1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:02,040 Speaker 1: Gay. 2 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 2: Welcome to the show. This is Better Than Yesterday. Useful 3 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 2: tools and useful conversations to help make you all day 4 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 2: today better than yesterday, every episode since twenty thirteen. 5 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: My name's Oosha Ginzberg. Hello, I'm very glad you're here. 6 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 2: I'm going to wager that you might already make choices 7 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 2: based on your values, Choices about where you shop, what 8 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 2: car you drive, whether you drive a car at all, 9 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 2: what radio station you listen to. Those choices get harder 10 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 2: the further away from us that they are, because it's 11 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: difficult to consider the deeper question, what is our obligation 12 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 2: to people who we might never meet and to the 13 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 2: planet that we share together. My guest today has spent 14 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 2: more than fifty years pondering those very questions, and many 15 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 2: many more. Peter Singer is one of the world's most 16 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 2: influential moral philosophers. His ideas have helped spark the modern 17 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 2: animal rights movement, challenge the way we think about global 18 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 2: and helped millions of people to reconsider the ethics of 19 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 2: their everyday lives. Peter is emeritus Professor of Bioethics at 20 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 2: Princeton University, former chair of the Philosophy Department, at Monash University, 21 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 2: founder of the not for profit The Life You Can Save, 22 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 2: which is an organization that does the thorough background research 23 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 2: it needs to do to give people like you and 24 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 2: me confidence to donate to thoroughly vetted, high impact organizations 25 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 2: who fight extreme poverty across the world. In this conversation, 26 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 2: we will discuss how you can have the most impact 27 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 2: positive impact on the lives of others from simply working 28 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 2: on our ability to understand their reasoning two indeed making. 29 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: Meaningful donations to effective charities. 30 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 2: Peter's been on the show before an episode I thoroughly 31 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 2: recommend if you want to scroll back after this one. 32 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 2: For now enjoy this deep dive with the legendary Peter Singer. 33 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 3: Pete. It's good to see you again, man. How are you? 34 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 4: Yes, pretty good? Thank you. 35 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 3: So your Australian accent comes to as it sounds like 36 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 3: far away. 37 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 4: No, it's not fair away. I'm just in Melbourne. 38 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 3: You're back in Melbourne. We're speaking right now at a 39 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 3: very interesting time in Australia. There's been a horrific terrorist 40 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 3: attack in Bondo Beach. The President of Israel was invited 41 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 3: out here and let's just say everybody in the street 42 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 3: has been cool and listening to each other. They're trying 43 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 3: to find a way forward together, trying to understand the 44 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 3: nuance Sport's going on in imaginary land. Yes, it's terrible 45 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 3: from a ethics point of view, From a philosophy point 46 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 3: of view, what are we seeing playing out on the 47 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 3: streets in Australia right now. 48 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:43,839 Speaker 5: Well, we're seeing obviously, opposition to what Israeli is doing 49 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 5: in Gaza. 50 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 4: It's entirely understandable. 51 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:52,799 Speaker 5: We're also seeing i think a resurgence in anti Semitism, 52 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 5: which no note is writing off. The opposition to what 53 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 5: Israel is doing in Gaza, and of course we've had this, 54 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 5: as you say, the atrocious terrorist attack, but I think 55 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 5: we are seeing also a response from the vast majority 56 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 5: of Australians of revulsion at that and at antisemitism that 57 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 5: seems to be There are certainly more anti Semitic incidents occurring, 58 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 5: and so you know, these are conflicting currents. But you know, 59 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 5: my personal opinion is that you can be perfectly critical 60 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 5: of what Israel is doing in Gaza with that indicating 61 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 5: antisemitism at all. 62 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 3: There's a lot of a lot of emotion. Obviously, it's 63 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 3: a very emotional situation and trying to have empathy at 64 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 3: the same time as a part of our body is 65 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 3: being outraged at what is quite clearly terrible, terrible choices 66 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 3: being made. It's really difficult we as humans do. We 67 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 3: find it hard. Like sometimes we don't know when we're full, 68 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,119 Speaker 3: and so we eat so many reason we gain weight 69 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 3: is being able to hold emotion, strong emotion and revulsion 70 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 3: and empathy something that we're just not capable of doing sometimes. 71 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 5: Well, it's difficult, and you know you're saying we that 72 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 5: is a very wide range of people. Some of them 73 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 5: I think can do it quite well and others not 74 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 5: at all. And it just depend what the numbers are, 75 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 5: you know, how many people can reconcile that revulsion and 76 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,919 Speaker 5: the strong emotions and go forward in a way that 77 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 5: I hope is generally civil and reasonable and does not 78 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 5: involve racism of any kind. 79 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 3: It thinks it is something I think that aims to 80 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 3: approach a problem with a neutral stance. But how can 81 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 3: we navigate a moral question in a public conversation when 82 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 3: points of view, as you mentioned, of what is reality 83 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 3: can be based on entirely conflicting ideas that may not 84 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 3: even operate in the same day universe. 85 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 5: Well, they operate in the same universe. We only have 86 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 5: there's one universe to operate in. But yes, there are 87 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 5: different ideas of reality, and there are also different ideas 88 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 5: of what justifies what really. 89 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 4: I think that's in a way of the debate. 90 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 3: What happens when we try to have the conversations we're 91 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 3: talking about a very highly charged conversation. We're going to 92 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 3: happen with anything. It happen with veganism, happened with climate, 93 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 3: it can happen with you know, juvenile the tension when 94 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 3: we're motivated we have when we use motivated reasoning, and 95 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 3: that we want our worldview is centered around this outcome 96 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 3: of alut crime for adult time, for example, and we 97 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 3: say they are shown, those people are shown. Here are 98 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 3: all the stats, all the research that shows what happens 99 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 3: when you put a child in prison at ten, and 100 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 3: that evidence is just pushed to one side because no, 101 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 3: I said, alot crime for adult time. What's going on 102 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 3: in our heads when that sort of thing happens. 