1 00:00:05,921 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Approche Production. 2 00:00:13,121 --> 00:00:15,761 Speaker 2: Hello listeners to Real Crime with Adam Shanner. I want 3 00:00:15,761 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 2: to wish you a very safe and happy festive season. 4 00:00:19,081 --> 00:00:21,441 Speaker 2: We're going to be taking off over the Christmas break, 5 00:00:21,481 --> 00:00:22,881 Speaker 2: so I wanted to leave you with a couple of 6 00:00:23,481 --> 00:00:27,161 Speaker 2: excerpts from my favorite podcasts of twenty twenty five. I 7 00:00:27,201 --> 00:00:29,681 Speaker 2: hope you enjoy them, and I look forward to giving 8 00:00:29,681 --> 00:00:33,441 Speaker 2: you some new and excellent crime experiences on our podcast 9 00:00:33,521 --> 00:00:36,201 Speaker 2: in the new year. I'll talk to you then enjoy. 10 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:39,601 Speaker 2: At the same time, the people who are probably along 11 00:00:39,601 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 2: with you for the ride, enjoying that high lifestyle that 12 00:00:42,281 --> 00:00:46,480 Speaker 2: you're enjoying, they all disappear when you're in the jail 13 00:00:46,521 --> 00:00:49,241 Speaker 2: cell on your own and you realize you're sort of 14 00:00:49,241 --> 00:00:54,561 Speaker 2: friendless and that must be a very difficult moment personally, 15 00:00:55,001 --> 00:00:57,441 Speaker 2: and you're taking stock of your own personality and your 16 00:00:57,441 --> 00:01:01,361 Speaker 2: own choices. That's a moment most people don't face. What's 17 00:01:01,361 --> 00:01:01,721 Speaker 2: that like. 18 00:01:02,801 --> 00:01:06,681 Speaker 1: It's funny, you know, because a lot of people that were. 19 00:01:06,521 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 3: Around when I was gambling, I honestly would have thought 20 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,481 Speaker 3: that they would have been quite close friends, and I 21 00:01:12,521 --> 00:01:14,961 Speaker 3: wasn't under the impression that anything I could really do 22 00:01:15,481 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 3: would ever deter them from having a friendship with me. 23 00:01:18,801 --> 00:01:21,681 Speaker 3: But I was very wrong about that, and probably eighty 24 00:01:21,721 --> 00:01:23,721 Speaker 3: percent of the people that I was friends with prior 25 00:01:23,721 --> 00:01:24,241 Speaker 3: to going to. 26 00:01:24,241 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: Jail I no longer am. And there was definitely a 27 00:01:27,881 --> 00:01:29,121 Speaker 1: sense of anger at first. 28 00:01:29,441 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 3: But you know, I've had a lot of time to 29 00:01:31,601 --> 00:01:34,121 Speaker 3: reflect on that stuff, obviously from where I was, and 30 00:01:34,521 --> 00:01:38,521 Speaker 3: I think that to me, that's a bonus now to 31 00:01:38,601 --> 00:01:41,761 Speaker 3: live life without those people and to not have them 32 00:01:41,801 --> 00:01:45,521 Speaker 3: within my circle, if you like, because I think certainly 33 00:01:46,321 --> 00:01:48,921 Speaker 3: it's not that I believe that they're guilty by association, 34 00:01:49,761 --> 00:01:52,201 Speaker 3: but certainly they're around when there was all the trimmings 35 00:01:52,241 --> 00:01:55,841 Speaker 3: of what comes with being a gambler who wants to 36 00:01:55,841 --> 00:01:58,641 Speaker 3: spend his money on all sorts of different things, you know, 37 00:01:58,681 --> 00:02:01,241 Speaker 3: and there were people that would take advantage of that situation, 38 00:02:02,281 --> 00:02:06,281 Speaker 3: and you know, they're no longer around. To me, do 39 00:02:06,361 --> 00:02:09,041 Speaker 3: I look back on that and think where are they now? No, 40 00:02:09,161 --> 00:02:12,881 Speaker 3: not really, because I think that they're probably doing it 41 00:02:12,921 --> 00:02:16,441 Speaker 3: to someone else, or they're probably living a life that 42 00:02:17,321 --> 00:02:19,361 Speaker 3: you know, maybe they regret some of it as well, 43 00:02:19,561 --> 00:02:20,281 Speaker 3: i'd hope. 44 00:02:20,881 --> 00:02:23,241 Speaker 2: Well, I'm sure you were living in the eastern suburbs 45 00:02:23,281 --> 00:02:25,841 Speaker 2: of Sydney, where I also grew up as well, and 46 00:02:25,881 --> 00:02:28,641 Speaker 2: I understand the tribe of people that attach themselves to you, 47 00:02:29,041 --> 00:02:30,601 Speaker 2: and you can back it in that they would have 48 00:02:30,641 --> 00:02:34,041 Speaker 2: attached themselves to somebody else the next hot thing, and 49 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:38,641 Speaker 2: it is a soulless experience, and friendships are very tenuous. 