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Speaker 1: Let's talk about docs, guys, and particularly the Milky Way,

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Speaker 1: because I'm fascinated in the story. Today Australians need to

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Speaker 1: be in the dock to have a look at the

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Speaker 1: Milky Way. Astrophysicists and Australian National UNI doctor Brad Tucker

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Speaker 1: on the line, Brad, good morning.

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Speaker 2: How's it going all right?

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Speaker 1: Thank you? The Milky Way. We're losing it in our cities,

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Speaker 1: aren't we.

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Speaker 2: We are you know, as we have more and more people,

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Speaker 2: city lights, those sorts of things, our ability to see

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Speaker 2: the Milky Way is definitely decreasing. We're losing that connection

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Speaker 2: to you know, essentially our home right our our home galaxy,

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Speaker 2: our home space and speak. And it's kind of, as

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Speaker 2: you know, it's somewhat sad because it's a very special

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Speaker 2: thing to be able to see. And you know, Australia,

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Speaker 2: being you know, relatively large country and relatively not that

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Speaker 2: many people, has a fairly high density of people who

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Speaker 2: can't see it because the way we live and have

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Speaker 2: set up our cities.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Indeed, so, I mean we've got dark skies here

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Speaker 1: in South Australia, including dark sky regions down around the

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Speaker 1: murray Bridge and Manam area, but you've just got to

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Speaker 1: get out of the city. I suppose to have a

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Speaker 1: good look at it, somewhere reasonably dark and preferably the

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Speaker 1: outback is ideal and extremely good out there, but in

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Speaker 1: the city pretty much forget about it exactly.

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Speaker 2: That's right. You know, we're lucky that we can still

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Speaker 2: go to places and be able to see it, and

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Speaker 2: generally not that far. You take places like the US

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Speaker 2: or Europe, you know, large lofts of it, can't even

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Speaker 2: see it. In fact, there's something like two billion people

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Speaker 2: across the world who cannot see the Milky Way anymore

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Speaker 2: or have never been able really to see the Milky Way,

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Speaker 2: and we're slowly losing that ability. You know, as cities grow,

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Speaker 2: you have to go further and further away and more remote.

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Speaker 2: But there are also ways that we can design, operate

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Speaker 2: and do things to still keep lighting on the ground

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Speaker 2: where we need it, but also reduce light pollution and

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Speaker 2: therefore increase our ability to see the Milky Way.

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Speaker 1: Are things like starlink of the Elon musk Wi Fi network,

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Speaker 1: asteroids zooming across the the skies spoiling that to some degree.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, the satellites are a completely other

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Speaker 2: interesting one. You know, we have gone there's some parts

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Speaker 2: about twelve thousand satellites now in orbit only, you know,

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Speaker 2: not even six years ago that was four or five thousand,

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Speaker 2: you know, And all those little lights as we see them,

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Speaker 2: they're sometimes fantastic to look at. But in the early

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Speaker 2: evening or late morning, you know, before sunrises, all you

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Speaker 2: can see someplaces is just satellites. So it's a very

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Speaker 2: different form of interaction and light pollution as well. So

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Speaker 2: some of these things are maybe not as apparent as

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Speaker 2: we want, one may think. But as we have more

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Speaker 2: fair seeing these interferences and our ability to connect with

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Speaker 2: these places, I eat, space in the milky Way is

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Speaker 2: slowly being chipped away at.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how do we control light pollution? Because obviously in

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Speaker 1: a city you need light, got to have light for

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Speaker 1: safety and all sorts of different reasons. So how do

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Speaker 1: we get around that problem?

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Speaker 2: So some of it is simple. You know. The problem

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Speaker 2: with light pollution, right is if light is going up

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Speaker 2: into the sky, where is it not going to the

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Speaker 2: ground where we want it? Right? And a lot of

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Speaker 2: the measures of controlling light pollution are actually no more

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Speaker 2: expensive or different than anything making sure lights don't have

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Speaker 2: what we call upwards spill, So either having a shield

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Speaker 2: so the light that may go up gets reflected back down,

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Speaker 2: or limiting it so it's flat so it only goes down.

