WEBVTT - Pressure | William Tyrrell: 8 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:04.920 Should you just tell me where we go? 0:00:05.960 --> 0:00:09.239 We're heading into the township I suppose you call it 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:13.080 the Kendall where William Tyrell disappeared. 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:17.680 From this time, driving back to Kendall, I'm traveling with 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:20.919 Gary Jubilin, the detective who led the investigation. 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:23.080 How long has it been since you were here? 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:29.480 Oh, there would be a matter of three years, four years, 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:32.240 I'd say that since I've been up here. 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:35.879 Like I've said before, Gary and I go back a 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:41.840 long way, and my first impression of him was he's interesting. 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:47.720 That hasn't changed the lawn, and that brings back every 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:48.520 memory in the book. 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:52.080 What memories are. 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:57.640 I think an overriding one of sadness of what's happened 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:00.920 in this town and what's happened to William. 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:05.760 Gary doesn't hide his feelings. He's capable of great compassion, 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:08.200 but also anger. 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:11.520 With that sadness that there's a frustration. It probably a 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:14.240 better term his anger, but I'll try to be nice 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:19.400 and say frustration in the way that the matter's been handled. 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:21.080 He's driven. 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:25.880 It was a tough investigation, but it was an investigation that, Yeah, 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:30.040 I was up for the challenge. I've been investigating homicide 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:34.680 for a long time, and I was confident that, yeah, 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:35.920 I would get a result on it. 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:42.360 There are other words people used to describe him, because 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:46.959 Gary has made enemies, partly because he had a way 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:49.720 of getting in the newspapers and on television. 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:52.520 You see this, Yeah, well he was kidnapped this member 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:54.720 and then done putting a strike force on it. 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:56.800 I'm going to put my hand up. 0:01:57.800 --> 0:01:58.840 You go for God, Gary. 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:02.320 If all he and I met, Gary had been the 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:06.400 subject of a primetime TV drama about his life and 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:11.639 another of his investigations. That show was called Underbelly, and 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:14.240 this is how they described him. 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:17.920 Gary Kevin Jubilan was an aries, a practicing Buddhist and 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:20.000 drank green tea instead of coffee. 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:23.160 His workmates called him crazy fuck. 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:28.519 The green tea and the nickname. That's all true. I'd 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:32.200 add the shaved head, the nose he's broken three times 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:37.119 boxing the facts. Gary meditates to find some inner balance 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:40.200 and can also be so demanding. 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:41.680 He's told more than one. 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:44.320 Of his bosses to fuck off if they can't get 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:48.600 him more time, resources, or staff for his investigations. 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:50.960 I heard you request that, as Elizabe. 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:53.320 I know this. 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:57.280 Every time you put your hit up I'm going to 0:02:57.400 --> 0:02:57.639 kick it. 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:02.440 But the thing that really stands out to me about 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:06.399 Gary is the way he pursued his cases. 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:08.760 It's taken us years and now I've gone you. 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:11.160 To destruction. 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:13.480 So if you really want to help yourself, then you 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:13.920 make a. 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:17.360 Statement putting pressure on a suspect. 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:18.359 Tell me what. 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:21.359 Happened, doing everything he could think. 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:22.359 Of to crack them. 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:27.000 Why he did it at the risk even of ruining 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:29.240 their life or his own. 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:37.160 Yeah, we're heading down towards where William, who was the 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:40.640 last saying alive in being around drive and that's something 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:45.800 that has played very heavily in my life, this particular road. 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:56.200 And yeah, we'll stop and look at the house. How 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:59.200 does a child disappear from there? And we haven't got 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:04.320 the answers and yo, as the New South Wales place, 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:06.240 we should be judged by it. These are the type 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:07.680 of cases that you need to solve. 