50 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,401 Speaker 2: In jail, you met a different class of people. You 51 00:02:42,441 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 2: went to a private school in England, well educated. You know, 52 00:02:46,641 --> 00:02:48,761 Speaker 2: here you're meeting people with no chance in life who 53 00:02:48,761 --> 00:02:50,441 Speaker 2: are in there and this is going to be their 54 00:02:50,441 --> 00:02:53,121 Speaker 2: life career. Criminals, people who made some really dumb mistake. 55 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,881 Speaker 2: How did that impact you and give you, I guess 56 00:02:56,881 --> 00:02:59,921 Speaker 2: a sense of what you'd squandered in a way? 57 00:03:01,001 --> 00:03:05,721 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean jail here is really eye opening. 58 00:03:06,321 --> 00:03:08,561 Speaker 3: Obviously you touched on the fact that I lived in 59 00:03:08,601 --> 00:03:11,921 Speaker 3: the Eastern Suburbs. I lived in a community I guess, 60 00:03:12,001 --> 00:03:17,161 Speaker 3: which is very sheltered and very privileged and very out 61 00:03:17,201 --> 00:03:21,201 Speaker 3: of the I'd almost call it far removed from reality 62 00:03:21,481 --> 00:03:24,401 Speaker 3: in all honesty. And when I went in there, you know, 63 00:03:24,441 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 3: I went to a number of different jails within New 64 00:03:27,041 --> 00:03:30,601 Speaker 3: South Wales, but I met so many people that have 65 00:03:30,761 --> 00:03:35,401 Speaker 3: literally had the opposite of my lifestyle, the polar opposite. 66 00:03:35,401 --> 00:03:36,361 Speaker 1: They've had no chance. 67 00:03:36,601 --> 00:03:39,801 Speaker 3: Since the day that they were born, they've had domestic violence, 68 00:03:39,841 --> 00:03:45,241 Speaker 3: they've had drug use, they've had alcohol, gambling, and they've 69 00:03:45,241 --> 00:03:48,441 Speaker 3: grown up knowing only one route really, if you like, 70 00:03:48,561 --> 00:03:51,001 Speaker 3: Whereas I didn't. I grew up knowing that crime was 71 00:03:51,041 --> 00:03:53,801 Speaker 3: bad and that I shouldn't do it, and if I 72 00:03:53,881 --> 00:03:56,041 Speaker 3: do it, you know, this is what the punishment will be. 73 00:03:56,121 --> 00:04:00,041 Speaker 1: And I feel like there's so much unknown, you. 74 00:04:00,001 --> 00:04:03,161 Speaker 3: Know, there's this like people are obsessed with crime shows 75 00:04:03,241 --> 00:04:06,841 Speaker 3: and documentaries around crime and what it is and who 76 00:04:06,881 --> 00:04:10,241 Speaker 3: commits it, and murder shows and all this whatever else. 77 00:04:10,561 --> 00:04:13,841 Speaker 3: But the reality is that the people who are committing 78 00:04:13,921 --> 00:04:16,881 Speaker 3: day to day crimes, if you like, who just keep 79 00:04:17,241 --> 00:04:18,361 Speaker 3: returning in and out of. 80 00:04:18,281 --> 00:04:20,041 Speaker 1: A system year in, year out. 81 00:04:20,201 --> 00:04:23,361 Speaker 3: It's really sad stories that we don't hear about out 82 00:04:23,361 --> 00:04:26,561 Speaker 3: here because there's no need for it, you know, there's 83 00:04:26,601 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 3: no need for people to hear about it. But I 84 00:04:28,361 --> 00:04:30,601 Speaker 3: think that some of the stuff, like, you know, I 85 00:04:30,601 --> 00:04:34,121 Speaker 3: write letters for people who couldn't write or couldn't read, 86 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 3: you know, wanted to translate a message across to a 87 00:04:37,161 --> 00:04:39,561 Speaker 3: judge when they were going in for you know, some 88 00:04:39,761 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 