Speaker 1: I'll get our team. It's the project that you. It's Kelly,
Speaker 1: Kelly Smith, Tiffany and Cook. Kelly. How are you.
Speaker 2: I'm good, I'm good. Thank you. Nice to see you both.
Speaker 1: Nice to be seen. What's going on over at Smith Central?
Speaker 2: Smith Central? Well, look, work is ramping up. It's the
Speaker 2: end of the year, so there's lots of things going
Speaker 2: on there, and I've been doing homework. I've prepared for
Speaker 2: today's episode, which is a bit unusual for me. I'm
Speaker 2: not just relying on overthinking. I jotted a few things
Speaker 2: to have.
Speaker 1: Well, look at you like a bloody prep gangster, just
Speaker 1: getting ready with the Imagine if you'd spent all that
Speaker 1: time writing out your questions and they were no good.
Speaker 2: Look, there's still that possibility. I haven't read them to
Speaker 2: you yet.
Speaker 1: I'm sure they're brilliant. I'm sure they're brilliant. Before we
Speaker 1: jump in, how have you been watch news on Planet You?
Speaker 1: I saw you the other day. You walked into the
Speaker 1: cafe I was in. You look like a bloody you
Speaker 1: know what you look like, and I mean this is
Speaker 1: a compliment. You look like like about a fifteen year
Speaker 1: old boy who was about to go and do graffiti
Speaker 1: somewhere that's kind of what you look like. I was
Speaker 1: beaming for that.
Speaker 2: So I'm glad I hit. I'm glad I nailed it. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I don't mean I don't mean you because obviously a woman,
Speaker 1: but it just the outfit. It was like very cool.
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, had that kind of street vibe about it.
Speaker 1: So well done you.
Speaker 2: Thanks. I won't tag offense now, So that's all thank you.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, let's let's start. What do you got
Speaker 1: for me? What have you been thinking about? What's what's
Speaker 1: what's been kind of cart wheeling around that brain of yours?
Speaker 2: Well, this is from a few episodes that I've been
Speaker 2: listening to of yours, and I thought, how do I
Speaker 2: kind of group these questions together? So there's three questions
Speaker 2: all up, and I kind of thought of them as
Speaker 2: being like the in between bits of a growth journey.
Speaker 2: And what I've been noticing in the podcast that I
Speaker 2: listened to, and I think you touched on this last
Speaker 2: week when you were talking to Ian, how it's either
Speaker 2: a kind of hey, welcome, you know, here's where you start,
Speaker 2: Here's how you take the first step of developing, of learning,
Speaker 2: of growing, or it's like Hey, here's a textbook. There's
Speaker 2: no kind of in between of hey, you're progressing, this
Speaker 2: is what happens at X point, this is what happens
Speaker 2: after this, And so kind of lumped in with that is, well,
Speaker 2: what happens when you get to a point of I'm
Speaker 2: ready to release a certain part of my life. I'm
Speaker 2: ready to give up something that's not aligning with me.
Speaker 2: Is it normal to feel loss, sadness, potentially grief.
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: And then from that point, how do you get to
Speaker 2: and this comes from your episode where you were talking
Speaker 2: about your shit week, how do you kind of stop?
Speaker 2: I guess the wind in your sales enough to go?
Speaker 2: How am I able to be the best version of
Speaker 2: myself for the people around me?
Speaker 1: Wow? There's a lot in that. So I'm just going
Speaker 1: to tackle bits at a time. I'm sure I'll forget
Speaker 1: some of it, but so bring me back. So when
Speaker 1: you said learning, I'm thinking about, like I say to people,
Speaker 1: what do you mean by learning? Because there's going to
Speaker 1: school and memorizing stuff that you never use. Maybe that's learning,
Speaker 1: but to me, it's really just memorizing shit you never use,
Speaker 1: you know. So I've got to like, once I learn
Speaker 1: something if I have to study something for a test,
Speaker 1: I almost never need to use it again. But I
Speaker 1: also never really forget it. So I can tell you,
Speaker 1: like the five adductor muscles that are inside the FEMA, right,
Speaker 1: which nobody accept me in Australia nose off by heart
Speaker 1: and you'll never that's not true. I'm sure there are
Speaker 1: a bunch of people, but not too many. Right, all
Speaker 1: of these things that I learned for exams and tests
Speaker 1: and stuff. Where I that you go, is that is
Speaker 1: that going to help me navigate life? Or is that
Speaker 1: going to help me grow a learn or evolve or adapt?
Speaker 1: Is that that kind of it's really just almost downloading knowledge.
Speaker 1: But for me, learning is growth. For me, learning has changed.
Speaker 1: For me, learning is adapting, it's it's evolution, it's transformab
Speaker 1: that's learning. That's and so I think I think that
Speaker 1: probably academic learning is held into high a regard. I
Speaker 1: think it's on this kind of almost this egotistical pedestal
Speaker 1: of which sounds funny for bloke doing a PhD. By
Speaker 1: the way, if you've done a PhD, well done. I
Speaker 1: think it's a great achievement. I think getting any qualification
Speaker 1: or degree or diploma is a great achievement. I'm not
Speaker 1: saying these are not good. But we all know people
Speaker 1: who are fucking brilliant who finished school at year nine
Speaker 1: or ten, who have incredible knowledge and wisdom and intelligence
Speaker 1: and insight and understanding, who maybe couldn't even explain it
Speaker 1: to you in an academics or a scientific kind of sense,
Speaker 1: but they know the answers to question. They can solve
Speaker 1: problems in real time. You know, they can build rapport
Speaker 1: and connection and trust and respect with people despite the
Speaker 1: fact that they've never studied human behavior per se. They've
Speaker 1: never studied communication or metaaccuracy or metaperception like I have.
Speaker 1: They but they're just fucking great at reading the room.
