1
00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,680
Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwan contains course

2
00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:08,840
Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

3
00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:41,879
Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. We are

4
00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,560
Speaker 1: close to the end of John's evidence now. The transcript

5
00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,640
Speaker 1: from that videotaped record of interview is just about concluded.

6
00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,240
Speaker 1: Since episode fourteen, you have been hearing a reconstruction of

7
00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,720
Speaker 1: John's side of the story from August nineteen ninety eight,

8
00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,320
Speaker 1: because that was the only time John has been questioned

9
00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:05,680
Speaker 1: on the record by police tasked with investigating Bromlin's disappearance.

10
00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:09,679
Speaker 1: Our diversions into aspects of the evidence which have cried

11
00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:13,440
Speaker 1: out for closer scrutiny, like the medicare check, have a

12
00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:18,480
Speaker 1: little further to go. Soon you'll hear John's characterization of

13
00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:23,679
Speaker 1: Bronlin's mother, Barbara, the grandmother of Crystal and Lauren. This

14
00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:28,440
Speaker 1: isn't an easy listen. I'm grateful to Barbara's daughter, Kim Marshall,

15
00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:33,000
Speaker 1: and to Maddie Walsh for their help in balancing this. Now,

16
00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,800
Speaker 1: let's go back to Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor's interview with

17
00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:40,720
Speaker 1: John Winfield in the ballon of Police station. In the

18
00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,559
Speaker 1: previous episode. You heard John tell the detective that John

19
00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,199
Speaker 1: believed he would be able to start a new life

20
00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:53,640
Speaker 1: without much trouble at all. Therefore, John reasoned, Bronlin could too.

21
00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,960
Speaker 2: I mean, I know her mother when she went to

22
00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:01,840
Speaker 2: England and disappears be twel years. I know for a

23
00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,040
Speaker 2: fact that she worked as a prostitute. And she will

24
00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,000
Speaker 2: tell you that too. She readily admits it. And that's

25
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,880
Speaker 2: where this other child came from. Was your wife close

26
00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:13,320
Speaker 2: to your children?

27
00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:14,640
Speaker 3: Oh?

28
00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:15,799
Speaker 1: I think so? Yeah?

29
00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean as close as any mother would be.

30
00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:24,080
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, i'd be lying to say that

31
00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,880
Speaker 2: I didn't think she probably was close.

32
00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:32,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. Detective Wayne Tembi asked a question, what's the other

33
00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,040
Speaker 1: child's name that she had in England? Oh?

34
00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:41,400
Speaker 2: The one that's Ilegitimate Kim. She used to live with

35
00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,880
Speaker 2: their mother in Tasmania. It's all in there. Graham's actually

36
00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:49,960
Speaker 2: spoken to her. Actually, I brought her in here. I

37
00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:51,400
Speaker 2: brought her in here to see Graham.

38
00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:51,880
Speaker 1: One day.

39
00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:57,079
Speaker 2: She's been here, Kim, she's been interviewed here with Graham. Yeah,

40
00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:59,080
Speaker 2: because she came up to stay with me for a

41
00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,160
Speaker 2: couple of weeks to help me look after the kids.

42
00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,280
Speaker 2: She came up by bus and she stayed a couple

43
00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,600
Speaker 2: of weeks and then I brought her in. Ran Graham

44
00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:10,000
Speaker 2: up and I brought her in.

45
00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,200
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor asked John if there was anything else he

46
00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:16,240
Speaker 1: wanted to raise in the interview.

47
00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,680
Speaker 2: No, just I'd like to reiterate about the media.

48
00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:21,280
Speaker 1: That's all.

49
00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:26,160
Speaker 4: I'll preclude the interview now at ten sixteen am, and

50
00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,120
Speaker 4: we will then seal the tapes in your presence and

51
00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,400
Speaker 4: you'll be provided with a copy of the tape.

52
00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,680
Speaker 1: Do you own this format? Yeah? And that's where the

53
00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:40,119
Speaker 1: interview ended. On one of our drives to Lennox Head,

54
00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,360
Speaker 1: Mattie Walsh and I lost our way while sharing ideas

55
00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,520
Speaker 1: about the case, I've ended up yelling up.

56
00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:48,760
Speaker 5: The h the scenic group.

57
00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. Did you notice that.

58
00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,120
Speaker 5: I have no navigational skills?

59
00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:55,720
Speaker 3: Right?

60
00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:56,400
Speaker 5: Slack?

61
00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:58,680
Speaker 6: Something called natural splashaw, this is.

62
00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:07,520
Speaker 1: Quote pretty, It's good, Glinn. I'm driving down at the moment.

63
00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:11,480
Speaker 7: I'm not too far out actually, and I'm with you, Maddie.

64
00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,280
Speaker 1: Did you try and interview him again after that first

65
00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,960
Speaker 1: one in ninety eight? Do you remember again?

66
00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:18,120
Speaker 5: Think we did?

67
00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:20,720
Speaker 8: I don't think we had any more approaches, but we

68
00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,560
Speaker 8: would have had a couple of phone calls, like if

69
00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,040
Speaker 8: I made a phone call and say John Winfield was

70
00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:31,360
Speaker 8: a computer generated running shoet was called Eagle Eye at

71
00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:35,200
Speaker 8: the time, and it was a new system for major incidents,

72
00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:39,640
Speaker 8: and I had it on the computer. So everything was

73
00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,040
Speaker 8: transferred onto that major incident system.

74
00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,920
Speaker 1: But whatever happed to it, nail like I got.

75
00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,480
Speaker 4: We held off for quite some time and his insistence

76
00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,800
Speaker 4: he didn't want anything going in the media, and then.

77
00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,040
Speaker 9: He didn't want eating in the papers. He didn't want

78
00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,920
Speaker 9: any in the media about her disappearance. We told him

79
00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,680
Speaker 9: and said, look, it's going in the lead here. So

80
00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,800
Speaker 9: he was unhappy about it. He was very much against

81
00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:08,719
Speaker 9: the medium being involved.

82
00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,880
Speaker 1: I'm drawing close to the Lennox. Are you around today

83
00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:14,000
Speaker 1: or are you out of town?

84
00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:14,680
Speaker 6: Oh?

85
00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,640
Speaker 1: I'm numbering around. So I've just entered the ballot of

86
00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:19,680
Speaker 1: shy now and they rode for Byron.

87
00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:21,960
Speaker 7: All right, Yeah, there was one thing I wanted to

88
00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:27,960
Speaker 7: check though. Do you recall whether John ever filed for

89
00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,760
Speaker 7: divorce from Broadwind after she went on.

90
00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:32,719
Speaker 1: I didn't know that answer.

91
00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,560
Speaker 10: I certainly don't thinking had or I was not aware of.

92
00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:38,560
Speaker 5: It, certainly up to the inquest stage.

93
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,160
Speaker 4: I discharged from the police after that, but that inquest

94
00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,080
Speaker 4: declined her then officially perceased.

95
00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I suppose he could then go ahead with it,

96
00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,359
Speaker 1: or he could be still legally married. He's just a widow,

97
00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:53,440
Speaker 1: and that's right.

98
00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,440
Speaker 11: I did some title deed searches as well of the property,

99
00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,520
Speaker 11: of saying so crazy, all right, Yeah, it looks like

100
00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,640
Speaker 11: he sold that in ninety nine, which was interesting timing,

101
00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,760
Speaker 11: But just your investigations well underway by then.

102
00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,440
Speaker 1: The property was only in his day. I think you

103
00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:12,520
Speaker 1: knew that as well.

104
00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,760
Speaker 4: He would have gone about saying that she's vacated her

105
00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:23,720
Speaker 4: It's just so strong circumstantial case. There's no other reasonable

106
00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:28,840
Speaker 4: hypothesis that she's gone out the door that night, leaving

107
00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,880
Speaker 4: those two kids there, never to return again. Such a

108
00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:36,040
Speaker 4: good mother, you just wouldn't leave those kids. Everything tells

109
00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,960
Speaker 4: you there's been an incident in the home that night,

110
00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:41,880
Speaker 4: she's met with foul play.

111
00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:44,200
Speaker 1: Just every single thing points to it.

112
00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,200
Speaker 10: I da't believe for one moment that she made a

113
00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:51,520
Speaker 10: phone call and then somebody mysteriously just turns up and

114
00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,719
Speaker 10: he doesn't even look out the front to investigate who

115
00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,160
Speaker 10: it is or what cars she's getting him.

116
00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:01,599
Speaker 1: You I've wondered whether when you can't discover that Bromwin's

117
00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:06,120
Speaker 1: mother had disappeared, whether that had an impact on his thinking.

118
00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,960
Speaker 1: Shouldn't have, but whether it did. You just have to

119
00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:11,960
Speaker 1: do your normal things.