3: form of crime that they've committed. They'd want to write 89 00:04:42,841 --> 00:04:45,481 Speaker 3: something to the judge, not letting him or her know 90 00:04:46,121 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 3: why they should show leniency. And I think there was 91 00:04:50,401 --> 00:04:53,081 Speaker 3: I guess I was just living in this bubble where 92 00:04:53,121 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 3: I had no idea of what real society had or 93 00:04:57,201 --> 00:05:00,521 Speaker 3: was going on. And I think that you know, probably 94 00:05:00,561 --> 00:05:02,761 Speaker 3: for me that was a big wake up call. 95 00:05:03,401 --> 00:05:05,601 Speaker 2: Well it was. I guess it was a humble moment 96 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,881 Speaker 2: where you could look at your life to that point 97 00:05:08,961 --> 00:05:11,161 Speaker 2: and what it could be from here on in. And 98 00:05:11,201 --> 00:05:13,841 Speaker 2: I mean five years in jail is no joke, and 99 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:17,481 Speaker 2: it's about punishment, but it's also about rehabilitation and theory. 100 00:05:18,081 --> 00:05:21,241 Speaker 2: And you're there a gambling addict. You can still gamble 101 00:05:21,281 --> 00:05:23,081 Speaker 2: in jail if you want to. There's always ways to 102 00:05:23,081 --> 00:05:27,681 Speaker 2: do that. But was there any semblance of anything, A program, 103 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,041 Speaker 2: a person, a moment where you could confront your gambling 104 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 2: and start to make a plan about what would happen 105 00:05:33,521 --> 00:05:34,281 Speaker 2: after jail. 106 00:05:35,561 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 3: I mean they ran a couple of things. When you 107 00:05:37,241 --> 00:05:40,841 Speaker 3: go into jail, they screen you, so they ask you 108 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,681 Speaker 3: a load of questions and they say, are you addicted 109 00:05:43,761 --> 00:05:47,361 Speaker 3: to anything or whatever? I think it's mainly like they 110 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 3: ask you whether it's alcohol or drugs. You have to 111 00:05:49,361 --> 00:05:52,361 Speaker 3: nominate gambling if that's something that you've got a problem with, 112 00:05:52,801 --> 00:05:55,961 Speaker 3: and I did, but I think it took like two 113 00:05:56,001 --> 00:05:58,241 Speaker 3: and a half years before I got into a program 114 00:05:58,761 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 3: to address anything around addiction. And they do this thing 115 00:06:02,281 --> 00:06:06,201 Speaker 3: called Equip's Addiction, which is run by a programs officer 116 00:06:06,241 --> 00:06:09,841 Speaker 3: in the jail. I mean it's better than nothing, but 117 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,081 Speaker 3: to me, it was verging on a waste of time, 118 00:06:12,481 --> 00:06:15,001 Speaker 3: you know, and a lot of people have to do it. 119 00:06:15,081 --> 00:06:17,241 Speaker 3: They make people do it in order to get certain 120 00:06:17,281 --> 00:06:21,201 Speaker 3: classifications and potentially even get parole or you. 121 00:06:21,081 --> 00:06:22,161 Speaker 1: Know, whatever it may be. 122 00:06:22,601 --> 00:06:27,001 Speaker 3: So as a compulsive gambler or an alcoholic, you have 123 00:06:27,081 --> 00:06:28,801 Speaker 3: to sort of volunteer the fact that you want to 124 00:06:28,841 --> 00:06:31,081 Speaker 3: give it up, because otherwise it doesn't work. 125 00:06:31,121 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: You have to be willing to admit that it's a problem. 126 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 3: Whereas this is kind of forced upon people who have 127 00:06:37,081 --> 00:06:40,121 Speaker 3: said at a screening question that they might have drunk 128 00:06:40,601 --> 00:06:42,601 Speaker 3: too much or taken drugs from. 129 00:06:42,401 --> 00:06:45,001 Speaker 1: Time to time. So really that was the only thing 130 00:06:45,001 --> 00:06:45,681 Speaker 1: that was offered. 131 00:06:46,081 --> 00:06:50,441 Speaker 3: And gambling's rife in jail in Australia, like it's everywhere. 