Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series contains course language
Speaker 1: and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to you
Speaker 1: by me Hedley Thomas and The Australian. Before the start
Speaker 1: of formal proceedings in front of the public on the
Speaker 1: third day of the five day inquest, John Winfield and
Speaker 1: his lawyer Craig Leggett must have been busy. When everyone
Speaker 1: sat down in the old courtroom in Lismore. The police
Speaker 1: officer Matt Fordham wrote to tell the Deputy State Coroner
Speaker 1: what had been unfolding behind the scenes.
Speaker 2: So I should indicate at the outset I've been handed
Speaker 2: by my friend a statutory declaration by Jonathan Winfield dated
Speaker 2: today in relation to the property settlement for his first
Speaker 2: two marriages.
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett then stood to explain exactly what he was
Speaker 1: submitting on behalf of his client.
Speaker 3: Just before my friend leaves that new worship. The gist
Speaker 3: of it is that in relation to the first marriage
Speaker 3: to Jenny Mason, there was no house involved in the
Speaker 3: property dissolution. It was only a matter of cash. There
Speaker 3: was no property was either owned or acquired during the marriage,
Speaker 3: so there was no house capable of being transferred John's
Speaker 3: lawyer added that in relation to John's second wife, the
Speaker 3: woman we've been calling D, there was in fact a
Speaker 3: property on the lower eastern end of Sandstone Crescent. This
Speaker 3: was not the property which John and Bromwin had built
Speaker 3: and lived in together higher up the street. It was
Speaker 3: sold prior to the divorce separation for eighty thousand dollars,
Speaker 3: the vacant block of land having been purchased for thirty
Speaker 3: five thousand dollars. Of the eighty thousand dollars, twenty thousand
Speaker 3: dollars was repaid to the mortgagee, which was the Saint
Speaker 3: George Bank. As to the balance, fifty thousand dollars went
Speaker 3: to mister Winfield.
Speaker 1: In other words, D received ten thousand dollars from a
Speaker 1: pool of sixty thousand dollars. The Deputy state Coroner, Karl Milivanovitch,
Speaker 1: was not told about that by John's lawyer. However, he
Speaker 1: must have assumed that D's written statement from when she
Speaker 1: spoke to Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor in nineteen ninety eight
Speaker 1: would have been read and understood by Karl. Here is
Speaker 1: a snippet of D's interview with me from episode three. D,
Speaker 1: of course, is not the real name of John's second wife.
Speaker 1: It is a pseudonym because when she spoke, she was
Speaker 1: anxious to mark ask her identity. She had not even
Speaker 1: told her daughters that she had been married to John Winfield.
Speaker 4: And you moved to Lennox Head with him.
Speaker 5: Yeah, we had a good time up there, but we
Speaker 5: actually bought a house up at Sandstone President.
Speaker 1: And then you say John was quite bitter about the
Speaker 1: settlement following our separation.
Speaker 6: Yeah, because he had to sell a house.
Speaker 1: You say John didn't want to give me anything. No, well,
Speaker 1: how would that have worked out?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 7: Well, that's why I had to go. I went to court.
Speaker 1: I had to get a solicitor and go to court
Speaker 1: to get my share of the property.
Speaker 5: Yeah, we went to court and it was sort of
Speaker 5: out in court.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer said he also got a car and household furniture.
Speaker 3: So it's certainly not accurate to say that two houses
Speaker 3: have been lost to two previous wives based on the facts.
Speaker 1: As I'm instructed, Craig Leggett made an interesting point. It
Speaker 1: was it seemed quite true that Jenny Mason and John
Speaker 1: Winfield had not owned a house together when they ended
Speaker 1: the relationship. And that's despite several witnesses giving evidence that
Speaker 1: John himself had described having lost two houses to his
Speaker 1: partners from failed relationships prior to his marriage to Bromwin.
Speaker 1: For me, the inescapable point is that John always came
Speaker 1: out well in front at the end of a relationship.
Speaker 4: In Bromwin's case, John got everything. With this bit of.
Speaker 1: Legal housekeeping attended to matt Fordham greeted the first witness
Speaker 1: of the third day.
Speaker 4: It was Shirley Taylor.
Speaker 1: The owner with her husband of the Byron Street townhouse
Speaker 1: near Scruffy and Maria's House in Lennox Head, the place
Speaker 1: where Bromwin and her daughters began in March nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: three to forge a new life of independence from John
Speaker 1: and the Sandstone Crescent Proper. It was easy walking distance
Speaker 1: to Eden's takeaway and the primary school which Lauren and
Speaker 1: Cristal were going to the school, which was quietly visited
Speaker 1: recently by New South Wales police seeking attendance records for
Speaker 1: Lauren and Crystal from nineteen ninety three. According to a
Speaker 1: source who let me know about this, those records would
Speaker 1: show the dates the girls were away with their father.
Speaker 4: In May of that year.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham took Shirley Taylor back to the day she
Speaker 1: received a check for seven hundred dollars from Bromwyn to
Speaker 1: cover the bond for the property.
Speaker 2: And you say in your statement, ma'am, that later in
Speaker 2: the day that you were given the check by bronwin
Speaker 2: and John Winfield came to your place and asked you
Speaker 2: for the bond money to be given back to you.
Speaker 2: Is that correct?
Speaker 6: Yes, he was very aggressive. He wanted the money back,
Speaker 6: the check back.
Speaker 2: Did he indicate to you who owned the check or
Speaker 2: who owned the money that had been given to you
Speaker 2: for the.
Speaker 8: Yeah, well it was just signed by his name, so
Speaker 8: I just imagine it was his.
Speaker 2: Do you remember whether she used any form of descriptive
Speaker 2: words to describe the way she was feeling towards her husband.
Speaker 8: No, she just said I hate him and sort of
Speaker 8: never wanted to see him again.
Speaker 6: That was about it.
Speaker 2: And there was no particular event that she was referring
Speaker 2: to when she made those comments. No, And ma'am, you
Speaker 2: also described on the afternoon of fourteenth May nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 2: that's the friday I think that she informed you that
Speaker 2: she was moving back to the house at Lennox Head.
Speaker 2: Do you recall that.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I remember it very well because it was my birthday.
Speaker 8: She came over and she said, oh, she was so
Speaker 8: happy she was going back to her own home to live.
Speaker 2: Did she say why she was going back to the house, just.
Speaker 8: That her husband had gone to Sydney to live.
Speaker 2: And then you say, ma'am, a couple of days after
Speaker 2: Bronwyn had moved out, two men and two women came
Speaker 2: to my house and demanded a key to get into
Speaker 2: Bronwan's unit to see if she was sick.
Speaker 6: That's true.
Speaker 2: And they say they were Jehovah's witnesses. Did they explain
Speaker 2: that they were from a particular congregation or any particular
Speaker 2: church or anything.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: And you described turning them away, ma'am in your statement,
Speaker 2: then learning that they had gained access to the flat
Speaker 2: that Bronwan was using by way of a ladder into
Speaker 2: one of the windows.
Speaker 8: Yeah, they hired a ladder from the higher place down
Speaker 8: next door.
Speaker 2: Ma'am. You've continued in your statement to describe that A
Speaker 2: few weeks later, John Winfield comes to your place and
Speaker 2: asks to take items that were once owned by Bronwan
Speaker 2: from the unit, and that you turned him away, and
Speaker 2: then he continues returning to you over a period of
Speaker 2: about six weeks. Do you remember how often he is
Speaker 2: to come to you asking for those goods?
Speaker 6: Probably a couple of times a week.
Speaker 2: And do you remember what his demeanor was when he
Speaker 2: would come and ask you for these goods?
Speaker 8: He was aggressive and he wanted them. I had an
Speaker 8: old dog there and he used to ground him too.
Speaker 2: Did John Winfield ever indicate to you any reason why
Speaker 2: Bronwin would not be returning to the flat in Byron
Speaker 2: Street and using those possessions again? No, And you also
Speaker 2: describe in your statement that at a latter time you
Speaker 2: were cleaning the townhouse and you located a jewelry box
Speaker 2: on top of a wardrobe. Do you remember how long
Speaker 2: after Bromwin disappeared that you found that jewelry box.
