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Speaker 1: Appoche production.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shann. I'm your host,

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Speaker 2: Adam shand my guest today. When he was sixteen, won

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Speaker 2: a national literary contest, he was interviewed by the local

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Speaker 2: paper about his ambitions, to which the young Corey Allen replied,

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Speaker 2: I'd like to write books, telling that I'll be a journalist.

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Speaker 2: Nearly forty years later, Corey is in a position to

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Speaker 2: fulfill that ambition after a thirty eight year sidetrack into

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Speaker 2: the Queensland Police Service. And Corey was no ordinary police officer.

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Speaker 2: In many ways, he didn't fit in and fought against

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Speaker 2: the prevailing norms. I first met him about fifteen years

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Speaker 2: ago when I attended a homeless summit in Brisbane. Queensland

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Speaker 2: Police facing mounting criticism over treatment of homeless people in

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Speaker 2: Brisbane CBD. At a time when Queensland Police spent more

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Speaker 2: time arresting homeless people for not moving on, Corey sought

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Speaker 2: a different path through empathy. Brisbane City Police to trial

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Speaker 2: new engagement strategy aimed at reducing repeat arrests. As the

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Speaker 2: uniform boss of Australia's largest police station, Brisbane City, he

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Speaker 2: set up to understand the roots of homelessness and to

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Speaker 2: connect vulnerable people with services to get them off the street.

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Speaker 2: Police partner with outreach teams in new push to link

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Speaker 2: rough sleepers with housing support. He encouraged his officers to

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Speaker 2: get to know the street people, not just when things

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Speaker 2: went wrong, but before. What he gleaned from this experience

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Speaker 2: changed the course of his career and that of many

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Speaker 2: other police not to mention the lives of many vulnerable people.

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Speaker 3: Crime statistics fall in Brisbane CBD following shift in policing approach.

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Speaker 3: One senior Queensland officer says empathy may be the most

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Speaker 3: powerful crime fighting tool.

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Speaker 2: Chief Inspector Corey Allen has recently retired from his last

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Speaker 2: post as the Manager of Field Training at the Queensland

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Speaker 2: Police Academy, providing development and education to more than five

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Speaker 2: hundred thirst year constables and twenty eight hundred in service constables.

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Speaker 2: And it's my pleasure to welcome Corey to the Real

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Speaker 2: Crime Studio.

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Speaker 4: Correct, good morning.

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Speaker 5: Where'd you dig that old article up about my first

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Speaker 5: adventure into the literary Well, that's interesting.

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Speaker 2: You forget that You've told me a lot over the years.

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Speaker 2: We've spoken a lot, and you're one of the people

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Speaker 2: that I follow in my career because you want people

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Speaker 2: who are going against the norm, whether they're crooks or police,

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Speaker 2: the ability to change their lives and those around them,

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Speaker 2: and you typify that spirit. You're almost an accidental police officer.

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Speaker 2: How did it happen?

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Speaker 5: Well, it's not something that I planned on, and you know,

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Speaker 5: I think about what costs and police were like in

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Speaker 5: the eighties and Queensland. Like, my experience growing up with

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Speaker 5: cops was that you walked on the other side of

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Speaker 5: the road because you get a smack in the head

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Speaker 5: if you look sideways Adam in Queensland. So I'd been

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Speaker 5: an unsuccessful officer in the army and was quite embarrassed

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Speaker 5: that I tossed away my career in the army to

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Speaker 5: follow love as much as love can be loved when

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Speaker 5: you're eighteen or nineteen. And when that didn't work out,

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Speaker 5: I ended up sleeping in a park and sleeping on

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Speaker 5: a couch and sleeping at friends places.

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Speaker 4: Some of my friends had joined the cops from school

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Speaker 4: and they said, no, it's not as bad as you think.

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Speaker 4: It's great.

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Speaker 5: So I applied to join. Oddly past all the tests,

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Speaker 5: so I was a smart cookie. But when they measured me.

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Speaker 5: I was a centimeter too short the end of the day,

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Speaker 5: so I had to come back a couple of weeks

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Speaker 5: later after stretching myself and working out that when you

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Speaker 5: get measured in the afternoon, you're probably a little bit

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Speaker 5: shorter than the morning because your spine compressores. So my

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Speaker 5: doctor said, if you get measured first thing in the morning,

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Speaker 5: there's a good chance you'll get that one centimeter.

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Speaker 4: So I stretched myself.

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Speaker 5: I hung upside down in those bloody inversion boots, and

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Speaker 5: one of my mates took great to light spinning around

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Speaker 5: on the clothesline at the back of his place.

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Speaker 4: One morning, I laid down the back of his car.

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Speaker 5: We drove into police headquarters, so I didn't decompress on

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Speaker 5: the way in. And this really nice I wish I

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Speaker 5: knew she was. This really nice police women said, come

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Speaker 5: on in, little fellow, we'll give you another go.

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Speaker 4: You only had one set of meat. I explained that theory.

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Speaker 5: I didn't tell her I had three pairs of socks

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Speaker 5: on because I knew they didn't take your socks off.

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Speaker 4: And I made the height that day and that day only.

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Speaker 5: So it become this corny analogy that I've had to

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Speaker 5: stretch myself for the last thirty nine years, and the

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Speaker 5: cops just to do the job. But yeah, I definitely

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Speaker 5: was an accidental cop, and that was clear when I

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Speaker 5: first joined because I thought, well, I'm a bit different

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Speaker 5: from some of these blokes and women, but there are

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Speaker 5: a few people like me. We formed little groups, and

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Speaker 5: we formed our little tribe, and we ended up being

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Speaker 5: a prevailing force in the police in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 2: But why did you divert from your original desire to

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Speaker 2: become a writer.

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Speaker 5: Well, I wrote some stuff, and I got in the

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Speaker 5: Courier mar and I wrote some stuff and at won prize.

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Speaker 4: But it was more like that stuff. For me.

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Speaker 5: It was coping when I was going through a shitty

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Speaker 5: life at home when I was a kid, and I

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Speaker 5: had a fantastic English teacher who was just a great

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Speaker 5: role model and kept giving me interesting things to read,

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Speaker 5: interesting things.

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Speaker 4: To write, and he knew I was having a shit

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Speaker 4: time at home, so that was fantastic.

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Speaker 5: But I wasn't successful when I put in for the

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Speaker 5: cadetship in the Courier Male because they thought I was

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Speaker 5: fifteen at the time. They asked me to come in

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Speaker 5: for an interview because i'd published something. Then they realized

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Speaker 5: I was just a kid and I hadn't actually done

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Speaker 5: any studies. So my very first job I worked as

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Speaker 5: the offside to do the press secretary for the Minister

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Speaker 5: for Transport in Queensland, and he was an exceedingly lazy

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Speaker 5: bloke who would give me all his work to do,

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Speaker 5: so I ended up writing speeches for Yuckie Peterson. I

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Speaker 5: wrote speeches for the Minister, I edited the Railway Journal,

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Speaker 5: did all these little jobs that no one else wanted

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Speaker 5: to do while they were boosing it up and having

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Speaker 5: a good time. But my dad had been in the Army,

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Speaker 5: I'd been in cadets. I applied to join the Air

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Speaker 5: Force in the Army at the same time. We should

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Speaker 5: have taken the Air Force job. But I suppose you

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Speaker 5: always want to live up to what your dad wants.

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Speaker 5: But writing has stayed with me ever since. I've always

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Speaker 5: written in my spare time, written effectively to try and

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Speaker 5: tell a good story.

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Speaker 4: And still there, still there, and I'm not done yet.

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Speaker 2: Well, when the crime drama featuring the cop Kyl Matthews

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Speaker 2: turns up, I'll know that you've gone back to your

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Speaker 2: first love.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm still working on that. It's getting better and better,

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Speaker 5: and for different reasons. I really found it out. I

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Speaker 5: started writing that about nineteen ninety four to tell all

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Speaker 5: these stories I thought were awesome. And then as I

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Speaker 5: grew up and as I changed as a cop, I

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Speaker 5: look back at those stories and they went actually that awesome,

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Speaker 5: Like you think, that's actually not that great, But I

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Speaker 5: think it's a story that needs to be told in

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Speaker 5: the way I'm trying to tell it. Because people sort

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Speaker 5: of eulogize the police in the eighties particularly, I've read

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Speaker 5: a lot of books lately where they say, God, it

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Speaker 5: was great back then, back in those days, But you

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Speaker 5: know what, they actually weren't by the good days they

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Speaker 5: went good days for a lot of people that had

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Speaker 5: contact with the cops. I didn't find them that great.

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Speaker 5: You know, A lot of cops I worked with were

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Speaker 5: not the nicest people. There were a lot of really

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Speaker 5: great people, a lot of cops there that were just

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Speaker 5: rough and ready and nasty and drinking all the time.

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Speaker 5: And you know, you really had to pick your friends closely.

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Speaker 4: I was lucky.

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Speaker 5: I had some really good mentors, and I found some

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Speaker 5: really good friends early that kept me out of trouble

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Speaker 5: and kept me away from you know, the cops that

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Speaker 5: were more likely to give you a clip across the

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Speaker 5: year than they were to help you out. So it's

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Speaker 5: interesting I showed that to someone else recently and they said,

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Speaker 5: this is an important story to tell because that period

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Speaker 5: of policing in Australia has been sort of glorified for

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Speaker 5: some people, saying how great it was. We used to

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Speaker 5: kick us and take names and that's how cops used

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Speaker 5: to be. But for a lot of people it wasn't

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Speaker 5: like that, you know, for First Nations people, it wasn't

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Speaker 5: like that. You know, for kids on the street, it

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Speaker 5: wasn't like that. For the people that got dealt with

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Speaker 5: them and family, it wasn't like that. You know, we

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Speaker 5: had an inquiry about the whole way policing happened back then.

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Speaker 2: Yes, because your early years and the cops were you

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Speaker 2: were headed towards the tactical side.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I was very drawn to that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, how did that happen? Well, I'd been in the army.

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Speaker 5: I liked all that stuff. I had good skills. I'd

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Speaker 5: always grown up oddly for a person that's quite a

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Speaker 5: pacifist now, I always grew up with weapons and you know,

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Speaker 5: shooting and going out hunting and doing that type of

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Speaker 5: field stuff with cadets in the Army.

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Speaker 4: So I thought it'd be a waste if I didn't

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Speaker 4: do that.

