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Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series contains course language

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Speaker 1: and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to you

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Speaker 1: by me Hedley Thomas and The Australian. Before the start

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Speaker 1: of formal proceedings in front of the public on the

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Speaker 1: third day of the five day inquest, John Winfield and

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Speaker 1: his lawyer Craig Leggett must have been busy. When everyone

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Speaker 1: sat down in the old courtroom in Lismore. The police

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Speaker 1: officer Matt Fordham wrote to tell the Deputy State Coroner

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Speaker 1: what had been unfolding behind the scenes.

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Speaker 2: So I should indicate at the outset I've been handed

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Speaker 2: by my friend a statutory declaration by Jonathan Winfield dated

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Speaker 2: today in relation to the property settlement for his first

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Speaker 2: two marriages.

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Speaker 1: Craig Leggett then stood to explain exactly what he was

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Speaker 1: submitting on behalf of his client.

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Speaker 3: Just before my friend leaves that new worship. The gist

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Speaker 3: of it is that in relation to the first marriage

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Speaker 3: to Jenny Mason, there was no house involved in the

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Speaker 3: property dissolution. It was only a matter of cash. There

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Speaker 3: was no property was either owned or acquired during the marriage,

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Speaker 3: so there was no house capable of being transferred John's

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Speaker 3: lawyer added that in relation to John's second wife, the

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Speaker 3: woman we've been calling D, there was in fact a

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Speaker 3: property on the lower eastern end of Sandstone Crescent. This

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Speaker 3: was not the property which John and Bromwin had built

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Speaker 3: and lived in together higher up the street. It was

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Speaker 3: sold prior to the divorce separation for eighty thousand dollars,

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Speaker 3: the vacant block of land having been purchased for thirty

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Speaker 3: five thousand dollars. Of the eighty thousand dollars, twenty thousand

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Speaker 3: dollars was repaid to the mortgagee, which was the Saint

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Speaker 3: George Bank. As to the balance, fifty thousand dollars went

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Speaker 3: to mister Winfield.

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Speaker 1: In other words, D received ten thousand dollars from a

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Speaker 1: pool of sixty thousand dollars. The Deputy state Coroner, Karl Milivanovitch,

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Speaker 1: was not told about that by John's lawyer. However, he

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Speaker 1: must have assumed that D's written statement from when she

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Speaker 1: spoke to Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor in nineteen ninety eight

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Speaker 1: would have been read and understood by Karl. Here is

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Speaker 1: a snippet of D's interview with me from episode three. D,

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Speaker 1: of course, is not the real name of John's second wife.

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Speaker 1: It is a pseudonym because when she spoke, she was

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Speaker 1: anxious to mark ask her identity. She had not even

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Speaker 1: told her daughters that she had been married to John Winfield.

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Speaker 4: And you moved to Lennox Head with him.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, we had a good time up there, but we

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Speaker 5: actually bought a house up at Sandstone President.

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Speaker 1: And then you say John was quite bitter about the

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Speaker 1: settlement following our separation.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, because he had to sell a house.

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Speaker 1: You say John didn't want to give me anything. No, well,

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Speaker 1: how would that have worked out?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 7: Well, that's why I had to go. I went to court.

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Speaker 1: I had to get a solicitor and go to court

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Speaker 1: to get my share of the property.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, we went to court and it was sort of

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Speaker 5: out in court.

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Speaker 1: John's lawyer said he also got a car and household furniture.

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Speaker 3: So it's certainly not accurate to say that two houses

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Speaker 3: have been lost to two previous wives based on the facts.

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Speaker 1: As I'm instructed, Craig Leggett made an interesting point. It

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Speaker 1: was it seemed quite true that Jenny Mason and John

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Speaker 1: Winfield had not owned a house together when they ended

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Speaker 1: the relationship. And that's despite several witnesses giving evidence that

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Speaker 1: John himself had described having lost two houses to his

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Speaker 1: partners from failed relationships prior to his marriage to Bromwin.

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Speaker 1: For me, the inescapable point is that John always came

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Speaker 1: out well in front at the end of a relationship.

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Speaker 4: In Bromwin's case, John got everything. With this bit of.

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Speaker 1: Legal housekeeping attended to matt Fordham greeted the first witness

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Speaker 1: of the third day.

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Speaker 4: It was Shirley Taylor.

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Speaker 1: The owner with her husband of the Byron Street townhouse

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Speaker 1: near Scruffy and Maria's House in Lennox Head, the place

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Speaker 1: where Bromwin and her daughters began in March nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: three to forge a new life of independence from John

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Speaker 1: and the Sandstone Crescent Proper. It was easy walking distance

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Speaker 1: to Eden's takeaway and the primary school which Lauren and

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Speaker 1: Cristal were going to the school, which was quietly visited

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Speaker 1: recently by New South Wales police seeking attendance records for

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Speaker 1: Lauren and Crystal from nineteen ninety three. According to a

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Speaker 1: source who let me know about this, those records would

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Speaker 1: show the dates the girls were away with their father.

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Speaker 4: In May of that year.

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Speaker 1: Matt Fordham took Shirley Taylor back to the day she

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Speaker 1: received a check for seven hundred dollars from Bromwyn to

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Speaker 1: cover the bond for the property.

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Speaker 2: And you say in your statement, ma'am, that later in

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Speaker 2: the day that you were given the check by bronwin

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Speaker 2: and John Winfield came to your place and asked you

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Speaker 2: for the bond money to be given back to you.

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Speaker 2: Is that correct?

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Speaker 6: Yes, he was very aggressive. He wanted the money back,

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Speaker 6: the check back.

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Speaker 2: Did he indicate to you who owned the check or

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Speaker 2: who owned the money that had been given to you

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Speaker 2: for the.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, well it was just signed by his name, so

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Speaker 8: I just imagine it was his.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember whether she used any form of descriptive

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Speaker 2: words to describe the way she was feeling towards her husband.

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Speaker 8: No, she just said I hate him and sort of

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Speaker 8: never wanted to see him again.

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Speaker 6: That was about it.

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Speaker 2: And there was no particular event that she was referring

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Speaker 2: to when she made those comments. No, And ma'am, you

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Speaker 2: also described on the afternoon of fourteenth May nineteen ninety three,

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Speaker 2: that's the friday I think that she informed you that

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Speaker 2: she was moving back to the house at Lennox Head.

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Speaker 2: Do you recall that.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I remember it very well because it was my birthday.

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Speaker 8: She came over and she said, oh, she was so

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Speaker 8: happy she was going back to her own home to live.

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Speaker 2: Did she say why she was going back to the house, just.

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Speaker 8: That her husband had gone to Sydney to live.

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Speaker 2: And then you say, ma'am, a couple of days after

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Speaker 2: Bronwyn had moved out, two men and two women came

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Speaker 2: to my house and demanded a key to get into

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Speaker 2: Bronwan's unit to see if she was sick.

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Speaker 6: That's true.

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Speaker 2: And they say they were Jehovah's witnesses. Did they explain

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Speaker 2: that they were from a particular congregation or any particular

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Speaker 2: church or anything.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 2: And you described turning them away, ma'am in your statement,

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Speaker 2: then learning that they had gained access to the flat

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Speaker 2: that Bronwan was using by way of a ladder into

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Speaker 2: one of the windows.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, they hired a ladder from the higher place down

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Speaker 8: next door.

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Speaker 2: Ma'am. You've continued in your statement to describe that A

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Speaker 2: few weeks later, John Winfield comes to your place and

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Speaker 2: asks to take items that were once owned by Bronwan

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Speaker 2: from the unit, and that you turned him away, and

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Speaker 2: then he continues returning to you over a period of

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Speaker 2: about six weeks. Do you remember how often he is

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Speaker 2: to come to you asking for those goods?

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Speaker 6: Probably a couple of times a week.

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Speaker 2: And do you remember what his demeanor was when he

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Speaker 2: would come and ask you for these goods?

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Speaker 8: He was aggressive and he wanted them. I had an

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Speaker 8: old dog there and he used to ground him too.

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Speaker 2: Did John Winfield ever indicate to you any reason why

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Speaker 2: Bronwin would not be returning to the flat in Byron

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Speaker 2: Street and using those possessions again? No, And you also

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Speaker 2: describe in your statement that at a latter time you

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Speaker 2: were cleaning the townhouse and you located a jewelry box

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Speaker 2: on top of a wardrobe. Do you remember how long

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Speaker 2: after Bromwin disappeared that you found that jewelry box.

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Speaker 8: It would have been when I was cleaning it out

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Speaker 8: to rend it out again.

