WEBVTT - Episode 30: Mountains And Molehills 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:05.320 Listeners are advised that this podcast series contains course language 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:08.960 and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to you 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:42.960 by me Hedley Thomas and The Australian. Before the start 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:46.120 of formal proceedings in front of the public on the 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:50.159 third day of the five day inquest, John Winfield and 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:54.800 his lawyer Craig Leggett must have been busy. When everyone 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:58.440 sat down in the old courtroom in Lismore. The police 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:02.440 officer Matt Fordham wrote to tell the Deputy State Coroner 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:05.120 what had been unfolding behind the scenes. 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:08.280 So I should indicate at the outset I've been handed 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:12.440 by my friend a statutory declaration by Jonathan Winfield dated 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:15.360 today in relation to the property settlement for his first 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:16.120 two marriages. 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:20.800 Craig Leggett then stood to explain exactly what he was 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:23.039 submitting on behalf of his client. 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:26.600 Just before my friend leaves that new worship. The gist 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:29.319 of it is that in relation to the first marriage 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:32.040 to Jenny Mason, there was no house involved in the 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:35.720 property dissolution. It was only a matter of cash. There 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:39.080 was no property was either owned or acquired during the marriage, 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:43.240 so there was no house capable of being transferred John's 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:47.039 lawyer added that in relation to John's second wife, the 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:50.640 woman we've been calling D, there was in fact a 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:55.320 property on the lower eastern end of Sandstone Crescent. This 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:58.360 was not the property which John and Bromwin had built 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:02.400 and lived in together higher up the street. It was 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:05.360 sold prior to the divorce separation for eighty thousand dollars, 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:08.320 the vacant block of land having been purchased for thirty 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:12.720 five thousand dollars. Of the eighty thousand dollars, twenty thousand 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:15.560 dollars was repaid to the mortgagee, which was the Saint 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:19.160 George Bank. As to the balance, fifty thousand dollars went 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:20.040 to mister Winfield. 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:25.160 In other words, D received ten thousand dollars from a 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:30.760 pool of sixty thousand dollars. The Deputy state Coroner, Karl Milivanovitch, 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:35.400 was not told about that by John's lawyer. However, he 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:38.680 must have assumed that D's written statement from when she 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:42.959 spoke to Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor in nineteen ninety eight 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:47.320 would have been read and understood by Karl. Here is 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:51.800 a snippet of D's interview with me from episode three. D, 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:55.960 of course, is not the real name of John's second wife. 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:59.120 It is a pseudonym because when she spoke, she was 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:02.720 anxious to mark ask her identity. She had not even 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:06.280 told her daughters that she had been married to John Winfield. 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:09.960 And you moved to Lennox Head with him. 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:14.080 Yeah, we had a good time up there, but we 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:16.880 actually bought a house up at Sandstone President. 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:20.320 And then you say John was quite bitter about the 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:22.160 settlement following our separation. 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:24.959 Yeah, because he had to sell a house. 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:31.280 You say John didn't want to give me anything. No, well, 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:32.399 how would that have worked out? 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:33.359 No? 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:35.560 Well, that's why I had to go. I went to court. 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:38.320 I had to get a solicitor and go to court 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:40.000 to get my share of the property. 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:43.800 Yeah, we went to court and it was sort of 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:44.480 out in court. 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:51.440 John's lawyer said he also got a car and household furniture. 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:54.600 So it's certainly not accurate to say that two houses 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:57.920 have been lost to two previous wives based on the facts. 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:03.040 As I'm instructed, Craig Leggett made an interesting point. It 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:06.360 was it seemed quite true that Jenny Mason and John 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:09.800 Winfield had not owned a house together when they ended 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:14.320 the relationship. And that's despite several witnesses giving evidence that 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:18.360 John himself had described having lost two houses to his 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:23.039 partners from failed relationships prior to his marriage to Bromwin. 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:28.000 For me, the inescapable point is that John always came 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:31.119 out well in front at the end of a relationship. 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:35.560 In Bromwin's case, John got everything. With this bit of. 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:40.080 Legal housekeeping attended to matt Fordham greeted the first witness 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:41.240 of the third day. 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:43.880 It was Shirley Taylor. 