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Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series BROM contains coarse

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Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by Me Headley Thomas and The Australian. Some fifteen

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Speaker 1: years ago, Mitch Watson spoke to me about his work

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Speaker 1: with police dogs helping catch criminals and locate cadavers. Mitch,

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Speaker 1: I saw on your website a photograph of you in

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Speaker 1: Queensland Police uniform with a beautiful looking dog, a big

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Speaker 1: German Shepherd.

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Speaker 2: I was a general purpose dog Kendler, and I also

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Speaker 2: had a dog do cadav work as well.

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Speaker 1: You've probably heard about the horse Whisperer. There was a

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Speaker 1: book and then a movie about a cowboy with the

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Speaker 1: remarkable ability to calm and train horses. Think of Mitch

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Speaker 1: Watson as the dog whisperer.

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Speaker 2: Some people haven't innate sort of relationship with dogs. From

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Speaker 2: dealing with tens of thousands of domestic dogs of all

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Speaker 2: breeds and dealing with different behavioral issues.

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Speaker 1: Since leaving the police, you are involved with lots of

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Speaker 1: dogs that are family pets. They're not police trained dogs,

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Speaker 1: are they?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 1: Have you had a chance to listen to the exchange

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Speaker 1: from the inquest in two thousand and two between the

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Speaker 1: lawyer for John Winfield and the then detective Sergeant Glenn

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Speaker 1: Taylor in relation to how a dog, a.

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Speaker 4: Family pet might react.

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Speaker 1: To a hypothetical body in the boot of a car. Yes,

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Speaker 1: in a few moments you are going to hear that

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Speaker 1: particular exchange again. It unfolded in episode twenty six. There's

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Speaker 1: something about it that has nagged at me. It's bound

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Speaker 1: up in the insistence of the barrister Craig Legget, the

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Speaker 1: almost desperate efforts of Craig Leggett, under instructions from his

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Speaker 1: client John Winfield, to rubbish a proposition or theory of

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Speaker 1: police that Broman's body was transported somewhere. Craig Leggett ridiculed

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Speaker 1: the idea that her body could have been concealed in

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Speaker 1: the Ford Falcon's boot for a road trip to Sydney

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Speaker 1: when the family pet, a dog called Mopsey, was in

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Speaker 1: the car on the back seat with the two girls.

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Speaker 5: Now, I just want to explore a second last issue

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Speaker 5: with you, and it's this, with your experience, considerable experience

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Speaker 5: over the years, the likelihood of Broman's body being in

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Speaker 5: the boot of the car on the evening of sixteen

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Speaker 5: May with Mopsi the dog in the back seat. It's

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Speaker 5: just so highly improbable as to be fanciful, isn't it.

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Speaker 5: That would be your view, wouldn't it.

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Speaker 6: See we've only got mister Winfield's version. You're not serious,

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Speaker 6: are years saying that the dogs are like a type

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Speaker 6: of sniffer dog or something like that or what? You're

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Speaker 6: not seriously contending?

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Speaker 5: Are you that it's likely that Bronwan was in the

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Speaker 5: boot of the car being driven to Sydney with Mopsi

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Speaker 5: the dog in the back seat?

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Speaker 4: Well?

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Speaker 7: Really or is that a possibility?

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Speaker 3: Is it?

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Speaker 6: I've put things there. I didn't make any direct comment

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Speaker 6: whether she was put in the boot or not. Well,

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Speaker 6: I'm just asking you for your experience.

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Speaker 5: Now, you're just not prepared to concede that in your experience,

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Speaker 5: it's highly improbable that Bronwan was in the boot being

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Speaker 5: taken to Sydney with the dog in the back seat.

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Speaker 5: That strikes you as fanciful, doesn't it.

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Speaker 6: Look I've had probably over thirty to forty murder investigations

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Speaker 6: in my service, and I mean, you wouldn't believe what

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Speaker 6: people do with bodies.

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Speaker 1: I see, unbelievable.

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Speaker 5: It would be a very bold move, wouldn't it to

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Speaker 5: have a dog in the back seat with a body

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Speaker 5: in the boot?

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Speaker 6: As I said, you would not believe what people are

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Speaker 6: capable of under stressful situations, what they're going to do

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Speaker 6: with the dead body.

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Speaker 5: Yes, and sometime between the body going in the boot

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Speaker 5: and arriving in Sydney with the two little girls in

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Speaker 5: the back seat, the body is disposed of. That's the theory,

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Speaker 5: is it. It's just fanciful, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: That exchange that you just heard could be a bit

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Speaker 1: of a red flag in my view. At the inquest,

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Speaker 1: John and his lawyer held a hard line position. It

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Speaker 1: hadn't changed since nineteen ninety three, and it was that

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Speaker 1: John had absolutely nothing to do with Bromman's disappearance, full stop.

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Speaker 1: John's story was and still is, that Bromwan had walked

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Speaker 1: out of the Lenox head house about nine thirty pm

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Speaker 1: to take a break of a few few days. Why then,

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Speaker 1: was John seemingly determined for his lawyer to emphatically lampoon

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Speaker 1: a theory about a method of body disposal, that method

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Speaker 1: being the family car and a concealment in the car's boot.

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Speaker 1: Craig Leggett did not try to rely on any expert

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Speaker 1: evidence from dog handlers or animal behavior experts before he

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Speaker 1: teed off about it. The exchange does seem redolent of

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Speaker 1: a client John wanting his lawyer to work really hard

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Speaker 1: to distance John from the Ford Falcon's boot, but overdoing it,

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Speaker 1: and in overdoing it, he's drawing attention to it, protesting

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Speaker 1: too much. I asked Mitch Watson about dog behavior in

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Speaker 1: this regard. He sees hundreds of dogs a year at

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Speaker 1: his Harry's Hounds in Brisbane. The lawyer was suggesting that

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Speaker 1: it was fanciful, ridiculous there would be a body in

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Speaker 1: a boot with the dog not reacting in a very

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Speaker 1: obvious way.

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Speaker 2: I see the position of the barrister and I just

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Speaker 2: can't see how it could arrive at that opinion without

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Speaker 2: any level of knowledge on the subject.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about a newly acquired puppy that wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: been in the family for a long time. In those circumstances,

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Speaker 1: how do you think the dog could be reacting.

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Speaker 2: Completely neutral and it wouldn't identify that there was a

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Speaker 2: body in the back of the car.

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Speaker 1: It might be aware of the smell of its other

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Speaker 1: owner in the car.

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Speaker 2: Correct, and if there wasn't like separation anxiety, which I'm

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Speaker 2: assuming it wouldn't have been, then the dog would just

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Speaker 2: sit there just normally and just passive and just not

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Speaker 2: create any sort of change in behavior. So stretch it

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Speaker 2: to the point of view that this dog, newly a

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Speaker 2: quiet dog, was somehow trained like a kadava dog, would

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Speaker 2: respond like a kadava dog is quite fanciful. Really, it

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Speaker 2: needs training, and that's what law enforcement agencies spend a

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Speaker 2: lot of money on. Training these dogs to do these behaviors.

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Speaker 2: For whatever they're searching, whether it be exposers or cadabs

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Speaker 2: or drugs. They're inclined to find that odor because the

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Speaker 2: reward means so much to them. They're toil food and

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Speaker 2: that's their reward. But it has to be trained to

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Speaker 2: pair the odor with the behavior and then get the reward.

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Speaker 2: So if it's never really presented with that odor, then

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Speaker 2: there's just no reason for it to do that behavior.

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Speaker 2: It's not like a light switch is just turned on

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Speaker 2: or off. The timeline of when the person was allegedly

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Speaker 2: placed in a boot, it would have to be in

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Speaker 2: a decomposition sort of state. If it was a number

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Speaker 2: of days later, a trained dog then would identify it

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Speaker 2: and present a behavior. An ordinary dog, in my view,

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Speaker 2: would not present any sort of change of behavior.

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Speaker 1: And what about just several hours later.

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Speaker 2: I'd be very very surprised, very surprised.