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Speaker 1: Shirley added that it would have been sometime in June

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Speaker 1: or July nineteen ninety three. By then Bromwin had been

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Speaker 1: missing for several weeks. Matt Fordham went to Shirley Taylor's

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight statement, in which she listed the contents

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Speaker 1: of the jewelry box, gold chains, and gold bracelets, a

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Speaker 1: heart shaped pendant with diamonds, a gold wedding band, gold

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Speaker 1: engagement ring with eight smaller diamonds around a line to diamond,

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Speaker 1: and another pendant with multiple diamonds. It was a valuable trove.

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Speaker 1: Bromwin had little money when she disappeared. We know that

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Speaker 1: Bromwin had been seeking loans from family, including her uncle

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Speaker 1: John Reid and aunt Leah Reid. In my view, a

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Speaker 1: woman desperate for money doesn't start a new life after

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Speaker 1: leaving her jewelry behind in a rented property. It must

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Speaker 1: have been worth several thousand dollars, but it was still

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Speaker 1: in its hiding place in the townhouse while Bromwan was

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Speaker 1: in the wind as police and Andy Reid in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and two suspected broman was already dead. In the

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Speaker 1: courthouse that day, the jewelry box and its contents were

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Speaker 1: admitted as Exhibit.

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Speaker 4: Nine without objection.

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Speaker 1: Shirley peered into the box and confirmed that it and

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Speaker 1: its contents were what she had found nine years earlier.

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Speaker 1: Fordham established that Shirley Taylor had no recollection of.

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Speaker 4: John visiting the rental while Bromwin was living there, nor.

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Speaker 1: Did Shirley recall having seen him sitting in his car

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Speaker 1: outside on the road. She was asked by the police

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Speaker 1: officer Matt Fordham about Broman's dedication to her daughters.

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Speaker 8: Well, if she ever wanted to just go down the street,

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Speaker 8: she'd drop them over to my place and I'd look

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Speaker 8: after them while she went down there, and they'd just

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Speaker 8: sit in a lounge and play or watch TV.

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Speaker 2: Was there ever a time when Bromwin would leave the

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Speaker 2: children unattended.

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Speaker 7: Not to my knowledge.

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Speaker 1: No. Apart from demonstrating Bromin's powerful and maternal instincts, the

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Speaker 1: line of questioning was an effective rebuttal or counter to

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Speaker 1: the claims of John and his daughter Jody. You'll recall

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Speaker 1: that in his nineteen ninety eight interview with Glenn Taylor,

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Speaker 1: and in Jody's police statement that year, John and his

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Speaker 1: daughter did picted Bromman as a mother who had left

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Speaker 1: her children alone with nobody looking after them or looking

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Speaker 1: out for them. On Saturday May fifteenth. Jody and John

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Speaker 1: had suggested that this was the reason for John's decision

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Speaker 1: to suddenly fly from Sydney to Balaner on Sunday. He

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Speaker 1: was just concerned for the girls, not for possession and

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Speaker 1: control of the house that Broman had just moved back into.

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Speaker 1: Craig Leggett had questions for Shirley Taylor, starting with the

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Speaker 1: clairvoyant and tarot card reader Hen Dragon, but Shirley said

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Speaker 1: she couldn't shed much light on him. John's lawyer asked

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Speaker 1: if Shirley had tried to reconnect with Broman to get

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Speaker 1: the keys back for the townhouse which Shirley owned.

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Speaker 9: Yeah.

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Speaker 8: Well, I kept on ringing her phone number in Sandstone Crescent.

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Speaker 8: It would just ring out all the time. I thought

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Speaker 8: she'd be busy moving and I just kept on ringing,

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Speaker 8: probably for a week, and there was no answer.

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Speaker 1: John's lawyer spent some time asking Shirley about the people

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Speaker 1: she had suspected word Jehovah's witnesses breaking into Townhouse number

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Speaker 1: five Bromwin's place days after she had disappeared from Sandstone Crescent.

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Speaker 8: There was one woman smecking more, but then there was another.

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Speaker 6: One used to say a little bit.

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Speaker 8: As soon as my sister told me there was someone there,

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Speaker 8: we both went over and asked them.

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Speaker 6: How did they get in?

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Speaker 8: They were all in there because one got in the

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Speaker 8: window and then they opened the front door and the

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Speaker 8: others came in that way.

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Speaker 1: Shirley, who was worried these strangers were possibly going to

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Speaker 1: take Bromwin's things, had asked the four to leave, and

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Speaker 1: she said that they did leave peacefully. You'll hear more

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Speaker 1: about this when Bromwin's good friend and neighbor Deb Hall

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Speaker 1: goes to the witness stand later in this episode, after

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Speaker 1: Craig Leggett finished, Matt Fordham had a bit more to

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Speaker 1: ask the landlady. She couldn't recall what mail, if any,

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Speaker 1: went to Bromin's letterbox after she disappeared, nor what happened to.

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Speaker 2: It, ma'am. The letterboxes for those townhouses are they lockable?

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Speaker 2: Do they have a key required to open them?

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Speaker 6: Yes?

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Speaker 1: The deputy state coroner, Karl Miliavanovitch had questions.

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Speaker 2: Too, Missus Taylor.

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Speaker 9: Just something I'd like to ask.

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Speaker 2: When you approached the four people, you say we're all

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Speaker 2: in the unit, and you asked them to leave.

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Speaker 9: Did they leave immediately?

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Speaker 8: They just said they still wanted to look around, and

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Speaker 8: I said, well she's not here, and they said, oh.

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Speaker 9: Well we'll go, and you closed the door and locked up.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 9: Did you see them carrying anything?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 1: One of Bromman's neighbors who lived in a nearby townhouse.

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Speaker 1: Alan Fisher went forward next.

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Speaker 2: So you say in your statement that originally, when Bronin

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Speaker 2: was living in another townhouse, that you knew her to

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Speaker 2: say hello, but you didn't know her terribly well. But

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Speaker 2: you would make an observation, sir, in your statement, that

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Speaker 2: she was very watchful over her two kids, and she

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Speaker 2: was not the type to leave her kids for even

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Speaker 2: five minutes. Was there any particular event that caused you

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Speaker 2: to tell the police that, well, I.

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Speaker 10: Sort of faced the back of Shirley's there, and every

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Speaker 10: time she went anywhere, she used to call Shirley to

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Speaker 10: watch the children. She wouldn't go without them, you know,

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Speaker 10: wouldn't leave them on their own, and I can't even

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Speaker 10: remember them being there on their own.

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Speaker 2: You say in your statement, sir, that you recall Bronwin

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Speaker 2: saying to you, I hope you didn't hear all that commotion,

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Speaker 2: and that you replied, I didn't hear anything. Bronwin says,

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Speaker 2: I have just had a hell of an argument over

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Speaker 2: the phone with my husband. He's coming down tomorrow and

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Speaker 2: I'm terrified about what he might do. Do you recall

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Speaker 2: that conversation today, sir? That's correct, did she make any

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Speaker 2: other comments about what she intended to do. All she

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Speaker 2: said was, look.

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Speaker 10: I'm terrified about what he's going to do when he

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Speaker 10: comes tomorrow. And I said, we're look at putting security

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Speaker 10: doors on as soon as my son comes home, which

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Speaker 10: we did, and she thanked us for doing that, and

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Speaker 10: I didn't see it till the next day.

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Speaker 2: Then did she indicate where she thought that her husband

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Speaker 2: was coming from?

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Speaker 10: Well, the way, I thought that he was either in

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Speaker 10: Brisbane or he was in the area. She said he

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Speaker 10: was coming down. That's all I just assumed myself. She

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Speaker 10: said tomorrow, because that's why we put the doors on.

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Speaker 10: She was expecting him on the Friday morning.

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Speaker 2: And so is it the case that you spoke to

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Speaker 2: her again on the Friday afternoon about three pm when

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Speaker 2: you saw her with a trailer in the driveway removing

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Speaker 2: some of her possessions. Is that correct?

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Speaker 10: Yeah, I'd come home from work and she was there

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Speaker 10: with someone with a trailer and a youth taking possessions

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Speaker 10: out of the place. And she come down to where

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Speaker 10: I was and I just said to her, what's going on?

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Speaker 10: And she said, we're moving back to the family home.

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Speaker 10: I said, how'd you get on with your husband, and

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Speaker 10: she said it was better than expected. She said, he's

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Speaker 10: letting us move back in. That was the word she

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Speaker 10: said to me.