103 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,280 Speaker 5: Well, as you described it as motivated reasoning, and it's 104 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 5: true that a lot of people have positions and they 105 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 5: want to reason in ways that enable them to retain 106 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 5: those positions and to defend them. That's, you know, we 107 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 5: just know that happens as a psychological fact. It's obviously 108 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 5: would be much more desirable if people were more open 109 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 5: to looking at the arguments that people who have a 110 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 5: different view put forward and considering those arguments on their merits, 111 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 5: and then maybe you would come closer to seeing what's 112 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 5: going on. 113 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 3: For example, the imaginary personal is just discussing the adult 114 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 3: crime for adult time a person or the climate person. 115 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 3: I used to work with the guy. It's one of 116 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 3: the smartest guys ever that as often you know people 117 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 3: who work in television, are they right into physics, right 118 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 3: into mask They love the angles and stuff, and yet 119 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 3: for some reason couldn't accept the science around climate. And 120 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:02,239 Speaker 3: it became apparent that oh, you're not the yourself against 121 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 3: that you've created the identity that you now associate with 122 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 3: that I don't believe in that stuff, and any any 123 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 3: evidence that comes toward you you see as an attack 124 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 3: upon yourself. What are some size that we might be 125 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 3: falling into that trap, that we're protecting our identity rather 126 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 3: than actually listening or absorbing new information. 127 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 5: Not looking at the arguments that go against your viewpoint, 128 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 5: your present identity, dismissing them just because of where they 129 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 5: come from without looking at them on their merits. 130 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 4: That's I mean. 131 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 5: I think it's the basic issue that we talk about 132 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 5: with science about trying to look at the evidence as 133 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 5: objectively as you can and acknowledging that we're fallible creatures. 134 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 5: That that's hard for us to do, but people do 135 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,679 Speaker 5: sometimes shift their views on these questions, and that's really 136 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 5: what's needed. 137 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 3: It's difficult sometimes to have have a conversation that I 138 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 3: work with this guy for a long time, and it 139 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 3: got to the point where not a lot of people 140 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 3: would be talking to him at lunch. And that's really 141 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 3: hard though, because it creates it's almost self fulfilling loop. 142 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 5: So did you try to talk to him and see 143 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 5: what arguments he had to think that his opinion was 144 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 5: better than that of the vast majority of scientists who 145 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 5: study climate. 146 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 3: Yes, and it became ad HOMINYM and what aboutism? Almost immediately? 147 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 5: Okay, Yeah, well yeah, when you get to that stage 148 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 5: where you're not really looking at the evidence, but you're 149 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 5: making ad hominem arguments against your opponent and pointing to 150 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 5: other situations that are bad. Then it gets difficult, and 151 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 5: I think maybe you know at some point you need 152 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 5: to say, look, you're not really looking at the arguments. 153 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 5: You're not looking at the evidence. If you want me 154 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 5: to have a conversation with you about this really important issue, 155 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 5: you have to do that. Otherwise we can't talk about 156 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 5: this topic. 157 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 4: Now. 158 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 5: Whether you can still be friends in some sense when 159 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 5: disagreeing about that would depend on what the name sure 160 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 5: of the relationship is. 161 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 3: You've said that being willing to revise your views. I 162 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 3: mean this person clearly wasn't going to change that one. 163 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 3: You've said that being willing to revise your views is 164 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 3: a moral responsibility if you're open to it. Would you 165 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 3: be open to sharing something that you have changed your 166 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 3: mind about? 167 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 4: Oh? 168 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 5: Obviously, over my lifetime, I've changed my mind about very 169 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:31,079 Speaker 5: important things. When I was a graduate student at Oxford, 170 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 5: when I went to Oxford in nineteen sixty nine, I 171 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 5: was twenty three, I never thought that anything to do 172 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 5: with animals posed a serious moral problem. I thought that 173 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 5: the real moral issues were about other things that were 174 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 5: going on. Then the war in Vietnam, which certainly is 175 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 5: a serious moral issue, and of course there's civil rights movement. 176 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 5: Racial equality, those were the questions, and equality also political 177 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 5: and economic quality, social equality, those were the questions that 178 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 5: mostly concerned me. And then I just had, you know, 179 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 5: had a chance encounter with somebody who was a vegetarian. 180 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 5: This was in nineteen seventy. I don't think i'd ever met, 181 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 5: certainly not a Western vegetarian. This person was a Canadian. 182 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 5: I'd maybe met some Indian vegetarians, but that was about it. 183 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 5: Who started telling me about how the animals that I'd 184 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 5: been eating all my life were actually living. They were 185 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,599 Speaker 5: not outside in the fields having a pleasant life until 186 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 5: the last day when they get track to slaughter, but 187 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 5: they were crammed into dark, huge dark sheds, very crowded, 188 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:50,839 Speaker 5: completely unsuited to their nature, and essentially leading miserable lives 189 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 5: all the time. And that got me thinking, well, what 190 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 5: would justify doing this to animals? 191 00:10:58,360 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 4: And I thought about that for a while. 192 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 5: I suppose, you know, if we actually would die if 193 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 5: we stopped eating animals, that might justify it. Although even then, 194 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 5: of course we could at least read them a lot 195 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 5: better than we did, I thought, And in the end 196 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 5: I thought, no, there isn't anything that justifies this. It's 197 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 5: something that I saw this term on a leaflet. I 198 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 5: didn't invent it, but a man called Richard Ryder, who 199 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 5: I then got to know, had a leaflet with the 200 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 5: heading speciesism. It was about experiments on chimpanzees. Showed a 201 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 5: photo of a very sad looking chimpanzee who'd been deliberately 202 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 5: infected with syphilis. And I thought, yes, this is something 203 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 5: similar to racism at the level of species rather than 204 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 5: the level of race, or sexism at the level of sex. 205 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 4: And it's a prejudice. 