1 00:00:03,190 --> 00:00:06,439 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:06,730 --> 00:00:10,350 Sean Aylmer: The unemployment rate for February came in yesterday at 4%. 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:13,600 Sean Aylmer: It was a very, very strong set of numbers for 4 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,560 Sean Aylmer: the labour force, with employment rising by 77,000 and a record 5 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:23,079 Sean Aylmer: participation rate. Unemployment is now at its lowest rate since August, 2008. 6 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:27,810 Sean Aylmer: And back then the cash rate was 7.25%. Today it's at 0.1%. 7 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:30,670 Sean Aylmer: To help make sense of it all. I welcome back 8 00:00:30,670 --> 00:00:34,250 Sean Aylmer: Carlos Cacho, the chief economist at Jarden Australia. Carlos, welcome back to 9 00:00:34,250 --> 00:00:34,900 Sean Aylmer: Fear and Greed. 10 00:00:35,170 --> 00:00:36,090 Carlos Cacho: Thanks for having me, Sean. 11 00:00:36,370 --> 00:00:38,870 Sean Aylmer: What do you make of the labour force numbers yesterday? 12 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,010 Carlos Cacho: Any way you cut it, this report is a very, 13 00:00:42,010 --> 00:00:45,900 Carlos Cacho: very strong signal of just how much of a good 14 00:00:45,900 --> 00:00:47,180 Carlos Cacho: place the labour market is in at the moment. If you look at 15 00:00:48,630 --> 00:00:52,260 Carlos Cacho: jobs growth that was strong, as you mentioned, 77,000, all 16 00:00:52,260 --> 00:00:56,040 Carlos Cacho: of that full-time. Participation, is it a record level, so 17 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,730 Carlos Cacho: more supply of labour is getting pulled in by the strong 18 00:00:59,730 --> 00:01:04,070 Carlos Cacho: labour market. Unemployment and underutilisation, both at the lowest levels 19 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,949 Carlos Cacho: since 2008. Unemployment, in fact, the equal lowest in over 20 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:10,390 Carlos Cacho: 40 years. You have to go back to the quarterly 21 00:01:10,390 --> 00:01:13,370 Carlos Cacho: data in the '70s to find an unemployment print below 4%. 22 00:01:13,830 --> 00:01:15,940 Carlos Cacho: And we're probably going to see that in the next 23 00:01:15,940 --> 00:01:19,590 Carlos Cacho: month or two. And hours worked up almost 9%, so 24 00:01:19,770 --> 00:01:22,819 Carlos Cacho: largely retracing the 4 we saw in January nearly driven 25 00:01:22,819 --> 00:01:25,280 Carlos Cacho: by Omicron. There is still a bit of weakness there 26 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:29,110 Carlos Cacho: because of Omicron. You're still seeing more than usual people 27 00:01:29,209 --> 00:01:31,840 Carlos Cacho: not able to work or working fewer hours than normal 28 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,440 Carlos Cacho: because of illness but we've seen a lot of the 29 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:36,729 Carlos Cacho: drag we saw in January has really bounced back strongly. 30 00:01:37,150 --> 00:01:39,120 Sean Aylmer: So it's a simple question, but I actually think it's 31 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,920 Sean Aylmer: a really difficult one to answer. Why? Why is the 32 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:43,500 Sean Aylmer: labour market so strong? 