120
00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,200
Speaker 10: You would do an investigation even if they do turn

121
00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:15,960
Speaker 10: up a week.

122
00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,680
Speaker 1: Later or two weeks later. You should still do these things.

123
00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,680
Speaker 4: Zam and the scene, zam and the guard document document,

124
00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,000
Speaker 4: get a version of the person.

125
00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:32,280
Speaker 1: Like formerly, any of your statement. None of these things

126
00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:33,560
Speaker 1: were done now.

127
00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,360
Speaker 8: It's just not good police work at all and certainly

128
00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,200
Speaker 8: doesn't follow good investigative practices.

129
00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:47,239
Speaker 1: Neglect for laziness, however you want to put it before

130
00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,440
Speaker 1: going further. It is important to deal with the spearing

131
00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,600
Speaker 1: of a woman who is not around to defend her reputation.

132
00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:59,560
Speaker 1: Barbara Read, the mother of Bromwin, Kim and Andy. Barbara

133
00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,600
Speaker 1: would have turned eighty five this year. She died in

134
00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,480
Speaker 1: two thousand and six, four years after the then Deputy

135
00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,440
Speaker 1: State Coroner terminated an inquest and recommended that a murder

136
00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:15,040
Speaker 1: charge be leveled against Barbara's son in law, John Winfield.

137
00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,640
Speaker 1: Among the documents which have survived since the initial police

138
00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,280
Speaker 1: investigation in nineteen ninety three is a copy of Bromwin's

139
00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:28,640
Speaker 1: monthly telephone bill from Byron Street with itemized calls for Sunday,

140
00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:34,160
Speaker 1: May nine, it was Mother's Day. Bromwyn called Barbara at

141
00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,480
Speaker 1: her home in Tasmania, where she was living with Kim Marshall,

142
00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,600
Speaker 1: Barbara's youngest daughter. There is evidence of a number of

143
00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,760
Speaker 1: calls between Barbara and Bromwin. It appears they had a

144
00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:51,839
Speaker 1: fond relationship despite the separation. In Bromwin's formative years. Bromwyn

145
00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,800
Speaker 1: and Andy were unaware for much of their childhood of

146
00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,640
Speaker 1: their mother's existence. They were led to believe that Jennifer,

147
00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:04,160
Speaker 1: her father's second wife, was their mother. Kim told me

148
00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,559
Speaker 1: that her mother, Barbara, became unwell suddenly in two thousand

149
00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:12,400
Speaker 1: and six. She had pancreatic cancer and it must have

150
00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:17,440
Speaker 1: spread quickly. Kim wrote to me about Barbara's efforts to

151
00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,640
Speaker 1: see her grandchildren Crystal and Lauren before the cancer claimed her.

152
00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:26,240
Speaker 1: I asked Kim to read some of her note. It

153
00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:30,840
Speaker 1: describes Barbara's last days in two thousand and six. That

154
00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:35,960
Speaker 1: was thirteen years after her daughter vanished. By then, Christel

155
00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,560
Speaker 1: was twenty three, Lauren was eighteen.

156
00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:44,400
Speaker 12: Mum had wanted to travel up several times to Bronnie. However,

157
00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:50,000
Speaker 12: it never occurred. On the twenty fourth, we celebrated Ronnie's

158
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:55,400
Speaker 12: birthday on the ward, and after prompting her, Barbie agreed

159
00:09:55,559 --> 00:10:00,920
Speaker 12: to phone Jonathan, hoping to speak to Lauren and if

160
00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,680
Speaker 12: it would be possible for Lauren to come down to

161
00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:10,040
Speaker 12: see her. Unfortunately, Barbie's requests were denied. I recall her

162
00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:14,920
Speaker 12: holding herself with dignity, and she did weep. I know

163
00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:19,000
Speaker 12: she shed tears that afternoon as I stayed behind that

164
00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:23,520
Speaker 12: day and kept an eye over my beautiful mum until

165
00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,560
Speaker 12: her cares had got her ready for sleep. Her weeping

166
00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:32,440
Speaker 12: was silent, and as always, she did not complain nor

167
00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:37,480
Speaker 12: let her sadness overtake her. My mother was the most

168
00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:42,679
Speaker 12: graceful woman this day. Earlier, we had all cried from

169
00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:47,600
Speaker 12: our disappointments, and Barbie consoled us and guided.

170
00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:52,720
Speaker 5: Us to move onwards. She expressed that too much.

171
00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,120
Speaker 12: Time had passed and that it was probably best to

172
00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:57,960
Speaker 12: just let things be.

173
00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:04,840
Speaker 1: Kim Marshall has been an unstintingly loyal daughter. At the

174
00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,560
Speaker 1: same time, she is candid about her and her mother,

175
00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:12,000
Speaker 1: Barbara's mental health challenges. You'll recall that Kim was born

176
00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:17,160
Speaker 1: several years after Barbara's marriage to Philip had collapsed. Barbara

177
00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:21,240
Speaker 1: lost their two small children, Bromwin and Andy. At that time,

178
00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:26,720
Speaker 1: she must have been inconsolable. She was also mentally fragile.

179
00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:29,800
Speaker 1: She stayed out of their lives and left the mother

180
00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,959
Speaker 1: in to Philip's new wife, Jennifer. You heard Kim describe

181
00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,319
Speaker 1: her mother's version of some of the events in episode five.

182
00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,920
Speaker 12: As Brown moved from being a baby to a chiddler,

183
00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,880
Speaker 12: Philip was not at home as much, and then she

184
00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:51,480
Speaker 12: became pregnant with Andrew, and then Mums felt she had

185
00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:52,920
Speaker 12: developed postnatal depression.

186
00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:54,120
Speaker 5: After having Andrew.

187
00:11:55,000 --> 00:12:01,000
Speaker 12: Mum had multiple crisis situations going on in her life.

188
00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,760
Speaker 12: That's when her mental health became compromised and she probably

189
00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:10,280
Speaker 12: had what they described as a breakdown. The lawyer advised

190
00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,880
Speaker 12: that Mum would most likely be judged as an unfit

191
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:18,600
Speaker 12: mother due to the opinions of the Reed family, and

192
00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:23,119
Speaker 12: that she perhaps should actually not worry about contesting custody

193
00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,960
Speaker 12: because it would be a horrible case to have to

194
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,920
Speaker 12: go and attend court to go through, and it might

195
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,240
Speaker 12: be better if she just looks after her mother and

196
00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:36,760
Speaker 12: perhaps go is suggested. On an overseas traveling trip, for

197
00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,120
Speaker 12: a period of time to recover and recuperate and then

198
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:44,959
Speaker 12: return to Australia and then look at maybe perhaps making

199
00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:49,560
Speaker 12: connections with her children and building a new life. So

200
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:54,000
Speaker 12: much pressure in a woman's life, and she thought she

201
00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:58,600
Speaker 12: was making a sound decision based on the advice that

202
00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:01,720
Speaker 12: she had been given, and the you'd probably say the

203
00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:03,360
Speaker 12: lack of support.

204
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,000
Speaker 1: Andy and Kim have read the same transcript of interview

205
00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,560
Speaker 1: which I've been reproducing in this episode and the previous ones,

206
00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:16,120
Speaker 1: the transcript of John Winfield's interview in which certain things

207
00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,880
Speaker 1: stripped of their context were said about Barbara, their mother.

208
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,920
Speaker 1: I can't avoid it, but and you know what he says.

209
00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:29,000
Speaker 13: Anything he's actually asked about that night or anything about

210
00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:33,079
Speaker 13: Bromwin is very very deflective about. But all of a

211
00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,679
Speaker 13: sudden his memory is just raise or sharp on all

212
00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,760
Speaker 13: sorts of other major issues, including coming up with this

213
00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,599
Speaker 13: opinion the mum. And here he is just absolutely slandering

214
00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:48,880
Speaker 13: someone recorded interview with the police, a bit of the

215
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:50,319
Speaker 13: plot call and the kettle black.

216
00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:50,480
Speaker 1: Isn't it?

217
00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,559
Speaker 12: My mum didn't constitute herself. She was joining what I

218
00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,120
Speaker 12: would probably say was a feminist women's movement. She even

219
00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:03,880
Speaker 12: made a speech before she got unwell, and she also

220
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,480
Speaker 12: spoke about my conception at that introductory night that she

221
00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,120
Speaker 12: had to stand up in front of everyone, and everyone

222
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:11,320
Speaker 12: stood up and af Florida her.