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Speaker 1: During the inquest in two thousand and two, nobody from

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Speaker 1: Roman's family nor from the police suggested the theory that

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Speaker 1: the building site at Illowong in the Shire, which John

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Speaker 1: returned to for his bricklaying work, was a potential burial

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Speaker 1: site for Bromman's body just before the pouring of concrete

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Speaker 1: for the garage and patio slabs. Mech hypothetically, if a

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Speaker 1: body is buried beneath concrete, say several inches thick, and

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Speaker 1: in the ground beneath concrete, drilling occurs so that holes

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Speaker 1: are created through the concrete and into the earth. If

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Speaker 1: a cadava dog is sniffing above the holes that are

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Speaker 1: drilled into that concrete, will the kadava dogs naturally detect

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Speaker 1: a cadava because of the scent coming up through those

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Speaker 1: drill holes.

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Speaker 2: It would have to be right on the money with

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Speaker 2: the drill hole over the body. I just can't see

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Speaker 2: that being an accurate outcome in.

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Speaker 1: Your opinion, then, would you want to fully excavate a

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Speaker 1: concrete slab to be certain that there's nothing beneath it?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, if it was my relative that was in that

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Speaker 2: area and I was concerned, I would like it to

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Speaker 2: be fully exposed and see what the truth is if

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Speaker 2: there's anything there. Anything short of that is not satisfactory.

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Speaker 2: You could be tracking an a fender, you could be

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Speaker 2: searching for an item with a search dog and it

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Speaker 2: could still miss it. You need the planets to align

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Speaker 2: to get it right. It's not an exact science all

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Speaker 2: the time with utilizing dogs to search for things in

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Speaker 2: unusual situations. It was my relative in there by God,

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Speaker 2: let's do this properly.

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Speaker 1: Rip it up. You'll recall Chris Darcy from an earlier

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Speaker 1: episode when he and his team from search dog Sydney

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Speaker 1: came to Lennox Head for a search of Ainsworth with

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Speaker 1: the help of former Australian Navy Captain Ashley McDonald, a

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Speaker 1: highly trained diver. We disturbed the lake bed and Chris

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Speaker 1: Darsi relied on his highly trained dogs to try to

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Speaker 1: pick up a scent on the surface of the lake.

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Speaker 1: We went to this effort before we properly appreciated and

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Speaker 1: understood the evidence surrounding another scenario, Chris, if one of

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Speaker 1: your Kardava dogs was in the back seat of a

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Speaker 1: car with a body in the boot, how would one

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Speaker 1: of your Kardava dogs respond.

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Speaker 8: They'd continually bark, and they'd be trying to access it

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Speaker 8: and penetrate it by trying to dig through the foam

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Speaker 8: in the back sleep.

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Speaker 1: And that's a very different reaction to what you might

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Speaker 1: expect a family pet that's untrained to do.

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Speaker 8: That's correct, because the dog is not trying to give

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Speaker 8: an alert to any specific scent.

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Speaker 1: There would be a potential recognition by a family pet

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Speaker 1: of another person in the vehicle that the dog can't

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Speaker 1: see but is aware of because of the scent.

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Speaker 8: Yes, the dog could be restless, it could be whiny,

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Speaker 8: It could just be a matter of that smells the

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Speaker 8: sense and then simply lies down again and goes back

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Speaker 8: to slot because that's what it normally does in the car.

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Speaker 1: But certainly not reacting in a way that could indicate

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Speaker 1: to someone else in the car that there was something

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Speaker 1: of concern, for example, in the boot.

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Speaker 8: No, I don't think anybody would be able to tell

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Speaker 8: that the dog's reacting any differently to what it normally does.

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Speaker 8: I'd say that would be common behavior that they've witnessed

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Speaker 8: the dog too previously.

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Speaker 1: George Radmore made it his mission sixteen years ago to

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Speaker 1: try to take the brief of evidence for Bromwin Winfield's

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Speaker 1: suspicious disappearance to the next level to a prosecution for

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Speaker 1: murder of a known person. Bromwin's case became a priority

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Speaker 1: reinvestigation as the then senior detective with a small team

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Speaker 1: took it on in two thousand and nine.

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Speaker 4: One of the.

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Speaker 1: Earliest tasks that they oversaw was a visit by forensics

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Speaker 1: and crime scene specialists to the house at Sandstone Crescent.

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Speaker 1: Deb Hall and Murray Nolan remembered it well.

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Speaker 9: They all do. They also brought the Dava dogs up

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Speaker 9: in that investigation and went right over the house. Was

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Speaker 9: George Radmore that month where all his crew from the

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Speaker 9: unsold homicide squad I think it was, and I'm friends

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Speaker 9: now from a Margaret Olivey in the house at this

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Speaker 9: stage and they about the situation.

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Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor had been retired for a good six and

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Speaker 1: a half years when he was contacted at his balon

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Speaker 1: A home by George Radmore.

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Speaker 10: The Young Sign Homicide team leader came to see me

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Speaker 10: and we spoke obviously about my investigation, and then I

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Speaker 10: did out some phone calls with him. They had a

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Speaker 10: team of detective up here looking into the motor again.

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Speaker 10: The person thing they asked was whereas all the material?

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Speaker 10: Whether they actually located that or what happened to it,

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Speaker 10: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: The real George Radmore sounds like this.

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Speaker 11: The mail was not cooperating with the investigation and actually

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Speaker 11: provided some misleading information.

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Speaker 12: It was on the front page of the Northern Star

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Speaker 12: at the time.

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Speaker 3: I've got a newspaper.

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Speaker 9: Clipping of them out in front of our place in

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Speaker 9: their white suits.

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Speaker 1: We found the article. It quoted George Radmore, then a

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Speaker 1: detective senior sergeant. He didn't mince his words when he

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Speaker 1: spoke to the reporter in late May two thousand and nine,

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Speaker 1: seven years after the end of the inquest which recommended

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Speaker 1: a prosecution of John Winfield. These are the detective's words.

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Speaker 1: It's not his voice.

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Speaker 13: We're here to conduct prime scene investigations for forensic evidence

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Speaker 13: associated with the suspected murder of Bronwyn Winfield in nineteen

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Speaker 13: ninety three. It would be fair to say that this

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Speaker 13: was the last place she was last seen alive. Already,

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Speaker 13: we've had new information come forward that we were not anticipating.

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Speaker 1: Some of that new information came out of a note

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Speaker 1: sent by Glenn Taylor to Andy and Michelle read the

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Speaker 1: year before two thousand and eight. The retired detective's email

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Speaker 1: was friendly and mostly personal. As a result of Glenn's

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Speaker 1: still unresolved murder investigation, he had come to like and

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Speaker 1: respect Andy and Michelle, and in two thousand and eight,

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Speaker 1: Bromwin's case was still very march on Glen's mind. Despite

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Speaker 1: his retirement, he remained bitterly disappointed that the Office of

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Speaker 1: the Director of Public Prosecutions had rejected the recommendation of

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Speaker 1: the Deputy State Coroner that a known person, John Winfield,

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Speaker 1: be prosecuted. In Glen's email to the Reeds, he shared

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Speaker 1: his family's news, including the school and university achievements of

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Speaker 1: his children.

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Speaker 6: Your kids would have grown up a lot now. I

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Speaker 6: hope everyone is well at your end, Liz said to say, Hi,

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Speaker 6: we are all getting on with life. I just don't

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Speaker 6: know why they decided not to indict John Winfield.

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Speaker 1: And then Glenn's email went on to briefly describe a

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Speaker 1: recent random meeting with a woman. Glenn had recognized her

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Speaker 1: at a mutual friend's birthday party near Lennox Head. She

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Speaker 1: was someone he had tried to talk to during his

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Speaker 1: investigation a decade earlier. In nineteen ninety, they started chatting

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Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor in this email Michelle.

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Speaker 3: That particular email.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, can you just read to me the email from

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Speaker 1: where it says I got talking?