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:14.120 I'm Dan box and from News dot com dot Au. 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:18.039 This is Witness William Tyrell Episode eight. 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:19.400 Pressure. 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:26.800 You know, you could feel the tension, You could feel 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:28.720 that the bosses were doing things that they were all 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:31.520 by the book. This might sound a strange thing to say, 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:33.800 but you could just see there was at tension to detail. 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:36.960 This is another of the cops who worked on the 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:41.120 investigation into William's disappearance in September twenty fourteen. 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:45.160 Normally, you know, cops, we trivialize things because it's like, oh, 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:48.279 we've been to a million missing kids and we found them. 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:51.960 But for this to happen, they don't want to be identified. 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:55.479 So Nina, the producer on this podcast, is reading their words. 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:59.520 You've got the sense of like, oh, everyone's definitely taking 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:01.640 it on as a serious detective investigation. 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:05.800 But that doesn't mean everything was working smoothly. 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:09.320 As soon as we got there, we had tasks, so 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:11.120 they're just kind of giving us stuff to do. But 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:14.080 you know, they weren't telling us much. I didn't really 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:16.280 get a sense of or any briefing of how they 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:17.000 were attacking it. 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:21.280 This was before Gary Jubilin was put in charge, when 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:23.840 the strike force was being led by a detective called 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:24.720 hands Up. 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:28.880 Hands Up was pretty old school. I never never had 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:31.520 a conversation with him. Gary was the first person that 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:34.160 when he came aboard, he wanted everyone to tell him 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:35.919 what they thought. He didn't care whether I was a 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:38.320 constable or I was a detective or if I was 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:40.560 the boss. He wanted to know. He wanted to get 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:41.840 everyone's ideas. 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:45.720 This was around the start of twenty fifteen when Hans 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:48.719 retired and Gary Jubilin took over the investigation. 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:51.320 When he came in and I met him and we 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:54.120 chatted that first day, I saw him as a real 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:57.640 fucking detective. He was the real deal. Like I knew 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.640 about the underbelly and all that bullshit. But you know, 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:02.920 it wasn't until he came on board that I really 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:05.440 actually understood, Oh, this is what we've got to do. 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:07.360 We've got to put this timeline together. 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:08.240 We've got to do this. 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.120 We've got to do that. He wants everyone's import he 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:13.720 wants everyone to talk. He wants you to go and 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:16.200 have a beer after work and discuss things and argue 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:19.719 over ideas and theories, because that's how shit happens. I 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:23.200 really enjoyed working under Gary's direction because he sort of 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:26.039 thinks like a business person, where it's like time, we've 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:28.320 got to get this shit done. We've got a deadline. 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:29.440 We've got to figure this out. 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:33.200 You know, Gary didn't want things to get slowed down 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:36.440 by the petty bureaucracies you often run up against in 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:40.919 the police force, like not wanting to pay overtime, or 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:45.960 which police commander would let others use which resources, even 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:49.080 if that meant Gary falling out with other bosses. 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:52.080 People ask me about it, and what I say is 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:54.960 he's tenacious and he'll do things that you would expect 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:58.600 cops in movies to do, but that's not reality, and 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:01.240 he's the guy that would do that. So if one 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:04.479 of my family members was murdered, I want Gary to investigate. 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:05.760 That's how I explain it. 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:11.880 Gary also found supporters in William Tyrell's foster parents, who 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:15.240 were now approaching the anniversary of his disappearance. 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:23.480 The anniversary brings a huge amount of mixed emotions. Again, 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:31.800 we don't have an outcome. We don't know whether he's 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:34.440 whereabouts or anything. 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:38.440 This is William's foster father speaking at the time to 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:40.040 the journalist Leah Harris. 