223
00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:17,440
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, Kim does not have the speech. Now, perhaps Barbara

224
00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:22,480
Speaker 1: spoke freely without notes, but Barbara's statement to Detective Sergeant

225
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:28,320
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor has survived. It tells a remarkable story. Before

226
00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,920
Speaker 1: publishing it, Maddie and I decided to check to see

227
00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,400
Speaker 1: whether Kim would be okay about that. We were less

228
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,360
Speaker 1: apprehensive about Andy, who usually refers to his biological mother

229
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,760
Speaker 1: as Barbara and his stepmother as Mum.

230
00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,520
Speaker 12: I've had the most brilliant childhood with my mother. We

231
00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:50,080
Speaker 12: didn't have a car, we caught fusses, We've got lifts.

232
00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:51,120
Speaker 5: She took me to.

233
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:55,960
Speaker 12: Every single athletic event, probably for twenty years, and she

234
00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,360
Speaker 12: has hit so afit gp disorder.

235
00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,920
Speaker 1: Your mother as an account in her statement, and she

236
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,000
Speaker 1: also talks about your own conception.

237
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,840
Speaker 12: My mother being the incredible person that she was, she

238
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,360
Speaker 12: told me from the youngest age, I knew where I

239
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,560
Speaker 12: came from, why I came about, and I knew the

240
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:21,280
Speaker 12: reason that I was conceived. And I think I wore

241
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:22,880
Speaker 12: that with a badge of honors.

242
00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,960
Speaker 5: I was what kept her alive. I'd love to have

243
00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,280
Speaker 5: it heard, because Maddie, I know you're impartial.

244
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,760
Speaker 12: The Reed family actually uses the word abandonment. Really, I

245
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:39,080
Speaker 12: said to Headley in the podcast, I wore that because

246
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:40,720
Speaker 12: I have an objective.

247
00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,600
Speaker 5: I actually have been made to be so quiet and

248
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,440
Speaker 5: missy for so long. I just want the truth out so

249
00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:48,880
Speaker 5: I can actually let it all go.

250
00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,680
Speaker 12: It's not my place to get hysterical and upset about

251
00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:58,360
Speaker 12: people's past opinions or people's recollections. I want all the truth.

252
00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:03,800
Speaker 12: My mum's bought is going to be absolutely amazing. It's

253
00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,120
Speaker 12: going to help other women. She wanted to publish her

254
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,400
Speaker 12: life and her story, and she had started her.

255
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,680
Speaker 5: Writing what do you want going forward? For this case?

256
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,280
Speaker 12: With what I know now? Pushing the police and staying

257
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:24,040
Speaker 12: in constant contact with the police, my obligation is to

258
00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:46,880
Speaker 12: find Roman's body.

259
00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,360
Speaker 1: Six weeks after sitting down with John in the Ballana

260
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:57,920
Speaker 1: Police station, Detective Wayne Temby flew to Tasmania. This is

261
00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,800
Speaker 1: what Barbara Read, the mother of Rom, Kim and Andy,

262
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,119
Speaker 1: told him in nineteen ninety eight.

263
00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,840
Speaker 14: My age is fifty nine. I am a single woman.

264
00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:13,280
Speaker 14: After Bronwyn was born, I suffered severe postnatal depression. My

265
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,480
Speaker 14: husband Philip found out that I was sleeping in until

266
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,400
Speaker 14: ten am of a morning, and he and the other

267
00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,760
Speaker 14: reads did not like the fact that I was doing that,

268
00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,480
Speaker 14: so they arranged for me to see a psychiatrist. He

269
00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:27,919
Speaker 14: did various tests and it was discovered that I was

270
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:32,639
Speaker 14: suffering from loneliness in which led to depression. Philip was

271
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,160
Speaker 14: a real man's man, and he would go to work

272
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,080
Speaker 14: through the week and on weekends either play sport or

273
00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,080
Speaker 14: go to the hotel with his mates, while I stayed

274
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,080
Speaker 14: at home and watched bronwyin. I did exactly what doctor

275
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,679
Speaker 14: Lehmann told me to and I became well again. A

276
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,480
Speaker 14: short time later, I gave birth to a son named

277
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:55,000
Speaker 14: Andrew Philip. After Andrew's birth, I was still feeling very well,

278
00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,159
Speaker 14: although I was feeling a little bit run down and tired.

279
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,719
Speaker 14: In November nineteen sixty four, my father passed away, and

280
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,639
Speaker 14: I was very devastated because I came to lean on

281
00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,840
Speaker 14: my father whilst I was ill. Philip was never violent,

282
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:15,520
Speaker 14: but drank alcohol very heavily. At the end of the holidays,

283
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,560
Speaker 14: I returned to Wollongong with my mother and went to

284
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,760
Speaker 14: our house and there was no one home. I tried

285
00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,480
Speaker 14: to get in and all the locks were changed. I

286
00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,600
Speaker 14: then went to his parents' house at Ferry Meadow and

287
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:31,200
Speaker 14: Philip and Bronwyn and Andrew were there. At this time,

288
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,200
Speaker 14: Bronwyn was three years old and Andrew was five months old.

289
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,919
Speaker 14: I spoke to Philip and he told me that he

290
00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,760
Speaker 14: wasn't letting me into the home and that our marriage

291
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,640
Speaker 14: was over. His father told me that he would ring

292
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,240
Speaker 14: up a motel for me to stay in the night,

293
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,120
Speaker 14: and that I couldn't stay at their house or at

294
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,520
Speaker 14: my own home either. Mum and I stayed at the

295
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,880
Speaker 14: motel that night and headed for Sydney the next day.

296
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:02,480
Speaker 14: The legal proceedings then commenced in relation to custody of

297
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,560
Speaker 14: the children and the divorce. They told me that I

298
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,879
Speaker 14: would not stand a chance in a court because of

299
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,439
Speaker 14: my illness, and they were claiming that I was an

300
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:14,720
Speaker 14: unfit mother. My solicitor told me that I may get custody,

301
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,439
Speaker 14: but I knew what my mental state of mind was

302
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,880
Speaker 14: at the time, because it had deteriorated very quickly over

303
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,280
Speaker 14: the four weeks since Philip left me. I was well

304
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,480
Speaker 14: aware that I was in no condition to look after

305
00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,000
Speaker 14: the children by myself, and my mother, who was sixty

306
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,240
Speaker 14: four at the time, was too old to look after

307
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:36,000
Speaker 14: two small children. My mother decided that we should go

308
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,320
Speaker 14: overseas in an attempt to brighten me up and get

309
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,560
Speaker 14: me out of this deep depression I was in. Just

310
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,000
Speaker 14: prior to leaving to go overseas, I took an overdose

311
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,760
Speaker 14: of nembutale and nearly died, ending up in the intensive

312
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:54,320
Speaker 14: care unit of Monaval Hospital. Shortly afterwards, Philip sold our

313
00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:58,000
Speaker 14: house and forwarded me some money from the sale. He

314
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,160
Speaker 14: wanted to give me two thousand pound, but Iony asked

315
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,200
Speaker 14: for a thousand pound and requested that the other thousand

316
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:08,520
Speaker 14: pound be given to the children. In February nineteen sixty five,

317
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,359
Speaker 14: my mother and I went overseas to the United Kingdom.

318
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,119
Speaker 14: We traveled through Europe and then back to the United Kingdom,

319
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,200
Speaker 14: where I lived on the money that Philip had forwarded

320
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,320
Speaker 14: me from the sale of the house, and I remained

321
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,840
Speaker 14: working as a nanny in London for a further two years.

322
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,879
Speaker 14: During this period, my illness improved rapidly because of the

323
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,320
Speaker 14: assistance I was given from the family who employed me.

324
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,920
Speaker 14: I returned to Australia to my mother, who had moved

325
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,480
Speaker 14: to Tasmania. I stayed in Tasmania for a little while

326
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,720
Speaker 14: and attempted to take up nursing again. I saw numerous

327
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,920
Speaker 14: doctors during this period, and I was discharged after being

328
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:45,480
Speaker 14: diagnosed with schizophrenia.

329
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:48,040
Speaker 5: I then went to Sydney and.

330
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,000
Speaker 14: I decided that I wanted to have another child because

331
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:55,119
Speaker 14: I was unable to see my other two children. I

332
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,240
Speaker 14: went to King's Cross and walked the street, and over

333
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,879
Speaker 14: a period of three nights and four days, during the

334
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:08,160
Speaker 14: middle of my menstrual cycle, I had intercourse with eight

335
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:13,439
Speaker 14: different men who were all of European blood. I wanted

336
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 14: a child with European blood, so I picked three Italians,

337
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 14: one Yugoslavian, one Hungarian, one Englishman, an Australian, and one

338
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:31,240
Speaker 14: American from the streets around King's Cross. Shortly afterwards, I

339
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,920
Speaker 14: discovered I was pregnant, but I do not know which

340
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 14: one was the father. I later returned to my mother's

341
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,920
Speaker 14: place in Tasmania, and my mother, who was old fashioned,

342
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,360
Speaker 14: was a little bit of shamed that I had decided

343
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 14: to have an illegitimate child. I then went to a

344
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 14: friend's house at Melbourne and my daughter, Kim Marie, was

345
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:55,880
Speaker 14: born in the nineteenth of November nineteen seventy one. After

346
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,360
Speaker 14: Kim was born, my mother had forgiven me.