Speaker 8: It would have been when I was cleaning it out
Speaker 8: to rend it out again.
Speaker 1: Shirley added that it would have been sometime in June
Speaker 1: or July nineteen ninety three. By then Bromwin had been
Speaker 1: missing for several weeks. Matt Fordham went to Shirley Taylor's
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight statement, in which she listed the contents
Speaker 1: of the jewelry box, gold chains, and gold bracelets, a
Speaker 1: heart shaped pendant with diamonds, a gold wedding band, gold
Speaker 1: engagement ring with eight smaller diamonds around a line to diamond,
Speaker 1: and another pendant with multiple diamonds. It was a valuable trove.
Speaker 1: Bromwin had little money when she disappeared. We know that
Speaker 1: Bromwin had been seeking loans from family, including her uncle
Speaker 1: John Reid and aunt Leah Reid. In my view, a
Speaker 1: woman desperate for money doesn't start a new life after
Speaker 1: leaving her jewelry behind in a rented property. It must
Speaker 1: have been worth several thousand dollars, but it was still
Speaker 1: in its hiding place in the townhouse while Bromwan was
Speaker 1: in the wind as police and Andy Reid in two
Speaker 1: thousand and two suspected broman was already dead. In the
Speaker 1: courthouse that day, the jewelry box and its contents were
Speaker 1: admitted as Exhibit.
Speaker 4: Nine without objection.
Speaker 1: Shirley peered into the box and confirmed that it and
Speaker 1: its contents were what she had found nine years earlier.
Speaker 1: Fordham established that Shirley Taylor had no recollection of.
Speaker 4: John visiting the rental while Bromwin was living there, nor.
Speaker 1: Did Shirley recall having seen him sitting in his car
Speaker 1: outside on the road. She was asked by the police
Speaker 1: officer Matt Fordham about Broman's dedication to her daughters.
Speaker 8: Well, if she ever wanted to just go down the street,
Speaker 8: she'd drop them over to my place and I'd look
Speaker 8: after them while she went down there, and they'd just
Speaker 8: sit in a lounge and play or watch TV.
Speaker 2: Was there ever a time when Bromwin would leave the
Speaker 2: children unattended.
Speaker 7: Not to my knowledge.
Speaker 1: No. Apart from demonstrating Bromin's powerful and maternal instincts, the
Speaker 1: line of questioning was an effective rebuttal or counter to
Speaker 1: the claims of John and his daughter Jody. You'll recall
Speaker 1: that in his nineteen ninety eight interview with Glenn Taylor,
Speaker 1: and in Jody's police statement that year, John and his
Speaker 1: daughter did picted Bromman as a mother who had left
Speaker 1: her children alone with nobody looking after them or looking
Speaker 1: out for them. On Saturday May fifteenth. Jody and John
Speaker 1: had suggested that this was the reason for John's decision
Speaker 1: to suddenly fly from Sydney to Balaner on Sunday. He
Speaker 1: was just concerned for the girls, not for possession and
Speaker 1: control of the house that Broman had just moved back into.
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett had questions for Shirley Taylor, starting with the
Speaker 1: clairvoyant and tarot card reader Hen Dragon, but Shirley said
Speaker 1: she couldn't shed much light on him. John's lawyer asked
Speaker 1: if Shirley had tried to reconnect with Broman to get
Speaker 1: the keys back for the townhouse which Shirley owned.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 8: Well, I kept on ringing her phone number in Sandstone Crescent.
Speaker 8: It would just ring out all the time. I thought
Speaker 8: she'd be busy moving and I just kept on ringing,
Speaker 8: probably for a week, and there was no answer.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer spent some time asking Shirley about the people
Speaker 1: she had suspected word Jehovah's witnesses breaking into Townhouse number
Speaker 1: five Bromwin's place days after she had disappeared from Sandstone Crescent.
Speaker 8: There was one woman smecking more, but then there was another.
Speaker 6: One used to say a little bit.
Speaker 8: As soon as my sister told me there was someone there,
Speaker 8: we both went over and asked them.
Speaker 6: How did they get in?
Speaker 8: They were all in there because one got in the
Speaker 8: window and then they opened the front door and the
Speaker 8: others came in that way.
Speaker 1: Shirley, who was worried these strangers were possibly going to
Speaker 1: take Bromwin's things, had asked the four to leave, and
Speaker 1: she said that they did leave peacefully. You'll hear more
Speaker 1: about this when Bromwin's good friend and neighbor Deb Hall
Speaker 1: goes to the witness stand later in this episode, after
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett finished, Matt Fordham had a bit more to
Speaker 1: ask the landlady. She couldn't recall what mail, if any,
Speaker 1: went to Bromin's letterbox after she disappeared, nor what happened to.
Speaker 2: It, ma'am. The letterboxes for those townhouses are they lockable?
Speaker 2: Do they have a key required to open them?
Speaker 6: Yes?
Speaker 1: The deputy state coroner, Karl Miliavanovitch had questions.
Speaker 2: Too, Missus Taylor.
Speaker 9: Just something I'd like to ask.
Speaker 2: When you approached the four people, you say we're all
Speaker 2: in the unit, and you asked them to leave.
Speaker 9: Did they leave immediately?
Speaker 8: They just said they still wanted to look around, and
Speaker 8: I said, well she's not here, and they said, oh.
Speaker 9: Well we'll go, and you closed the door and locked up.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 9: Did you see them carrying anything?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 1: One of Bromman's neighbors who lived in a nearby townhouse.
Speaker 1: Alan Fisher went forward next.
Speaker 2: So you say in your statement that originally, when Bronin
Speaker 2: was living in another townhouse, that you knew her to
Speaker 2: say hello, but you didn't know her terribly well. But
Speaker 2: you would make an observation, sir, in your statement, that
Speaker 2: she was very watchful over her two kids, and she
Speaker 2: was not the type to leave her kids for even
Speaker 2: five minutes. Was there any particular event that caused you
Speaker 2: to tell the police that, well, I.
Speaker 10: Sort of faced the back of Shirley's there, and every
Speaker 10: time she went anywhere, she used to call Shirley to
Speaker 10: watch the children. She wouldn't go without them, you know,
Speaker 10: wouldn't leave them on their own, and I can't even
Speaker 10: remember them being there on their own.
Speaker 2: You say in your statement, sir, that you recall Bronwin
Speaker 2: saying to you, I hope you didn't hear all that commotion,
Speaker 2: and that you replied, I didn't hear anything. Bronwin says,
Speaker 2: I have just had a hell of an argument over
Speaker 2: the phone with my husband. He's coming down tomorrow and
Speaker 2: I'm terrified about what he might do. Do you recall
Speaker 2: that conversation today, sir? That's correct, did she make any
Speaker 2: other comments about what she intended to do. All she
Speaker 2: said was, look.
Speaker 10: I'm terrified about what he's going to do when he
Speaker 10: comes tomorrow. And I said, we're look at putting security
Speaker 10: doors on as soon as my son comes home, which
Speaker 10: we did, and she thanked us for doing that, and
Speaker 10: I didn't see it till the next day.
Speaker 2: Then did she indicate where she thought that her husband
Speaker 2: was coming from?
Speaker 10: Well, the way, I thought that he was either in
Speaker 10: Brisbane or he was in the area. She said he
Speaker 10: was coming down. That's all I just assumed myself. She
Speaker 10: said tomorrow, because that's why we put the doors on.
Speaker 10: She was expecting him on the Friday morning.
Speaker 2: And so is it the case that you spoke to
Speaker 2: her again on the Friday afternoon about three pm when
Speaker 2: you saw her with a trailer in the driveway removing
Speaker 2: some of her possessions. Is that correct?
Speaker 10: Yeah, I'd come home from work and she was there
Speaker 10: with someone with a trailer and a youth taking possessions
Speaker 10: out of the place. And she come down to where
Speaker 10: I was and I just said to her, what's going on?
Speaker 10: And she said, we're moving back to the family home.