132 00:06:50,721 --> 00:06:53,881 Speaker 1: I gambled in jail a lot. What would you gamble 133 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: on the footy? 134 00:06:55,161 --> 00:07:01,001 Speaker 3: The NRL, horses anything, play poker, play cards. You probably 135 00:07:01,001 --> 00:07:02,961 Speaker 3: gamble more in there than you would on the outside, 136 00:07:02,961 --> 00:07:06,241 Speaker 3: to be fair, it's just that you've got to pay 137 00:07:06,521 --> 00:07:09,401 Speaker 3: whoever it is within the system, you know, or you've 138 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,561 Speaker 3: got to gamble against one of your fellow inmates rather 139 00:07:12,601 --> 00:07:14,201 Speaker 3: than an app or a bookie. 140 00:07:14,681 --> 00:07:17,841 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's everywhere, which can be dangerous and frightening, and 141 00:07:17,921 --> 00:07:20,761 Speaker 2: jail is certainly both those things, but it's also incredibly 142 00:07:20,841 --> 00:07:24,241 Speaker 2: boring too, and you've got to pass the time somehow. 143 00:07:24,841 --> 00:07:28,121 Speaker 2: You're facing this five year stretch. How you feeling each day. 144 00:07:29,441 --> 00:07:32,801 Speaker 3: Well, I went in there very heavy and chubby and 145 00:07:32,841 --> 00:07:35,121 Speaker 3: bloated and a mess from all the drink and the 146 00:07:35,201 --> 00:07:39,161 Speaker 3: drugs and the bad food and the gambling. So I 147 00:07:39,241 --> 00:07:42,441 Speaker 3: pretty much said to myself that I've definitely wanted to 148 00:07:42,481 --> 00:07:44,321 Speaker 3: fix that up. So that was one of the first 149 00:07:44,321 --> 00:07:47,681 Speaker 3: things that I did, was fitness and got myself in 150 00:07:47,721 --> 00:07:48,401 Speaker 3: better shape. 151 00:07:48,961 --> 00:07:50,881 Speaker 1: But I mean, you can only do that some form 152 00:07:50,921 --> 00:07:51,681 Speaker 1: of level. 153 00:07:51,881 --> 00:07:54,081 Speaker 3: It depends what jail you're in, but you know, you're 154 00:07:54,121 --> 00:07:56,721 Speaker 3: locked in a cell a lot of the time. It 155 00:07:56,801 --> 00:08:00,161 Speaker 3: might be from three pm until eight am the next day, 156 00:08:00,281 --> 00:08:02,601 Speaker 3: so you're very limited in what you can do. 157 00:08:02,721 --> 00:08:04,521 Speaker 1: You're very limited in what you can eat. 158 00:08:05,121 --> 00:08:07,561 Speaker 3: What you get access to you know, you have a 159 00:08:07,641 --> 00:08:11,201 Speaker 3: certain number of TV channels, whatever. But I think that 160 00:08:11,681 --> 00:08:13,441 Speaker 3: you're going to be able to reflect when you're in there, 161 00:08:13,481 --> 00:08:15,321 Speaker 3: because that's a lot of your time is going to 162 00:08:15,361 --> 00:08:18,041 Speaker 3: be spent doing that, you know, especially when you're doing 163 00:08:18,081 --> 00:08:22,241 Speaker 3: a long stretch, because effectively there is nothing else to do. 164 00:08:22,961 --> 00:08:25,281 Speaker 3: You know, you can read. I wanted to study when 165 00:08:25,281 --> 00:08:27,561 Speaker 3: I was in there. I wasn't allowed to. That was 166 00:08:27,601 --> 00:08:30,041 Speaker 3: a big bummer for me because early on in the thing, 167 00:08:30,321 --> 00:08:33,561 Speaker 3: I've really expressed an interest in looking into doing a 168 00:08:33,601 --> 00:08:35,161 Speaker 3: psychology degree. 169 00:08:35,041 --> 00:08:36,241 Speaker 1: But there was no assistance. 170 00:08:36,961 --> 00:08:40,281 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was just very They made it harder to 171 00:08:40,401 --> 00:08:43,041 Speaker 3: do it than not to do it, which, yeah, it's 172 00:08:43,121 --> 00:08:45,721 Speaker 3: just I think that's a reflection of the system itself. 