347
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 5: One PM.

348
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 14: One evening in nineteen seventy five, I received a phone

349
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,160
Speaker 14: call at home from my ex husband Philip. He told

350
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 14: me that my children wished to see me. I was

351
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,120
Speaker 14: thrilled because I had not seen them since nineteen sixty four.

352
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 14: Kim was four years old at the time, and I've

353
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 14: organized to fly both of us to Sydney and we

354
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 14: booked into the Wentworth Hotel. Philip told me that the

355
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,560
Speaker 14: children could stay over the weekend and he would pay

356
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 14: for the room alongside mine. We had a wonderful reunion

357
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 14: and we've kept in constant contact ever since. I've been

358
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 14: to Bronwyn's first wedding, and Andrew's wedding, and all the

359
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 14: grandchildren's christenings. Ever since, I go to Sydney and stay

360
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 14: with Andrew and his wife Michelle on a regular basis.

361
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 14: Bronwyn married a man by the name of John Winfield

362
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,239
Speaker 14: in a quiet ceremony in either Sydney or Ballina. I

363
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 14: didn't even know that they got married.

364
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 5: I was aware that.

365
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 14: In nineteen ninety they'd moved to Lennox Head on the

366
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,959
Speaker 14: north coast of New South Wales. In January nineteen ninety

367
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,399
Speaker 14: Andrew married Michelle in Sydney and I went over for

368
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 14: the wedding and I saw Bronwyn there. I hadn't spoken

369
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 14: to Bromwin for a long time, and my mother told

370
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 14: Bromwin that she was wrong for not contacting me. Brown

371
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 14: told my mother that she would keep in contact in

372
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 14: the future, and she did from then on. At the

373
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,400
Speaker 14: beginning of nineteen ninety three, I received a telephone call

374
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 14: from Bronwyn and she told me that she was very

375
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,399
Speaker 14: unhappy living with John and that she was of the

376
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,679
Speaker 14: opinion that John was having an affair. I asked her

377
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,680
Speaker 14: if she wanted me to fly over and help her,

378
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:36,880
Speaker 14: and she told me that things would be all right

379
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 14: and that she could cope. She told me not to

380
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 14: worry and said that she would battle on. A couple

381
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 14: of weeks later, I received a telephone call from Bronwyn

382
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 14: and she asked me if I could see my mother

383
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 14: and ask her for a loan of one thousand dollars.

384
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,440
Speaker 14: She told me that she wanted to move into a

385
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,159
Speaker 14: unit with the two children so that they could be

386
00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 14: away from John. I begged my mother, but she declined.

387
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 14: I got another phone call shortly afterwards, and she told

388
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 14: me that John was going to give her the thousand

389
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 14: dollars and that she was moving. She told me not

390
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 14: to worry, and that she would keep in touch and

391
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 14: let me know how she was going and where she

392
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 14: was living. On Mother's Day in nineteen ninety three, Bronwin

393
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,199
Speaker 14: rang me and told me that she was living in

394
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 14: a flat and she had the two girls, Cristel and Lauren,

395
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 14: with her. She supplied the address and telephone number, and

396
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 14: she appeared to be in reasonably good spirits. She did

397
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:39,719
Speaker 14: sound happy and very confident. About one week later, Bromwin

398
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 14: again rang me and told me that she was returning

399
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,120
Speaker 14: to the house and that John was going to move out.

400
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 14: She told me that she would finally be rid of him,

401
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 14: that he had been pestering her. She told me that

402
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 14: he wanted to move into the garage, but Bromwin was

403
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 14: not in agreement to that, and they had then decided

404
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 14: that he move out altogether. This was the last time

405
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 14: that I heard from Bronwyn, and a couple of weeks

406
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 14: later I was informed by the police that Bromwn was missing.

407
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,199
Speaker 14: I have rung John on a number of occasions and

408
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 14: he told me that on the night she disappeared, she

409
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,640
Speaker 14: went into the bedroom and made a phone call, put

410
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,439
Speaker 14: her purse under her arm, and walked out of the house.

411
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 14: She then got into a car which had pulled up outside,

412
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 14: and the car drove off, and that was the last

413
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 14: he had seen of her. He also told me during

414
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,679
Speaker 14: another telephone conversation that Bronwyn or someone had returned to

415
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 14: the home and taken Bronwyn's clothes and a jumper and

416
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 14: a pair of jenes of his. He also told me

417
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 14: that a Medicare check had been left on the kitchen table,

418
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,719
Speaker 14: which was signed by Bronwyn. I telephoned John Winfield when

419
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 14: I moved into my flat in Arthur Street two years

420
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 14: ago and told him my new address and telephone number

421
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 14: so that I could keep in contact with my grandchildren.

422
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 14: I have not heard from him since that time. I've

423
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 14: written numerous letters to him and the children, and none

424
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 14: of them have been answered. I know that Bronwin was

425
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 14: a devoted mother to the children, and I find it

426
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 14: extremely hard.

427
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 5: To believe that she would go off and leave.

428
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 14: Them both Crystal and Lauren were her whole life. I

429
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 14: can understand her not contacting me because she's done it

430
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 14: in the past, but she would most definitely contact the children.

431
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 14: I am of the belief that Bronwyn has met with

432
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 14: some form of foul play.

433
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: Among Barbara's letters and keepsakes was one written to her

434
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 1: by Bromwin's cousin Megan, and Meghan agreed to read some

435
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 1: of it for this episode.

436
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 15: I hope that this letter finds you, Kim, and your

437
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 15: mum all in the best of health, all as well

438
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 15: with Andrew Michelle. They told me they are hoping to

439
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 15: start a family, sir, which I think is wonderful. I

440
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 15: don't think that Robin really knows what she has in you.

441
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 15: I think that she's also very astraighted becoming too close

442
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 15: to you after all the pain of losing her dad.

443
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 15: Deep down inside, she's crying out for your love, and

444
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 15: I know that if she saw more of you, she

445
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 15: would greatly benefit from it.

446
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 1: Barbara's poignant story is a lot to take in her

447
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: mental health challenges starting in the nineteen sixties, when depression

448
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: was not well understood, the end of her marriage soon

449
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 1: after the loss of her home and her two very

450
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: small children, Bronwin and Andy, who didn't know about her

451
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: for years. All of it is very sad, but I

452
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 1: think that it helps explain some of Kim's motivations. In

453
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 1: addition to trying to get justice for her sister Bronwyn,

454
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: Kim is still honoring their mum, Barbara. On the outskirts

455
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 1: of Brisbane the morning of the release of this episode,

456
00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: Maddie and I walked to the top of a hill

457
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: and we talked about Barbara's lot in life, her children,

458
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 1: and her legacy. Maddie, when I think of Barbara in

459
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: the context of being Bromwin's mother, it's hard to avoid

460
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 1: some similarities and patterns.

461
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, definitely, Barbara disappeared from her kids' lives when they

462
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 6: were very young, and it was due to Barbara's mental

463
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 6: health issues. There's this pattern that kind of emerges here

464
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 6: where we see two young mums being pushed out of

465
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 6: their kids' lives. John created a bit of this pattern

466
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 6: because he created this idea that Bromwyn was going through

467
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 6: what her mother went through, these mental health challenges, and

468
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 6: that's why she left. We know with multiple witness recounts

469
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 6: and witness statements. Later on that Bromwin wasn't going through

470
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 6: what her mother went through. John created that and led

471
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 6: with that, and the police listen to that and believe that.

472
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 6: We can see how what happened to Barbara does tie

473
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 6: into the pattern of what happened to Bromwyn. We can

474
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 6: see even in the early nineties, it was just accepted

475
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 6: that Bromwyn wasn't doing well mentally and decided to leave

476
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:18,959
Speaker 6: her kids.

477
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 5: By the police.

478
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: It wasn't accepted by the family.

479
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 6: No, it wasn't accepted by the family. It wasn't accepted

480
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 6: by her friends. But the police just listened to John.

481
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 6: They just listened to her estranged husband.

482
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: And in that way, Barbara's known mental illness has been

483
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: recycled and exploited and transferred falsely to Bromwin as an

484
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 1: explanation for what's happened.

485
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 6: We know in the long run, Barbara did return and

486
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 6: she did reconnect with her kids when they were older,

487
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 6: and we know Bromwyn never came back. These are two

488
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 6: very different situations. She was fine, She loved her kids,

489
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 6: and she would never leave them. She was the one

490
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 6: that was with them every single day.