Speaker 10: I said, how'd you get on with your husband, and
Speaker 10: she said it was better than expected. She said, he's
Speaker 10: letting us move back in. That was the word she
Speaker 10: said to me.
Speaker 2: So when she was moving her possessions out of Byron Street,
Speaker 2: did she have anyone with her giving her a hand?
Speaker 10: She had one gentleman. He looked like he mowed lawns
Speaker 10: and things. He had a trailer on behind you, And
Speaker 10: I just asked her, did she want a hand with
Speaker 10: any of her gear? She said, no, I'm leaving the rest.
Speaker 10: I'll pick that up later on. I think I did
Speaker 10: end up helping her move one wardrobe.
Speaker 1: Some days later, Alan Fisher saw the group of four
Speaker 1: adults using the ladder to.
Speaker 4: Enter Bromwin's rented townhouse.
Speaker 10: All I know is I knew she wasn't there, that
Speaker 10: she'd gone, And when I came home, the ladder was
Speaker 10: up against the back eaves and the window was open,
Speaker 10: and I could see people moving around. So immediately I
Speaker 10: ran into Shirley and I said, what's.
Speaker 4: Going on over there?
Speaker 10: She said they were just worried, concerned about her health
Speaker 10: and wanted to have a look through the place. She
Speaker 10: said they weren't there after anything, They were just concerned
Speaker 10: about her.
Speaker 3: Mister Fisher, you made your statement in July of nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety nine. That was some six years after the events
Speaker 3: took place. That's so, isn't it.
Speaker 10: Yeah?
Speaker 3: In order to get you back to the relevant period
Speaker 3: of time, did the detective jog your memory that it
Speaker 3: was a Friday, that was the day when Bromwin left
Speaker 3: the unit. No, you had an independent recollection six years
Speaker 3: later that it was a Friday, did you.
Speaker 10: Well, I knew when she left and when people were
Speaker 10: talking about that she'd gone missing, and sort of it
Speaker 10: was still fresh in my mind. It's something that happened
Speaker 10: at the time. You sort of think back about it.
Speaker 3: And it wasn't your birthday on the Friday or anything,
Speaker 3: was it.
Speaker 8: No.
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett then dedicated many questions to the incident, involving
Speaker 1: Broman's friends deb Denise Barnard, her husband Les, and Murray Nolan.
Speaker 1: When they had gone to the townhouse and used the
Speaker 1: ladder to get in, they are not Jehovah's witnesses. Questions
Speaker 1: about the layout of the townhouse, the direction of the ladder,
Speaker 1: the presence of cars in the area and the driveway,
Speaker 1: and whether the higher equipment venue had previously been operated
Speaker 1: as a nursery, and how long in Alan Fisher's estimation,
Speaker 1: the interlopers had been at the property prior to Alan
Speaker 1: alerting Shirley Taylor. The lawyer drilled into all of these matters,
Speaker 1: and it was difficult to see why. Perhaps it was
Speaker 1: all about his next question, for some unexplained reason.
Speaker 3: Did the people inside the unit appear to be going
Speaker 3: through any wardrobes or looking for possessions to take away?
Speaker 3: We were able to see anything like that?
Speaker 10: Well, I didn't observe it that closely. All I saw
Speaker 10: was people there, and as I said, as far as
Speaker 10: I was concerned, he could have been tradesmen. I didn't
Speaker 10: observe it any more than that.
Speaker 3: Moving to another topic, you say that Bron on another
Speaker 3: Friday said to you it went better than what I thought.
Speaker 3: He has agreed to let us move back into the
Speaker 3: family home. Yes, and that's a conversation which stuck in
Speaker 3: your recollection, is it?
Speaker 10: That's right? Because I was the one that asked her.
Speaker 10: I said, how did it go today? And she said
Speaker 10: it weren't real good. It went better than I expected.
Speaker 10: She said, he's agreed to let us move back in
Speaker 10: the family home.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham addressed the next witness, Desiree Flood. Like Alan Fisher,
Speaker 1: she was another townhouse neighbor she had met Bromwin.
Speaker 2: Ma'am, there's a couple of things that you relate in
Speaker 2: your statement that I'll ask you to expand upon.
Speaker 1: The police officer assisting the coroner related the part of
Speaker 1: her nineteen ninety eight statement in which she believed that
Speaker 1: Bromwin appeared to be happy and told her that she
Speaker 1: was moving back into her family home as her husband
Speaker 1: John was going to stay.
Speaker 2: In Sydney today. Are you still quite certain that it
Speaker 2: was the Sunday the sixteenth that you had that conversation
Speaker 2: with Bronwin.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I am absolutely.
Speaker 2: And ma'am, do you recall her demeanor when she was
Speaker 2: telling you about her husband coming Well, I thought it.
Speaker 11: Was a bit funny that she actually said that to me,
Speaker 11: because we never had personal conversations anyway.
Speaker 2: Did she indicate to you why she was telling you.
Speaker 11: This, No, No, I think she was just preparing us
Speaker 11: to hear a noise, maybe an argument or something. The
Speaker 11: units were very close you could hear through the walls sometimes.
Speaker 2: Have you heard any arguments occurring inside Bronwyn's unit before no.
Speaker 2: Have you ever heard her talking on the telephone before?
Speaker 11: Well, we could hear, but we never listened like you
Speaker 11: could hear people talking on the phone.
Speaker 7: But you didn't take that much.
Speaker 2: Notice when you heard Bromwin talking on the phone. Could
Speaker 2: you determine her tone of voice?
Speaker 7: No, not really.
Speaker 11: She didn't give me a reason to think, you know,
Speaker 11: she was upset or anything.
Speaker 2: And ma'am you say that, but that was the last
Speaker 2: time you saw Bronwin on that Sunday sixteen May. Yes,
Speaker 2: you made some observations of Bronwyn's appearance at the time.
Speaker 2: Do you remember what they were?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I do.
Speaker 11: I went to her door and knocked on the door
Speaker 11: and she answered she didn't want to talk.
Speaker 7: But I think she had got a bit of a
Speaker 7: black eye.
Speaker 11: She had make up covering her eye, and she had
Speaker 11: sunglasses on, not dark glasses, but she had glasses on it.
Speaker 2: And you could see firstly the glasses that she was wearing.
Speaker 2: Did she normally wear glasses?
Speaker 7: I don't think she didn't know. I don't know.
Speaker 2: Are you able to indicate roughly what size the bruise
Speaker 2: that you saw may have been?
Speaker 7: It came down, it was quite big.
Speaker 2: You are indicating with your finger in the witness box.
Speaker 2: There a line from underneath your eye extending out towards
Speaker 2: the side of your left cheek, the left side of
Speaker 2: your face, just above the cheekbone. Is that correct?
Speaker 7: That's correct? Yeah?
Speaker 2: And did you ever discuss that with her the bruise?
Speaker 7: No, I didn't know. She didn't want to talk that day.
Speaker 2: What was it that prompts you to say that she
Speaker 2: didn't want to talk that day?
Speaker 7: She had a head down.
Speaker 11: When I knocked on the door, she opened the door
Speaker 11: and I said to her, would you mind moving your car?
Speaker 2: Ma'am? You say in your statement that you found it
Speaker 2: extraordinary that Bronwn would leave her kids and have no
Speaker 2: further contact with them. What things did you see that
Speaker 2: prompts you to say that that was an extraordinary thing?
Speaker 11: Well, what I did see of her with her children
Speaker 11: was if they were in the courtyard playing, she'd be
Speaker 11: sitting on the step. If she went inside, the kids
Speaker 11: would go inside with her. The front door was always closed.
Speaker 11: That's about it. Basically, whenever they were allowed outside, she
Speaker 11: was outside with them.
Speaker 1: There was no challenge to any of it from John's lawyer,
Speaker 1: Craig Leggott, And then it was time for Deb Hall.
Speaker 1: I first heard from Romwin's good friend and neighbor sixteen
Speaker 1: years after she gave her evidence in the two thousand
Speaker 1: and two inquest in Lismore. An email from Deb to
Speaker 1: me in August twenty eighteen was triggered by my investigation
Speaker 1: for the Teacher's Pet podcast series. Just like with Bromwin,
Speaker 1: the story of the disappearance of Lynn Dawson now known
Speaker 1: as Lynn Simms was unfolding with weekly episodes, and Deb
Speaker 1: was listening in.
