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Speaker 1: They captured Monson Quentin and it was considered one of

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Speaker 1: the greatest Australian actions of the First World War. And

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Speaker 1: in fact, today at Monson Quentin there's a wonderful memorial

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Speaker 1: of an Australian soldier. I'm standing on top of the

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Speaker 1: hill and that's the memorial to the Second Division of

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Speaker 1: which Cecil Healey was a part.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jen Kelly from the Herald Sun and this is

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Speaker 2: in Black and White, a podcast about some of Australia's

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Speaker 2: forgotten characters. Welcome back to part two of the story

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Speaker 2: of Cecil Healey, the swimmer responsible for one of the

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Speaker 2: greatest acts of sportsmanship in Olympic history. Make sure you're

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Speaker 2: listening to part one. First, we're speaking again with military

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Speaker 2: historian Matt McLaughlin, founder of Matt McLachlin Battlefield Tours and

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Speaker 2: host of the Living History podcast. And what else did

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Speaker 2: Cecil get up to after his incredible act at the

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Speaker 2: nineteen twelve Olympics.

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Speaker 1: Well, he was well respected back in Australia, as I said,

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Speaker 1: and he worked in a number of professional careers, continued

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Speaker 1: to speak and to write articles for newspapers. But of

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Speaker 1: course the clouds of war were closing in Cecil felt

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Speaker 1: it was his obligation, particularly after the Gallipoli landings and

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Speaker 1: everything was happening at Gallipoli. I'm interested in Cecil. It's

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Speaker 1: funny because he enlisted in nineteen fifteen in the war,

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Speaker 1: but he was held back. He was sent overseas, but

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Speaker 1: then he was held back in Egypt and France in

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Speaker 1: a number of training units. And so he certainly was

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Speaker 1: a very good trainer of men. He was very well respected,

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Speaker 1: a bit of a leader of men. But I think

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Speaker 1: it's interesting that he wasn't sent to the front line

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Speaker 1: straight away. And this is pure speculation, but I wonder

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Speaker 1: if it was because he was well known. I wonder if,

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of like when Elvis went off to

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Speaker 1: the war, went off to the Korean War. I wonder

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Speaker 1: if because he was a well known personality and a

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Speaker 1: champion sportsman and Olympic gold medalist. I wonder if that

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Speaker 1: was part of the reason that he was held back

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Speaker 1: originally and put in charge of training units rather than

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Speaker 1: being sent to the front line. Because he enlisted in

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifteen and arrived overseas in early nineteen sixteen, but

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Speaker 1: it wasn't until nineteen eighteen that he was actually commissioned

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Speaker 1: as an officer and appointed to an infantry battalion. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's pure speculation, but I wonder if because he was

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Speaker 1: relatively well known, that was the reason that he was

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Speaker 1: sort of held back in training units.

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Speaker 2: So he really was a celebrity sportsman, and he would

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Speaker 2: have had a huge respect from his men because he

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Speaker 2: was a champion sportsman, but specifically because of what he'd

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Speaker 2: done at the Olympics. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, it had been widely reported in the papers. He'd

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Speaker 1: been faded as a bit of a hero when he

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Speaker 1: came back. You know, he spoke at his former school,

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Speaker 1: he spoke in public events. He was a bit of

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Speaker 1: a star for what he'd achieved in the Olympics and

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Speaker 1: also for that great active sportsmanship. So yeah, he would

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Speaker 1: have been well known to the men that he served alongside.

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Speaker 2: And now should we move forward to the events of

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighteen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so again, as I imagine, you know, he always

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Speaker 1: would be Cecil didn't want to stay in training units.

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Speaker 1: He wanted to lead from the front, and after lobbying

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Speaker 1: for several years, eventually he was successful in that request

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Speaker 1: and in nineteen eighteen was commissioned as a lieutenant and

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Speaker 1: sent to be part of the nineteenth Battalion in France,

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Speaker 1: and the nineteenth coincidentally is known as the Sportsman's Battalion,

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Speaker 1: so I'm sure that was no coincidence. And the reason

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Speaker 1: for that name, the Sportsman's Battalion is that early in

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Speaker 1: the war there was a system that was originally launched

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Speaker 1: in the UK that Australia copied, and the idea was

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Speaker 1: they would be called pals battalions p als so powells

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Speaker 1: as in friends, and the idea was that in order

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Speaker 1: to raise battalions quickly, they felt in the UK that

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Speaker 1: the best way to do that was to make them geographic.

