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Speaker 1: Should you just tell me where we go?

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Speaker 2: We're heading into the township I suppose you call it

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Speaker 2: the Kendall where William Tyrell disappeared.

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Speaker 3: From this time, driving back to Kendall, I'm traveling with

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Speaker 3: Gary Jubilin, the detective who led the investigation.

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Speaker 1: How long has it been since you were here?

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Speaker 2: Oh, there would be a matter of three years, four years,

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Speaker 2: I'd say that since I've been up here.

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Speaker 3: Like I've said before, Gary and I go back a

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Speaker 3: long way, and my first impression of him was he's interesting.

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Speaker 2: That hasn't changed the lawn, and that brings back every

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Speaker 2: memory in the book.

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Speaker 1: What memories are.

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Speaker 2: I think an overriding one of sadness of what's happened

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Speaker 2: in this town and what's happened to William.

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Speaker 3: Gary doesn't hide his feelings. He's capable of great compassion,

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Speaker 3: but also anger.

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Speaker 2: With that sadness that there's a frustration. It probably a

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Speaker 2: better term his anger, but I'll try to be nice

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Speaker 2: and say frustration in the way that the matter's been handled.

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Speaker 1: He's driven.

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Speaker 2: It was a tough investigation, but it was an investigation that, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I was up for the challenge. I've been investigating homicide

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Speaker 2: for a long time, and I was confident that, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I would get a result on it.

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Speaker 3: There are other words people used to describe him, because

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Speaker 3: Gary has made enemies, partly because he had a way

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Speaker 3: of getting in the newspapers and on television.

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Speaker 4: You see this, Yeah, well he was kidnapped this member

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Speaker 4: and then done putting a strike force on it.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to put my hand up.

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Speaker 2: You go for God, Gary.

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Speaker 3: If all he and I met, Gary had been the

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Speaker 3: subject of a primetime TV drama about his life and

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Speaker 3: another of his investigations. That show was called Underbelly, and

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Speaker 3: this is how they described him.

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Speaker 5: Gary Kevin Jubilan was an aries, a practicing Buddhist and

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Speaker 5: drank green tea instead of coffee.

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Speaker 2: His workmates called him crazy fuck.

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Speaker 3: The green tea and the nickname. That's all true. I'd

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Speaker 3: add the shaved head, the nose he's broken three times

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Speaker 3: boxing the facts. Gary meditates to find some inner balance

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Speaker 3: and can also be so demanding.

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Speaker 1: He's told more than one.

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Speaker 3: Of his bosses to fuck off if they can't get

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Speaker 3: him more time, resources, or staff for his investigations.

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Speaker 6: I heard you request that, as Elizabe.

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Speaker 1: I know this.

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Speaker 6: Every time you put your hit up I'm going to

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Speaker 6: kick it.

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Speaker 3: But the thing that really stands out to me about

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Speaker 3: Gary is the way he pursued his cases.

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Speaker 6: It's taken us years and now I've gone you.

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Speaker 1: To destruction.

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Speaker 6: So if you really want to help yourself, then you

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Speaker 6: make a.

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Speaker 3: Statement putting pressure on a suspect.

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Speaker 6: Tell me what.

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Speaker 3: Happened, doing everything he could think.

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Speaker 1: Of to crack them.

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Speaker 3: Why he did it at the risk even of ruining

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Speaker 3: their life or his own.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're heading down towards where William, who was the

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Speaker 2: last saying alive in being around drive and that's something

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Speaker 2: that has played very heavily in my life, this particular road.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, we'll stop and look at the house. How

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Speaker 2: does a child disappear from there? And we haven't got

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Speaker 2: the answers and yo, as the New South Wales place,

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Speaker 2: we should be judged by it. These are the type

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Speaker 2: of cases that you need to solve.

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Speaker 3: I'm Dan box and from News dot com dot Au.

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Speaker 3: This is Witness William Tyrell Episode eight.

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Speaker 1: Pressure.

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Speaker 5: You know, you could feel the tension, You could feel

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Speaker 5: that the bosses were doing things that they were all

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Speaker 5: by the book. This might sound a strange thing to say,

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Speaker 5: but you could just see there was at tension to detail.

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Speaker 3: This is another of the cops who worked on the

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Speaker 3: investigation into William's disappearance in September twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 5: Normally, you know, cops, we trivialize things because it's like, oh,

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Speaker 5: we've been to a million missing kids and we found them.

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Speaker 3: But for this to happen, they don't want to be identified.

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Speaker 3: So Nina, the producer on this podcast, is reading their words.

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Speaker 5: You've got the sense of like, oh, everyone's definitely taking

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Speaker 5: it on as a serious detective investigation.

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Speaker 3: But that doesn't mean everything was working smoothly.

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Speaker 5: As soon as we got there, we had tasks, so

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Speaker 5: they're just kind of giving us stuff to do. But

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Speaker 5: you know, they weren't telling us much. I didn't really

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Speaker 5: get a sense of or any briefing of how they

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Speaker 5: were attacking it.

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Speaker 3: This was before Gary Jubilin was put in charge, when

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Speaker 3: the strike force was being led by a detective called

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Speaker 3: hands Up.

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Speaker 5: Hands Up was pretty old school. I never never had

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Speaker 5: a conversation with him. Gary was the first person that

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Speaker 5: when he came aboard, he wanted everyone to tell him

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Speaker 5: what they thought. He didn't care whether I was a

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Speaker 5: constable or I was a detective or if I was

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Speaker 5: the boss. He wanted to know. He wanted to get

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Speaker 5: everyone's ideas.

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Speaker 3: This was around the start of twenty fifteen when Hans

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Speaker 3: retired and Gary Jubilin took over the investigation.

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Speaker 5: When he came in and I met him and we

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Speaker 5: chatted that first day, I saw him as a real

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Speaker 5: fucking detective. He was the real deal. Like I knew

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Speaker 5: about the underbelly and all that bullshit. But you know,

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Speaker 5: it wasn't until he came on board that I really

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Speaker 5: actually understood, Oh, this is what we've got to do.

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Speaker 5: We've got to put this timeline together.

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Speaker 7: We've got to do this.

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Speaker 5: We've got to do that. He wants everyone's import he

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Speaker 5: wants everyone to talk. He wants you to go and

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Speaker 5: have a beer after work and discuss things and argue

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Speaker 5: over ideas and theories, because that's how shit happens. I

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Speaker 5: really enjoyed working under Gary's direction because he sort of

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Speaker 5: thinks like a business person, where it's like time, we've

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Speaker 5: got to get this shit done. We've got a deadline.

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Speaker 5: We've got to figure this out.

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Speaker 3: You know, Gary didn't want things to get slowed down

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Speaker 3: by the petty bureaucracies you often run up against in

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Speaker 3: the police force, like not wanting to pay overtime, or

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Speaker 3: which police commander would let others use which resources, even

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Speaker 3: if that meant Gary falling out with other bosses.

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Speaker 5: People ask me about it, and what I say is

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Speaker 5: he's tenacious and he'll do things that you would expect

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Speaker 5: cops in movies to do, but that's not reality, and

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Speaker 5: he's the guy that would do that. So if one

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Speaker 5: of my family members was murdered, I want Gary to investigate.

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Speaker 5: That's how I explain it.

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Speaker 3: Gary also found supporters in William Tyrell's foster parents, who

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Speaker 3: were now approaching the anniversary of his disappearance.

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Speaker 8: The anniversary brings a huge amount of mixed emotions. Again,

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Speaker 8: we don't have an outcome. We don't know whether he's

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Speaker 8: whereabouts or anything.

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Speaker 3: This is William's foster father speaking at the time to

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Speaker 3: the journalist Leah Harris.

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Speaker 8: It's quite scary to think that we don't have you

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Speaker 8: know anything. One you're on. I crossed my fingers, I

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Speaker 8: look into I look into can you mother, and just

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Speaker 8: proposed for his return.

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Speaker 3: The first time Gary met the foster parents, he looked

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Speaker 3: at them as potential suspects.

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Speaker 9: When we were meeting. I could feel that he was

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Speaker 9: just sizing me up, and you know, you could feel

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Speaker 9: the suspicion coming all over again.

