Speaker 1: Should you just tell me where we go?
Speaker 2: We're heading into the township I suppose you call it
Speaker 2: the Kendall where William Tyrell disappeared.
Speaker 3: From this time, driving back to Kendall, I'm traveling with
Speaker 3: Gary Jubilin, the detective who led the investigation.
Speaker 1: How long has it been since you were here?
Speaker 2: Oh, there would be a matter of three years, four years,
Speaker 2: I'd say that since I've been up here.
Speaker 3: Like I've said before, Gary and I go back a
Speaker 3: long way, and my first impression of him was he's interesting.
Speaker 2: That hasn't changed the lawn, and that brings back every
Speaker 2: memory in the book.
Speaker 1: What memories are.
Speaker 2: I think an overriding one of sadness of what's happened
Speaker 2: in this town and what's happened to William.
Speaker 3: Gary doesn't hide his feelings. He's capable of great compassion,
Speaker 3: but also anger.
Speaker 2: With that sadness that there's a frustration. It probably a
Speaker 2: better term his anger, but I'll try to be nice
Speaker 2: and say frustration in the way that the matter's been handled.
Speaker 1: He's driven.
Speaker 2: It was a tough investigation, but it was an investigation that, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I was up for the challenge. I've been investigating homicide
Speaker 2: for a long time, and I was confident that, yeah,
Speaker 2: I would get a result on it.
Speaker 3: There are other words people used to describe him, because
Speaker 3: Gary has made enemies, partly because he had a way
Speaker 3: of getting in the newspapers and on television.
Speaker 4: You see this, Yeah, well he was kidnapped this member
Speaker 4: and then done putting a strike force on it.
Speaker 1: I'm going to put my hand up.
Speaker 2: You go for God, Gary.
Speaker 3: If all he and I met, Gary had been the
Speaker 3: subject of a primetime TV drama about his life and
Speaker 3: another of his investigations. That show was called Underbelly, and
Speaker 3: this is how they described him.
Speaker 5: Gary Kevin Jubilan was an aries, a practicing Buddhist and
Speaker 5: drank green tea instead of coffee.
Speaker 2: His workmates called him crazy fuck.
Speaker 3: The green tea and the nickname. That's all true. I'd
Speaker 3: add the shaved head, the nose he's broken three times
Speaker 3: boxing the facts. Gary meditates to find some inner balance
Speaker 3: and can also be so demanding.
Speaker 1: He's told more than one.
Speaker 3: Of his bosses to fuck off if they can't get
Speaker 3: him more time, resources, or staff for his investigations.
Speaker 6: I heard you request that, as Elizabe.
Speaker 1: I know this.
Speaker 6: Every time you put your hit up I'm going to
Speaker 6: kick it.
Speaker 3: But the thing that really stands out to me about
Speaker 3: Gary is the way he pursued his cases.
Speaker 6: It's taken us years and now I've gone you.
Speaker 1: To destruction.
Speaker 6: So if you really want to help yourself, then you
Speaker 6: make a.
Speaker 3: Statement putting pressure on a suspect.
Speaker 6: Tell me what.
Speaker 3: Happened, doing everything he could think.
Speaker 1: Of to crack them.
Speaker 3: Why he did it at the risk even of ruining
Speaker 3: their life or his own.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're heading down towards where William, who was the
Speaker 2: last saying alive in being around drive and that's something
Speaker 2: that has played very heavily in my life, this particular road.
Speaker 2: And yeah, we'll stop and look at the house. How
Speaker 2: does a child disappear from there? And we haven't got
Speaker 2: the answers and yo, as the New South Wales place,
Speaker 2: we should be judged by it. These are the type
Speaker 2: of cases that you need to solve.
Speaker 3: I'm Dan box and from News dot com dot Au.
Speaker 3: This is Witness William Tyrell Episode eight.
Speaker 1: Pressure.
Speaker 5: You know, you could feel the tension, You could feel
Speaker 5: that the bosses were doing things that they were all
Speaker 5: by the book. This might sound a strange thing to say,
Speaker 5: but you could just see there was at tension to detail.
Speaker 3: This is another of the cops who worked on the
Speaker 3: investigation into William's disappearance in September twenty fourteen.
Speaker 5: Normally, you know, cops, we trivialize things because it's like, oh,
Speaker 5: we've been to a million missing kids and we found them.
Speaker 3: But for this to happen, they don't want to be identified.
Speaker 3: So Nina, the producer on this podcast, is reading their words.
Speaker 5: You've got the sense of like, oh, everyone's definitely taking
Speaker 5: it on as a serious detective investigation.
Speaker 3: But that doesn't mean everything was working smoothly.
Speaker 5: As soon as we got there, we had tasks, so
Speaker 5: they're just kind of giving us stuff to do. But
Speaker 5: you know, they weren't telling us much. I didn't really
Speaker 5: get a sense of or any briefing of how they
Speaker 5: were attacking it.
Speaker 3: This was before Gary Jubilin was put in charge, when
Speaker 3: the strike force was being led by a detective called
Speaker 3: hands Up.
Speaker 5: Hands Up was pretty old school. I never never had
Speaker 5: a conversation with him. Gary was the first person that
Speaker 5: when he came aboard, he wanted everyone to tell him
Speaker 5: what they thought. He didn't care whether I was a
Speaker 5: constable or I was a detective or if I was
Speaker 5: the boss. He wanted to know. He wanted to get
Speaker 5: everyone's ideas.
Speaker 3: This was around the start of twenty fifteen when Hans
Speaker 3: retired and Gary Jubilin took over the investigation.
Speaker 5: When he came in and I met him and we
Speaker 5: chatted that first day, I saw him as a real
Speaker 5: fucking detective. He was the real deal. Like I knew
Speaker 5: about the underbelly and all that bullshit. But you know,
Speaker 5: it wasn't until he came on board that I really
Speaker 5: actually understood, Oh, this is what we've got to do.
Speaker 5: We've got to put this timeline together.
Speaker 7: We've got to do this.
Speaker 5: We've got to do that. He wants everyone's import he
Speaker 5: wants everyone to talk. He wants you to go and
Speaker 5: have a beer after work and discuss things and argue
Speaker 5: over ideas and theories, because that's how shit happens. I
Speaker 5: really enjoyed working under Gary's direction because he sort of
Speaker 5: thinks like a business person, where it's like time, we've
Speaker 5: got to get this shit done. We've got a deadline.
Speaker 5: We've got to figure this out.
Speaker 3: You know, Gary didn't want things to get slowed down
Speaker 3: by the petty bureaucracies you often run up against in
Speaker 3: the police force, like not wanting to pay overtime, or
Speaker 3: which police commander would let others use which resources, even
Speaker 3: if that meant Gary falling out with other bosses.
Speaker 5: People ask me about it, and what I say is
Speaker 5: he's tenacious and he'll do things that you would expect
Speaker 5: cops in movies to do, but that's not reality, and
Speaker 5: he's the guy that would do that. So if one
Speaker 5: of my family members was murdered, I want Gary to investigate.
Speaker 5: That's how I explain it.
Speaker 3: Gary also found supporters in William Tyrell's foster parents, who
Speaker 3: were now approaching the anniversary of his disappearance.
Speaker 8: The anniversary brings a huge amount of mixed emotions. Again,
Speaker 8: we don't have an outcome. We don't know whether he's
Speaker 8: whereabouts or anything.
Speaker 3: This is William's foster father speaking at the time to
Speaker 3: the journalist Leah Harris.
Speaker 8: It's quite scary to think that we don't have you
Speaker 8: know anything. One you're on. I crossed my fingers, I
Speaker 8: look into I look into can you mother, and just
Speaker 8: proposed for his return.