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Speaker 3: Okay? I got talking to her and she said that

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Speaker 3: she didn't want to get involved in the police investigation

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Speaker 3: at the time and still doesn't. She told me that

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Speaker 3: when she broke up with John Winfield, he had placed

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Speaker 3: his hands around her throat and had choked her.

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Speaker 1: Glenn was describing what he was told by a woman

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Speaker 1: called Glena. You heard a little about Lena during one

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Speaker 1: of the inquest episodes.

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Speaker 3: Because she had a relationship and she was actually living

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Speaker 3: in the house with John. All of a sudden she

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Speaker 3: disappeared and she left him moved out.

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Speaker 1: But what's the timeframe of you trying to find out

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Speaker 1: who Lena is?

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Speaker 3: Glenn, Glenn's started doing the interviews for the coronial inquest,

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Speaker 3: but she wouldn't participate. She said, no way, no way,

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Speaker 3: I don't want to say anything. I don't want to

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Speaker 3: do anything. I don't want to see nothing. She would not.

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Speaker 6: She refused, okay, and then.

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Speaker 3: He saw her. Years later, he and his wife are

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Speaker 3: at this party and Saura and spoke to her, and

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Speaker 3: off the cuff they made that comment, and he sent

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Speaker 3: it to us because we still think that she needs

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Speaker 3: to be interviewed.

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Speaker 1: Lena's potential significance in Bromwin's case looms large. Now. I

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Speaker 1: have had some lengthy off the record conversations with Lena.

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Speaker 1: The most recent one occurred shortly before the release of

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Speaker 1: this episode. Later you are going to hear how she

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Speaker 1: feels about coming forward. But first, let's go back to

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Speaker 1: Lennox Head and the start of Lena's connection to John

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Speaker 1: Winfield's nineteen ninety four and Bromwin had been missing for

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Speaker 1: more than seven months, but Judy Singh was keeping a

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Speaker 1: suspicious eye on her near neighbor, the man Judy says

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Speaker 1: she saw driving his Ford Falcon late on the night

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Speaker 1: of Sunday May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three, with what appeared

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Speaker 1: to be a body wrapped in what looked like sheets.

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Speaker 14: He eventually was seeing another lady a couple of doors

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Speaker 14: up and on the other side of the road.

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Speaker 4: I think you're talking about Lena.

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Speaker 15: Yeah, that was her name, Lena.

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Speaker 1: Lena lived in a modest house she had newly bought.

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Speaker 15: Back then.

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Speaker 1: It was almost opposite Judy Singh's place. Crystal and Lauren

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Speaker 1: and Lauren's friend Amy would sometimes wave to Lena as

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Speaker 1: she drove out of Sandstone Crescent to go to work.

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Speaker 1: On weekday mornings, the girls would visit Lena in her house.

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Speaker 1: One thing led to another and Lena met John. A

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Speaker 1: relationship started here is Bromwin's cousin, Megan.

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Speaker 15: Reid Russell said. She said that she's set them up together,

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Speaker 15: John and Lena, and she moved in very shortly after.

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Speaker 1: Lena was working for a new South Wales government agency

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Speaker 1: in Ballina and John was still bricklaying around the town. Coincidentally,

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Speaker 1: Lena knew Bev Brooker, the woman whose inheritance has made

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Speaker 1: John a multi millionaire. Lena and Bev worked for the

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Speaker 1: same government agency, but Lena did not know that there

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Speaker 1: was local suspicion of John about the fate of Bromwin.

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Speaker 1: Back then, Lena was led to believe that Bromwin had

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Speaker 1: disappeared from a party in town while John was away

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Speaker 1: working in Sydney. Here's Lena's other neighbor from that time,

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Speaker 1: Marilyn Hannigan. Her husband, Bruce, was a retired police detective

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Speaker 1: from Victoria.

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Speaker 14: Yeah, we were pretty concerned at the time about Lena,

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Speaker 14: who lived on the other side of us. She had

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Speaker 14: thought he'd done nothing wrong, and that was before she

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Speaker 14: moved in. Bressad tried to talk to her and say

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Speaker 14: be careful. When she'd moved in. He just said to her,

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Speaker 14: if you've got to get out of that house and

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Speaker 14: get over here to smash my window if you have to.

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Speaker 14: He had said to her, anytime of the day or night,

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Speaker 14: and she said, oh, take it from there, meaning that

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Speaker 14: he would know.

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Speaker 4: Who to call.

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Speaker 14: We were fairly concerned about her safety. Most of all,

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Speaker 14: she was a tiny little girl.

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Speaker 1: Did she indicate anything to you about what was going on?

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Speaker 16: No, nothing like that.

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Speaker 1: Before Lena abruptly ended the relationship with John and moved

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Speaker 1: out of the house in which Broman was last seen alive.

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Speaker 1: Andy and Michelle had dropped in there on their way

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Speaker 1: back from a road trip north, and that's when they

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Speaker 1: noted there were photographs of a woman they later understood

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Speaker 1: was Lena, as well as the girls, Lauren and Crystal

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Speaker 1: in the house, but.

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Speaker 12: Not one picture of their gun.

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Speaker 1: Here's Bromwin's sister, Kim Marshall.

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Speaker 16: And on my other visit to the house, I was

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Speaker 16: very shocked to find that all the photophones had been

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Speaker 16: replaced with photos of another woman who I may have

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Speaker 16: found out was Lena on the sideboard.

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Speaker 4: I couldn't believe it.

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Speaker 17: Why are two kids being raised in the manner that

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Speaker 17: they're being forced to get their mother?

359
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Speaker 1: Before the two thousand and two inquests, Andy Reid found

360
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Speaker 1: Lena and he had a long conversation with her. Andy

361
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Speaker 1: gave some evidence at the inquest about Lena and her

362
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Speaker 1: very adverse reflections on her former lover, John Winfield.

363
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Speaker 3: But she has been very elusive, and she said she

364
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Speaker 3: frightened and scared.

365
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Speaker 1: Andy, what do you remember about your conversation with Lena?

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Speaker 12: She was quite civil with me.

367
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Speaker 11: She did tell me that when she left, she packed

368
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Speaker 11: all her stuff up after John left for work one

369
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Speaker 11: morning and left the house and never spoke to him again.

370
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Speaker 11: She said to me, volatile one minute and calm the next.

371
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Speaker 11: He said, Doctor Jacklin misdied is what she called him.

372
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Speaker 11: She said, I never want to be in the room

373
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Speaker 11: with him again. I never want to see the bike again.

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Speaker 1: Did you ask her to give a statement to the police.

375
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Speaker 1: Do you ask her to come forward? Yes?

376
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Speaker 11: She said no to me that she wouldn't give a statement.

377
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Speaker 1: She was scared of the fella. The investigation by George

378
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Speaker 1: Radmore with the Unsolved Homicide Unit in Sydney from two

379
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Speaker 1: thousand and nine came after direct approaches by Andy and Michelle.

380
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Speaker 3: We would ring the Solved Thomas Ide Squad at Parramatta

381
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Speaker 3: and asked to speak to whoever it was looking into

382
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Speaker 3: her particular case.

383
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Speaker 1: Had you stopped contacting Ballanapolis by then?

384
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Speaker 3: Yes?

385
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Speaker 12: Well, people had moved on from up there. Glen had

386
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Speaker 12: left the force.

387
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Speaker 1: And then Glenn Taylor in two thousand and eight drops

388
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Speaker 1: you an email six years after the inquest and he

389
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Speaker 1: says he's bumped into Lena, Yes, and he adds the

390
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Speaker 1: detail that Lena told him that John had tried to

391
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Speaker 1: choke her. Andy and Michelle shared Glenn's two thousand and

392
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Speaker 1: eight email with the detectives as part of the Reed

393
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Speaker 1: family's bid to have the case looked at again.

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Speaker 3: Any kind of information or something comes up that we

395
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Speaker 3: think vital, he always passes it on what they do

396
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Speaker 3: with it.

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Speaker 12: I'm not sure.