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Speaker 2: So when she was moving her possessions out of Byron Street,

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Speaker 2: did she have anyone with her giving her a hand?

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Speaker 10: She had one gentleman. He looked like he mowed lawns

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Speaker 10: and things. He had a trailer on behind you, And

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Speaker 10: I just asked her, did she want a hand with

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Speaker 10: any of her gear? She said, no, I'm leaving the rest.

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Speaker 10: I'll pick that up later on. I think I did

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Speaker 10: end up helping her move one wardrobe.

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Speaker 1: Some days later, Alan Fisher saw the group of four

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Speaker 1: adults using the ladder to.

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Speaker 4: Enter Bromwin's rented townhouse.

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Speaker 10: All I know is I knew she wasn't there, that

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Speaker 10: she'd gone, And when I came home, the ladder was

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Speaker 10: up against the back eaves and the window was open,

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Speaker 10: and I could see people moving around. So immediately I

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Speaker 10: ran into Shirley and I said, what's.

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Speaker 4: Going on over there?

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Speaker 10: She said they were just worried, concerned about her health

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Speaker 10: and wanted to have a look through the place. She

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Speaker 10: said they weren't there after anything, They were just concerned

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Speaker 10: about her.

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Speaker 3: Mister Fisher, you made your statement in July of nineteen

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Speaker 3: ninety nine. That was some six years after the events

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Speaker 3: took place. That's so, isn't it.

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Speaker 10: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: In order to get you back to the relevant period

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Speaker 3: of time, did the detective jog your memory that it

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Speaker 3: was a Friday, that was the day when Bromwin left

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Speaker 3: the unit. No, you had an independent recollection six years

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Speaker 3: later that it was a Friday, did you.

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Speaker 10: Well, I knew when she left and when people were

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Speaker 10: talking about that she'd gone missing, and sort of it

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Speaker 10: was still fresh in my mind. It's something that happened

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Speaker 10: at the time. You sort of think back about it.

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Speaker 3: And it wasn't your birthday on the Friday or anything,

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Speaker 3: was it.

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Speaker 8: No.

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Speaker 1: Craig Leggett then dedicated many questions to the incident, involving

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Speaker 1: Broman's friends deb Denise Barnard, her husband Les, and Murray Nolan.

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Speaker 1: When they had gone to the townhouse and used the

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Speaker 1: ladder to get in, they are not Jehovah's witnesses. Questions

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Speaker 1: about the layout of the townhouse, the direction of the ladder,

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Speaker 1: the presence of cars in the area and the driveway,

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Speaker 1: and whether the higher equipment venue had previously been operated

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Speaker 1: as a nursery, and how long in Alan Fisher's estimation,

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Speaker 1: the interlopers had been at the property prior to Alan

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Speaker 1: alerting Shirley Taylor. The lawyer drilled into all of these matters,

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Speaker 1: and it was difficult to see why. Perhaps it was

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Speaker 1: all about his next question, for some unexplained reason.

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Speaker 3: Did the people inside the unit appear to be going

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Speaker 3: through any wardrobes or looking for possessions to take away?

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Speaker 3: We were able to see anything like that?

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Speaker 10: Well, I didn't observe it that closely. All I saw

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Speaker 10: was people there, and as I said, as far as

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Speaker 10: I was concerned, he could have been tradesmen. I didn't

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Speaker 10: observe it any more than that.

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Speaker 3: Moving to another topic, you say that Bron on another

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Speaker 3: Friday said to you it went better than what I thought.

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Speaker 3: He has agreed to let us move back into the

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Speaker 3: family home. Yes, and that's a conversation which stuck in

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Speaker 3: your recollection, is it?

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Speaker 10: That's right? Because I was the one that asked her.

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Speaker 10: I said, how did it go today? And she said

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Speaker 10: it weren't real good. It went better than I expected.

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Speaker 10: She said, he's agreed to let us move back in

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Speaker 10: the family home.

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Speaker 1: Matt Fordham addressed the next witness, Desiree Flood. Like Alan Fisher,

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Speaker 1: she was another townhouse neighbor she had met Bromwin.

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Speaker 2: Ma'am, there's a couple of things that you relate in

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Speaker 2: your statement that I'll ask you to expand upon.

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Speaker 1: The police officer assisting the coroner related the part of

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Speaker 1: her nineteen ninety eight statement in which she believed that

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Speaker 1: Bromwin appeared to be happy and told her that she

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Speaker 1: was moving back into her family home as her husband

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Speaker 1: John was going to stay.

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Speaker 2: In Sydney today. Are you still quite certain that it

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Speaker 2: was the Sunday the sixteenth that you had that conversation

368
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Speaker 2: with Bronwin.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I am absolutely.

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Speaker 2: And ma'am, do you recall her demeanor when she was

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Speaker 2: telling you about her husband coming Well, I thought it.

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Speaker 11: Was a bit funny that she actually said that to me,

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Speaker 11: because we never had personal conversations anyway.

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Speaker 2: Did she indicate to you why she was telling you.

375
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Speaker 11: This, No, No, I think she was just preparing us

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Speaker 11: to hear a noise, maybe an argument or something. The

377
00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,399
Speaker 11: units were very close you could hear through the walls sometimes.

378
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Speaker 2: Have you heard any arguments occurring inside Bronwyn's unit before no.

379
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Speaker 2: Have you ever heard her talking on the telephone before?

380
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Speaker 11: Well, we could hear, but we never listened like you

381
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Speaker 11: could hear people talking on the phone.

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Speaker 7: But you didn't take that much.

383
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Speaker 2: Notice when you heard Bromwin talking on the phone. Could

384
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Speaker 2: you determine her tone of voice?

385
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Speaker 7: No, not really.

386
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Speaker 11: She didn't give me a reason to think, you know,

387
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Speaker 11: she was upset or anything.

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Speaker 2: And ma'am you say that, but that was the last

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Speaker 2: time you saw Bronwin on that Sunday sixteen May. Yes,

390
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Speaker 2: you made some observations of Bronwyn's appearance at the time.

391
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Speaker 2: Do you remember what they were?

392
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Speaker 1: Yeah?

393
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Speaker 2: I do.

394
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Speaker 11: I went to her door and knocked on the door

395
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Speaker 11: and she answered she didn't want to talk.

396
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Speaker 7: But I think she had got a bit of a

397
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Speaker 7: black eye.

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Speaker 11: She had make up covering her eye, and she had

399
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Speaker 11: sunglasses on, not dark glasses, but she had glasses on it.

400
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Speaker 2: And you could see firstly the glasses that she was wearing.

401
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,119
Speaker 2: Did she normally wear glasses?

402
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Speaker 7: I don't think she didn't know. I don't know.

403
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 2: Are you able to indicate roughly what size the bruise

404
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:36,480
Speaker 2: that you saw may have been?

405
00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:39,399
Speaker 7: It came down, it was quite big.

406
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Speaker 2: You are indicating with your finger in the witness box.

407
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,880
Speaker 2: There a line from underneath your eye extending out towards

408
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Speaker 2: the side of your left cheek, the left side of

409
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Speaker 2: your face, just above the cheekbone. Is that correct?

410
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:54,920
Speaker 7: That's correct? Yeah?

411
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Speaker 2: And did you ever discuss that with her the bruise?

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Speaker 7: No, I didn't know. She didn't want to talk that day.

413
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Speaker 2: What was it that prompts you to say that she

414
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,080
Speaker 2: didn't want to talk that day?

415
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:07,120
Speaker 7: She had a head down.

416
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Speaker 11: When I knocked on the door, she opened the door

417
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Speaker 11: and I said to her, would you mind moving your car?

418
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Speaker 2: Ma'am? You say in your statement that you found it

419
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 2: extraordinary that Bronwn would leave her kids and have no

420
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,359
Speaker 2: further contact with them. What things did you see that

421
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,920
Speaker 2: prompts you to say that that was an extraordinary thing?

422
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Speaker 11: Well, what I did see of her with her children

423
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,439
Speaker 11: was if they were in the courtyard playing, she'd be

424
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Speaker 11: sitting on the step. If she went inside, the kids

425
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,920
Speaker 11: would go inside with her. The front door was always closed.

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Speaker 11: That's about it. Basically, whenever they were allowed outside, she

427
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Speaker 11: was outside with them.

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Speaker 1: There was no challenge to any of it from John's lawyer,

429
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 1: Craig Leggott, And then it was time for Deb Hall.