491
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 1: You've been a great help to me in helping navigate

492
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: some of the family tensions. But I look at it

493
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: in the context now of Barbara's life and of Kim

494
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: growing up in Tasmania with her mother. Her children didn't

495
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: even know of her existence until they were quite a

496
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: bit older. Kim's grown up with that. Kim must have

497
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: heard her mother describing this terrible time she had, her

498
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: perception of being completely sidelined because of her mental health.

499
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 6: It's a very difficult situation because there are so many

500
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 6: different sides to this story. You have Kim, who knew

501
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 6: Barbara as a mother, and then you have Andy and Bromwyn,

502
00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 6: who didn't know of Barbara until they were nine eleven

503
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 6: years old. Her growing up with Barbara and hearing Barbara

504
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 6: being pushed out of the kids' lives is it essentially

505
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 6: does look like abandonment. Barbara was going through some really

506
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 6: difficult things after she had from woman Andy. It wasn't

507
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 6: well understood back then. The way the reads would have

508
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 6: understood it would have been Barbara's not doing her motherly

509
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 6: duties and Barbara's not looking after her kids the way

510
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 6: she's supposed to. Pushing Barbara out of the kids' lives,

511
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 6: they would have felt was best for the kids. In

512
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 6: this situation, we kind of have to accept all sides

513
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 6: and know that everyone experienced a very tricky situation.

514
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: It wouldn't happen today where a woman, a mother of

515
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: two children who had depression was effectively written out of

516
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 1: their children's lives. Andy and Broman's dad, Philip, for whom

517
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: they had enormous regard, is not around anymore. We don't

518
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: know why he maintained this fiction to them that they

519
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: only had Jennifer as their mother, Jennifer being Philip's second wife.

520
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 6: These days, postparton depression and depression itself are very openly

521
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 6: accepted and very openly supported by families and doctors.

522
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: Many people would not want to talk so openly about

523
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: these kinds of family problems and even secrets. Kim, however,

524
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: has just been so candid and open about it. It

525
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: helps bring about understanding. But it's also important for Kim

526
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: for a range of reasons.

527
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 6: It's really important to Kim that she shares this and

528
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 6: she gets it out there to the wider community. A

529
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 6: lot of families go through all kinds of situations that

530
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 6: they feel may not be accepted by everyone. For Kim

531
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 6: to be so courageous and open about It could possibly

532
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 6: make people feel less alone in their situations, because we

533
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 6: know families have all kinds of skeletons and all kinds

534
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 6: of history that they could be ashamed of, and they

535
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 6: could be hard to accept.

536
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 5: Now that we're in a day and age.

537
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 6: Where this can be shared and accepted, I feel this

538
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 6: is what Kim needs.

539
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: Without the remarkable help of volunteers, this podcast investigation would

540
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: miss so much. The sharp intellect and common sense of

541
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: so many curious listeners is revealed time and again in

542
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: their emails to me and in their posts to the

543
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: Bromwin Facebook discussion group. The listeners who are doing their

544
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: own research to try to help are far too many

545
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: to list. I'll mention just a few now. Karina Berger,

546
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: from whom you've been hearing in recent episodes, and Susie

547
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: Newman in the subscriber only episodes eleven and twelve. And

548
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: there's a former police detective who would prefer that I

549
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: did not name her. She's been helping in all these revelations.

550
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: Most recently, there's Ella Bryant. After seeing one of Ella's

551
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: cut through posts, we spoke on the phone. It was

552
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 1: shortly before the release of this episode, and she confided

553
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: that Bromwin's case had kept her awake, it's compelled her

554
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: to consider all of the detail with great care. Ella

555
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: writes pages of notes at home after listening to the episodes.

556
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 1: I asked her to record some of her notes to

557
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: share them here. Too.

558
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 16: Admitted that the powers of an ADHD hyperfixation are at

559
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 16: play here for me, But I've lived in the Norman

560
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 16: River since the nineties, and I've recently self represented in

561
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,280
Speaker 16: a relatively complex court case. So my interest in Bronwin's

562
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 16: story and justice as a whole, I guess, have met

563
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 16: at a few unexpected intersections here. One thing that stood

564
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 16: out to me with the contradictions of memory, or the

565
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 16: selective nature of John's memory, specifically an interviewed by investigating

566
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 16: police when it comes to the hours, days, weeks, and

567
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 16: years surrounding Bronwin's disappearance, John can't recall anything of importance

568
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 16: when interviewed.

569
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: Well up until that point, hag you communicated to braun

570
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: One what you intended to do, whether you stay in

571
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: the family home.

572
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 2: Or Oh no, no, I just maybe there was, Oh,

573
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 2: I can't remember. Maybe there was a discussion about sleeping arrangements.

574
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 2: I don't know. I might have said I'll sleep on

575
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 2: the lounge. I don't know what I said. I really

576
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 2: can't remember.

577
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: But that was it.

578
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 2: You know, I had a couple of cups of tea.

579
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 2: I wasn't really sort of tired. I wasn't in a

580
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 2: sleeping sort of mood. And then like we heard a

581
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 2: car pull up, and she opened the front door, and

582
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 2: she was off, and she left the front door open,

583
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 2: and I heard the car go off up the hill.

584
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 16: No conversations, no arguments, very few detailed timelines that might

585
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 16: help the investigation. It's all sort of portrayed as a

586
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 16: blurred memory, especially the night she went missing.

587
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: Can you tell us what was talked about? I got

588
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 2: no idea. I can't remember what we talked about at

589
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 2: the moment. We may not even have had too much discussion.

590
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 2: I really can't remember, to tell you the truth, she

591
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 2: didn't ask me anything about Sydney. I didn't really ask

592
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 2: her anything about Lennox or probably about the kids, you know,

593
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:34,760
Speaker 2: just probably about the kids.

594
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 16: But he can recall, often years later, very specific things

595
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 16: like the amount of money that the bond cost for

596
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 16: the unit at Byron Street, which was six hundred dollars,

597
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 16: and the full name of the landlord being Shirley Taylor,

598
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 16: the balance of Bronwin's private bank account, which he couldn't access,

599
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 16: being one thousand dollars.

600
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 2: So I gave her money for the bond, and I

601
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:01,399
Speaker 2: made it out to the lady the the landlord down there,

602
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 2: Shirley Taylor. But later on I found out that she

603
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 2: did have money because Graham told me she had a grand.

604
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 1: In the bank.

605
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 16: The amount of money and child support that Bronwin had

606
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 16: asked John to transfer into Lauren's account monthly.

607
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,879
Speaker 2: At that stage, she was after me to put some

608
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 2: sort of one hundred and twenty five bucks or something

609
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 2: a month into Lauren's account, which I was sort of

610
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 2: negotiating with her to do like a child support sort

611
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 2: of thing.

612
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 16: The amount of money each clairvoyant session with Pendragon had

613
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 16: cost Bronwin being thirty dollars, and Pendragon's home street address

614
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 16: in Lenox.

615
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 2: Some guy that lives at Sunrise Place at Lenox Head.

616
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 2: She'd been seeing him for quite a while apparently, and

617
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 2: at one stage she said to one of her girlfriends

618
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 2: that she thought this clairvoyant was her father, you know,

619
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 2: sort of like I said, her father's already passed away

620
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 2: years ago. Apparently she used to pay this bloke thirty

621
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 2: dollars a pop.

622
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 16: The month and year that Bronwin allegedly had a nervous breakdown,

623
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 16: including the names of two doctors who he suggested had

624
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 16: treated her for depression.

625
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:13,720
Speaker 1: She reckons.

626
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 2: She told me just before we separated that she had

627
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 2: a nervous breakdown in the January of nineteen ninety three,

628
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 2: all right, and I said to her, you know, what's

629
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 2: a nervous breakdown? And she went to see the doctor

630
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 2: in Lennox. I don't know if it was doctor Watson

631
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 2: or doctor Hughes.

632
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 16: The full name of the solicitor that he knew Bronwyn

633
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 16: had seen in Balana.

634
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 2: Graham told me that she'd spoken to a guy in Ballina,

635
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 2: Tony Mannering, the.

636
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 16: Suburb where Jacko's mother lived in Sydney, and.

637
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 2: Apparently from what her girlfriends had told me, that she'd

638
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 2: sort of sort of fallen for this Jacko bloke, you know.

639
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 2: And I think Graham contacted him at Brera. I'm not

640
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 2: one hundred percent, but I know someone told me his

641
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 2: mother lives at Barrow in Sydney, the.

