WEBVTT - #2051 Learning vs. Memorising - Kelly Smith 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:02.760 I'll get our team. It's the project that you. It's Kelly, 0:00:02.840 --> 0:00:05.560 Kelly Smith, Tiffany and Cook. Kelly. How are you. 0:00:05.960 --> 0:00:08.319 I'm good, I'm good. Thank you. Nice to see you both. 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:12.680 Nice to be seen. What's going on over at Smith Central? 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:16.840 Smith Central? Well, look, work is ramping up. It's the 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:18.800 end of the year, so there's lots of things going 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:23.720 on there, and I've been doing homework. I've prepared for 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:26.600 today's episode, which is a bit unusual for me. I'm 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:31.120 not just relying on overthinking. I jotted a few things 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:31.320 to have. 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:36.080 Well, look at you like a bloody prep gangster, just 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:39.760 getting ready with the Imagine if you'd spent all that 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:42.040 time writing out your questions and they were no good. 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:45.920 Look, there's still that possibility. I haven't read them to 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:46.360 you yet. 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:49.560 I'm sure they're brilliant. I'm sure they're brilliant. Before we 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:51.800 jump in, how have you been watch news on Planet You? 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:54.400 I saw you the other day. You walked into the 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:57.200 cafe I was in. You look like a bloody you 0:00:57.240 --> 0:00:58.800 know what you look like, and I mean this is 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:02.880 a compliment. You look like like about a fifteen year 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:05.640 old boy who was about to go and do graffiti 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:08.960 somewhere that's kind of what you look like. I was 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:09.760 beaming for that. 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:12.560 So I'm glad I hit. I'm glad I nailed it. Absolutely. 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:16.399 I don't mean I don't mean you because obviously a woman, 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:19.119 but it just the outfit. It was like very cool. 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:22.480 I'm like, yeah, had that kind of street vibe about it. 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:23.560 So well done you. 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:27.440 Thanks. I won't tag offense now, So that's all thank you. 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:33.480 All right, Well, let's let's start. What do you got 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:36.440 for me? What have you been thinking about? What's what's 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:41.279 what's been kind of cart wheeling around that brain of yours? 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:45.360 Well, this is from a few episodes that I've been 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:47.960 listening to of yours, and I thought, how do I 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:51.960 kind of group these questions together? So there's three questions 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:55.080 all up, and I kind of thought of them as 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:58.520 being like the in between bits of a growth journey. 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:03.120 And what I've been noticing in the podcast that I 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:04.960 listened to, and I think you touched on this last 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:08.800 week when you were talking to Ian, how it's either 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:12.520 a kind of hey, welcome, you know, here's where you start, 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:16.440 Here's how you take the first step of developing, of learning, 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:19.960 of growing, or it's like Hey, here's a textbook. There's 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:24.040 no kind of in between of hey, you're progressing, this 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:26.519 is what happens at X point, this is what happens 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:31.960 after this, And so kind of lumped in with that is, well, 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:34.920 what happens when you get to a point of I'm 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:38.240 ready to release a certain part of my life. I'm 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:41.320 ready to give up something that's not aligning with me. 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:47.080 Is it normal to feel loss, sadness, potentially grief. 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:48.239 Yes? 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:51.880 And then from that point, how do you get to 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:54.120 and this comes from your episode where you were talking 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:58.480 about your shit week, how do you kind of stop? 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:01.440 I guess the wind in your sales enough to go? 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:04.360 How am I able to be the best version of 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:05.800 myself for the people around me? 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:09.320 Wow? There's a lot in that. So I'm just going 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:11.560 to tackle bits at a time. I'm sure I'll forget 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:15.520 some of it, but so bring me back. So when 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:21.760 you said learning, I'm thinking about, like I say to people, 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:25.040 what do you mean by learning? Because there's going to 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:31.800 school and memorizing stuff that you never use. Maybe that's learning, 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:35.440 but to me, it's really just memorizing shit you never use, 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:39.480 you know. So I've got to like, once I learn 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:41.840 something if I have to study something for a test, 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:48.120 I almost never need to use it again. But I 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:51.520 also never really forget it. So I can tell you, 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:54.560 like the five adductor muscles that are inside the FEMA, right, 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:58.560 which nobody accept me in Australia nose off by heart 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:01.160 and you'll never that's not true. I'm sure there are 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:03.040 a bunch of people, but not too many. Right, all 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:05.400 of these things that I learned for exams and tests 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:08.960 and stuff. Where I that you go, is that is 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:11.040 that going to help me navigate life? Or is that 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:13.280 going to help me grow a learn or evolve or adapt? 