398
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Speaker 3: I'd say she's probably pivotal. She was in a relationship

399
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 3: with him and something's happened. From what she has told Glenn,

400
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 3: we believe it's a similar thing to what may have

401
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:16,160
Speaker 3: happened to Bromwin. I think her information would be vital.

402
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 3: It would just be another incident in the many we've

403
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 3: heard about where violence has been shown to a woman

404
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Speaker 3: by him.

405
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Speaker 1: Glenn has voiced the statement that he gave in two

406
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Speaker 1: thousand and nine for the investigation headed by George Radmore.

407
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Speaker 6: On Saturday, June twenty first, two thousand and eight, my

408
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,639
Speaker 6: wife and I were invited to attend the fiftieth birthday

409
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Speaker 6: party of Wendy at her property near Woodburn. About an

410
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Speaker 6: hour after I had arrived at the property, Wendy was

411
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Speaker 6: introducing her guests. I recall being introduced to a female

412
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Speaker 6: who said her name was Lenine. I happened to start

413
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Speaker 6: talking to Lena, and a short time into the conversation

414
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 6: I said to her, did you used to go out

415
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Speaker 6: with a man named Jonathan Winfield? Lena said, why do

416
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 6: you want to know? I said, I think I may

417
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 6: have spoken to you before. I used to be the

418
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 6: detective sergeant at Ballina, and I was in charge of

419
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 6: the Bromwin Winfield disappearance. Lena said, I remember talking to you. Yes,

420
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 6: I did go out with Jonathan Winfield. I said, I

421
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 6: know it has been a while now, but I believe

422
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 6: that a task force may be looking at a number

423
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Speaker 6: of unsolved homicides. Broman Winfield's matter maybe one of them.

424
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Speaker 1: Lena said, I.

425
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Speaker 6: Didn't even know about Bromwin until towards the end of

426
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 6: my relationship with John. I said, do you know that

427
00:25:54,960 --> 00:26:00,119
Speaker 6: Bromwin was Jonathan Winfield's third wife. Lena said yes, but

428
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 6: I didn't find that out until later either. Lena said

429
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 6: he was nice at first, but at the end it

430
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:12,439
Speaker 6: was quite messy. He became very angry with me and

431
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 6: he pushed me around too. I said, what did he do?

432
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 6: Lena said he was really possessive. I saw the other

433
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 6: side of him when we broke up. I was glad

434
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 6: to get out of the relationship. He just got a

435
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 6: bit rough with me. It's not worth going over it now.

436
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 6: I said, would you talk to the detectives if they

437
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 6: came to speak to you. Lena said, I don't think so.

438
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 6: I have moved on I have my own life to lead.

439
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 6: Having interview Jonathan Winfield's previous wives, I believe the information

440
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 6: told to me by Lena was important.

441
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: Andy remembered something George Radmore told him.

442
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 17: He said, I've worked on plenty of these cases. He said,

443
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 17: the day got a scary evidence of bromwin turns up

444
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,120
Speaker 17: in the ground anywhere. If a body or anything ever

445
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 17: turned up, he'd be dragged away within forty eight hours.

446
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 8: Mate.

447
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 12: That's how confidence they were.

448
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,959
Speaker 1: In my first telephone interview with Broman's cousin Megan, before

449
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 1: we met just days later at her home on Sydney's

450
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 1: Northern Beaches in September twenty twenty three, she heaped praise

451
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: on the detective. Now Megan gave George Radmore a very

452
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: different timeline and witness account about John's purported movements at

453
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 1: a crucial time. Meghan's newer version is nothing like what

454
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: she had said previously. The differences are so striking it

455
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 1: is hard to reconcile them. You are about to learn

456
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,400
Speaker 1: of this particular aspect of the brief of evidence for

457
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 1: the first time. It's not the first time, however, that

458
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 1: Meghan's roles and her evidence have been controversial. You'll recall

459
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 1: that Andy has previously revealed that he even asked the

460
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 1: detective Sergeant Graham Diskin to stop talking to Meghan. Andy

461
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: was concerned way back in nineteen ninety three that Meghan

462
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: had been passing confidential information to John back then, resulting

463
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: in John learning of the family's suspicions and the potential

464
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 1: strategies of police. Meghan emphatically rejects any suggestion that she

465
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 1: was helping John while remaining in friendly contact with him.

466
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 4: For a while.

467
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,120
Speaker 1: Here's Meghan explaining some of her involvement in the police

468
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: cold case reinvestigation headed by George Radmore from two thousand

469
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: and nine.

470
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 18: I spent a good year with George Radmore, That's the

471
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 18: whole thing. He would come down to monov Our police

472
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 18: station and meet me there. And it wasn't until George

473
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 18: Radmore became involved that he asked me the right questions

474
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 18: because there was so much stuff that would never ever

475
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 18: presented to the coroner that I had.

476
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 12: The whole timeline was wrong.

477
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 15: You see, he left, not said, and he came threat

478
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 15: to my house with the kids.

479
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 12: He had never been to my house before ever. Because

480
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 12: John and I went close.

481
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 18: I know where it was because my husband was ready

482
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 18: to catch the bus to the train station at seven

483
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 18: fifteen in the morning.

484
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 12: Okay, now I know that Perry was sitting down.

485
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 18: Having his breakfast and I was feeding the children when

486
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 18: John appears at our back door with the children, and

487
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 18: I was like what. And to this day, I can

488
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 18: tell you I will never be able to get the

489
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 18: sight of his face out of my mind.

490
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 12: And his behavior.

491
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 18: I can only think of those cartoon characters with the

492
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 18: eyes that bulge out, you know. And he looked like

493
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 18: he was having a breakdown. He was stopping at the mouth.

494
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 18: He was white, gray in color. He was just babbling.

495
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 18: And my ex husband had no time for anybody, and

496
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 18: he just said, get to the point, what are you're

497
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 18: doing kind of thing. And the children were dressed in pajamas,

498
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 18: only no other clothes were brought with her. They were

499
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 18: holding it a little puppy, a malchese called Moxie. They

500
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 18: looked like they were in shock, and they just stood

501
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 18: behind him sort of thing, and never said a word.

502
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 18: And it wasn't till he disappeared for a while that

503
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,959
Speaker 18: I sort of questioned as much as I could. It

504
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 18: was manic, and I kept diaries, and I wrote things

505
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 18: down in all the diaries, and each time I say

506
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 18: in my diary that they all need to go and

507
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 18: get some help psychological oil. The timeline has always been

508
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 18: that Andrew believes that they came straight to him that

509
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 18: day after she disappeared.

510
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 12: Well, that's not true. They were in my birthstep. I no,

511
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 12: they were.

512
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 18: And he went running to the car and came back,

513
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 18: and he brought out a piece of paper which was

514
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 18: just a fool's cap page of writing, and he showed

515
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 18: it to us and I started reading it, and I

516
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 18: think I only read about one or two paragraphs, and

517
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 18: I said, so what this is just talking about an

518
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 18: old dream or something about our past.

519
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 12: She was talking about my grandmother, my maternal grandmother.

520
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 15: It wasn't of any relevance, but he was trying to

521
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 15: continuate that she lost her mind.

522
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 4: I think, Megan, I'm.

523
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: Just trying to fill in some of the gaps in

524
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 1: that timeline.

525
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 4: And the timeline is always.

526
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: So important, absolutely, But your statement describes getting a contact

527
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: from him on the twenty fourth of May ask him

528
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 1: if he could come and stay with the kids the

529
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: following day, the twenty fifth of May.

530
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 12: Is that's what's written in my diary, and of.

531
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: Course Bromman disappears on the sixteenth of May, so she

532
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: disappears nine days prior.

533
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 4: To his arrival on your doorstep.

534
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 18: And I'm just no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

535
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 18: no no, that's just where it's all wrong.

536
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: Until now. You heard a very different story about John's movements.