Speaker 3: The first time Gary met the foster parents, he looked
Speaker 3: at them as potential suspects.
Speaker 9: When we were meeting. I could feel that he was
Speaker 9: just sizing me up, and you know, you could feel
Speaker 9: the suspicion coming all over again.
Speaker 3: This is William's foster mother. In another interview with Leah Harris.
Speaker 9: At that point, I'd never heard of Gary jubut I know,
Speaker 9: connection or reference to the name whatsoever. I googled him
Speaker 9: and I thought, wow, this is good, this is really good.
Speaker 9: He'd been on a number of he'd been on a
Speaker 9: number of high profile yeah. But I remember somebody telling
Speaker 9: me that he was the character on an underbelt and
Speaker 9: I'm thinking, oh my god and thinking wow, okay. But
Speaker 9: what it gave us, I think, was this sense of
Speaker 9: We've got the right guy.
Speaker 3: Eventually, Gary discounted the foster parents as likely suspects, just
Speaker 3: like hands Rup had done before him. And William's foster parents.
Speaker 3: They grew close to Gary.
Speaker 9: We had the then Ministry of Police telling us that
Speaker 9: he was new South Wales Police top cop. We had
Speaker 9: people within the police force telling us we don't have
Speaker 9: anybody better. We trusted, we trusted police, We trusted him.
Speaker 3: Between them, Gary Jubilin and William's foster parents turbo charged
Speaker 3: the investigation into the three year old's disappearance. Instead of
Speaker 3: just being a police matter, it became a massive publicity campaign.
Speaker 3: The Where's William campaign launched in twenty fifteen. That August,
Speaker 3: there was this public performance of bring Him Home from
Speaker 3: the musical lem Asarabler.
Speaker 4: They are focus today at and supporting other Where's William campaign.
Speaker 3: Local politicians spoke up.
Speaker 9: I can only imagine as a father and is apparent
Speaker 9: the grief and the anxiety that the family is going through.
Speaker 1: There were TV news reports.
Speaker 9: Let's continue to work together to bring William home.
Speaker 3: There were billboards, thousands of leaflets were distributed.
Speaker 2: Where's William wig the search for Little William Tyrell on
Speaker 2: wearing the badge that they've released. They're putting out flyers,
Speaker 2: They're asking for everyone to get involved, get on board.
Speaker 3: William's foster parents were driving this behind the scenes, although
Speaker 3: the state government barred them from speaking publicly because William
Speaker 3: was a child in care.
Speaker 2: William is a little boy who needs to be home.
Speaker 3: With his family, so instead they provided a written statement.
Speaker 10: Please please, whoever you are, if you know something about
Speaker 10: William's disappearance, please help police find our little boy.
Speaker 3: Tens of thousands of people took part in Walk for
Speaker 3: William events right across Australia.
Speaker 2: They're looking at what is called a Walk for William now.
Speaker 11: These will be held across New South Wales as well
Speaker 11: as in Queensland.
Speaker 3: Other walks took place in New York, Canada, New Zealand,
Speaker 3: Japan and Ireland.
Speaker 11: We are expecting up to a thousand people to pack
Speaker 11: into the Kendall Showgrounds.
Speaker 3: The Kendall Showgrounds had been the focus of the search
Speaker 3: effort after William first went missing.
Speaker 2: The grand of applause to for Gary and his team.
Speaker 2: It's obviously at distressing time for them, and I'd been
Speaker 2: doing a fantastic job.
Speaker 3: Everybody involved in the search was invited to say thank you.
Speaker 3: There were flags and cake and a big book for
Speaker 3: people to sign, and Gary spoke, we don't.
Speaker 2: Have any self doubt in regards to this investigation. We're
Speaker 2: going out of hammer and tongs and doing everything that
Speaker 2: we can do.
Speaker 3: And if you signed the book there was a chance
Speaker 3: to win a prepaid visa card. But really it was
Speaker 3: part of a covert operation because Gary wanted to identify
Speaker 3: the people who turned up in case the person responsible
Speaker 3: for William's disappearance was somewhere among the.
Speaker 12: Crowd and we had one hundred and twelve taxi backs
Speaker 12: between Sydney and Brisbane. We had one thousand bumper stickers
Speaker 12: all around the area. We had one hundred thousand coasters
Speaker 12: go out around the mid North Coast and around Sydney
Speaker 12: in key areas.
Speaker 4: With the whole purpose behind that is that people have
Speaker 4: a few drinks and if they know something, they might
Speaker 4: say something.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 13: So everything that we did was strategic.
Speaker 3: Claire and Alice Collins are a mother and daughter team
Speaker 3: who run a small pr company.
Speaker 12: There are so many cases of missing children over the
Speaker 12: years that have just disappeared into people's memory. They don't
Speaker 12: know about those children because there was no campaign. Everyone
Speaker 12: knows about William. I'm not saying that's because of us,
Speaker 12: but the campaign I think pushed his face and his
Speaker 12: message into nearly every single home across Australia.
Speaker 3: Working for free alongside the police and foster parents, they
Speaker 3: organized the Where's William campaign, eventually taking it to the
Speaker 3: State Parliament. Thank you the Premier, Administer of Justice and Police,
Speaker 3: the Honorable Troy Rats and those in law enforcement, campaigners
Speaker 3: and politicians.
Speaker 1: Wept openly and it.
Speaker 13: Starts with William.
Speaker 10: It starts with we're going to bring him home.
Speaker 3: In its first year, the Where's William Campaign helped generate
Speaker 3: thousands of newspaper, magazine and TV news reports. It held
Speaker 3: over two hundred community events, encouraged almost three thousand new
Speaker 3: reports of information to crime stoppers and almost two hundred
Speaker 3: direct to the police. It was a huge effort and
Speaker 3: it didn't stop. There was an events in the Federal Parliament.
Speaker 9: This has to resonate with every person in this nation
Speaker 9: because Australia can never become that country that just turns
Speaker 9: the other cheek on this.
Speaker 3: And the second anniversary of William's disappearance was marked by
Speaker 3: the New South Wales Police Commissioner announcing the state's first
Speaker 3: million dollar reward for information.
Speaker 2: That's one million reasons why somebody that knows what's happened
Speaker 2: should come forward and talk to us and do it soon.
Speaker 3: That reward was something else garage the campaigners and William's
Speaker 3: foster parents fought for. Gary got up in front of
Speaker 3: the TV cameras up stuff that we are announcing a
Speaker 3: second strike force made up of detectives from across New
Speaker 3: South Wales to help work through the long list of
Speaker 3: people whose names had come up in the investigation. The
Speaker 3: state Premier Mike Baird spoke about his sense of grief
Speaker 3: over William's disappearance.
Speaker 11: It's an incredibly difficult thing to watch as appearent every
Speaker 11: appearing across the nation sits and is absolutely in the
Speaker 11: sense of deep grief with that family.
Speaker 3: And privately, Mike Baird would go up to Gary and
Speaker 3: tell him whatever you need in this investigation, You've got it.
Speaker 11: I want to pay tribute to Gary and his team.
Speaker 11: We have the best police I think in the world.
Speaker 3: All of which is hugely impressive. But another year passed
Speaker 3: without any answers, and listening to William's foster parents, it
Speaker 3: sounds like things felt very different for them. By the
Speaker 3: second anniversary.
Speaker 9: We created our Where's William campaign to keep William alive
Speaker 9: in the public's conscious. You can't forget about this boy.
Speaker 9: You cannot forget about William. He's three years old and
Speaker 9: I don't think the public can say that it's okay
Speaker 9: that this crime is not solved, because it's not okay,
Speaker 9: and we need to hold police to account and we
Speaker 9: need to push it and it needs to be solved.