Speaker 4: She wrote to me, back then.
Speaker 6: This man John Winfield continues as does Chris Dawson, to
Speaker 6: proclaim his wife just ran off and joined a cult
Speaker 6: or went with another man. There is so much more
Speaker 6: I could inform you of in this case, but it
Speaker 6: would take me hours. I just felt I needed to
Speaker 6: highlight the extreme similarities of my best friend's case. I
Speaker 6: really hope that justice is done for both these poor women.
Speaker 1: I replied an hour later, and I wrote, Hi, Debbie,
Speaker 1: maybe it's serendipity someone else has mentioned this case to me.
Speaker 1: I won't be able to get to it for a while,
Speaker 1: but I'm interested in knowing as much as possible about it.
Speaker 1: Can you help by writing as much as you can,
Speaker 1: I would treat it as a confidential disclosure.
Speaker 4: Dare Band.
Speaker 1: Her friendship with Bromwin reminded me of two other women.
Speaker 1: One was Julie Andrew. The other was her neighbor and
Speaker 1: good friend, Lynn, who disappeared from Bayview on Sydney's Northern
Speaker 1: Beaches in nineteen eighty two. Bayview was the name of
Speaker 1: the first episode of The Teacher's Pet, and Julie Andrew
Speaker 1: was an integral part of it.
Speaker 12: My friendship with Lynn was just a this beautiful gift
Speaker 12: because she was so ah.
Speaker 7: She was beautiful.
Speaker 12: She's just so lovely and sweet. She was a truly sweet, caring,
Speaker 12: loving woman.
Speaker 1: Like Debhaul, Julie Andrew was suspicious from a very early
Speaker 1: stage that Lynn, a mother of two girls, had been murdered.
Speaker 12: The best way to dispose of a body when you
Speaker 12: live in the bush is to put it in the bush.
Speaker 12: And that's what I say, thank you did on the
Speaker 12: Friday night.
Speaker 1: In two thousand and two. Matt Fordham was deeply involved
Speaker 1: in Lynd's case. He had presented the brief of evidence
Speaker 1: the year before to a senior coroner who recommended a
Speaker 1: murder prosecution, which the then Director of Public prosecutions, Nicholas
Speaker 1: Cattery refused to run on the grounds as he believed
Speaker 1: that there was insufficient evidence. In two thousand and three,
Speaker 1: matt Fordham and the police officer Damien Lohne presented the
Speaker 1: brief again, but with several more statements to another senior coroner,
Speaker 1: Karl Milvanovitch, and after days of public hearings in Sydney,
Speaker 1: he too recommended a murder prosecution, but again the same
Speaker 1: DPP refused to give the green light. In two thousand
Speaker 1: and two, between those two inquests for Lynd's case, matt
Speaker 1: Fordham was in Lismore for the missing and presumed dead
Speaker 1: mother of two girls, Bromwan Joey Winfield. He started asking
Speaker 1: Bromwyn's good friend Deb Hall about her visit to the
Speaker 1: rented accommodation in Byron Street shortly after Bromwin had disappeared.
Speaker 6: We were very concerned about Brown at this stage, and
Speaker 6: I believe that Les obtained a ladder and he climbed
Speaker 6: up onto the roof and gained access to the unit.
Speaker 2: And did you see anything inside the unit?
Speaker 6: No, We just sort of looked around to see if
Speaker 6: there was anything there that indicated the whereabouts of Bromwin
Speaker 6: or if she was there.
Speaker 2: Do you know of anything or any reason that may
Speaker 2: have led missus Taylor to believe that you may have
Speaker 2: been Jehovah's witnesses.
Speaker 6: No, I'm not a Jehovah's witness.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham relied on Deb's nineteen ninety eight police statement,
Speaker 1: as he told her he wanted to expand on her
Speaker 1: description in that document of having met Bromwin. When she
Speaker 1: introduced herself, having newly arrived in Sandstone Crescent, where she
Speaker 1: and John were building that house, Bromwyn became upset and
Speaker 1: started crying. When Deb asked her what was wrong, Bromwin
Speaker 1: confided that her husband John had been giving her a
Speaker 1: hard time.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I do remember that. Yes, she came to my
Speaker 6: house to introduce herself, and then she got very upset,
Speaker 6: and I thought something is not right here, So I inquired,
Speaker 6: are you okay? And she indicated that she'd had a
Speaker 6: few problems with her marriage. She had a few year
Speaker 6: dealings with John that she was upset with. She didn't
Speaker 6: elaborate terribly much, though at that stage.
Speaker 1: The police officer suggested to Deb that the two women
Speaker 1: became firm friends and met almost on a daily basis.
Speaker 1: They helped each other with childcare and other needs. Matt
Speaker 1: Fordham paraphrased deb statement in which she had said John
Speaker 1: was fanatical about having the house spotlessly clean, how if
Speaker 1: the kids spilt anything, he would become angry, and how
Speaker 1: he resented Bromwan's friends coming to visit her at the house.
Speaker 1: Bromwyn had told Deb that John would later verbally abuse
Speaker 1: her if a friend dropped in. She was always short
Speaker 1: of money too, because John would not give her enough.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham asked about the frequency of these sorts of
Speaker 1: concerns raised by Bromwyn.
Speaker 6: It came up quite a lot. Yeah, over the time
Speaker 6: that I knew Bromwyn, more so than you would imagine
Speaker 6: with normal conversations with other people.
Speaker 2: Yes, And over the couple of years that you have
Speaker 2: lived next door to Bronwyn, could you estimate to us
Speaker 2: roughly how often she would complain of problems with her
Speaker 2: marriage to you?
Speaker 6: Well, I saw her almost every day. I'd say it
Speaker 6: would have to be at least once or twice a week. Yes.
Speaker 1: The deeply personal subject of Bromwin's pregnancy and termination were
Speaker 1: raised in the courtroom.
Speaker 6: Well, she told me, I think she told me before
Speaker 6: she actually told John that she thought she might have
Speaker 6: been pregnant. She adored children because I think I'd had
Speaker 6: my last baby around the same time. And yeah, she
Speaker 6: was very upset that she might have had to make
Speaker 6: the decision to terminate the pregnancy, which she eventually did,
Speaker 6: but she was in quite a turmoil about that. Well,
Speaker 6: she wanted the baby, but knowing that John didn't.
Speaker 2: Did she indicate to you what she feared may have
Speaker 2: happened had she kept the pregnancy.
Speaker 6: I think she felt that a marriage would really fall apart.
Speaker 6: It would have put added strain on it.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham went to another part of deb statement in
Speaker 1: which she disclosed that in early nineteen ninety three Bromwyn
Speaker 1: confided she might leave John and how according to Bromwyn,
Speaker 1: John had told her that if she left, she would
Speaker 1: get nothing, and that included the children, the house, and
Speaker 1: all the furniture. Bromwyn had said that John told her
Speaker 1: that all she would get would be the clothes on
Speaker 1: her back, and she.
Speaker 6: Used to say to me, I can't leave him. You've
Speaker 6: got no idea what is capable of and I would
Speaker 6: get nothing. So that was a general theory behind that.
Speaker 2: Do you remember the circle instances of this topic being discussed.
Speaker 6: It actually took place on and off over the six months,
Speaker 6: really because she was having a lot of trouble for
Speaker 6: quite a while.
Speaker 2: Did she ever discuss with you places that she may
Speaker 2: go to to run away from John?
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 1: The police officer asked if Bromwin ever talked, for example,
Speaker 1: about whether her family in Sydney might be a source
Speaker 1: of assistance to her if she had to flee John.
Speaker 6: No.
Speaker 1: What about her talking to a solicitor. Matt fordamasked, did
Speaker 1: Bromwin disclose this to her friend and.
Speaker 6: Neighbor after she'd moved out. Yes, she indicated she was
Speaker 6: going to seek legal advice as to what she was
Speaker 6: entitled to.