Speaker 1: They're great at reading people. And that's partly a skill
Speaker 1: and partly a gift, and partly something that they've developed
Speaker 1: over time. So and what I found interesting about Ian was,
Speaker 1: and I have an interesting factoid that I can share
Speaker 1: with you about him, because he was explaining to me
Speaker 1: this whole kind of paradigm that he's operating within, and
Speaker 1: that he's developed this model for working with primarily men
Speaker 1: and then down the track women around mental health, and
Speaker 1: everything that he said was really smart, really evolved and
Speaker 1: really aware and really informed. And this doesn't matter at all.
Speaker 1: But he doesn't have any in inverted commas qualifications in
Speaker 1: that space, which just proves that. You know, now, that
Speaker 1: doesn't prove that being qualified in that space is redundant
Speaker 1: or not good. It doesn't mean that at all. It
Speaker 1: just means that there are people out there who have
Speaker 1: got actually great insight, knowledge and awareness who can probably
Speaker 1: help people even with psychological and emotional issues, who aren't
Speaker 1: in inverted commas qualified. And I just think qualifications are nice,
Speaker 1: but don't think that that means that somebody that doesn't
Speaker 1: have a qualification in that particular field doesn't have insight
Speaker 1: or wisdom regarding that particular area of human behavior or
Speaker 1: performance or whatever it is. I will tell you something
Speaker 1: interesting about him, and you wouldn't pick this up by
Speaker 1: listening to it. His dad when we recorded that was
Speaker 1: dying and he was finishing the podcast and going to
Speaker 1: the airport to get on a plane. I haven't spoken
Speaker 1: to him since. I'm talking to him tomorrow the next
Speaker 1: day I'm doing his show, So I don't know what
Speaker 1: the outcome was because I gave him some space, But
Speaker 1: like his dad was literally at death's door when we
Speaker 1: were recording that, and I went, wow, this is somebody
Speaker 1: walking their talk, you know. And he wasn't disconnected and
Speaker 1: he wasn't pretending it wasn't happening, and it was fully aware,
Speaker 1: but just and I gave I said, mate, let's not
Speaker 1: do it. Let's like we'd do it another day. Like
Speaker 1: it's like, well, I have this time, so let's do it,
Speaker 1: you know. So yeah, I found him very impressive. Sorry,
Speaker 1: I feel like I didn't answer some of your question.
Speaker 2: No, And I think that's good though, because and he
Speaker 2: was he was really impressive. And you know, I messaged
Speaker 2: you and said, you know, even though his content was
Speaker 2: more aimed at dudes, like I got so much out
Speaker 2: of it. And I think that really goes to what
Speaker 2: I was asking about, like the in between. So you
Speaker 2: don't necessarily have to be, as you say, qualified in something,
Speaker 2: but there does seem to be a gap in is
Speaker 2: it content or what people are sharing in terms of
Speaker 2: it feels like you either need to be at the
Speaker 2: beginning or so far down towards the end of a
Speaker 2: growth process that the middle part is almost overlooked. And
Speaker 2: with what you just said about him, like that's absolutely
Speaker 2: you know, being able to kind of stop and go, well,
Speaker 2: how can I be the best version of me for
Speaker 2: who needs me? Which is the other point that you
Speaker 2: were talking about as well. So yeah, that answered it.
Speaker 1: I mean, like, I never say I'm good at anything,
Speaker 1: because I'm not naturally you know, everyone's heard me bang
Speaker 1: on about what a shit athlete I was, and how
Speaker 1: genetically gifted I wasn't, and how academically brilliant I wasn't,
Speaker 1: and all of that. But the one thing that I
Speaker 1: was naturally quite good at, there's only one, and that
Speaker 1: was what I'm doing right now, which is communication, you know,
Speaker 1: And that's a pretty good thing to be naturally gifted at.
Speaker 1: But I remember doing things as a kid where I
Speaker 1: had no idea of what I would like. I didn't
Speaker 1: have a strategy, I didn't have any I didn't have
Speaker 1: any rationale behind what I was doing. Nobody had taught
Speaker 1: me or coached me. I wasn't educated in building rapport, connection, trust,
Speaker 1: you know, communicating effectively, reading the room, understanding anything about
Speaker 1: theory of mind, how someone else is thinking, understanding the
Speaker 1: context of objective and subjective. I didn't even know what
Speaker 1: those fucking terms were, but I was operating with that
Speaker 1: awareness and that kind of understanding before I'd done one
Speaker 1: second of research or study in the field of psychology,
Speaker 1: you know. So I definitely think that we you know,
Speaker 1: we all have different gifts and we all have different
Speaker 1: kinds of intelligence. There are some people who go to
Speaker 1: art school for ten years and their art is you know,
Speaker 1: six out of ten. And then there are some people
Speaker 1: like my dad, who won multiple art shows, never got
Speaker 1: taught anything in his life, never had a lesson, and
Speaker 1: would paint a picture of for example, tiff and it
Speaker 1: would look like a fucking photograph. I'm like, how do
Speaker 1: you do that? And seescapes and landscapes and animals and
Speaker 1: so his stuff was very realistic, not surrealism, and not abstract.