642
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 16: Time of day being two pm. That Bronwin had organized

643
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 16: removalists to collect her things from Sandstone Crescent when she

644
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 16: moved out, Bronwin's mother's mental health diagnosis, the country she

645
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 16: fled to, which was England, and the number of years

646
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 16: she was gone. I am trying to make sense of

647
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,439
Speaker 16: these things. I wonder how John can claim that both

648
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 16: things are true, that he does remember, and also that

649
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 16: he doesn't. The things that John does recollect seem to

650
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 16: serve only his version of events, rather than being of

651
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 16: much use to the investigating police or family. We know

652
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 16: that humans more often than not remember their traumas we

653
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 16: store it. We often relive it. Even if we assume

654
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 16: that John's version of events is true, your wife living

655
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 16: in the middle of the night and never being seen

656
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 16: again would be a pivotal moment in your adult life.

657
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 16: At the very least, it's an unforgettable event. John is

658
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 16: able to recall full names, bank account balances, street addresses

659
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 16: of people, some time relative strangers, as well as phone

660
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 16: calls made from the house, conversations that he had with

661
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 16: the police, including the contents of those conversations. It seems

662
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 16: plausible that he could remember more about, perhaps the conversations

663
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 16: that we had the night that Bronwin went missing.

664
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,320
Speaker 1: He is Andy's wife, Michelle.

665
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 5: And I thought, yeah, you've got the memory when you wanted,

666
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 5: haven't you.

667
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: Karina Berger, who has experienced as a lawyer in coronial investigations,

668
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: summarized John's interview this way.

669
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 5: It was very.

670
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 17: Difficult to understand and really unpleasant to read, because it's

671
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 17: just all over the shop and sort of quite nonsensical

672
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 17: in places. And he seemed to have a very poor

673
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 17: recollection and be a very poor historian. But then all

674
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 17: of a sudden he pinpoints with quite a bit of

675
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:53,320
Speaker 17: accuracy this time or Bronwin left it about accorded to midnight.

676
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 2: Because I came back on the Sunday and she left

677
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:01,399
Speaker 2: on the Sunday night about midnight, is that right? I mean,

678
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, after the phone calls that she

679
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 2: apparently made, you know, I heard a car pull up.

680
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 2: I was sitting there at the dining room table and

681
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 2: she was in the bedroom and a car pulled up,

682
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 2: and I mean she opened the front door and she

683
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:18,919
Speaker 2: was off.

684
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 1: That was it. What time was that, Vina?

685
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 2: About quarters to midnight? I think eleven o'clock. I don't know,

686
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:32,359
Speaker 2: you know, it's probably down there somewhere, which I.

687
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 17: Just found really owed, and then I started to think

688
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 17: about it, and I thought, well, hang on, Jude's up

689
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 17: in the night on the balcony says that he and

690
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 17: her more or less locked eyes as he went past.

691
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 17: So whether knowing that and having had that visual contact

692
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 17: with her, he's then trying to put in their minds

693
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 17: that any reference to that car at that time is

694
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 17: actually Bronwin leaving rather than him going.

695
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 5: Himself with her.

696
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 17: Jude does say it was about midnight, but I just

697
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 17: wonder why would he hone in on that time? How

698
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 17: would he know that time when he otherwise says, oh,

699
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 17: I was just sitting around drinking cups of tea, and

700
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 17: I don't know what we spoke about or what we

701
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 17: did or who did what, or it's so vague. But

702
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 17: for that detail, your.

703
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 1: Theory is that possibly John's aware or suspects that Judy

704
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: Singh has gone to the police told them what she's

705
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 1: seen around midnight, and he knows that someone was up

706
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 1: around midnight and he saw that person, and so he's

707
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: trying to work out how to deal with that, and

708
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 1: therefore he thinks he'll offer the idea that Bromin was

709
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 1: leaving around midnight so that the police will think, oh, okay,

710
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 1: there's the explanation for what this witness who's come forward

711
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: has said. John had previously told the police that Bromin

712
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: left around nine nine point thirty. He told the police

713
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: in the earlier investigation in ninety three that how would

714
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: he be able to reconcile those two really different times.

715
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 17: These investigators didn't pick him up on that and say, well,

716
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 17: five years ago he said it was at nine o'clock.

717
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,359
Speaker 17: Why have you now adjusted the timeframe.

718
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 1: We don't know now whether detectives Taylor and Temby were

719
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 1: silent about the discrepancy for tactical reasons, or whether they

720
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,359
Speaker 1: were just unaware of it at that stage.

721
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 17: And then, of course the other problem is, well, Judy's evidence, presumably,

722
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 17: if she'd been spoken to at that time, would have

723
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 17: been well, I saw John, it was John. It would

724
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 17: have just been his word against hers.

725
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 1: He offers that time, and then he asks them the

726
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: question is that right? It's almost like he's seeking information

727
00:43:58,320 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 1: from them.

728
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 17: Strike me that he was giving truthful answers to those questions.

729
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 17: When you're trying to reconstruct and you've already reconstructed five

730
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 17: years earlier, it sort of gets harder as you go

731
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 17: along in your memory fades because you don't have an

732
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 17: actual memory of the events, you have your earlier story.

733
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 1: Throughout this series, the woman formerly known as Melissa Reid

734
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:48,359
Speaker 1: has hovered in and around the evidence in Broman's case

735
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 1: without appearing in person. Melissa was a big part of

736
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: Broman's life and Brommin was a big part of hers.

737
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: They lived together in the Shire as children. They stayed

738
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 1: close through adulthood. I've read Melissa's police statement from nineteen

739
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: ninety eight, and I've read multiple references to her in

740
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,840
Speaker 1: the statements of others. But for many years since the

741
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 1: two thousand and two inquest in Lizmore, Melissa has lived

742
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 1: her life separately. Andy Kim, Meghan, and other members of

743
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 1: the Reed family have not been a part of that life.

744
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 1: Before any episodes were aired, I questioned Meghan, what about Melissa?

745
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 1: Why isn't she involved?

746
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 15: She's got a strong will, should always come over, very smart,

747
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:39,359
Speaker 15: always immaculate, quick wishes. I think Melissa would read more

748
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 15: than happy to talk to you through the fire.

749
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: Three months before the release of the first episode of Bromwin,

750
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: Maddie was perplexed too, has your mom or anyone said me.

751
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 1: More about Melissa.

752
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 6: No, nothing. We still don't know where she is. I

753
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,959
Speaker 6: think she just kind of cut herself off. I don't

754
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 6: know who has contact with her, If anyone has contact

755
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 6: with her, does Andrew know?

756
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: When I found and then telephoned Melissa near the start

757
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: of season two to ask her about being a part

758
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:18,399
Speaker 1: of this series. She was surprised, moved, but wanting very

759
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 1: much to do her bit to try to help by

760
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 1: painting her own picture of what she saw and heard.

761
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: You told me that you needed to explain to your

762
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:33,359
Speaker 1: son that you had a sister. That must have been difficult.

763
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 1: Has it gone okay?

764
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 5: It's come as a surprise, but it's done now. It's

765
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 5: a conversation I've been thinking about having since returning to

766
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 5: Australia because I didn't want somebody else to say something

767
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 5: to him without me, as in his mother explaining the background,

768
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,280
Speaker 5: he always had a feeling that there was something.

769
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,399
Speaker 1: Well, I'm really glad that you've agreed to this, and

770
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 1: I know I called you out of the blue a

771
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 1: few days ago, and I must have been the surprise

772
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 1: it did. But it sounds like you had been weighing

773
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: coming forward yourself anyway.

774
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 5: I'd listened to the podcast. I wasn't sure whether I

775
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 5: could contribute, and I thought I would just leave it

776
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 5: and see how things unfolded. And here we are.

777
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 1: Can you describe Bromman as your sibling? What she was

778
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 1: like growing up?

779
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 5: There was never any reference to step brother or half sister.

780
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:41,720
Speaker 5: She's my sister. It was always quite a strong family unit.

781
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 5: We had a holiday house. We would all go to

782
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 5: the beach and Bromwin would make friends. When Barbara decided

783
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 5: to re emerge, I think that put strain on the

784
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 5: family unit. I was young, but I remember when she

785
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:04,760
Speaker 5: suddenly appeared, and certainly for me, it was a big shock,

786
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:09,359
Speaker 5: and I can only imagine it was for Andrew and

787
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 5: for Broman.

788
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 1: I haven't heard anyone in the Read family say a

789
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:18,359
Speaker 1: bad word about Melissa in my conversations with her. She

790
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:23,319
Speaker 1: has expressed only respectful and supportive statements about her Read relations.

791
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 1: But families are baffling sometimes for whatever reason, there has

792
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 1: been a long term distancing, and who knows, maybe that

793
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: might change with Melissa stepping forward. Now you've had time

794
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: now to read your police statement from all those years ago. Yes,

795
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 1: what do you think? Having read that and having reflected

796
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 1: on everything over the decades since.