Speaker 1: Then the police officer spoke about Bromwin's move back into
Speaker 1: the house and how Deb was surprised and concerned about
Speaker 1: John and his reaction to this, how Bromwin had told
Speaker 1: Deb that there were people Bromwyn could ring if there
Speaker 1: were any troubles. Did Deb recall where she was when
Speaker 1: Bromwin told her these things.
Speaker 6: At the front door, right, because she came to my
Speaker 6: house and I entered the door and there she was
Speaker 6: with the children, and I asked her what are you doing?
Speaker 6: And she said, I'm moving back into the house. And
Speaker 6: I immediately just thought if John finds out she's in
Speaker 6: the house, there'll be dramas So I said, what's John
Speaker 6: going to do when he finds out you're back in
Speaker 6: the house And she said, that's okay. There's people I
Speaker 6: can contact if there's any trouble.
Speaker 1: On the Sunday morning of May sixteen, according to Deb's
Speaker 1: statement to the police five years later, Bromwin went over
Speaker 1: to her neighbor's house again to ask Deb to look
Speaker 1: after Crystal and Lauren from eleven am to four pm
Speaker 1: while Bromwin went to work. Matt Fordham wanted to know
Speaker 1: if Deb was aware that Bromwin would be at Eden's takeaway.
Speaker 4: For that shift.
Speaker 6: That's right, yes, I think she mostly planned her work
Speaker 6: around the school hours through the week and on weekend
Speaker 6: it would be well. She'd approached myself or other friends,
Speaker 6: but they were always taken care of when she worked.
Speaker 1: Yes, About four point thirty pm, Deb's statement goes on,
Speaker 1: Bromwan arrived back at Sandstone Crescent and she collected the
Speaker 1: children from Deb's house. Matt Fordham read aloud the part
Speaker 1: where Deb had related Broman's conversation that afternoon, how happy
Speaker 1: she and the children were to be back in the house,
Speaker 1: and how Bromwin had disclosed that she had a busy
Speaker 1: week ahead of her, a school week for Crystal and Lauren.
Speaker 1: Perhaps most importantly, at no stage, according to Deb, did
Speaker 1: Bromwin mention any plan to go away to be absent
Speaker 1: from the house or her girls.
Speaker 2: Was there any other things that Bromwin mentioned to you
Speaker 2: that she was planning to do that week.
Speaker 6: I think she mentioned that she still had her things
Speaker 6: at the unit and she was planning on retrieving those
Speaker 6: and bringing them back to the house. Just general clothing,
Speaker 6: possessions of the children, things like that. Right, she had
Speaker 6: work she had to do that week at the takeaway shop. Yes,
Speaker 6: just general chores of a mother.
Speaker 1: Basically, Deb went to bed at about eight thirty pm
Speaker 1: on the Sunday night. She confirmed in her evidence that
Speaker 1: she didn't hear or see anything until she woke about
Speaker 1: six point thirty the next morning and saw that the
Speaker 1: white Ford Falcon was missing from the driveway.
Speaker 4: Was that unusual?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: And you mentioned that to your partner Murray, and he
Speaker 2: told you something that he saw happened the previous night well.
Speaker 6: I remember I was in the bathroom opening the bathroom window,
Speaker 6: and my bathroom basically looked straight up onto the driveway,
Speaker 6: and that's when I noticed that the vehicle wasn't there,
Speaker 6: because she always passed the car on the driveway, never
Speaker 6: in the garage. I thought, that's odd at six thirty
Speaker 6: in the morning, and I walked back into the bedroom
Speaker 6: and just happened to say to Murray, car's missing. It's
Speaker 6: a bit strange. It's half past six in the morning.
Speaker 6: I wonder where she could have gone at this hour,
Speaker 6: you know, so early. And he happened to just mention
Speaker 6: to me that he'd heard it leave the night before,
Speaker 6: and I just sort of thought, hmm, okay, and I said,
Speaker 6: that's a bit strange. I wonder where she's gone.
Speaker 2: And was there any discussion about the car leaving with
Speaker 2: your husband at the time.
Speaker 6: No, because I basically was running late for work, and
Speaker 6: so I got the kids off the school and went
Speaker 6: off to work.
Speaker 1: The police officer asked whether at that stage deb had
Speaker 1: any discussion with Maurray about him having noted or seen
Speaker 1: that the car had its engine turned off when it left.
Speaker 6: No, he was still in bed at that stage because
Speaker 6: he'd hurt his back. I remember just getting ready and
Speaker 6: off I went to work. There was no more discussion.
Speaker 2: Do you remember when it was or have you since
Speaker 2: learned about the engine not being turned on?
Speaker 6: I have yes.
Speaker 2: And when was it that you first heard about that?
Speaker 6: It could have been six months later or it could
Speaker 6: have been before that. I don't have any real recollection
Speaker 6: of when that exactly was.
Speaker 2: And how did you find out about that through Murray?
Speaker 1: Was that also the case regarding the lights? Matt Fordham asked, yes, right.
Speaker 6: He thought it was strange at the time, so I said, well, yeah,
Speaker 6: that doesn't seem right. Perhaps you should let somebody know
Speaker 6: about that, and I think he did eventually.
Speaker 1: The police officer asked if Murray spoke to Deb further
Speaker 1: about the car and its exit from the driveway.
Speaker 6: He told me he heard at bottom out on the roadway.
Speaker 6: He thought it was strange. We'd never heard it do
Speaker 6: that before.
Speaker 1: Deb was asked whether she recalled anything in particular about
Speaker 1: those telephone calls that she had tried to make to
Speaker 1: Bromwin after these unusual events.
Speaker 6: That was mainly what sticks in my mind that I
Speaker 6: couldn't get on to her.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham reminded deb about some inquiries that she made
Speaker 1: with her own children about Bromwyn's girls and whether they
Speaker 1: were at school.
Speaker 2: Did Bromwin ever mention to you places that she may
Speaker 2: have gone for a couple of days, or did she
Speaker 2: ever mention to you that she may in fact go
Speaker 2: away for a couple of days.
Speaker 6: No, she never mentioned to me that she may have
Speaker 6: gone away. I thought, well, if the children are at school,
Speaker 6: then obviously Bromwin's somewhere. But because they weren't at school,
Speaker 6: I assumed that children were with Bromwin and that perhaps
Speaker 6: she may have decided to go away for a couple
Speaker 6: of days with the kids.
Speaker 1: By Tuesday, according to debs statement, Bromwin's other good friend,
Speaker 1: Denise Barnard, telephoned. Denise had been called by Andy Reid
Speaker 1: in Sydney. He told Denise that John and the children
Speaker 1: were in Sydney. Andy was concerned about Bromwin. Matt Fordham
Speaker 1: asked if there was any other conversation deb could recall.
Speaker 6: So only that I was bewildered when she told me
Speaker 6: that John and the children were in Sydney, and I
Speaker 6: just thought, when did John come up? When was he here?
Speaker 6: That was my immediate reaction. I got more concerned then. Yes,
Speaker 6: I was quite shocked to learn he'd been there. And
Speaker 6: you say that nobody had seen or heard from Bronwin
Speaker 6: and that this caused you to feel very concerned about
Speaker 6: her well being, and that Murray, your husband, had told
Speaker 6: you that he'd received a phone call from John Winfield
Speaker 6: asking him to go into the house and check if
Speaker 6: there was any sign of Bronwin. And you say that
Speaker 6: you decided to go down to the house with Murray
Speaker 6: and have a look through. Did you look in the
Speaker 6: rooms inside the house? Yes, didn't touch anything, just walked through,
Speaker 6: had a good look, just to satisfy my curiosity that yes,
Speaker 6: there was nothing amiss there.
Speaker 2: And in your statement, ma'am, you described that the house
Speaker 2: was generally quite untidy, and that there was still food
Speaker 2: on plates, where washing in the machine beds not made,
Speaker 2: and that it appeared to you as if though the
Speaker 2: house had been left in a hurry. Was this the
Speaker 2: very first time that you'd seen the house in such
Speaker 2: a state?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, And on each of these occasions that you'd
Speaker 2: been to the house previously, how was the house maintained?