206 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 5: And I've got this prejudice, and I need to think again, 207 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 5: that's something wrong about with this. We can't disregard the 208 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 5: sufferings of animals when we don't need to inflict that 209 00:11:58,200 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 5: suffering on them. 210 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,559 Speaker 3: Knowing that we're inflicting suffering on an animal as one thing, 211 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 3: but also knowing that we're inflicting suffering on another human 212 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 3: is another. And I'm sure, I mean, even the most 213 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 3: vehemently cranky person wouldn't want to deliberately hurt another so 214 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 3: they could make a phone call. And yet you know 215 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 3: this phone that's in my hand, this smartphone here, is 216 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 3: dripping in blood. There's minerals in that that have come 217 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 3: from countries that I know aren't really great with the 218 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 3: way they treat their workers and things like this. We 219 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 3: can't let perfect be the enemy of good. How do 220 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 3: you reconcile with where just you living in a modern 221 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 3: industrialized economy like now right now you're in Australia, how 222 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 3: do you reckon with you know, the impact that just 223 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 3: us having this conversation even is having to other humans. 224 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 5: Well, I hope this conversation is having a positive impact 225 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 5: on other humans. Otherwise I actually would not have accepted 226 00:12:58,200 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 5: the invitation. 227 00:12:58,800 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 4: To have it. 228 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 5: I mean improved, yes, but you know, yes, there are 229 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 5: concerns about some of the goods we use the minerals 230 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 5: in your phone, for example, and we can try to 231 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 5: do something about that. 232 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 4: It's very difficult to do something about that. 233 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,319 Speaker 5: And I actually think that in a way, there are 234 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 5: you know, you ought to be looking at the scale 235 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 5: of the impact you can have and how tractable. The 236 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:29,839 Speaker 5: problem is, how what is the chances that you can 237 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 5: make a difference, And that's a very difficult one. And 238 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 5: the scale is not enormous, right There may be hundreds 239 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 5: or thousands, possibly tens of thousands of people you know, 240 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 5: who are in these conflict, mineral areas and having very 241 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 5: difficult lives. But while we're talking, there are something like 242 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 5: seven hundred million people living in extreme poverty. And when 243 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 5: you pick up your phone, actually, I thought you're going 244 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 5: to say, well, how do I justify trading up my phone? 245 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 5: And I could be donating the money to effective organizations 246 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 5: that would help some of these seven hundred million people 247 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:11,199 Speaker 5: in extreme poverty, and you know you can certainly do that, 248 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 5: And I think that's something that again, we don't think 249 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 5: about enough. We don't think about the fact that we 250 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 5: are spending money on all sorts of things that we 251 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 5: don't really need, and that money, if donated to independently evaluated, 252 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 5: highly effective charities, could be doing a lot of good. 253 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 3: You write about this a lot in the book The 254 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 3: Life You Can Save. It's a profound argument towards effective charity, 255 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 3: which is something like many things that we know are 256 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 3: good for us, and so we didn't forget them. We 257 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 3: codify them into culture, like humming, singing, dancing in concert 258 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 3: with each other, making sure we're around people at least 259 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 3: once a week to eat food together. We put these 260 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 3: into culture or religion to make sure we would remember 261 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 3: to do them. And they would be useful for our 262 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 3: community to help us prosper. Similarly, altruism and charity is 263 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 3: a part of many many cultures seekhism. It's in Christianity, 264 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 3: the one that I was brought up in. I'm not 265 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 3: there anymore, but tithing was a part of that Islam. 266 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 3: These things were put in there for a reason. What 267 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 3: is it that happens inside? It's like, yes, I can 268 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 3: save a child's life, and that should be enough for me. 269 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 3: But what happens insideus when we are charitable, when we 270 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 3: give to somebody, I. 271 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 5: Think something positive happens to most people, you know, you 272 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 5: feel that you've done something good. Sometimes just described as 273 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 5: the warm glow effect, and that's great, But I do 274 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 5: think we need to be careful and not just you know, 275 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 5: go for whatever causes the warm glow, because I know 276 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 5: there have been people who give to a large number 277 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 5: of charities and they give a small sum. You know, 278 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 5: Let's say they give twenty five dollars to twenty different charities, 279 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 5: and each one gives them a warm glow because they 280 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 5: think about what they're twenty five five dollars is doing. 281 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 5: But maybe if they gave that what is it five 282 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 5: hundred dollars total to one charity that was particularly effective 283 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 5: and had been independently assessed as being particularly effective, that 284 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 5: would actually do more good and they wouldn't get so 285 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 5: much mail from the twenty five charities or whatever I 286 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 5: said it was that they're donating to, and you know 287 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 5: that the charity would have a significant sum because of course, 288 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 5: obviously there's a cost in acknowledging receipts and trying to 289 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 5: continue to cultivate donors. So I think we need to 290 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 5: think about that, and we should be selective in the organizations, 291 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 5: and we shouldn't just think about you know, well, I 292 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 5: saw this picture of a child this organization is helping, 293 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 5: and that child appealed to me. You know, yes, great, 294 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 5: it's good to help children in impoverished circumstances, but you 295 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 5: need to know a bit more about what the charity 296 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 5: is doing. And that's why you mentioned the book The 297 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 5: Life You Can Save. But the organization that grew out 298 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 5: of that is there to evaluate these charities and to 299 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 5: help you find the ones that will get the most 300 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 5: good out of your donation, however much you can afford 301 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 5: to give. 302 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 3: You argue that helping people in extreme poverty isn't it's 303 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 3: not an optional charity, that it's a moral obligation. If 304 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 3: the people are listening, they're breathless, just trying to keep 305 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 3: the lights on and a fridge fall, what would you 306 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:37,360 Speaker 3: say to. 307 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:39,640 Speaker 5: Them, Well, if they're really I mean, if they're really 308 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 5: struggling to feed themselves in their family, I'm not saying 309 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 5: anything to them, go ahead and do that. I'm saying 310 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 5: things to people who think nothing about going to a 311 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 5: cafe for a cup of coffee and spending whatever it 312 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 5: might be, five to seven. 