Speaker 3: Holding police to account is different to the simple trust
Speaker 3: they described once feeling in the police force, and.
Speaker 9: I think part of what's helped us is we've had
Speaker 9: Gary who has kept it going.
Speaker 2: I saw it as a sort of pinnacle of my career.
Speaker 2: You go through stages in your career where you're learning
Speaker 2: your trade as a homicide detective, then you're feeling a
Speaker 2: little bit comfortable you're up to leading an investigation, and
Speaker 2: then you get to the point where I was in
Speaker 2: my career as one of the most experienced homicide detectives
Speaker 2: in the state, if not the country, and to lead
Speaker 2: an investigation like this, I felt comfortable doing it. I
Speaker 2: felt that I had the skills, I felt they had
Speaker 2: the energy, I felt they had the experience, and so
Speaker 2: I wasn't overawed by leading the William terial investigation.
Speaker 3: When Gary talks about leading, he means leading the two
Speaker 3: strike forces now working on it, as well as his
Speaker 3: team in the homicide squad, who all worked on William's disappearance,
Speaker 3: but none of them were working only on this job.
Speaker 3: They all had other cases. In the course of half
Speaker 3: a day that I spent with Gary and Kendall around
Speaker 3: this time talking about William's disappearance, he took a dozen
Speaker 3: phone calls about other murders. He was leading right across
Speaker 3: New South Wales.
Speaker 2: Like you're working around the clock, weekends leave. I didn't
Speaker 2: know whether I was working or not. I was working
Speaker 2: twenty four to seven. But making those sacrifices it was
Speaker 2: worth it because you knew you were doing it for
Speaker 2: the right reason and to help the families find justice.
Speaker 3: You talk about making sacrifices, were you also prepared to
Speaker 3: make enemies to do that job.
Speaker 2: I don't seek to make enemies, but if someone is
Speaker 2: in the way of doing a homicide investigation efficiently and effectively,
Speaker 2: they put barriers in place.
Speaker 3: And you're talking about other cops now I'm.
Speaker 2: Talking about the cops. I talk about lazy cops, whether
Speaker 2: they're junior to me or my colleagues, or the ones
Speaker 2: that I particularly didn't like. With a senior police that
Speaker 2: put their career ahead of what we're meant to be
Speaker 2: doing as homicide detectives, I think anyone that's a committed
Speaker 2: police officer would be changed. That changes your view on life.
Speaker 2: You know that you've got an awesome responsibility, a heavy
Speaker 2: responsibility that weighs on you, that you've got to do
Speaker 2: the right thing. So that's what drove me without doubt.
Speaker 2: But sometimes you've just got to stand up for what's right.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's not easy. No one likes confrontation. I don't
Speaker 2: like confrontation. I'm good at it if it gets the confrontation,
Speaker 2: but I don't like it.
Speaker 3: He once told me that when you're working a homicide investigation,
Speaker 3: you'll go in like a bondozer and people will get hurt. Yep,
Speaker 3: what does you mean by that?
Speaker 2: The very nature of homicide investigation. If people think you
Speaker 2: can tip, you te around the homicide investigation. Living in
Speaker 2: La La Laine, homicide investigation is about finding out what's happened.
Speaker 2: I'm not talking about breaking rules here or going too far.
Speaker 2: I'm talking about you've got to go after a person.
Speaker 2: You've got to hunt that person, find that person, and
Speaker 2: gather the evidence.
Speaker 3: Gary's drive and determination was matched by some of those
Speaker 3: who worked on the strike force into William's disappearance. His
Speaker 3: officer in charge, Craig Lambert, was a former kickboxing champion.
Speaker 3: The two men would actually spa together in a car
Speaker 3: park outside the police station. Another detective, Louise Curry, was
Speaker 3: a former Olympic athlete. In twenty sixteen, a few months
Speaker 3: short of the third anniversary of William's disappearance. Louise challenged Gary,
Speaker 3: saying she didn't believe there was enough information to exclude
Speaker 3: William's foster parents as suspects. She wanted to pull them
Speaker 3: back in for interview. Gary agreed, and he sprung it
Speaker 3: on the couple without warning, pretending to invite them to
Speaker 3: a normal meeting, then taking them off separately under escort
Speaker 3: to windowless interview rooms where Louise had planned the questions.
Speaker 3: Transcripts of these recorded interviews show both detectives asked William's
Speaker 3: foster parents about things that would turn up years later
Speaker 3: in the theory now being pursued by the new South
Speaker 3: Wales Police Force, or in leaks from the police to
Speaker 3: the media, like how William wasn't wearing shoes at the
Speaker 3: time of the last known photo of him, and the
Speaker 3: timing of exactly when William's foster mother says she spoke
Speaker 3: to a neighbor outside. At one point, Gary asks William's
Speaker 3: foster father whether the three year old might have hurt
Speaker 3: himself accidentally and his foster mum covered it up. Never likely,
Speaker 3: William's foster father replies, would have been a driveway tragedy
Speaker 3: where William was hit and killed accidentally by one of
Speaker 3: their cars. No, could William's foster grandmother have done something
Speaker 3: terrible by accident and his foster mum cover it up.
Speaker 3: William's foster father says these police theories are completely laughable.
Speaker 3: The detectives also challenge William's foster mother about how she
Speaker 3: deleted a text from her husband saying he was on
Speaker 3: his way back to the house. Gary Jubilin puts it
Speaker 3: to her that William might have fallen from the balcony
Speaker 3: or a tree and she panicked and covered it up.
Speaker 3: She denies this. You understand why the accusing finger gets
Speaker 3: pointed back this way, Gary asks her, because invariably it's
Speaker 3: the people that had care or custody of the child.
Speaker 3: William's foster mother says no, She repeats it, no, no, never.
Speaker 3: Gary Jubilin doesn't ask her about the drive, though, where
Speaker 3: William's foster mother says she got into her mum's car
Speaker 3: and went down the road towards the crossroads. William's foster
Speaker 3: mother starts to bring this up, but Gary asks her
Speaker 3: about something else, and they never come back to it.
Speaker 3: After William's foster parents were interrogated. They go home, not
Speaker 3: knowing the police have fitted their car with a listening device.
Speaker 3: The couple say nothing either in the car or in
Speaker 3: their interviews with the detectives, for the Strike Force to
Speaker 3: decide that yes, they should be suspects. Instead, asked in
Speaker 3: her interview what she thinks happened to William, his foster
Speaker 3: mother talks about the two cars. She says she remembers
Speaker 3: seeing parked on the road that morning. I also wonder
Speaker 3: about Paul, she says. I'm thinking if those two cars
Speaker 3: are there, they're visiting him. I just find Paul really odd.
Speaker 6: Pod here.
Speaker 2: This is electronically recorded the interview between Detective Chief Inspector
Speaker 2: Jubilin and mister Paul Savage at Port la Quarry Police Station.
Speaker 3: Paul Savage lives opposite the house where William was last seen,
Speaker 3: and you can't miss Paul pretty much. Every time I've
Speaker 3: been on Benirun Drive, he comes out to say hello
Speaker 3: or see what's going on.
Speaker 2: The Time is twelve forty two pm on Wednesday, the
Speaker 2: sixth nighth of August two thousand and seven.
Speaker 1: Eight.
Speaker 3: Paul was seventy when William went missing, but still fit.
Speaker 3: He walked in the bush every morning. In person, he's
Speaker 3: earnest and awkward, but there's something raw about him, as
Speaker 3: if he's always on the edge of a big emotion.
Speaker 2: Assisting with this interview today is Detective Sergeant Laura Bluecroft.
Speaker 3: Paul had seen William before he was reported missing at
Speaker 3: a party on Benirun Drive months earlier.