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Speaker 3: This is William's foster mother. In another interview with Leah Harris.

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Speaker 9: At that point, I'd never heard of Gary jubut I know,

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Speaker 9: connection or reference to the name whatsoever. I googled him

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Speaker 9: and I thought, wow, this is good, this is really good.

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Speaker 9: He'd been on a number of he'd been on a

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Speaker 9: number of high profile yeah. But I remember somebody telling

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Speaker 9: me that he was the character on an underbelt and

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Speaker 9: I'm thinking, oh my god and thinking wow, okay. But

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Speaker 9: what it gave us, I think, was this sense of

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Speaker 9: We've got the right guy.

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Speaker 3: Eventually, Gary discounted the foster parents as likely suspects, just

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Speaker 3: like hands Rup had done before him. And William's foster parents.

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Speaker 3: They grew close to Gary.

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Speaker 9: We had the then Ministry of Police telling us that

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Speaker 9: he was new South Wales Police top cop. We had

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Speaker 9: people within the police force telling us we don't have

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Speaker 9: anybody better. We trusted, we trusted police, We trusted him.

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Speaker 3: Between them, Gary Jubilin and William's foster parents turbo charged

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Speaker 3: the investigation into the three year old's disappearance. Instead of

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Speaker 3: just being a police matter, it became a massive publicity campaign.

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Speaker 3: The Where's William campaign launched in twenty fifteen. That August,

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Speaker 3: there was this public performance of bring Him Home from

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Speaker 3: the musical lem Asarabler.

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Speaker 4: They are focus today at and supporting other Where's William campaign.

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Speaker 3: Local politicians spoke up.

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Speaker 9: I can only imagine as a father and is apparent

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Speaker 9: the grief and the anxiety that the family is going through.

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Speaker 1: There were TV news reports.

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Speaker 9: Let's continue to work together to bring William home.

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Speaker 3: There were billboards, thousands of leaflets were distributed.

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Speaker 2: Where's William wig the search for Little William Tyrell on

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Speaker 2: wearing the badge that they've released. They're putting out flyers,

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Speaker 2: They're asking for everyone to get involved, get on board.

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Speaker 3: William's foster parents were driving this behind the scenes, although

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Speaker 3: the state government barred them from speaking publicly because William

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Speaker 3: was a child in care.

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Speaker 2: William is a little boy who needs to be home.

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Speaker 3: With his family, so instead they provided a written statement.

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Speaker 10: Please please, whoever you are, if you know something about

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Speaker 10: William's disappearance, please help police find our little boy.

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Speaker 3: Tens of thousands of people took part in Walk for

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Speaker 3: William events right across Australia.

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Speaker 2: They're looking at what is called a Walk for William now.

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Speaker 11: These will be held across New South Wales as well

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Speaker 11: as in Queensland.

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Speaker 3: Other walks took place in New York, Canada, New Zealand,

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Speaker 3: Japan and Ireland.

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Speaker 11: We are expecting up to a thousand people to pack

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Speaker 11: into the Kendall Showgrounds.

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Speaker 3: The Kendall Showgrounds had been the focus of the search

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Speaker 3: effort after William first went missing.

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Speaker 2: The grand of applause to for Gary and his team.

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Speaker 2: It's obviously at distressing time for them, and I'd been

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Speaker 2: doing a fantastic job.

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Speaker 3: Everybody involved in the search was invited to say thank you.

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Speaker 3: There were flags and cake and a big book for

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Speaker 3: people to sign, and Gary spoke, we don't.

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Speaker 2: Have any self doubt in regards to this investigation. We're

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Speaker 2: going out of hammer and tongs and doing everything that

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Speaker 2: we can do.

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Speaker 3: And if you signed the book there was a chance

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Speaker 3: to win a prepaid visa card. But really it was

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Speaker 3: part of a covert operation because Gary wanted to identify

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Speaker 3: the people who turned up in case the person responsible

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Speaker 3: for William's disappearance was somewhere among the.

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Speaker 12: Crowd and we had one hundred and twelve taxi backs

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Speaker 12: between Sydney and Brisbane. We had one thousand bumper stickers

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Speaker 12: all around the area. We had one hundred thousand coasters

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Speaker 12: go out around the mid North Coast and around Sydney

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Speaker 12: in key areas.

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Speaker 4: With the whole purpose behind that is that people have

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Speaker 4: a few drinks and if they know something, they might

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Speaker 4: say something.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 13: So everything that we did was strategic.

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Speaker 3: Claire and Alice Collins are a mother and daughter team

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Speaker 3: who run a small pr company.

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Speaker 12: There are so many cases of missing children over the

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Speaker 12: years that have just disappeared into people's memory. They don't

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Speaker 12: know about those children because there was no campaign. Everyone

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Speaker 12: knows about William. I'm not saying that's because of us,

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Speaker 12: but the campaign I think pushed his face and his

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Speaker 12: message into nearly every single home across Australia.

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Speaker 3: Working for free alongside the police and foster parents, they

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Speaker 3: organized the Where's William campaign, eventually taking it to the

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Speaker 3: State Parliament. Thank you the Premier, Administer of Justice and Police,

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Speaker 3: the Honorable Troy Rats and those in law enforcement, campaigners

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Speaker 3: and politicians.

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Speaker 1: Wept openly and it.

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Speaker 13: Starts with William.

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Speaker 10: It starts with we're going to bring him home.

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Speaker 3: In its first year, the Where's William Campaign helped generate

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Speaker 3: thousands of newspaper, magazine and TV news reports. It held

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Speaker 3: over two hundred community events, encouraged almost three thousand new

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Speaker 3: reports of information to crime stoppers and almost two hundred

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Speaker 3: direct to the police. It was a huge effort and

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Speaker 3: it didn't stop. There was an events in the Federal Parliament.

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Speaker 9: This has to resonate with every person in this nation

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Speaker 9: because Australia can never become that country that just turns

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Speaker 9: the other cheek on this.

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Speaker 3: And the second anniversary of William's disappearance was marked by

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Speaker 3: the New South Wales Police Commissioner announcing the state's first

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Speaker 3: million dollar reward for information.

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Speaker 2: That's one million reasons why somebody that knows what's happened

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Speaker 2: should come forward and talk to us and do it soon.

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Speaker 3: That reward was something else garage the campaigners and William's

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Speaker 3: foster parents fought for. Gary got up in front of

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Speaker 3: the TV cameras up stuff that we are announcing a

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Speaker 3: second strike force made up of detectives from across New

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Speaker 3: South Wales to help work through the long list of

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Speaker 3: people whose names had come up in the investigation. The

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Speaker 3: state Premier Mike Baird spoke about his sense of grief

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Speaker 3: over William's disappearance.

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Speaker 11: It's an incredibly difficult thing to watch as appearent every

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Speaker 11: appearing across the nation sits and is absolutely in the

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Speaker 11: sense of deep grief with that family.

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Speaker 3: And privately, Mike Baird would go up to Gary and

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Speaker 3: tell him whatever you need in this investigation, You've got it.

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Speaker 11: I want to pay tribute to Gary and his team.

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Speaker 11: We have the best police I think in the world.

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Speaker 3: All of which is hugely impressive. But another year passed

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Speaker 3: without any answers, and listening to William's foster parents, it

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Speaker 3: sounds like things felt very different for them. By the

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Speaker 3: second anniversary.

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Speaker 9: We created our Where's William campaign to keep William alive

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Speaker 9: in the public's conscious. You can't forget about this boy.

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Speaker 9: You cannot forget about William. He's three years old and

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Speaker 9: I don't think the public can say that it's okay

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Speaker 9: that this crime is not solved, because it's not okay,

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Speaker 9: and we need to hold police to account and we

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Speaker 9: need to push it and it needs to be solved.

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Speaker 3: Holding police to account is different to the simple trust

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Speaker 3: they described once feeling in the police force, and.

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Speaker 9: I think part of what's helped us is we've had

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Speaker 9: Gary who has kept it going.

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Speaker 2: I saw it as a sort of pinnacle of my career.