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Speaker 1: So you would go to the cities and the towns

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Speaker 1: of the north of England, you'd go to various parts

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Speaker 1: of London and you'd encourage people to sign up together.

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Speaker 1: Was an interesting idea and it worked incredibly effectively, and

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Speaker 1: so the local the local aldermen of the town would

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Speaker 1: get out and say, come on, boys, we need a

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Speaker 1: thousand men to form our own battalion. And if we

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Speaker 1: get a thousand men, it means everyone who knows each

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Speaker 1: other and our friends and work colleagues can fight together.

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Speaker 1: So in the big cities, you'd get a whole range

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Speaker 1: of battalions being formed. So you might get the Commercial

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Speaker 1: Battalion for all the men that worked in the commercial sector.

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Speaker 1: You'd get the Tradesmen's Battalion, you'd get the railway Battalion.

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Speaker 1: So this was the idea in the UK and it

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Speaker 1: worked very effectively at raising a new army, particularly nineteen fourteen.

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Speaker 1: But the issue with it, of course is that fast

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Speaker 1: forward to Gallipoli, fast forward to the Battle of the

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Speaker 1: Somme in nineteen sixteen, and these units paid a very

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Speaker 1: high price. So when you've got a thousand men from

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Speaker 1: one community all fighting together and then they suffer fifty

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Speaker 1: or sixty percent casualties, that community is losing a huge

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Speaker 1: chunk of its young male population. So that was the

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Speaker 1: issue with the Pals battalions. So it's quite a fascinating

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Speaker 1: story from the First World War about the fate of

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Speaker 1: these battalions. The same thing was happening in Australia, is

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Speaker 1: the important point, although over a much larger geographic area

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Speaker 1: because Australians were much more spread out than they were

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Speaker 1: in the UK. But the same thing happened. So for example,

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Speaker 1: where I come from the town of West Wilong in

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Speaker 1: Regional New South Wales. That was the twentieth Battalion that

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Speaker 1: was formed in that area, so all the men from

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Speaker 1: the district joined the twentieth Battalion together, and the nineteenth

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Speaker 1: Battalion was formed as a sportsman's battalion in Sydney, the

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Speaker 1: idea being that again golfers and cricketers and rugby players

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Speaker 1: and boxes and swimmers would all join together and serve

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Speaker 1: alongside like minded men. So even though by nineteen eighteen

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Speaker 1: this concept had really evaporated, the idea that everyone was

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Speaker 1: from your hometown and everyone was a sportsman or a

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Speaker 1: commercial worker or worked on the railways, the essence of

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Speaker 1: that still permeated through the battalions. So I don't think

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Speaker 1: it's a coincidence that when Cecil was sent to the

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Speaker 1: front in nineteen eighteen, he joined the nineteenth which was

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Speaker 1: the Sportsman's Battalion.

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Speaker 2: So would there have been other high profile sportsmen in

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Speaker 2: this battalion.

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Speaker 1: There were some notable VFL players, for example Australian rules

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Speaker 1: football players. A number of cricketers served. I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: if they specifically in the Sportsmen's Battalion, but the records

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Speaker 1: are rife with former sports people, including people that represented

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Speaker 1: Australia internationally, going off and serving and they were often

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Speaker 1: seen as pillars of the community and good leaders and men.

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Speaker 1: So surprisingly often they were officers who were leading men.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, there's a number of fascinating stories about rugby players,

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Speaker 1: about cricketers, about VFL players, a whole range of Australian

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Speaker 1: sportsmen who'd go off and fight in the war just

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Speaker 1: like Cecil, and I think like Cecil, they would have

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Speaker 1: been very well known and very respected in the forces.

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Speaker 2: So what happened to Cecil.

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Speaker 1: Well, Cecil's first action took place in nineteen eighteen, in

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Speaker 1: August nineteen eighteen, and this is a really interesting time

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Speaker 1: for Australia's First World War story, and it's a fairly

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Speaker 1: overlooked chapter of our story. Is that from the early

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Speaker 1: days of August nineteen eighteen was really when Australia and

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Speaker 1: Canada spearheaded the British attacks that would effectively end the

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Speaker 1: First World War one hundred days later. And so this

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Speaker 1: was right at that time. So in late August nineteen eighteen,

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Speaker 1: and there'd already been some very big battle, some very

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Speaker 1: big Australian successes at places like famous Battle of Hamel

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Speaker 1: and also on the eighth of August the Battle of Armyons,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of these were being being coordinated and

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Speaker 1: being planned by Sir John Monash, the Australian commander, who

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Speaker 1: our Victorian listeners would know very very well. This is