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:47.159 The owner with her husband of the Byron Street townhouse 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:51.200 near Scruffy and Maria's House in Lennox Head, the place 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:54.960 where Bromwin and her daughters began in March nineteen ninety 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:58.200 three to forge a new life of independence from John 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:02.920 and the Sandstone Crescent Proper. It was easy walking distance 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:06.240 to Eden's takeaway and the primary school which Lauren and 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:10.400 Cristal were going to the school, which was quietly visited 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:15.240 recently by New South Wales police seeking attendance records for 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:19.640 Lauren and Crystal from nineteen ninety three. According to a 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:23.839 source who let me know about this, those records would 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:27.240 show the dates the girls were away with their father. 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:29.080 In May of that year. 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:33.279 Matt Fordham took Shirley Taylor back to the day she 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:36.720 received a check for seven hundred dollars from Bromwyn to 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:38.440 cover the bond for the property. 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:41.200 And you say in your statement, ma'am, that later in 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:43.120 the day that you were given the check by bronwin 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:45.720 and John Winfield came to your place and asked you 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:48.080 for the bond money to be given back to you. 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:48.919 Is that correct? 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:52.880 Yes, he was very aggressive. He wanted the money back, 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:54.000 the check back. 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.080 Did he indicate to you who owned the check or 0:05:57.160 --> 0:05:59.640 who owned the money that had been given to you 0:05:59.680 --> 0:05:59.960 for the. 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:03.520 Yeah, well it was just signed by his name, so 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:04.800 I just imagine it was his. 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:08.520 Do you remember whether she used any form of descriptive 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:11.520 words to describe the way she was feeling towards her husband. 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:15.120 No, she just said I hate him and sort of 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:16.560 never wanted to see him again. 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:17.560 That was about it. 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:21.320 And there was no particular event that she was referring 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:25.680 to when she made those comments. No, And ma'am, you 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:29.600 also described on the afternoon of fourteenth May nineteen ninety three, 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:32.599 that's the friday I think that she informed you that 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:35.080 she was moving back to the house at Lennox Head. 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:36.120 Do you recall that. 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:40.040 Yeah, I remember it very well because it was my birthday. 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:43.520 She came over and she said, oh, she was so 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:46.240 happy she was going back to her own home to live. 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:50.200 Did she say why she was going back to the house, just. 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:52.080 That her husband had gone to Sydney to live. 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:55.679 And then you say, ma'am, a couple of days after 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:59.080 Bronwyn had moved out, two men and two women came 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:01.440 to my house and demanded a key to get into 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:03.760 Bronwan's unit to see if she was sick. 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:05.640 That's true. 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:09.440 And they say they were Jehovah's witnesses. Did they explain 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:12.760 that they were from a particular congregation or any particular 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:13.640 church or anything. 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:14.400 No. 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:18.240 And you described turning them away, ma'am in your statement, 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:21.119 then learning that they had gained access to the flat 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:24.200 that Bronwan was using by way of a ladder into 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:25.040 one of the windows. 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.239 Yeah, they hired a ladder from the higher place down 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:28.920 next door. 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:32.720 Ma'am. You've continued in your statement to describe that A 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:35.800 few weeks later, John Winfield comes to your place and 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:38.800 asks to take items that were once owned by Bronwan 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:42.120 from the unit, and that you turned him away, and 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:45.200 then he continues returning to you over a period of 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:48.040 about six weeks. Do you remember how often he is 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:49.840 to come to you asking for those goods? 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:52.520 Probably a couple of times a week. 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:55.720 And do you remember what his demeanor was when he 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:57.600 would come and ask you for these goods? 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:01.040 He was aggressive and he wanted them. I had an 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:03.120 old dog there and he used to ground him too. 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:07.160 Did John Winfield ever indicate to you any reason why 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:09.920 Bronwin would not be returning to the flat in Byron 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:15.200 Street and using those possessions again? No, And you also 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:18.200 describe in your statement that at a latter time you 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:22.240 were cleaning the townhouse and you located a jewelry box 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:25.080 on top of a wardrobe. Do you remember how long 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:28.040 after Bromwin disappeared that you found that jewelry box. 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:31.080 It would have been when I was cleaning it out 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:32.040 to rend it out again. 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:36.080 Shirley added that it would have been sometime in June 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:40.120 or July nineteen ninety three. By then Bromwin had been 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:44.720 missing for several weeks. Matt Fordham went to Shirley Taylor's 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:48.400 nineteen ninety eight statement, in which she listed the contents 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:52.719 of the jewelry box, gold chains, and gold bracelets, a 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:57.240 heart shaped pendant with diamonds, a gold wedding band, gold 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:00.800 engagement ring with eight smaller diamonds around a line to diamond, 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:07.199 and another pendant with multiple diamonds. It was a valuable trove. 