Speaker 2: For the record, Sergeant Beekroff, would you please state your
Speaker 2: name and full rank Detective Sergeant or A.
Speaker 6: Beekroff.
Speaker 3: After again ruling out William's foster parents, Laura Beecroft was
Speaker 3: the detective who initially took the lead in investigating Paul.
Speaker 2: Mister Savage. I'm going to ask you some questions about
Speaker 2: the disappearance of three year old missing boy William Tyrell.
Speaker 2: Do you understand that if.
Speaker 3: Paul agreed to do this interview voluntarily and he didn't
Speaker 3: have a lawyer present.
Speaker 2: My questions and any answers you give will be recorded
Speaker 2: on this machine. Do you understand that.
Speaker 3: Yes, and his account of what happened that morning is complicated.
Speaker 2: Do you understand that you're free to ly of the
Speaker 2: police station today at any time you wish yeth.
Speaker 3: The last known photo of William is taken at nine
Speaker 3: p thirty seven in the morning of the twelfth of
Speaker 3: September twenty fourteen. At nine point thirty nine, a phone
Speaker 3: call is made from Paul's house opposite to Casino Hospital
Speaker 3: where his brother was being treated.
Speaker 2: Was he getting near the hospital or something? What was
Speaker 2: and so you were going to facilitate him?
Speaker 13: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Getting him out?
Speaker 13: Yeah.
Speaker 3: That call lasts eight or nine minutes. Afterwards, Paul goes
Speaker 3: outside and can hear children playing over the road.
Speaker 2: William's playing up there. You can hear him.
Speaker 4: I heard kids playing. I didn't say it was him.
Speaker 4: I said I heard kids playing.
Speaker 2: Squeally take it from the only kids playing in the street.
Speaker 3: About twenty minutes later, so around ten past ten, some
Speaker 3: other neighbors hear the sound of a car on gravel.
Speaker 3: There's gravel at the top of Benerom Drive between Paul's
Speaker 3: house and the house where William is reported missing. Shortly after,
Speaker 3: Paul's wife, Heather, leaves home.
Speaker 2: See a time at ten thirty eight, ten thirty eight. Okay,
Speaker 2: I'll let him.
Speaker 13: Know what the time was because she would be like
Speaker 13: for binger.
Speaker 3: Ten thirty eight. Paul's specific about this time.
Speaker 13: He repeats it hither hadn't lived or ten thirty.
Speaker 3: Eight, and says the same in different interviews, but CCTV
Speaker 3: shows Heather must have left earlier about ten thirty. At
Speaker 3: ten forty one, there's a phone call from Paul's house
Speaker 3: to a medical center in Port Macquarie, and around that time,
Speaker 3: a neighbor also knocks on Paul's door.
Speaker 13: She said, have you heard um? They? Do you know
Speaker 13: the little boydy on the ride go on missing?
Speaker 3: Paul says, he walks over to the house where William
Speaker 3: was last seen.
Speaker 13: Oh, I come straightly out and walked down and see
Speaker 13: if I can help.
Speaker 3: He speaks to William's foster grandmother.
Speaker 13: She said he was there. He applied, and.
Speaker 3: Also speaks to the neighbors Peter and Cherill. Only Peter
Speaker 3: and Cherrell will later say that they didn't see Paul
Speaker 3: Savage that morning.
Speaker 2: And then you walked up into the bush.
Speaker 4: That's right, okay, I said, Well, I'll go up there
Speaker 4: in the bush in case.
Speaker 13: It went up that way.
Speaker 3: Paul says. Everyone else was looking for William down Benurrun Drive,
Speaker 3: so he turned up the road alone where a dirt
Speaker 3: trail leads into the forest.
Speaker 2: Now, describe what you did in the bush. You indicated
Speaker 2: that's the rough area that you'll walked at as okay,
Speaker 2: in the general area that area that you walked that's right, okay.
Speaker 2: And you also indicated that you got a little bit lost,
Speaker 2: which I did. Where did you get lost?
Speaker 13: Just walking down here?
Speaker 4: I couldn't remember where we begyard was, So I've come
Speaker 4: down here and that's why I've come around.
Speaker 1: It, okay?
Speaker 2: And what did you do after you've so, you've taken it.
Speaker 2: You're trying to help. You're telling me you're trying to
Speaker 2: help and look for this child. Yeah, and you've gone
Speaker 2: off in the bush and I think you've described as
Speaker 2: for thirty minutes or so. Yes, I can remember you've
Speaker 2: walked up around the bush for thirty minutes.
Speaker 13: Yeah.
Speaker 3: After those thirty minutes, Paul says he comes home without
Speaker 3: seeing anyone, but he doesn't go down the road to
Speaker 3: ask if William's been found, or talk to anyone to
Speaker 3: let them know which area of bush he's just searched.
Speaker 2: You didn't think to go back and say, hey, he's
Speaker 2: not up there, or have you found him? You've just
Speaker 2: gone back in and had a cup of tea.
Speaker 13: Well, everybody else to make that nice noise.
Speaker 4: What's going to me garring out there and join a
Speaker 4: crowd of people when they're running around like with their throatcut.
Speaker 2: You weren't even curious. You go in there and have
Speaker 2: a cup of two.
Speaker 4: You don't have to be curious when I can hear
Speaker 4: everybody else looking for a little bit, so you.
Speaker 2: Know he's still lost and you're having a cup of tea.
Speaker 13: Well, what else do you want me to do?
Speaker 2: PEPs go out there and help.
Speaker 13: Look, he had a look, and I was thirsty after
Speaker 13: a walk. I press.
Speaker 2: You walk for two hours a day.
Speaker 3: Paul says he stays inside the house for ten minutes.
Speaker 3: In a separate interview, he'll say it was fifteen minutes.
Speaker 3: But neither of those times really add up looking at
Speaker 3: the timings. If Paul walked in the bush for thirty minutes,
Speaker 3: as he says, he must have been home alone drinking
Speaker 3: tea for nearly two hours.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, and at once I finished in there, and
Speaker 4: the brother in law and then showed up.
Speaker 3: Paul says he leaves his house just as his brother
Speaker 3: and sister in law arrive for a planned visit, and
Speaker 3: they say they got there about one pm. Though in
Speaker 3: another interview, Paul says he left his house, walked over
Speaker 3: the road, talked to William's foster grandmother and a police officer,
Speaker 3: then came back and only then saw his relatives car
Speaker 3: pull up.
Speaker 2: Was it just pure cow incidence? Sitting there heaving a
Speaker 2: cup two with all this commotion, the biggest commotion inner
Speaker 2: room drive's ever seen, and you just happened to decide
Speaker 2: to come out just when your brother in law and
Speaker 2: sister in law turner.
Speaker 13: Now, well, what else would you call?
Speaker 2: I'd call it the remarkable coincidence.
Speaker 13: Well, I've got nothing to be ashamed of.
Speaker 2: You'd nothing to be ashamed of.
Speaker 3: No, okay, okay, So I have questions. In an earlier
Speaker 3: interview with the police, Paul says he's pretty sure he
Speaker 3: didn't know that his relatives were coming to visit that day,
Speaker 3: but in this interview with Gary Jubilin, he says maybe
Speaker 3: he did know.
Speaker 4: I can't remember, but I dare say because Heather's brother
Speaker 4: and sister in law were due to arrive, now we're
Speaker 4: coming to visit us.
Speaker 3: Paul himself was also due to leave that morning at
Speaker 3: eleven to drive four hours north to Casino, where his
Speaker 3: brother was getting out of hospital. But it's unsure when
Speaker 3: Paul called his brother that day to say he wasn't coming,
Speaker 3: and why Heather didn't seem to notice anyone out in
Speaker 3: the street earlier that morning when she left for Bingo,
Speaker 3: given we know at least William's foster mother, grandmother, and
Speaker 3: possibly one neighbor were out there around that time looking
Speaker 3: for him. Heather died in the months after William went missing.