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Speaker 2: You go through stages in your career where you're learning

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Speaker 2: your trade as a homicide detective, then you're feeling a

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Speaker 2: little bit comfortable you're up to leading an investigation, and

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Speaker 2: then you get to the point where I was in

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Speaker 2: my career as one of the most experienced homicide detectives

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Speaker 2: in the state, if not the country, and to lead

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Speaker 2: an investigation like this, I felt comfortable doing it. I

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Speaker 2: felt that I had the skills, I felt they had

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Speaker 2: the energy, I felt they had the experience, and so

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Speaker 2: I wasn't overawed by leading the William terial investigation.

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Speaker 3: When Gary talks about leading, he means leading the two

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Speaker 3: strike forces now working on it, as well as his

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Speaker 3: team in the homicide squad, who all worked on William's disappearance,

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Speaker 3: but none of them were working only on this job.

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Speaker 3: They all had other cases. In the course of half

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Speaker 3: a day that I spent with Gary and Kendall around

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Speaker 3: this time talking about William's disappearance, he took a dozen

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Speaker 3: phone calls about other murders. He was leading right across

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Speaker 3: New South Wales.

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Speaker 2: Like you're working around the clock, weekends leave. I didn't

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Speaker 2: know whether I was working or not. I was working

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Speaker 2: twenty four to seven. But making those sacrifices it was

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Speaker 2: worth it because you knew you were doing it for

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Speaker 2: the right reason and to help the families find justice.

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Speaker 3: You talk about making sacrifices, were you also prepared to

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Speaker 3: make enemies to do that job.

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Speaker 2: I don't seek to make enemies, but if someone is

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Speaker 2: in the way of doing a homicide investigation efficiently and effectively,

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Speaker 2: they put barriers in place.

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Speaker 3: And you're talking about other cops now I'm.

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Speaker 2: Talking about the cops. I talk about lazy cops, whether

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Speaker 2: they're junior to me or my colleagues, or the ones

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Speaker 2: that I particularly didn't like. With a senior police that

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Speaker 2: put their career ahead of what we're meant to be

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Speaker 2: doing as homicide detectives, I think anyone that's a committed

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Speaker 2: police officer would be changed. That changes your view on life.

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Speaker 2: You know that you've got an awesome responsibility, a heavy

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Speaker 2: responsibility that weighs on you, that you've got to do

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Speaker 2: the right thing. So that's what drove me without doubt.

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Speaker 2: But sometimes you've just got to stand up for what's right.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it's not easy. No one likes confrontation. I don't

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Speaker 2: like confrontation. I'm good at it if it gets the confrontation,

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Speaker 2: but I don't like it.

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Speaker 3: He once told me that when you're working a homicide investigation,

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Speaker 3: you'll go in like a bondozer and people will get hurt. Yep,

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Speaker 3: what does you mean by that?

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Speaker 2: The very nature of homicide investigation. If people think you

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Speaker 2: can tip, you te around the homicide investigation. Living in

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Speaker 2: La La Laine, homicide investigation is about finding out what's happened.

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Speaker 2: I'm not talking about breaking rules here or going too far.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about you've got to go after a person.

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Speaker 2: You've got to hunt that person, find that person, and

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Speaker 2: gather the evidence.

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Speaker 3: Gary's drive and determination was matched by some of those

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Speaker 3: who worked on the strike force into William's disappearance. His

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Speaker 3: officer in charge, Craig Lambert, was a former kickboxing champion.

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Speaker 3: The two men would actually spa together in a car

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Speaker 3: park outside the police station. Another detective, Louise Curry, was

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Speaker 3: a former Olympic athlete. In twenty sixteen, a few months

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Speaker 3: short of the third anniversary of William's disappearance. Louise challenged Gary,

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Speaker 3: saying she didn't believe there was enough information to exclude

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Speaker 3: William's foster parents as suspects. She wanted to pull them

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Speaker 3: back in for interview. Gary agreed, and he sprung it

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Speaker 3: on the couple without warning, pretending to invite them to

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Speaker 3: a normal meeting, then taking them off separately under escort

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Speaker 3: to windowless interview rooms where Louise had planned the questions.

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Speaker 3: Transcripts of these recorded interviews show both detectives asked William's

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Speaker 3: foster parents about things that would turn up years later

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Speaker 3: in the theory now being pursued by the new South

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Speaker 3: Wales Police Force, or in leaks from the police to

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Speaker 3: the media, like how William wasn't wearing shoes at the

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Speaker 3: time of the last known photo of him, and the

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Speaker 3: timing of exactly when William's foster mother says she spoke

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Speaker 3: to a neighbor outside. At one point, Gary asks William's

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Speaker 3: foster father whether the three year old might have hurt

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Speaker 3: himself accidentally and his foster mum covered it up. Never likely,

359
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Speaker 3: William's foster father replies, would have been a driveway tragedy

360
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Speaker 3: where William was hit and killed accidentally by one of

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Speaker 3: their cars. No, could William's foster grandmother have done something

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Speaker 3: terrible by accident and his foster mum cover it up.

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Speaker 3: William's foster father says these police theories are completely laughable.

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Speaker 3: The detectives also challenge William's foster mother about how she

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Speaker 3: deleted a text from her husband saying he was on

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Speaker 3: his way back to the house. Gary Jubilin puts it

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Speaker 3: to her that William might have fallen from the balcony

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00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,640
Speaker 3: or a tree and she panicked and covered it up.

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Speaker 3: She denies this. You understand why the accusing finger gets

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Speaker 3: pointed back this way, Gary asks her, because invariably it's

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Speaker 3: the people that had care or custody of the child.

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Speaker 3: William's foster mother says no, She repeats it, no, no, never.

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Speaker 3: Gary Jubilin doesn't ask her about the drive, though, where

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Speaker 3: William's foster mother says she got into her mum's car

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Speaker 3: and went down the road towards the crossroads. William's foster

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Speaker 3: mother starts to bring this up, but Gary asks her

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Speaker 3: about something else, and they never come back to it.

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00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 3: After William's foster parents were interrogated. They go home, not

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Speaker 3: knowing the police have fitted their car with a listening device.

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Speaker 3: The couple say nothing either in the car or in

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Speaker 3: their interviews with the detectives, for the Strike Force to

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Speaker 3: decide that yes, they should be suspects. Instead, asked in

383
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Speaker 3: her interview what she thinks happened to William, his foster

384
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 3: mother talks about the two cars. She says she remembers

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Speaker 3: seeing parked on the road that morning. I also wonder

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Speaker 3: about Paul, she says. I'm thinking if those two cars

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Speaker 3: are there, they're visiting him. I just find Paul really odd.

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Speaker 6: Pod here.

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Speaker 2: This is electronically recorded the interview between Detective Chief Inspector

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Speaker 2: Jubilin and mister Paul Savage at Port la Quarry Police Station.

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Speaker 3: Paul Savage lives opposite the house where William was last seen,

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Speaker 3: and you can't miss Paul pretty much. Every time I've

393
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Speaker 3: been on Benirun Drive, he comes out to say hello

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Speaker 3: or see what's going on.

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Speaker 2: The Time is twelve forty two pm on Wednesday, the

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Speaker 2: sixth nighth of August two thousand and seven.

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Speaker 1: Eight.

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Speaker 3: Paul was seventy when William went missing, but still fit.

399
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Speaker 3: He walked in the bush every morning. In person, he's

400
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 3: earnest and awkward, but there's something raw about him, as

401
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 3: if he's always on the edge of a big emotion.

402
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Speaker 2: Assisting with this interview today is Detective Sergeant Laura Bluecroft.

403
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Speaker 3: Paul had seen William before he was reported missing at

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Speaker 3: a party on Benirun Drive months earlier.

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Speaker 2: For the record, Sergeant Beekroff, would you please state your

406
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Speaker 2: name and full rank Detective Sergeant or A.

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Speaker 6: Beekroff.

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Speaker 3: After again ruling out William's foster parents, Laura Beecroft was

409
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Speaker 3: the detective who initially took the lead in investigating Paul.