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:17.680 Is that that kind of it's really just almost downloading knowledge. 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:21.520 But for me, learning is growth. For me, learning has changed. 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:27.960 For me, learning is adapting, it's it's evolution, it's transformab 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:33.359 that's learning. That's and so I think I think that 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:39.560 probably academic learning is held into high a regard. I 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:44.479 think it's on this kind of almost this egotistical pedestal 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:47.520 of which sounds funny for bloke doing a PhD. By 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:49.880 the way, if you've done a PhD, well done. I 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:53.400 think it's a great achievement. I think getting any qualification 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:55.960 or degree or diploma is a great achievement. I'm not 0:04:56.000 --> 0:05:00.679 saying these are not good. But we all know people 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:03.480 who are fucking brilliant who finished school at year nine 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:10.640 or ten, who have incredible knowledge and wisdom and intelligence 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:16.840 and insight and understanding, who maybe couldn't even explain it 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:22.320 to you in an academics or a scientific kind of sense, 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:26.159 but they know the answers to question. They can solve 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:29.240 problems in real time. You know, they can build rapport 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:32.479 and connection and trust and respect with people despite the 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:36.720 fact that they've never studied human behavior per se. They've 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:41.120 never studied communication or metaaccuracy or metaperception like I have. 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:44.839 They but they're just fucking great at reading the room. 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:48.520 They're great at reading people. And that's partly a skill 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:51.960 and partly a gift, and partly something that they've developed 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:57.159 over time. So and what I found interesting about Ian was, 0:05:57.720 --> 0:06:00.160 and I have an interesting factoid that I can share 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:03.520 with you about him, because he was explaining to me 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:07.200 this whole kind of paradigm that he's operating within, and 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:11.200 that he's developed this model for working with primarily men 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.640 and then down the track women around mental health, and 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:17.320 everything that he said was really smart, really evolved and 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:22.760 really aware and really informed. And this doesn't matter at all. 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:27.120 But he doesn't have any in inverted commas qualifications in 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:33.040 that space, which just proves that. You know, now, that 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:35.960 doesn't prove that being qualified in that space is redundant 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:37.520 or not good. It doesn't mean that at all. It 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:41.359 just means that there are people out there who have 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:46.400 got actually great insight, knowledge and awareness who can probably 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:50.920 help people even with psychological and emotional issues, who aren't 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:56.279 in inverted commas qualified. And I just think qualifications are nice, 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:00.400 but don't think that that means that somebody that doesn't 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:06.560 have a qualification in that particular field doesn't have insight 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:10.720 or wisdom regarding that particular area of human behavior or 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:14.440 performance or whatever it is. I will tell you something 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:17.520 interesting about him, and you wouldn't pick this up by 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:22.760 listening to it. His dad when we recorded that was 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:26.560 dying and he was finishing the podcast and going to 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:30.280 the airport to get on a plane. I haven't spoken 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:33.320 to him since. I'm talking to him tomorrow the next 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:36.080 day I'm doing his show, So I don't know what 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:38.600 the outcome was because I gave him some space, But 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:43.080 like his dad was literally at death's door when we 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:47.000 were recording that, and I went, wow, this is somebody 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:51.040 walking their talk, you know. And he wasn't disconnected and 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:55.240 he wasn't pretending it wasn't happening, and it was fully aware, 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:58.800 but just and I gave I said, mate, let's not 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:01.840 do it. Let's like we'd do it another day. Like 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:06.120 it's like, well, I have this time, so let's do it, 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:09.800 you know. So yeah, I found him very impressive. Sorry, 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:12.000 I feel like I didn't answer some of your question. 