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:12.040 Bromwin had little money when she disappeared. We know that 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:15.880 Bromwin had been seeking loans from family, including her uncle 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:20.240 John Reid and aunt Leah Reid. In my view, a 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:24.079 woman desperate for money doesn't start a new life after 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:28.400 leaving her jewelry behind in a rented property. It must 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:31.880 have been worth several thousand dollars, but it was still 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:35.400 in its hiding place in the townhouse while Bromwan was 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:39.320 in the wind as police and Andy Reid in two 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:44.400 thousand and two suspected broman was already dead. In the 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:48.400 courthouse that day, the jewelry box and its contents were 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:50.320 admitted as Exhibit. 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:51.360 Nine without objection. 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:55.600 Shirley peered into the box and confirmed that it and 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:58.840 its contents were what she had found nine years earlier. 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:04.080 Fordham established that Shirley Taylor had no recollection of. 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:08.560 John visiting the rental while Bromwin was living there, nor. 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:12.040 Did Shirley recall having seen him sitting in his car 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:16.120 outside on the road. She was asked by the police 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:20.640 officer Matt Fordham about Broman's dedication to her daughters. 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:23.800 Well, if she ever wanted to just go down the street, 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:25.960 she'd drop them over to my place and I'd look 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:28.560 after them while she went down there, and they'd just 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:30.600 sit in a lounge and play or watch TV. 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:34.079 Was there ever a time when Bromwin would leave the 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:35.720 children unattended. 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:37.160 Not to my knowledge. 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:42.959 No. Apart from demonstrating Bromin's powerful and maternal instincts, the 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:46.880 line of questioning was an effective rebuttal or counter to 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:51.080 the claims of John and his daughter Jody. You'll recall 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:54.640 that in his nineteen ninety eight interview with Glenn Taylor, 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:59.040 and in Jody's police statement that year, John and his 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.240 daughter did picted Bromman as a mother who had left 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:05.800 her children alone with nobody looking after them or looking 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:10.960 out for them. On Saturday May fifteenth. Jody and John 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:14.800 had suggested that this was the reason for John's decision 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:18.960 to suddenly fly from Sydney to Balaner on Sunday. He 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:22.680 was just concerned for the girls, not for possession and 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:27.840 control of the house that Broman had just moved back into. 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:31.839 Craig Leggett had questions for Shirley Taylor, starting with the 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:36.920 clairvoyant and tarot card reader Hen Dragon, but Shirley said 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:40.800 she couldn't shed much light on him. John's lawyer asked 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:43.880 if Shirley had tried to reconnect with Broman to get 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:46.720 the keys back for the townhouse which Shirley owned. 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:47.760 Yeah. 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:50.840 Well, I kept on ringing her phone number in Sandstone Crescent. 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:54.160 It would just ring out all the time. I thought 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:56.680 she'd be busy moving and I just kept on ringing, 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:59.400 probably for a week, and there was no answer. 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:04.160 John's lawyer spent some time asking Shirley about the people 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:09.319 she had suspected word Jehovah's witnesses breaking into Townhouse number 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:14.640 five Bromwin's place days after she had disappeared from Sandstone Crescent. 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:18.240 There was one woman smecking more, but then there was another. 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:19.760 One used to say a little bit. 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:22.960 As soon as my sister told me there was someone there, 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:25.080 we both went over and asked them. 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:26.080 How did they get in? 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:28.480 They were all in there because one got in the 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:30.840 window and then they opened the front door and the 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:32.000 others came in that way. 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:36.800 Shirley, who was worried these strangers were possibly going to 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:40.320 take Bromwin's things, had asked the four to leave, and 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:44.320 she said that they did leave peacefully. You'll hear more 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:48.000 about this when Bromwin's good friend and neighbor Deb Hall 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:52.280 goes to the witness stand later in this episode, after 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:56.000 Craig Leggett finished, Matt Fordham had a bit more to 0:12:56.160 --> 0:13:00.920 ask the landlady. She couldn't recall what mail, if any, 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:05.520 went to Bromin's letterbox after she disappeared, nor what happened to. 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:09.440 It, ma'am. The letterboxes for those townhouses are they lockable? 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:11.800 Do they have a key required to open them? 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:12.600 Yes? 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:17.679 The deputy state coroner, Karl Miliavanovitch had questions. 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:18.960 Too, Missus Taylor. 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:20.480 Just something I'd like to ask. 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:23.120 When you approached the four people, you say we're all 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:24.920 in the unit, and you asked them to leave. 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:26.400 Did they leave immediately? 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:29.520 They just said they still wanted to look around, and 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:32.360 I said, well she's not here, and they said, oh. 