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Speaker 1: an interesting one. We're talking about the Battle of Monson Quentin,

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Speaker 1: which came late in August nineteen eighteen. And I think

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Speaker 1: it's interesting that I think what Monash was doing here

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Speaker 1: was driving his troops very very hard because he wanted

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Speaker 1: an Australian victory. The other victories that he'd had earlier

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Speaker 1: in earlier in the months before had been in conjunction

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Speaker 1: with British troops, with American troops, and I think Monash

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Speaker 1: is really keen to get an Australian victory. So there

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Speaker 1: were two looming German defensive features, the hill known as

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Speaker 1: Monson Quentin and the town of Peron, which sat side

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Speaker 1: by side on the som battlefield. And in August and

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Speaker 1: September nineteen eighteen, the Australians launched a huge attack to

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Speaker 1: capture these places, very successful attacks. They cleared out the

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Speaker 1: town of Peron, they captured Monson Quentin, and it was

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Speaker 1: considered one of the greatest Australian actions of the First

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Speaker 1: World War, and in fact today at Monson Quentin there's

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Speaker 1: a wonderful memorial of an Australian soldier standing on top

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Speaker 1: of the hill and that's the memorial to the Second

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Speaker 1: Division of which Cecil Healy was a part. The battle

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Speaker 1: actually started a couple of days later, but the Australians

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Speaker 1: had to move into position and during this movement they

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Speaker 1: were spotted by German artillery, and artillery was fired at

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Speaker 1: them and Cecil was sadly killed in that barrag So

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Speaker 1: even before the attack on Monson Quentin, which took place

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Speaker 1: the next day, Cecil had been killed in only his

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Speaker 1: first action. So such a tragic a tragic story, a

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Speaker 1: far too common story. It's heartbreaking to think that after

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Speaker 1: all this time, after everything he'd achieved, he finally was

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Speaker 1: leading his men into action, and even the day before

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Speaker 1: the big battle he was sadly killed along with a

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Speaker 1: number of other men from the nineteenth Battalion. So that

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Speaker 1: was the Cecil's very brief war, was his first action.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure he would have done very well in that

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Speaker 1: really important attack on Monson Quentin, but sadly he didn't

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Speaker 1: get the chance. He was killed on the twenty ninth

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Speaker 1: of August and he is buried in a very small

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Speaker 1: cemetery alongside a lot of other Australians in a town

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Speaker 1: called Asavier. It's very near Piran, the big town that

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Speaker 1: the Australians would eventually capture, and he still lies there today.

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Speaker 2: And he was obviously very brave Matt. He was leading

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Speaker 2: his platoon, I'm told, and he was shot in the

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Speaker 2: neck in the chair, so you know, right out there

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Speaker 2: at the front.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, So the movement was to they had to

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Speaker 1: cross the som River, they had to get set up

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Speaker 1: for the big attack that was going to take place

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Speaker 1: the next day, and so yeah, leading from the front,

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Speaker 1: the Australians got caught in fire and he and a

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Speaker 1: number of other men were killed. So yeah, a really

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Speaker 1: great loss, and that the men in his battalion felt

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Speaker 1: it very strong I've seen lots of accounts from men

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Speaker 1: saying just that they felt that very strongly the loss

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Speaker 1: of such a great man, and that he would have

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Speaker 1: gone on to much greater things. And who knows, once again,

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Speaker 1: like all these things, who knows what he would have achieved,

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Speaker 1: both in the army during the war, but also after

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Speaker 1: the war, because that's the great imponderable of the First

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Speaker 1: World War. We lost so many of these great men,

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Speaker 1: and what would they have achieved and what would Astralia

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Speaker 1: look like if if they'd survived.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back soon to hear what Cecil did next.

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Speaker 2: So stay with us. And how old was he?

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Speaker 1: He was thirty six, so not a young man, unusually

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Speaker 1: old for that period of time. We tend to play up,

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Speaker 1: as you and I have talked about before, Jen, we

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Speaker 1: tend to play up this idea that every man was

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Speaker 1: sixteen and lied about his age. We tend to overplay

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Speaker 1: that a little bit. I think the average age was

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Speaker 1: about twenty three of soldiers fighting for the Australians in

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Speaker 1: the First World War, still pretty young, but not team ages.

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Speaker 1: But Cecil was remarkably old, a thirty six year old.

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Speaker 1: The cutoff age was thirty eight to even be able

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Speaker 1: to enlist, so he was right at that top end.