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:14.360 No, And I think that's good though, because and he 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:16.600 was he was really impressive. And you know, I messaged 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:19.360 you and said, you know, even though his content was 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:21.640 more aimed at dudes, like I got so much out 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:25.200 of it. And I think that really goes to what 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:28.720 I was asking about, like the in between. So you 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:32.240 don't necessarily have to be, as you say, qualified in something, 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:36.280 but there does seem to be a gap in is 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:39.160 it content or what people are sharing in terms of 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:42.720 it feels like you either need to be at the 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:45.840 beginning or so far down towards the end of a 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:51.600 growth process that the middle part is almost overlooked. And 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:55.360 with what you just said about him, like that's absolutely 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:59.400 you know, being able to kind of stop and go, well, 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:01.800 how can I be the best version of me for 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:04.200 who needs me? Which is the other point that you 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.240 were talking about as well. So yeah, that answered it. 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:11.319 I mean, like, I never say I'm good at anything, 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:15.480 because I'm not naturally you know, everyone's heard me bang 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:17.559 on about what a shit athlete I was, and how 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:21.000 genetically gifted I wasn't, and how academically brilliant I wasn't, 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:22.920 and all of that. But the one thing that I 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:26.120 was naturally quite good at, there's only one, and that 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:29.480 was what I'm doing right now, which is communication, you know, 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:33.040 And that's a pretty good thing to be naturally gifted at. 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:37.280 But I remember doing things as a kid where I 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:39.839 had no idea of what I would like. I didn't 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:42.120 have a strategy, I didn't have any I didn't have 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:44.920 any rationale behind what I was doing. Nobody had taught 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:49.120 me or coached me. I wasn't educated in building rapport, connection, trust, 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:54.200 you know, communicating effectively, reading the room, understanding anything about 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:57.720 theory of mind, how someone else is thinking, understanding the 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:00.960 context of objective and subjective. I didn't even know what 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:04.800 those fucking terms were, but I was operating with that 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:10.880 awareness and that kind of understanding before I'd done one 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:15.120 second of research or study in the field of psychology, 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:19.880 you know. So I definitely think that we you know, 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:22.079 we all have different gifts and we all have different 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:26.280 kinds of intelligence. There are some people who go to 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:28.720 art school for ten years and their art is you know, 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:31.320 six out of ten. And then there are some people 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:34.920 like my dad, who won multiple art shows, never got 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:38.480 taught anything in his life, never had a lesson, and 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:41.760 would paint a picture of for example, tiff and it 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:46.000 would look like a fucking photograph. I'm like, how do 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:49.319 you do that? And seescapes and landscapes and animals and 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:54.760 so his stuff was very realistic, not surrealism, and not abstract. 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:58.320 But nobody ever taught him or trained him, but he 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:04.360 just had this kind of intelligence, this creative intelligence. So yeah, 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:08.560 I think both. I think acquiring knowledge and just putting 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:11.439 it in your cognitive kind of filing cabinet and then 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:15.720 not using it. I don't know, I don't really see 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:20.880 that as learning. I see that as just downloading, you know, data, 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:23.400 and I don't see the value in that. I don't 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:28.400 see the value in knowing things that you don't operationalize 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:31.840 or you don't use in some way like what's the 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:36.600 point you know? I mean, yeah, maybe maybe, but in 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:38.600 general terms, I want to learn things that are going 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:42.079 to help me do better, create better, serve people better, 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:44.040 navigate life better. You know? 