537
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: On the morning of Monday, May seventeen, and according to

538
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: the better known version, John drove from Lennox Head with

539
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: his two daughters and the dog to his daughter Jody's workplace,

540
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: a hair salon called Intercuts in the sutherland Shire and

541
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: then to his former wife Jenny's house, where John spoke

542
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: to her mother in law, Joan Mason, mid morning on

543
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: May seventeen. In Meighan's first statement to police in August

544
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight and signed by her in the presence

545
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: of her parents and the detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor, Meghan

546
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: commits to several events from May nineteen ninety three. In

547
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: that first statement by her, Meghan says that on May

548
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: twenty two, nineteen ninety three, she learned that Bromman was missing,

549
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: and she says that on May twenty four, John called.

550
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 4: Her to ask if he and the.

551
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: Girls could come and stay the following evening May twenty five.

552
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: That would make sense as John would have been able

553
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: to make a brief detour north of Sydney on his

554
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: drive back to Lennox Head. Megan says that her first

555
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: belief statement, the one witnessed by Glen Taylor in nineteen

556
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: ninety eight, is wrong. She says it's wrong because it

557
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: omits reference to what Meghan insists was John's visit to

558
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: her house on the morning of Monday May seventeen, nineteen

559
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: ninety three. Meghan says that her personal life was in

560
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: turmoil when she was with her parents and giving her

561
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: statement in nineteen ninety eight to Glen Taylor. Meghan's marriage

562
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: to her husband Perry had recently ended. She says there

563
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: is a big hole in her nineteen ninety eight statement.

564
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 18: Gwent Taylor changed out and he speaks my mother and

565
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 18: father and myself at my parents' house at that stage,

566
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 18: I was in the middle of Supreme Court, was my

567
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 18: ex husbin, my mother in law was SEENI from me

568
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 18: and dollars was not pretty. But I remembered clearly when

569
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 18: they arrived and how they arrived.

570
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 15: Because I've always maintained that they showed up and they

571
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 15: driven all night from the night before, and that was

572
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 15: a Sunday night.

573
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 12: They had no.

574
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 15: Clothing than what they were wearing, which which pajamas. I

575
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 15: am telling you they showed up that morning in that state.

576
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 15: He arrived at my house on the morning of the seventeenth.

577
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 4: That's not what you say in your statement.

578
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 12: No, they didn't ask me that.

579
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 4: But that can't be right, can it.

580
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:20,399
Speaker 12: No, I'd cheat my life.

581
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 4: It's just so odd that the statement is so.

582
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 12: Wrong that I never really got to tell anybody anything.

583
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 18: It was in my diary that I gave them, but

584
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 18: the police have lost that page was written in there

585
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 18: and they took it apart in the.

586
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 4: Setday of twenty second.

587
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: You've got to note your diary that has found out

588
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: bron gone.

589
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 12: That's when Andrew had told me that she was.

590
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: Missing from the twenty fourth of May, which is a Monday.

591
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: In your diary, you write John rang asked if he

592
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: and kids can come tomorrow and stay.

593
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 12: Yeah, that's right.

594
00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 1: In her nineteen ninety eight statement, Megan ads John told.

595
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 19: Me that Bromwin had gone off for some guy in

596
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,240
Speaker 19: a car. He said that she was due back home

597
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,399
Speaker 19: in Lonockshead in a few days. At that time, John

598
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 19: was a shaking, crying mess. I'd never seen him like

599
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 19: this before, and I can't explain his behavior. He put

600
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 19: it across that he was upset because Bromwin had taken.

601
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 12: Off for some man.

602
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:25,720
Speaker 1: Meghan now says that those things happened, but she also

603
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: insists that that was John's second visit to her home

604
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: in May, and that his first visit was on the

605
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: morning of Monday, May seventeenth.

606
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:37,720
Speaker 12: He came back twice today.

607
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: But if true, why isn't that in Meghan's original nineteen

608
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 1: ninety eight statement.

609
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 4: I asked her about.

610
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 12: This, Andrew was the point of contract from the trash.

611
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 18: He never even spoked me about what happened. The police

612
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 18: only heard she shouted a story and they never listened

613
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 18: to me. And Andrew apparently told him that I have ADHD,

614
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 18: that I was from medication.

615
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 12: Iogy certain the rest of it was, ever, not tradition

616
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 12: to we.

617
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: Maddie Walsh and I have spent a lot of time

618
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:16,720
Speaker 1: talking about her Auntie Meghan's disclosures. In our view, Andy

619
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: has tried to manage his cousin Meghan, and Andy even

620
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: told police in nineteen ninety three to treat her with caution.

621
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: He asked that she'd be taken out of the investigation's

622
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:33,359
Speaker 1: information loop. Meghan's claims that she was not listened to

623
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 1: back then in nineteen ninety three are of course credible.

624
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 1: But five years later, when Meghan gave a statement to

625
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: Glen Taylor, she was being listened to. Andy was not

626
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: at Meghan's parents' house when Glen Taylor typed up the

627
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,919
Speaker 1: details and Meghan signed her statement in August nineteen ninety eight.

628
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: Nowhere in that statement does Meghan suggests John visited her

629
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: on Monday in May seventeenth, nineteen ninety three. You'll recall

630
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 1: that at the inquest in two thousand and two, Meghan

631
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:13,280
Speaker 1: was subjected to some torrid cross examination by John Winfield's lawyer,

632
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett. Her credibility and truthfulness were directly challenged.

633
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 5: Now, what I'm suggesting to you is that, for some

634
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 5: reason best known to you, in the witness box today

635
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 5: you are embellishing. You are to use the vernacular being

636
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 5: a drama queen. Now I want to give you an

637
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 5: opportunity to address that allegation. This morning, you said on

638
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 5: oath that Bronwan told you on a number of occasions

639
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 5: that John would kill her if she made a claim

640
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 5: on the house. Nor in your written statement have you

641
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 5: said that.

642
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:49,439
Speaker 4: Why?

643
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 12: Well, I don't know.

644
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 15: I sat down with the police and I told them

645
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 15: what I thought at the time.

646
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 5: There's nothing in your diary is that thing?

647
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 12: Does there have to be?

648
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: The inquest heard that some of Meghan's diary entries were

649
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 1: made some time after the events which were being described,

650
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 1: so they were not being made contemporaneously. In oral evidence

651
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: at the inquest, Meghan did not suggest that John had

652
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 1: turned up at her house on the morning of Monday

653
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: May seventeen. At the inquest, Meghan broadly repeated what she

654
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 1: had said in her nineteen ninety eight statement to the

655
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 1: detective Glenn Taylor. But when George Radmore was running the

656
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 1: Unsolved Homicide Unit's cold case reinvestigation from two thousand and nine,

657
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,720
Speaker 1: Meghan went down a different route and.

658
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 12: That changed everything.

659
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 18: And that's why George spent so much time with me.

660
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 18: They didn't even realize that he had been to me.

661
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 18: She in the morning.

662
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 20: Nobody realized thath and I was told by George Radmore

663
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 20: that they actually did the drive from his place to

664
00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 20: my house in time mar next to the John and

665
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 20: the hour, so she he was brilliant.

666
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 1: In another more recent conversation which I had with Megan,

667
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 1: she added.

668
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 15: I hadn't even told George after he interviewed me, oh jeez,

669
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 15: dozens of times, dozens of times for hours on end

670
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 15: about that first stay that they came down, until Crystal

671
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 15: was with me when I went in to sign my

672
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 15: statement and he said, oh my god, why didn't you

673
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 15: tell me? And I said, well, I kind of did,

674
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 15: but in my adhd brain unless I've got the dates

675
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 15: in front of me. I'm apparently a very scattered historian,

676
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 15: but I know what happened and when they happened in

677
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 15: my mind, but I couldn't put your date to it.

678
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 15: Crystal at that point in time, told George that that

679
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 15: was true.

680
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 12: She remembered it.

681
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: Megan showed me an email from George Radmore, who assured

682
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: her that her contributions were necessary.