33 00:01:43,830 --> 00:01:48,210 Carlos Cacho: Well, I think you need to really think back to the level of stimulus that's gone 34 00:01:48,210 --> 00:01:50,550 Carlos Cacho: into the economy over the last two years, whether it's 35 00:01:50,550 --> 00:01:55,000 Carlos Cacho: the RBA cutting rates to 0.1%, the various other stimulatory 36 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,680 Carlos Cacho: measures they engage in, the quantitative easing program, the term 37 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,290 Carlos Cacho: funding facility, the huge amount of government stimulus we saw, JobKeeper, 38 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,580 Carlos Cacho: the support for businesses, that's all come bubbling through now. 39 00:02:05,580 --> 00:02:08,240 Carlos Cacho: And we are seeing just a very, very strong macro backdrop. We've 40 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:12,840 Carlos Cacho: seen business investment intentions the best since really the GFC. 41 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,859 Carlos Cacho: We're seeing consumption growth very strong at the moment. We're 42 00:02:16,860 --> 00:02:19,970 Carlos Cacho: seeing consumer confidence and business confidence, though they've dipped a 43 00:02:19,970 --> 00:02:23,880 Carlos Cacho: little bit recently given the global issues still remain very solid. 44 00:02:24,180 --> 00:02:26,419 Carlos Cacho: And you're seeing a very high level of investment in 45 00:02:26,870 --> 00:02:30,269 Carlos Cacho: areas like housing, as well as mining. So many parts 46 00:02:30,270 --> 00:02:31,900 Carlos Cacho: of the economy are doing well. There's a lot of 47 00:02:31,900 --> 00:02:34,810 Carlos Cacho: money going around and at the same time we've had 48 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,030 Carlos Cacho: closed borders. So the supply of labour has been a 49 00:02:38,030 --> 00:02:40,910 Carlos Cacho: bit more constrained than it might normally be, which is 50 00:02:40,910 --> 00:02:43,280 Carlos Cacho: seeing unemployment fall a bit faster than it might otherwise 51 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:43,850 Carlos Cacho: normally fall. 52 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,130 Sean Aylmer: The missing piece of the jigsaw puzzle in terms of 53 00:02:47,130 --> 00:02:50,590 Sean Aylmer: interest rates still seems to be wages growth. Do you 54 00:02:50,590 --> 00:02:54,169 Sean Aylmer: think we'll start seeing growth in wages come through, which 55 00:02:54,169 --> 00:02:56,750 Sean Aylmer: will allow the Reserve Bank to stick to its word 56 00:02:56,750 --> 00:02:58,160 Sean Aylmer: and start lifting interest rates? 57 00:02:58,490 --> 00:03:00,269 Carlos Cacho: Yeah, I think we're starting to see the early signs 58 00:03:00,300 --> 00:03:02,900 Carlos Cacho: of that. Wages growth has picked up a little bit over 59 00:03:02,900 --> 00:03:05,130 Carlos Cacho: the last six months. It's still only back to where 60 00:03:05,130 --> 00:03:07,790 Carlos Cacho: it was in 2019, but we are looking at some 61 00:03:07,790 --> 00:03:10,510 Carlos Cacho: other leading indicators. We're definitely seeing signs that it is 62 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,429 Carlos Cacho: starting to percolate through the economy. The underutilisation rate, which 63 00:03:14,430 --> 00:03:16,360 Carlos Cacho: is both people unemployed as well as people who would 64 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,620 Carlos Cacho: like to work more hours, is one of the best 65 00:03:18,620 --> 00:03:21,760 Carlos Cacho: leading indicators for wages growth. And that's back to 2008 66 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,389 Carlos Cacho: levels and consistent with wages growth above 3%. When we 67 00:03:25,389 --> 00:03:27,480 Carlos Cacho: go out and talk to firms and businesses, we are 68 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,450 Carlos Cacho: hearing from them that it's very difficult to hire labour. 