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.640 Yeah? Do you? And this is the question for both 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:50.960 of you in terms of that, like do you find 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:55.160 that with what it is that you either listen to, read, 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:58.400 whatch or engage with? Like do you dip in and 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:01.560 out when it's not serving that purpose for you? Like 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:05.319 I find I can be on a streak with certain 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:09.680 podcasts or books or something and then just kind of go, oh, yeah, 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:12.319 this is it's I need. Like a few weeks ago, 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:14.439 I thought I need something I can just laugh at 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:16.440 because this is all getting a bit deep and a 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:19.679 bit too a bit too brainy. So yeah, do you 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:20.320 guys find that? 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:25.360 Yeah? I mean I've said many times I listen to Rogan, 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.200 and I've listened to Rogan since before I started a show, right, 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:30.680 So I listened to Rogan when he had very very 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:34.840 few listeners. And you know, some of his guests like 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:36.960 my fire and some don't. It's not that it's not 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:40.600 a good conversation or but it just it's not for me. 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:43.000 And I understand that people dip in and out of 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:45.120 the You project. I would too if I was a listener. 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:47.880 There are some people that listen to every episode what 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:50.199 the fuck is wrong with You? But I love you nonetheless. 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:53.360 And and then there are some that you know, depending 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:55.640 on what the topic is or who the person is. 0:12:56.880 --> 0:13:02.040 I listened to a guy the other day called Palma Lucky, 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:06.280 that's his first name, Palma Lucky l U c k 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:11.000 e Y, who created a thing called Oculus Rift, which 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:14.240 were they're kind of one of the first versions of 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:19.920 the best version of VR goggles. So he's a tech guru. 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:21.920 So by the time he was either late teens or 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:25.440 early twenties, he was a billionaire, right, And I know 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:28.200 fuck all about technology, as both of you know and 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:32.439 our listeners know. And he was in and in our 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:35.960 builds weapons for the US government. And he's still young, 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:39.680 Like he's a young dude, right, And I listened to 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:45.360 three hours and I was just fascinated with how he thinks. 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:50.360 I'm fascinated with how people think, how their brain works, 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:54.560 what excites them, how they And this dude was like 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:57.520 if you saw him down the street, and I mean 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:00.320 this with love and respect. He's not an impressed It's 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:04.079 not like, oh my god, look at that amazing human. 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:08.480 He's just a regular dude doing crazy shit, who's curious 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:12.000 and obviously pretty brilliant and all of that. But yeah, 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:17.800 some of the things that I listened to, like the content, 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:20.960 what they were talking about, how he develops and designs 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:24.800 and builds technology and the roles that that technology can 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:27.520 serve for the general public and the military and all. 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:31.920 That's fascinating. But just listening to him, how he you know, 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:35.280 how he started a company when he was thirteen and fourteen, 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:39.320 and how he just I love that stuff. I love stories, 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:44.480 stories that I can learn about the person, you know, 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:47.880 through the story, and also just listening to how people 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:51.160 think and how they function and how they navigate life. 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.760 Because I found him fascinating and he's nothing like me, 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:58.360 so not like so much more interesting than me. But yeah, 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:02.680 but I jump in and out of certain shows. I 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:05.400 don't listen often to what people think they think I 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:11.520 might be all like rah rah, inspiration, motivation, psychology. I don't. 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:14.120 I really don't listen to very much of that at all. 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:19.920 I love I love stories. I love I love humor. 