410
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Speaker 2: Mister Savage. I'm going to ask you some questions about

411
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Speaker 2: the disappearance of three year old missing boy William Tyrell.

412
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 2: Do you understand that if.

413
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Speaker 3: Paul agreed to do this interview voluntarily and he didn't

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Speaker 3: have a lawyer present.

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Speaker 2: My questions and any answers you give will be recorded

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00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 2: on this machine. Do you understand that.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and his account of what happened that morning is complicated.

418
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Speaker 2: Do you understand that you're free to ly of the

419
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 2: police station today at any time you wish yeth.

420
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Speaker 3: The last known photo of William is taken at nine

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Speaker 3: p thirty seven in the morning of the twelfth of

422
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 3: September twenty fourteen. At nine point thirty nine, a phone

423
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Speaker 3: call is made from Paul's house opposite to Casino Hospital

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Speaker 3: where his brother was being treated.

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Speaker 2: Was he getting near the hospital or something? What was

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Speaker 2: and so you were going to facilitate him?

427
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Speaker 13: Yeah?

428
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Speaker 2: Getting him out?

429
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 13: Yeah.

430
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Speaker 3: That call lasts eight or nine minutes. Afterwards, Paul goes

431
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 3: outside and can hear children playing over the road.

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Speaker 2: William's playing up there. You can hear him.

433
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Speaker 4: I heard kids playing. I didn't say it was him.

434
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 4: I said I heard kids playing.

435
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 2: Squeally take it from the only kids playing in the street.

436
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 3: About twenty minutes later, so around ten past ten, some

437
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 3: other neighbors hear the sound of a car on gravel.

438
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,360
Speaker 3: There's gravel at the top of Benerom Drive between Paul's

439
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 3: house and the house where William is reported missing. Shortly after,

440
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Speaker 3: Paul's wife, Heather, leaves home.

441
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Speaker 2: See a time at ten thirty eight, ten thirty eight. Okay,

442
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 2: I'll let him.

443
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Speaker 13: Know what the time was because she would be like

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Speaker 13: for binger.

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Speaker 3: Ten thirty eight. Paul's specific about this time.

446
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 13: He repeats it hither hadn't lived or ten thirty.

447
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 3: Eight, and says the same in different interviews, but CCTV

448
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 3: shows Heather must have left earlier about ten thirty. At

449
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 3: ten forty one, there's a phone call from Paul's house

450
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 3: to a medical center in Port Macquarie, and around that time,

451
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 3: a neighbor also knocks on Paul's door.

452
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 13: She said, have you heard um? They? Do you know

453
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 13: the little boydy on the ride go on missing?

454
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,959
Speaker 3: Paul says, he walks over to the house where William

455
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 3: was last seen.

456
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 13: Oh, I come straightly out and walked down and see

457
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 13: if I can help.

458
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 3: He speaks to William's foster grandmother.

459
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 13: She said he was there. He applied, and.

460
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 3: Also speaks to the neighbors Peter and Cherill. Only Peter

461
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 3: and Cherrell will later say that they didn't see Paul

462
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:05,959
Speaker 3: Savage that morning.

463
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 2: And then you walked up into the bush.

464
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 4: That's right, okay, I said, Well, I'll go up there

465
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 4: in the bush in case.

466
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 13: It went up that way.

467
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 3: Paul says. Everyone else was looking for William down Benurrun Drive,

468
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 3: so he turned up the road alone where a dirt

469
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 3: trail leads into the forest.

470
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 2: Now, describe what you did in the bush. You indicated

471
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 2: that's the rough area that you'll walked at as okay,

472
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 2: in the general area that area that you walked that's right, okay.

473
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 2: And you also indicated that you got a little bit lost,

474
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 2: which I did. Where did you get lost?

475
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 13: Just walking down here?

476
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 4: I couldn't remember where we begyard was, So I've come

477
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 4: down here and that's why I've come around.

478
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: It, okay?

479
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 2: And what did you do after you've so, you've taken it.

480
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 2: You're trying to help. You're telling me you're trying to

481
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 2: help and look for this child. Yeah, and you've gone

482
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: off in the bush and I think you've described as

483
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 2: for thirty minutes or so. Yes, I can remember you've

484
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 2: walked up around the bush for thirty minutes.

485
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 13: Yeah.

486
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 3: After those thirty minutes, Paul says he comes home without

487
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 3: seeing anyone, but he doesn't go down the road to

488
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 3: ask if William's been found, or talk to anyone to

489
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 3: let them know which area of bush he's just searched.

490
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 2: You didn't think to go back and say, hey, he's

491
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 2: not up there, or have you found him? You've just

492
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 2: gone back in and had a cup of tea.

493
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 13: Well, everybody else to make that nice noise.

494
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 4: What's going to me garring out there and join a

495
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 4: crowd of people when they're running around like with their throatcut.

496
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 2: You weren't even curious. You go in there and have

497
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 2: a cup of two.

498
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 4: You don't have to be curious when I can hear

499
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 4: everybody else looking for a little bit, so you.

500
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 2: Know he's still lost and you're having a cup of tea.

501
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 13: Well, what else do you want me to do?

502
00:29:58,360 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 2: PEPs go out there and help.

503
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 13: Look, he had a look, and I was thirsty after

504
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 13: a walk. I press.

505
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 2: You walk for two hours a day.

506
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 3: Paul says he stays inside the house for ten minutes.

507
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 3: In a separate interview, he'll say it was fifteen minutes.

508
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 3: But neither of those times really add up looking at

509
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 3: the timings. If Paul walked in the bush for thirty minutes,

510
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 3: as he says, he must have been home alone drinking

511
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 3: tea for nearly two hours.

512
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, and at once I finished in there, and

513
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 4: the brother in law and then showed up.

514
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 3: Paul says he leaves his house just as his brother

515
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 3: and sister in law arrive for a planned visit, and

516
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 3: they say they got there about one pm. Though in

517
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 3: another interview, Paul says he left his house, walked over

518
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 3: the road, talked to William's foster grandmother and a police officer,

519
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 3: then came back and only then saw his relatives car

520
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 3: pull up.

521
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 2: Was it just pure cow incidence? Sitting there heaving a

522
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 2: cup two with all this commotion, the biggest commotion inner

523
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 2: room drive's ever seen, and you just happened to decide

524
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 2: to come out just when your brother in law and

525
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 2: sister in law turner.

526
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 13: Now, well, what else would you call?

527
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 2: I'd call it the remarkable coincidence.

528
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 13: Well, I've got nothing to be ashamed of.

529
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 2: You'd nothing to be ashamed of.

530
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 3: No, okay, okay, So I have questions. In an earlier

531
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 3: interview with the police, Paul says he's pretty sure he

532
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 3: didn't know that his relatives were coming to visit that day,

533
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 3: but in this interview with Gary Jubilin, he says maybe

534
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 3: he did know.

535
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 4: I can't remember, but I dare say because Heather's brother

536
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 4: and sister in law were due to arrive, now we're

537
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 4: coming to visit us.

538
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 3: Paul himself was also due to leave that morning at

539
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 3: eleven to drive four hours north to Casino, where his

540
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 3: brother was getting out of hospital. But it's unsure when

541
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 3: Paul called his brother that day to say he wasn't coming,

542
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 3: and why Heather didn't seem to notice anyone out in

543
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 3: the street earlier that morning when she left for Bingo,

544
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 3: given we know at least William's foster mother, grandmother, and

545
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 3: possibly one neighbor were out there around that time looking

546
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 3: for him. Heather died in the months after William went missing.

547
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 13: Since you had the passed a while, I heaven left

548
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 13: this area right.

549
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,719
Speaker 2: And look, you'll love the Heather, I know it's strong.

550
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: And yeah, you walked around with a picture around unique

551
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,719
Speaker 2: for a month or so, as I understand them.

552
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 3: In case you didn't catch that, Paul agrees that he

553
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 3: carried a picture of Heather around his neck for a

554
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 3: month after she died.

555
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: Himself.