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:47.280 It's quite scary to think that we don't have you 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:53.800 know anything. One you're on. I crossed my fingers, I 0:07:55.520 --> 0:08:11.480 look into I look into can you mother, and just 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:13.000 proposed for his return. 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:20.840 The first time Gary met the foster parents, he looked 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:23.080 at them as potential suspects. 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:26.160 When we were meeting. I could feel that he was 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:29.160 just sizing me up, and you know, you could feel 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:30.960 the suspicion coming all over again. 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:35.000 This is William's foster mother. In another interview with Leah Harris. 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:39.320 At that point, I'd never heard of Gary jubut I know, 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:44.280 connection or reference to the name whatsoever. I googled him 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:47.800 and I thought, wow, this is good, this is really good. 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:51.000 He'd been on a number of he'd been on a 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:56.440 number of high profile yeah. But I remember somebody telling 0:08:56.480 --> 0:09:01.480 me that he was the character on an underbelt and 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:06.240 I'm thinking, oh my god and thinking wow, okay. But 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:10.440 what it gave us, I think, was this sense of 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:12.400 We've got the right guy. 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:18.800 Eventually, Gary discounted the foster parents as likely suspects, just 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:23.320 like hands Rup had done before him. And William's foster parents. 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:25.480 They grew close to Gary. 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:28.400 We had the then Ministry of Police telling us that 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:32.040 he was new South Wales Police top cop. We had 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:34.880 people within the police force telling us we don't have 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:41.080 anybody better. We trusted, we trusted police, We trusted him. 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:46.040 Between them, Gary Jubilin and William's foster parents turbo charged 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:50.560 the investigation into the three year old's disappearance. Instead of 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:56.160 just being a police matter, it became a massive publicity campaign. 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:02.720 The Where's William campaign launched in twenty fifteen. That August, 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:05.839 there was this public performance of bring Him Home from 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:07.640 the musical lem Asarabler. 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:23.360 They are focus today at and supporting other Where's William campaign. 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:25.800 Local politicians spoke up. 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:28.760 I can only imagine as a father and is apparent 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:32.120 the grief and the anxiety that the family is going through. 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:36.439 There were TV news reports. 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:39.079 Let's continue to work together to bring William home. 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:43.480 There were billboards, thousands of leaflets were distributed. 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:47.040 Where's William wig the search for Little William Tyrell on 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:50.720 wearing the badge that they've released. They're putting out flyers, 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:53.720 They're asking for everyone to get involved, get on board. 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:58.520 William's foster parents were driving this behind the scenes, although 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:02.559 the state government barred them from speaking publicly because William 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:03.760 was a child in care. 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:06.559 William is a little boy who needs to be home. 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:11.320 With his family, so instead they provided a written statement. 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:17.319 Please please, whoever you are, if you know something about 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:21.400 William's disappearance, please help police find our little boy. 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:25.760 Tens of thousands of people took part in Walk for 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:28.319 William events right across Australia. 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:31.360 They're looking at what is called a Walk for William now. 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:33.800 These will be held across New South Wales as well 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:34.960 as in Queensland. 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:39.640 Other walks took place in New York, Canada, New Zealand, 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:41.000 Japan and Ireland. 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:44.240 We are expecting up to a thousand people to pack 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:45.520 into the Kendall Showgrounds. 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:48.880 The Kendall Showgrounds had been the focus of the search 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:51.120 effort after William first went missing. 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:53.400 The grand of applause to for Gary and his team. 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:56.840 It's obviously at distressing time for them, and I'd been 0:11:56.880 --> 0:11:58.120 doing a fantastic job. 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:02.679 Everybody involved in the search was invited to say thank you. 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:05.760 There were flags and cake and a big book for 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:08.880 people to sign, and Gary spoke, we don't. 