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Speaker 5: So I did selection for this what's called now the

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Speaker 5: CERT Team, the Special Eminency Response.

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Speaker 4: Team, which is another story in itself.

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Speaker 5: Because I did selection, I'd only been in the job

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Speaker 5: for eighteen months and you don't normally get a go,

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Speaker 5: but they gave me a selection. It's a bloody three months,

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Speaker 5: you know, the least equivalent of the SAS course. I

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Speaker 5: suppose SA selection nowhere here is hard. And I got

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Speaker 5: through the whole thing, finished the whole selection, topped some

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Speaker 5: of the exams and got one hundred percent for a

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Speaker 5: lot of the written stuff, to the point where they

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Speaker 5: thought I had been cheating, so they made me do

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Speaker 5: the exams again.

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Speaker 4: But I just loved it. I was made for that stuff.

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Speaker 5: And then just before graduation, we were walking over to

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Speaker 5: get our photo take and then one of the instructors said, oh,

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Speaker 5: you're not graduating. I said, what do you mean. He goes, oh,

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Speaker 5: you just kind of didn't fit in. You know, you're

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Speaker 5: not the same personality as some of these guys. But

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Speaker 5: you can come back next year and do it again.

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Speaker 5: I sucked for a while. To be honest, they probably

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Speaker 5: weren't right.

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Speaker 4: I was very young.

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Speaker 5: These guys who went through were older than me, so

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Speaker 5: I had to come back the following year. I did

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Speaker 5: all the entry courses again. I did the whole selection again.

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Speaker 5: Of course I knew everything was coming, and I got

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Speaker 5: through with a group of people who are more my advantage.

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Speaker 5: So I ended up having to do that selection for

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Speaker 5: the Special Weapons Team twice, which is three months of torture.

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Speaker 4: I'll tell you I did that for a little while.

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Speaker 5: Then the Public Safety Response Team kicked off, which was

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Speaker 5: brand new, and I was promoted to sergeant in that

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Speaker 5: very early I'd only been in the job for seven years.

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Speaker 4: I was a very young sergeant and that was probably one.

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Speaker 5: Of the most fun times in my life, kicking off

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Speaker 5: a squad learning how to handle protests in Queensland. Because

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Speaker 5: you think about protests in Queensland, the history of protest

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Speaker 5: in Queensland, finishing off some work writing a protest commander's

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Speaker 5: course at the moment before I finished, finally, and you

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Speaker 5: think about what protest was like back then, when bickipeds

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Speaker 5: and our people on the streets.

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Speaker 4: You weren't allowed to even walk on a street.

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Speaker 5: You know, police were well known for the violent confrontations

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Speaker 5: to where we are now because we facilitate protest.

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Speaker 4: In queens lamb where you keep it safe.

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Speaker 5: We coordinate with people, we negotiate with people, and you

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Speaker 5: won't see the same disturbances you'll see elsewhere protest in

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Speaker 5: Queensland because of that. The way we set it up

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Speaker 5: in the early days, where we thought we're not going

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Speaker 5: to fight everyone that wants to just have their say.

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Speaker 5: What if we just spoke to them and found out

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Speaker 5: who the leaders were and negotiated with them and gave

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Speaker 5: them a spot to set up. I looked after every

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Speaker 5: protest against Pauline Hanson in Queensland. I was particularly tasked

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Speaker 5: with that and we never had any huge conflict that

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Speaker 5: they did elsewhere because we would meet with the head

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Speaker 5: head of the protest groups, if we've got to identify them,

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Speaker 5: negotiate a place for them to be. We would facilitate

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Speaker 5: their protest. We'd give them bottles of water and help

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Speaker 5: them out if we could. They could have their protest

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Speaker 5: even if we didn't agree with it, as long as

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Speaker 5: no one got hurt and as long as there was

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Speaker 5: no over the top behavior. We've had a lot of

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Speaker 5: protests in Queensland that go very peacefully because that time

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Speaker 5: was set in a very early day by some people

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Speaker 5: at the PSrT and at the stations where these protests

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Speaker 5: would manage.

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Speaker 2: Sure, because in that sort of a role, you don't

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Speaker 2: learn or spend much time talking to people.

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Speaker 1: It's about action, it's about public safety.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: In between that the protests, we were deployed to places

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Speaker 5: where they needed extra police presence, and I'll be honest,

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Speaker 5: I don't think I handled that as well as I

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Speaker 5: could have. We kind of went into towns and arrested

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Speaker 5: everybody and then left. And they said, there were just

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Speaker 5: these assholes from Brisbane that came up. And you know,

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Speaker 5: we never brecked anybody, but if you look sideways, you

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Speaker 5: did get arrested. And we never bashed anybody, but if

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Speaker 5: you resisted, you got dealt with pretty firmily. So and

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Speaker 5: I thought I was God's gift to policing they and

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Speaker 5: arrest in the world and letting the court sort it out,

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Speaker 5: until I realized that were probably over policing and acting

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Speaker 5: too quickly. And it happened when I got quite a

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Speaker 5: lot of complaints about how I was behaving in one year,

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Speaker 5: and they profiled me.

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Speaker 4: Ethical standards profiled me.

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Speaker 5: And I looked at all my complaints that I was

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Speaker 5: quite indignant, and I thought, jeez, I'm procedurally very correct.

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Speaker 4: You know, I always follow the law.

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Speaker 5: I just don't tolerate giving any leeway and I don't

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Speaker 5: take any shit. And I arrested everybody we possibly could

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Speaker 5: because I thought that was our job. So when I

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Speaker 5: started to record everything I did on a little micro cassette,

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Speaker 5: I realized I was probably part of the problem because.

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Speaker 4: I actually wasn't listening to anybody.

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Speaker 5: I was pretty much trying to get the elements of

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Speaker 5: an offense out of everybody you spoke to. And then

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Speaker 5: if we wanted to fight, great, because we were the

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Speaker 5: biggest arm gang in Queensland where we were trained and exercised,

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Speaker 5: and we were the best in Australia and all that stuff.

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Speaker 5: We were excellent at time people up the nuts without

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Speaker 5: doing a long term damage. So if I got a

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Speaker 5: chance to do that, we would. But that bit of

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Speaker 5: an epiphany changed my whole approach to policing, where I thought, geez,

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Speaker 5: what if you actually spoke to people, you tried to

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Speaker 5: sort out what the problem was, and you gave them

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Speaker 5: a bit of time to talk. Maybe I would have

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Speaker 5: an easier life. And I've had an easier life ever since,

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Speaker 5: and I think I'd been more effective ever since because

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Speaker 5: I stopped just trying to hit every nail with the

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Speaker 5: hammer I was carrying and started to talk to people

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Speaker 5: with respect and handle them differently and model different behaviors.

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Speaker 5: But for a long time, we would go into a town,

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Speaker 5: they flew us to Charter's Towers for a B and

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Speaker 5: S bar.

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Speaker 4: Once we arrested seventy five people in one night.

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Speaker 5: We settled some scores for the local police that pointed

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Speaker 5: out particular people that were like problematic in the town,

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Speaker 5: and when they did the wrong thing.

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Speaker 4: We jumped on them.

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Speaker 5: I didn't realize that for two years they'd never had

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Speaker 5: that event, and we ruined a good social event that

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Speaker 5: probably did a lot of community good because they were

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Speaker 5: scared these blokes from Britain.

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Speaker 4: Were going to come back and wipe everyone out again.

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Speaker 5: So I felt quite awful that, jeez, the way we

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Speaker 5: policed that ruined a community event that probably did some good.

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Speaker 4: We could have policed it differently, and.

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Speaker 5: Thank goodness, we do police it a lot differently now

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Speaker 5: we organized and facilitate minimize the heart.

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Speaker 2: Right because to that point, what had you been taught

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Speaker 2: about speaking to people? Was that an important part of

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Speaker 2: your training at all?

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Speaker 5: There was no training look back now and think it

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Speaker 5: was interesting to stuff that we were taught in. A

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Speaker 5: lot of roat learning, legislation, a lot of procedure stuff,

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Speaker 5: and they kind of expected you or pick that stuff

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Speaker 5: up from your partner or the people you work with,

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Speaker 5: and you certainly did because if you worked with a

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Speaker 5: good guy, and I did work with a good guy.

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Speaker 5: JV was a great partner, my first guy as a

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Speaker 5: guy with a fantastic sense of humor, which was great,

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Speaker 5: but you kind of modeled the behaviors you're around. So

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Speaker 5: but if you work with someone that was an asshole,

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Speaker 5: there's a good chance you were going to have a

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Speaker 5: little bit of that rub off. There was nothing like,

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Speaker 5: this is the way we want you to speak for

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Speaker 5: these reasons, And we didn't get to that for a

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Speaker 5: very long time, and I'm glad that I had a

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Speaker 5: little bit to do with that. In the cops that

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Speaker 5: we know, we teach police how to talk and why

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Speaker 5: to talk certain ways and why it works and we

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Speaker 5: understand that. You know, showing respect, listening to people, showing

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Speaker 5: a better empathy is not just a nice thing to do,

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Speaker 5: it's bloody essential. Now the cops are dealing with domestic violence,

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Speaker 5: it's complex. Someone's just going to talk to you if

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Speaker 5: you're very procedural and you're not engaging and you're not listening.

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Speaker 5: We're dealing with kids with mental health crisis. We're dealing

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Speaker 5: with complex, protracted problems. The amount of times cups to

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Speaker 5: talk on people down from suicide these days is the

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Speaker 5: community to be astounded if they learn how many times cops,

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Speaker 5: young cops have to talk to someone to stop them

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Speaker 5: from killing themselves now because there's no mental health support

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Speaker 5: for them and we're the only people that come. So

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Speaker 5: that personal journey was quite important when it came time

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Speaker 5: for me to have a bit of say over that

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Speaker 5: stuff down the trap.

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Speaker 2: You did a ted X talk I think in twenty

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Speaker 2: sixteen called crime Fighting with Empathy, and I'll put that

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Speaker 2: in the show notes so people can actually learn more

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Speaker 2: about what you did.

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Speaker 1: But how did you come to that view?

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Speaker 2: I guess it coincided with your posting to the Brisbane

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Speaker 2: City Police Station, which at the time was fairly trouble.

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Speaker 1: What was going on.