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:35.440 Well we'll go, and you closed the door and locked up. 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:36.760 Yeah. 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:38.439 Did you see them carrying anything? 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:39.240 No? 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:44.520 One of Bromman's neighbors who lived in a nearby townhouse. 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:46.800 Alan Fisher went forward next. 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.880 So you say in your statement that originally, when Bronin 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:54.200 was living in another townhouse, that you knew her to 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:57.760 say hello, but you didn't know her terribly well. But 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:01.160 you would make an observation, sir, in your statement, that 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:03.760 she was very watchful over her two kids, and she 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:06.280 was not the type to leave her kids for even 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:09.960 five minutes. Was there any particular event that caused you 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:12.760 to tell the police that, well, I. 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:15.240 Sort of faced the back of Shirley's there, and every 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:17.480 time she went anywhere, she used to call Shirley to 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:20.600 watch the children. She wouldn't go without them, you know, 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:22.720 wouldn't leave them on their own, and I can't even 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:24.560 remember them being there on their own. 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:28.320 You say in your statement, sir, that you recall Bronwin 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:31.720 saying to you, I hope you didn't hear all that commotion, 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:36.480 and that you replied, I didn't hear anything. Bronwin says, 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:39.240 I have just had a hell of an argument over 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:42.440 the phone with my husband. He's coming down tomorrow and 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:45.560 I'm terrified about what he might do. Do you recall 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:50.120 that conversation today, sir? That's correct, did she make any 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:53.920 other comments about what she intended to do. All she 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:55.479 said was, look. 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:57.680 I'm terrified about what he's going to do when he 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:01.680 comes tomorrow. And I said, we're look at putting security 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:04.160 doors on as soon as my son comes home, which 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:05.920 we did, and she thanked us for doing that, and 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:07.360 I didn't see it till the next day. 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:10.520 Then did she indicate where she thought that her husband 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:11.320 was coming from? 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:14.400 Well, the way, I thought that he was either in 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.080 Brisbane or he was in the area. She said he 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:20.800 was coming down. That's all I just assumed myself. She 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:23.040 said tomorrow, because that's why we put the doors on. 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:25.320 She was expecting him on the Friday morning. 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:28.120 And so is it the case that you spoke to 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:31.680 her again on the Friday afternoon about three pm when 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:34.880 you saw her with a trailer in the driveway removing 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:36.880 some of her possessions. Is that correct? 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:39.400 Yeah, I'd come home from work and she was there 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:41.840 with someone with a trailer and a youth taking possessions 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:43.920 out of the place. And she come down to where 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:46.600 I was and I just said to her, what's going on? 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:49.520 And she said, we're moving back to the family home. 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:52.440 I said, how'd you get on with your husband, and 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:55.800 she said it was better than expected. She said, he's 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:58.280 letting us move back in. That was the word she 0:15:58.440 --> 0:15:58.880 said to me. 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:02.880 So when she was moving her possessions out of Byron Street, 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:05.160 did she have anyone with her giving her a hand? 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:08.640 She had one gentleman. He looked like he mowed lawns 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:10.880 and things. He had a trailer on behind you, And 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:12.600 I just asked her, did she want a hand with 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:15.640 any of her gear? She said, no, I'm leaving the rest. 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:18.320 I'll pick that up later on. I think I did 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:20.040 end up helping her move one wardrobe. 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:24.560 Some days later, Alan Fisher saw the group of four 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:26.520 adults using the ladder to. 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:28.400 Enter Bromwin's rented townhouse. 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:31.560 All I know is I knew she wasn't there, that 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:34.040 she'd gone, And when I came home, the ladder was 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:36.320 up against the back eaves and the window was open, 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:39.240 and I could see people moving around. So immediately I 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:40.880 ran into Shirley and I said, what's. 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:41.480 Going on over there? 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:44.520 She said they were just worried, concerned about her health 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:47.120 and wanted to have a look through the place. She 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:49.880 said they weren't there after anything, They were just concerned 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:51.840 about her. 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:54.720 Mister Fisher, you made your statement in July of nineteen 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:58.120 ninety nine. That was some six years after the events 0:16:58.160 --> 0:16:59.960 took place. That's so, isn't it. 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:01.520 Yeah? 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:03.480 In order to get you back to the relevant period 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:07.040 of time, did the detective jog your memory that it 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:09.880 was a Friday, that was the day when Bromwin left 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:14.240 the unit. No, you had an independent recollection six years 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:16.800 later that it was a Friday, did you. 