69 00:03:30,450 --> 00:03:33,869 Carlos Cacho: In many cases, they're having to offer wage rises of 10% 70 00:03:33,870 --> 00:03:36,720 Carlos Cacho: or 20% in some industries. And so while it's not 71 00:03:36,750 --> 00:03:40,070 Carlos Cacho: impacting all workers, we certainly seeing signs of and hearing 72 00:03:40,070 --> 00:03:43,570 Carlos Cacho: more anecdotes of wages pressure coming through. Our expectation is 73 00:03:43,570 --> 00:03:45,710 Carlos Cacho: that by the middle of this year, we should have some pretty 74 00:03:45,710 --> 00:03:48,640 Carlos Cacho: firm signs that wages growth is picking up at around 3%, which 75 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:50,870 Carlos Cacho: is what the RBA would like to see. The one 76 00:03:50,870 --> 00:03:53,210 Carlos Cacho: thing to bear in mind for Australia is that we do have 77 00:03:53,570 --> 00:03:57,160 Carlos Cacho: more than half of the wages are set by enterprise 78 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,420 Carlos Cacho: bargaining agreements, which it usually lasts two or three years. 79 00:04:00,420 --> 00:04:04,220 Carlos Cacho: They're not renegotiated every year and the award wage system, 80 00:04:04,260 --> 00:04:06,740 Carlos Cacho: which is the annual minimum wage review. And so that 81 00:04:06,740 --> 00:04:08,930 Carlos Cacho: just means that it takes a little bit longer for 82 00:04:08,930 --> 00:04:11,000 Carlos Cacho: some of those wage pressures to come through to the 83 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:15,450 Carlos Cacho: broader labour force, but we should start to see those 84 00:04:15,450 --> 00:04:18,270 Carlos Cacho: emerged later this year, particularly the award wage review in July. 85 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,900 Carlos Cacho: I would expect to see a material rise in minimum 86 00:04:21,900 --> 00:04:24,860 Carlos Cacho: wages given inflation's probably going to be running above 3% 87 00:04:25,490 --> 00:04:27,080 Carlos Cacho: and perhaps above 4% by then. 88 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,060 Sean Aylmer: Isn't there the risk then that wages suddenly will grow 89 00:04:31,060 --> 00:04:34,150 Sean Aylmer: very, very quickly and we're behind the eight ball? 90 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,270 Carlos Cacho: Well, look, certainly there, there is a risk of that. 91 00:04:36,270 --> 00:04:39,719 Carlos Cacho: I think one thing the RBA has highlighted the fact 92 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,229 Carlos Cacho: that wages responded little bit slower in Australia because of 93 00:04:42,230 --> 00:04:45,440 Carlos Cacho: that rigidity in our wage setting mechanism. That also means 94 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,159 Carlos Cacho: that higher wages can become more entrenched. If you've got 95 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,160 Carlos Cacho: a most enterprise bargaining agreements last for three years. So 96 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,360 Carlos Cacho: if you are putting in place a wage rise of 97 00:04:53,810 --> 00:04:56,589 Carlos Cacho: 3% or 4% or 5%, then that's going to stick around for 98 00:04:56,589 --> 00:04:59,080 Carlos Cacho: a while. So there is a risk of that. We'll 99 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,640 Carlos Cacho: just have to see how it flows through the economy. 100 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,849 Carlos Cacho: I think the expectations are generally that we should see 101 00:05:04,850 --> 00:05:06,630 Carlos Cacho: this managed well, but I think the risk of in 102 00:05:06,630 --> 00:05:09,839 Carlos Cacho: both Australia and the US and indeed most developed nations is that 103 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,099 Carlos Cacho: we see wage pressures and inflation pressures run ahead of 104 00:05:13,100 --> 00:05:14,940 Carlos Cacho: expectations in the near future. 105 00:05:16,010 --> 00:05:17,990 Sean Aylmer: So what do you think the Reserve Bank will do? When's your forecast for 106 00:05:17,990 --> 00:05:19,560 Sean Aylmer: when it will lift interest rates? 