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:22.720 I love. I love listening to stuff that I do 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:28.240 not understand or know about. Sometimes it depends. Yeah, I 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:32.520 just listened to a whole series of books, The Terminal List, 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:35.440 and before that, the whole series of The Gray Man, 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:40.920 just about Tier one operators, and especially The Terminal List 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:43.280 that's written by a guy called Jack Carr who was 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:47.040 a Navy seal. So all of the all of the language, 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:49.240 and all of the technical kind of stuff and all 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:53.400 the warfare stuff and the tactical stuff is very, very 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:57.680 realistic and insightful. And it was like just getting a, 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:01.240 you know, an undergrad degree in how the military works, 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:03.120 because I listened to I don't know what it is, 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:07.840 twelve books and they're all like, you know, fifteen hours 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:10.000 twelve times fifteen is one hundred and eighty that's one 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:14.160 hundred and eighty hours of education, you know. I'm like, yeah, 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:18.280 and it fucking fascinated me. And I just think, firstly, 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:22.120 and it's ironic because I hate war. War was fucked. 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:26.160 I hate it that humans kill humans. I hate it 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:29.040 that we haven't sorted that out yet. But at the 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:32.840 same time, it's the way that it works and the 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:37.080 way that you know, like like it or not, Australia 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:38.840 has to have an army and a navy and a 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:42.360 defense force because if we don't, we get attacked, we're fucked. 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:46.440 So that's the way the world works. So you can't go, oh, 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:50.840 we're not doing defense because we're good. Luck with that. Well, 0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:54.760 pretty soon you're going to be overrun. But nonetheless, I'm sorry, 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:56.960 I digress, but I loved it. It's interesting. 0:16:57.600 --> 0:16:59.640 So just on a tangent of that, then, like, how 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:02.640 did how did you then, like compare that to listening 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:05.200 to the dude who created the oculus and is now 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:10.000 designing weapons like that would have been quite an interesting contrast. 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:13.600 Yeah. Yeah, So, I mean, these are just things that 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:16.960 I don't really know a lot about and I'm fascinated with. 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:22.160 I was going to say smart people, but I don't 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:28.120 necessarily mean IQ smart. I just mean creative people, clever people. Yeah, 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:32.480 and so it's that, you know, there's no sometimes there's 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:35.520 no rhyme or reason with what I find interesting, and 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:39.400 people would be maybe surprised by the stuff that will 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:44.600 keep me engrossed for hours at a time. But yeah, 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:46.800 and then I'll you know, like I listened the other 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:52.720 day to Aubrey Marcus talked to a guy who used 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:56.080 to be a Christian. Right, this is how different is this? 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:56.400 Right? 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:59.880 So he was a Christian and now he's a follow 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:03.120 of Jesus, Right, And you go, well, what's the difference, 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:06.560 And he's like, well, he's actually quite anti Christian now, 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:12.200 in the sense that this dude feels like a lot 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:16.080 of Christians worship the Bible more than God. And then 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:19.040 I'm like, oh, this is an interesting conversation. I don't 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:22.119 know if I agree or disagree, but I'm interested. So 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:26.119 then I listened to two hours of him explaining the 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:29.640 difference between his kind of theology or philosophy and how 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:32.760 it came to be. His dad was a pastor. I 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:35.680 think he was a pastor in a church himself or 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:38.440 a youth pastor. He grew up in a very Christian, 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:46.200 very theologically like profound family and environment, and he kind 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:48.280 of did a left turn. And he's still all about 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:53.439 God and love and compassion, but he walked practically and 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:58.480 strategically through the bits of the Bible that don't really 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:01.280 make sense. And the problem is that when you are 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:06.040 completely intertwined with an idea or a theology or a 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:09.840 philosophy or a dogma or a practice or a way 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:13.440 of eating or a way of living or whatever. When 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:18.080 that becomes your identity, then it's almost impossible for you 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:23.439 to learn new things regarding that area of whatever unless 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:27.040 people are endorsing your current thoughts or your current beliefs, 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:31.160 because when they attack or question or even are unsure 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:34.199 about you know that thing, well, then you feel like 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:38.480 they're attacking you because they're questioning your identity. And so 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:43.400 for me, I try really hard to listen to things 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:46.919 that I don't agree with or I once didn't agree with, 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:52.200 or might challenge my thinking. So, you know, for example, 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:55.040 Matthew Mark Luke, John the first four books of the Bible, 