313 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 3: Nine bucks down the road from me. 314 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 4: How much nine nine? Right? 315 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 5: Okay, Yeah, when you know you can make your coffee 316 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 5: at home, you can buy coffee in the soup magget 317 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,360 Speaker 5: and you can make the coffee, and you. 318 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 4: Can give perfectly good coffee. 319 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 5: So I think there's a lot of probably more of 320 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 5: your listeners, I would guess, who are paying five, seven 321 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 5: or nine dollars for a couple of coffee at a 322 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 5: cafe than struggling to get enough food to feed their family. 323 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 5: So it's those ones who have a little bit to 324 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 5: spare that I'm addressing. 325 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: Just a break, we'll be back with Peter in just 326 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: a moment. 327 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 2: We're going to discuss how effective guilty is as a motivator, 328 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 2: why I'm vegan but I don't identify as vegan, and 329 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 2: the best way to introduce ethical thinking to our kids. 330 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: May I ask this podcast if it brings you value. 331 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 2: Please understand podcasts are free to listen to, whe they're 332 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 2: not free to make, and so we make money here 333 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 2: by playing you ads. 334 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: Which I'm grateful you listen to. 335 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 2: And also the best way you can help us is 336 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 2: if you share this with a friend. Please, however you 337 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 2: do it, like share, subscribe, rate, follow, whatever it is 338 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 2: you do. Also click the little burger in the corner 339 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 2: your app or a little arrow or the paper plane. 340 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: Or whatever it is, and share this with someone. 341 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 2: If there's somebody in your life you think the benefit 342 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 2: from this episode, please send it over to them. In 343 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 2: the show notes you will find the YouTube links for 344 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 2: full video episodes of this as well as full stories 345 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 2: from story Club, which is a live storytelling show I 346 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 2: do every couple of weeks right here in Sydney. I 347 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 2: think next gig is on the twelfth of April. Tickets 348 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,360 Speaker 2: are on sale right now. That's also in the show 349 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:25,239 Speaker 2: noteses where you can find the newsletter to stay up 350 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 2: to date with everything. 351 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 1: Back with Peter Singer in a moment. 352 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 3: We'll talk about effective, effective charities and the foundation that 353 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 3: you found. It does a lot there, but it's not 354 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 3: just that that's the kind of like on the ground 355 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 3: delivery of whatever needs that to happen. What's like we 356 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 3: talked about that personal moral obligation? Can we dig into 357 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 3: that a little bit more? We have a you know, 358 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 3: we have a moral obligation to raise our kids and 359 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 3: not palm them and to let, as you mentioned, the 360 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 3: children be chore. Why is it a moral obligation that 361 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,360 Speaker 3: we should help a child in extreme poverty who's possibly 362 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 3: not even anywhere in our country. 363 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 5: Well, I don't think it's morally relevant whether the child 364 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 5: is in our country or not. I think what matters 365 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 5: is can we be confident that our donation is going 366 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 5: to help that child? And how big a difference is 367 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 5: our donation going to make? Now, if we're talking about 368 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 5: raising children in Australia, we're talking about tens of thousands 369 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 5: of dollars a year to do that, right, and if 370 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 5: most Australians whatever they're earning, whether it's forty sixty eighty, 371 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 5: one hundred, one hundred and twenty thousand dollars a year. 372 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 5: That's that's the kind of scale that you're talking about. 373 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 5: And so to make a difference to the well being 374 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 5: of a child, when you're a family that is earning 375 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 5: any of those amounts I just mentioned, you need a 376 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 5: substantial amount of money, Whereas if you have somebody who's 377 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 5: in extreme poverty, the World Bank's line for extreme poverty 378 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 5: is roughly three dollars maybe in Australian dollars, maybe I'd 379 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 5: say four. 380 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 4: Dollars a day. 381 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 5: And if somebody is on four dollars a day or whatever, 382 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 5: you know, that's under fifteen hundred dollars a year. You 383 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 5: can make a huge difference to their lives for a 384 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 5: very modest amount of money, amount of money certainly less 385 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 5: than many of us would spend going on a holiday. 386 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 5: And so I think that's more relevant than whether the 387 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 5: child is within the borders of our country or not, 388 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 5: as long as you can have confidence that there's an 389 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 5: organization that will actually help that child and help it effectively. 390 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 5: And you know, that's what the life you can save 391 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 5: is providing. It's providing that confidence, and you can look 392 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 5: at the evidence. We're very transparent with the calculations that 393 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 5: we do. It's all on the website. So I think 394 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 5: that's that's what's important, and that's why we shouldn't just 395 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 5: be thinking about Australians or fellow Americans or wherever we are. 396 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 5: We should be thinking about how can we do the 397 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 5: most good. 398 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 3: There's one thing we often see around election time. We've 399 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 3: seen it in America, but foreign aid often comes under 400 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 3: attack during election time, and that's I guess, at nation's 401 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 3: moral obligation to help others who aren't doing as well 402 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 3: as they are. In Australia, we have free healthcare, we 403 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 3: have no guards on the streets. It's paradise here, it's incredible, 404 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,439 Speaker 3: But yet foreign a seems to come out of attack 405 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 3: at election time. What's the way that we can think 406 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 3: about foreign aid that I guess might help people reframe 407 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 3: the value of such a thing. 