430
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Speaker 1: I first heard from Romwin's good friend and neighbor sixteen

431
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Speaker 1: years after she gave her evidence in the two thousand

432
00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 1: and two inquest in Lismore. An email from Deb to

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00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 1: me in August twenty eighteen was triggered by my investigation

434
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 1: for the Teacher's Pet podcast series. Just like with Bromwin,

435
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,400
Speaker 1: the story of the disappearance of Lynn Dawson now known

436
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 1: as Lynn Simms was unfolding with weekly episodes, and Deb

437
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 1: was listening in.

438
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Speaker 4: She wrote to me, back then.

439
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Speaker 6: This man John Winfield continues as does Chris Dawson, to

440
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,840
Speaker 6: proclaim his wife just ran off and joined a cult

441
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 6: or went with another man. There is so much more

442
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 6: I could inform you of in this case, but it

443
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 6: would take me hours. I just felt I needed to

444
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,359
Speaker 6: highlight the extreme similarities of my best friend's case. I

445
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,399
Speaker 6: really hope that justice is done for both these poor women.

446
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 1: I replied an hour later, and I wrote, Hi, Debbie,

447
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 1: maybe it's serendipity someone else has mentioned this case to me.

448
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 1: I won't be able to get to it for a while,

449
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,640
Speaker 1: but I'm interested in knowing as much as possible about it.

450
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,119
Speaker 1: Can you help by writing as much as you can,

451
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 1: I would treat it as a confidential disclosure.

452
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 4: Dare Band.

453
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: Her friendship with Bromwin reminded me of two other women.

454
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: One was Julie Andrew. The other was her neighbor and

455
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 1: good friend, Lynn, who disappeared from Bayview on Sydney's Northern

456
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,679
Speaker 1: Beaches in nineteen eighty two. Bayview was the name of

457
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 1: the first episode of The Teacher's Pet, and Julie Andrew

458
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:31,640
Speaker 1: was an integral part of it.

459
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 12: My friendship with Lynn was just a this beautiful gift

460
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 12: because she was so ah.

461
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 7: She was beautiful.

462
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 12: She's just so lovely and sweet. She was a truly sweet, caring,

463
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 12: loving woman.

464
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: Like Debhaul, Julie Andrew was suspicious from a very early

465
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 1: stage that Lynn, a mother of two girls, had been murdered.

466
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 12: The best way to dispose of a body when you

467
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 12: live in the bush is to put it in the bush.

468
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 12: And that's what I say, thank you did on the

469
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 12: Friday night.

470
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,160
Speaker 1: In two thousand and two. Matt Fordham was deeply involved

471
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 1: in Lynd's case. He had presented the brief of evidence

472
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: the year before to a senior coroner who recommended a

473
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 1: murder prosecution, which the then Director of Public prosecutions, Nicholas

474
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 1: Cattery refused to run on the grounds as he believed

475
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 1: that there was insufficient evidence. In two thousand and three,

476
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: matt Fordham and the police officer Damien Lohne presented the

477
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: brief again, but with several more statements to another senior coroner,

478
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 1: Karl Milvanovitch, and after days of public hearings in Sydney,

479
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: he too recommended a murder prosecution, but again the same

480
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: DPP refused to give the green light. In two thousand

481
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 1: and two, between those two inquests for Lynd's case, matt

482
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 1: Fordham was in Lismore for the missing and presumed dead

483
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 1: mother of two girls, Bromwan Joey Winfield. He started asking

484
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: Bromwyn's good friend Deb Hall about her visit to the

485
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: rented accommodation in Byron Street shortly after Bromwin had disappeared.

486
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 6: We were very concerned about Brown at this stage, and

487
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 6: I believe that Les obtained a ladder and he climbed

488
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 6: up onto the roof and gained access to the unit.

489
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 2: And did you see anything inside the unit?

490
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 6: No, We just sort of looked around to see if

491
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 6: there was anything there that indicated the whereabouts of Bromwin

492
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 6: or if she was there.

493
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 2: Do you know of anything or any reason that may

494
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 2: have led missus Taylor to believe that you may have

495
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:36,120
Speaker 2: been Jehovah's witnesses.

496
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 6: No, I'm not a Jehovah's witness.

497
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham relied on Deb's nineteen ninety eight police statement,

498
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 1: as he told her he wanted to expand on her

499
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: description in that document of having met Bromwin. When she

500
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: introduced herself, having newly arrived in Sandstone Crescent, where she

501
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 1: and John were building that house, Bromwyn became upset and

502
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:03,120
Speaker 1: started crying. When Deb asked her what was wrong, Bromwin

503
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: confided that her husband John had been giving her a

504
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: hard time.

505
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, I do remember that. Yes, she came to my

506
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 6: house to introduce herself, and then she got very upset,

507
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 6: and I thought something is not right here, So I inquired,

508
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 6: are you okay? And she indicated that she'd had a

509
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 6: few problems with her marriage. She had a few year

510
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 6: dealings with John that she was upset with. She didn't

511
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 6: elaborate terribly much, though at that stage.

512
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: The police officer suggested to Deb that the two women

513
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 1: became firm friends and met almost on a daily basis.

514
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 1: They helped each other with childcare and other needs. Matt

515
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: Fordham paraphrased deb statement in which she had said John

516
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: was fanatical about having the house spotlessly clean, how if

517
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: the kids spilt anything, he would become angry, and how

518
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 1: he resented Bromwan's friends coming to visit her at the house.

519
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: Bromwyn had told Deb that John would later verbally abuse

520
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 1: her if a friend dropped in. She was always short

521
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: of money too, because John would not give her enough.

522
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham asked about the frequency of these sorts of

523
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 1: concerns raised by Bromwyn.

524
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 6: It came up quite a lot. Yeah, over the time

525
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 6: that I knew Bromwyn, more so than you would imagine

526
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 6: with normal conversations with other people.

527
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 2: Yes, And over the couple of years that you have

528
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 2: lived next door to Bronwyn, could you estimate to us

529
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 2: roughly how often she would complain of problems with her

530
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 2: marriage to you?

531
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 6: Well, I saw her almost every day. I'd say it

532
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 6: would have to be at least once or twice a week. Yes.

533
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: The deeply personal subject of Bromwin's pregnancy and termination were

534
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: raised in the courtroom.

535
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 6: Well, she told me, I think she told me before

536
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 6: she actually told John that she thought she might have

537
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 6: been pregnant. She adored children because I think I'd had

538
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 6: my last baby around the same time. And yeah, she

539
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 6: was very upset that she might have had to make

540
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 6: the decision to terminate the pregnancy, which she eventually did,

541
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 6: but she was in quite a turmoil about that. Well,

542
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 6: she wanted the baby, but knowing that John didn't.

543
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 2: Did she indicate to you what she feared may have

544
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 2: happened had she kept the pregnancy.

545
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 6: I think she felt that a marriage would really fall apart.

546
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 6: It would have put added strain on it.

547
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,239
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham went to another part of deb statement in

548
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: which she disclosed that in early nineteen ninety three Bromwyn

549
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: confided she might leave John and how according to Bromwyn,

550
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: John had told her that if she left, she would

551
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: get nothing, and that included the children, the house, and

552
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: all the furniture. Bromwyn had said that John told her

553
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 1: that all she would get would be the clothes on

554
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: her back, and she.

555
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 6: Used to say to me, I can't leave him. You've

556
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 6: got no idea what is capable of and I would

557
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 6: get nothing. So that was a general theory behind that.

558
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 2: Do you remember the circle instances of this topic being discussed.

559
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 6: It actually took place on and off over the six months,

560
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 6: really because she was having a lot of trouble for

561
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 6: quite a while.

562
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 2: Did she ever discuss with you places that she may

563
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 2: go to to run away from John?

564
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 3: No.

565
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: The police officer asked if Bromwin ever talked, for example,

566
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: about whether her family in Sydney might be a source

567
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: of assistance to her if she had to flee John.

568
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 6: No.

569
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: What about her talking to a solicitor. Matt fordamasked, did

570
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: Bromwin disclose this to her friend and.

571
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 6: Neighbor after she'd moved out. Yes, she indicated she was

572
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 6: going to seek legal advice as to what she was

573
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 6: entitled to.

574
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: Then the police officer spoke about Bromwin's move back into

575
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: the house and how Deb was surprised and concerned about

576
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: John and his reaction to this, how Bromwin had told

577
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: Deb that there were people Bromwyn could ring if there

578
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: were any troubles. Did Deb recall where she was when

579
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: Bromwin told her these things.

580
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 6: At the front door, right, because she came to my

581
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 6: house and I entered the door and there she was

582
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 6: with the children, and I asked her what are you doing?