Speaker 1: But nobody ever taught him or trained him, but he
Speaker 1: just had this kind of intelligence, this creative intelligence. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I think both. I think acquiring knowledge and just putting
Speaker 1: it in your cognitive kind of filing cabinet and then
Speaker 1: not using it. I don't know, I don't really see
Speaker 1: that as learning. I see that as just downloading, you know, data,
Speaker 1: and I don't see the value in that. I don't
Speaker 1: see the value in knowing things that you don't operationalize
Speaker 1: or you don't use in some way like what's the
Speaker 1: point you know? I mean, yeah, maybe maybe, but in
Speaker 1: general terms, I want to learn things that are going
Speaker 1: to help me do better, create better, serve people better,
Speaker 1: navigate life better. You know?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Do you? And this is the question for both
Speaker 2: of you in terms of that, like do you find
Speaker 2: that with what it is that you either listen to, read,
Speaker 2: whatch or engage with? Like do you dip in and
Speaker 2: out when it's not serving that purpose for you? Like
Speaker 2: I find I can be on a streak with certain
Speaker 2: podcasts or books or something and then just kind of go, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: this is it's I need. Like a few weeks ago,
Speaker 2: I thought I need something I can just laugh at
Speaker 2: because this is all getting a bit deep and a
Speaker 2: bit too a bit too brainy. So yeah, do you
Speaker 2: guys find that?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean I've said many times I listen to Rogan,
Speaker 1: and I've listened to Rogan since before I started a show, right,
Speaker 1: So I listened to Rogan when he had very very
Speaker 1: few listeners. And you know, some of his guests like
Speaker 1: my fire and some don't. It's not that it's not
Speaker 1: a good conversation or but it just it's not for me.
Speaker 1: And I understand that people dip in and out of
Speaker 1: the You project. I would too if I was a listener.
Speaker 1: There are some people that listen to every episode what
Speaker 1: the fuck is wrong with You? But I love you nonetheless.
Speaker 1: And and then there are some that you know, depending
Speaker 1: on what the topic is or who the person is.
Speaker 1: I listened to a guy the other day called Palma Lucky,
Speaker 1: that's his first name, Palma Lucky l U c k
Speaker 1: e Y, who created a thing called Oculus Rift, which
Speaker 1: were they're kind of one of the first versions of
Speaker 1: the best version of VR goggles. So he's a tech guru.
Speaker 1: So by the time he was either late teens or
Speaker 1: early twenties, he was a billionaire, right, And I know
Speaker 1: fuck all about technology, as both of you know and
Speaker 1: our listeners know. And he was in and in our
Speaker 1: builds weapons for the US government. And he's still young,
Speaker 1: Like he's a young dude, right, And I listened to
Speaker 1: three hours and I was just fascinated with how he thinks.
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated with how people think, how their brain works,
Speaker 1: what excites them, how they And this dude was like
Speaker 1: if you saw him down the street, and I mean
Speaker 1: this with love and respect. He's not an impressed It's
Speaker 1: not like, oh my god, look at that amazing human.
Speaker 1: He's just a regular dude doing crazy shit, who's curious
Speaker 1: and obviously pretty brilliant and all of that. But yeah,
Speaker 1: some of the things that I listened to, like the content,
Speaker 1: what they were talking about, how he develops and designs
Speaker 1: and builds technology and the roles that that technology can
Speaker 1: serve for the general public and the military and all.
Speaker 1: That's fascinating. But just listening to him, how he you know,
Speaker 1: how he started a company when he was thirteen and fourteen,
Speaker 1: and how he just I love that stuff. I love stories,
Speaker 1: stories that I can learn about the person, you know,
Speaker 1: through the story, and also just listening to how people
Speaker 1: think and how they function and how they navigate life.
Speaker 1: Because I found him fascinating and he's nothing like me,
Speaker 1: so not like so much more interesting than me. But yeah,
Speaker 1: but I jump in and out of certain shows. I
Speaker 1: don't listen often to what people think they think I
Speaker 1: might be all like rah rah, inspiration, motivation, psychology. I don't.
Speaker 1: I really don't listen to very much of that at all.
Speaker 1: I love I love stories. I love I love humor.
Speaker 1: I love. I love listening to stuff that I do
Speaker 1: not understand or know about. Sometimes it depends. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: just listened to a whole series of books, The Terminal List,
Speaker 1: and before that, the whole series of The Gray Man,
Speaker 1: just about Tier one operators, and especially The Terminal List
Speaker 1: that's written by a guy called Jack Carr who was
Speaker 1: a Navy seal. So all of the all of the language,
Speaker 1: and all of the technical kind of stuff and all
Speaker 1: the warfare stuff and the tactical stuff is very, very
Speaker 1: realistic and insightful. And it was like just getting a,
Speaker 1: you know, an undergrad degree in how the military works,
Speaker 1: because I listened to I don't know what it is,
Speaker 1: twelve books and they're all like, you know, fifteen hours
Speaker 1: twelve times fifteen is one hundred and eighty that's one
Speaker 1: hundred and eighty hours of education, you know. I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: and it fucking fascinated me. And I just think, firstly,
Speaker 1: and it's ironic because I hate war. War was fucked.
Speaker 1: I hate it that humans kill humans. I hate it
Speaker 1: that we haven't sorted that out yet. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, it's the way that it works and the
Speaker 1: way that you know, like like it or not, Australia
Speaker 1: has to have an army and a navy and a
Speaker 1: defense force because if we don't, we get attacked, we're fucked.
Speaker 1: So that's the way the world works. So you can't go, oh,
Speaker 1: we're not doing defense because we're good. Luck with that. Well,
Speaker 1: pretty soon you're going to be overrun. But nonetheless, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: I digress, but I loved it. It's interesting.
Speaker 2: So just on a tangent of that, then, like, how
Speaker 2: did how did you then, like compare that to listening
Speaker 2: to the dude who created the oculus and is now
Speaker 2: designing weapons like that would have been quite an interesting contrast.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So, I mean, these are just things that
Speaker 1: I don't really know a lot about and I'm fascinated with.