408 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 5: Yeah, we need to have confidence that our foreign aid 409 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 5: is being spent well. I think that's part of the issue. 410 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 5: And you know, when Trump came into power, he wanted 411 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 5: to review the foreign aid programs that the US had, 412 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 5: but he did this. 413 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 4: In a very brutal way. 414 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 5: He just froze all the money for ninety days while 415 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 5: they started assessing that. Firstly, you couldn't assess all those 416 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 5: programs properly in ninety days, and secondly that meant that people, 417 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 5: for example, who are being supported with antiret revirals people 418 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 5: who are HIV positive, suddenly that got cut off, and 419 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 5: undoubtedly some of them died during that period. So what 420 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 5: we need to be doing is to have independent reviews 421 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 5: of the foreign aid programs we have and be transparent 422 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 5: acknowledge it. Occasionally there are stuff ups, and in any 423 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 5: inman activity, there are occasionally stuff ups happens with anything 424 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 5: that either governments or individuals might do. I think austraight 425 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 5: as foreign aid program is deplorably small in proportion to 426 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 5: our wealth. 427 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:36,360 Speaker 4: You know, we're. 428 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:39,479 Speaker 5: Not quite sure where we are now, but I think 429 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 5: it's something like twenty two cents in every one hundred 430 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 5: dollars that the nation earns, so zero point two two 431 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 5: percent of our gross national income. And that's less than 432 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 5: a third of what the best nations do, some of 433 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 5: the Scandinavian nations, for example, So we're really lagging behind. 434 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 5: But some of the programs I think we're probably quite good. 435 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 5: But again we need to have that evaluation and to 436 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 5: sort through them and to know which ones are. And 437 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 5: then I think if we do that, and if the 438 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 5: public is convinced, you know, it gets the messages the 439 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 5: really important good things that our foreign aid is doing. 440 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 5: They won't just, you know, automatically say, oh foreign aid, 441 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,719 Speaker 5: that's our taxes. They're being wasted, and I'm not going 442 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 5: to vote for you if you want to increase foreign aid. 443 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 3: Sometimes you mentioned the letters in your mailbox from the 444 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 3: twenty separate charities, and the guilt hits you. I understand 445 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 3: that guilt can be a motivator, but guilt much like fear, Yes, 446 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 3: it can motivates you, but not for too long. What's 447 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 3: a way that we can think about donating to effective 448 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 3: charity and giving some of ourny to an effective charity 449 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 3: that doesn't come from that kind of guilty place. 450 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 5: Well, I agree entirely. I think that guilt is not 451 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 5: the best way to motivate people. What we can do 452 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 5: is to emphasize the positive, the sense that the good 453 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 5: sense that you get. We talked a little bit earlier 454 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 5: about warm glows, but there's something that's much more lasting 455 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 5: and important than a warm glow, and that's the sense 456 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 5: that I am living my life to some purpose. And 457 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 5: the purpose is not simply me, maybe not even simply 458 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:24,360 Speaker 5: me and my reasonably comfortably off dependence. But I'm part 459 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 5: of a tradition that is trying to make the world 460 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 5: a better place. I'm part of a tradition that is 461 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 5: trying to help people wherever they are, particularly those who 462 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 5: are at the margins in terms of poverty or in 463 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 5: other ways oppressed. 464 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 4: And in need. 465 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 5: And I'm using my good fortune in being a citizen 466 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 5: of an affluent country with as you said, sort of 467 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 5: free health care and not to mention things like safe 468 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 5: drinking water and free skills for our children and all 469 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:00,719 Speaker 5: of these things. And I'm not just back with that, 470 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 5: but I'm using it to give some assistance to others 471 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 5: in great need. 472 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 3: The idea of using guilt as a motivator or a 473 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 3: moral position as a justification for perhaps not great behavior 474 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 3: as unfortunately I mean, I'll admit this to you. I 475 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 3: think we spoke about it last time, but I don't 476 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 3: think I said it so explicitly. I'm vegan, and I 477 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 3: have been for for twenty four maybe more nearly most. 478 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 3: I'm fifty two, some half my life, but I don't 479 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 3: identify as vegan generally, And I don't do stuff for 480 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 3: vegan charities because it can't sound the way they color 481 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 3: pout picks, because I don't think it's very effective to 482 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 3: shame people or guilt people into changing their behavior, don't. 483 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 3: I don't agree with And I think certainly on the 484 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 3: left further left from me, you get a lot of 485 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 3: stuff people get a lot of stuff wrong there because 486 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 3: you're not trying to take someone as you did just 487 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 3: said so wonderfully, not trying to take someone on the 488 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 3: journey as to his wise good idea instead of like 489 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 3: you're terrible because you're doing that, And I understand the 490 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 3: emotion behind it, but I can't get around it. People. 491 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, no, again, I agree. I think we ought to 492 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 5: be talking to people about the pleasures of a vegan diet, 493 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 5: all of fresh foods and different foods, variety of tastes 494 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 5: that we get the fact that it's a healthy diet 495 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 5: and the fact that it's a diet that is both 496 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 5: kind of to animals, not complicit in factory farming and 497 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 5: abusive animals, but also of course kind of to the planet. 