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Speaker 1: So again, I think he would have been seen by

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Speaker 1: his men as a father figure. There would have been

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Speaker 1: plenty of eighteen and nineteen year olds in his company.

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Speaker 1: There would have been a lot of men in their

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Speaker 1: early twenties, and so when you've got this sporting hero

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Speaker 1: who's also considerably older than you, he certainly would have

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Speaker 1: been well looked, well looked up to by the men

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Speaker 1: in that battalion.

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Speaker 2: And he would be the only Australian Olympic gold medalist

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Speaker 2: ever to be killed in action while serving his country.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's absolutely right. The only Olympic gold medalist to

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Speaker 1: be killed in any war, which is really quite extraordinary.

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Speaker 1: And so perhaps we should talk a little bit about

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Speaker 1: the legacy of Cecil Heay, because his legacy extends obviously

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Speaker 1: after his death. Actually, i'd refer to Cecil I think

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Speaker 1: as one of Australia's best known unknowns, because most people

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have heard the name Cecil Heey if you just

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Speaker 1: asked them on the street, or even if you're talking

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Speaker 1: about the Olympics or the First World War, most people

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Speaker 1: would not have heard of Cecil Heey. But if you

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Speaker 1: start digging a little bit below the surface, he pops

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Speaker 1: up in a number of really important places. So he's

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Speaker 1: remembered in a whole number of places where he achieved

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Speaker 1: so much so with his school at son Aloisius, there's

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Speaker 1: a competition every year that's still held and the swimming

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Speaker 1: champion gets the Heeley Award. He's remembered at North Stayin

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Speaker 1: Surf Club, So if you ever go to Manly Beach,

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Speaker 1: go up and have a look at North Stain Surf Club.

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Speaker 1: There's a plarque on the wall commemorating the fact that

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Speaker 1: that was where Cecil Heeley was from and where he

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Speaker 1: did all his great work. He's now part of the

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Speaker 1: Swimming Hall of Fame in the US in Florida, so

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Speaker 1: he was admitted there in the eighties. There's a surf

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Speaker 1: Life Saving shield that's named after Cecil Heeley, so surf

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Speaker 1: life savers compete for the Heeley Shield. But I think

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Speaker 1: one of the most interesting aspects jen of his story

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Speaker 1: is how the people in France remember him, because in

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Speaker 1: some ways he's been forgotten in Australia, but he's still

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Speaker 1: remembered in little corners of France. And so he's buried

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Speaker 1: in this small cemetery at as a Vier and in

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Speaker 1: that little village, which is really a time any little

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Speaker 1: speck on the map and would be very overlooked if

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Speaker 1: it wasn't for the connection with Cecil. But on the

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Speaker 1: centenary of his death they unveiled a statue to him

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Speaker 1: in the town. So this now not only does he

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Speaker 1: have a grave on the outskirts of the town, but

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Speaker 1: now there's a statue to him in the village of

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Speaker 1: a Savier, which I think is absolutely extraordinary. I wonder

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Speaker 1: what the local people think of this statue of an

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Speaker 1: Australian soldier. And interestingly, this year during the Olympics, because

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Speaker 1: it was in France, a contingent from the Australian Olympic

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Speaker 1: team went to as Avier and paid their respects at

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Speaker 1: his grave and also at that statue in the town

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Speaker 1: of our Savier, but also just down the road in Pern,

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Speaker 1: the much bigger town which was famous for being captured

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Speaker 1: by the Australians. The local swimming pool is called the

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Speaker 1: Cecil Heeley Memorial Pool. And again I wonder when French

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Speaker 1: kids are getting their swimming lessons or their parents are

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Speaker 1: playing water polo or whatever they're doing there, I wonder

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Speaker 1: if many of them understand that their local pool is

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Speaker 1: named after this obscure Australia who died there more than

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Speaker 1: a century before. But I think that's really wonderful. And

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Speaker 1: again we've talked about this before, Jen that the people

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Speaker 1: of France in general don't know a lot about Australian

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Speaker 1: involvement in the First World War, but in specific locations

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Speaker 1: like here, like a Peron assav where Cecil is remembered,

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Speaker 1: at famous places like Villas Bretno or fromel or Posier,

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Speaker 1: the French people do remember. And I think this is

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Speaker 1: a really wonderful example of that. And it's an initiative

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Speaker 1: from local people who don't want to forget, who think

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Speaker 1: that the story of Cecil is important enough to be

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Speaker 1: remembered in their local villagers. So I think that's a

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Speaker 1: really wonderful aspect of remembrance. But probably the thing that

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Speaker 1: touched me most when I was doing all this research

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Speaker 1: and when I've read about Cecil in the past, the

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Speaker 1: thing that touched me most was that the Olympics, the

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Speaker 1: Australian Olympic team today, after the Olympic Games, there's a

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Speaker 1: discretionary award if it's felt that one Olympian performed a

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Speaker 1: particularly outstanding feed of sportsmanship, and that's called the Healy Award,

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Speaker 1: and that's issued that's given to it Austrainian Olympian after

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Speaker 1: Olympic Games for outstanding the sportsmanship during the games. So

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Speaker 1: it's not always awarded, it's only if there's a strong reason.