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Speaker 5: Well, City police were like many other stations at the

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Speaker 5: time where they didn't really have an understanding of what

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Speaker 5: was happening for people on the street. So you know,

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Speaker 5: they brought with them an expectation that I'll just move

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Speaker 5: this person on, or I'll just deal with them pretty

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Speaker 5: quickly and that'll be it. When we know now you

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Speaker 5: know someone that's got complex, multi layered issues on the street,

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Speaker 5: and there's more and more of.

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Speaker 4: Them than ever before.

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Speaker 5: And I don't respond well to move on directions. We

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Speaker 5: come across like wellies if that's all we've got to offer.

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Speaker 5: And I know our individual cops over the years that

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Speaker 5: have done shown empathy and kindness and respect to people

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Speaker 5: when they're in their worse have been really successful. But

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Speaker 5: at the city at the time, there were a number

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Speaker 5: of complaints rolling on around police using excessive force, police

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Speaker 5: moving homeless people on, police dealing with young people on

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Speaker 5: the street very roughly, and they really had no direction

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Speaker 5: around what else they could do.

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Speaker 4: I just found it was frustrated.

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Speaker 5: They'd been a video with a police arresting a man

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Speaker 5: called Rowe who was sixty three and was washing his

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Speaker 5: hands and the toilets in the mall, and the mall

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Speaker 5: post people wanted to clean the toilets. The cops gave

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Speaker 5: him a move on direction. He was a bit of

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Speaker 5: a struppy ol bloke living on the streets.

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Speaker 4: He'd been to church.

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Speaker 5: He was a guy obviously said what he thought and

382
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Speaker 5: they took exception to it and ended up arresting and

383
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Speaker 5: put him on the ground and were quite violent with

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Speaker 5: him in the way they arrested him. They eventually were

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Speaker 5: charged with the very first civil prosecution of police officer

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Speaker 5: ever in Australia to my knowledge anyway, and one of

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Speaker 5: them was found guilty.

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Speaker 4: And that was the main video in the early days

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Speaker 4: of YouTube.

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Speaker 5: That was a video getting played over and over again

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Speaker 5: that was said to represent what cops are like in

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Speaker 5: the city. When I took over, there were some cops

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Speaker 5: that were probably like that, but there were a lot

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Speaker 5: of cops, so listen, which want to help these people.

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Speaker 5: We've got nothing to offer them other than a night

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Speaker 5: in the watchhouse. We're really worried about these kids, but

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Speaker 5: they frustrate the shit out of us because we're trying

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Speaker 5: to go to jobs and do stuff. But I've got

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Speaker 5: nothing to help these kids. All I can do is

400
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Speaker 5: move them on, and then I end up fighting them.

401
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Speaker 5: And the level of frush tration and the level of

402
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Speaker 5: isolation that good cops felt when they couldn't help people

403
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Speaker 5: when they generally wanted to help them and all they

404
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Speaker 5: had to offer was a night and the watchhouse was palpable.

405
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Speaker 5: So we made friends with the services first.

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Speaker 2: On the other side of the coin, though, to I

407
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Speaker 2: guess play Devil's Advocate, the level of assaults against police

408
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Speaker 2: were very high at the time, so it was a

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Speaker 2: bit of a war zone. So I guess I can't

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Speaker 2: fully criticize the police for being weary in the interactions.

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Speaker 5: Oh, definitely understandable. You know, that was the days of

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Speaker 5: young kids on the street sniffing a lot of paint too.

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Speaker 5: There was a lot of conflict with kids that were affected.

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Speaker 5: There was a lot of conflict with people generally. When

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Speaker 5: we knew that services weren't coming out after ours was

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Speaker 5: on our plate to deal with people after business hours

417
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Speaker 5: because there was no other service coming out to help

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Speaker 5: these people when they are genuinely in crisis, and cops

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Speaker 5: were probably part of the problem as well when it

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Speaker 5: comes to that, because the process of giving someone to

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Speaker 5: move on direct that turns into and obstruct police, that

422
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Speaker 5: then turns into and assault police. You know, it's a

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Speaker 5: chain of awful events when once you start that train going,

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Speaker 5: when you give someone a move on direction and they

425
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Speaker 5: tell you what to do, and then you pinch them

426
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Speaker 5: for some street offense, and then they obstruct you, and

427
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Speaker 5: then they assault you in the course of obstructing you.

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Speaker 5: And the futility of it all was obvious to people

429
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Speaker 5: when they think, I just spent two hours at the watchhouse,

430
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Speaker 5: never got a type of brief. I've got an injury,

431
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Speaker 5: I've got bloody court brief coming up, a full brief.

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Speaker 4: I've got to complain against me.

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Speaker 5: Just it's debilitating when if we could have just found

434
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Speaker 5: that person somewhere to be, or a service could have

435
00:19:42,521 --> 00:19:45,600
Speaker 5: hooked that person up, that whole chain of events could

436
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Speaker 5: have been different, and that time could have been spent

437
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Speaker 5: actually doing more valuable police work.

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Speaker 2: Because I imagine these young constables on the beat are

439
00:19:54,721 --> 00:19:57,840
Speaker 2: going out girded for action. It's a stressful job at

440
00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:59,920
Speaker 2: the best of times, and if I think they're going

441
00:20:00,001 --> 00:20:03,080
Speaker 2: to be bashed by members of the public, they're going

442
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,720
Speaker 2: to take a proactive approach to that confrontation.

443
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:11,561
Speaker 5: Sure, sure, And at that time there was no instruction

444
00:20:11,801 --> 00:20:15,161
Speaker 5: on communication as an operational skill, so there's a lot

445
00:20:15,201 --> 00:20:17,801
Speaker 5: about how to use your hands on skills. There was

446
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,721
Speaker 5: a lot about this thing called tactical communication, which was

447
00:20:20,761 --> 00:20:24,321
Speaker 5: pretty much a couple of verbal Judo type tricks you

448
00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:26,720
Speaker 5: could use to people and then you can arrest them

449
00:20:26,721 --> 00:20:29,521
Speaker 5: anyway if they didn't comply. We built on that later

450
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,600
Speaker 5: on when I was the chief operational Skills instructor, and

451
00:20:32,721 --> 00:20:36,681
Speaker 5: we integrated the same skills that police negotiators get because

452
00:20:36,721 --> 00:20:39,480
Speaker 5: we saw that negotiators get a really good outcome. If

453
00:20:39,521 --> 00:20:42,000
Speaker 5: we could adopt a version of that for frontline police

454
00:20:42,041 --> 00:20:44,360
Speaker 5: to get them to think, well, jeez, if I slide

455
00:20:44,441 --> 00:20:47,961
Speaker 5: things down, if I created space and distance, if I

456
00:20:48,521 --> 00:20:50,321
Speaker 5: changed the tone of my voice, if I asked a

457
00:20:50,441 --> 00:20:52,961
Speaker 5: question instead of giving a loud verbal instruction over and

458
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 5: over again, maybe there would be less conflict.

459
00:20:55,921 --> 00:20:58,041
Speaker 4: And we know that it works really, really well when

460
00:20:58,080 --> 00:20:58,841
Speaker 4: cops are good at.

461
00:20:58,801 --> 00:21:00,441
Speaker 5: That, even when they've got a gun in the hand,

462
00:21:00,561 --> 00:21:02,641
Speaker 5: even when they've got a taser in the hand.

463
00:21:02,681 --> 00:21:04,640
Speaker 4: If they can say, mate, listen, what's going on now?

464
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,201
Speaker 5: I must hurt you instead of screaming our verbal commands

465
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,760
Speaker 5: when it's safe to do so, because it's not always.

466
00:21:10,120 --> 00:21:11,761
Speaker 5: But at that stage, there was no training in that

467
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,160
Speaker 5: of skills. Training was about I see a problem, I

468
00:21:15,241 --> 00:21:17,080
Speaker 5: solve it with force. I see a problem, I solve

469
00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 5: it with a technique. None of the techniques were I

470
00:21:19,921 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 5: see a problem, I'm going to talk this person until

471
00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:23,801
Speaker 5: there is bleed and then they're going to give up.

472
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,680
Speaker 5: There was none of those scenarios. There was no practicing that,

473
00:21:27,201 --> 00:21:28,881
Speaker 5: so that was so obvious to be when I took

474
00:21:28,961 --> 00:21:31,241
Speaker 5: that job. I asked the instructors, I said, what's the

475
00:21:31,281 --> 00:21:33,880
Speaker 5: most important skill cops have got? I said, well, what

476
00:21:33,921 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 5: do you mean? I said, we are the instructors. You know,

477
00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:38,801
Speaker 5: it's eighty of you. You teach recruits, you teach in service,

478
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,321
Speaker 5: you write curriculum every year, people have to do your content.

479
00:21:41,761 --> 00:21:43,001
Speaker 4: What's the most important skill?

480
00:21:43,041 --> 00:21:46,721
Speaker 5: Because you spend eighty hours teaching recruits how to shoot,

481
00:21:46,801 --> 00:21:48,880
Speaker 5: twenty hours how to use the tasers and so on.

482
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,680
Speaker 5: One of them said, oh, obviously is communication. They kind

483
00:21:51,721 --> 00:21:53,321
Speaker 5: of pick that up when they get out there. I said,

484
00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:55,640
Speaker 5: they're not anymore. We're going to teach them communication as

485
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,481
Speaker 5: an operational skill, because cops that can talk to people

486
00:21:58,521 --> 00:21:59,001
Speaker 5: the right way.

487
00:21:59,041 --> 00:22:00,001
Speaker 4: They use less force.