797
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 5: To listen to the podcast brings up a lot of

798
00:48:56,000 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 5: emotions and frustrations, anger, probably even a little bit of guilt.

799
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 1: When John and Brommin first started seeing each other and

800
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: you met John, what do you recall observing and telling Bromen.

801
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 5: I was very close with Brohmen. We spent a lot

802
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 5: of time together, and when John arrived it did put

803
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 5: pressure on our friendship. From the get go, there was

804
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 5: always an element of control. I think it might have

805
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 5: been a little bit of jealousy for any sort of

806
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 5: friendships that broman may have had, which I learned to

807
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 5: work with because I wanted to continue to have a

808
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 5: relationship with Bromwn and Crystal. At the time, I said

809
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 5: to Bromwyn, he seems a little bit, a little bit

810
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 5: possessive probably is the word. She sort of glossed over it.

811
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 5: I suppose to some extent she'd met somebody she was

812
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 5: in this new relationship she was polar opposite to certainly

813
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 5: the relationship she had with John, where John was a

814
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 5: lot more closed. I had to learn to work hard

815
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:28,839
Speaker 5: at creating a rapport friendship. Whatever you wish to call

816
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,399
Speaker 5: up with John, we talked about it, and I had

817
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 5: to work hard at getting along with John. If I

818
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 5: wanted to have a friendship relationship with my sister, I

819
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 5: had to get along with John. He was my sister's husband.

820
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 5: I had to make it work, so I did. That's

821
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 5: why I went to Lennox Head. I stayed in the house.

822
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 5: I stayed there six weeks after she disappeared.

823
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: In the previous episode, you heard Kim Marshall describing having

824
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:58,760
Speaker 1: stayed in the house in Sandstone Crescent as a twenty

825
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 1: year old single woman in June nineteen ninety three and

826
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:08,280
Speaker 1: Melissa's concern about that. In Kim's nineteen ninety eight police statement,

827
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: she disclosed that John was emotional when Bromwin's name came up.

828
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 1: Over those ten days that Kim was there.

829
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 12: I rang Bromwin and told her of my plans, and

830
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:22,240
Speaker 12: she was very excited that I was coming over to visit.

831
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 12: She told me what she had planned for us to do.

832
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 12: When I arrived, she appeared to be in good spirits

833
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 12: and seemed to be very happy that she had finally

834
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 12: left John. She also told me about a man named

835
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 12: Adam Brook who she was getting advice from, and she

836
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 12: told me that she wasn't involved with him at that stage,

837
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 12: but she was thinking about it.

838
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 1: Kim is talking here about the tarot card reader David Adenbrook.

839
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 12: She told me that he had been so kind and

840
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 12: nice to her and was assisting.

841
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:57,720
Speaker 5: Her with all her problems.

842
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 12: She also told me that she was getting advice from

843
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 12: a solicitor about custody and settlement matters. Whilst I stayed

844
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:08,760
Speaker 12: at John's house, I had numerous conversations with him about

845
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 12: Broman's disappearance. He told me that they didn't have a

846
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 12: fight on that night, and that she got picked up

847
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 12: by someone and left of her own accord, taking only

848
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 12: her handbag. As soon as we started talking about Bromwin,

849
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 12: he would become very distant and would often cry while

850
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 12: talking about her. I recall him telling me that she

851
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 12: had been running around town on the back of a

852
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:35,760
Speaker 12: motorbike and was flirting with all the men around town.

853
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 12: He also told me that she had been talking to

854
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 12: herself and mumbling, and I recalled John asking what symptoms

855
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 12: my mother had when she initially suffered from schizophrenia. He

856
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 12: also told me that Bromwin thought that he was having

857
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:51,760
Speaker 12: an affair with someone else.

858
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,840
Speaker 1: Melissa was aged twenty four and she turned up in

859
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 1: June with her then boyfriend Craig. She had a protector

860
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 1: and Melissa, like Kim, had lots of questions about what

861
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 1: had unfolded on the night of May sixteen. Do you

862
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:14,400
Speaker 1: recall feeling apprehensive or concerned about staying in the house

863
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: so soon after she had disappeared.

864
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:22,839
Speaker 5: I can stay in the house with John alone. I

865
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 5: was also curious. Rereading the police report drogged my memory,

866
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,840
Speaker 5: and yes, I had been up in Lennox Head about

867
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 5: six weeks after Bromin had disappeared, which was always being

868
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 5: planned to go and visit her and the girls, and

869
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 5: being there even then was difficult. There was a piece

870
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 5: of me that wanted to suppose snoop is probably the

871
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 5: wrong word, but certainly the response and the behavior of

872
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:54,839
Speaker 5: John even after six weeks was quite typically John in

873
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 5: that he just didn't want to talk about it or

874
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 5: discuss it, certain not in front of the children, which

875
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:03,320
Speaker 5: was always the excuse. Not in front of the children,

876
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:05,840
Speaker 5: but even when the children were not there, he didn't

877
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 5: want to engage about it. After the initial shock of

878
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 5: how she apparently left and disappeared, lots of questions came up,

879
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 5: A lot of questions about how she left, who she

880
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 5: left with, why John didn't even look out the window.

881
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 5: It didn't make any sense. Of course, he would have

882
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 5: John been John. He would have wanted to know exactly

883
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 5: where she was going, and who she was going with,

884
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 5: and what she was doing, because that was who he

885
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:37,800
Speaker 5: was by nature.

886
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 1: Did Roman tell you in any particularized detail why she

887
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 1: had finally decided that's it. I'm definitely leaving him over.

888
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 1: I can't deal with this anymore.

889
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 5: Headley, This had been coming for a period of time.

890
00:54:56,560 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 5: She just needed to have that financial and emotion or strengths.

891
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 5: Was that the part time job at the takeaway shop.

892
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 5: I think that started to get her feeling a little

893
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 5: little bit more financially independent, but also making those connections

894
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 5: with people that worked at the store with her and

895
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 5: also potential customers. That job was the catalyst for her

896
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:26,319
Speaker 5: to start thinking, Okay, I'm starting to get a little

897
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 5: bit more independence here. I think I can do this.

898
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 5: A situation that I think had become over the years

899
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:37,799
Speaker 5: just too controlled. It was too hard.

900
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:43,839
Speaker 1: In the final months and weeks and days before she disappeared,

901
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:46,320
Speaker 1: you were having contact with her.

902
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 5: Regular conversations, but I can only from the conversations we

903
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:58,800
Speaker 5: had understand that things had escalated and she just couldn't

904
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:02,800
Speaker 5: cope with the way she was living in that home

905
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 5: any longer and she had to get out. And he

906
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:11,880
Speaker 5: wouldn't have liked that she had moved out of the

907
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 5: marital home. She finally made that decision to leave, which

908
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:22,919
Speaker 5: was very hard. I mean, she didn't have a lot

909
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 5: of income. She had managed to create some friendships in

910
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 5: Lennox Head, which were obviously a wonderful support to her,

911
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:38,799
Speaker 5: but she was certainly sounding very positive in terms of

912
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 5: taking that next step away from John and everything that

913
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 5: that included.

914
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 1: You also observed his very tight grip on the finances.

915
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 5: Oh, he'd always been like that since the day ago.

916
00:56:55,080 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 5: He was very very conscious of spend and what she

917
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:07,840
Speaker 5: received in terms of money. It was always just enough.

918
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:11,760
Speaker 5: But again that was probably all part of the control.

919
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:15,359
Speaker 5: But as a consequence, naturally she didn't have a lot

920
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 5: to step away from that home and that marriage and

921
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 5: go into the townhouse that she did move into. She

922
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 5: would have been struggling to make it work and make

923
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:31,520
Speaker 5: ends meet. The excitement soon wore off, I think in

924
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 5: terms of the financial obligations that go with rent and

925
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:39,440
Speaker 5: supporting two young children.

926
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 1: And when she was planning to move back into the

927
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 1: house on Sandstone Crescent from the Byron Street flat. Were

928
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 1: you aware of that intention?

929
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 5: Do you recall John was in Sydney. I don't find

930
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 5: his response at all surprising in terms of leaving Sydney

931
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 5: immediate and going straight back up to the home, because

932
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 5: the home was always such a priority for John in

933
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 5: terms of financially and building it. I was not surprised

934
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 5: that he went straight back. I think she knew that

935
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:16,640
Speaker 5: there was going to be a level of risk that

936
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 5: his response would be quite extreme. Andrew was quite adamant

937
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:27,760
Speaker 5: that yes, it was within her rights to move back

938
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 5: into the home, which he was correct in making that

939
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 5: sort of summation.

940
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 1: Part of his guilt is around persuading Roman that she

941
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:41,680
Speaker 1: was within her rights to go back to the house.