Speaker 6: Inside spotless? You could eat off the floor.
Speaker 2: And the things that you say in your statement about
Speaker 2: the food on plates, where washing in the machine, and
Speaker 2: beds not made. Did that strike you as being particularly unusual.
Speaker 6: Oh, very very unusual. Yes, John was more than meticulous
Speaker 6: one around the house. But she did keep it tidy,
Speaker 6: and yes, she knew she basically had to.
Speaker 2: Now, ma'am, inside the house. Is it possible to gain
Speaker 2: access to the garage from inside the house?
Speaker 6: Yes, there is a door that connects the house to
Speaker 6: the garage.
Speaker 2: And did you go to the garage at all?
Speaker 6: No, didn't get into the garage.
Speaker 2: Did you see a Medicare check on the kitchen bench.
Speaker 6: No, I didn't see anything like that.
Speaker 2: If there had been a Medicare check there, do you
Speaker 2: feel confident that you would have seen.
Speaker 6: It, Yes, definitely.
Speaker 2: You described going to the main bedroom and you say
Speaker 2: that all of Bromin's clothes, makeup, and personal items appeared
Speaker 2: to be there except her handbag.
Speaker 6: Yes, the only bag I saw was this cane bag
Speaker 6: with nothing in it.
Speaker 2: And ma'am, you say that inside the house there was
Speaker 2: no signs of any struggle in the house. Is that correct?
Speaker 6: That's correct.
Speaker 1: Matt fordamasked deb if it was possible that when John
Speaker 1: was relating to Deb what had happened on the Sunday
Speaker 1: night with Bromwin having purportedly made a telephone call and
Speaker 1: then a car coming to pick her up. Had John
Speaker 1: said it might have been a taxi?
Speaker 6: No, he told me a person had yeah turned up
Speaker 6: at the house. To me, he indicated it was a
Speaker 6: car because I asked him whether he saw who it
Speaker 6: was or what the car looks like, and he made
Speaker 6: no indication to me that he knew who it was.
Speaker 2: You describe in your statement, ma'am, some general conversation, mostly
Speaker 2: about where Bronwin would go to. Do you remember what
Speaker 2: the ideas of places she may have gone to were
Speaker 2: coming from John? From John?
Speaker 6: Yes, I think Queensland was mentioned, but apart from that
Speaker 6: not much else.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: And you continue in your statement, ma'am, to describe that
Speaker 2: John told you that he thought she must have gone
Speaker 2: somewhere for a holiday somewhere. Is that correct?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 2: Did John use the words holiday?
Speaker 6: Yes?
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: Did he ever convey that he felt that Bromwin would
Speaker 1: not be coming back to the house, the police officer
Speaker 1: asked Deb.
Speaker 6: No, No, he didn't convey to me that she wasn't
Speaker 6: coming back to the house.
Speaker 2: Did he indicate to you a thing about a boyfriend
Speaker 2: that Bromwin may have had.
Speaker 6: He'd indicated to me a few, yes, a few fables.
Speaker 6: I believe that she'd run off with a certain gentleman
Speaker 6: in town, one of which was a Lance Emery. And yes,
Speaker 6: I just found that a bit unbelievable, But yes, he
Speaker 6: did try and indicate a few scenarios of who she
Speaker 6: may have gone off with.
Speaker 1: Before returning to the balance of Deb's evidence on day
Speaker 1: three of the inquest, Let's look at what appears to
Speaker 1: be a pattern of conduct by John in suggesting that
Speaker 1: Bromwin had gone away with a lover. Megan Reid wrote
Speaker 1: in her diary in nineteen ninety three that John told
Speaker 1: her Bromwin had run off with a boyfriend. The detective
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor made a note in nineteen ninety eight about
Speaker 1: John's angry phone call to him in which John stated
Speaker 1: that Bromwin would be with some as John put it,
Speaker 1: rich sugar Daddy Lennox head local, and that Armstrong recalled
Speaker 1: that the other detective, Graham Discin, had repeatedly suggested to
Speaker 1: her in nineteen ninety three that Bromwin had quote run
Speaker 1: off with a fella unquote, no prizes for guessing the
Speaker 1: probable source of that information. Bromwan used to go to
Speaker 1: Bernie's hairdressing saleon opposite Eden's takeaway in Lennox Head, and
Speaker 1: Bernie recalled being visited there by Graham discin here's a
Speaker 1: reminder from episode five.
Speaker 5: This is how he spoke to me. Come on, you're
Speaker 5: in here, all you girls, and you know it.
Speaker 6: She's done.
Speaker 7: I said, what are you talking about?
Speaker 3: And I've got on the cli.
Speaker 5: Horse straight away and he said, you've got the gots here.
Speaker 5: I said, I haven't got the goths here to spit
Speaker 5: it out and what you want. And he went, you
Speaker 5: know she's run off with somebody. She would have told
Speaker 5: you that a boyfriend. He said it about three times. Oh,
Speaker 5: she's got a feller. She's run off to the fella
Speaker 5: that I said. She was a lovely Clyde. That's all
Speaker 5: I know.
Speaker 7: I said, I know nothing personally about the girl.
Speaker 3: I said, but I'll tell you what.
Speaker 5: That's something I would never believe that she's left those
Speaker 5: two little girls. And you know I've stuck to that
Speaker 5: headley all the way through it, all the way through it.
Speaker 1: John told Bromwin's sister Kim Marshall in mid nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: three that he believed Bromin was having an affair with
Speaker 1: another man. He told Kim and her brother Andy that
Speaker 1: Bromwin had been quote running around town on the back
Speaker 1: of a motorbike end quote, and John told a number
Speaker 1: of people, including Michelle and Andy and Meghan and Kim
Speaker 1: and deb and Murray, that Bromwin must have returned to
Speaker 1: the house weeks later because assigned Medicare check had been
Speaker 1: left on the kitchen bench, and John suggested that Bromwin
Speaker 1: must have had another man because a pair of John's
Speaker 1: jeans and the jumper were also missing, he claimed. Graham
Speaker 1: Diskin's police running sheet in nineteen ninety three actually noted
Speaker 1: investigations into the possibility of Bromwin having run off with
Speaker 1: any of three potential men. One was Pendragon, the tarot
Speaker 1: card reader and clairvoyant, who was even placed under surveillance
Speaker 1: by Graham Discan. Another was Gary Jackson or Jacko, who
Speaker 1: worked at Eden's Takeaway with Bromwin. Jacko did ride a
Speaker 1: motorbike around Lennox and Bromwin was fond of him. She
Speaker 1: believed they might have a future together, but inconveniently for
Speaker 1: John's story. Gary Jackson was in New Zealand when Bromwin disappeared.
Speaker 1: The third man, Lance Emery, was spoken to by Graham Discan.
Speaker 1: Lance worked at the surf shop next to Eden's Takeaway,
Speaker 1: and he told Graham Discin in nineteen ninety three that
Speaker 1: he sometimes spoke to Bromwin and they had coffee together
Speaker 1: once out the front of the shops.
Speaker 4: Where they worked.
Speaker 1: He said there was never any talk between him and
Speaker 1: Bromwin about a potential romantic relationship if Bromwyn had an
Speaker 1: intimate relationship with someone other than John. In early nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety three, she confided in No One and nobody has
Speaker 1: come up with a single sintilla of evidence to support
Speaker 1: what looks like a baseless smeer for John's claims to
Speaker 1: be true. Bromwyn hid her new man from everyone she knew,
Speaker 1: her colleagues at the takeaway, the other young mums at
Speaker 1: the local school playgroup, the three solicitors Bromwyn visited in
Speaker 1: early nineteen ninety three, her brother Andy and sister in
Speaker 1: law Michelle, her cousin Megan, sisters Kim and Melissa, her
Speaker 1: Byron Street neighbors, and landlady, her Sandstone Crescent neighbors, and
Speaker 1: her close friends Deb Haul and Denise Barnard, and the
Speaker 1: woman we have been calling Joan. There is a single
Speaker 1: common denominator in the claims about Bromwin purportedly running off
Speaker 1: with a so called boyfriend, John Winfield. Now let's go
Speaker 1: back to the inquest and the police officer Matt Fordham's
Speaker 1: questioning of Deb Hall about some of her other conversations
Speaker 1: with John soon after Bromin disappeared.