488
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 5: Cops that can de escalate people the right way, use

489
00:22:03,681 --> 00:22:06,481
Speaker 5: some empathy and respect and creating a bit of time

490
00:22:06,561 --> 00:22:10,281
Speaker 5: and space. Using those verbal techniques, they actually are safer

491
00:22:10,801 --> 00:22:13,200
Speaker 5: and they are healthier because there's a lot of wholesomeness

492
00:22:13,281 --> 00:22:15,200
Speaker 5: to think, well, I could have hurt that person, or

493
00:22:15,241 --> 00:22:17,880
Speaker 5: I could have used the technique or the tool or

494
00:22:17,921 --> 00:22:20,360
Speaker 5: the weapon then, but I didn't because I actually spoke

495
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,721
Speaker 5: to that person the right way when I could, you know,

496
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,401
Speaker 5: and there's plenty of times when you can't, But when

497
00:22:25,441 --> 00:22:28,161
Speaker 5: you can create that time and space by slowing things

498
00:22:28,201 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 5: down with your tone, asking a question instead of giving

499
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,561
Speaker 5: a verbal command when it's safe to do so, it's

500
00:22:33,561 --> 00:22:36,681
Speaker 5: a pretty bloody, remarkable feeling to think, jeez, I could

501
00:22:36,721 --> 00:22:38,640
Speaker 5: have hurt that person, I could have pulled the trigger,

502
00:22:38,721 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 5: but I ended up saving their life. And that happens

503
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 5: one hundred times a month in Queensland. Cops pull their

504
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,721
Speaker 5: fire arm one hundred times a month and don't shoot

505
00:22:46,761 --> 00:22:47,641
Speaker 5: it right.

506
00:22:47,961 --> 00:22:50,680
Speaker 2: I like to say that sincerity is the hardest thing

507
00:22:50,761 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 2: to fake. Empathy is the easiest, because you just got

508
00:22:53,360 --> 00:22:56,281
Speaker 2: to listen, and I think you did learn to listen

509
00:22:56,441 --> 00:22:59,241
Speaker 2: you'd also work with three prostitutes as well, and you

510
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,561
Speaker 2: understood their lives, what was happening in their lives, what

511
00:23:02,681 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 2: was motivating them, the drug situations that they were in,

512
00:23:06,241 --> 00:23:06,880
Speaker 2: and so forth.

513
00:23:07,561 --> 00:23:09,881
Speaker 1: How much did that prepare you for the homeless situation.

514
00:23:10,761 --> 00:23:13,241
Speaker 5: Well, I didn't realize it at the time. I just

515
00:23:13,321 --> 00:23:16,121
Speaker 5: thought we were stupid to arrest these people who were

516
00:23:16,201 --> 00:23:18,241
Speaker 5: going to court. They get a three hundred dollar fine

517
00:23:18,721 --> 00:23:20,121
Speaker 5: and then they'd have to go out and do three

518
00:23:20,201 --> 00:23:22,960
Speaker 5: tricks or three jobs, three other horrible things on the street,

519
00:23:23,281 --> 00:23:25,521
Speaker 5: because it just meant you put them backwards three hundred bucks.

520
00:23:25,521 --> 00:23:26,761
Speaker 4: They actually didn't get any help.

521
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,360
Speaker 5: And I always remember Pension, the first street worker, and

522
00:23:30,481 --> 00:23:32,241
Speaker 5: I said to the guy that was handing over the

523
00:23:32,281 --> 00:23:33,801
Speaker 5: squad to me, and I said, what was the point

524
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:34,680
Speaker 5: of that, because what do you mean?

525
00:23:34,721 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 4: I said, Well, she's just going to get a fine.

526
00:23:37,201 --> 00:23:38,961
Speaker 4: She's not going to get any help. I thought.

527
00:23:39,001 --> 00:23:41,721
Speaker 5: I thought she'd get some help and referral. And he goes, oh, no,

528
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 5: it just she'll be out tomorrow. She'll get a fine.

529
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,721
Speaker 5: And I thought that's just the definition of stupidity and

530
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 5: making their life worse. So when the squad was mine

531
00:23:51,921 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 5: and he had left. It was only five of us.

532
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 5: I got it everyone around. I said, we're not going

533
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,241
Speaker 5: to arrest these people anymore. We're going to actually divert

534
00:23:58,321 --> 00:24:00,241
Speaker 5: them if we can. So we're going to focus on

535
00:24:00,321 --> 00:24:03,001
Speaker 5: people dealing drugs and doing harm, because they were people

536
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,041
Speaker 5: that were raping and murdering. Two women got murdered down

537
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,281
Speaker 5: there around that time, And when you actually listened to

538
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,640
Speaker 5: the stories of those women, there was no way you

539
00:24:11,721 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 5: wanted to pick on them. There's no way you wanted

540
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,761
Speaker 5: to disparage them or arrest them. You know, they were

541
00:24:17,281 --> 00:24:20,721
Speaker 5: mostly heroin addicts, spending one thousand dollars a day on heroin.

542
00:24:20,801 --> 00:24:23,561
Speaker 5: They were mostly putting themselves in very vulnerable situations to

543
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,160
Speaker 5: get that money. And I really just thought when we

544
00:24:27,241 --> 00:24:29,921
Speaker 5: knew their stories and I did videos of their stories,

545
00:24:30,001 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 5: I recorded their stories to show the other cops that

546
00:24:32,201 --> 00:24:34,161
Speaker 5: started to work with us, to say, you know, these

547
00:24:34,201 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 5: are the people we're trying to help. They're vulnerable, mostly women,

548
00:24:37,281 --> 00:24:39,360
Speaker 5: some trans We're going to move them on when we

549
00:24:39,481 --> 00:24:41,041
Speaker 5: need to work down there, and.

550
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,441
Speaker 4: That built up a remarkable level of trust.

551
00:24:43,481 --> 00:24:45,400
Speaker 5: They actually ended up telling us a lot about what

552
00:24:45,561 --> 00:24:47,721
Speaker 5: was happening on the street, because imagine the intel and

553
00:24:47,801 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 5: the drum that they had. You know, they told us

554
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,961
Speaker 5: where bad crooks were, They told us where bodies were buried.

555
00:24:53,001 --> 00:24:55,841
Speaker 5: They told us stuff. Even recently, and I can't tell

556
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,281
Speaker 5: you the full details. Someone who worked on the street

557
00:24:58,561 --> 00:25:00,801
Speaker 5: at that time still had my mobile number in about

558
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,001
Speaker 5: twelve months. She rang me up and I still have

559
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,160
Speaker 5: the same phone number. Much of my wife's discussed, but

560
00:25:05,561 --> 00:25:07,360
Speaker 5: she rang me up and she told me some stuff

561
00:25:07,441 --> 00:25:10,360
Speaker 5: that's probably going to solve a serious double homicide in

562
00:25:10,441 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 5: Queensland because I was the only cop she trusted from

563
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,561
Speaker 5: back in those days. But that whole idea that you

564
00:25:16,721 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 5: show someone that's vulnerable a better respect and a bit

565
00:25:20,041 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 5: of understanding when you're in a position of power is

566
00:25:24,201 --> 00:25:28,201
Speaker 5: pretty universal. Most of the time, most people took the help.

567
00:25:28,481 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 5: Most people accepted the fact that we were able to

568
00:25:32,041 --> 00:25:35,081
Speaker 5: do less harm. And that's when I realized that if

569
00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 5: you could help the people that needed helping, target the

570
00:25:38,441 --> 00:25:41,001
Speaker 5: people that need targeting. And you know, I love locking

571
00:25:41,041 --> 00:25:43,961
Speaker 5: people up. I love putting a person with bad intent

572
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,521
Speaker 5: in their place. And I don't mind still having a

573
00:25:47,561 --> 00:25:48,961
Speaker 5: fight with someone. If we've got to have a fight

574
00:25:49,041 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 5: with someone and you've tried everything else, sometimes that's extremely necessary,

575
00:25:53,001 --> 00:25:55,721
Speaker 5: but you save that for special occasions when it makes

576
00:25:55,761 --> 00:25:58,241
Speaker 5: the most difference. You're not just going to arrest everyone

577
00:25:58,281 --> 00:26:00,281
Speaker 5: because you can because they've committed an offense. If you

578
00:26:00,321 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 5: can do something else, well, we don't have the resources

579
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:05,001
Speaker 5: to lock everyone up. We could or write every ticket

580
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,961
Speaker 5: record that the right conversation can make a difference in

581
00:26:08,201 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 5: a person's life.

582
00:26:10,521 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: It really can.

583
00:26:11,201 --> 00:26:12,961
Speaker 2: And I think when I first met you, it was

584
00:26:13,001 --> 00:26:15,321
Speaker 2: at that summit and there you were in your uniform,

585
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 2: and I heard speaker after speaker criticizing police generally, and

586
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:20,241
Speaker 2: I thought.

587
00:26:22,521 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: National sport.

588
00:26:23,801 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: And you got me curious, and we began talking, and

589
00:26:26,561 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 2: I realized that you had this way of saying, how

590
00:26:29,681 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 2: do we solve the problem at source? How do we

591
00:26:32,721 --> 00:26:35,761
Speaker 2: connect these people services and actually get them off the street.

592
00:26:36,001 --> 00:26:40,721
Speaker 2: And understanding their path to homelessness was a really important

593
00:26:40,761 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 2: aspect of that.

594
00:26:42,241 --> 00:26:42,401
Speaker 4: Yeah.

595
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,801
Speaker 5: Well, I had some great examples where coups that had

596
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,841
Speaker 5: walked past people for years sat down with them.

597
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 4: It was a bullshit thing.

598
00:26:50,001 --> 00:26:53,241
Speaker 5: I created a form that looked like a criminal profile form,

599
00:26:53,481 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 5: but it was a highless profile and I said, oh,

600
00:26:55,761 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 5: we just really need you to get the first years

601
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,360
Speaker 5: and set with these people and fill out this form

602
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 5: because crops like filling out forms. Some people got it

603
00:27:03,441 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 5: and they knew what it was about. Some people said, hey,

604
00:27:05,481 --> 00:27:07,521
Speaker 5: I'll just go out a form because you're the senior sergeant.

605
00:27:07,961 --> 00:27:10,441
Speaker 5: But the form had different questions, had questions about where

606
00:27:10,481 --> 00:27:12,880
Speaker 5: do you keep your belongings in case something happens to you,

607
00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:15,241
Speaker 5: what sort of medical history do you have in case

608
00:27:15,321 --> 00:27:17,281
Speaker 5: you have an issue? Who do we tell a few

609
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,721
Speaker 5: passed away and we want to treat you with dignity?

610
00:27:20,201 --> 00:27:22,041
Speaker 5: What services do you like to talk to? So they

611
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,561
Speaker 5: were quite wholesome questions. And I had this great example

612
00:27:25,561 --> 00:27:27,881
Speaker 5: where a cop sat with a seventy two year old

613
00:27:27,921 --> 00:27:30,001
Speaker 5: Italian lady in the middle of the mall and he

614
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 5: said he'd been walking past her for two years and

615
00:27:32,001 --> 00:27:34,241
Speaker 5: he didn't know that she was a teacher, that she

616
00:27:34,441 --> 00:27:34,761
Speaker 5: was on the.