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Speaker 1: But that legacy of his heroic and wonderful act in

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Speaker 1: nineteen twelve is still lives on today in the Australian

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Speaker 1: Olympic team. So I think that's, you know, that's the

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Speaker 1: most moving part of the legacy for me, that young

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Speaker 1: athletes today are still honoring him and still being honored

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Speaker 1: by his name for acts of sportsmanship. So I think

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Speaker 1: it's a really lovely book end to his story. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what a.

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Speaker 2: Great story and so well researched. Thank you for sharing

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Speaker 2: that with us today. Now does the story of Cecil

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Speaker 2: Healy come up on any of the tours with Matt

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Speaker 2: McLaughlin battlefield tours?

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Speaker 1: We tell it on every tour because we don't often

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Speaker 1: visit his grave because it's in a quite an obscure location.

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Speaker 1: But as it happens, the motorway that leads from Paris

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Speaker 1: to the heart of the battlefields goes straight past the cemetery.

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Speaker 1: So every time we are on a toour, not just

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Speaker 1: me but all of our great team of historians always

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Speaker 1: point out the cemetery and tell the story of Cecil

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Speaker 1: he And I think that's a really wonderful thing that

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Speaker 1: he's living on so long after his death, because he

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Speaker 1: deserves to be remembered. As I said, he's probably one

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Speaker 1: of our most unknown knowns or known unknowns. He's you know,

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Speaker 1: he's a guy that should be better known than he is.

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Speaker 1: And so we do our part when we take people

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Speaker 1: over there to walk the ground. It's a really important

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Speaker 1: part of the store.

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Speaker 2: So are there any particular tours that are coming up

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Speaker 2: in the next few months or how far ahead to

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Speaker 2: people tend to book for the tours?

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, people book, well, they can book either a

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Speaker 1: long time in advance or a short time in advance.

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Speaker 1: The most popular tour we have as a weekly departure

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Speaker 1: from Paris, which is a four day tour of Australian sights.

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Speaker 1: So that's in full swing at the moment. But we

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Speaker 1: have longer tours as well, but the majority of the

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Speaker 1: people that a visit the battlefields are doing it as

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Speaker 1: part of a longer trip to Europe. And yeah, so

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Speaker 1: we have weekly departures that are heading up from Paris

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Speaker 1: to visit these historic sites. It's a really wonderful connection

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Speaker 1: with history and with people like Cecil Heey. It's a

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Speaker 1: really wonderful thing to do.

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Speaker 2: The one I hear most about is the four day

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Speaker 2: Western Front Explorer. Is that the worst popular one?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the one that departs every week from Paris

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Speaker 1: heads up is all the battlefields in the Somme and

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Speaker 1: the Eep Salient and that all these other famous places.

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Speaker 1: It's a really remarkable thing to do, to walk in

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Speaker 1: the footsteps of people like Cecil and his handsac comrades,

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Speaker 1: It's a really wonderful thing to do.

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Speaker 2: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for sharing another incredible

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Speaker 2: story with us, and I look forward to chatting again soon. Matt,

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Speaker 2: me too, Jen, Thanks very much, thanks for listening. This

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Speaker 2: has Been in Black and White, a podcast about some

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Speaker 2: of Australia's forgotten characters, written and hosted by me Jen Kelly,

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Speaker 2: edited by Harry Hughes and produced by John Tyburson. You

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Speaker 2: can find all the stories and photos associated with our

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Speaker 2: episodes at Heroldsun dot com dot au slash ibaw. If

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Speaker 2: you've enjoyed this podcast, we'd love you to leave a

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Speaker 2: five star rating on Apple Podcasts. Even better, leave a review.

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Speaker 2: It's one simple way you can help us get the

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Speaker 2: word out to more listeners. Any comments, or questions, please

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Speaker 2: email me at in black and white at Heraldsun dot

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Speaker 2: com dot au. Any clarifications or updates will appear in

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Speaker 2: the show notes for each episode, and to get notified

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