583
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 6: And she said, I'm moving back into the house. And

584
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 6: I immediately just thought if John finds out she's in

585
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 6: the house, there'll be dramas So I said, what's John

586
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 6: going to do when he finds out you're back in

587
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 6: the house And she said, that's okay. There's people I

588
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 6: can contact if there's any trouble.

589
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: On the Sunday morning of May sixteen, according to Deb's

590
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: statement to the police five years later, Bromwin went over

591
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: to her neighbor's house again to ask Deb to look

592
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 1: after Crystal and Lauren from eleven am to four pm

593
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: while Bromwin went to work. Matt Fordham wanted to know

594
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: if Deb was aware that Bromwin would be at Eden's takeaway.

595
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 4: For that shift.

596
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 6: That's right, yes, I think she mostly planned her work

597
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 6: around the school hours through the week and on weekend

598
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 6: it would be well. She'd approached myself or other friends,

599
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 6: but they were always taken care of when she worked.

600
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,959
Speaker 1: Yes, About four point thirty pm, Deb's statement goes on,

601
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: Bromwan arrived back at Sandstone Crescent and she collected the

602
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: children from Deb's house. Matt Fordham read aloud the part

603
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: where Deb had related Broman's conversation that afternoon, how happy

604
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: she and the children were to be back in the house,

605
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: and how Bromwin had disclosed that she had a busy

606
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: week ahead of her, a school week for Crystal and Lauren.

607
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: Perhaps most importantly, at no stage, according to Deb, did

608
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: Bromwin mention any plan to go away to be absent

609
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: from the house or her girls.

610
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 2: Was there any other things that Bromwin mentioned to you

611
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 2: that she was planning to do that week.

612
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 6: I think she mentioned that she still had her things

613
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 6: at the unit and she was planning on retrieving those

614
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 6: and bringing them back to the house. Just general clothing,

615
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 6: possessions of the children, things like that. Right, she had

616
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 6: work she had to do that week at the takeaway shop. Yes,

617
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 6: just general chores of a mother.

618
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: Basically, Deb went to bed at about eight thirty pm

619
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: on the Sunday night. She confirmed in her evidence that

620
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: she didn't hear or see anything until she woke about

621
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: six point thirty the next morning and saw that the

622
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: white Ford Falcon was missing from the driveway.

623
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 4: Was that unusual?

624
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 3: Yes?

625
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 2: And you mentioned that to your partner Murray, and he

626
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 2: told you something that he saw happened the previous night well.

627
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 6: I remember I was in the bathroom opening the bathroom window,

628
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 6: and my bathroom basically looked straight up onto the driveway,

629
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 6: and that's when I noticed that the vehicle wasn't there,

630
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 6: because she always passed the car on the driveway, never

631
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 6: in the garage. I thought, that's odd at six thirty

632
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 6: in the morning, and I walked back into the bedroom

633
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 6: and just happened to say to Murray, car's missing. It's

634
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 6: a bit strange. It's half past six in the morning.

635
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 6: I wonder where she could have gone at this hour,

636
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 6: you know, so early. And he happened to just mention

637
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 6: to me that he'd heard it leave the night before,

638
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,879
Speaker 6: and I just sort of thought, hmm, okay, and I said,

639
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 6: that's a bit strange. I wonder where she's gone.

640
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 2: And was there any discussion about the car leaving with

641
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 2: your husband at the time.

642
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 6: No, because I basically was running late for work, and

643
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 6: so I got the kids off the school and went

644
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 6: off to work.

645
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: The police officer asked whether at that stage deb had

646
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 1: any discussion with Maurray about him having noted or seen

647
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 1: that the car had its engine turned off when it left.

648
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 6: No, he was still in bed at that stage because

649
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 6: he'd hurt his back. I remember just getting ready and

650
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 6: off I went to work. There was no more discussion.

651
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 2: Do you remember when it was or have you since

652
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 2: learned about the engine not being turned on?

653
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 6: I have yes.

654
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 2: And when was it that you first heard about that?

655
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 6: It could have been six months later or it could

656
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 6: have been before that. I don't have any real recollection

657
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 6: of when that exactly was.

658
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,720
Speaker 2: And how did you find out about that through Murray?

659
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: Was that also the case regarding the lights? Matt Fordham asked, yes, right.

660
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 6: He thought it was strange at the time, so I said, well, yeah,

661
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 6: that doesn't seem right. Perhaps you should let somebody know

662
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 6: about that, and I think he did eventually.

663
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: The police officer asked if Murray spoke to Deb further

664
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: about the car and its exit from the driveway.

665
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 6: He told me he heard at bottom out on the roadway.

666
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 6: He thought it was strange. We'd never heard it do

667
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 6: that before.

668
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: Deb was asked whether she recalled anything in particular about

669
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 1: those telephone calls that she had tried to make to

670
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,439
Speaker 1: Bromwin after these unusual events.

671
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 6: That was mainly what sticks in my mind that I

672
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 6: couldn't get on to her.

673
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,240
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham reminded deb about some inquiries that she made

674
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: with her own children about Bromwyn's girls and whether they

675
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 1: were at school.

676
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 2: Did Bromwin ever mention to you places that she may

677
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 2: have gone for a couple of days, or did she

678
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 2: ever mention to you that she may in fact go

679
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 2: away for a couple of days.

680
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 6: No, she never mentioned to me that she may have

681
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 6: gone away. I thought, well, if the children are at school,

682
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 6: then obviously Bromwin's somewhere. But because they weren't at school,

683
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,240
Speaker 6: I assumed that children were with Bromwin and that perhaps

684
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 6: she may have decided to go away for a couple

685
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 6: of days with the kids.

686
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 1: By Tuesday, according to debs statement, Bromwin's other good friend,

687
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: Denise Barnard, telephoned. Denise had been called by Andy Reid

688
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: in Sydney. He told Denise that John and the children

689
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,720
Speaker 1: were in Sydney. Andy was concerned about Bromwin. Matt Fordham

690
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: asked if there was any other conversation deb could recall.

691
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 6: So only that I was bewildered when she told me

692
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 6: that John and the children were in Sydney, and I

693
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:09,439
Speaker 6: just thought, when did John come up? When was he here?

694
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 6: That was my immediate reaction. I got more concerned then. Yes,

695
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 6: I was quite shocked to learn he'd been there. And

696
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 6: you say that nobody had seen or heard from Bronwin

697
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 6: and that this caused you to feel very concerned about

698
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 6: her well being, and that Murray, your husband, had told

699
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 6: you that he'd received a phone call from John Winfield

700
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 6: asking him to go into the house and check if

701
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 6: there was any sign of Bronwin. And you say that

702
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 6: you decided to go down to the house with Murray

703
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 6: and have a look through. Did you look in the

704
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 6: rooms inside the house? Yes, didn't touch anything, just walked through,

705
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:52,240
Speaker 6: had a good look, just to satisfy my curiosity that yes,

706
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 6: there was nothing amiss there.

707
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,280
Speaker 2: And in your statement, ma'am, you described that the house

708
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 2: was generally quite untidy, and that there was still food

709
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 2: on plates, where washing in the machine beds not made,

710
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 2: and that it appeared to you as if though the

711
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 2: house had been left in a hurry. Was this the

712
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 2: very first time that you'd seen the house in such

713
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 2: a state?

714
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:13,919
Speaker 1: Oh?

715
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, And on each of these occasions that you'd

716
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 2: been to the house previously, how was the house maintained?

717
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 6: Inside spotless? You could eat off the floor.

718
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,479
Speaker 2: And the things that you say in your statement about

719
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 2: the food on plates, where washing in the machine, and

720
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 2: beds not made. Did that strike you as being particularly unusual.

721
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 6: Oh, very very unusual. Yes, John was more than meticulous

722
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 6: one around the house. But she did keep it tidy,

723
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 6: and yes, she knew she basically had to.

724
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 2: Now, ma'am, inside the house. Is it possible to gain

725
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 2: access to the garage from inside the house?

726
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 6: Yes, there is a door that connects the house to

727
00:38:58,000 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 6: the garage.

728
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:00,959
Speaker 2: And did you go to the garage at all?

729
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 6: No, didn't get into the garage.

730
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 2: Did you see a Medicare check on the kitchen bench.

731
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 6: No, I didn't see anything like that.

732
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 2: If there had been a Medicare check there, do you

733
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 2: feel confident that you would have seen.

734
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 6: It, Yes, definitely.

735
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 2: You described going to the main bedroom and you say

736
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 2: that all of Bromin's clothes, makeup, and personal items appeared

737
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 2: to be there except her handbag.