498 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 5: It has a much lower carbon footprint, so there's a 499 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 5: whole lot of things you could mention the risks of 500 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 5: pandemics which have in the past have come out of 501 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 5: factory farms sometimes, so there are many factors that contribute 502 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 5: to that. And I think you can just feel, yeah, 503 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 5: you know, this is the kind of lifestyle that I 504 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 5: want to live. 505 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:08,239 Speaker 4: I'm enjoying it. 506 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,640 Speaker 5: I like my food, I like the knowledge of where 507 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 5: my food comes from. And I'm flourishing with this way 508 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 5: of living. And you know you could try it too, 509 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,439 Speaker 5: but yes, you don't want to be constantly shaming people 510 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 5: for not going that way. 511 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 3: The Sobriety Fellowship that I'm a part of, the they 512 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 3: talk about attraction not promotion. And anyone who's been told 513 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 3: you've got a problem with alcohol, you need to stop 514 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 3: drinking those the first answer to that is we'll get fucked. 515 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 3: You're the one with the problem. I'm fine. Approaching it 516 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 3: from that angle never works. Never works, But I understand why, 517 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 3: because it's such an emotive motive thing. Insiders to talk about, 518 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 3: how can you heal a rupture, like where do you 519 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 3: even begin to hear or the rupture when there's been 520 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 3: when you've got two people who feel that they have 521 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 3: been morally wounded by something that's happened. How do you 522 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 3: come back together? 523 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 5: I think you have to be pragmatic about these things. 524 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 5: You have to look at where we are and there 525 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 5: are things you can change, and there are things you 526 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 5: can't change, and it's important to focus on the things. 527 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 4: That you can change. I think that's the beginning of 528 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 4: wisdom here. And so. 529 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 5: You can move people a little bit around the edges, 530 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 5: and you can buy a positive approach, as we were saying, 531 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 5: by trying to trying to look at the reasons why 532 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,719 Speaker 5: people hold certain views and see whether there's an opening 533 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 5: in that discussion that you can bring them closer to 534 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 5: the view that you believe is correct, and of course 535 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 5: give them the opportunity to bring you closer to the 536 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 5: view that they believe is correct. 537 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 3: And that's where the work is, I think often because yeah, 538 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 3: I might like to think that I don't have the 539 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 3: identity defense mechan that my former colleague had, but somewhere 540 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 3: in there it's there, And somewhere in there it's batting 541 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 3: away ideas that come up against because it's uncomfortable to 542 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 3: hear they hang on this thing that I think is 543 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 3: right actually might not be. It's difficult to hear that 544 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 3: stuff for the work that is to be done is 545 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 3: often within us, isn't it. 546 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:19,719 Speaker 4: Yeah. 547 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 5: I think often it's because you identify yourself with a 548 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 5: particular group, and the group has a kind of a 549 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 5: package of views, and some of those views you actually 550 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 5: may not really agree with if you think about them 551 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 5: a little bit, but because the group goes along with this, 552 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 5: and because you know that if you say, well, I 553 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 5: don't think that's quite right, then look at you and say, hey, 554 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 5: what's happened to you? You've gone over to the dark side. 555 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 5: So I think we need to be more open. And 556 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 5: one of the things that worries me about the last 557 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 5: twenty years or so in terms of conversations is that 558 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 5: we are becoming less open. There are things that people 559 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 5: hesitate to say, you know that they self censor because 560 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 5: of what their friends will think, and the people will 561 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 5: take offense. And I think we need to have a 562 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 5: more robust kind of discourse where people understand that you 563 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 5: may say things that defend them and they may say 564 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 5: things that offend you, but you can rise above offense. 565 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 5: And it's important to get these issues out in the 566 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 5: open and be able to talk about them. 567 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 3: It's particularly difficult when some of the learned scripts to 568 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 3: some of these conversations contain such dehumanizing language it is 569 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 3: difficult to see the humanity in another person once we've 570 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 3: crossed that line over to just the dehumanizing label of 571 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 3: well or people who are blurred are not to be 572 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 3: listened to. And that's when we get into real trouble. 573 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 3: And we don't need to look far back in history 574 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 3: to notice when's that happened? Even with all of your experience, 575 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 3: and this might serve as somewhat of a primer, let 576 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 3: me ask you, what do you do, Peter? When you're 577 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 3: confronted with a problem that you don't know what to do? 578 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 3: How do you break it down? Where do you even start? 579 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 5: Well, I inform myself about the nature of the problem 580 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 5: would be the first question. And what are the options 581 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 5: when you say I don't know what to do? What 582 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 5: are the things that I might be able to do? 583 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 5: And what would be the consequences of those things? Where 584 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 5: would they lead? What are the chances that I could 585 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 5: actually achieve? If I do that, I could actually achieve 586 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 5: the goal? 587 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, are you standing in a utilitarian place when you look? 588 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 4: Yes. 589 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 5: Utilitarianism is a theory that says the right action is 590 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 5: the one that has the best consequences, And by best consequences, 591 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 5: utilitarians mean the best impact on the well being of 592 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 5: all of those affected. And actually the utilitarians, whether it's 593 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 5: Bentham or John Stuart Mill or Henry Sidgwick, the great 594 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 5: nineteenth century utilitarians, were all very explicit that this includes 595 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 5: animals in that respect were far ahead of their time. 596 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 5: So yeah, that's what you look at. You look at 597 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 5: the consequences for all of the conscious beings who will 598 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 5: be affected by your action, as far as you can, 599 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 5: and obviously that's not easy to calculate. 600 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 3: Humans have this really interesting thing, and maybe it started 601 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 3: somewhere around after the Renaissance, after the scientific kind of raissance, 602 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 3: thinking that we as humans were separate from the rest 603 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 3: of the planet that we live in, that we can 604 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 3: exist in mold and shape and make corn out of 605 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 3: this thing, and make a coal out of a wolf, 606 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 3: and we are in charge, but we are not a 607 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 3: part of the system. Therefore we can treat it how 608 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 3: we like. 609 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 5: I mean, in the Renaissance, that was basically a religious 610 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 5: viewpoint that we have immortal souls. 