556
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,479
Speaker 3: Spoke to police on the day William was reported missing,

557
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 3: but his house wasn't searched until three days later. A

558
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 3: year later, a detective spoke to Paul again at home,

559
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 3: and again in January twenty sixteen. Two months after that,

560
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 3: in March, Detective Sergeant Laura Beecroft spent four hours with

561
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 3: Paul taking a formal witness statement, where he described spending

562
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 3: half an hour in the bush searching for William on

563
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 3: his own, and.

564
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: How he got a bit lost.

565
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 3: Paul has said the same thing to me in person,

566
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 3: though he didn't want to be recorded, and I've got

567
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 3: questions about that. Also in Kendall, after talking to Paul,

568
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,959
Speaker 3: I walk up the hill from the house where William

569
00:33:55,000 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 3: was reported missing, trying to get lost. Paul used to

570
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 3: walk this track every day, and he said that it's

571
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 3: quite easy to get lost through the bush here. Even

572
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 3: from here, you're still just in sight of the roofs

573
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 3: of the houses. But if you were looking for a

574
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 3: child and you set off away from the track like this,

575
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 3: then suddenly it seems quite different. The bush kind of

576
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 3: swallows you up on either side. Hang on. It is

577
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 3: pretty thick and it is pretty tangled. But the space

578
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 3: between the track that I've turned off and the houses

579
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 3: on Benermon Drive itself isn't that big. So there is

580
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,240
Speaker 3: a little track here, might just be an animal track,

581
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,760
Speaker 3: and then it kind of almost disappears. But I'm gonna

582
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 3: take it and follow. The longer I spend doing this,

583
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 3: the harder I find it to understand Paul's explanation of

584
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,439
Speaker 3: his actions, because having been here, you can get these

585
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 3: glimpses of the houses through the trees, and there's a

586
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 3: couple of tracks, and everything is on a slope back

587
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 3: down to the houses of Ben Ruin Drive. And then

588
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 3: you walk through here for a while and you hit

589
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 3: this creek, which is in front of me. So it's

590
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 3: currently dry, maybe five meters wide. But I'm not a local.

591
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 3: I've been here maybe half a dozen times now, but

592
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 3: I knew that creek runs behind the houses, and so

593
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 3: Paul must have known if he walked here every day.

594
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:57,240
Speaker 3: And if I follow this creek down through the forest

595
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 3: very quickly, I do see the sun shining off the

596
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 3: roof of one of the houses behind Benirun Drive. So

597
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:16,479
Speaker 3: Paul's getting lost in an area that is contained by

598
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 3: the first track he walked off on, which is a

599
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 3: basically a fire trail, the slope of the hill, and

600
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 3: then the dry creek. I do struggle to see how

601
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 3: he got lost, But I'm not in Paul's mind, and

602
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 3: so my experience of this today is not Paul's experience.

603
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 3: And the problem is now to get out of the bush,

604
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,760
Speaker 3: I think I'm gonna have to walk through someone's guard.

605
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:04,320
Speaker 1: And in fact, and I'm walking through is Paul Savage's garden.

606
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 3: Another thing that caught the detective's attention was in March

607
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 3: twenty sixteen when Paul found a covert surveillance camera on

608
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 3: a tree in the bush surrounding his property. So obviously

609
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 3: the camera wasn't very covert. The police had put it

610
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 3: there to keep an eye on someone else, because at

611
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 3: this point they're investigating more than one of what they

612
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 3: called persons of interest. And one thing I do know

613
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 3: about Gary Jubilin is he loves a covert surveillance operation.

614
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 3: This surveillance camera kept recording as Paul picked it up,

615
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 3: looked straight into it, then took the camera inside.

616
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,959
Speaker 2: When Polson working and looking around this area, you find

617
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 2: the camera and just hang on to it. If a

618
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 2: police didn't turn up with a view, just hung on

619
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 2: to it forever.

620
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 13: No I that in Lauren Blues.

621
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 2: When would of you have taken into.

622
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 13: I'm not quite sure how long I didn't have it

623
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 13: all that long.

624
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 2: How long did he have.

625
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,399
Speaker 4: If you had the camera, mister Savage, approximately five weeks.

626
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 13: I don't know that long. I can tell you how long.

627
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 2: I'll tell you had the camera for five weeks.

628
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 13: Well, that's not a small amount of Tom.

629
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: The voice you can hear.

630
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 3: There is Detective Sergeant Laura Beecroft, who is the detective

631
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 3: looking at Paul Savage. Based on what she told him.

632
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 3: Gary Jublin decided to make Paul the focus of the

633
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,760
Speaker 3: strike Forces investigation, and Paul's home and phones are placed

634
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 3: under surveillance. The police also put a tracker on his car.

635
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 3: Two undercover cops are sent in to talk to Paul,

636
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 3: one posing as a freelance journalist, the other as a psychic,

637
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 3: both wanting to talk about William Tyrol and the listening

638
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 3: devices are recording and the po are waiting to see

639
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 3: how Paul reacts. Now, if you're thinking that sounds similar

640
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 3: to what police did with their previous person of interest,

641
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 3: Bill Spreading, using covert surveillance then dialing up the pressure

642
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 3: to see if someone will crack, then yeah, it's from

643
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 3: the same playbook.

644
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:21,359
Speaker 1: I told you.

645
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 3: Gary likes a surveillance operation, and one thing Gary himself

646
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 3: was focused on was the fact that Paul also had

647
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,760
Speaker 3: a history of approaching people when he might not be welcome,

648
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 3: including William's foster grandmother.

649
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 2: No one's ever asked you to stay away from a

650
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 2: house because you make him feel uncomfortable.

651
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 13: That's right.

652
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 2: No one's ever done it, not that I know, okay.

653
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 3: But William's foster grandmother had done that, asking Paul's wife, Heather,

654
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 3: to pass on the message.

655
00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 13: Well, if that's it, I used to go up there

656
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,399
Speaker 13: and i'd ask her, did she on a hand? That's

657
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 13: I was worried about.

658
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 2: Her, and heaven didn't relate to you. To stay away

659
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 2: because you're making her feel uncomfortable. Think about this, ye.

660
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 13: I am, I'm trying to remembers.

661
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

662
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 13: Yeah.

663
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 3: None of this is evidence that Paul had anything to

664
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:29,240
Speaker 3: do with William's disappearance. But Gary does go on raising

665
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,720
Speaker 3: the fact that there's an apprehended violence order in place

666
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 3: against Paul preventing him from approaching the local postwoman. That

667
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 3: postwoman didn't want to talk about it when I call her,

668
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 3: But court documents say that in the years before William

669
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 3: was reported missing, more than once Paul did approach her,

670
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 3: crying and shaking, saying I love you, or I want

671
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 3: to spend more time with you, or followed the postwoman

672
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 3: in his car saying I can't live like this not

673
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 3: seeing you. Eventually, Australia posts stopped delivering to Paula's house. Then,

674
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 3: after the av OH was granted, Paul approached the postwoman again,

675
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 3: saying he wanted to wish her a happy birthday. He

676
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 3: was charged and pleaded guilty to breaching an av oh,

677
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 3: but when questioned about it by Gary, Paul denies his

678
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,760
Speaker 3: behavior was threatening, calling the court case a conspiracy.

679
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 2: The idea was a lad, explain to me how you

680
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 2: stalking a woman is a setup.

681
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 13: I never thought to her at any time.

682
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 2: So it's all lies with So when you went into

683
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 2: the post office cry and shaking, that was a lie

684
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 2: and everyone that saw it said it was a lie.

685
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 13: What when did I go in crime? I went in

686
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 13: there once and I was upset and I was crying.

687
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:56,720
Speaker 2: Why were you upset and crying?

688
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 4: Because our film really depressed. So I went home and

689
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 4: I went straight back and I apologized.

690
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 2: Right and when the police issued an abo. Yeah, what

691
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 2: happened after that?

692
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 13: After the abo? Yeah, bloody nothing.

693
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 2: You didn't get charged?

694
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,359
Speaker 13: Oh yeah, because I got one day's notice to get help.

695
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:20,399
Speaker 2: One day's notice to get help. What are you talking about?

696
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 4: Well, I had to court on Tuesday. I got nothing

697
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,879
Speaker 4: on Saturday night to turn up in court. I had

698
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 4: no idea what I had to do.