Speaker 13: Since you had the passed a while, I heaven left
Speaker 13: this area right.
Speaker 2: And look, you'll love the Heather, I know it's strong.
Speaker 2: And yeah, you walked around with a picture around unique
Speaker 2: for a month or so, as I understand them.
Speaker 3: In case you didn't catch that, Paul agrees that he
Speaker 3: carried a picture of Heather around his neck for a
Speaker 3: month after she died.
Speaker 1: Himself.
Speaker 3: Spoke to police on the day William was reported missing,
Speaker 3: but his house wasn't searched until three days later. A
Speaker 3: year later, a detective spoke to Paul again at home,
Speaker 3: and again in January twenty sixteen. Two months after that,
Speaker 3: in March, Detective Sergeant Laura Beecroft spent four hours with
Speaker 3: Paul taking a formal witness statement, where he described spending
Speaker 3: half an hour in the bush searching for William on
Speaker 3: his own, and.
Speaker 1: How he got a bit lost.
Speaker 3: Paul has said the same thing to me in person,
Speaker 3: though he didn't want to be recorded, and I've got
Speaker 3: questions about that. Also in Kendall, after talking to Paul,
Speaker 3: I walk up the hill from the house where William
Speaker 3: was reported missing, trying to get lost. Paul used to
Speaker 3: walk this track every day, and he said that it's
Speaker 3: quite easy to get lost through the bush here. Even
Speaker 3: from here, you're still just in sight of the roofs
Speaker 3: of the houses. But if you were looking for a
Speaker 3: child and you set off away from the track like this,
Speaker 3: then suddenly it seems quite different. The bush kind of
Speaker 3: swallows you up on either side. Hang on. It is
Speaker 3: pretty thick and it is pretty tangled. But the space
Speaker 3: between the track that I've turned off and the houses
Speaker 3: on Benermon Drive itself isn't that big. So there is
Speaker 3: a little track here, might just be an animal track,
Speaker 3: and then it kind of almost disappears. But I'm gonna
Speaker 3: take it and follow. The longer I spend doing this,
Speaker 3: the harder I find it to understand Paul's explanation of
Speaker 3: his actions, because having been here, you can get these
Speaker 3: glimpses of the houses through the trees, and there's a
Speaker 3: couple of tracks, and everything is on a slope back
Speaker 3: down to the houses of Ben Ruin Drive. And then
Speaker 3: you walk through here for a while and you hit
Speaker 3: this creek, which is in front of me. So it's
Speaker 3: currently dry, maybe five meters wide. But I'm not a local.
Speaker 3: I've been here maybe half a dozen times now, but
Speaker 3: I knew that creek runs behind the houses, and so
Speaker 3: Paul must have known if he walked here every day.
Speaker 3: And if I follow this creek down through the forest
Speaker 3: very quickly, I do see the sun shining off the
Speaker 3: roof of one of the houses behind Benirun Drive. So
Speaker 3: Paul's getting lost in an area that is contained by
Speaker 3: the first track he walked off on, which is a
Speaker 3: basically a fire trail, the slope of the hill, and
Speaker 3: then the dry creek. I do struggle to see how
Speaker 3: he got lost, But I'm not in Paul's mind, and
Speaker 3: so my experience of this today is not Paul's experience.
Speaker 3: And the problem is now to get out of the bush,
Speaker 3: I think I'm gonna have to walk through someone's guard.
Speaker 1: And in fact, and I'm walking through is Paul Savage's garden.
Speaker 3: Another thing that caught the detective's attention was in March
Speaker 3: twenty sixteen when Paul found a covert surveillance camera on
Speaker 3: a tree in the bush surrounding his property. So obviously
Speaker 3: the camera wasn't very covert. The police had put it
Speaker 3: there to keep an eye on someone else, because at
Speaker 3: this point they're investigating more than one of what they
Speaker 3: called persons of interest. And one thing I do know
Speaker 3: about Gary Jubilin is he loves a covert surveillance operation.
Speaker 3: This surveillance camera kept recording as Paul picked it up,
Speaker 3: looked straight into it, then took the camera inside.
Speaker 2: When Polson working and looking around this area, you find
Speaker 2: the camera and just hang on to it. If a
Speaker 2: police didn't turn up with a view, just hung on
Speaker 2: to it forever.
Speaker 13: No I that in Lauren Blues.
Speaker 2: When would of you have taken into.
Speaker 13: I'm not quite sure how long I didn't have it
Speaker 13: all that long.
Speaker 2: How long did he have.
Speaker 4: If you had the camera, mister Savage, approximately five weeks.
Speaker 13: I don't know that long. I can tell you how long.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you had the camera for five weeks.
Speaker 13: Well, that's not a small amount of Tom.
Speaker 1: The voice you can hear.
Speaker 3: There is Detective Sergeant Laura Beecroft, who is the detective
Speaker 3: looking at Paul Savage. Based on what she told him.
Speaker 3: Gary Jublin decided to make Paul the focus of the
Speaker 3: strike Forces investigation, and Paul's home and phones are placed
Speaker 3: under surveillance. The police also put a tracker on his car.
Speaker 3: Two undercover cops are sent in to talk to Paul,
Speaker 3: one posing as a freelance journalist, the other as a psychic,
Speaker 3: both wanting to talk about William Tyrol and the listening
Speaker 3: devices are recording and the po are waiting to see
Speaker 3: how Paul reacts. Now, if you're thinking that sounds similar
Speaker 3: to what police did with their previous person of interest,
Speaker 3: Bill Spreading, using covert surveillance then dialing up the pressure
Speaker 3: to see if someone will crack, then yeah, it's from
Speaker 3: the same playbook.
Speaker 1: I told you.
Speaker 3: Gary likes a surveillance operation, and one thing Gary himself
Speaker 3: was focused on was the fact that Paul also had
Speaker 3: a history of approaching people when he might not be welcome,
Speaker 3: including William's foster grandmother.
Speaker 2: No one's ever asked you to stay away from a
Speaker 2: house because you make him feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 13: That's right.
Speaker 2: No one's ever done it, not that I know, okay.
Speaker 3: But William's foster grandmother had done that, asking Paul's wife, Heather,
Speaker 3: to pass on the message.
Speaker 13: Well, if that's it, I used to go up there
Speaker 13: and i'd ask her, did she on a hand? That's
Speaker 13: I was worried about.
Speaker 2: Her, and heaven didn't relate to you. To stay away
Speaker 2: because you're making her feel uncomfortable. Think about this, ye.
Speaker 13: I am, I'm trying to remembers.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 13: Yeah.
Speaker 3: None of this is evidence that Paul had anything to
Speaker 3: do with William's disappearance. But Gary does go on raising
Speaker 3: the fact that there's an apprehended violence order in place
Speaker 3: against Paul preventing him from approaching the local postwoman. That
Speaker 3: postwoman didn't want to talk about it when I call her,
Speaker 3: But court documents say that in the years before William
Speaker 3: was reported missing, more than once Paul did approach her,
Speaker 3: crying and shaking, saying I love you, or I want
Speaker 3: to spend more time with you, or followed the postwoman
Speaker 3: in his car saying I can't live like this not
Speaker 3: seeing you. Eventually, Australia posts stopped delivering to Paula's house. Then,
Speaker 3: after the av OH was granted, Paul approached the postwoman again,
Speaker 3: saying he wanted to wish her a happy birthday. He
Speaker 3: was charged and pleaded guilty to breaching an av oh,
Speaker 3: but when questioned about it by Gary, Paul denies his
Speaker 3: behavior was threatening, calling the court case a conspiracy.