738
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 6: Yes, the only bag I saw was this cane bag

739
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 6: with nothing in it.

740
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 2: And ma'am, you say that inside the house there was

741
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,720
Speaker 2: no signs of any struggle in the house. Is that correct?

742
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 6: That's correct.

743
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: Matt fordamasked deb if it was possible that when John

744
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 1: was relating to Deb what had happened on the Sunday

745
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: night with Bromwin having purportedly made a telephone call and

746
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 1: then a car coming to pick her up. Had John

747
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 1: said it might have been a taxi?

748
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 6: No, he told me a person had yeah turned up

749
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 6: at the house. To me, he indicated it was a

750
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 6: car because I asked him whether he saw who it

751
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 6: was or what the car looks like, and he made

752
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 6: no indication to me that he knew who it was.

753
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 2: You describe in your statement, ma'am, some general conversation, mostly

754
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 2: about where Bronwin would go to. Do you remember what

755
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 2: the ideas of places she may have gone to were

756
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 2: coming from John? From John?

757
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 6: Yes, I think Queensland was mentioned, but apart from that

758
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 6: not much else.

759
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 3: No.

760
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 2: And you continue in your statement, ma'am, to describe that

761
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 2: John told you that he thought she must have gone

762
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,760
Speaker 2: somewhere for a holiday somewhere. Is that correct?

763
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:39,439
Speaker 4: Yes?

764
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,800
Speaker 2: Did John use the words holiday?

765
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 6: Yes?

766
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 2: Yes.

767
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 1: Did he ever convey that he felt that Bromwin would

768
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: not be coming back to the house, the police officer

769
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 1: asked Deb.

770
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 6: No, No, he didn't convey to me that she wasn't

771
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 6: coming back to the house.

772
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 2: Did he indicate to you a thing about a boyfriend

773
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 2: that Bromwin may have had.

774
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 6: He'd indicated to me a few, yes, a few fables.

775
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 6: I believe that she'd run off with a certain gentleman

776
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,439
Speaker 6: in town, one of which was a Lance Emery. And yes,

777
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 6: I just found that a bit unbelievable, But yes, he

778
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 6: did try and indicate a few scenarios of who she

779
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 6: may have gone off with.

780
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 1: Before returning to the balance of Deb's evidence on day

781
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 1: three of the inquest, Let's look at what appears to

782
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 1: be a pattern of conduct by John in suggesting that

783
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: Bromwin had gone away with a lover. Megan Reid wrote

784
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 1: in her diary in nineteen ninety three that John told

785
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: her Bromwin had run off with a boyfriend. The detective

786
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor made a note in nineteen ninety eight about

787
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: John's angry phone call to him in which John stated

788
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 1: that Bromwin would be with some as John put it,

789
00:41:56,160 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 1: rich sugar Daddy Lennox head local, and that Armstrong recalled

790
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: that the other detective, Graham Discin, had repeatedly suggested to

791
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 1: her in nineteen ninety three that Bromwin had quote run

792
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: off with a fella unquote, no prizes for guessing the

793
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 1: probable source of that information. Bromwan used to go to

794
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 1: Bernie's hairdressing saleon opposite Eden's takeaway in Lennox Head, and

795
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 1: Bernie recalled being visited there by Graham discin here's a

796
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 1: reminder from episode five.

797
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 5: This is how he spoke to me. Come on, you're

798
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 5: in here, all you girls, and you know it.

799
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:38,399
Speaker 6: She's done.

800
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 7: I said, what are you talking about?

801
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:41,760
Speaker 3: And I've got on the cli.

802
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:45,399
Speaker 5: Horse straight away and he said, you've got the gots here.

803
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:47,959
Speaker 5: I said, I haven't got the goths here to spit

804
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 5: it out and what you want. And he went, you

805
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 5: know she's run off with somebody. She would have told

806
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 5: you that a boyfriend. He said it about three times. Oh,

807
00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 5: she's got a feller. She's run off to the fella

808
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 5: that I said. She was a lovely Clyde. That's all

809
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 5: I know.

810
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 7: I said, I know nothing personally about the girl.

811
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 3: I said, but I'll tell you what.

812
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:10,919
Speaker 5: That's something I would never believe that she's left those

813
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 5: two little girls. And you know I've stuck to that

814
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 5: headley all the way through it, all the way through it.

815
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,720
Speaker 1: John told Bromwin's sister Kim Marshall in mid nineteen ninety

816
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: three that he believed Bromin was having an affair with

817
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: another man. He told Kim and her brother Andy that

818
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: Bromwin had been quote running around town on the back

819
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:37,720
Speaker 1: of a motorbike end quote, and John told a number

820
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:41,280
Speaker 1: of people, including Michelle and Andy and Meghan and Kim

821
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 1: and deb and Murray, that Bromwin must have returned to

822
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: the house weeks later because assigned Medicare check had been

823
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: left on the kitchen bench, and John suggested that Bromwin

824
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: must have had another man because a pair of John's

825
00:43:55,239 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: jeans and the jumper were also missing, he claimed. Graham

826
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: Diskin's police running sheet in nineteen ninety three actually noted

827
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: investigations into the possibility of Bromwin having run off with

828
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 1: any of three potential men. One was Pendragon, the tarot

829
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 1: card reader and clairvoyant, who was even placed under surveillance

830
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: by Graham Discan. Another was Gary Jackson or Jacko, who

831
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 1: worked at Eden's Takeaway with Bromwin. Jacko did ride a

832
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: motorbike around Lennox and Bromwin was fond of him. She

833
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 1: believed they might have a future together, but inconveniently for

834
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 1: John's story. Gary Jackson was in New Zealand when Bromwin disappeared.

835
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 1: The third man, Lance Emery, was spoken to by Graham Discan.

836
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: Lance worked at the surf shop next to Eden's Takeaway,

837
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: and he told Graham Discin in nineteen ninety three that

838
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: he sometimes spoke to Bromwin and they had coffee together

839
00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: once out the front of the shops.

840
00:44:58,800 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 4: Where they worked.

841
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: He said there was never any talk between him and

842
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:08,399
Speaker 1: Bromwin about a potential romantic relationship if Bromwyn had an

843
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 1: intimate relationship with someone other than John. In early nineteen

844
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:17,359
Speaker 1: ninety three, she confided in No One and nobody has

845
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 1: come up with a single sintilla of evidence to support

846
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 1: what looks like a baseless smeer for John's claims to

847
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 1: be true. Bromwyn hid her new man from everyone she knew,

848
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 1: her colleagues at the takeaway, the other young mums at

849
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 1: the local school playgroup, the three solicitors Bromwyn visited in

850
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 1: early nineteen ninety three, her brother Andy and sister in

851
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 1: law Michelle, her cousin Megan, sisters Kim and Melissa, her

852
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 1: Byron Street neighbors, and landlady, her Sandstone Crescent neighbors, and

853
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 1: her close friends Deb Haul and Denise Barnard, and the

854
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 1: woman we have been calling Joan. There is a single

855
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: common denominator in the claims about Bromwin purportedly running off

856
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 1: with a so called boyfriend, John Winfield. Now let's go

857
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 1: back to the inquest and the police officer Matt Fordham's

858
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:18,320
Speaker 1: questioning of Deb Hall about some of her other conversations

859
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: with John soon after Bromin disappeared.

860
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 2: He didn't indicate to you at this stage any ideas

861
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 2: about her running off with a religious group or anything

862
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:32,439
Speaker 2: like that. No, he didn't indicate to you anything about

863
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 2: Bromwin leaving because of some form of mental illness or

864
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 2: something like that.

865
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:39,840
Speaker 6: He mentioned to me that Broman's mother had done the

866
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 6: same thing to her, So he was indicating to me

867
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 6: that you know, this is not unusual, it's in the family.

868
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 1: In that context, after Bromwan had gone missing, did John

869
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 1: ever indicate that he was concerned that Bromwin might cause

870
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 1: him to.

871
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 4: Lose the house? The police officer asked Deb.

872
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 6: No, not after she'd gone missing.

873
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 1: No, what about whether he was concerned about Bromin divorcing him?

874
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 1: And taking off with the children.

875
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 6: No, No, nothing at all.

876
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 2: And do you recall what John's attitudes towards reporting her

877
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 2: missing was.

878
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 6: He wasn't that keen to do it, basically at the time.

879
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 6: I think this was in the early days of when

880
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 6: she'd gone missing, because I was just very concerned about

881
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,760
Speaker 6: her and I just thought that the police involvement needed

882
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 6: to be had, And he did not appear to me

883
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 6: when I mentioned it to him, to want to rush

884
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 6: in and do that.