699
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 2: Look, mister Savage, what I think we need to take

700
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 2: a step back. I'm not sitting here in judgment of you.

701
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 2: But what I can't sit here and is take lies.

702
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 4: Okay, okay, then now that and have been because that's

703
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 4: a pack of rubbies.

704
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 13: It's not a pack of it is the pack of rubbies.

705
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 13: Well you ask her, I have asked her. Okay, then you.

706
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,439
Speaker 4: I asked her, why did you ring me in July,

707
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 4: three months after I got the ADL on me?

708
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 13: Why did you ring me and told me? She loved me?

709
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 13: She loves you, That's what she said.

710
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 2: Let's get this clear. You're telling me that this wasn't

711
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 2: you stalking her. She was in love with you.

712
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 13: I didn't stalk that.

713
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 2: She's in love with you.

714
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 13: It's invitably.

715
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 3: You can hear it in Paul's voice. Now, the pressure building,

716
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 3: and at his home, the listening devices were in place.

717
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 3: The transcript of what's recorded on just one of those

718
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 3: devices in Paul's kitchen runs to over one hundred pages,

719
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 3: though the quality of the devices themselves wasn't great, so

720
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 3: there's gaps in the recordings where no one can make

721
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 3: out what Paul is saying, or places where the transcript

722
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 3: says file does not exist, And in other places there's

723
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,399
Speaker 3: disputes between detectives, with one saying they heard one thing

724
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 3: and another saying they heard something else.

725
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: What you can say is.

726
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 3: That almost always Paul is talking on his own, sometimes

727
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:00,720
Speaker 3: ranting at the television. Often it seems like he's talking

728
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 3: to his dead wife, Heather. He calls her angel or

729
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 3: more often Mum. He breaks down sobbing or seems bitter,

730
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 3: saying things like you set me up, don't lie, lunatic,

731
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 3: or no one will know it was you. Listening to

732
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 3: these recordings, Gary Jubilin decided to increase the.

733
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 7: Pressure, okay, recording Where we Go.

734
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 3: Was this track where the police under Gary Jubilin left

735
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 3: the Spider Man suit for Paul Savage to find, deliberately

736
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 3: left it for him to find on his morning walk.

737
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 3: A Spider Man suit was what three year old William

738
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 3: Tyrrell was wearing on the morning he was reported missing.

739
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 3: And at this point, Paul Savage under pressure. He's got

740
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,839
Speaker 3: listening devices in his house, listening device in his car,

741
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 3: his phone calls are being recorded, and the idea is

742
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:13,720
Speaker 3: just to increase that pressure but putting a Spider Man's

743
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 3: suit last identified with a disappeared three year old on

744
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 3: the path of his morning walk. I mean, I've said

745
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 3: this to Gary jud but it sounds crazy. But they

746
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 3: did it, and then they watched his reaction. The people

747
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 3: watching Paul's reaction were specialized surveillance officers brought up from

748
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 3: Sydney and waiting hidden in the scrub on either side.

749
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 3: Paul walks up, wearing in a coubra hat with a

750
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 3: water bottle hanging over his shoulder. He gets to the

751
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 3: suit and stops a few meters from where it lies,

752
00:45:52,840 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 3: and Paul looks one, two, three four. The waiting police

753
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 3: count twelve seconds, and at the same time they're filming

754
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 3: Paul and taking photographs. Unfortunately, all of the photos we've

755
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 3: seen taken by the surveillance police who are hiding in

756
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:21,720
Speaker 3: the bushes on either side, none of them show Paul

757
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 3: and the Spider Man suit in the same frame, so

758
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,280
Speaker 3: none of them conclusively show that he is definitely looking

759
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 3: at that suit. They show that he's looking in the

760
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 3: direction of where the suit is known to be, and

761
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:39,359
Speaker 3: the specialist surveillance cops who were in the bushes reported

762
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 3: that they saw him looking at the suit. But because

763
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:44,839
Speaker 3: you haven't got that one bit of photographic evidence that

764
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 3: proves it conclusively, it's always open to doubt. What's not

765
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 3: open to doubt is that Paul does not report seeing

766
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 3: the suit that morning. Instead, he goes home, where the

767
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 3: listening device cords him saying something like have to do it,

768
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 3: though on the transcript one detective has added a comment

769
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 3: that says, possibly, why did I have to do it?

770
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 3: Or why did they have to do it? It's not certain.

771
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 3: So the next day the police left the suit out

772
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 3: waiting for Paul. Again, you've got this guy under surveillance.

773
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 3: You want to know what he might know, either to

774
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 3: include him or to exclude him from your investigations, so

775
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 3: you just dial up the pressure. I mean, there's a

776
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 3: whole question about how fair that is or how much

777
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,839
Speaker 3: trauma you might be exposing this guy too. But then

778
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,879
Speaker 3: you rationalize that if you're the police, by saying, we're

779
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 3: investigating a possible child abduction, so almost anything we do

780
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 3: is okay because we're trying to put right that wrong.

781
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 3: The next day, Paul leaves for his morning walk at

782
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:02,240
Speaker 3: seven point thirty three am thirty seven. The waiting police

783
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 3: watch him stop, bend over to look at the Spider

784
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 3: Man's suit, then stand walk back the way he came.

785
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,839
Speaker 3: Paul starts to run as he enters his driveway, and

786
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,399
Speaker 3: within minutes he's on the phone reporting seeing the suit

787
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 3: to the police. And later that same morning, Paul's recorded

788
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 3: on a listening device in his house saying the suit

789
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 3: wasn't there yesterday, He couldn't have missed it and sobbing

790
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 3: the word mum.

791
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 5: It's almost like the Truman Show. I kind of think

792
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 5: it'll be quite hard to come through this and not

793
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 5: have that in the back of your mind for a

794
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:41,839
Speaker 5: long time.

795
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:46,280
Speaker 3: I don't think anyone's come through this investigation unscathed, because

796
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 3: once you've had the experience, like on your morning walk,

797
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 3: you literally had police on either side hiding watching you.

798
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 3: How you ever let that go, particularly if you're innocent.

799
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 3: But then the police's job is to establish whether or

800
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 3: not you're innocent, and so the question is how far

801
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 3: is it okay for them to go to establish your

802
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 3: innocence or your guilt. In his interview with Paul Savage,

803
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 3: Gary Jubilin goes at him hard, accusing Paul of lying

804
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,240
Speaker 3: about whether he saw that suit.

805
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:21,720
Speaker 1: The first morning.

806
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 2: This fascinates me that you can sit here and lie

807
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 2: to me like that when I know and you know,

808
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 2: you're telling a lie.

809
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 13: No, I'm not. I'm not lying.

810
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 4: I walked up there, I'm seen that suit, and I

811
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 4: went straight back home.

812
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 13: I ranged the police and.

813
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 2: I just sorry. It just fascinates me that you can

814
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 2: lie like this.

815
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 13: I'm not lying. I'm not lying. I'm not interested in lying.

816
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 13: What is a lie?

817
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 2: Well, then if you don't think you're lying, then you're

818
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 2: totally delusional. And everything you're telling me comes in. They

819
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:58,840
Speaker 2: get me nis air and just let.

820
00:49:58,760 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 1: Up the rock dead.

821
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:01,760
Speaker 2: Well you considered that the first.

822
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 13: I went right down and reported it.

823
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 2: No you didn't, Yes, I did. No, you're lie.

824
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 13: I'm not lying.

825
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 3: Back at Paul's home, the listening devices are recording as

826
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:19,359
Speaker 3: he repeatedly denies seeing the Spider Man suit. On the

827
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 3: first of the two days police left it on the

828
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 3: bush track. Paul says other things to himself. Also one day,

829
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 3: Paul says, no, no, he tells me what he's going

830
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 3: to do. No, he tells me that he's going to

831
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 3: whether I want it or not.

832
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:37,319
Speaker 4: No.

833
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:40,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I'm going to run into your property too.