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:19.920 Well, I knew when she left and when people were 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:22.600 talking about that she'd gone missing, and sort of it 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:25.159 was still fresh in my mind. It's something that happened 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:27.560 at the time. You sort of think back about it. 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:30.359 And it wasn't your birthday on the Friday or anything, 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:30.880 was it. 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:31.320 No. 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:36.720 Craig Leggett then dedicated many questions to the incident, involving 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:42.560 Broman's friends deb Denise Barnard, her husband Les, and Murray Nolan. 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:45.359 When they had gone to the townhouse and used the 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:50.960 ladder to get in, they are not Jehovah's witnesses. Questions 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:54.080 about the layout of the townhouse, the direction of the ladder, 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.600 the presence of cars in the area and the driveway, 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:01.359 and whether the higher equipment venue had previously been operated 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:05.480 as a nursery, and how long in Alan Fisher's estimation, 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:09.320 the interlopers had been at the property prior to Alan 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:14.600 alerting Shirley Taylor. The lawyer drilled into all of these matters, 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:18.240 and it was difficult to see why. Perhaps it was 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:22.440 all about his next question, for some unexplained reason. 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:25.200 Did the people inside the unit appear to be going 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:27.879 through any wardrobes or looking for possessions to take away? 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:30.080 We were able to see anything like that? 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:33.680 Well, I didn't observe it that closely. All I saw 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:35.840 was people there, and as I said, as far as 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:38.760 I was concerned, he could have been tradesmen. I didn't 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:39.879 observe it any more than that. 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:44.200 Moving to another topic, you say that Bron on another 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:47.760 Friday said to you it went better than what I thought. 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:50.399 He has agreed to let us move back into the 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:54.679 family home. Yes, and that's a conversation which stuck in 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:55.720 your recollection, is it? 0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:58.280 That's right? Because I was the one that asked her. 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:00.560 I said, how did it go today? And she said 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:02.879 it weren't real good. It went better than I expected. 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:05.520 She said, he's agreed to let us move back in 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:06.280 the family home. 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:34.880 Matt Fordham addressed the next witness, Desiree Flood. Like Alan Fisher, 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:38.880 she was another townhouse neighbor she had met Bromwin. 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:41.879 Ma'am, there's a couple of things that you relate in 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:44.360 your statement that I'll ask you to expand upon. 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:49.280 The police officer assisting the coroner related the part of 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:53.240 her nineteen ninety eight statement in which she believed that 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:56.239 Bromwin appeared to be happy and told her that she 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:59.560 was moving back into her family home as her husband 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:01.440 John was going to stay. 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:05.000 In Sydney today. Are you still quite certain that it 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:07.800 was the Sunday the sixteenth that you had that conversation 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:08.440 with Bronwin. 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:10.800 Yeah, I am absolutely. 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:14.520 And ma'am, do you recall her demeanor when she was 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:17.760 telling you about her husband coming Well, I thought it. 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:19.600 Was a bit funny that she actually said that to me, 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:22.040 because we never had personal conversations anyway. 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:25.400 Did she indicate to you why she was telling you. 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:28.400 This, No, No, I think she was just preparing us 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:31.280 to hear a noise, maybe an argument or something. The 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:34.399 units were very close you could hear through the walls sometimes. 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:39.000 Have you heard any arguments occurring inside Bronwyn's unit before no. 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:42.399 Have you ever heard her talking on the telephone before? 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:45.639 Well, we could hear, but we never listened like you 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:47.159 could hear people talking on the phone. 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:48.520 But you didn't take that much. 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:51.720 Notice when you heard Bromwin talking on the phone. Could 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:53.440 you determine her tone of voice? 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:55.159 No, not really. 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:57.040 She didn't give me a reason to think, you know, 0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:58.320 she was upset or anything. 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:00.959 And ma'am you say that, but that was the last 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:04.760 time you saw Bronwin on that Sunday sixteen May. Yes, 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:08.440 you made some observations of Bronwyn's appearance at the time. 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:09.840 Do you remember what they were? 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:10.600 Yeah? 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:11.000 I do. 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:13.000 I went to her door and knocked on the door 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:15.240 and she answered she didn't want to talk. 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:16.720 But I think she had got a bit of a 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:17.480 black eye. 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:19.439 She had make up covering her eye, and she had 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:23.080 sunglasses on, not dark glasses, but she had glasses on it. 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:26.480 And you could see firstly the glasses that she was wearing. 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:28.119