107 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,740 Carlos Cacho: At this stage I've pencilled in the first hike for 108 00:05:22,740 --> 00:05:26,650 Carlos Cacho: September this year. The risk is probably earlier, particularly given that 109 00:05:26,860 --> 00:05:29,789 Carlos Cacho: the signs that inflation is going to overshoot their, and 110 00:05:29,790 --> 00:05:33,300 Carlos Cacho: potentially market, expectations. I think they're probably just going to 111 00:05:33,300 --> 00:05:35,779 Carlos Cacho: want to see a bit more confirmation that wages growth 112 00:05:35,779 --> 00:05:38,670 Carlos Cacho: is actually coming through in the data before they do that. 113 00:05:38,670 --> 00:05:42,260 Carlos Cacho: And we'll get another measure of wages in mid May 114 00:05:42,570 --> 00:05:44,740 Carlos Cacho: and then another one in mid August. So I think 115 00:05:44,740 --> 00:05:47,310 Carlos Cacho: they'll probably take two more of those measures before they're 116 00:05:47,310 --> 00:05:51,650 Carlos Cacho: comfortable with increasing rates, but if inflation surprises materials to 117 00:05:51,650 --> 00:05:53,900 Carlos Cacho: the upside and the May reading for wages proves to 118 00:05:53,900 --> 00:05:56,670 Carlos Cacho: be stronger than expected, they could potentially move sooner. 119 00:05:57,060 --> 00:05:58,729 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Carlos. We'll be back in a minute. 120 00:05:58,730 --> 00:06:07,980 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Chief Economist at Jarden Australia, Carlos Cacho. 121 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:10,730 Sean Aylmer: Now last week, Philip Lowe, the Governor of the Reserve Bank, 122 00:06:10,730 --> 00:06:14,100 Sean Aylmer: said it was plausible to think about an interest rate 123 00:06:14,100 --> 00:06:18,280 Sean Aylmer: rise in 2022 that doesn't mean it's the central case scenario. 124 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:20,620 Sean Aylmer: But certainly all the talk now is about a rate 125 00:06:20,620 --> 00:06:23,260 Sean Aylmer: rise at some point this year, rather than 2024. That's 126 00:06:23,260 --> 00:06:25,479 Sean Aylmer: been quite a shift in the last couple of months. 127 00:06:25,810 --> 00:06:29,890 Carlos Cacho: Absolutely. Now the RBA has been surprised to the upside 128 00:06:29,890 --> 00:06:32,270 Carlos Cacho: with the strength of the economic recovery and the strength 129 00:06:32,270 --> 00:06:34,690 Carlos Cacho: of inflation. And I think if we look back to 130 00:06:34,690 --> 00:06:37,210 Carlos Cacho: December before they updated their forecast in February to the 131 00:06:37,210 --> 00:06:41,720 Carlos Cacho: November meeting, back then we were just coming out of lockdowns, 132 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,220 Carlos Cacho: it was before Omicron hit, it was before the war 133 00:06:44,220 --> 00:06:48,220 Carlos Cacho: in Ukraine and the outlook was still quite uncertain. Fast 134 00:06:48,220 --> 00:06:50,669 Carlos Cacho: forward to now, and the economy is clearly very strong. 135 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:54,000 Carlos Cacho: The key real risk in Australia and in most developed 136 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,300 Carlos Cacho: economies is inflation running too hot, particularly with commodity prices 137 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,799 Carlos Cacho: doing what they doing. And so I think the RBA 138 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:04,650 Carlos Cacho: is rightfully adjusting their view of things. They're likely to 139 00:07:04,650 --> 00:07:08,560 Carlos Cacho: pull forward their forecasts. We saw today, unemployment is already at 4%. 