834
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 3: This is my place. You're in my place. You do

835
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:48,720
Speaker 3: what I want. You're a little boy. You're nobody. You're

836
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 3: just a little boy. You're nobody. You don't tell me,

837
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 3: I'll tell you. I did tell you another time. He

838
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 3: says murderers are sick and charge abuses a rotten bit

839
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 3: of rubbish. Paul accuses Gary Jubilin of setting him up

840
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 3: and insists on his innocence over anything to do with

841
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 3: William Tyrol. He says police are going to try and

842
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:16,280
Speaker 3: square it up on me. I haven't got a witness.

843
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 3: It's all lies, He says, he now won't help police.

844
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:23,280
Speaker 3: I was going to tell them about the two boys,

845
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 3: but bugger it, He says, I couldn't hurt a kid,

846
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 3: and later, I haven't deliberately hurt anything or anybody in

847
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:36,840
Speaker 3: a long, long time. Paul says he can't sleep because

848
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 3: of the police investigation, meaning the pressure is getting to him.

849
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 3: He talks about his dead wife, Heather, saying he's sorry,

850
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 3: saying quote, he's a boy and great, they're going to

851
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 3: find something. Mum, don't dob on me, okay, And oh mum,

852
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 3: what do I do?

853
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:57,239
Speaker 1: What do I do?

854
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 3: Later the same day, Paul says, what is it God?

855
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 3: And forgive me?

856
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 1: Please? What did I do? Mar? What did I do?

857
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,360
Speaker 3: And a couple of days later, on the tenth of

858
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:16,760
Speaker 3: September twenty seventeen, Paul moans and possibly talks in his sleep, saying,

859
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 3: it is what it is, and you've done it again.

860
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 3: You've done it again. You're going overboard, you know. On

861
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 3: the eleventh of September twenty seventeen, that's one day before

862
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:33,520
Speaker 3: the third anniversary of William's disappearance, Paul says, it's in

863
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,799
Speaker 3: the paper, that's the last time I seen him. And

864
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 3: because it's true, it's true if I don't remember, because

865
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 3: it's true. Other people stirring things up. And he says,

866
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,920
Speaker 3: get it right, mate, They had no proof, nothing, because

867
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 3: there can't be nothing ever happened. And he says his

868
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 3: memories are gone. He says, I can't remember anything. If

869
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 3: you tell me what you were doing on eleven thirty five,

870
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,799
Speaker 3: on the twelfth of fucking September in twenty fourteen, can

871
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:09,919
Speaker 3: you remember? And he says to himself, but I think

872
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:14,320
Speaker 3: he's imagining talking to Gary. I've not lied to you once.

873
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 3: I might have forgotten things. I might have twisted them up.

874
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 3: But I've not lied. I don't lie to you. I

875
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 3: make mistakes, and that I think is all that you

876
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:30,280
Speaker 3: can take from the thousands of hours of listening device

877
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 3: recordings that Paul can be mistaken, meaning even Paul Savage

878
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:41,840
Speaker 3: sometimes doesn't know whether his own thoughts are accurate.

879
00:53:55,640 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 2: So I get then, Look, I'm actually look stop, I'm

880
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 2: not interested in your making up your lives.

881
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:04,319
Speaker 13: I'm not making up live all right.

882
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:06,400
Speaker 2: We'll move on to the next next thing. Okay, but

883
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:10,360
Speaker 2: that saam, We'll just have to change some tapes. So

884
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 2: the time now is two thirty three pm. The interview

885
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:21,799
Speaker 2: between Detective Chief Inspector Jubilin and mister Paul Savage is suspended.

886
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 3: During this break in his interview with the detectives, Paul

887
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:32,640
Speaker 3: leaves the room to use the toilet. Unrecorded, the two detectives,

888
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:36,720
Speaker 3: Laura Beecroft and Gary Jubilin talk about whether they think

889
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 3: Paul really did see the Spider Man suit that they

890
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 3: left on the bush track on the first day or

891
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 3: only on the second as Paul claims. Laura thinks Paul's

892
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 3: telling the truth, but Gary Jubilin still has questions.

893
00:54:54,520 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 14: The interview resumes electronic we recorded interview between Detective Chief

894
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 14: Inspector Gary Jubilant and mister Paul Savage.

895
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 2: Recommenced the time is two forty two pm. Yes, all right,

896
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 2: Well we'll continue on with the.

897
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 3: Interview outside the interview room. Disagreement between the detectives is

898
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 3: starting to divide the police strike Force. Not all of

899
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 3: them are as driven as Gary Juberlin or Craig Lambert,

900
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 3: the two leaders. Some are less motivated or unhappy to

901
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 3: be there, or have other human failings. One member of

902
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,400
Speaker 3: the strike force will later leave the cops after an

903
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 3: internal investigation found he had sex in his police car

904
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:50,400
Speaker 3: while on duty, took photos of his genitalia in the office,

905
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 3: and pretended to be at work when he wasn't. And

906
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 3: others among the strike force are also hard to manage.

907
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 3: Some start to disagree with Gary's focus on Paul Savage,

908
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 3: and Gary's answer is always to keep working.

909
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:12,040
Speaker 2: If you're sitting there and you honestly believe you're telling

910
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:14,319
Speaker 2: me the truth about the spider Man suit, I know

911
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 2: you're lying and that.

912
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:19,359
Speaker 4: You don't I'm telling you the truth. I never say

913
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 4: that the I before. Why would I leave it to

914
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 4: die and then go? They han't ring up.

915
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 2: Why would I do that because you're involved in the

916
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 2: abduction of William tyrrel.

917
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:31,799
Speaker 13: I am why would I bile the line This is

918
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 13: bybly ridiculous. I'm not a liar.

919
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 3: At the same time he is running this investigation, Gary's

920
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 3: also going through a divorce his second and his strike

921
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 3: force is starting to founder under the sheer weight of

922
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:51,759
Speaker 3: their workload. By the end of twenty seventeen, they have

923
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 3: over fourteen thousand separate products meaning reports or photographs or

924
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 3: documents to work through about William. They have listening device

925
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 3: recordings still to go through. Some of those on the strikeforce,

926
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 3: like Craig Lambert, have thousands of tasks allocated to them.

927
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:16,680
Speaker 3: Craig later describes their workload saying, quote, from start to

928
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 3: finish of my shift, I'm literally churning through these products

929
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 3: as quickly as possible. It was a race against myself

930
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 3: to get them done onto the next bang bang bang bang.

931
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:33,920
Speaker 3: Police records show Gary's repeatedly asking for more staff, but

932
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 3: his staff numbers are cut instead by his bosses, and

933
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 3: stuff gets missed and information keeps on coming in, not

934
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 3: least because the Where's William campaign keeps encouraging people to

935
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:54,440
Speaker 3: come forward, meaning despite everything the police are doing to

936
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 3: exclude them, the number of people on their persons of

937
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 3: interest list increasing. There is a difficulty in targeting any

938
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 3: person of interest as we have literally no evidence, Gary

939
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 3: writes in one report to his bosses. He warns the

940
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 3: investigation could go on for years.

941
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 2: I'll strip it down. I won't even call you mister Savage.

942
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 2: I'll call you Paul.

943
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:22,080
Speaker 13: Yeah. Well, less of this one, okay.

944
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 2: Because this is we're getting down to the nitty gritty.

945
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:26,439
Speaker 13: Yep, which is good.

946
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:33,640
Speaker 3: Gary Strikeforce start turning on each other, criticizing him between themselves,

947
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:38,520
Speaker 3: and particularly Gary's focus on Paul Savage. Some of the

948
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 3: junior detectives even drive up to Kendall, walk out along

949
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:46,640
Speaker 3: the bush track and try to prove Paul couldn't have

950
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 3: seen the Spider Man suit that first morning when he

951
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 3: did not report it. Only they can't prove it, and

952
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 3: their mini investigation is kind of fascicle. They don't even

953
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 3: take a tape measure to make sure they know where

954
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 3: Paul was standing. But it does prove that Gary's grip

955
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:09,280
Speaker 3: on his team is slipping and he can no longer

956
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:14,240
Speaker 3: trust them to back each other and his leadership. Gary

957
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:19,680
Speaker 3: keeps on working, pushing himself and the team around him harder.