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:58.520 or all Gospels. Then after Max there's a book of 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:03.040 called Acts, and then there's a book Romans, so Romans, Corinthians, Galations, Ephesians, 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:07.000 Ephesians one and two, Philippians, Thessalonians. All of these books 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:09.920 that followed the Gospels were written by a guy called 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:14.000 Saint Paul. Right, he probably heard that he's written these 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:17.720 written by St. Paul's Letter to the Romans, Saint Paul's 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:21.280 Letter to the Corinthians. And it didn't really I never 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:25.200 really thought deeply about the fact that when Jesus died, 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:31.320 Paul had never even met him. So this dude that 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:36.600 didn't meet Jesus was writing all about Jesus years after 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:39.120 Jesus died. And I'm like, yeah, that's actually a good 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:43.160 point that this dude's making. Now, I'm not saying that 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:45.679 so it's all bullshit. I'm not saying that at all. 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:50.480 I'm just saying, Oh, so, Saint Paul apparently met Jesus 0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:55.359 on the road to Damascus, which is obviously a place 0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:57.760 back in the day, and he had a vision, he 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:03.080 had an encounter via a vision of Jesus and anyway, 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:05.200 this whole thing, right, and so he had a vision, 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:08.520 then he had this personal experience blah blah, blah blah, 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:12.719 and all of these subsequent books came out of this. Right. Anyway, 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:15.840 I know, I'm fucking banging on and everybody's probably falling asleep. 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:20.320 But this was quite confronting to me because it really 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:24.800 challenged my thinking and ideology and theology. And it's in 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:29.000 those moments where people go, actually, Craig, what you thought 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:32.520 could be wrong, your beliefs about this could be wrong, 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:35.840 and because like what this and it's not like, oh 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:38.160 so I'm jumping ships. Now, I'm just like, oh, I'm 0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:43.439 listening and I'm considering. So, you know, the challenge of 0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:50.560 being truly open minded and truly teachable and truly objective, 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:56.239 it's pretty impossible, right because the Craig experience is a 0:21:56.280 --> 0:22:01.160 subjective one. But at least having an awareness of your bias, 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:05.200 having an awareness of your echo chamber. For me, that's 0:22:05.240 --> 0:22:08.800 the start of being more aware and more objective and 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:12.360 more open. Steps down off soapbox. 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:16.680 That's interesting. So a friend of mine a while ago, 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:21.160 when there was a big election happening, I was very 0:22:21.600 --> 0:22:24.680 set on I'm voting for this party because that one 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:26.760 over there I do not agree with, I will never 0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:30.120 agree with, can't stand them, won't even look at them. 0:22:30.200 --> 0:22:32.520 And he said to me, well, how do you know 0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:36.439 if you're not actually immersing yourself in what it is 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:38.960 they stand for or what it is they're saying. And 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:41.040 so just do me a favor and maybe follow a 0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:43.600 couple of their accounts online and see what it is 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:46.680 like the followers of that side of the political spectrum 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:49.600 of saying. And so I did, and it was a 0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:54.720 really good point because I had been incredibly closed off. Thankfully, 0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:58.560 it just confirmed that I didn't want to be leading 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:02.639 into that, and that was good. But I also do 0:23:02.720 --> 0:23:05.440 wonder like if this is part of the same process of, 0:23:05.880 --> 0:23:10.240 you know, if you're open enough to take not taking 0:23:10.280 --> 0:23:13.320 on other opinions, but at least hearing them. Is this 0:23:13.440 --> 0:23:17.359 also kind of the same process of saying, that's not 0:23:17.440 --> 0:23:20.600 aligning with me anymore and I need to either stop 0:23:20.960 --> 0:23:26.400 or remove or limit. And I heard the other day 0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:28.879 it was one of the chicks from Master Chef and 0:23:28.920 --> 0:23:31.480 she's had this huge kind of body transformation and people 0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:34.920 were asking her about it, and she was very much 0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:37.480 against talking about it, and then finally sat down and 0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:39.879 she's done this interview and she said, well, you know, 0:23:39.920 --> 0:23:42.240 I've given up you know, a number of things in 0:23:42.280 --> 0:23:45.080 my life, and one of them is alcohol. And she said, 0:23:45.119 --> 0:23:47.080 you know, I made the first time I kind of 0:23:47.160 --> 0:23:49.240 was aware of how I felt about it was I 0:23:49.280 --> 0:23:53.320 made this big platter of cheese and I poured myself 0:23:53.359 --> 0:23:58.399 a drink that wasn't booze, and I cried because I 0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:03.080 felt like I was grieving former version of me. And 0:24:03.119 --> 0:24:05.640 she's a fair way down the track now where she's 0:24:05.640 --> 0:24:07.520 like it doesn't bother her. But I just thought Wow, 0:24:07.600 --> 0:24:13.000 that's it must be a pretty confronting moment to be 0:24:13.080 --> 0:24:17.440 able to say that's not serving me and I need 0:24:17.480 --> 0:24:18.920