617
00:27:34,761 --> 00:27:36,801
Speaker 4: Street because she'd had a relationship breakdown.

618
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:38,681
Speaker 5: She came here to marry a man, it didn't work,

619
00:27:39,201 --> 00:27:41,321
Speaker 5: she didn't have a phone, she couldn't feel out the form,

620
00:27:41,360 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 5: so her English language wasn't that good. He felt terribly

621
00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:46,001
Speaker 5: guilty that he'd been walking past her for two years

622
00:27:46,041 --> 00:27:49,041
Speaker 5: and never even sat with her or spoke to her.

623
00:27:49,281 --> 00:27:51,281
Speaker 5: Because she wasn't a problem. She was just an old

624
00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 5: lady with a walker and all the stuff strapped to

625
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,321
Speaker 5: a walker that slept on a bench outside Hungry Jack's.

626
00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:57,521
Speaker 5: And he came into my office and he was a

627
00:27:57,561 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 5: bit upset. He said, Oh, I feel like terrible, He said,

628
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,121
Speaker 5: I've been walking past this poor woman. He said, she's

629
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,801
Speaker 5: got two degrees, she's a teacher, she's lovely. Is you know,

630
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,721
Speaker 5: she's just had this drama in her life and she's

631
00:28:07,761 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 5: sitting there And said, well, what are we going to

632
00:28:09,481 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 5: do about it?

633
00:28:10,441 --> 00:28:11,281
Speaker 4: I didn't know either.

634
00:28:11,801 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 5: So we kept knocking on doors and we ended market

635
00:28:14,201 --> 00:28:16,801
Speaker 5: projects with the people that helped us the most. We've

636
00:28:16,801 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 5: got the Italian Club involved and they gave her a

637
00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:22,561
Speaker 5: bit of cultural support. Within a month, Micro Projects had

638
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 5: a little unit for her. All she wanted was a

639
00:28:24,921 --> 00:28:26,921
Speaker 5: bath in a veggie garden. They actually put a bath

640
00:28:27,001 --> 00:28:29,801
Speaker 5: in the unit for her. And we're a had her

641
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,721
Speaker 5: off the streets now. Not exactly core police work, but

642
00:28:34,441 --> 00:28:36,201
Speaker 5: she's not going to be a victim of crime. She's

643
00:28:36,241 --> 00:28:39,361
Speaker 5: not going to die prematurely. That place is a bit safer.

644
00:28:40,081 --> 00:28:42,201
Speaker 5: We're not the homeless cops, but we're certainly the cops

645
00:28:42,241 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 5: that can introduce people to the right people to get

646
00:28:44,481 --> 00:28:47,561
Speaker 5: a better outcome, and we can do less harm. So

647
00:28:47,721 --> 00:28:50,321
Speaker 5: those types of wholesome stories that came out of crops

648
00:28:50,441 --> 00:28:53,561
Speaker 5: just getting to know people better using a stupid form

649
00:28:54,081 --> 00:28:56,521
Speaker 5: just repeated themselves over and over again once I opened

650
00:28:56,561 --> 00:28:59,401
Speaker 5: the door to them and sort of unlocked their empathetic

651
00:28:59,481 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 5: side of cops that they didn't realize was so powerful,

652
00:29:03,041 --> 00:29:04,881
Speaker 5: or they didn't realize was expected of them.

653
00:29:05,921 --> 00:29:09,401
Speaker 2: Yeah, and as you say, police will love numbers, what

654
00:29:09,561 --> 00:29:11,561
Speaker 2: did you start to see in the numbers the critical

655
00:29:12,201 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 2: measures of your success.

656
00:29:14,521 --> 00:29:18,281
Speaker 5: I've been warned because he was a particular deputy commissioner

657
00:29:18,281 --> 00:29:21,481
Speaker 5: at the time who was quite vocal about what the

658
00:29:21,521 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 5: hell is he doing? You were not the harmless cops.

659
00:29:25,281 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 5: He was no fan of mine anyway, and he was

660
00:29:27,521 --> 00:29:30,401
Speaker 5: quite critical. So my boy said, just you need to

661
00:29:30,441 --> 00:29:32,921
Speaker 5: cover your ass here because at the next performance review,

662
00:29:32,921 --> 00:29:35,401
Speaker 5: we're going to be looking at how many assaults there's been,

663
00:29:35,921 --> 00:29:38,161
Speaker 5: how much crime there's been. No one's going to care

664
00:29:38,201 --> 00:29:40,801
Speaker 5: how many people we've housed or how many referrals you've made.

665
00:29:41,641 --> 00:29:44,921
Speaker 4: But the odd part was we were wasting thirty percent

666
00:29:44,961 --> 00:29:47,121
Speaker 4: of our time locking these people up and moving them on.

667
00:29:48,041 --> 00:29:50,281
Speaker 4: When I made an introduction to the service and we

668
00:29:50,401 --> 00:29:52,121
Speaker 4: called the street to home team and they come and

669
00:29:52,161 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 4: dealt with old mate instead of us locking them up

670
00:29:54,761 --> 00:29:57,681
Speaker 4: for a public nuisance or giving him grief, we got

671
00:29:57,721 --> 00:30:00,681
Speaker 4: two hours back in our day. When cops thought, oh,

672
00:30:00,761 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 4: that was great, someone came to help me with this

673
00:30:02,561 --> 00:30:05,001
Speaker 4: problem that I can't really help with. I felt terror

674
00:30:05,081 --> 00:30:06,561
Speaker 4: all about locking people up. We're doing this.

675
00:30:06,681 --> 00:30:10,361
Speaker 5: So then they started to apply themselves to the other

676
00:30:10,441 --> 00:30:13,521
Speaker 5: work in better ways. So when they started to look

677
00:30:13,561 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 5: at what the problem was rather than what's happening right

678
00:30:16,321 --> 00:30:18,161
Speaker 5: in front of them, and ask questions that were a

679
00:30:18,241 --> 00:30:20,361
Speaker 5: bit deeper. I saw them doing that for other things,

680
00:30:20,441 --> 00:30:22,121
Speaker 5: like they go to break an inner and instead of

681
00:30:22,201 --> 00:30:25,041
Speaker 5: just taking the report, going to the next one. If

682
00:30:25,081 --> 00:30:27,961
Speaker 5: it was an elderly person in particular, someone vulnerable, I

683
00:30:28,001 --> 00:30:29,881
Speaker 5: still cops saying, oh, listen, I'll come back and check

684
00:30:29,961 --> 00:30:31,401
Speaker 5: on you tomorrow and to make sure you're all right.

685
00:30:31,441 --> 00:30:33,481
Speaker 5: Because they seem to have this understanding that there's a

686
00:30:33,521 --> 00:30:36,641
Speaker 5: person behind the problem, and there's a victim behind the problem,

687
00:30:37,161 --> 00:30:39,161
Speaker 5: and we do have a role in making those people

688
00:30:39,201 --> 00:30:41,481
Speaker 5: feel better about the shitty things that happened in their life.

689
00:30:41,521 --> 00:30:43,801
Speaker 5: Even if we don't always solve them or we don't

690
00:30:43,881 --> 00:30:46,721
Speaker 5: always fix them, we can be the human side of

691
00:30:46,801 --> 00:30:48,521
Speaker 5: making that a little bit better for those people.

692
00:30:48,561 --> 00:30:49,681
Speaker 4: And they've still got a lot of work to do

693
00:30:49,761 --> 00:30:50,281
Speaker 4: in that area.

694
00:30:50,401 --> 00:30:53,841
Speaker 5: But all our crime numbers came down across the board,

695
00:30:54,201 --> 00:30:56,081
Speaker 5: which pissed the buses off because they said, what sort

696
00:30:56,121 --> 00:30:58,601
Speaker 5: of operations are you running? You know you must be

697
00:30:58,681 --> 00:31:01,521
Speaker 5: doing these big crime clear up saw these street sweeps.

698
00:31:01,561 --> 00:31:03,881
Speaker 5: I said, actually, we just talk crops how to speak

699
00:31:03,921 --> 00:31:06,521
Speaker 5: to people properly. We diverted a lot of people that

700
00:31:06,601 --> 00:31:10,241
Speaker 5: really we shouldn't be having in contact with, and we

701
00:31:10,321 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 5: were able to focus on stuff. It was more meaningful

702
00:31:12,521 --> 00:31:15,241
Speaker 5: because we freed up thirty percent of our time. The

703
00:31:15,361 --> 00:31:18,601
Speaker 5: most important number that changed was that the sick leave

704
00:31:18,721 --> 00:31:21,761
Speaker 5: came down, as the cops that didn't want to stay

705
00:31:21,761 --> 00:31:24,121
Speaker 5: at the station because it was a bit soul sapping

706
00:31:24,201 --> 00:31:27,121
Speaker 5: grind dealing with homeless people in street kids and not

707
00:31:27,201 --> 00:31:30,321
Speaker 5: doing any good. The sick leave came down and people

708
00:31:30,401 --> 00:31:32,401
Speaker 5: were fighting to stay at the station. That told me

709
00:31:33,041 --> 00:31:35,041
Speaker 5: there was a purple patch of about four years there

710
00:31:35,081 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 5: where we had all the resources we needed, We had

711
00:31:37,481 --> 00:31:39,881
Speaker 5: all the support we needed from the services. There was

712
00:31:40,001 --> 00:31:42,521
Speaker 5: housing to give people stuff. We said someone got housing,

713
00:31:42,601 --> 00:31:45,721
Speaker 5: they got housing within two days. Sometimes there was just

714
00:31:45,801 --> 00:31:48,321
Speaker 5: a purple patch to show how it actually could work

715
00:31:48,361 --> 00:31:52,201
Speaker 5: with cops arresting less people, helping more people, and targeting

716
00:31:52,241 --> 00:31:53,041
Speaker 5: the right people.

717
00:31:52,841 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 4: The right way. It was just you look back now.

718
00:31:55,001 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 4: I didn't realize how lucky we were.

719
00:31:58,201 --> 00:32:00,401
Speaker 2: Yeah, you often hear this from X cops so used

720
00:32:00,401 --> 00:32:04,321
Speaker 2: to pride themselves on street policing. Today's cops drive around

721
00:32:04,321 --> 00:32:07,561
Speaker 2: on the TVV van, windows up, radio turned full bore.