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Speaker 2: That means light's going to the ground where we want

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Speaker 2: for driving in safety and all those sorts of reasons

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Speaker 2: and not going into the sky. Color is a really

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Speaker 2: big one as well. If you ever notice, some people's

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Speaker 2: bones or tablets have a night time version where the

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Speaker 2: color becomes a little bit redder on your screen, and

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Speaker 2: that's to help with our eyehelps because blue light is

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Speaker 2: very bright and damaging. It's the same with light pollution.

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Speaker 2: So you know when you go to the shops and

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Speaker 2: you're choosing a bulb and you need to decide is

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Speaker 2: that the cool white or the warm white? Choosing just

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Speaker 2: warm white actually reduces light pollution, is easier on the

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Speaker 2: eyes and also easier native animals that the other thing.

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Speaker 2: It affects it less. So some of these are simple

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Speaker 2: sensor lights as well. Right you know, you know always

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Speaker 2: need the light on. Sensor lights means that comes on

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Speaker 2: when you know someone or something is there when you

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Speaker 2: want it. So a lot of the answers to light

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Speaker 2: pollution exists with modern technology and are fairly straightforward. It's

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Speaker 2: more just thinking an awareness of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I suppose. I don't know if anyone's done

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Speaker 1: the figures, but I suppose there'd be millions of people

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Speaker 1: right around the world who are born in a city,

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Speaker 1: maybe don't leave it for whatever reason, and have never

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Speaker 1: said the sky beyond a few bright stars.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you can, you can think of it.

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Speaker 2: That number is getting into the billions of Yeah, the

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Speaker 2: Northern Hemisphere, I mean there are large walls of people

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Speaker 2: where you can still dry for hours. Growing up in

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Speaker 2: California in the US, I never saw the Milky Way

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Speaker 2: till I moved to Australia or well, but before that

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Speaker 2: at Chile, you know, you just and you also and

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Speaker 2: part of the problem is you don't know what you

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Speaker 2: don't miss. Yeah, right, if you've never seen it, you

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Speaker 2: don't realize that you're missing it. And I think in Australia,

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Speaker 2: as you said, we're fortunate that we can go camping

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Speaker 2: to the bush the outback and be under a sea

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Speaker 2: of stars in the beautiful Milky Way, which is you know,

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Speaker 2: always breasttaking and that's what we love to connect to.

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Speaker 2: But yet there's lots of people around the world who

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Speaker 2: have never had that connection.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, indeed, that's that's quite sad, really, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It is, especially if you think about it, this has

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Speaker 2: only been in one hundred years that this has happened. Yeah, right,

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Speaker 2: Humans for thousands and tens of thousands of years have

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Speaker 2: been able to look up and connect, and in less

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Speaker 2: than a century a lot of people have lost that ability.

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Speaker 1: And it's taught us so much human stories around the galaxies,

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Speaker 1: around so much happening in the skies, people coming up

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Speaker 1: with fables and all sorts of dreen time obviously another

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Speaker 1: one where the sky meant so many different things to

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Speaker 1: different cultures, that's right.

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Speaker 2: And you know it's served as both the record of

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Speaker 2: the history, practical reasons for agriculture even and as you said,

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Speaker 2: also scientific observations where people have noticed and recorded changes

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Speaker 2: and then a night time sky with their own eyes.

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Speaker 2: And yet you know, something that we've been able to

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Speaker 2: do for the most part. He's said that that loss

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Speaker 2: of it is quite sad in some ways. And I

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Speaker 2: think this is the point and discussion of light pollution.

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Speaker 2: It's not to say, hey, let's kill off all the lights,

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Speaker 2: because he said we need it in the city, we

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Speaker 2: need it at our homes. But just taking simple measures

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Speaker 2: and choices can make a really big difference. And at

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Speaker 2: the end of the day, if we have less light pollution,

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Speaker 2: you're using less energy, which means you're saving money on

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Speaker 2: your power bills or the city saving money on its

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Speaker 2: power bills, and that's a win all around as well.

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Speaker 1: Indeed, Brad, appreciate your time. Thank you, no worries sakes.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Brad Tucker, astrophysicist, Australian National Union