885
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:39,959
Speaker 2: And ma'am, over the years that you knew Bronwin, would

886
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,439
Speaker 2: it be a possibility, ma'am, that she would voluntarily leave

887
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 2: her children unattended for such a period of time. No.

888
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,919
Speaker 1: The police officer asked about whether she formed a view

889
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 1: about John's parenting skills. Were they up to looking after

890
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:57,320
Speaker 1: the two girls at that time?

891
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 6: No, I mean any male could do it, but he

892
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 6: did not spend as much time with the children as

893
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 6: what broman would have.

894
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: Did John ever express any dissatisfaction that Bromwin was not

895
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:14,720
Speaker 1: there to look after the children, the police officer asked deb.

896
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 9: No.

897
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham took deb to the part of her statement

898
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: in which she recalled John telephoning her to ask her

899
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 1: to look after the two girls while he went to

900
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: ball On a police station to report Bromwin as a

901
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: missing person. Deb remembered commenting to John that it was

902
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: about nine thirty pm, and she asked him why didn't

903
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: he report her missing in the morning. John had a response.

904
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 2: To this, as Deb recalled, whilst it was still fresh

905
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:42,720
Speaker 2: in his mind.

906
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 6: Though the words that are used, that's the words he used.

907
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 1: The police officer asked Deb if she could recall anything

908
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 1: in particular that might have prompted John to want to

909
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 1: do it that late at night.

910
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 6: Oh, I think I did actually mention to him that

911
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,760
Speaker 6: if he didn't, I would because I was worried.

912
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:06,800
Speaker 1: Deb was perplexed about the documented timing of John's report

913
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: to the police. She believed that it was in early.

914
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 4: June, not late May.

915
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: John's lawyer, Craig Leggett, went straight to this discrepancy. Craig

916
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: Leggett pointed out to Deb that it was obvious from

917
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:24,280
Speaker 1: the running sheets that Jonathan Winfield had reported Bromwin missing

918
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:28,440
Speaker 1: on May twenty seven. He wanted to know whether Deb

919
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 1: accepted that the running sheet entry was probably right and

920
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 1: that Deb was mistaken.

921
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 6: I thought it was the long weekend in June, and

922
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,799
Speaker 6: I think the conversation I had with John was why

923
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 6: don't you wait till tomorrow? And he didn't want to

924
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 6: do that because he didn't want the kids to know

925
00:49:46,800 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 6: where he was going.

926
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 1: Maury's back injury and his hospitalization were approached, the topic

927
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:20,280
Speaker 1: would get a lot of attention during questioning of Murray

928
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:23,240
Speaker 1: later that afternoon in the court room in Lismore.

929
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 6: You could subpoena the records if you wish. But I

930
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:30,279
Speaker 6: do work at the hospital myself, but I think he

931
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 6: was given panadine for the pain. He possibly could have

932
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 6: had a bit of morphine at the initial stages.

933
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:40,240
Speaker 3: There is a provision in the Coroner's Act which enables

934
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 3: a witness to say something which can't be used against

935
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:43,360
Speaker 3: the witness in future.

936
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 1: John's lawyer explained to Deb that the Deputy State Coroner

937
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 1: could issue a certain certificate. It would essentially protect her

938
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 1: in the event that she said anything in her evidence

939
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 1: which might incriminate herself.

940
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 3: If you need to avail yourself of that, just feel free.

941
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 1: To That's when Karl Milivanovitch spoke up again.

942
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 9: Well, whatever she says is not going to involve any

943
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 9: legal proceedings.

944
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 3: Against her Murray and you in relation to recreational drug use.

945
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 3: I'd like you to describe on oath what's been your

946
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 3: observation of Murray's recreational drug use around the time of March,

947
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 3: April and May nineteen ninety three.

948
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:27,760
Speaker 6: He certainly hasn't used any sort of drugs that would,

949
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 6: you know, create a state of mind that was not functional.

950
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 3: You seem to be drawing a distinction between some drugs

951
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 3: that were taken but might not have had that effect.

952
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 3: Is that what you're intending to convey.

953
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:45,399
Speaker 6: Well, Murray is not a drug user on a You were.

954
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 3: About to say, not on a regular basis.

955
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:52,399
Speaker 6: Were you He's not a This is very I don't

956
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 6: know how to answer that, because I, oh, just truthfully,

957
00:51:56,320 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 6: all right, truthfully, yes, Murray has you marijuana, but he

958
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:03,719
Speaker 6: certainly doesn't use it on a day to day basis

959
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 6: or a week to week basis.

960
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 3: And tell us about the extent of the use of

961
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:11,760
Speaker 3: the marijuana. When is the last time to your knowledge

962
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:15,800
Speaker 3: that he used marijuana? Remember you are on oath.

963
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:20,319
Speaker 6: I can't honestly say the exact time. It would have

964
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 6: been quite a long time.

965
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 3: Ago, early nineteen ninety three. No, No, was he using marijuana?

966
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,320
Speaker 3: Was he or was he not using marijuana to manage

967
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:32,360
Speaker 3: the pain associated with his back injury.

968
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:36,280
Speaker 6: No, he wasn't, not at all, not at all.

969
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 3: No, Now, why didn't you tell the police about breaking

970
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:42,320
Speaker 3: into Bromwin's unit with the latter.

971
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 6: Well, obviously it was the wrong thing to do. I

972
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 6: acknowledged that, but we were concerned about Bromwin at the time.

973
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:54,880
Speaker 1: John's lawyer then switched to questions which seemed designed to

974
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:59,280
Speaker 1: show that Bromwin was possibly a fantasist, a deluded woman

975
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 1: who made up stories about famous people whom she purported

976
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:03,359
Speaker 1: to know.

977
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 3: Can you remember brom Wan telling you at some stage

978
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 3: about how her ex husband and she used to socialize

979
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,919
Speaker 3: with John Singleton. Can you remember John Singleton's name.

980
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 6: Yes, we had a conversation just over coffee one day

981
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 6: and she mentioned that she was friends of John Singleton.

982
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 1: John Singleton at the time was very high profile. He

983
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:30,319
Speaker 1: was a giant of advertising. He was regarded as a

984
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 1: lovable rogue. He could not sing a note, but in

985
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven he released a hit single. It was

986
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:41,359
Speaker 1: called I Think I'm Drunk Again. It was another era

987
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: upturned run.

988
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 2: To stand up on two feet too damn proud roll.

989
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 1: Upturned run to rock two stone to roll got no

990
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 1: class at all. Tragically, one of John Singleton's daughters was

991
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 1: murdered in the Bond Eyed Junction stabbings.

992
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 4: In twenty twenty four.

993
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,320
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett put to deb that she had asked John

994
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: whether it was true that bronwin and John Singleton were friends.

995
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 3: And you raised that with mister Winfield at some stage,

996
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 3: didn't she yes? And he said she's just making it

997
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 3: up or something like that.

998
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 6: Didn't he yes, something to that effect.

999
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 4: Yes.

1000
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:28,760
Speaker 6: I just thought, oh, well maybe she did. Maybe she didn't.

1001
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:31,479
Speaker 6: You know, we all know somebody who's a star.

1002
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 9: Perhaps.

1003
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 3: Can you remember at some stage Bronwan's saying to you

1004
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 3: words to the effect, look, I'm a good actress. I'm

1005
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 3: good at fooling people.

1006
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 6: She might have said, oh, I would have liked to

1007
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 6: have been an actress.

1008
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 3: Can you recall having a conversation with mister Winfield where

1009
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 3: you said to him, Bronwan's told me that she's a

1010
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 3: good actress.

1011
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 6: It could have come up in conversation, but she specifically

1012
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 6: didn't say, oh, an actress, I can fool people.

1013
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 10: No.

1014
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:05,239
Speaker 3: Can you remember expressing the view to John Winfield at

1015
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:08,919
Speaker 3: some stage that Bronwin is definitely not well something like that.

1016
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 6: I felt she was just so stressed out with a

1017
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:14,279
Speaker 6: lot of things that had been going on in her

1018
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 6: life with John, And yes, she might have needed some

1019
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 6: time out just to deal with marital issues mainly. That's

1020
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 6: where I felt that she was unwell, in the fact

1021
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 6: that she was not coping with a lot of things

1022
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 6: that had been going on with her life.

1023
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 3: So as of May nineteen ninety three, it was your

1024
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:37,360
Speaker 3: view that she was emotionally drained and really just not

1025
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 3: coping mentally well.