683
00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,240
Speaker 13: To get the full picture. Already, you have provided everyents

684
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 13: that I previously did not know existed, and it's very

685
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,240
Speaker 13: important to the investigation. It would certainly have been easier

686
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 13: if your statement had been taken in more detail during

687
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 13: the investigations. However, we cannot change that now.

688
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 15: I just wish Perry would come out my ex husband

689
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 15: and back me up.

690
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 1: I asked Maddie Walsh to sit with Megan as she

691
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 1: read from the twenty page statement which George Radmore took

692
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 1: from Megan in two thousand and nine.

693
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 15: I recall that around the time of the separation that

694
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 15: Bromin was seeking money as a retainer for a solicitor

695
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 15: to act on her behalf. I received a phone call

696
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 15: from my mother, Leah Reid, informing me that Bromin had

697
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 15: rung and asked her for money. Mum told me that

698
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 15: it was for the retainer for the solicitor during his

699
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,720
Speaker 15: phone call. I remember the amount being three thousand dollars

700
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 15: Brown asked for, but I could be wrong about the amount.

701
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 15: I ran Bromwin after this phone call from Mum and

702
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 15: I spoke to her about the call. Brown was upset

703
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 15: and angry that Mo and Dad would not give her

704
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 15: the money. She was crying on the phone during this

705
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 15: call and was venting about their decision.

706
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: Meghan says in the two thousand and nine statement that

707
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 1: the next time she recalled talking to Bromwin, she had

708
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: found a way to retain the solicitor, and that he

709
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: had told her she could move back into the house

710
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 1: and he would organize a restraining order to keep John

711
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:30,280
Speaker 1: at a distance. Meghan says in the statement that shortly

712
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 1: before Broman's disappearance.

713
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 15: There were times when I would bring John specifically to

714
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,800
Speaker 15: find that information for Bromwin, and John was asking me

715
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,240
Speaker 15: to find that information on Bromwn for him. My loyalty

716
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 15: was to Bromwin, and I was not tell him things

717
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 15: about Bromwin that she did not want him to know.

718
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 1: Maddie remains fond of her auntie Meghan, but Maddie checks

719
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 1: and sometimes challenges Meghan's disclosures, particularly in relation to Bromman's case.

720
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: What's your position on Megan's assertions about this Monday morning,

721
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 1: seventeenth of May visit by John to her house.

722
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 21: This was not something she brought up in her original

723
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 21: witness statement that was taken in nineteen ninety eight by

724
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 21: Glenn Taylor. This is something that she brought up many

725
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 21: years later, in around two thousand and nine twenty ten

726
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 21: with George Radmore. It never got brought up before, and

727
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 21: it suddenly made its appearance around two thousand and nine

728
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:59,760
Speaker 21: and twenty ten and no one else can remember this happening.

729
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 7: Didn't say that he ever stopped by there, and I

730
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 7: feel like it.

731
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 21: Would be a really important stepping stone in his timeline

732
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 21: had it actually occurred, because that would determine what time

733
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,839
Speaker 21: he actually left, because that would have been his first

734
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 21: stop when coming through Sydney. It was just almost impossible

735
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 21: that John showed up on her doorstep the morning of

736
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 21: the seventeenth of May.

737
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,800
Speaker 1: Do you think that Megan is going to be unhappy

738
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: with you again for disagreeing with her evidence.

739
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 21: Yes, this is something that we've gone back and forth

740
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 21: on when she first told me her recollections and when

741
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 21: I first read all the witness statements at hand, and

742
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 21: I had doubts from the very beginning. I think she's

743
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 21: just misrecalled, and I think the best bet is to

744
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 21: go off her witness statement from nineteen ninety eight and

745
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,439
Speaker 21: not the one that she redid to her. It's such

746
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,959
Speaker 21: an important recollection. I don't know why it was brought

747
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 21: up so much later. Not sure whether she heard other

748
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 21: people's recollections and read other people's witness statements and then

749
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 21: somehow managed to conjure up a version that she felt happened.

750
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 21: So It's definitely been a massive back and forth with

751
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 21: Meghan and I for a very long time about her

752
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 21: recollection of events, and it is a touchy subject. But

753
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 21: I have to stand by the other evidence and everything

754
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 21: other people have said and kind of come to my

755
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 21: own conclusion and not be biased and go, well, you're

756
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 21: my aunt, and that just means I'm going to believe

757
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 21: you with what you say here. But I just can't.

758
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 21: It doesn't work. It's not possible. In my mind, there's

759
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 21: no way that it could have happened.

760
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 1: Maddie reached out to Megan's former husband to ask him what,

761
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 1: if anything, he wouldcalled about John's purported visit.

762
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 21: I called Perry because Meghan said that Perry was having

763
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 21: selective amnesia where he's not remembering because he doesn't want

764
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 21: to support her. I asked him, in terms of helping

765
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 21: Bromwin's case, can you recall if John showed up with

766
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 21: the girls one morning in May? And he said that

767
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 21: he did not recall John showing up on their doorstep

768
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 21: early in the morning. My mum also states that he's

769
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 21: not the type of person to, out of hate or

770
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 21: out of a grudge, not tell the truth.

771
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 7: And I believe her with that.

772
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 21: My grandma says the same thing, and I don't believe

773
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 21: he would hold important information back if it meant determining

774
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,839
Speaker 21: a timeline and things like that. He has said time

775
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 21: and time again, I don't remember this happening. I don't

776
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 21: think it'd be something easy to forget either. He was

777
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 21: the only one that could back her up in terms

778
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 21: of whether John came to her house the morning of

779
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 21: the seventeenth. John going to one of Bromwin's relatives plays

780
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 21: as his first stop on his way through to Sydney.

781
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,919
Speaker 21: To me seems un because their first question would be

782
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 21: where's Bromwin.

783
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 1: I don't understand how it wasn't in her original statement

784
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 1: if it happened.

785
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 7: Yeah, I agree.

786
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 21: It seems like such a harring thing to witness, and

787
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 21: what she remembers from it, it seems so vivid. I

788
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 21: would think that would be one of the first things

789
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:23,919
Speaker 21: she would have told Glenn Taylor. It's just very hard

790
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:26,760
Speaker 21: to believe that it did occur, and it's a pretty

791
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 21: common thing that we witnessed with her where she remembers

792
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 21: things differently. She told me that she went outside and

793
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 21: saw in the boot of his car.

794
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 7: She was like, and she wasn't in there.

795
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 1: Megan was saying that Bromman's body was not in the

796
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 1: boot of John's Ford Falcon on the morning of Monday,

797
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 1: May seventeen.

798
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 21: And I was like, well, that's because you're remembering a

799
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 21: different time. She told me that, like overtext.

800
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:52,280
Speaker 4: That's a big call.

801
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:54,879
Speaker 21: She was like, oh yeah, but I like, I also

802
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 21: saw into the boot of his car and there was

803
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 21: nothing in there. She said, I never thought she was

804
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 21: at Illawong because she saw into the boot of that

805
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,359
Speaker 21: car that morning and there was nothing in there.

806
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 7: Island, What where did this come from? You have never

807
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 7: once said that.

808
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 1: In her two thousand and nine statement, Meghan does not

809
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,919
Speaker 1: suggest that she could see in the boot. She indicates

810
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 1: the opposite.

811
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 15: While we were sitting at the table, John jumped up

812
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 15: and said something similar to wait, there's something I've got

813
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,359
Speaker 15: to show you and send the boot. He then ran,

814
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 15: not walked out to his car, which was parked outside

815
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 15: the house. I didn't follow him out, but just sat

816
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,280
Speaker 15: at the table with Perry, and I didn't see whether

817
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 15: or not he actually went to the boot of the car.

818
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 15: He came back in with a notepad of mind paper

819
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 15: with what I recognized if bron was writing on the notepad.

820
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 15: John was trying to make out like the writing was

821
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 15: evidence of Bron and losing her mind.