Speaker 2: The idea was a lad, explain to me how you
Speaker 2: stalking a woman is a setup.
Speaker 13: I never thought to her at any time.
Speaker 2: So it's all lies with So when you went into
Speaker 2: the post office cry and shaking, that was a lie
Speaker 2: and everyone that saw it said it was a lie.
Speaker 13: What when did I go in crime? I went in
Speaker 13: there once and I was upset and I was crying.
Speaker 2: Why were you upset and crying?
Speaker 4: Because our film really depressed. So I went home and
Speaker 4: I went straight back and I apologized.
Speaker 2: Right and when the police issued an abo. Yeah, what
Speaker 2: happened after that?
Speaker 13: After the abo? Yeah, bloody nothing.
Speaker 2: You didn't get charged?
Speaker 13: Oh yeah, because I got one day's notice to get help.
Speaker 2: One day's notice to get help. What are you talking about?
Speaker 4: Well, I had to court on Tuesday. I got nothing
Speaker 4: on Saturday night to turn up in court. I had
Speaker 4: no idea what I had to do.
Speaker 2: Look, mister Savage, what I think we need to take
Speaker 2: a step back. I'm not sitting here in judgment of you.
Speaker 2: But what I can't sit here and is take lies.
Speaker 4: Okay, okay, then now that and have been because that's
Speaker 4: a pack of rubbies.
Speaker 13: It's not a pack of it is the pack of rubbies.
Speaker 13: Well you ask her, I have asked her. Okay, then you.
Speaker 4: I asked her, why did you ring me in July,
Speaker 4: three months after I got the ADL on me?
Speaker 13: Why did you ring me and told me? She loved me?
Speaker 13: She loves you, That's what she said.
Speaker 2: Let's get this clear. You're telling me that this wasn't
Speaker 2: you stalking her. She was in love with you.
Speaker 13: I didn't stalk that.
Speaker 2: She's in love with you.
Speaker 13: It's invitably.
Speaker 3: You can hear it in Paul's voice. Now, the pressure building,
Speaker 3: and at his home, the listening devices were in place.
Speaker 3: The transcript of what's recorded on just one of those
Speaker 3: devices in Paul's kitchen runs to over one hundred pages,
Speaker 3: though the quality of the devices themselves wasn't great, so
Speaker 3: there's gaps in the recordings where no one can make
Speaker 3: out what Paul is saying, or places where the transcript
Speaker 3: says file does not exist, And in other places there's
Speaker 3: disputes between detectives, with one saying they heard one thing
Speaker 3: and another saying they heard something else.
Speaker 1: What you can say is.
Speaker 3: That almost always Paul is talking on his own, sometimes
Speaker 3: ranting at the television. Often it seems like he's talking
Speaker 3: to his dead wife, Heather. He calls her angel or
Speaker 3: more often Mum. He breaks down sobbing or seems bitter,
Speaker 3: saying things like you set me up, don't lie, lunatic,
Speaker 3: or no one will know it was you. Listening to
Speaker 3: these recordings, Gary Jubilin decided to increase the.
Speaker 7: Pressure, okay, recording Where we Go.
Speaker 3: Was this track where the police under Gary Jubilin left
Speaker 3: the Spider Man suit for Paul Savage to find, deliberately
Speaker 3: left it for him to find on his morning walk.
Speaker 3: A Spider Man suit was what three year old William
Speaker 3: Tyrrell was wearing on the morning he was reported missing.
Speaker 3: And at this point, Paul Savage under pressure. He's got
Speaker 3: listening devices in his house, listening device in his car,
Speaker 3: his phone calls are being recorded, and the idea is
Speaker 3: just to increase that pressure but putting a Spider Man's
Speaker 3: suit last identified with a disappeared three year old on
Speaker 3: the path of his morning walk. I mean, I've said
Speaker 3: this to Gary jud but it sounds crazy. But they
Speaker 3: did it, and then they watched his reaction. The people
Speaker 3: watching Paul's reaction were specialized surveillance officers brought up from
Speaker 3: Sydney and waiting hidden in the scrub on either side.
Speaker 3: Paul walks up, wearing in a coubra hat with a
Speaker 3: water bottle hanging over his shoulder. He gets to the
Speaker 3: suit and stops a few meters from where it lies,
Speaker 3: and Paul looks one, two, three four. The waiting police
Speaker 3: count twelve seconds, and at the same time they're filming
Speaker 3: Paul and taking photographs. Unfortunately, all of the photos we've
Speaker 3: seen taken by the surveillance police who are hiding in
Speaker 3: the bushes on either side, none of them show Paul
Speaker 3: and the Spider Man suit in the same frame, so
Speaker 3: none of them conclusively show that he is definitely looking
Speaker 3: at that suit. They show that he's looking in the
Speaker 3: direction of where the suit is known to be, and
Speaker 3: the specialist surveillance cops who were in the bushes reported
Speaker 3: that they saw him looking at the suit. But because
Speaker 3: you haven't got that one bit of photographic evidence that
Speaker 3: proves it conclusively, it's always open to doubt. What's not
Speaker 3: open to doubt is that Paul does not report seeing
Speaker 3: the suit that morning. Instead, he goes home, where the
Speaker 3: listening device cords him saying something like have to do it,
Speaker 3: though on the transcript one detective has added a comment
Speaker 3: that says, possibly, why did I have to do it?
Speaker 3: Or why did they have to do it? It's not certain.
Speaker 3: So the next day the police left the suit out
Speaker 3: waiting for Paul. Again, you've got this guy under surveillance.
Speaker 3: You want to know what he might know, either to
Speaker 3: include him or to exclude him from your investigations, so
Speaker 3: you just dial up the pressure. I mean, there's a
Speaker 3: whole question about how fair that is or how much
Speaker 3: trauma you might be exposing this guy too. But then
Speaker 3: you rationalize that if you're the police, by saying, we're
Speaker 3: investigating a possible child abduction, so almost anything we do
Speaker 3: is okay because we're trying to put right that wrong.
Speaker 3: The next day, Paul leaves for his morning walk at
Speaker 3: seven point thirty three am thirty seven. The waiting police
Speaker 3: watch him stop, bend over to look at the Spider
Speaker 3: Man's suit, then stand walk back the way he came.
Speaker 3: Paul starts to run as he enters his driveway, and
Speaker 3: within minutes he's on the phone reporting seeing the suit
Speaker 3: to the police. And later that same morning, Paul's recorded
Speaker 3: on a listening device in his house saying the suit
Speaker 3: wasn't there yesterday, He couldn't have missed it and sobbing
Speaker 3: the word mum.
Speaker 5: It's almost like the Truman Show. I kind of think
Speaker 5: it'll be quite hard to come through this and not
Speaker 5: have that in the back of your mind for a
Speaker 5: long time.
Speaker 3: I don't think anyone's come through this investigation unscathed, because
Speaker 3: once you've had the experience, like on your morning walk,
Speaker 3: you literally had police on either side hiding watching you.
Speaker 3: How you ever let that go, particularly if you're innocent.
Speaker 3: But then the police's job is to establish whether or
Speaker 3: not you're innocent, and so the question is how far
Speaker 3: is it okay for them to go to establish your
Speaker 3: innocence or your guilt. In his interview with Paul Savage,
Speaker 3: Gary Jubilin goes at him hard, accusing Paul of lying
Speaker 3: about whether he saw that suit.
Speaker 1: The first morning.
Speaker 2: This fascinates me that you can sit here and lie
Speaker 2: to me like that when I know and you know,
Speaker 2: you're telling a lie.