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:11.720 Have any self doubt in regards to this investigation. We're 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:14.120 going out of hammer and tongs and doing everything that 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:14.640 we can do. 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:17.280 And if you signed the book there was a chance 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:21.199 to win a prepaid visa card. But really it was 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:25.199 part of a covert operation because Gary wanted to identify 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:28.920 the people who turned up in case the person responsible 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:32.120 for William's disappearance was somewhere among the. 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:39.200 Crowd and we had one hundred and twelve taxi backs 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:44.240 between Sydney and Brisbane. We had one thousand bumper stickers 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:47.240 all around the area. We had one hundred thousand coasters 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:50.440 go out around the mid North Coast and around Sydney 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:52.120 in key areas. 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:55.520 With the whole purpose behind that is that people have 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:57.880 a few drinks and if they know something, they might 0:12:57.920 --> 0:12:58.520 say something. 0:12:58.760 --> 0:12:59.280 Yeah. 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:01.800 So everything that we did was strategic. 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:05.600 Claire and Alice Collins are a mother and daughter team 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:07.560 who run a small pr company. 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:10.880 There are so many cases of missing children over the 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:16.600 years that have just disappeared into people's memory. They don't 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:20.720 know about those children because there was no campaign. Everyone 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:23.960 knows about William. I'm not saying that's because of us, 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:31.840 but the campaign I think pushed his face and his 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:35.400 message into nearly every single home across Australia. 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:39.719 Working for free alongside the police and foster parents, they 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:43.800 organized the Where's William campaign, eventually taking it to the 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:48.000 State Parliament. Thank you the Premier, Administer of Justice and Police, 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:52.760 the Honorable Troy Rats and those in law enforcement, campaigners 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:53.800 and politicians. 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:56.400 Wept openly and it. 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:57.240 Starts with William. 0:13:57.880 --> 0:13:59.800 It starts with we're going to bring him home. 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:04.480 In its first year, the Where's William Campaign helped generate 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:09.439 thousands of newspaper, magazine and TV news reports. It held 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:15.160 over two hundred community events, encouraged almost three thousand new 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:19.360 reports of information to crime stoppers and almost two hundred 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:24.080 direct to the police. It was a huge effort and 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:28.400 it didn't stop. There was an events in the Federal Parliament. 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:32.200 This has to resonate with every person in this nation 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:37.000 because Australia can never become that country that just turns 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:38.040 the other cheek on this. 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:42.080 And the second anniversary of William's disappearance was marked by 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:46.440 the New South Wales Police Commissioner announcing the state's first 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:49.320 million dollar reward for information. 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:53.320 That's one million reasons why somebody that knows what's happened 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:56.560 should come forward and talk to us and do it soon. 0:14:57.640 --> 0:15:02.400 That reward was something else garage the campaigners and William's 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:06.200 foster parents fought for. Gary got up in front of 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:11.320 the TV cameras up stuff that we are announcing a 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:15.160 second strike force made up of detectives from across New 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:18.480 South Wales to help work through the long list of 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:22.960 people whose names had come up in the investigation. The 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:27.120 state Premier Mike Baird spoke about his sense of grief 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:28.840 over William's disappearance. 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:33.360 It's an incredibly difficult thing to watch as appearent every 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:39.720 appearing across the nation sits and is absolutely in the 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:42.760 sense of deep grief with that family. 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:47.120 And privately, Mike Baird would go up to Gary and 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:51.200 tell him whatever you need in this investigation, You've got it. 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:55.240 I want to pay tribute to Gary and his team. 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:59.280 We have the best police I think in the world. 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:06.640 All of which is hugely impressive. But another year passed 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:12.640 without any answers, and listening to William's foster parents, it 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:16.440 sounds like things felt very different for them. By the 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:18.520 second anniversary. 