Speaker 2: He didn't indicate to you at this stage any ideas
Speaker 2: about her running off with a religious group or anything
Speaker 2: like that. No, he didn't indicate to you anything about
Speaker 2: Bromwin leaving because of some form of mental illness or
Speaker 2: something like that.
Speaker 6: He mentioned to me that Broman's mother had done the
Speaker 6: same thing to her, So he was indicating to me
Speaker 6: that you know, this is not unusual, it's in the family.
Speaker 1: In that context, after Bromwan had gone missing, did John
Speaker 1: ever indicate that he was concerned that Bromwin might cause
Speaker 1: him to.
Speaker 4: Lose the house? The police officer asked Deb.
Speaker 6: No, not after she'd gone missing.
Speaker 1: No, what about whether he was concerned about Bromin divorcing him?
Speaker 1: And taking off with the children.
Speaker 6: No, No, nothing at all.
Speaker 2: And do you recall what John's attitudes towards reporting her
Speaker 2: missing was.
Speaker 6: He wasn't that keen to do it, basically at the time.
Speaker 6: I think this was in the early days of when
Speaker 6: she'd gone missing, because I was just very concerned about
Speaker 6: her and I just thought that the police involvement needed
Speaker 6: to be had, And he did not appear to me
Speaker 6: when I mentioned it to him, to want to rush
Speaker 6: in and do that.
Speaker 2: And ma'am, over the years that you knew Bronwin, would
Speaker 2: it be a possibility, ma'am, that she would voluntarily leave
Speaker 2: her children unattended for such a period of time. No.
Speaker 1: The police officer asked about whether she formed a view
Speaker 1: about John's parenting skills. Were they up to looking after
Speaker 1: the two girls at that time?
Speaker 6: No, I mean any male could do it, but he
Speaker 6: did not spend as much time with the children as
Speaker 6: what broman would have.
Speaker 1: Did John ever express any dissatisfaction that Bromwin was not
Speaker 1: there to look after the children, the police officer asked deb.
Speaker 9: No.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham took deb to the part of her statement
Speaker 1: in which she recalled John telephoning her to ask her
Speaker 1: to look after the two girls while he went to
Speaker 1: ball On a police station to report Bromwin as a
Speaker 1: missing person. Deb remembered commenting to John that it was
Speaker 1: about nine thirty pm, and she asked him why didn't
Speaker 1: he report her missing in the morning. John had a response.
Speaker 2: To this, as Deb recalled, whilst it was still fresh
Speaker 2: in his mind.
Speaker 6: Though the words that are used, that's the words he used.
Speaker 1: The police officer asked Deb if she could recall anything
Speaker 1: in particular that might have prompted John to want to
Speaker 1: do it that late at night.
Speaker 6: Oh, I think I did actually mention to him that
Speaker 6: if he didn't, I would because I was worried.
Speaker 1: Deb was perplexed about the documented timing of John's report
Speaker 1: to the police. She believed that it was in early.
Speaker 4: June, not late May.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer, Craig Leggett, went straight to this discrepancy. Craig
Speaker 1: Leggett pointed out to Deb that it was obvious from
Speaker 1: the running sheets that Jonathan Winfield had reported Bromwin missing
Speaker 1: on May twenty seven. He wanted to know whether Deb
Speaker 1: accepted that the running sheet entry was probably right and
Speaker 1: that Deb was mistaken.
Speaker 6: I thought it was the long weekend in June, and
Speaker 6: I think the conversation I had with John was why
Speaker 6: don't you wait till tomorrow? And he didn't want to
Speaker 6: do that because he didn't want the kids to know
Speaker 6: where he was going.
Speaker 1: Maury's back injury and his hospitalization were approached, the topic
Speaker 1: would get a lot of attention during questioning of Murray
Speaker 1: later that afternoon in the court room in Lismore.
Speaker 6: You could subpoena the records if you wish. But I
Speaker 6: do work at the hospital myself, but I think he
Speaker 6: was given panadine for the pain. He possibly could have
Speaker 6: had a bit of morphine at the initial stages.
Speaker 3: There is a provision in the Coroner's Act which enables
Speaker 3: a witness to say something which can't be used against
Speaker 3: the witness in future.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer explained to Deb that the Deputy State Coroner
Speaker 1: could issue a certain certificate. It would essentially protect her
Speaker 1: in the event that she said anything in her evidence
Speaker 1: which might incriminate herself.
Speaker 3: If you need to avail yourself of that, just feel free.
Speaker 1: To That's when Karl Milivanovitch spoke up again.
Speaker 9: Well, whatever she says is not going to involve any
Speaker 9: legal proceedings.
Speaker 3: Against her Murray and you in relation to recreational drug use.
Speaker 3: I'd like you to describe on oath what's been your
Speaker 3: observation of Murray's recreational drug use around the time of March,
Speaker 3: April and May nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 6: He certainly hasn't used any sort of drugs that would,
Speaker 6: you know, create a state of mind that was not functional.
Speaker 3: You seem to be drawing a distinction between some drugs
Speaker 3: that were taken but might not have had that effect.
Speaker 3: Is that what you're intending to convey.
Speaker 6: Well, Murray is not a drug user on a You were.
Speaker 3: About to say, not on a regular basis.
Speaker 6: Were you He's not a This is very I don't
Speaker 6: know how to answer that, because I, oh, just truthfully,
Speaker 6: all right, truthfully, yes, Murray has you marijuana, but he
Speaker 6: certainly doesn't use it on a day to day basis
Speaker 6: or a week to week basis.
Speaker 3: And tell us about the extent of the use of
Speaker 3: the marijuana. When is the last time to your knowledge
Speaker 3: that he used marijuana? Remember you are on oath.
Speaker 6: I can't honestly say the exact time. It would have
Speaker 6: been quite a long time.
Speaker 3: Ago, early nineteen ninety three. No, No, was he using marijuana?
Speaker 3: Was he or was he not using marijuana to manage
Speaker 3: the pain associated with his back injury.
Speaker 6: No, he wasn't, not at all, not at all.
Speaker 3: No, Now, why didn't you tell the police about breaking
Speaker 3: into Bromwin's unit with the latter.
Speaker 6: Well, obviously it was the wrong thing to do. I
Speaker 6: acknowledged that, but we were concerned about Bromwin at the time.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer then switched to questions which seemed designed to
Speaker 1: show that Bromwin was possibly a fantasist, a deluded woman
Speaker 1: who made up stories about famous people whom she purported
Speaker 1: to know.
Speaker 3: Can you remember brom Wan telling you at some stage
Speaker 3: about how her ex husband and she used to socialize
Speaker 3: with John Singleton. Can you remember John Singleton's name.
Speaker 6: Yes, we had a conversation just over coffee one day
Speaker 6: and she mentioned that she was friends of John Singleton.
Speaker 1: John Singleton at the time was very high profile. He
Speaker 1: was a giant of advertising. He was regarded as a
Speaker 1: lovable rogue. He could not sing a note, but in
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven he released a hit single. It was
Speaker 1: called I Think I'm Drunk Again. It was another era
Speaker 1: upturned run.
Speaker 2: To stand up on two feet too damn proud roll.
Speaker 1: Upturned run to rock two stone to roll got no
Speaker 1: class at all. Tragically, one of John Singleton's daughters was
Speaker 1: murdered in the Bond Eyed Junction stabbings.
Speaker 4: In twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett put to deb that she had asked John
Speaker 1: whether it was true that bronwin and John Singleton were friends.
Speaker 3: And you raised that with mister Winfield at some stage,
Speaker 3: didn't she yes? And he said she's just making it
Speaker 3: up or something like that.
Speaker 6: Didn't he yes, something to that effect.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 6: I just thought, oh, well maybe she did. Maybe she didn't.
Speaker 6: You know, we all know somebody who's a star.
Speaker 9: Perhaps.
Speaker 3: Can you remember at some stage Bronwan's saying to you
Speaker 3: words to the effect, look, I'm a good actress. I'm
Speaker 3: good at fooling people.