822
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 1: Meghan says in this statement in two thousand and nine

823
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,919
Speaker 1: that John stayed for less than half an hour. When

824
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:02,439
Speaker 1: George Radmore asked her why there was no diary entry

825
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 1: about John having turned up, Meghan replied that the page

826
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: was missing, adding that it was likely she didn't make

827
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: any entry that day. Meghan told George Radmore that in

828
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 1: the weeks and months following Bromman's disappearance.

829
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,720
Speaker 15: I continue to speak to John reagularly. Over this time,

830
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 15: I was indicating that I was a friend to him

831
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 15: to keep the information coming. Although I believed that he

832
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 15: had done something to Bromwin at that time, I had

833
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 15: adopted to keep your enemy's close theory with my relationship

834
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,720
Speaker 15: with John after Bromen's disappearance. Our relationship was quite cordial

835
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 15: during this period, and I think that he trusted me

836
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 15: and he believed that I was on his side to

837
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 15: some extent during this period, even though that was not

838
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 15: the true situation. I had maintained this facade since their separation,

839
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 15: so it was not unusual that I would continue to

840
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 15: be his friend and have sympathy for him after Bromwan's disappearance.

841
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 15: I was never giving John information about the investigation, all

842
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 15: assisting him in any way to thwart the investigation. John

843
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:07,399
Speaker 15: was staying away from both Andrew and my parents during

844
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 15: this phase, and he was using me as a conduct

845
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 15: to the Reed family because I was being friendly to

846
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 15: him and not challenging his version of how Bronwyn disappeared.

847
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 15: John was under a great deal of pressure at this

848
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 15: period due to the suspicions of Andrew and Michelle Reid

849
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 15: in particular, and the police investigation. I knew John was

850
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 15: under pressure because of the phone calls that I had

851
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 15: with John and from what Andrew was telling me about

852
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 15: his own conversations with Joss Andy.

853
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 1: One of the statements George Radmore talk during his cold

854
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: case investigation in two thousand and nine was from Megan Reid,

855
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 1: and in that statement, Meghan claims that on the morning

856
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:55,760
Speaker 1: of Monday, May seventeen, John Winfield went to her house

857
00:49:56,440 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: with the two girls and the dog. And that's very

858
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 1: different to what Meghan said at the inquest and what

859
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: she said in her original nineteen ninety eight statement. Do

860
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 1: you have a view about the accuracy of Meghan's claim

861
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,800
Speaker 1: in relation to John. Her husband Perry.

862
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:20,799
Speaker 11: He has told Maddie numerous times it didn't happen. And

863
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:24,439
Speaker 11: I don't know for the life of me why she's

864
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 11: off on this tangent. If you read her statement that

865
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 11: she redid with Radmore, she spent over twenty hours with

866
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 11: the bloke doing it. She had five cracks out of it.

867
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,439
Speaker 11: They had five meetings to take a statement. I don't

868
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 11: know how anything in that second statement could be deemed

869
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 11: as accurate Fairy Chiles.

870
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 1: It's not in her two thousand and nine statement. But

871
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 1: Meghan has told Maddie that on that morning Monday, May seventeen,

872
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: Meghan looked in the boot and Rommin was not in

873
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:58,319
Speaker 1: the boot. And Maddie has said, Megan, you've got your

874
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 1: date wrong. You didn't see John on that Monday morning.

875
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 1: When you did see John, there wouldn't have been anything

876
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 1: in the boot.

877
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 4: Yes.

878
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 1: Is this troubling for you that a member of the

879
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 1: Reed family. Of course it is, But what's it about?

880
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 1: What relevance?

881
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 11: And she wants to go down this path?

882
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: Unbelievable, unbelievable.

883
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 21: She has mentioned to me a lot that detectives say

884
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 21: to her, and people say to her that she is

885
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 21: the most important witness, and people are trying to just

886
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 21: credit her because they're jealous of how important she is

887
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 21: in the case.

888
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:35,360
Speaker 7: And I do have to bite my tongue.

889
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 1: Have you sometimes wondered whether Megan says things to make

890
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,280
Speaker 1: her own role more relevant?

891
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 21: Yes, whether she wants to be the hero or whether

892
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:50,760
Speaker 21: she wants to be the victim, it doesn't matter.

893
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:53,320
Speaker 7: But you'll never hear the same story.

894
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 1: Twice Michelle Reid sat down and did a second statement.

895
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 1: During the Unsolved Homicide Units two thousand and nine investigation.

896
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 3: George Radmore came to our house and we spent one

897
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 3: whole day here and he went through everything where a

898
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 3: fine tooth comb.

899
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 1: I asked her to read some of it for this episode.

900
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 3: At no stage during any phone calls that I have

901
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 3: with Bromwin did she ever tell me about any new

902
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 3: relationship or any romantic interests following the separation with John.

903
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 3: Relationship wise, she only ever talked to me about the

904
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 3: kids and John, and also mentioned her friends from playgroup.

905
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 12: And her neighbor Debbie. I don't know whether or not

906
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 12: Bromwin would.

907
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 3: Have told me about going out on a date or

908
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 3: meeting someone, but there's no reason why she wouldn't have

909
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 3: told me. Bromwin's concerns for Cristal and what would happen

910
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,799
Speaker 3: to Cristel if anything happened to her were paramount in

911
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:54,319
Speaker 3: her mind. She did not go into specifics about what

912
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,760
Speaker 3: she thought may happen to Christal, but it was clear

913
00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:00,360
Speaker 3: that she was highly concerned about her welfare. Told me

914
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:04,400
Speaker 3: during one of our phone conversations following her separation that

915
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 3: she had been to a solicitor, in fact two solicitors,

916
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 3: and she was intending to seek custody of both Krystal

917
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:14,400
Speaker 3: and Lauren. I remember her telling me that a solicitor

918
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 3: had sent a letter on her behalf to John where

919
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 3: he was staying at Illawong, which outlined what she wanted

920
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 3: from the custody and property settlement. Certainly a main objective

921
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 3: from the separation and pending divorce was the custody of

922
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 3: the kids.

923
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 1: Michelle raised a few things that were not in her

924
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,360
Speaker 1: original nineteen ninety eight statement.

925
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 3: I now recall him telling me that he was at

926
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 3: Jody's place when he rang and found out that Bromen

927
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:40,320
Speaker 3: had moved.

928
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 7: Back into the house.

929
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:44,280
Speaker 3: It is clear to me that John's intention in returning

930
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:47,400
Speaker 3: to Lennox said was to reclaim the house that Bromin

931
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:49,840
Speaker 3: had just moved back into.

932
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 1: Michelle's statement then touched on some new evidence. When she

933
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: was a witness at the inquest. Michelle said that when

934
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 1: John had turned up at her home without warning late

935
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 1: on the afternoon of Monday, May seventeen, he told her

936
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 1: that he had to wait.

937
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 3: For the Motor Registry to open to register the car.

938
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:14,759
Speaker 3: I clearly recall him saying this, and I am one

939
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 3: hundred percent certain that he told me this. I have

940
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 3: never known until today, when told by Detective Radmore that

941
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:25,279
Speaker 3: the payment for the registration of the car was not

942
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 3: made until three seven pm. I know that I did

943
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 3: see the notepad containing writings of Bromen at some time

944
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 3: while he was in Sydney. I seem to recall him

945
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:38,359
Speaker 3: showing it to both Andrew and I. I recall him

946
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:40,920
Speaker 3: specifically pointing out the section at the end where she

947
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 3: writes about having a break. John was trying to use

948
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 3: this as evidence of Bromin's intention to go away on

949
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 3: a holiday, as he had told us. I was not

950
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,280
Speaker 3: convinced of this, and she also had written down plans

951
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 3: for the coming week on other pages. If Bromwin had

952
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 3: been planning to go away, I'm certain that Andrew and

953
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:03,279
Speaker 3: I would have known about it. John was definitely agitated

954
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 3: when he arrived at our house on Monday the seventeenth

955
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 3: of May, different to what I had ever seen him before.

956
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 12: He wouldn't really look at me.

957
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 3: I think that he could tell Andrew and I did

958
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 3: not believe that Bromwin would have left the kids and

959
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 3: gone on a break in the manner that he had described.