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:23.520 We created our Where's William campaign to keep William alive 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:27.680 in the public's conscious. You can't forget about this boy. 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:33.440 You cannot forget about William. He's three years old and 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:38.720 I don't think the public can say that it's okay 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:41.640 that this crime is not solved, because it's not okay, 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:45.200 and we need to hold police to account and we 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:48.080 need to push it and it needs to be solved. 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:52.720 Holding police to account is different to the simple trust 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:56.480 they described once feeling in the police force, and. 0:16:56.440 --> 0:17:02.320 I think part of what's helped us is we've had 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:05.240 Gary who has kept it going. 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:13.200 I saw it as a sort of pinnacle of my career. 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:16.320 You go through stages in your career where you're learning 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:19.240 your trade as a homicide detective, then you're feeling a 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:24.040 little bit comfortable you're up to leading an investigation, and 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:25.679 then you get to the point where I was in 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:29.000 my career as one of the most experienced homicide detectives 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:31.680 in the state, if not the country, and to lead 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:35.919 an investigation like this, I felt comfortable doing it. I 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:37.960 felt that I had the skills, I felt they had 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:41.679 the energy, I felt they had the experience, and so 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:46.000 I wasn't overawed by leading the William terial investigation. 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:50.800 When Gary talks about leading, he means leading the two 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:54.280 strike forces now working on it, as well as his 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:58.400 team in the homicide squad, who all worked on William's disappearance, 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:02.680 but none of them were working only on this job. 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:06.760 They all had other cases. In the course of half 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:09.719 a day that I spent with Gary and Kendall around 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:14.359 this time talking about William's disappearance, he took a dozen 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:18.880 phone calls about other murders. He was leading right across 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:19.880 New South Wales. 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:25.160 Like you're working around the clock, weekends leave. I didn't 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:27.119 know whether I was working or not. I was working 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:31.680 twenty four to seven. But making those sacrifices it was 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:33.720 worth it because you knew you were doing it for 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:36.560 the right reason and to help the families find justice. 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:42.040 You talk about making sacrifices, were you also prepared to 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:44.960 make enemies to do that job. 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:49.080 I don't seek to make enemies, but if someone is 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:55.199 in the way of doing a homicide investigation efficiently and effectively, 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:57.080 they put barriers in place. 0:18:57.119 --> 0:18:59.560 And you're talking about other cops now I'm. 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:03.560 Talking about the cops. I talk about lazy cops, whether 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:08.320 they're junior to me or my colleagues, or the ones 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.199 that I particularly didn't like. With a senior police that 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:14.399 put their career ahead of what we're meant to be 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:18.000 doing as homicide detectives, I think anyone that's a committed 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:21.960 police officer would be changed. That changes your view on life. 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:25.040 You know that you've got an awesome responsibility, a heavy 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:27.639 responsibility that weighs on you, that you've got to do 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:30.640 the right thing. So that's what drove me without doubt. 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:34.440 But sometimes you've just got to stand up for what's right. 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:37.920 Sometimes it's not easy. No one likes confrontation. I don't 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:40.720 like confrontation. I'm good at it if it gets the confrontation, 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:42.160 but I don't like it. 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:47.160 He once told me that when you're working a homicide investigation, 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:50.720 you'll go in like a bondozer and people will get hurt. Yep, 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:52.280 what does you mean by that? 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:57.159 The very nature of homicide investigation. If people think you 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:00.560 can tip, you te around the homicide investigation. Living in 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:04.719 La La Laine, homicide investigation is about finding out what's happened. 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:07.920 I'm not talking about breaking rules here or going too far. 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:12.000 I'm talking about you've got to go after a person. 