Speaker 1: I was going to say smart people, but I don't
Speaker 1: necessarily mean IQ smart. I just mean creative people, clever people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so it's that, you know, there's no sometimes there's
Speaker 1: no rhyme or reason with what I find interesting, and
Speaker 1: people would be maybe surprised by the stuff that will
Speaker 1: keep me engrossed for hours at a time. But yeah,
Speaker 1: and then I'll you know, like I listened the other
Speaker 1: day to Aubrey Marcus talked to a guy who used
Speaker 1: to be a Christian. Right, this is how different is this?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: So he was a Christian and now he's a follow
Speaker 1: of Jesus, Right, And you go, well, what's the difference,
Speaker 1: And he's like, well, he's actually quite anti Christian now,
Speaker 1: in the sense that this dude feels like a lot
Speaker 1: of Christians worship the Bible more than God. And then
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, this is an interesting conversation. I don't
Speaker 1: know if I agree or disagree, but I'm interested. So
Speaker 1: then I listened to two hours of him explaining the
Speaker 1: difference between his kind of theology or philosophy and how
Speaker 1: it came to be. His dad was a pastor. I
Speaker 1: think he was a pastor in a church himself or
Speaker 1: a youth pastor. He grew up in a very Christian,
Speaker 1: very theologically like profound family and environment, and he kind
Speaker 1: of did a left turn. And he's still all about
Speaker 1: God and love and compassion, but he walked practically and
Speaker 1: strategically through the bits of the Bible that don't really
Speaker 1: make sense. And the problem is that when you are
Speaker 1: completely intertwined with an idea or a theology or a
Speaker 1: philosophy or a dogma or a practice or a way
Speaker 1: of eating or a way of living or whatever. When
Speaker 1: that becomes your identity, then it's almost impossible for you
Speaker 1: to learn new things regarding that area of whatever unless
Speaker 1: people are endorsing your current thoughts or your current beliefs,
Speaker 1: because when they attack or question or even are unsure
Speaker 1: about you know that thing, well, then you feel like
Speaker 1: they're attacking you because they're questioning your identity. And so
Speaker 1: for me, I try really hard to listen to things
Speaker 1: that I don't agree with or I once didn't agree with,
Speaker 1: or might challenge my thinking. So, you know, for example,
Speaker 1: Matthew Mark Luke, John the first four books of the Bible,
Speaker 1: or all Gospels. Then after Max there's a book of
Speaker 1: called Acts, and then there's a book Romans, so Romans, Corinthians, Galations, Ephesians,
Speaker 1: Ephesians one and two, Philippians, Thessalonians. All of these books
Speaker 1: that followed the Gospels were written by a guy called
Speaker 1: Saint Paul. Right, he probably heard that he's written these
Speaker 1: written by St. Paul's Letter to the Romans, Saint Paul's
Speaker 1: Letter to the Corinthians. And it didn't really I never
Speaker 1: really thought deeply about the fact that when Jesus died,
Speaker 1: Paul had never even met him. So this dude that
Speaker 1: didn't meet Jesus was writing all about Jesus years after
Speaker 1: Jesus died. And I'm like, yeah, that's actually a good
Speaker 1: point that this dude's making. Now, I'm not saying that
Speaker 1: so it's all bullshit. I'm not saying that at all.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, Oh, so, Saint Paul apparently met Jesus
Speaker 1: on the road to Damascus, which is obviously a place
Speaker 1: back in the day, and he had a vision, he
Speaker 1: had an encounter via a vision of Jesus and anyway,
Speaker 1: this whole thing, right, and so he had a vision,
Speaker 1: then he had this personal experience blah blah, blah blah,
Speaker 1: and all of these subsequent books came out of this. Right. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I know, I'm fucking banging on and everybody's probably falling asleep.
Speaker 1: But this was quite confronting to me because it really
Speaker 1: challenged my thinking and ideology and theology. And it's in
Speaker 1: those moments where people go, actually, Craig, what you thought
Speaker 1: could be wrong, your beliefs about this could be wrong,
Speaker 1: and because like what this and it's not like, oh
Speaker 1: so I'm jumping ships. Now, I'm just like, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: listening and I'm considering. So, you know, the challenge of
Speaker 1: being truly open minded and truly teachable and truly objective,
Speaker 1: it's pretty impossible, right because the Craig experience is a
Speaker 1: subjective one. But at least having an awareness of your bias,
Speaker 1: having an awareness of your echo chamber. For me, that's
Speaker 1: the start of being more aware and more objective and
Speaker 1: more open. Steps down off soapbox.
Speaker 2: That's interesting. So a friend of mine a while ago,
Speaker 2: when there was a big election happening, I was very
Speaker 2: set on I'm voting for this party because that one
Speaker 2: over there I do not agree with, I will never
Speaker 2: agree with, can't stand them, won't even look at them.
Speaker 2: And he said to me, well, how do you know
Speaker 2: if you're not actually immersing yourself in what it is
Speaker 2: they stand for or what it is they're saying. And
Speaker 2: so just do me a favor and maybe follow a
Speaker 2: couple of their accounts online and see what it is
Speaker 2: like the followers of that side of the political spectrum
Speaker 2: of saying. And so I did, and it was a
Speaker 2: really good point because I had been incredibly closed off. Thankfully,
Speaker 2: it just confirmed that I didn't want to be leading
Speaker 2: into that, and that was good. But I also do
Speaker 2: wonder like if this is part of the same process of,
Speaker 2: you know, if you're open enough to take not taking
Speaker 2: on other opinions, but at least hearing them. Is this
Speaker 2: also kind of the same process of saying, that's not
Speaker 2: aligning with me anymore and I need to either stop
Speaker 2: or remove or limit. And I heard the other day
Speaker 2: it was one of the chicks from Master Chef and
Speaker 2: she's had this huge kind of body transformation and people
Speaker 2: were asking her about it, and she was very much
Speaker 2: against talking about it, and then finally sat down and
Speaker 2: she's done this interview and she said, well, you know,
Speaker 2: I've given up you know, a number of things in
Speaker 2: my life, and one of them is alcohol. And she said,
Speaker 2: you know, I made the first time I kind of
Speaker 2: was aware of how I felt about it was I
Speaker 2: made this big platter of cheese and I poured myself
Speaker 2: a drink that wasn't booze, and I cried because I
Speaker 2: felt like I was grieving former version of me. And
Speaker 2: she's a fair way down the track now where she's
Speaker 2: like it doesn't bother her. But I just thought Wow,
Speaker 2: that's it must be a pretty confronting moment to be
Speaker 2: able to say that's not serving me and I need
Speaker 2: to remove it from my life.
