,601 Speaker 6: That's right, really brazen, and that nineteen eighty three sixty 608 00:36:57,641 --> 00:37:03,161 Speaker 6: minutes interview you can see that he's gaining pleasure although 609 00:37:03,201 --> 00:37:09,321 Speaker 6: he's acting as a reformed pedophile. He's enjoying the attention 610 00:37:09,561 --> 00:37:15,241 Speaker 6: and his ego is being sort of massage with the attention, 611 00:37:15,481 --> 00:37:15,801 Speaker 6: if you. 612 00:37:15,761 --> 00:37:16,241 Speaker 1: Know what I mean. 613 00:37:17,521 --> 00:37:19,281 Speaker 2: Well, I mean thank you for that. I really appreciate 614 00:37:19,321 --> 00:37:21,961 Speaker 2: your time and giving us the background. There that's him 615 00:37:22,041 --> 00:37:24,361 Speaker 2: and gunning from Melbourne Marvels. You can read more about 616 00:37:24,401 --> 00:37:27,601 Speaker 2: his research in the crowd and other offenders who may 617 00:37:27,641 --> 00:37:30,921 Speaker 2: be involved in mister Crulsbury. There's probably more evidence out there. 618 00:37:30,921 --> 00:37:33,481 Speaker 2: I think there's going to be more people who suffered 619 00:37:33,481 --> 00:37:36,321 Speaker 2: at the hands of Crowther, and I'd be interested to 620 00:37:36,321 --> 00:37:39,801 Speaker 2: hear from anybody else who has unresolved cases that could 621 00:37:39,841 --> 00:37:43,601 Speaker 2: be attributed to him. He is one of Australia's all 622 00:37:43,681 --> 00:37:47,961 Speaker 2: time heenous monsters. It's just a shame that he didn't 623 00:37:47,961 --> 00:37:50,521 Speaker 2: do a lot more jail time, which would have saved 624 00:37:50,961 --> 00:37:53,641 Speaker 2: other people from similar ordeals. I've got to thank Elesa 625 00:37:53,641 --> 00:37:56,521 Speaker 2: and Jenna for coming in today to discuss what was 626 00:37:56,561 --> 00:38:00,161 Speaker 2: a very very near miss. So thanks once again. So 627 00:38:00,241 --> 00:38:03,361 Speaker 2: if you have any information about this guy or anybody else, 628 00:38:03,361 --> 00:38:07,001 Speaker 2: frankly core crime Stoppers one one hundred, Triple three, Triple zero, 629 00:38:07,601 --> 00:38:10,161 Speaker 2: or you can email me directly Adam Shanned writer at 630 00:38:10,241 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 2: gmail dot com. This has been real crime with Adam Shann. 631 00:38:13,561 --> 00:38:15,801 Speaker 2: I'm your host, Adam Shanned. Thanks for listening.