942
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:44,080
Speaker 1: Why do you feel some guilt?

943
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 5: But we didn't do more. He didn't go to the

944
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 5: police because she was coming back. He kept saying she's

945
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 5: coming back. She never came back. Was it buying time?

946
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 5: I don't know. Was he getting his thoughts together? Yes,

947
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:02,160
Speaker 5: I remember with the Petro Street which was just left field.

948
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 1: He arrived at Andy and Michelle's on the Monday afternoon.

949
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 5: I remember being in their lounge room. I can recall

950
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 5: John and the girls being there. It was within the

951
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 5: first day or two, because I got the call from

952
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:20,320
Speaker 5: Michelle to say John's here with the girls and Bromin's

953
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 5: gone away for a week. What things are bad up there?

954
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 5: But she's gone away, not without the kids. It's very

955
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:37,880
Speaker 5: hard to know how you respond when somebody one day

956
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 5: isn't there anymore. I wish that I had gone straight

957
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 5: up there. I wish that we'd pushed the police to

958
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 5: do more. It begs believes that they didn't once go

959
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 5: and look at the car. Absolutely, if I had my

960
00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:00,120
Speaker 5: time again, I would have gone straight up there, one

961
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 5: hundred percent, without a doubt. I would have literally gone

962
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 5: straight away. John took a long time to report this,

963
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 5: Andrew was pushing him to do it again. I think distance,

964
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 5: the tyranny of distance. We were in Sydney. It all

965
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 5: happened in Lennox Head and it had already been quite separate.

966
01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:24,000
Speaker 5: John had taken everybody up there and started a new life.

967
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:27,120
Speaker 5: And yes we'd talked, but no we didn't see them

968
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 5: as often. No excuses. I mean, I feel guilty now

969
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 5: you live with the guilt. You live with the guilt

970
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:38,680
Speaker 5: guilt around not spending more time with those girls. He

971
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 5: certainly didn't go out of his way to allow them

972
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:49,920
Speaker 5: to have time with us. His response to the gradual

973
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 5: discussion and innuendo that there was more to it than

974
01:00:55,920 --> 01:01:00,080
Speaker 5: John was suggesting. So, of course that drover a wedge.

975
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:05,200
Speaker 5: I probably took the easy road. I decided to leave

976
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:08,800
Speaker 5: Australia and I moved to the other side of the

977
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 5: world where nobody knew about it. And in fact, there'll

978
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 5: be a lot of people that are in my life

979
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 5: now who will be very, very surprised if I ever

980
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:20,560
Speaker 5: share this with them. It's something you never get over.

981
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:23,920
Speaker 5: It's there with you every day you look for faces

982
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:30,480
Speaker 5: in a crowd, slowly hope faiths. It leaves a big hole.

983
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:37,760
Speaker 5: Just to hear her voice was a real trigger for me.

984
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:41,800
Speaker 1: Melissa is recalling episode three. It featured Bromwan in a

985
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 1: documentary talking about her father Phillip's fight to survive after

986
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 1: a liver transplant.

987
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:53,320
Speaker 18: Bronwin, forever optimistic, looks for signs of progress and tries

988
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 18: to reinforce her father's own will to live, but his

989
01:01:57,080 --> 01:01:59,640
Speaker 18: system is tiring and breaking down.

990
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 3: And some days if better than others. You know, if

991
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:05,720
Speaker 3: I think he's responding, sometimes you have link or wink

992
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:09,480
Speaker 3: or made his head. If I think he's responding, it

993
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:11,800
Speaker 3: makes me feel a lot better. But all I ever

994
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:14,600
Speaker 3: telling him is that he's going to get better. This

995
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:16,120
Speaker 3: sort of thing said, he'd want to hear you know

996
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:20,080
Speaker 3: that he's leaves functioning kidneys so fine, you know, and

997
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:23,760
Speaker 3: that his heart's still it's and that he's can kill.

998
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:29,760
Speaker 18: Two weeks now since the second transplant, and Philip continues

999
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:32,440
Speaker 18: to hang on to life with the frailess thread.

1000
01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 1: He's a good work, isn't he.

1001
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 5: Here's the best best when you haven't heard a voice

1002
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 5: for so long and you hear the voice that almost

1003
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:45,560
Speaker 5: brings it to life again. I think it was really

1004
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:49,720
Speaker 5: hard for Bromin because we lost our father. She was

1005
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 5: very close to our father. He was almost hid you

1006
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 5: north her support. He supported her a lot, and for

1007
01:02:57,760 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 5: the first time Brobin started to step out alone.

1008
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:05,720
Speaker 1: In Melissa's nineteen ninety eight police statement, she emphasized John's

1009
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:09,560
Speaker 1: possessiveness and what she described back then as his jealousy

1010
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 1: and controlling nature. In the same statement, she recalled that

1011
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 1: Bromwin pleaded with her to come to Lennox, and Melissa

1012
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:19,640
Speaker 1: formed the view that her sister was on a high

1013
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 1: because of her new found freedom. Bromwan told Melissa about

1014
01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 1: meeting a man at Eden's Takeaway and of a bottle

1015
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:30,320
Speaker 1: of champagne being left on her doorstep because she had

1016
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:33,960
Speaker 1: been so down, but at the same time, Bromwin appeared

1017
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:39,200
Speaker 1: frightened about being alone. Melissa told Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor

1018
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:43,960
Speaker 1: that Bromwin had always had what Melissa called a male dependability,

1019
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:48,360
Speaker 1: and sometimes in their telephone chats, Melissa concluded that her

1020
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:51,760
Speaker 1: older sister had been drinking wine, which was very unusual

1021
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 1: for Bromwin, another indication to Melissa of the difficulties being experienced.

1022
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:00,640
Speaker 5: I think it's wonderful what Andrew has done. He has

1023
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:05,560
Speaker 5: been relentless. I admire everything that he's done in his

1024
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:09,920
Speaker 5: efforts to find our sister. When I read a couple

1025
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:16,520
Speaker 5: of messages from members of the family that had tried

1026
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 5: to reach out to encourage me to step forward and

1027
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:31,840
Speaker 5: become involved, it was very hard because the emotions come

1028
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:39,000
Speaker 5: up immediately. So certainly the podcast has been a trigger

1029
01:04:39,160 --> 01:04:43,040
Speaker 5: to reflect and think about what could have been what

1030
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 5: could have happened.

1031
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 1: Did it seem to you that when she was living

1032
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:49,800
Speaker 1: in those Byron Street flats and you were talking to

1033
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:53,800
Speaker 1: her during that separation period, that she was wavering or

1034
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:55,800
Speaker 1: do you believe she had made her mind up and

1035
01:04:55,880 --> 01:04:59,440
Speaker 1: she was moving on. She definitely wanted to remain separated

1036
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 1: and old Lee to divorce John because.

1037
01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:08,520
Speaker 5: She was already talking about somebody else. I'm sure that

1038
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:11,600
Speaker 5: would have been very hard for John to understand there

1039
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:13,960
Speaker 5: was somebody at a party and she'd been talking to

1040
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:18,000
Speaker 5: this person. That would have driven John absolutely perserve to

1041
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:22,120
Speaker 5: think that Bromin was going to move on with somebody new.

1042
01:05:23,040 --> 01:05:25,360
Speaker 5: I would say that his world was already rocked by

1043
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:30,320
Speaker 5: the fact that he was being replaced. Yeah, she was.

1044
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:32,000
Speaker 5: She was done with John.

1045
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:49,720
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as

1046
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:54,480
Speaker 1: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information

1047
01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:58,520
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me

1048
01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:05,040
Speaker 1: confidentially emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.

1049
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:08,680
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a

1050
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:13,160
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bromwyn

1051
01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:19,480
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.

1052
01:06:20,080 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,

1053
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:30,680
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiet, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,

1054
01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:35,400
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen and Matthew Condon and David Murray.

1055
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:40,080
Speaker 1: Audio production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio

1056
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:44,680
Speaker 1: and original theme music by Slade Gibson. We have been

1057
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:49,040
Speaker 1: assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation of Bromwin Winfield. We

1058
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:52,040
Speaker 1: can only do this kind of journalism with the support

1059
01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:56,080
Speaker 1: of our subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey Norman.

1060
01:06:56,840 --> 01:07:01,000
Speaker 1: For all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines and

1061
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:05,680
Speaker 1: documents about this podcast and other podcasts, including The Teacher's Pet,

1062
01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:10,520
Speaker 1: The Teacher's Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy's Story, Shandy's Legacy,

1063
01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:14,560
Speaker 1: and The Night Driver. Go to the Australian dot com

1064
01:07:14,600 --> 01:07:21,919
Speaker 1: dot au and subscribe,