Speaker 1: Well, that's great awareness and that's courage. You know. That's
Speaker 1: that's hard. It's like the idea of change is not
Speaker 1: the same as the reality. It's not the same as
Speaker 1: you know, like wanting to be different or do different
Speaker 1: or look different or produce different results is easy. It
Speaker 1: takes takes no effort because you just want it. You know,
Speaker 1: You're not necessarily making a decision, not necessarily sacrificing anything,
Speaker 1: You're not necessarily taking any action. So yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: that's the ever present challenge for people in the on
Speaker 1: the personal growth, personal development, self help, whatever you want
Speaker 1: to call it, call it journey. Is that Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: of course it's hard. Yeah, of course it's giving up booze.
Speaker 1: I've never drunk, so but I can relate with other things.
Speaker 1: You know, for me to change my relationship with food
Speaker 1: took more than a decade to do it properly, because
Speaker 1: I'd change and then i'd stop, and then i'd start
Speaker 1: and stop. I'd good, Oh look at me, I'm fucking amazing,
Speaker 1: And now I'm shit, and because I fell off the wagon,
Speaker 1: the mysterious mythical wagon that everyone thought. You know, it's like, nay,
Speaker 1: didn't you just made different choices and put different shit
Speaker 1: in your face? And it's one hundred percent no, fuck you,
Speaker 1: it's the wagon. You know. It's like it's hard, it's
Speaker 1: hard to go I'm the problem. I'm the problem. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like, well, how did you? You know? And that's
Speaker 1: not self loathing, that's self awareness. Now that's not to
Speaker 1: say that everybody's problems are all self created. It's not
Speaker 1: to say that, but it is to say that there
Speaker 1: are many times when we are not producing good outcomes
Speaker 1: because we are not making good decisions and we are
Speaker 1: not doing good things, and we have to just own that.
Speaker 1: You go, well, that's me. I'm not a victim. I'm
Speaker 1: just the person who made bad choices and did bad things.
Speaker 1: And that's not me beating myself up. That's me just
Speaker 1: acknowledging what is. And so I don't even know what
Speaker 1: you asked me, but it's like it is. It's like,
Speaker 1: this is the challenge. And I think also one more
Speaker 1: thing that I was going to say is being being
Speaker 1: open enough to like you did with the political stuff
Speaker 1: to go. Oh, let me let me look into that. Now.
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean I'm looking into it because I'm thinking
Speaker 1: of making a change. I'm just looking into it because
Speaker 1: I want to understand it. You know, you can't overcome
Speaker 1: what you don't understand, right, you can't. You can't criticize
Speaker 1: something that you don't understand. And one of the mistakes
Speaker 1: that people make, I believe your honors, is that people
Speaker 1: think that understanding something is condoning something right, which it isn't.
Speaker 1: It's like, I understand lots of horrible shit. I don't
Speaker 1: condone any horrible shit. I wish horrible shit didn't happen.
Speaker 1: I wish there was no domestic violence. I wish there
Speaker 1: was I don't even want to list the things because
Speaker 1: I don't like even saying it, But all the evil
Speaker 1: shit that goes on, I wish it didn't go on.
Speaker 1: But we don't live in my wishes. We live in
Speaker 1: a world that is full of evil shit and sometimes
Speaker 1: evil people. It's also full of great things and great people.
Speaker 1: But hey, let's be real, let's be practical. There are
Speaker 1: horrible fucking people doing horrible shit right and us putting
Speaker 1: our head in the sand and not trying to understand it.
Speaker 1: Like we can't overcome what we don't understand. We can't
Speaker 1: conquer what we don't understand, so we need to be equipped.
Speaker 1: It's like if you're we spoke about war earlier, If
Speaker 1: you're going to war, you better fucking know what your
Speaker 1: enemy is doing, because how the fuck can you anticipate
Speaker 1: what's going to happen. So, if Tip's going to go
Speaker 1: fight an opponent, she would be an idiot it to
Speaker 1: do no prep, to watch no tape, to not understand,
Speaker 1: you know, whether or not they're a southpoor or you
Speaker 1: know whatever. Right, she needs to have some insight into
Speaker 1: what she's contending with, who she's fighting, so that she
Speaker 1: can go in with a plan. Right, And this is
Speaker 1: just life. You need to like you're going to deal
Speaker 1: with sociopaths. So I think it's it's prudent for all
Speaker 1: of us to understand sociopathy, not because we want to
Speaker 1: become one or we think it's cool. But when you
Speaker 1: meet a narcissist or a sociopath, or a bully or
Speaker 1: a cunt as I call them clinically, we'll just go
Speaker 1: with kunt. You know what's going on and you are
Speaker 1: at least a little bit more prepared. Steps down off
Speaker 1: soapbox again, what's a south poor.
Speaker 2: Left hand in boxing? Very annoying, very annoying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, good question though, Legit, there's probably there's probably a
Speaker 1: bunch of listeners going, what's the southboard? So they're all going,
Speaker 1: thank you, Kelly.
Speaker 2: Well, there we go. I was going to ask what's no,
Speaker 2: I won't ask what's that?
Speaker 1: What's a gun? Well? There are the three things that
Speaker 1: I that's the umbrella term for sociopaths and bullies and
Speaker 1: narcissists clinically known as a group as cunts. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a little known fact. But I've almost got a PhD,
Speaker 1: so trust me.
Speaker 2: Great, great, there we go. Now we're in textbook territory,
Speaker 2: so we've.