173 00:08:46,481 --> 00:08:49,401 Speaker 2: Well, the system is there to punish you primarily, and 174 00:08:49,441 --> 00:08:51,481 Speaker 2: that's always been the notion of jail. If you can 175 00:08:51,521 --> 00:08:53,681 Speaker 2: make it a little bit harder than people like them, 176 00:08:53,681 --> 00:08:56,721 Speaker 2: that that's part of the whole ethos of jail. But 177 00:08:57,321 --> 00:09:00,441 Speaker 2: as you say, you get that time to reflect, and 178 00:09:00,521 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 2: I guess people can have these demoscene conversions, like bold moments, epiphanies, 179 00:09:04,561 --> 00:09:07,441 Speaker 2: all that type stuff. But it's not like that, is 180 00:09:07,441 --> 00:09:12,241 Speaker 2: that it's a gradual coming back to yourself and closing 181 00:09:12,281 --> 00:09:15,361 Speaker 2: that gap between what you'd become and who you really were. 182 00:09:16,001 --> 00:09:18,481 Speaker 3: Well, a lot of people love going to jail because 183 00:09:18,481 --> 00:09:21,361 Speaker 3: they make money in there, or it's an opportunity for them. 184 00:09:21,921 --> 00:09:24,361 Speaker 3: I mean, you learn from the best in there if 185 00:09:24,361 --> 00:09:27,161 Speaker 3: you want to become a career criminal. So there's two 186 00:09:27,241 --> 00:09:29,601 Speaker 3: aspects of it. You can either go in there under 187 00:09:29,641 --> 00:09:31,601 Speaker 3: the notion that you really want to sort yourself out 188 00:09:32,601 --> 00:09:36,121 Speaker 3: and get something from it, make it a worthwhile exercise, 189 00:09:36,321 --> 00:09:38,201 Speaker 3: or you're going in there and you come out. 190 00:09:38,001 --> 00:09:38,921 Speaker 1: Worse than you went in. 191 00:09:39,281 --> 00:09:41,401 Speaker 3: And I think that's a part of the reason that 192 00:09:41,481 --> 00:09:44,841 Speaker 3: we see the reoffending rates and the returns into the 193 00:09:44,881 --> 00:09:48,281 Speaker 3: system is because of the lack of stability, or lack 194 00:09:48,321 --> 00:09:50,601 Speaker 3: of programs, or lack of help that there is within 195 00:09:50,601 --> 00:09:52,961 Speaker 3: that system. So you really have to be quite a 196 00:09:53,001 --> 00:09:56,161 Speaker 3: strong character, I think, to overcome that whilst in there 197 00:09:56,201 --> 00:09:59,961 Speaker 3: and actually try and do something with your times, especially 198 00:10:00,001 --> 00:10:02,081 Speaker 3: because I understand the people that are in and out 199 00:10:02,121 --> 00:10:04,841 Speaker 3: doing six month stretches. There's not enough time for them 200 00:10:04,841 --> 00:10:07,001 Speaker 3: to do a program or a business degree or. 201 00:10:07,521 --> 00:10:10,121 Speaker 1: Whatever it may be. But then the ones that are 202 00:10:10,121 --> 00:10:11,081 Speaker 1: in there longer term. 203 00:10:11,241 --> 00:10:13,761 Speaker 3: You know, you pretty soon in you know that you're 204 00:10:13,801 --> 00:10:15,881 Speaker 3: looking a decent sentence. You want to try and put 205 00:10:15,921 --> 00:10:18,321 Speaker 3: some things in place where you're going to get something 206 00:10:18,321 --> 00:10:18,681 Speaker 3: from that. 207 00:10:18,801 --> 00:10:20,281 Speaker 1: And that was my notion. 208 00:10:20,401 --> 00:10:24,401 Speaker 3: And I knew the punishment fitted the crime, and so 209 00:10:24,721 --> 00:10:27,441 Speaker 3: I knew that it was about me being punished, and 210 00:10:27,601 --> 00:10:30,121 Speaker 3: you know, that meant going from jail to jail, and 211 00:10:30,161 --> 00:10:32,521 Speaker 3: that meant waiting a certain period of time to get 212 00:10:32,561 --> 00:10:36,361 Speaker 3: certain things. But I was a bit unlucky because obviously 213 00:10:36,401 --> 00:10:39,201 Speaker 3: COVID hit when I was in jail, and that diminished 214 00:10:39,241 --> 00:10:42,041 Speaker 3: any chance of any work release or early release or 215 00:10:42,041 --> 00:10:45,321 Speaker 3: anything like that. So that was all removed from me, 216 00:10:45,441 --> 00:10:48,921 Speaker 3: which is a normal aspect of prison for most people 217 00:10:48,921 --> 00:10:52,281 Speaker 3: these days with a decent sized sentence, that you will 218 00:10:52,321 --> 00:10:55,161 Speaker 3: get the opportunity to go out to the community prior 219 00:10:55,201 --> 00:10:58,161 Speaker 3: to your release and either work or you'll get day 220 00:10:58,241 --> 00:11:01,081 Speaker 3: release or weekend release, and all of that was removed 221 00:11:01,081 --> 00:11:04,281 Speaker 3: through COVID. So you know, I took a few knocks 222 00:11:04,321 --> 00:11:07,041 Speaker 3: on the way, and then eventually when I got out, 223 00:11:07,321 --> 00:11:15,081 Speaker 3: I knew I just had to make some changes in life.