140 00:07:09,150 --> 00:07:13,280 Carlos Cacho: The RBA wasn't expecting we'd get to 4% until June. So we're, again, 141 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,240 Carlos Cacho: running ahead of their expectations. And I suspect in a 142 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:18,680 Carlos Cacho: couple months time, we will over the next couple, we 143 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,850 Carlos Cacho: will continue to see their rhetoric shift, but it's a 144 00:07:21,850 --> 00:07:24,370 Carlos Cacho: good thing. The economy is running, is strong, and the 145 00:07:24,370 --> 00:07:26,989 Carlos Cacho: reason the RBA is considering hiking rates is because the 146 00:07:26,990 --> 00:07:30,540 Carlos Cacho: economy is so strong. So it should be a positive in that sense. 147 00:07:30,850 --> 00:07:32,989 Sean Aylmer: Okay. The other big news yesterday was the US Federal 148 00:07:32,990 --> 00:07:37,070 Sean Aylmer: Reserve raising interest rates for the first time in three years. Also, 149 00:07:37,070 --> 00:07:39,470 Sean Aylmer: they rose interest rates by a quarter of percentage point. 150 00:07:39,470 --> 00:07:43,240 Sean Aylmer: They also outlined basically a time table to keep lifting 151 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,010 Sean Aylmer: rates for the rest of this year. They'll get to 152 00:07:46,010 --> 00:07:50,830 Sean Aylmer: at least 1.75% to 2%. It seemed to calm markets generally. 153 00:07:50,830 --> 00:07:54,250 Sean Aylmer: What sort of the impact does that have on global markets, 154 00:07:54,250 --> 00:07:55,470 Sean Aylmer: but then locally? 155 00:07:55,970 --> 00:07:58,020 Carlos Cacho: Look, I think the Fed meeting, it was quite interesting 156 00:07:58,020 --> 00:08:00,980 Carlos Cacho: actually to watch. I got up early yesterday morning to 157 00:08:00,980 --> 00:08:04,850 Carlos Cacho: listen to Chair Powell's speech. And initially on the announcement, 158 00:08:04,850 --> 00:08:06,410 Carlos Cacho: you did see the market sell off. And then as 159 00:08:06,410 --> 00:08:09,130 Carlos Cacho: he started speaking, the market rallied again. So I think 160 00:08:09,130 --> 00:08:11,930 Carlos Cacho: he managed to calm the market's nerves with the level 161 00:08:11,930 --> 00:08:14,630 Carlos Cacho: of hikes that the Fed is expecting, which is, as 162 00:08:14,630 --> 00:08:17,000 Carlos Cacho: you said, one at every meeting this year. I think 163 00:08:17,290 --> 00:08:19,800 Carlos Cacho: what it's telling you is that emergency policy is no 164 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,550 Carlos Cacho: longer needed. We're going to see higher rates. It probably 165 00:08:22,550 --> 00:08:25,960 Carlos Cacho: means that interest rates across the curve need to go up, 166 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,220 Carlos Cacho: so bond yields need to rise. In terms of what 167 00:08:28,220 --> 00:08:32,250 Carlos Cacho: it means for Australia, it will drag up our bond yields, 168 00:08:32,330 --> 00:08:36,340 Carlos Cacho: just given the fact that Australian rates are traded globally. 169 00:08:36,340 --> 00:08:39,209 Carlos Cacho: And so given other options that that will force that higher. 170 00:08:39,610 --> 00:08:42,770 Carlos Cacho: And it makes RBA's job easier. If they're hiking rates 171 00:08:42,770 --> 00:08:45,750 Carlos Cacho: in an environment where the Fed is hiking more aggressively, it's going 172 00:08:45,750 --> 00:08:48,650 Carlos Cacho: to mean that there's an optic upward pressure on the currency that you 173 00:08:48,650 --> 00:08:51,480 Carlos Cacho: might normally expect from central bank tightening. So that just 174 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,840 Carlos Cacho: makes it easier for them to tighten as they need to. 175 00:08:54,410 --> 00:08:56,510 Sean Aylmer: I thought the Fed did a really good job yesterday. 176 00:08:56,510 --> 00:08:58,160 Sean Aylmer: The Reserve Bank used to call it jaw boning. The 177 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,700 Sean Aylmer: idea that it actually just looked as if it was 178 00:09:00,700 --> 00:09:04,790 Sean Aylmer: in control and what the chairman was saying people liked 179 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,630 Sean Aylmer: to hear because everyone after the commentators were talking about, 180 00:09:08,630 --> 00:09:10,570 Sean Aylmer: well, it's not out of control. It's not like we 181 00:09:10,570 --> 00:09:12,650 Sean Aylmer: don't know where the end of the rate cycle is 182 00:09:12,650 --> 00:09:16,559 Sean Aylmer: because he's indicated where that will be. It was a good 183 00:09:16,830 --> 00:09:19,880 Sean Aylmer: job in controlling markets or at least soothing markets. 