Speaker 6: She might have said, oh, I would have liked to
Speaker 6: have been an actress.
Speaker 3: Can you recall having a conversation with mister Winfield where
Speaker 3: you said to him, Bronwan's told me that she's a
Speaker 3: good actress.
Speaker 6: It could have come up in conversation, but she specifically
Speaker 6: didn't say, oh, an actress, I can fool people.
Speaker 10: No.
Speaker 3: Can you remember expressing the view to John Winfield at
Speaker 3: some stage that Bronwin is definitely not well something like that.
Speaker 6: I felt she was just so stressed out with a
Speaker 6: lot of things that had been going on in her
Speaker 6: life with John, And yes, she might have needed some
Speaker 6: time out just to deal with marital issues mainly. That's
Speaker 6: where I felt that she was unwell, in the fact
Speaker 6: that she was not coping with a lot of things
Speaker 6: that had been going on with her life.
Speaker 3: So as of May nineteen ninety three, it was your
Speaker 3: view that she was emotionally drained and really just not
Speaker 3: coping mentally well.
Speaker 6: No, I think she was just a woman who had
Speaker 6: had so much over the years that she was just
Speaker 6: at her wits end. Yeah, emotionally drained more than anything.
Speaker 3: Emotionally drained and well at a breaking point. Would that
Speaker 3: be a fair comment, do you think?
Speaker 6: No, I wouldn't say she was at a breaking point
Speaker 6: because I think she was copying in a sense, but
Speaker 6: not coping in another sense.
Speaker 1: Deb recalled having asked broman about John's reaction to the
Speaker 1: move from Sandstone Crescent to the rental in Byron Street.
Speaker 1: Bromwin had told her friend that John was relaxed about
Speaker 1: that move.
Speaker 6: The impression I've got of John was that his house
Speaker 6: was his castle, and by Bromwin moving out, she posed
Speaker 6: no threat to him as far as taking that away
Speaker 6: from him.
Speaker 3: So it was certainly not the impression that you had
Speaker 3: that John was incredibly angry about her moving out. It was,
Speaker 3: in fact the other way it seem.
Speaker 1: Craig Legate said that by May thirty, nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 1: it was a fortnight since Broman's disappearance, and three days
Speaker 1: after John had officially reported her as a missing person,
Speaker 1: Deb and another friend had been to the ball and
Speaker 1: a police station themselves and they talked to an officer there,
Speaker 1: Julie Donovan.
Speaker 3: It appears to be the case. You didn't say to
Speaker 3: Julie Donovan anything about the unusual circumstances with the car
Speaker 3: lights not being on or the engine not being on.
Speaker 6: No, because I don't think I had the conversation with Murray,
Speaker 6: as I said, until sometime after that.
Speaker 3: Now your major statement, your written statement that's been made
Speaker 3: available to his worship on eighteen September nineteen ninety eight.
Speaker 3: According to the.
Speaker 1: Document, Craig Leggett suggested to Deb that at that stage,
Speaker 1: that's five years later Murray had given deb some more
Speaker 1: information about the vehicle movements.
Speaker 6: Oh, he had. Yes.
Speaker 3: Now, nowhere in the statement do you volunteer the information
Speaker 3: to the effect, Look, there was something strange about the
Speaker 3: vehicle movements. Murray told me no lights, no engine on.
Speaker 6: Because I'm giving the statement. From my perspective, I didn't
Speaker 6: see that, so I didn't feel that it was up
Speaker 6: to me to come forward with that information.
Speaker 3: Was it any part of your thinking on eighteen September
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety eight when you were giving the statement that look,
Speaker 3: maybe Murray's judgment was Is it fuzzy that night?
Speaker 6: No, there was no doubt in my mind with what
Speaker 6: Murray had told me. I knew he would do the
Speaker 6: right thing. It was up to Murray to portray that information,
Speaker 6: not myself because I didn't see anything.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer asked deb Hall whether she knew that members
Speaker 1: of the public have obligations to provide information.
Speaker 4: If they believe it is actually sound.
Speaker 1: I understand, yes, And Craig Leggot added information that really
Speaker 1: warrants being passed on.
Speaker 6: Yes, I understand that.
Speaker 1: He suggested to Deb that part of the reason she
Speaker 1: didn't go to the police earlier to pass it on.
Speaker 1: Part of The reason why Deb, as Craig Leggitt put it,
Speaker 1: had withheld the information from police, was because deb herself
Speaker 1: didn't regard the information from Murray as solid.
Speaker 6: I wasn't withholding information. I knew Murray would disclose what
Speaker 6: he knew. In the initial stages of the investigation, the
Speaker 6: detectives were just treating it as a missing person. We
Speaker 6: just assumed after a period of time, well, she'll always
Speaker 6: be a missing person. And therefore we didn't find it
Speaker 6: relevant to go in there every two months and say
Speaker 6: this is what else we know, because nothing, no feedback
Speaker 6: was coming to us in any way from the detectives
Speaker 6: or the police station in that way.
Speaker 3: You know that John Winfield's father lived for a number
Speaker 3: of years at NUSA, don't you.
Speaker 6: Yes, I believe he did.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 3: Can you remember that John would occasionally leave early and
Speaker 3: visit his father and would drive to NUSA.
Speaker 6: I vaguely remember John going and visiting his father.
Speaker 3: Sure, yes, And can you remember that on those occasions
Speaker 3: we he'd go to visit his father. He would usually
Speaker 3: leave in the middle of the night, and he would
Speaker 3: roll the car out of the driveway with the lights
Speaker 3: off and the engine not running, so as not to
Speaker 3: disturb you guys in the bedroom immediately next to the driveway.
Speaker 6: Yes, but I think sometimes he may have even started
Speaker 6: the car before he drove down the driveway.
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett suggested that if John was leaving the house
Speaker 1: at three or four in the morning, there were good
Speaker 1: reasons not to start the car engine and turn on
Speaker 1: the car lights, with Deb's bedroom being right next door
Speaker 1: to John's driveway. Possibly yes, and that's because, as the
Speaker 1: lawyer added, Deb would have been in bed only a
Speaker 1: matter of meters away from the car engine as it
Speaker 1: was leaving the driveway.
Speaker 3: What's been your observation of Murray's memory over the years.
Speaker 6: He's got an excellent memory. He's better than me, way
Speaker 6: better than me.
Speaker 3: And in terms of Murray's perception, his eyesight and his
Speaker 3: hearing in nineteen ninety three, how was that excellent? I'm
Speaker 3: not doing too well here.
Speaker 6: I'm sorry. I'm only telling the truth.
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett's job with Deb Hall was done. Matt Fordham
Speaker 1: was brief in his re examination of Bromwin's good friend.
Speaker 1: He wanted to know whether, in the years they were neighbors,
Speaker 1: did Deb ever see Bronwyn with any injuries.
Speaker 6: No, I can't say that I ever saw her with
Speaker 6: any injuries.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as
Speaker 1: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.
Speaker 4: You can read.
Speaker 1: More about this case and see a range of photographs
Speaker 1: and other artwork at the website Bronwyn podcast dot com.
Speaker 1: Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first. The production
Speaker 1: and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey, Kristin Amiet,
Speaker 1: Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns, Liam Mendez,
Speaker 1: Sean Callen and Matthew Condon and David Murray, with assistance
Speaker 1: from Isaac Iron's. Audio production for this podcast series is
Speaker 1: by Wasabi Audio and original theme music by Slade Gibson.
Speaker 1: We have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation of
Speaker 1: Bromwin Winfield. We can only do this kind of journalism
Speaker 1: with the support of our subscribers and our major sponsors
Speaker 1: like Harvey Norman.
Speaker 4: For all of our exclusive stories.
Speaker 1: Videos, maps, timelines and documents about this podcast and other
Speaker 1: podcasts including The Teacher's Pet, The Teachers Trial, The Teacher's Accuser,
Speaker 1: Shandy's Story, Shandy's Legacy, and The Night Driver. Go to
Speaker 1: the Australian dot com dot au and subscribe.