722
00:32:07,881 --> 00:32:10,001
Speaker 2: They don't even see what's going on outside, and I

723
00:32:10,081 --> 00:32:12,881
Speaker 2: think it creates a distance. And I do hear more

724
00:32:12,921 --> 00:32:15,721
Speaker 2: and more these days, please talk about the blue family

725
00:32:16,161 --> 00:32:18,481
Speaker 2: when really they're part of the community. And I think

726
00:32:18,601 --> 00:32:21,881
Speaker 2: what your programs did was bring them closer to that

727
00:32:21,961 --> 00:32:25,881
Speaker 2: community and maybe show them a whole different way to

728
00:32:25,921 --> 00:32:26,721
Speaker 2: approach policing.

729
00:32:27,361 --> 00:32:29,841
Speaker 5: Oh for sure, when you have that experience, and I

730
00:32:29,961 --> 00:32:32,841
Speaker 5: do think it's like a little epiphany when you sit

731
00:32:32,921 --> 00:32:35,681
Speaker 5: with someone and you hear their story and it touches

732
00:32:35,761 --> 00:32:38,081
Speaker 5: you a little bit. And believe me, I pushed some cranky,

733
00:32:38,641 --> 00:32:40,841
Speaker 5: hard assed cops into doing this work. Whether they liked

734
00:32:40,881 --> 00:32:43,401
Speaker 5: it or not. It wasn't just the cops that got it.

735
00:32:43,481 --> 00:32:46,001
Speaker 5: I pushed the cops who are like, you're actually rough

736
00:32:46,001 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 5: around the edges, you're a bit worried, you've got some miles.

737
00:32:48,481 --> 00:32:48,961
Speaker 4: On the clock.

738
00:32:49,041 --> 00:32:52,401
Speaker 5: You need to have some exposure to dealing with street kids,

739
00:32:52,721 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 5: even though you don't like them. It even affected them

740
00:32:55,521 --> 00:32:58,321
Speaker 5: when they thought, actually, jeez, I listened to that kid

741
00:32:58,601 --> 00:33:00,361
Speaker 5: a bit longer than I normally would. I was with

742
00:33:00,481 --> 00:33:03,161
Speaker 5: a youth worker. I watched how they talked to that kid.

743
00:33:03,921 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 5: It changes people and fundamentally changes the way people approach

744
00:33:08,321 --> 00:33:11,121
Speaker 5: problems when they see that you don't have to be

745
00:33:11,241 --> 00:33:13,641
Speaker 5: processed through and you can be people driven. You could

746
00:33:13,681 --> 00:33:16,281
Speaker 5: just listen to someone a bit longer than you normally

747
00:33:16,321 --> 00:33:20,441
Speaker 5: would and change the tone of the interaction. You might

748
00:33:20,521 --> 00:33:24,401
Speaker 5: not solve the problem, but that person feels a lot

749
00:33:24,481 --> 00:33:26,961
Speaker 5: better and you feel a lot better about it, and

750
00:33:27,361 --> 00:33:29,561
Speaker 5: you're not as affected by the frustration of it all.

751
00:33:29,881 --> 00:33:31,881
Speaker 5: I just feel sorry at the moment, how what's happening

752
00:33:31,921 --> 00:33:35,241
Speaker 5: with our capacity because the cops all over Australia it

753
00:33:35,321 --> 00:33:38,321
Speaker 5: is really struggling just to get to the jobs we have,

754
00:33:38,561 --> 00:33:40,241
Speaker 5: let alone spend the time to spend.

755
00:33:40,681 --> 00:33:42,761
Speaker 4: And I know cops would love to they say my area.

756
00:33:42,921 --> 00:33:44,201
Speaker 4: I'm in a West Control group.

757
00:33:44,241 --> 00:33:46,641
Speaker 5: Now I look after about one hundred and seventy cops

758
00:33:47,041 --> 00:33:49,961
Speaker 5: five hundred square kilometers of Brisbane, and I know my

759
00:33:50,081 --> 00:33:52,081
Speaker 5: cops to say, boss, we would love to be walking

760
00:33:52,121 --> 00:33:54,881
Speaker 5: the beat and doing that stuff. There's three dvs waiting,

761
00:33:55,241 --> 00:33:57,921
Speaker 5: and there's other jobs waiting. They are going from job

762
00:33:58,001 --> 00:34:00,081
Speaker 5: to job. Some of the very busy areas. It's not

763
00:34:00,201 --> 00:34:02,761
Speaker 5: uncommon for logan that area to have one hundred jobs

764
00:34:02,801 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 5: on the books and they just got to work there

765
00:34:05,041 --> 00:34:07,521
Speaker 5: way through the ones that are the most traumatical or

766
00:34:07,561 --> 00:34:10,201
Speaker 5: the most problematic. They don't have the time of the

767
00:34:10,321 --> 00:34:13,721
Speaker 5: capability right now with the exceeding increase in demand we've

768
00:34:13,761 --> 00:34:15,321
Speaker 5: seen to do that health and stuff.

769
00:34:16,081 --> 00:34:18,961
Speaker 2: So given that sort of situation, does that period you

770
00:34:19,041 --> 00:34:23,441
Speaker 2: spent encouraging officers to do one to one advocacy almost?

771
00:34:24,041 --> 00:34:24,281
Speaker 4: Yeah?

772
00:34:24,401 --> 00:34:27,121
Speaker 1: Does it seem quaint now? Is that not possible anymore?

773
00:34:27,241 --> 00:34:30,601
Speaker 5: Or I definitely understand why we can't do it to

774
00:34:30,721 --> 00:34:33,681
Speaker 5: the same level. But I think the answer to most

775
00:34:33,761 --> 00:34:37,601
Speaker 5: of this is to use the intel to target things

776
00:34:37,721 --> 00:34:41,121
Speaker 5: more specifically. So instead of thinking we should always be

777
00:34:41,161 --> 00:34:43,961
Speaker 5: out talking to people doing this beautiful health and police

778
00:34:44,001 --> 00:34:47,361
Speaker 5: work which does work. Let's pick where actually there's a

779
00:34:47,481 --> 00:34:49,761
Speaker 5: very big problem here. That's one of the things we

780
00:34:49,801 --> 00:34:52,521
Speaker 5: should do as well as responding to demand, as well

781
00:34:52,561 --> 00:34:56,801
Speaker 5: as arresting that high profile offenders. It should be part

782
00:34:56,921 --> 00:34:59,601
Speaker 5: of a sweeter skills you use to treat a problem

783
00:34:59,721 --> 00:35:00,761
Speaker 5: in a worthwhile area.

784
00:35:00,761 --> 00:35:01,641
Speaker 4: And I give an example.

785
00:35:01,721 --> 00:35:05,641
Speaker 5: We just did an operation at Trampside shops fifty thousand

786
00:35:05,641 --> 00:35:07,561
Speaker 5: people a day. There's two poor crops on the beat

787
00:35:07,561 --> 00:35:09,921
Speaker 5: that are run off there floating around everywhere. There's a

788
00:35:09,961 --> 00:35:13,121
Speaker 5: lot of retail crime and retail harm. We did a

789
00:35:13,241 --> 00:35:16,641
Speaker 5: month of high engagement hotspots, so we'd use the intel

790
00:35:16,721 --> 00:35:21,161
Speaker 5: to go inside the precinct exactly where the trouble is

791
00:35:21,401 --> 00:35:24,161
Speaker 5: and when the trouble is. And their job was not

792
00:35:24,321 --> 00:35:26,721
Speaker 5: to make arrest, it was to talk to as many

793
00:35:26,801 --> 00:35:28,881
Speaker 5: people at that spot as you could for a two

794
00:35:28,961 --> 00:35:31,921
Speaker 5: hour period on three different times during the week. And

795
00:35:32,001 --> 00:35:34,361
Speaker 5: the feedback was amazing that just having cups there at

796
00:35:34,361 --> 00:35:37,641
Speaker 5: the right time, the right place, doing the right thing

797
00:35:37,721 --> 00:35:40,201
Speaker 5: and the right things, not always arresting people. Are sure

798
00:35:40,241 --> 00:35:44,041
Speaker 5: they arrested a few people, but it's engaging kids walking

799
00:35:44,081 --> 00:35:47,161
Speaker 5: through the businesses during the wandering wars we have with

800
00:35:47,281 --> 00:35:50,281
Speaker 5: Jack's Law, which have been fantastic. They've significantly reduced the

801
00:35:50,321 --> 00:35:52,841
Speaker 5: carriage of knives in that place, that's for sure. You've

802
00:35:52,921 --> 00:35:54,881
Speaker 5: just got to be more specific with it and treat

803
00:35:54,921 --> 00:35:58,881
Speaker 5: it like a valid operational tactic that you can't just say,

804
00:35:58,921 --> 00:36:00,641
Speaker 5: I'm going to lock up all these crooks or I'm

805
00:36:00,641 --> 00:36:03,401
Speaker 5: going to do these high viz patrols. It's a tactic

806
00:36:03,481 --> 00:36:06,721
Speaker 5: as much as communicating the right way is an operational skill.

807
00:36:07,681 --> 00:36:10,401
Speaker 5: Engaging the community in a positive way in the right

808
00:36:10,441 --> 00:36:13,641
Speaker 5: place the right time is an operational tactic that's very valid,

809
00:36:13,881 --> 00:36:16,521
Speaker 5: and we can do it where it's needed. We just

810
00:36:16,561 --> 00:36:18,201
Speaker 5: can't do it all the time to the degree we

811
00:36:18,321 --> 00:36:18,521
Speaker 5: used to.

812
00:36:20,201 --> 00:36:25,081
Speaker 2: Every police force has the drama of recruitment. There's not

813
00:36:25,281 --> 00:36:28,721
Speaker 2: enough people stepping forward. The normal cohort of people that

814
00:36:28,841 --> 00:36:31,321
Speaker 2: joins the police is not doing it anymore. You've also

815
00:36:31,401 --> 00:36:34,361
Speaker 2: got the problem of retention. People are leaving after a

816
00:36:34,481 --> 00:36:37,761
Speaker 2: few years in the force. How do we address those

817
00:36:37,841 --> 00:36:41,921
Speaker 2: issues because I think some police find it traumatic that

818
00:36:42,121 --> 00:36:45,441
Speaker 2: they are the object of a lot of hatred, a

819
00:36:45,521 --> 00:36:48,641
Speaker 2: lot of negative feedback from the community, and they say,

820
00:36:48,681 --> 00:36:49,081
Speaker 2: stuff it.