Speaker 1: We're definitely not Oh god, imagine if Monash kicked me
Speaker 1: out now fuck so close to the finish line. What
Speaker 1: happened to harps? Well, he was talking about this umbrella
Speaker 1: of psychological terms and we used a C word when cool? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: come on, what do you got?
Speaker 2: Well it does still make me think about the whole
Speaker 2: like because and like I really am hesitant to call
Speaker 2: it a journey, but you guys both know that I've
Speaker 2: been on this self improvement growth process, and I dip
Speaker 2: into a lot I tap into both of you. But
Speaker 2: it seems like there's a lot of self help or
Speaker 2: you know, self growth professionals that will go, Okay, yep,
Speaker 2: here's where we start, this is what you first need
Speaker 2: to do. Here's even a little handbook that you might
Speaker 2: fill out, and then you get to the end and
Speaker 2: it's like, great, yay, you're fully grown. Now you're able
Speaker 2: to go out into the world. But there does and
Speaker 2: I don't know whether it's just from what it is
Speaker 2: that I listen to or whether anybody else has this experience,
Speaker 2: but there doesn't seem to be enough credit for people
Speaker 2: who are maybe halfway or three quarters or I mean,
Speaker 2: it's always a continual process, but there doesn't seem to
Speaker 2: be enough check in around this is what to expect, yeah, right, Like,
Speaker 2: I don't know whether that's just something that I'm experiencing
Speaker 2: based on what I'm tapping into, or if there are
Speaker 2: those elements, or is it just is it just really
Speaker 2: clever marketing from a lot of people where they kind
Speaker 2: of go, hey, hey, over here, you know a new
Speaker 2: listener or you know a new person I can help
Speaker 2: you start, and then they kind of leave a gap there,
Speaker 2: intentionally hoping that more people are just going to jump
Speaker 2: on board.
Speaker 1: I think everyone's on the journey. Nobody's there. And the
Speaker 1: person who tells you that they've arrived, that they've got
Speaker 1: their shit together, they've got it all figured out, do
Speaker 1: not fucking listen to that person, That's for sure. I mean,
Speaker 1: you two, I'm sure have met successful people. I've met people,
Speaker 1: lots of people that were in in a way very
Speaker 1: successful and legit done lots of great things, and in
Speaker 1: other ways in other parts of their lives kind of
Speaker 1: fuck ups, you know. And that's okay. I'm a fuck
Speaker 1: up in some things as well. I'm not throwing anyone
Speaker 1: under the bus. I think that, you know, like, the
Speaker 1: human experience is not about being good at work. It's
Speaker 1: not about all making money. It's not about having the
Speaker 1: best relationship, it's not about having It's about a multitude
Speaker 1: of things. It's like even when you even when you
Speaker 1: get to I was talking to somebody about this the
Speaker 1: other day, who's God bless or you know, spiritual woo
Speaker 1: woo and fucking and the real deal. But I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's cool, But you still got to pay the bills
Speaker 1: because we don't live in a concept like we don't
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean, You've still got to
Speaker 1: still got to stop at red life, still got to
Speaker 1: pay bills. You still you still need to work within
Speaker 1: the parameters of the practicality of the human experience. And
Speaker 1: you know, put petrol in your car, and pay registration,
Speaker 1: and buy food, and educate your kids and buy choose
Speaker 1: and you know, pay attention and like. So it's I'm
Speaker 1: all for having a spiritual life. I'm all for making
Speaker 1: enough money to support your kids and educate your kids.
Speaker 1: I'm all for being respectful, and I'm all for building
Speaker 1: a business if that's your jam. I'm all for going
Speaker 1: on the personal development journey if that's you. But it's
Speaker 1: not a thing. It's a multitude of things. Like we
Speaker 1: could measure TIFF's life, your life, and my life now,
Speaker 1: depending on the metric or the area of focus, Tiff
Speaker 1: would come out way above you and me with some things.
Speaker 1: You'd come out way above me and Tiff with other things,
Speaker 1: and I'd come out above both you with some things,
Speaker 1: depending on how we evaluate success or competence or you know,
Speaker 1: I'm like well, it's like, I know lots of people who,
Speaker 1: from the outside looking in, have ticked a lot of
Speaker 1: you know, they're successful in that they are financially secure,
Speaker 1: they own lots of things. They drive an amazing car,
Speaker 1: they live in an amazing house, they've got it torific brand.
Speaker 1: They're pretty, or they're handsome, or they're jacked, or they're
Speaker 1: that's good and none of that is bad. But that
Speaker 1: doesn't ensure anything on a psychological or emotional level, or
Speaker 1: a spiritual level, or a happiness level. It just means
Speaker 1: they've got lots of shit and well done, you know.
Speaker 1: But our world is very much geod or our culture
Speaker 1: or society, perhaps more accurately, is very much focused on
Speaker 1: the concept of success as equating to what everyone can see.
Speaker 1: It's like, can you see it? Yep? Can you see
Speaker 1: how many followers I've got? Can you see what I
Speaker 1: look like? Can you see how many photos of me
Speaker 1: I've put on Instagram which are essentially the same photo
Speaker 1: of the same person. That always that makes me sad
Speaker 1: when I see people who there's a thousand photos on
Speaker 1: their Instagram feed or their page or whatever the fuck
Speaker 1: you call it. A nine hundred and ninety eight are
Speaker 1: of them elves. Well, if they're not desperately looking for
Speaker 1: approval and validation and acceptance, tell me what the fuck
Speaker 1: is going on, right, Because their form of success is
Speaker 1: about getting people to look at them and approve of
Speaker 1: them and give them whatever feedback or praise or And
Speaker 1: I'm not criticizing them, I understand it. This is I'm
Speaker 1: coming from a bloke who was insecure and wanted to
Speaker 1: build this freaky body. I get it, I get it.
Speaker 1: But you know, okay, so now you've got ten million followers.
Speaker 1: Now you're fucking the best looking thing in the suburb.