960
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 3: I have kept some notes of various things that have

961
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 3: happened during the time subsequent to Brohman's disappearance. I gave

962
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 3: these notes to Detective Sergeant Radmore on the twenty first

963
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 3: of July two thousand and nine during a meeting at

964
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 3: our house.

965
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:38,760
Speaker 1: I have seen a document which George Radmore wrote during

966
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:42,799
Speaker 1: his investigation, with its clear focus on John as an

967
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:46,960
Speaker 1: alleged killer who had somehow got away with it.

968
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 13: It is clear that Jonathan knew that Bronwin was back

969
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 13: in the house. He immediately made plans to fly home

970
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:57,360
Speaker 13: with all his belongings. This indicates that he intended to

971
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 13: stay for an extended period and not return immediately or

972
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 13: even within a short time frame. Police will allege that

973
00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 13: his intention was to return and reclaim the house when

974
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:14,879
Speaker 13: Bronwin refused to leave, and even may have threatened him

975
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 13: with a restraining order to keep him away from the house.

976
00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 13: Jonathan has lost control and fatally injured Bronwin in some way.

977
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 13: I believe that there is sufficient evidence to clearly establish

978
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:32,839
Speaker 13: the financial impact of losing the house and the occupancy

979
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 13: of the house as the motive for Bronwin's murder. Every

980
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:41,919
Speaker 13: person has a right to silence, and as frustrating as

981
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 13: this is, we cannot force him to answer questions. I

982
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:49,960
Speaker 13: believe that it is unlikely that he will ever agree

983
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:51,240
Speaker 13: to a formal interview.

984
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,440
Speaker 1: The senior detective at the time turned his mind to

985
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 1: John's unusual decision to leave his children with his former

986
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 1: wife's mother in law at a house in the Shire

987
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 1: around mid morning Monday, May seventeenth, nineteen ninety three.

988
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 13: There is no logical reason for doing this, and it

989
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,640
Speaker 13: indicates a desperation to get rid of the kids for

990
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 13: approximately four to five hours. Winfield is the only person

991
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 13: who can explain this, but he is unwilling to do so.

992
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 1: George Radmore and his detectives did not know then about

993
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 1: the suspicious circumstances which have led us to suspect the

994
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 1: building site at Illawong in the Shire. Turning to missing

995
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:40,480
Speaker 1: documents in the case, he told Michelle and Andy.

996
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 13: We have searched everywhere possible for the case file where

997
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 13: the original running sheets and investigation records were stored. This

998
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:52,440
Speaker 13: has not been located, and I believe that it is

999
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 13: unlikely that the records will be found. A number of

1000
00:57:56,320 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 13: the running sheets were produced at the inquest. We have

1001
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:04,400
Speaker 13: copies of these documents. They have been reviewed and all

1002
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 13: relevant matters investigated. Bronwyn states in her writings on the

1003
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 13: notepad that she suffered postnatal depression after Lauren's birth. However,

1004
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 13: this is the only potentially valid reference to any form

1005
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 13: of mental illness. All her medical records have been checked

1006
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 13: and there is no mention anywhere of such an illness.

1007
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 13: There is ample evidence that Jonathan Winfield was spreading the

1008
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:35,760
Speaker 13: mental illness theory to explain her disappearance, but this does

1009
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 13: not hold water. I agree with the proposition that the

1010
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 13: original investigation was not conducted thoroughly enough at the time. However,

1011
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 13: this is easy to say in hindsight and it serves

1012
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 13: no real current purpose to be critical of the original investigators.

1013
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:54,200
Speaker 13: All that I can personally promise is that the Northern

1014
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:58,640
Speaker 13: Region Unsolved Homicide Team will investigate this case as far

1015
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 13: as reasonably possible and make ourselves available to you to

1016
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 13: answer any concerns or issues that you may have. We

1017
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 13: will apply modern investigative techniques and utilize a full range

1018
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 13: of resources that are deemed appropriate in an attempt to

1019
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 13: achieve a final result in this matter.

1020
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 1: But Lina remained reluctant to talk to detectives during George

1021
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:22,960
Speaker 1: Radmore's investigations.

1022
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 13: We believe that she has significant evidence to provide, However,

1023
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 13: she is unwilling to do so.

1024
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:34,400
Speaker 1: He is Lena's former neighbor and friend, Marilyn Hannigan. Again,

1025
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 1: that was.

1026
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 14: One thing that the last detective that rang said. He

1027
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 14: said Lena wouldn't tell us anything.

1028
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 1: Days before the Bromwin podcast series launched in May twenty

1029
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:51,720
Speaker 1: twenty four, Michelle and Andy met detectives who oversaw a

1030
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:56,560
Speaker 1: recent review of Broman's case. Andy urged those detectives to

1031
00:59:56,680 --> 01:00:02,160
Speaker 1: try Lena again, fifteen years after George Radmore's ill fated attempts.

1032
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:07,680
Speaker 3: We asked them to find her and interview her because

1033
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 3: we believe she had vital information. There was a female

1034
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 3: police officer who quickly said, if someone doesn't want to

1035
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:20,080
Speaker 3: talk to us, we can't make them. And I suppose

1036
01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 3: they're protecting that woman because she's scared, pretty sad. Isn't

1037
01:00:24,280 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 3: it many women out there who are in the same boat.

1038
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 3: We can only appeal to her to talk to the police,

1039
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:35,160
Speaker 3: and if she does, she does, and if she doesn't, well,

1040
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:39,320
Speaker 3: I would understand, but I'd like to think she might.

1041
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 1: Lena has asked me to pass on a message to

1042
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:48,600
Speaker 1: Andy and Michelle and to John's children. She has listened

1043
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:53,360
Speaker 1: to every episode of the Bromin podcast series. Lina said

1044
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:56,720
Speaker 1: that she looked forward to the day that Brommin's case

1045
01:00:56,840 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 1: would be solved. I asked her if she was like

1046
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 1: to be interviewed for an upcoming episode. She considered it

1047
01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 1: and then politely declined. Lena is fearful of possible consequences.

1048
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:15,000
Speaker 1: Lena told me that she had not heard from any

1049
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 1: detectives since the Radmore investigation in two thousand and nine

1050
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:23,840
Speaker 1: and twenty ten. Andy, we know from a police statement

1051
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 1: that was given to us that they went back to

1052
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:32,880
Speaker 1: the DPP twice at the time of George Radmore's investigation

1053
01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 1: and soon after it had culminated.

1054
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 12: Yes, that's correct.

1055
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 1: What's your understanding of the outcome of George Radmore's investigation.

1056
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 11: Yeah, well, I believe that George's investigation was very farer

1057
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:52,280
Speaker 11: and again it was not backed by the DPP. I

1058
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 11: said that it was insufficient evidence.

1059
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:13,440
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as

1060
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:18,240
Speaker 1: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information

1061
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me

1062
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:28,760
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.

1063
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:32,400
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a

1064
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:36,920
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bronwyn

1065
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:43,200
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.

1066
01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:48,360
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,

1067
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:54,440
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,

1068
01:02:54,720 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen, Matthew Condon, Karina Verger and David Mary,

1069
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 1: with assistance from Isaac Iron's. Audio production for this podcast

1070
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:09,080
Speaker 1: series is by Wasabi Wudeo and original theme music by

1071
01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:13,160
Speaker 1: Slade Gibson. We have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a

1072
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:17,160
Speaker 1: relation of Bromwin Winfield. We can only do this kind

1073
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:20,520
Speaker 1: of journalism with the support of our subscribers and our

1074
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:26,560
Speaker 1: major sponsors like Harvey Norman. For all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps,

1075
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:31,480
Speaker 1: timelines and documents about this podcast and other podcasts including

1076
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:35,920
Speaker 1: The Teacher's Pet, The Teachers Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy's Story,

1077
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:40,240
Speaker 1: Shandy's Legacy and The Night Driver. Go to the Australian

1078
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:45,240
Speaker 1: dot com dot au and subscribe