821
00:36:49,081 --> 00:36:49,561
Speaker 1: Why would I.

822
00:36:49,561 --> 00:36:52,801
Speaker 2: Bother taking up Corey Allen's approach and being empathetic. When

823
00:36:52,801 --> 00:36:55,081
Speaker 2: I'm getting the shit kicked out of me on the streets,

824
00:36:55,361 --> 00:36:57,041
Speaker 2: I'm not getting supported by the bosses.

825
00:36:57,481 --> 00:36:59,001
Speaker 1: What do you say that young.

826
00:36:58,841 --> 00:37:01,201
Speaker 2: People who are thinking about joining the police force, who

827
00:37:01,241 --> 00:37:03,921
Speaker 2: are or even in there now and thinking of getting.

828
00:37:03,721 --> 00:37:05,521
Speaker 4: Out answer for this.

829
00:37:05,681 --> 00:37:07,601
Speaker 5: Because I've got a sixteen year old that wants to

830
00:37:07,681 --> 00:37:09,521
Speaker 5: join the cops because he's like, oh, I look at

831
00:37:09,521 --> 00:37:11,201
Speaker 5: all the awesome.

832
00:37:11,001 --> 00:37:11,681
Speaker 4: Fun you've had.

833
00:37:11,721 --> 00:37:13,601
Speaker 5: And I take him along door events and things and

834
00:37:13,721 --> 00:37:16,081
Speaker 5: community stuff to expose him to it. And I said,

835
00:37:16,121 --> 00:37:18,521
Speaker 5: if you're going to go into the police, you have

836
00:37:18,641 --> 00:37:20,441
Speaker 5: to go in with your eyes wide open about what

837
00:37:20,601 --> 00:37:22,321
Speaker 5: it is right now, because it's different from what it

838
00:37:22,441 --> 00:37:23,241
Speaker 5: was five years ago.

839
00:37:24,001 --> 00:37:25,601
Speaker 4: That was five years to chief instructor.

840
00:37:25,761 --> 00:37:28,241
Speaker 5: When I came back out to a patrol group commanded role,

841
00:37:28,801 --> 00:37:30,321
Speaker 5: I thought, it's all right, I'll just a bit busier

842
00:37:30,321 --> 00:37:33,041
Speaker 5: than it was, but it's completely changed. Like the volume

843
00:37:33,121 --> 00:37:36,561
Speaker 5: of heavy jobs you go to, you know, three dvs

844
00:37:36,641 --> 00:37:40,201
Speaker 5: in a day. Sometimes that's a lot of heavy, emotional,

845
00:37:40,521 --> 00:37:41,521
Speaker 5: deep work you've got to do.

846
00:37:41,761 --> 00:37:43,201
Speaker 4: You carry the weight to that around.

847
00:37:43,601 --> 00:37:45,801
Speaker 5: You have to have your eyes wide open knowing that

848
00:37:45,961 --> 00:37:47,641
Speaker 5: that's going to be a lot of your work in

849
00:37:47,721 --> 00:37:49,681
Speaker 5: general duties first response policing.

850
00:37:50,081 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 4: It's not going to be a lot of the fun

851
00:37:51,561 --> 00:37:52,921
Speaker 4: that it was chasing.

852
00:37:52,681 --> 00:37:56,081
Speaker 5: Things around, and you have to have the ability to

853
00:37:56,641 --> 00:37:59,681
Speaker 5: self care and manage that, especially if you're a young

854
00:37:59,801 --> 00:38:02,881
Speaker 5: person being exposed. So I saw that recent article said

855
00:38:02,921 --> 00:38:04,681
Speaker 5: in Queen's Lane, we're losing a lot of people between

856
00:38:04,681 --> 00:38:07,641
Speaker 5: the one and four years. I think, in all fairness

857
00:38:08,001 --> 00:38:10,801
Speaker 5: recruiting and doing a fantastic job. We've got fourteen hundred

858
00:38:10,801 --> 00:38:14,001
Speaker 5: recruits going through the academy this year, which is more

859
00:38:14,081 --> 00:38:16,721
Speaker 5: than we have done. The trouble is, when you're recruiting

860
00:38:16,721 --> 00:38:18,641
Speaker 5: a lot of people, you dig deep into a pool.

861
00:38:19,201 --> 00:38:21,841
Speaker 5: Normally you would take the top ten percent. Now we've

862
00:38:21,841 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 5: got to take a lot more who will still meet

863
00:38:24,481 --> 00:38:27,881
Speaker 5: the standards, But when they come out into the real world,

864
00:38:28,321 --> 00:38:31,001
Speaker 5: maybe they're not the right people to deal with policing

865
00:38:31,201 --> 00:38:33,801
Speaker 5: as it is now. And maybe there's some people that

866
00:38:34,321 --> 00:38:36,241
Speaker 5: don't want to deal with policing as it is now.

867
00:38:36,761 --> 00:38:38,761
Speaker 5: But I think you've got to be rational about first

868
00:38:38,841 --> 00:38:41,761
Speaker 5: response policing as a shelf life. And I've seen some

869
00:38:41,841 --> 00:38:43,961
Speaker 5: studies and done some studies that people once they get

870
00:38:44,001 --> 00:38:46,761
Speaker 5: to about nine years of being on the road, there's

871
00:38:46,801 --> 00:38:49,561
Speaker 5: a real risk that they're going to be quite upset

872
00:38:49,721 --> 00:38:51,721
Speaker 5: and course and a little bit damaged, and they're not

873
00:38:51,801 --> 00:38:53,241
Speaker 5: going to be their best and they're not going to

874
00:38:53,281 --> 00:38:57,681
Speaker 5: be healthy. So do your turn as first response and

875
00:38:58,201 --> 00:39:01,081
Speaker 5: get out, do something else. Come back to first response

876
00:39:01,321 --> 00:39:03,841
Speaker 5: by all men in a different role. But the days

877
00:39:03,881 --> 00:39:06,841
Speaker 5: of a cop being a first responder for twenty years,

878
00:39:07,161 --> 00:39:09,081
Speaker 5: you're either going to be very damaged or a very

879
00:39:09,121 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 5: special person to be able to do that. These days,

880
00:39:11,641 --> 00:39:13,961
Speaker 5: like when I join, you do one or two dvs

881
00:39:14,001 --> 00:39:16,481
Speaker 5: a week, and that'd be okay. I think I'd do

882
00:39:16,521 --> 00:39:18,841
Speaker 5: a couple of shitty things a week because they're bloody hard.

883
00:39:18,921 --> 00:39:20,561
Speaker 5: Like you've got to get into someone's life. You've got

884
00:39:20,601 --> 00:39:22,241
Speaker 5: to learn what's going on. You've got to try and

885
00:39:22,361 --> 00:39:26,321
Speaker 5: solve and help them. And it doesn't always work. Twice

886
00:39:26,361 --> 00:39:28,961
Speaker 5: a week, that's good. Three times a day when the

887
00:39:29,001 --> 00:39:30,761
Speaker 5: body cams on and you know if you make a

888
00:39:30,881 --> 00:39:33,841
Speaker 5: mistake and if you miss something and someone dies or

889
00:39:33,881 --> 00:39:35,921
Speaker 5: something horrible happens, that you're going to carry the weight

890
00:39:35,961 --> 00:39:38,761
Speaker 5: of that that you're going to carry that shit is

891
00:39:38,801 --> 00:39:41,361
Speaker 5: that DV death that happened in my era? Have I

892
00:39:41,401 --> 00:39:43,521
Speaker 5: ever been to that job, because you know that you're

893
00:39:43,561 --> 00:39:47,361
Speaker 5: going to be deeply scrutinized and you probably would have

894
00:39:47,441 --> 00:39:48,801
Speaker 5: made a mistake at some point.

895
00:39:49,401 --> 00:39:51,881
Speaker 4: Carrying the weight of that these days is called far

896
00:39:51,961 --> 00:39:54,601
Speaker 4: greater than it was before. And dealing with mental health,

897
00:39:54,641 --> 00:39:57,081
Speaker 4: like the coups who talk to people who are suicidal

898
00:39:57,161 --> 00:40:02,321
Speaker 4: and talk to people that are just destroy its increased significantly.

899
00:40:03,201 --> 00:40:05,481
Speaker 2: Because I think I think it's like seventy percent of

900
00:40:05,641 --> 00:40:08,241
Speaker 2: jobs now are DV related and we're hearing about a

901
00:40:08,321 --> 00:40:10,601
Speaker 2: crisis and domestic violence. Both of what we've seen is

902
00:40:11,201 --> 00:40:14,281
Speaker 2: police forces are responding better than they used to. Therefore

903
00:40:14,321 --> 00:40:17,081
Speaker 2: people are making more reports, but it does place a

904
00:40:17,201 --> 00:40:19,881
Speaker 2: massive strain on the resources and the individual officers. They're

905
00:40:19,881 --> 00:40:23,281
Speaker 2: standing there trying to referee problems in a marriage or

906
00:40:23,321 --> 00:40:26,001
Speaker 2: a relationship that people that are much older than them,

907
00:40:26,481 --> 00:40:28,601
Speaker 2: and as you say, if they make a mistake and

908
00:40:28,681 --> 00:40:30,801
Speaker 2: there's a murder, they're going to carry that the rest

909
00:40:30,841 --> 00:40:34,521
Speaker 2: of their career. Is how do you prepare young officers

910
00:40:35,121 --> 00:40:37,681
Speaker 2: for the change in demands that are placed upon them.

911
00:40:38,881 --> 00:40:41,361
Speaker 5: I do think it's about learning how to communicate and

912
00:40:41,401 --> 00:40:44,121
Speaker 5: connect with people in a better way instead of like

913
00:40:44,241 --> 00:40:47,281
Speaker 5: the tactical communication stuff we're used to get that whole

914
00:40:47,361 --> 00:40:50,961
Speaker 5: idea that you can actively listen to someone be empathetic.