611 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 4: They don't. 612 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 5: We're made in the image of God, They're not we're 613 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 5: part of this great chain of being, halfway between the 614 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 5: brutes and the angels. But you know, Darwin came along 615 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:03,479 Speaker 5: sometime after that, and I think Darwin showed very clearly 616 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 5: that we are part of an evolved form of evolved 617 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 5: forms of life, and we are still learning how much 618 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,760 Speaker 5: we share with many of the non human animals, whether 619 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 5: they're the ones that are close to us and look 620 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 5: like us, like chimpanzees and gorillas and the orangutangs, or 621 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 5: whether they're ones that live in a very different environment, 622 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 5: say like an octopus, and octopus is very fair and 623 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 5: removed from us in evolutionary terms, yet clearly it has intelligence, 624 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 5: can solve problems, and thinks very likely to be a 625 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 5: conscious being. 626 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 3: I've stood in the wall of the Hoover Dam and 627 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,840 Speaker 3: this is built by hand. There was machines involved, but 628 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 3: there was people that people died making it. But you 629 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 3: look at it. They've just completely changed the landscape. It's 630 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 3: gantu it in scale. How could you not think that 631 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 3: I have dominion over this world. Therefore I can treat 632 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 3: it however I want. I can burn as much coal, 633 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 3: I can clear as much for it as I like, 634 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 3: and then be told oh, so be populations are collapsing, 635 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 3: we need to do something about it. 636 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 5: Well, maybe because of all the fossil fuels you're burning. 637 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 5: The climate is changing and the Hoover Dam isn't going 638 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 5: to fill anymore, you know, because it becomes drier out there. 639 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 5: So yeah, you can't get away with ignoring all of 640 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:29,399 Speaker 5: the ramifications of your actions, and it will make even 641 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 5: these what seemed to be enormous human achievements like the 642 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 5: Hoover Dam, transforming nature in the end shows us that 643 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,320 Speaker 5: we are still part of nature and we cannot dominate 644 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 5: it and bend it to our will entirely. 645 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 3: It's the part that really gets me about the religious 646 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 3: fundamentalism when it comes to particularly climate action. It's like, 647 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 3: what hang on if you believe that God made it? 648 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 3: Or why he destroying it? 649 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 5: Well, I mean some Christians or religious people would say 650 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 5: God gave us free will and let us to do 651 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 5: what we're doing, and we're doing bad things. And I 652 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 5: hope those Christians are trying to use therefore, you will 653 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,760 Speaker 5: to reverse what's going on so that we can survive. 654 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,479 Speaker 3: We're growing adults, and you know, people can get set 655 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 3: in their ways sometimes, But for people who are listening 656 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 3: with children. What are some ways that we may be 657 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 3: able to help introduce the idea of ethical thinking and 658 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 3: decision making into it kids everyday life. So they go 659 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 3: through their life, starting younger, with a bit more scope 660 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:34,800 Speaker 3: around how they tackle problems. 661 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, obviously children learn by example what their parents do. 662 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 5: So I think if you are doing things, if you 663 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 5: are giving, for example, to help people in need, strangers 664 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 5: in need, you tell your children about this, You tell 665 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 5: them why you're doing it, and there's a good chance. 666 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 5: There's no certainty. Of course, some of them will rebel 667 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 5: and go differently, but they may well grow up that 668 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 5: is a good thing to do. And you know, if 669 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 5: you actually have good values and live in accordance with 670 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 5: their values, you are increasing the chances that your children 671 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 5: will do that too. 672 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:19,239 Speaker 3: When you're going out to dinner and you walk into 673 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 3: the veggie restaurant to people drop their forks and go oh. 674 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:26,799 Speaker 4: No, And I do know I wouldn't say that. 675 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 5: Occasionally somebody comes up to the table and says, you know, 676 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 5: are you Peter Singer or a red Animal liberation? 677 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 4: And it turned me into a vegetarian. So it does happen, 678 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 4: and sometimes the people running the restaurant. 679 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 5: No, but no, it's not quite as you describe. 680 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,839 Speaker 3: What happens when we start to focus on what we 681 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 3: can do, particularly when it comes to really difficult ethical, 682 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,359 Speaker 3: moral things that we're quite troubled by, like the stuff 683 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 3: we're seeing in the news. 684 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,399 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, you know, if we do that well 685 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 5: and seriously, and we we are working with other people 686 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 5: who have similar values and who can be our friends 687 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 5: or companions in that because we are social beings and 688 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 5: we don't do very well most of us alone, I 689 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 5: think we find that a really fulfilling life. 690 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:13,600 Speaker 4: A life well lived. 691 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 5: And by the way, let me mentioned I'm co hosting 692 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 5: a podcast called Lives Well Lived, and we talk with 693 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 5: lots of people who are living well. And if you're 694 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 5: interested in how to follow up that, you know, there's 695 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,880 Speaker 5: a wide array of examples that we have now in 696 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 5: the episodes we've released. 697 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 3: Is there a through line that you've identified already? 