Speaker 13: No, I'm not. I'm not lying.
Speaker 4: I walked up there, I'm seen that suit, and I
Speaker 4: went straight back home.
Speaker 13: I ranged the police and.
Speaker 2: I just sorry. It just fascinates me that you can
Speaker 2: lie like this.
Speaker 13: I'm not lying. I'm not lying. I'm not interested in lying.
Speaker 13: What is a lie?
Speaker 2: Well, then if you don't think you're lying, then you're
Speaker 2: totally delusional. And everything you're telling me comes in. They
Speaker 2: get me nis air and just let.
Speaker 1: Up the rock dead.
Speaker 2: Well you considered that the first.
Speaker 13: I went right down and reported it.
Speaker 2: No you didn't, Yes, I did. No, you're lie.
Speaker 13: I'm not lying.
Speaker 3: Back at Paul's home, the listening devices are recording as
Speaker 3: he repeatedly denies seeing the Spider Man suit. On the
Speaker 3: first of the two days police left it on the
Speaker 3: bush track. Paul says other things to himself. Also one day,
Speaker 3: Paul says, no, no, he tells me what he's going
Speaker 3: to do. No, he tells me that he's going to
Speaker 3: whether I want it or not.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I'm going to run into your property too.
Speaker 3: This is my place. You're in my place. You do
Speaker 3: what I want. You're a little boy. You're nobody. You're
Speaker 3: just a little boy. You're nobody. You don't tell me,
Speaker 3: I'll tell you. I did tell you another time. He
Speaker 3: says murderers are sick and charge abuses a rotten bit
Speaker 3: of rubbish. Paul accuses Gary Jubilin of setting him up
Speaker 3: and insists on his innocence over anything to do with
Speaker 3: William Tyrol. He says police are going to try and
Speaker 3: square it up on me. I haven't got a witness.
Speaker 3: It's all lies, He says, he now won't help police.
Speaker 3: I was going to tell them about the two boys,
Speaker 3: but bugger it, He says, I couldn't hurt a kid,
Speaker 3: and later, I haven't deliberately hurt anything or anybody in
Speaker 3: a long, long time. Paul says he can't sleep because
Speaker 3: of the police investigation, meaning the pressure is getting to him.
Speaker 3: He talks about his dead wife, Heather, saying he's sorry,
Speaker 3: saying quote, he's a boy and great, they're going to
Speaker 3: find something. Mum, don't dob on me, okay, And oh mum,
Speaker 3: what do I do?
Speaker 1: What do I do?
Speaker 3: Later the same day, Paul says, what is it God?
Speaker 3: And forgive me?
Speaker 1: Please? What did I do? Mar? What did I do?
Speaker 3: And a couple of days later, on the tenth of
Speaker 3: September twenty seventeen, Paul moans and possibly talks in his sleep, saying,
Speaker 3: it is what it is, and you've done it again.
Speaker 3: You've done it again. You're going overboard, you know. On
Speaker 3: the eleventh of September twenty seventeen, that's one day before
Speaker 3: the third anniversary of William's disappearance, Paul says, it's in
Speaker 3: the paper, that's the last time I seen him. And
Speaker 3: because it's true, it's true if I don't remember, because
Speaker 3: it's true. Other people stirring things up. And he says,
Speaker 3: get it right, mate, They had no proof, nothing, because
Speaker 3: there can't be nothing ever happened. And he says his
Speaker 3: memories are gone. He says, I can't remember anything. If
Speaker 3: you tell me what you were doing on eleven thirty five,
Speaker 3: on the twelfth of fucking September in twenty fourteen, can
Speaker 3: you remember? And he says to himself, but I think
Speaker 3: he's imagining talking to Gary. I've not lied to you once.
Speaker 3: I might have forgotten things. I might have twisted them up.
Speaker 3: But I've not lied. I don't lie to you. I
Speaker 3: make mistakes, and that I think is all that you
Speaker 3: can take from the thousands of hours of listening device
Speaker 3: recordings that Paul can be mistaken, meaning even Paul Savage
Speaker 3: sometimes doesn't know whether his own thoughts are accurate.
Speaker 2: So I get then, Look, I'm actually look stop, I'm
Speaker 2: not interested in your making up your lives.
Speaker 13: I'm not making up live all right.
Speaker 2: We'll move on to the next next thing. Okay, but
Speaker 2: that saam, We'll just have to change some tapes. So
Speaker 2: the time now is two thirty three pm. The interview
Speaker 2: between Detective Chief Inspector Jubilin and mister Paul Savage is suspended.
Speaker 3: During this break in his interview with the detectives, Paul
Speaker 3: leaves the room to use the toilet. Unrecorded, the two detectives,
Speaker 3: Laura Beecroft and Gary Jubilin talk about whether they think
Speaker 3: Paul really did see the Spider Man suit that they
Speaker 3: left on the bush track on the first day or
Speaker 3: only on the second as Paul claims. Laura thinks Paul's
Speaker 3: telling the truth, but Gary Jubilin still has questions.
Speaker 14: The interview resumes electronic we recorded interview between Detective Chief
Speaker 14: Inspector Gary Jubilant and mister Paul Savage.
Speaker 2: Recommenced the time is two forty two pm. Yes, all right,
Speaker 2: Well we'll continue on with the.
Speaker 3: Interview outside the interview room. Disagreement between the detectives is
Speaker 3: starting to divide the police strike Force. Not all of
Speaker 3: them are as driven as Gary Juberlin or Craig Lambert,
Speaker 3: the two leaders. Some are less motivated or unhappy to
Speaker 3: be there, or have other human failings. One member of
Speaker 3: the strike force will later leave the cops after an
Speaker 3: internal investigation found he had sex in his police car
Speaker 3: while on duty, took photos of his genitalia in the office,
Speaker 3: and pretended to be at work when he wasn't. And
Speaker 3: others among the strike force are also hard to manage.
Speaker 3: Some start to disagree with Gary's focus on Paul Savage,
Speaker 3: and Gary's answer is always to keep working.
Speaker 2: If you're sitting there and you honestly believe you're telling
Speaker 2: me the truth about the spider Man suit, I know
Speaker 2: you're lying and that.
Speaker 4: You don't I'm telling you the truth. I never say
Speaker 4: that the I before. Why would I leave it to
Speaker 4: die and then go? They han't ring up.
Speaker 2: Why would I do that because you're involved in the
Speaker 2: abduction of William tyrrel.
Speaker 13: I am why would I bile the line This is
Speaker 13: bybly ridiculous. I'm not a liar.
Speaker 3: At the same time he is running this investigation, Gary's
Speaker 3: also going through a divorce his second and his strike
Speaker 3: force is starting to founder under the sheer weight of
Speaker 3: their workload. By the end of twenty seventeen, they have
Speaker 3: over fourteen thousand separate products meaning reports or photographs or
Speaker 3: documents to work through about William. They have listening device
Speaker 3: recordings still to go through. Some of those on the strikeforce,
Speaker 3: like Craig Lambert, have thousands of tasks allocated to them.
Speaker 3: Craig later describes their workload saying, quote, from start to
Speaker 3: finish of my shift, I'm literally churning through these products
Speaker 3: as quickly as possible. It was a race against myself
Speaker 3: to get them done onto the next bang bang bang bang.
Speaker 3: Police records show Gary's repeatedly asking for more staff, but
Speaker 3: his staff numbers are cut instead by his bosses, and
Speaker 3: stuff gets missed and information keeps on coming in, not
Speaker 3: least because the Where's William campaign keeps encouraging people to
Speaker 3: come forward, meaning despite everything the police are doing to
Speaker 3: exclude them, the number of people on their persons of
Speaker 3: interest list increasing. There is a difficulty in targeting any
Speaker 3: person of interest as we have literally no evidence, Gary
Speaker 3: writes in one report to his bosses. He warns the
Speaker 3: investigation could go on for years.