Speaker 1: Now now what like even then you go, okay, you're beautiful,
Speaker 1: you're handsome, you're fucking amazingly built or whatever, and you've
Speaker 1: got all of these fans and followers. Sometimes they will
Speaker 1: be the most anxious, the most insecure in the middle
Speaker 1: of all of that external validation that they wanted, because
Speaker 1: none of that external stuff guarantees any kind of positive
Speaker 1: internal reciprocation. You know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Oh totally. Someone else who I listened to, Oshiginsburg I've
Speaker 2: mentioned before, like he's actually spoken about that, and you
Speaker 2: would look at, you know, a dude like that Who's TV.
Speaker 2: You know, he was on so many different shows, and
Speaker 2: underneath the service was you know, riddled with anxiety and
Speaker 2: doing all sorts of crazy shit to try and stay
Speaker 2: calm as a human being. So that concept of the
Speaker 2: visual being the I guess the social marker or the
Speaker 2: indicator of you've done well, it's so it just feels
Speaker 2: like so much bullshit, right, Like it's and I do
Speaker 2: wonder if that's why when So, for instance, the other week,
Speaker 2: when you did your episode about having this shit week,
Speaker 2: which was really so different to anything else that you've done,
Speaker 2: and you said that it went really, really well, and
Speaker 2: then I was looking at the Facebook group and like
Speaker 2: the comments were through the roof, Like it's almost like
Speaker 2: people are really just hanging out for that bit of
Speaker 2: realness and vulnerability that's well beneath the surface.
Speaker 1: Well, you can be both. You can be you know,
Speaker 1: you can be a cataskphe and a superstar in the
Speaker 1: same day. You know. It's like, yeah, you're happy, you're sad,
Speaker 1: you're this that, like one of my posts essentially says,
Speaker 1: and you're brilliant and amazing, and things go great and
Speaker 1: things go shit and then it's lunchtime, right, it's like that, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and like just trying to navigate the human experience. And
Speaker 1: then you know, it's like and without boring everyone, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like, then you find out someone that you love
Speaker 1: is sick, and then all the bullshit that I was
Speaker 1: worried about is meaningless. You're like, oh, well, in that moment,
Speaker 1: it feels meaningless, you know, And then why am I
Speaker 1: investing all this time and emotional energy and mental energy
Speaker 1: in this thing that really, in the context of what matters,
Speaker 1: in the context of my life, in the context of
Speaker 1: who I love, this is so fucking nothing, yet I've
Speaker 1: made it so something. And so yeah, it's been an
Speaker 1: interesting month for me because there's just been you know,
Speaker 1: a bunch of people that I care about doing it
Speaker 1: very hard, and in the middle of that, I want
Speaker 1: to be the best version of me for them. But
Speaker 1: it you know, surprisingly, you know, there's sadness, and there's
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes to be honest with some medical things,
Speaker 1: frustration and all of that. But for me, overwhelmingly, there's
Speaker 1: gratitude that I'm I'm I'm healthy and I don't necessarily
Speaker 1: deserve to be healthy. I mean, there are people that
Speaker 1: get sick, that have done nothing to deserve that sickness.
Speaker 1: You know, there are people that, like our friend Joel Sarti,
Speaker 1: who's been on the show multiple times, who was home
Speaker 1: from you know, a serving soldier who had an accident
Speaker 1: and became a quadriplegic. He didn't deserve that, he didn't
Speaker 1: earn that. That was not you know, And so in
Speaker 1: the context of that, I'm like, hey, Craig, you have
Speaker 1: no problem, so shut the fuck up. Be grateful. But
Speaker 1: yes I can feel sad, and yes I can feel
Speaker 1: frustrated and anxious. That's not a weakness, that's not a fault.
Speaker 1: That's just you being human. Because your dad's a bit sick,
Speaker 1: and it's okay, it's okay you're sad. It's okay, you know,
Speaker 1: and it's okay to share that with people. I don't
Speaker 1: need to get on the podcast and be the perpetually happy, positive,
Speaker 1: whatever guy, because that's a fucking act. Nobody wants that guy,
Speaker 1: because that guy's not real, you know. That's that's not
Speaker 1: a real person. That's a persona trying to create some
Speaker 1: kind of impact on an audience. Well, to me, over time,
Speaker 1: that might work a little bit, but it definitely doesn't
Speaker 1: work especially not with Aussi's Ozsies are very discerning. Aussies
Speaker 1: have got a big, fucking loud bullshit filter. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like if you're a fake, they fucking know in
Speaker 1: ten seconds and they're like, yeah, fuck you, that's not real,
Speaker 1: you know. And also it's so much easier not being
Speaker 1: that because you don't have to pretend about anything. You're
Speaker 1: not trying to be what you think you should be,
Speaker 1: to present this polished fucking public image, just going look,
Speaker 1: this is our field today. I feel like shit, I
Speaker 1: know that's not very uplifting. Sorry everyone, but that's just
Speaker 1: you know, the seven day a week podcast today bit shit.
Speaker 1: So but feel free to tune now. And if you did,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't blame you, and I'll see you tomorrow. I
Speaker 1: could be a bit happier see you then. You know,
Speaker 1: I think people resonate with that.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely absolutely, because yeah, it's you know, you see
Speaker 2: through bullshit so quickly. And is that And this goes
Speaker 2: back to my other question as well, when you're trying
Speaker 2: to be the best version of yourself in those moments
Speaker 2: like is that the key for you is that it's
Speaker 2: looking at it through the lens of gratitude.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good question. So for me, it's about
Speaker 1: it's about how much I can walk my talk and
Speaker 1: live my values when the situation doesn't lend itself to that,
Speaker 1: when I'm in the middle of a shit best and
Speaker 1: people would understand me losing my shit or not being
Speaker 1: the role model that I try to be and the
Speaker 1: person that I try to be, not always successfully. But
Speaker 1: for me, it's like, at the moment, honestly, there are
Speaker 1: hard things going on, which both of you know, and
Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, this is the time or this is
Speaker 1: one of the times, Craig, like you talk about dealing
Speaker 1: with discomfort and adversity and being the calm and the chaos,
Speaker 1: and you know, I'm not putting my head in the sand.