698 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:33,800 Speaker 4: Well? 699 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,560 Speaker 5: We do always ask our guests whether they've lived well. 700 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,439 Speaker 5: Most of them say they have not, absolutely all of them. 701 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 5: And when we then ask them, well, what has been 702 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:45,280 Speaker 5: most important in your life? 703 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 4: Warm? 704 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 5: Close relationships with somebody I love and care for. It's 705 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:56,840 Speaker 5: a very important part of that. Having some purposes that 706 00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:01,240 Speaker 5: I value is important is another part of that. People 707 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,839 Speaker 5: want some kind of meaning in their lives. I think 708 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:10,280 Speaker 5: the last two episodes that we've recorded both about mattering 709 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 5: about do I matter to others? One with Jennifer Wallace, 710 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:19,359 Speaker 5: who's a journalist who's been writing about this, and one 711 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 5: with Rebecca Goldstone who's a philosopher. And you know, like 712 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,840 Speaker 5: forty years ago she wrote an interesting novel called The 713 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 5: Mind Body Problem about a graduate philosophy student and both 714 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 5: their intellectual life and their body life, their sexual life, 715 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:40,399 Speaker 5: and it's a very good read, and it does talk 716 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 5: about mattering. And she has now come back to that 717 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:47,439 Speaker 5: forty years later in writing a more philosophical study of 718 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 5: what it is to matter and why that's important, and 719 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 5: how it can help us to live fulfilling and meaningful life. 720 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 3: And at the risk of making a really clunky segue, 721 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 3: all of these things and more can be yours by 722 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 3: effectively donating a small portion of your owncome to a 723 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 3: charity that has been assessed and looked at by the life. 724 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 3: You can say foundation, thank you. 725 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:14,319 Speaker 4: That's a very good view, yes, but. 726 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 3: It truly is. I mean, that's that's what appinds. I mean, 727 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,040 Speaker 3: you can't provide you the relationship and care. It's never 728 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:20,799 Speaker 3: a deathbed thing. That's like a wish I spent more 729 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:22,239 Speaker 3: time scrolling on my phone. It's like a whish I 730 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 3: spent more time with the people I love. Yeah, it's 731 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 3: also you know, I mattered to people and I got 732 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:29,239 Speaker 3: out of bed and I knew that I had a 733 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,319 Speaker 3: sense of purpose and that came to me when I 734 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,279 Speaker 3: became a step father. Suddenly in my life was just 735 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,400 Speaker 3: all about providing for this young girl and now we 736 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 3: were two kids like this is it's incredible. It just 737 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 3: gives you this thing and to matter to somebody. If 738 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,279 Speaker 3: you mentioned before the people having a conversation who've been 739 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 3: trained up to me and I speak to people's depression. 740 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 3: They men never know your name, but because that service 741 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,800 Speaker 3: is there, you matter to them and that's really important. 742 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 4: Yeah. 743 00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:00,239 Speaker 5: Absolutely, And as we're in the section of this podcas 744 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,719 Speaker 5: that gets into clunky segues, let me mention that as 745 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:08,120 Speaker 5: well as individuals giving, I've now joined a or started 746 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 5: to form a movement to encourage more companies to give profits. 747 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,839 Speaker 5: And actually we have some great examples in Australia. If 748 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,359 Speaker 5: you have ever bought tickets for an event through humanitics. 749 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 5: You're purchasing, your fees are going to a company that 750 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:30,120 Speaker 5: is both a very efficient company selling tickets and also 751 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 5: one hundred percent of the profits go to charity's that's 752 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 5: the way it's set up. Some of others will know 753 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:39,720 Speaker 5: who gives a crap The toilet paper company. 754 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,759 Speaker 3: I wipe my bum with their product this morning. 755 00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 5: And I did too, so they needed some investment money. 756 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:52,040 Speaker 5: But fifty percent of their profits go to providing sanitation 757 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,040 Speaker 5: and clean drinking water for people in low income countries. 758 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,680 Speaker 5: So you know, Australia has some good examples of these 759 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 5: kinds of companies, and we in the Profit for Good movement, 760 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,279 Speaker 5: which is Profit Forgod dot com if you want to 761 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 5: go there. Trying to encourage other companies to give at 762 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 5: least ten percent of their profits anyway, and if they 763 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,720 Speaker 5: can give more, of course that's better because there's a huge, 764 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 5: huge amount of you know, I think trillions of dollars 765 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 5: of company profits in the world, and less than one 766 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,560 Speaker 5: percent of them are going to good causes, and I 767 00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,360 Speaker 5: think they could easily be boosted, and it could in 768 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:34,279 Speaker 5: a way help to make capitalism more ethical if more 769 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:35,760 Speaker 5: of those profits went for good things. 770 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,920 Speaker 3: Oh, there's more than enough food and money that exists 771 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,720 Speaker 3: on the world today to help everyone not live in poverty. 772 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 3: It's just making sure we don't have to make anything new. 773 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 3: It's just making sure the stuff can get there and 774 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,880 Speaker 3: convincing people who've got their hands on it so maybe 775 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,440 Speaker 3: move it around a bit. It's an absolute highlight to 776 00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 3: be able to speak with you again, Peter. Thank you 777 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,040 Speaker 3: so much taking the time with us to that. 778 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:00,920 Speaker 4: It's been great. 779 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 2: Peter Singer is the founder of The Life You Can Save, 780 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 2: which is based on the book of the same name, 781 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,799 Speaker 2: The Life you Can Save dot org dot au. If 782 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:11,640 Speaker 2: you want to dive back to the book that came 783 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,680 Speaker 2: out fifty one years ago now Animal Liberation, you can. 784 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,200 Speaker 2: But I think you know it was wild at the time. 785 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 2: It was groundbreaking, world changing. But yeah, he's a very 786 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:23,960 Speaker 2: interesting dude. Links to The Life you Can Save and 787 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,160 Speaker 2: also Peter's podcast are in the show notes. Thank you 788 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:31,400 Speaker 2: so much for getting on board today. Please, as I said, like, rate, subscribe, follow, 789 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,320 Speaker 2: jump on YouTube, watch full episodes and video if you want. 790 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,280 Speaker 2: They're all there. Every bit of support helps this show. Certainly, 791 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,680 Speaker 2: it helps enormously more than anything. When you tell somebody 792 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:43,440 Speaker 2: about this show, just tell them, yeah, I'll listen to 793 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 2: this great episode. It's on much of the podcast. 794 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 1: Here it is, here's a link. I'd be very grateful 795 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:47,279 Speaker 1: for that. 796 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,320 Speaker 2: Thank you for Damian Haffordan for being mya magnifficent, executive producer, 797 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,799 Speaker 2: Cassidy Creevy for giving me on time up to day 798 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:55,920 Speaker 2: and where I'm going to be when I said I'm 799 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,080 Speaker 2: going to be there, and thank you for listening. Can't 800 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,000 Speaker 2: make the show without you. 801 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:01,160 Speaker 3: Wo