Speaker 2: I'll strip it down. I won't even call you mister Savage.
Speaker 2: I'll call you Paul.
Speaker 13: Yeah. Well, less of this one, okay.
Speaker 2: Because this is we're getting down to the nitty gritty.
Speaker 13: Yep, which is good.
Speaker 3: Gary Strikeforce start turning on each other, criticizing him between themselves,
Speaker 3: and particularly Gary's focus on Paul Savage. Some of the
Speaker 3: junior detectives even drive up to Kendall, walk out along
Speaker 3: the bush track and try to prove Paul couldn't have
Speaker 3: seen the Spider Man suit that first morning when he
Speaker 3: did not report it. Only they can't prove it, and
Speaker 3: their mini investigation is kind of fascicle. They don't even
Speaker 3: take a tape measure to make sure they know where
Speaker 3: Paul was standing. But it does prove that Gary's grip
Speaker 3: on his team is slipping and he can no longer
Speaker 3: trust them to back each other and his leadership. Gary
Speaker 3: keeps on working, pushing himself and the team around him harder.
Speaker 3: He makes some bad decisions. Three times, in twenty seventeen
Speaker 3: and twenty eighteen, Gary visits Paul at home alone. Their
Speaker 3: conversations are recorded on the listening devices and also on
Speaker 3: Gary's mobile. Gary also records a phone conversation with Paul,
Speaker 3: asking again about the Spider Man's suit.
Speaker 2: Hello, Paul, Gary, jubilant here from the place.
Speaker 3: At the same time, Gary's preparing to hold an inquest
Speaker 3: into William's disappearance. The sole reason Gary wants to have
Speaker 3: this inquest is to pray Paul, to ask him everything
Speaker 3: how he got lost in the bush. The listening device
Speaker 3: recordings the Spider Man suit, whether he did or didn't
Speaker 3: see it, But preparing for the inquest means even more
Speaker 3: work for the strikeforce, which is now disintegrating, to the
Speaker 3: point that Gary and his officer in charge, Craig Lambert,
Speaker 3: physically square off against each other in the offices of
Speaker 3: the Homicide Squad and have to be separated. Craig, who
Speaker 3: thinks the continued pursuit of Paul Savage is wrongheaded and
Speaker 3: a waste of time, has his gun taken from him
Speaker 3: and is escorted from the building. Gary goes back to work.
Speaker 3: The inquest is due to start in months in March
Speaker 3: twenty nineteen. There are other persons of interest other than
Speaker 3: Paul that Gary asks his team to look at on
Speaker 3: top of this. On the nineteenth of January, weeks out
Speaker 3: the inquest, Gary is sent to Northern New South Wales,
Speaker 3: a seven hour drive from Sydney, to investigate the shooting
Speaker 3: of two police officers. The next day, the twentieth of January,
Speaker 3: he's sent to Newcastle to lead another murder investigation. Two
Speaker 3: days later, on the twenty second, Gary is told that
Speaker 3: he's under internal investigation and taken off all active homicide cases,
Speaker 3: meaning he never works on the disappearance of William Tyrol again.
Speaker 3: In March twenty nineteen, Paul gave evidence at the inquest
Speaker 3: looking at what happened to William. He said his memory
Speaker 3: was now a bit cloudy and gave some of his
Speaker 3: evidence in private behind closed doors. So we don't know
Speaker 3: if Paul was asked about what he said on those
Speaker 3: listening device recus recordings, or whether he did see the
Speaker 3: Spider Man suit on that first day or only on
Speaker 3: the second, like he told the police.
Speaker 13: I did not see the suit, and I before or
Speaker 13: I want to record them help I can.
Speaker 3: And speaking of listening device recordings, after Paul Savage leaves
Speaker 3: this interview with the detectives, he's recorded on a listening
Speaker 3: device in his car, saying, make sure you don't tell
Speaker 3: anyone love. They're right after me. Don't tell anyone love, please,
Speaker 3: they're right after me. Sorry. And we don't know if
Speaker 3: he was ever asked about that as well. Years later,
Speaker 3: when I go up to Kendall for this podcast, I
Speaker 3: park on Benirum Drive and Paul walks up. We get talking.
Speaker 3: Paul tells me he did see the suit. He doesn't
Speaker 3: want to be recalled, but I make shorthand notes as
Speaker 3: he's talking. Paul says, on the first day, he saw
Speaker 3: only the top and thought, I don't know about that,
Speaker 3: and maybe it was some other kids who left it.
Speaker 3: He says, the next day he saw the whole suit.
Speaker 3: He says he did think of William Tyrell when he
Speaker 3: saw half the suit, but because it was only the top,
Speaker 3: he thought it wasn't important. On the second day, when
Speaker 3: he saw the whole suit, Paul says, I thought it
Speaker 3: was probably his williams He says, I felt hopeful. I
Speaker 3: hoped we could solve the case. I ask him why
Speaker 3: he didn't tell the police this at the time, and
Speaker 3: Paul doesn't really explain it. He says, I've left it
Speaker 3: a bit longer than I should have, but it will
Speaker 3: come out eventually, only it hasn't until now. At the inquest,
Speaker 3: one of the detectives, Laura Beecroft, said she didn't think
Speaker 3: Paul was still what she called an active person of interest,
Speaker 3: but at that point Laura herself was no longer on
Speaker 3: the strikeforce so couldn't be certain. But one of the
Speaker 3: detectives who's still working on the investigation gave evidence about Paul.
Speaker 3: In a separate court hearing that detective Mark Jukes, said
Speaker 3: there was no exculpatory evidence that I was aware of
Speaker 3: that could completely eliminate Paul Savage from the investigation. In court,
Speaker 3: Mark said his view was that Paul should not be
Speaker 3: written out of the case. That was in February twenty nineteen,
Speaker 3: just after Gary Jubilin was taken off it. But I
Speaker 3: think that's what happened. The police are no longer looking
Speaker 3: at Paul Savage, and Paul is eighteen now and even
Speaker 3: he admits his memories can be mistaken. There are still
Speaker 3: unanswered questions. Nina, the producer on this podcast, spoke to
Speaker 3: Paul on the phone last week and he said no
Speaker 3: one from the police had been to talk to him
Speaker 3: since Gary was taken off the investigation. And that decision
Speaker 3: to take Gary off the investigation that changed everything, and
Speaker 3: we'll get into that in detail next week on Witness.
Speaker 1: William tyrrel.
Speaker 2: This electronic interview between Detective Inspector Jubilee and Paul Savage
Speaker 2: is now concluded. Before I turned the tapes off, ask
Speaker 2: you a couple of questions. Oh, has any threat, promise
Speaker 2: or inducement been held out to you to give the
Speaker 2: answers you were given in this interview? Have you provided
Speaker 2: those answers of your own free will listen? Is there
Speaker 2: anything further you wish to say in relation to this manner?
Speaker 13: I didn't know. I'm gonna work inside. I can't hips obviously,
Speaker 13: all right, thank you.
Speaker 3: A lot of different people have been involved in making
Speaker 3: this series. Among them, the executive producer is Nina Young.
Speaker 3: The sound design was by Tiffany Dimack. The producers have
Speaker 3: been Emily Pigeon, Nicholas Adams, jazz Bar, Phoebe Zakowski, Wallace
Speaker 3: and Tabby Wilson. Research by Adan Patrick, original music by
Speaker 3: Rory O'Connor. Our lawyer is Stephen Coombs. The editor at
Speaker 3: news dot com dot Au is Kerry Warren.
Speaker 1: I'm Dan Box