Speaker 1: I'm not pretending things are great, and I'm being honest
Speaker 1: and I'm being practical. But I think I think adversity
Speaker 1: and tough times and pain and sadness and tragedy are
Speaker 1: weirdly opportunities for us to learn about ourselves. You know,
Speaker 1: I want to see I like seeing people under pressure
Speaker 1: because I feel like I get to see who they are.
Speaker 1: I like seeing people when things are going shit. Not
Speaker 1: that I want them to suffer. But I like seeing
Speaker 1: people and things go shit, because especially people who are
Speaker 1: you know, the the rah rah b ll you can
Speaker 1: be self help types. And no, that's maybe sounds nasty
Speaker 1: and I meant it too, but I'm just interested. I
Speaker 1: want to see what they do when things are going shit,
Speaker 1: you know. And a few times where Tips had hard
Speaker 1: things going on and she's been fine, but she's struggled
Speaker 1: a bit, as I struggle a bit, and I've gone,
Speaker 1: this is the time, dude. It's now like all the
Speaker 1: stuff we talk about. It's like and you don't have
Speaker 1: to be superman or superwoman, and you can have a
Speaker 1: bad day, of course, but you're like, okay, okay, that
Speaker 1: makes sense. It's like I need to try to manage
Speaker 1: me in the middle of all of the stuff that
Speaker 1: I can't manage. So I see it as an opportunity
Speaker 1: as well as a pain in the ass as well as,
Speaker 1: you know, just a tough reality to navigate.
Speaker 2: And do you find with that like you actually have
Speaker 2: to stop and have almost like you have a conversation
Speaker 2: with yourself as you would like said now with Tiffleer,
Speaker 2: you have to stop and go all right, this is
Speaker 2: this is the moment where everything that I have been
Speaker 2: working on, everything I have been downloading, this needs to
Speaker 2: come into effect. Now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you don't want to be a self
Speaker 1: help robot and you want to be spontaneous and authentic,
Speaker 1: but I think you can do that and be mindful
Speaker 1: and aware. Like I'll tell you something funny about you,
Speaker 1: right you, Kelly.
Speaker 2: So aside from dressing like a fifteen eurography toatis.
Speaker 1: And if that was inappropriate or hurtful, I apologize.
Speaker 2: That was great. That was great. It's when you bio.
Speaker 1: But you know, like it's no secret that you're an introvert.
Speaker 1: So you're doing this is amazing, and it's no secret
Speaker 1: that you used to be intimidated. You knew who I was,
Speaker 1: and you'd see me at the gym and you'd be
Speaker 1: like this little fucking timid little thing that would walk
Speaker 1: fifteen meters away not to talk to me. And then
Speaker 1: eventually you know, you're like you like that, you know
Speaker 1: that that horse that hasn't been broken in that kind
Speaker 1: of slowly comes over to the horse whisper and just
Speaker 1: eventually puts its head on the dude's shoulder or the
Speaker 1: dude you know, and it's like, eventually you came over
Speaker 1: and you know, metaphorically put your head on my shoulder
Speaker 1: and went, could we chat a bit? You know. And
Speaker 1: then so as you've changed towards me, and as you've
Speaker 1: gained a confidence and insight and whatever, I've changed the
Speaker 1: way that I communicate with you. And so you used
Speaker 1: to send me messages which were pretty short and pretty
Speaker 1: polite and pretty professional, I guess, and now you're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you get a sunshine, you know. I'm like, well, somebody's
Speaker 1: opened the door, somebody's overcome a you know. And it's like,
Speaker 1: so what's my point? My point is, as I see
Speaker 1: that I can be a bit cheekier or a bit
Speaker 1: less formal or a bit more you know, inappropriate in
Speaker 1: a fun way, or a bit like take the piss or,
Speaker 1: which is my default setting that I really have to
Speaker 1: manage around a lot of people, of course, then that's
Speaker 1: where I go. And but it's all based on basically
Speaker 1: your permission that you're giving me without knowing that you're
Speaker 1: giving me that permission. It's that theory of mind, it's
Speaker 1: that understanding. Okay, Kelly's intentionally or not consciously or not
Speaker 1: open these doors. So I'm just going to walk through
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, look, I did call you pet the other day,
Speaker 2: so I.
Speaker 1: Guess, yeah, that was funny. You sent me a message
Speaker 1: and you're like, hello, Pets, and I'm like, that's fucking great.
Speaker 1: I'm like, and I'm glad that you do that.
Speaker 2: You said hello, love, And how do you follow that
Speaker 2: up aside from.
Speaker 1: Hello Pitt, Hello love? Hello? I said love? Yeah, all right,
Speaker 1: we might call it a day. But it's good. You're
Speaker 1: getting good at this. You're getting good at it. It's good,
Speaker 1: good insightful questions, good topics. While we've got you, do
Speaker 1: you want to promote anything? Do you want to steer
Speaker 1: anyone towards your socials or not? Really? What do you
Speaker 1: want to do? Oh?
Speaker 2: Look, I've been really brave and I am writing almost
Speaker 2: every day now and publishing it. So it is Kelsmith
Speaker 2: dot substack dot com. And I just kind of thought,
Speaker 2: I can keep talking about wanting to write, or I
Speaker 2: can actually write, and so I'm writing.
Speaker 1: Well, can't get good at the thing you're not doing,
Speaker 1: So you're doing it.
Speaker 2: I'm doing it.
Speaker 1: Tiff. Thank you, Tiff, Thank you, Kelly. Thanks listeners,