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:14.760 You've got to hunt that person, find that person, and 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:16.760 gather the evidence. 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:21.840 Gary's drive and determination was matched by some of those 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:25.560 who worked on the strike force into William's disappearance. His 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:29.760 officer in charge, Craig Lambert, was a former kickboxing champion. 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:33.360 The two men would actually spa together in a car 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:38.159 park outside the police station. Another detective, Louise Curry, was 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:43.000 a former Olympic athlete. In twenty sixteen, a few months 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:48.320 short of the third anniversary of William's disappearance. Louise challenged Gary, 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:53.280 saying she didn't believe there was enough information to exclude 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:58.120 William's foster parents as suspects. She wanted to pull them 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:02.520 back in for interview. Gary agreed, and he sprung it 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:06.119 on the couple without warning, pretending to invite them to 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:10.800 a normal meeting, then taking them off separately under escort 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:15.680 to windowless interview rooms where Louise had planned the questions. 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:21.800 Transcripts of these recorded interviews show both detectives asked William's 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:25.800 foster parents about things that would turn up years later 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:29.120 in the theory now being pursued by the new South 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:32.399 Wales Police Force, or in leaks from the police to 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:37.000 the media, like how William wasn't wearing shoes at the 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:39.959 time of the last known photo of him, and the 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:44.000 timing of exactly when William's foster mother says she spoke 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:48.800 to a neighbor outside. At one point, Gary asks William's 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:51.800 foster father whether the three year old might have hurt 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:57.200 himself accidentally and his foster mum covered it up. Never likely, 0:21:57.359 --> 0:22:02.040 William's foster father replies, would have been a driveway tragedy 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:05.480 where William was hit and killed accidentally by one of 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:10.720 their cars. No, could William's foster grandmother have done something 0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:14.120 terrible by accident and his foster mum cover it up. 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:19.840 William's foster father says these police theories are completely laughable. 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:25.960 The detectives also challenge William's foster mother about how she 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:28.840 deleted a text from her husband saying he was on 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:32.240 his way back to the house. Gary Jubilin puts it 0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:34.920 to her that William might have fallen from the balcony 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:38.640 or a tree and she panicked and covered it up. 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:44.200 She denies this. You understand why the accusing finger gets 0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:49.520 pointed back this way, Gary asks her, because invariably it's 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:52.800 the people that had care or custody of the child. 0:22:54.119 --> 0:22:59.400 William's foster mother says no, She repeats it, no, no, never. 0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:05.040 Gary Jubilin doesn't ask her about the drive, though, where 0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:08.040 William's foster mother says she got into her mum's car 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:12.879 and went down the road towards the crossroads. William's foster 0:23:13.000 --> 0:23:16.200 mother starts to bring this up, but Gary asks her 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:19.640 about something else, and they never come back to it. 0:23:23.359 --> 0:23:27.080 After William's foster parents were interrogated. They go home, not 0:23:27.240 --> 0:23:30.400 knowing the police have fitted their car with a listening device. 0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:34.560 The couple say nothing either in the car or in 0:23:34.600 --> 0:23:38.000 their interviews with the detectives, for the Strike Force to 0:23:38.080 --> 0:23:43.439 decide that yes, they should be suspects. Instead, asked in 0:23:43.480 --> 0:23:47.080 her interview what she thinks happened to William, his foster 0:23:47.160 --> 0:23:50.440 mother talks about the two cars. She says she remembers 0:23:50.480 --> 0:23:55.159 seeing parked on the road that morning. I also wonder 0:23:55.280 --> 0:23:59.680 about Paul, she says. I'm thinking if those two cars 0:23:59.720 --> 0:24:04.800 are there, they're visiting him. I just find Paul really odd. 0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:08.760 Pod here. 0:24:10.960 --> 0:24:14.480 This is electronically recorded the interview between Detective Chief Inspector 0:24:14.600 --> 0:24:17.840 Jubilin and mister Paul Savage at Port la Quarry Police Station. 0:24:18.520 --> 0:24:22.000 Paul Savage lives opposite the house where William was last seen, 0:24:22.800 --> 0:24:26.720 and you can't miss Paul pretty much. Every time I've 0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:29.960 been on Benirun Drive, he comes out to say hello 0:24:30.200 --> 0:24:31.240 or see what's going on. 0:24:32.240 --> 0:24:35.800 The Time is twelve forty two pm on Wednesday, the 0:24:35.880 --> 0:24:37.640 sixth nighth of August two thousand and seven. 0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:37.880 Eight. 0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:42.240 Paul was seventy when William went missing, but still fit. 0:24:42.760 --> 0:24:46.720 He walked in the bush every morning. In person, he's 0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:51.600 earnest and awkward, but there's something raw about him, as 0:24:51.600 --> 0:24:53.760