1026
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 6: No, I think she was just a woman who had

1027
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 6: had so much over the years that she was just

1028
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 6: at her wits end. Yeah, emotionally drained more than anything.

1029
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 3: Emotionally drained and well at a breaking point. Would that

1030
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:55,359
Speaker 3: be a fair comment, do you think?

1031
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 6: No, I wouldn't say she was at a breaking point

1032
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:01,319
Speaker 6: because I think she was copying in a sense, but

1033
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 6: not coping in another sense.

1034
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 1: Deb recalled having asked broman about John's reaction to the

1035
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 1: move from Sandstone Crescent to the rental in Byron Street.

1036
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 1: Bromwin had told her friend that John was relaxed about

1037
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 1: that move.

1038
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 6: The impression I've got of John was that his house

1039
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:23,360
Speaker 6: was his castle, and by Bromwin moving out, she posed

1040
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 6: no threat to him as far as taking that away

1041
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:26,400
Speaker 6: from him.

1042
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,280
Speaker 3: So it was certainly not the impression that you had

1043
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 3: that John was incredibly angry about her moving out. It was,

1044
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:34,759
Speaker 3: in fact the other way it seem.

1045
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:39,799
Speaker 1: Craig Legate said that by May thirty, nineteen ninety three,

1046
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 1: it was a fortnight since Broman's disappearance, and three days

1047
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 1: after John had officially reported her as a missing person,

1048
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 1: Deb and another friend had been to the ball and

1049
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:54,919
Speaker 1: a police station themselves and they talked to an officer there,

1050
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 1: Julie Donovan.

1051
00:56:57,480 --> 00:56:59,360
Speaker 3: It appears to be the case. You didn't say to

1052
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 3: Julie Donovan anything about the unusual circumstances with the car

1053
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:05,279
Speaker 3: lights not being on or the engine not being on.

1054
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:09,240
Speaker 6: No, because I don't think I had the conversation with Murray,

1055
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 6: as I said, until sometime after that.

1056
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 3: Now your major statement, your written statement that's been made

1057
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 3: available to his worship on eighteen September nineteen ninety eight.

1058
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 3: According to the.

1059
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 1: Document, Craig Leggett suggested to Deb that at that stage,

1060
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:28,360
Speaker 1: that's five years later Murray had given deb some more

1061
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 1: information about the vehicle movements.

1062
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 6: Oh, he had. Yes.

1063
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 3: Now, nowhere in the statement do you volunteer the information

1064
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:39,680
Speaker 3: to the effect, Look, there was something strange about the

1065
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:42,440
Speaker 3: vehicle movements. Murray told me no lights, no engine on.

1066
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:46,919
Speaker 6: Because I'm giving the statement. From my perspective, I didn't

1067
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 6: see that, so I didn't feel that it was up

1068
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 6: to me to come forward with that information.

1069
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 3: Was it any part of your thinking on eighteen September

1070
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:58,800
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety eight when you were giving the statement that look,

1071
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 3: maybe Murray's judgment was Is it fuzzy that night?

1072
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 6: No, there was no doubt in my mind with what

1073
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 6: Murray had told me. I knew he would do the

1074
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 6: right thing. It was up to Murray to portray that information,

1075
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:14,240
Speaker 6: not myself because I didn't see anything.

1076
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 1: John's lawyer asked deb Hall whether she knew that members

1077
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:23,280
Speaker 1: of the public have obligations to provide information.

1078
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 4: If they believe it is actually sound.

1079
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 1: I understand, yes, And Craig Leggot added information that really

1080
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 1: warrants being passed on.

1081
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:35,040
Speaker 6: Yes, I understand that.

1082
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 1: He suggested to Deb that part of the reason she

1083
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 1: didn't go to the police earlier to pass it on.

1084
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:45,520
Speaker 1: Part of The reason why Deb, as Craig Leggitt put it,

1085
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 1: had withheld the information from police, was because deb herself

1086
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:54,400
Speaker 1: didn't regard the information from Murray as solid.

1087
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 6: I wasn't withholding information. I knew Murray would disclose what

1088
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 6: he knew. In the initial stages of the investigation, the

1089
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:05,440
Speaker 6: detectives were just treating it as a missing person. We

1090
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:09,480
Speaker 6: just assumed after a period of time, well, she'll always

1091
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 6: be a missing person. And therefore we didn't find it

1092
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:14,840
Speaker 6: relevant to go in there every two months and say

1093
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 6: this is what else we know, because nothing, no feedback

1094
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:21,480
Speaker 6: was coming to us in any way from the detectives

1095
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:23,400
Speaker 6: or the police station in that way.

1096
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:26,919
Speaker 3: You know that John Winfield's father lived for a number

1097
00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:28,040
Speaker 3: of years at NUSA, don't you.

1098
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 6: Yes, I believe he did.

1099
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 2: Yes.

1100
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 3: Can you remember that John would occasionally leave early and

1101
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:36,400
Speaker 3: visit his father and would drive to NUSA.

1102
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 6: I vaguely remember John going and visiting his father.

1103
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 3: Sure, yes, And can you remember that on those occasions

1104
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:48,480
Speaker 3: we he'd go to visit his father. He would usually

1105
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 3: leave in the middle of the night, and he would

1106
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 3: roll the car out of the driveway with the lights

1107
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:54,840
Speaker 3: off and the engine not running, so as not to

1108
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 3: disturb you guys in the bedroom immediately next to the driveway.

1109
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:01,400
Speaker 6: Yes, but I think sometimes he may have even started

1110
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 6: the car before he drove down the driveway.

1111
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:07,960
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett suggested that if John was leaving the house

1112
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:11,040
Speaker 1: at three or four in the morning, there were good

1113
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:14,080
Speaker 1: reasons not to start the car engine and turn on

1114
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:17,880
Speaker 1: the car lights, with Deb's bedroom being right next door

1115
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:23,320
Speaker 1: to John's driveway. Possibly yes, and that's because, as the

1116
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:26,240
Speaker 1: lawyer added, Deb would have been in bed only a

1117
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 1: matter of meters away from the car engine as it

1118
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 1: was leaving the driveway.

1119
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 3: What's been your observation of Murray's memory over the years.

1120
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:38,680
Speaker 6: He's got an excellent memory. He's better than me, way

1121
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:39,320
Speaker 6: better than me.

1122
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:42,200
Speaker 3: And in terms of Murray's perception, his eyesight and his

1123
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 3: hearing in nineteen ninety three, how was that excellent? I'm

1124
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:48,240
Speaker 3: not doing too well here.

1125
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:50,960
Speaker 6: I'm sorry. I'm only telling the truth.

1126
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:55,880
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett's job with Deb Hall was done. Matt Fordham

1127
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 1: was brief in his re examination of Bromwin's good friend.

1128
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:03,280
Speaker 1: He wanted to know whether, in the years they were neighbors,

1129
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 1: did Deb ever see Bronwyn with any injuries.

1130
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 6: No, I can't say that I ever saw her with

1131
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:11,080
Speaker 6: any injuries.

1132
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 2: No.

1133
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as

1134
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 1: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information

1135
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me

1136
01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:45,480
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.

1137
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:47,080
Speaker 4: You can read.

1138
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:50,440
Speaker 1: More about this case and see a range of photographs

1139
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 1: and other artwork at the website Bronwyn podcast dot com.

1140
01:01:56,000 --> 01:02:01,120
Speaker 1: Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first. The production

1141
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:06,120
Speaker 1: and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey, Kristin Amiet,

1142
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:12,400
Speaker 1: Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns, Liam Mendez,

1143
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 1: Sean Callen and Matthew Condon and David Murray, with assistance

1144
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:21,000
Speaker 1: from Isaac Iron's. Audio production for this podcast series is

1145
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:25,720
Speaker 1: by Wasabi Audio and original theme music by Slade Gibson.

1146
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:29,440
Speaker 1: We have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation of

1147
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:33,600
Speaker 1: Bromwin Winfield. We can only do this kind of journalism

1148
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 1: with the support of our subscribers and our major sponsors

1149
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 1: like Harvey Norman.

1150
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 4: For all of our exclusive stories.

1151
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:45,960
Speaker 1: Videos, maps, timelines and documents about this podcast and other

1152
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:50,360
Speaker 1: podcasts including The Teacher's Pet, The Teachers Trial, The Teacher's Accuser,

1153
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:54,840
Speaker 1: Shandy's Story, Shandy's Legacy, and The Night Driver. Go to

1154
01:02:55,080 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: the Australian dot com dot au and subscribe.