184 00:09:20,290 --> 00:09:22,530 Carlos Cacho: Yeah. I think he did a very good job of 185 00:09:22,770 --> 00:09:26,470 Carlos Cacho: balancing the view that yes, we're increasing rates, we're increasing 186 00:09:26,470 --> 00:09:30,040 Carlos Cacho: them a lot, inflation's high, but he was sending a 187 00:09:30,260 --> 00:09:35,949 Carlos Cacho: confidence signal that they're going to proceed carefully and cautiously 188 00:09:35,950 --> 00:09:38,780 Carlos Cacho: but that they're going to focus on getting inflation back 189 00:09:38,780 --> 00:09:41,420 Carlos Cacho: down to their target. I think the important thing was 190 00:09:41,420 --> 00:09:45,070 Carlos Cacho: he didn't rule out hiking more aggressively, but he also 191 00:09:45,179 --> 00:09:48,970 Carlos Cacho: didn't rule out potentially going slower if the outlook changes. 192 00:09:49,429 --> 00:09:52,569 Carlos Cacho: One interesting thing though, was he certainly avoided the questions 193 00:09:52,570 --> 00:09:55,730 Carlos Cacho: around what they would do if the unemployment rate were to rise. 194 00:09:56,020 --> 00:09:58,620 Carlos Cacho: And the Fed is forecast that the unemployment rate does 195 00:09:58,620 --> 00:10:02,809 Carlos Cacho: remain around 3.5% despite increasing interest rates by more than 2%. 196 00:10:02,809 --> 00:10:06,470 Carlos Cacho: So that will be certainly interesting to watch out there. The 197 00:10:06,470 --> 00:10:08,630 Carlos Cacho: story they're telling us is that they think they can 198 00:10:08,630 --> 00:10:12,190 Carlos Cacho: hike rates and get inflation down without unemployment lifting. That's 199 00:10:12,190 --> 00:10:15,309 Carlos Cacho: really going to be the key test and to see how do they 200 00:10:15,309 --> 00:10:18,440 Carlos Cacho: decide to make that trade off between unemployment and inflation. 201 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:22,750 Carlos Cacho: Because generally speaking, getting inflation down without unemployment rising is 202 00:10:22,750 --> 00:10:24,809 Carlos Cacho: not as easily achieved as some has hoped. 203 00:10:25,340 --> 00:10:27,440 Sean Aylmer: Carlos, do you like days like yesterday where there's just 204 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:28,439 Sean Aylmer: so much going on? 205 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,620 Carlos Cacho: Look, it certainly makes the job interesting and challenging and 206 00:10:32,620 --> 00:10:34,530 Carlos Cacho: keeps you on your toes. But it's also nice to 207 00:10:34,530 --> 00:10:36,849 Carlos Cacho: have those quiet days as well, where you can think a 208 00:10:36,860 --> 00:10:39,880 Carlos Cacho: bit further ahead and not worry about the flurry of 209 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:43,170 Carlos Cacho: the day's activity. So I think takes both types of 210 00:10:43,550 --> 00:10:45,350 Carlos Cacho: days to do the job well. 211 00:10:45,530 --> 00:10:47,850 Sean Aylmer: Keep you happy. Fair enough. Thank you for talking to 212 00:10:47,850 --> 00:10:48,270 Sean Aylmer: Fear and Greed. 213 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:49,849 Carlos Cacho: Thanks for having me, Sean. 214 00:10:50,170 --> 00:10:53,670 Sean Aylmer: That was Carlos Cacho, chief economist at Jarden Australia. This 215 00:10:53,670 --> 00:10:56,050 Sean Aylmer: is a fear and Greed Daily interview. Join us every 216 00:10:56,050 --> 00:10:58,579 Sean Aylmer: morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed. Australia's 217 00:10:58,580 --> 00:11:01,709 Sean Aylmer: most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.