958
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:26,040
Speaker 3: He makes some bad decisions. Three times, in twenty seventeen

959
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 3: and twenty eighteen, Gary visits Paul at home alone. Their

960
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:35,680
Speaker 3: conversations are recorded on the listening devices and also on

961
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:41,080
Speaker 3: Gary's mobile. Gary also records a phone conversation with Paul,

962
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 3: asking again about the Spider Man's suit.

963
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:49,560
Speaker 2: Hello, Paul, Gary, jubilant here from the place.

964
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:53,920
Speaker 3: At the same time, Gary's preparing to hold an inquest

965
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 3: into William's disappearance. The sole reason Gary wants to have

966
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 3: this inquest is to pray Paul, to ask him everything

967
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 3: how he got lost in the bush. The listening device

968
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:09,880
Speaker 3: recordings the Spider Man suit, whether he did or didn't

969
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 3: see it, But preparing for the inquest means even more

970
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:18,440
Speaker 3: work for the strikeforce, which is now disintegrating, to the

971
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 3: point that Gary and his officer in charge, Craig Lambert,

972
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:26,360
Speaker 3: physically square off against each other in the offices of

973
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:31,880
Speaker 3: the Homicide Squad and have to be separated. Craig, who

974
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 3: thinks the continued pursuit of Paul Savage is wrongheaded and

975
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 3: a waste of time, has his gun taken from him

976
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 3: and is escorted from the building. Gary goes back to work.

977
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 3: The inquest is due to start in months in March

978
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 3: twenty nineteen. There are other persons of interest other than

979
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:56,320
Speaker 3: Paul that Gary asks his team to look at on

980
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 3: top of this. On the nineteenth of January, weeks out

981
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:03,600
Speaker 3: the inquest, Gary is sent to Northern New South Wales,

982
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 3: a seven hour drive from Sydney, to investigate the shooting

983
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 3: of two police officers. The next day, the twentieth of January,

984
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:17,480
Speaker 3: he's sent to Newcastle to lead another murder investigation. Two

985
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:21,360
Speaker 3: days later, on the twenty second, Gary is told that

986
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:28,360
Speaker 3: he's under internal investigation and taken off all active homicide cases,

987
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 3: meaning he never works on the disappearance of William Tyrol again.

988
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 3: In March twenty nineteen, Paul gave evidence at the inquest

989
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 3: looking at what happened to William. He said his memory

990
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:50,400
Speaker 3: was now a bit cloudy and gave some of his

991
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 3: evidence in private behind closed doors. So we don't know

992
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:58,960
Speaker 3: if Paul was asked about what he said on those

993
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:02,960
Speaker 3: listening device recus recordings, or whether he did see the

994
01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:07,040
Speaker 3: Spider Man suit on that first day or only on

995
01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:09,520
Speaker 3: the second, like he told the police.

996
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:11,960
Speaker 13: I did not see the suit, and I before or

997
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:14,840
Speaker 13: I want to record them help I can.

998
01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 3: And speaking of listening device recordings, after Paul Savage leaves

999
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 3: this interview with the detectives, he's recorded on a listening

1000
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:28,760
Speaker 3: device in his car, saying, make sure you don't tell

1001
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:33,480
Speaker 3: anyone love. They're right after me. Don't tell anyone love, please,

1002
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:37,680
Speaker 3: they're right after me. Sorry. And we don't know if

1003
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:46,120
Speaker 3: he was ever asked about that as well. Years later,

1004
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,440
Speaker 3: when I go up to Kendall for this podcast, I

1005
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:54,120
Speaker 3: park on Benirum Drive and Paul walks up. We get talking.

1006
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 3: Paul tells me he did see the suit. He doesn't

1007
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 3: want to be recalled, but I make shorthand notes as

1008
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:06,040
Speaker 3: he's talking. Paul says, on the first day, he saw

1009
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:09,840
Speaker 3: only the top and thought, I don't know about that,

1010
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 3: and maybe it was some other kids who left it.

1011
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 3: He says, the next day he saw the whole suit.

1012
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:21,000
Speaker 3: He says he did think of William Tyrell when he

1013
01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:24,480
Speaker 3: saw half the suit, but because it was only the top,

1014
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 3: he thought it wasn't important. On the second day, when

1015
01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:32,040
Speaker 3: he saw the whole suit, Paul says, I thought it

1016
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:36,920
Speaker 3: was probably his williams He says, I felt hopeful. I

1017
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:41,000
Speaker 3: hoped we could solve the case. I ask him why

1018
01:03:41,040 --> 01:03:44,280
Speaker 3: he didn't tell the police this at the time, and

1019
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:49,480
Speaker 3: Paul doesn't really explain it. He says, I've left it

1020
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:52,240
Speaker 3: a bit longer than I should have, but it will

1021
01:03:52,280 --> 01:04:01,520
Speaker 3: come out eventually, only it hasn't until now. At the inquest,

1022
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:05,959
Speaker 3: one of the detectives, Laura Beecroft, said she didn't think

1023
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:10,080
Speaker 3: Paul was still what she called an active person of interest,

1024
01:04:11,120 --> 01:04:14,360
Speaker 3: but at that point Laura herself was no longer on

1025
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:18,720
Speaker 3: the strikeforce so couldn't be certain. But one of the

1026
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 3: detectives who's still working on the investigation gave evidence about Paul.

1027
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:27,040
Speaker 3: In a separate court hearing that detective Mark Jukes, said

1028
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:30,240
Speaker 3: there was no exculpatory evidence that I was aware of

1029
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 3: that could completely eliminate Paul Savage from the investigation. In court,

1030
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:39,160
Speaker 3: Mark said his view was that Paul should not be

1031
01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:43,240
Speaker 3: written out of the case. That was in February twenty nineteen,

1032
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 3: just after Gary Jubilin was taken off it. But I

1033
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:51,400
Speaker 3: think that's what happened. The police are no longer looking

1034
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:56,120
Speaker 3: at Paul Savage, and Paul is eighteen now and even

1035
01:04:56,200 --> 01:05:01,440
Speaker 3: he admits his memories can be mistaken. There are still

1036
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:06,920
Speaker 3: unanswered questions. Nina, the producer on this podcast, spoke to

1037
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:10,600
Speaker 3: Paul on the phone last week and he said no

1038
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:13,480
Speaker 3: one from the police had been to talk to him

1039
01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:18,960
Speaker 3: since Gary was taken off the investigation. And that decision

1040
01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:25,960
Speaker 3: to take Gary off the investigation that changed everything, and

1041
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 3: we'll get into that in detail next week on Witness.

1042
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:32,200
Speaker 1: William tyrrel.

1043
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:39,600
Speaker 2: This electronic interview between Detective Inspector Jubilee and Paul Savage

1044
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:43,640
Speaker 2: is now concluded. Before I turned the tapes off, ask

1045
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:47,040
Speaker 2: you a couple of questions. Oh, has any threat, promise

1046
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:49,360
Speaker 2: or inducement been held out to you to give the

1047
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:53,400
Speaker 2: answers you were given in this interview? Have you provided

1048
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:56,480
Speaker 2: those answers of your own free will listen? Is there

1049
01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:59,080
Speaker 2: anything further you wish to say in relation to this manner?

1050
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:03,320
Speaker 13: I didn't know. I'm gonna work inside. I can't hips obviously,

1051
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:06,200
Speaker 13: all right, thank you.

1052
01:06:11,200 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 3: A lot of different people have been involved in making

1053
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:17,640
Speaker 3: this series. Among them, the executive producer is Nina Young.

1054
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:21,560
Speaker 3: The sound design was by Tiffany Dimack. The producers have

1055
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:26,360
Speaker 3: been Emily Pigeon, Nicholas Adams, jazz Bar, Phoebe Zakowski, Wallace

1056
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:30,960
Speaker 3: and Tabby Wilson. Research by Adan Patrick, original music by

1057
01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:35,400
Speaker 3: Rory O'Connor. Our lawyer is Stephen Coombs. The editor at

1058
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:37,840
Speaker 3: news dot com dot Au is Kerry Warren.

1059
01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:39,440
Speaker 1: I'm Dan Box