915
00:40:51,601 --> 00:40:54,161
Speaker 5: That's the key to getting to know what's happening in

916
00:40:54,241 --> 00:40:57,161
Speaker 5: a domestic violence incident and actually doing a better job

917
00:40:57,961 --> 00:41:01,681
Speaker 5: that listening and actively listening and using.

918
00:41:01,521 --> 00:41:03,881
Speaker 4: Those skills as your core skills.

919
00:41:04,681 --> 00:41:07,041
Speaker 5: You can't go to a DV and be procedurally correct

920
00:41:07,201 --> 00:41:10,161
Speaker 5: and talk to people in a process driven way. You

921
00:41:10,281 --> 00:41:12,841
Speaker 5: really actually have to listen to people and actually have

922
00:41:12,961 --> 00:41:15,361
Speaker 5: to be empathetic if you can have any influence over

923
00:41:15,401 --> 00:41:18,201
Speaker 5: a better outcome. And I do think when cops learn

924
00:41:18,321 --> 00:41:21,121
Speaker 5: those skills, they actually do it with each other as well.

925
00:41:21,681 --> 00:41:24,641
Speaker 5: So the byproduct of cops that are good empathetic cops

926
00:41:24,681 --> 00:41:27,161
Speaker 5: that listen to people and problems is they're normally good

927
00:41:27,201 --> 00:41:29,241
Speaker 5: cops that listen to each other and support each other.

928
00:41:29,721 --> 00:41:33,361
Speaker 5: We're like every other organization. The frontline throws should at

929
00:41:33,401 --> 00:41:37,041
Speaker 5: the hierarchy quite often because they say, I'm not supported above,

930
00:41:37,081 --> 00:41:39,921
Speaker 5: and I'm not supported by these executive But really the

931
00:41:39,961 --> 00:41:42,601
Speaker 5: best support comes from the people next to you and

932
00:41:42,681 --> 00:41:44,881
Speaker 5: the people just around you. And if we could be

933
00:41:45,041 --> 00:41:47,761
Speaker 5: empathetic and listen to each other, we'll probably be a

934
00:41:47,841 --> 00:41:50,561
Speaker 5: bit healthier instead of looking up for people that haven't

935
00:41:50,601 --> 00:41:54,161
Speaker 5: got the time. And sometimes I'll be honest, sometimes some

936
00:41:54,281 --> 00:41:56,201
Speaker 5: bosses don't care as much as they probably say they do.

937
00:41:56,881 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 5: But I know that we can look after each other,

938
00:41:59,841 --> 00:42:02,761
Speaker 5: and we can listen to each other, and the same

939
00:42:02,801 --> 00:42:04,641
Speaker 5: empathy we give to other people, we can give to

940
00:42:04,721 --> 00:42:07,161
Speaker 5: each other, so that when you see someone you're working

941
00:42:07,241 --> 00:42:10,001
Speaker 5: with and they're not traveling very well, you could be

942
00:42:10,041 --> 00:42:12,761
Speaker 5: the person that nudges them into taking some support and

943
00:42:12,921 --> 00:42:15,761
Speaker 5: feeling like someone lestens and feeling like someone understands.

944
00:42:16,481 --> 00:42:18,041
Speaker 4: That's got to be the way forward when it comes

945
00:42:18,041 --> 00:42:20,081
Speaker 4: to police health and well being. That's for sure.

946
00:42:20,721 --> 00:42:23,681
Speaker 1: Good. So you've been in the job since November nineteen

947
00:42:23,681 --> 00:42:24,201
Speaker 1: eighty six.

948
00:42:24,241 --> 00:42:28,121
Speaker 2: I think it's about thirty nine years, sixteen thousand days

949
00:42:28,521 --> 00:42:32,241
Speaker 2: on the front line of policing. Amazing to think about it,

950
00:42:32,281 --> 00:42:34,521
Speaker 2: isn't it. I've got almost the same amount of time

951
00:42:34,561 --> 00:42:36,361
Speaker 2: in journalism, and it frightens me to think.

952
00:42:36,201 --> 00:42:37,561
Speaker 1: All those days that I might have wasted.

953
00:42:37,641 --> 00:42:41,281
Speaker 4: But not as cynical as you should be, now that's true.

954
00:42:41,801 --> 00:42:47,321
Speaker 2: Is it one day that you think tupifies either your

955
00:42:47,361 --> 00:42:50,041
Speaker 2: achievements or what you're left undone.

956
00:42:51,441 --> 00:42:55,201
Speaker 5: No, I think oddly, and because I've had as you

957
00:42:55,281 --> 00:42:57,681
Speaker 5: come to retirement, you so people have asked those types

958
00:42:57,721 --> 00:42:59,441
Speaker 5: of questions and a lot of cops say, oh, it

959
00:42:59,561 --> 00:43:01,881
Speaker 5: was this big job or was this big thing. But

960
00:43:02,041 --> 00:43:06,961
Speaker 5: I think there are one hundred little micro expressions of

961
00:43:07,681 --> 00:43:11,001
Speaker 5: where things worked on their own were nothing significant, but

962
00:43:11,041 --> 00:43:13,401
Speaker 5: when you put them all together, you know, I just

963
00:43:13,481 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 5: get people now when they know I'm retire and coming

964
00:43:15,481 --> 00:43:17,561
Speaker 5: up saying I remember when you did this for me

965
00:43:18,281 --> 00:43:20,041
Speaker 5: when I was having a shit time at work and

966
00:43:20,161 --> 00:43:22,041
Speaker 5: you really helped me. And I'm like, I couldn't remember

967
00:43:22,081 --> 00:43:24,881
Speaker 5: that if you asked me, but the fact that that

968
00:43:25,041 --> 00:43:27,841
Speaker 5: little moment of kindness made a difference in someone's life.

969
00:43:28,241 --> 00:43:29,961
Speaker 5: I had a bloody recruit come up to me when

970
00:43:29,961 --> 00:43:31,281
Speaker 5: I was at the academy and he said, oh, do

971
00:43:31,321 --> 00:43:31,841
Speaker 5: you remember me?

972
00:43:31,961 --> 00:43:33,361
Speaker 4: So I said no.

973
00:43:33,521 --> 00:43:35,441
Speaker 5: Made he goes, oh, I was twelve. He said, I

974
00:43:35,481 --> 00:43:37,321
Speaker 5: was in the city. Said I didn't really like police.

975
00:43:37,361 --> 00:43:39,321
Speaker 5: He said, I was with my mum. He said, you

976
00:43:39,441 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 5: gave me a sticker. I said, I hope you didn't

977
00:43:41,481 --> 00:43:43,121
Speaker 5: join the police too. That gave you a sticker? Made

978
00:43:43,161 --> 00:43:44,441
Speaker 5: he goes no. He So I just thought if that

979
00:43:44,561 --> 00:43:46,681
Speaker 5: cop could take the time out to do that. He said,

980
00:43:46,721 --> 00:43:48,961
Speaker 5: it made me think about what cops really do because

981
00:43:49,561 --> 00:43:51,241
Speaker 5: you could tell. He said, it was just such a

982
00:43:51,361 --> 00:43:54,201
Speaker 5: nice little gesture. There's been a thousand of those little

983
00:43:54,241 --> 00:43:57,881
Speaker 5: micro gestures that make up my career. And when I

984
00:43:57,961 --> 00:44:00,001
Speaker 5: did that teed X talk and I had some cops

985
00:44:00,081 --> 00:44:02,161
Speaker 5: right to me and say, and I've got into a

986
00:44:02,161 --> 00:44:03,961
Speaker 5: little bit of trouble for doing that Tedex talk too,

987
00:44:04,001 --> 00:44:06,201
Speaker 5: because some people like the fact that I do it

988
00:44:06,321 --> 00:44:08,881
Speaker 5: in the hierarchy. But some cops write to me and said,

989
00:44:09,161 --> 00:44:11,121
Speaker 5: thank you for telling that story because I grew up

990
00:44:11,121 --> 00:44:13,321
Speaker 5: in a shitty house with domestic violence, and you know,

991
00:44:13,401 --> 00:44:15,401
Speaker 5: I had some time when I was sleeping on couches

992
00:44:15,481 --> 00:44:17,841
Speaker 5: and you know, I'd never talk about it, but I'm

993
00:44:17,841 --> 00:44:20,001
Speaker 5: glad you did because it made me feel like there's

994
00:44:20,041 --> 00:44:22,281
Speaker 5: another cop like me in the job for those reasons.

995
00:44:22,961 --> 00:44:25,161
Speaker 5: So there's a lot of those little micro Jos's, little

996
00:44:25,241 --> 00:44:28,081
Speaker 5: letters I've got for people that I've listened to podcasts

997
00:44:28,161 --> 00:44:30,401
Speaker 5: and stuff that I've done and gone it's nice to

998
00:44:30,481 --> 00:44:32,641
Speaker 5: know that there's a cop like that in Queensland. And

999
00:44:32,721 --> 00:44:34,521
Speaker 5: there's a lot of cops like me in Queensland. They

1000
00:44:34,561 --> 00:44:36,961
Speaker 5: just don't talk as much as I do, because you

1001
00:44:37,081 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 5: know what it's like in the cops. They start talking

1002
00:44:39,001 --> 00:44:41,841
Speaker 5: about stuff, people throw shit, don't you. But our story

1003
00:44:41,921 --> 00:44:44,681
Speaker 5: worth telling is worth telling, And it's not my story.

1004
00:44:44,881 --> 00:44:47,721
Speaker 5: It's a story of a thousand cops in Queensland, and

1005
00:44:47,841 --> 00:44:50,521
Speaker 5: it's a story of twelve thousand crops in Queensland today

1006
00:44:50,881 --> 00:44:53,161
Speaker 5: who are going to shitty jobs and they're doing their best,

1007
00:44:53,281 --> 00:44:55,401
Speaker 5: and they do a bloody good job most of the time,

1008
00:44:55,921 --> 00:44:57,601
Speaker 5: and they do it with their heart and their sleeve

1009
00:44:57,721 --> 00:44:58,361
Speaker 5: most of the time.

1010
00:44:58,881 --> 00:44:59,521
Speaker 4: And if I'm not.

1011
00:44:59,601 --> 00:45:02,761
Speaker 5: Prepared to talk about it and share it, then what

1012
00:45:02,881 --> 00:45:05,561
Speaker 5: are people here these days? They see some snippets of

1013
00:45:05,561 --> 00:45:08,881
Speaker 5: bodycam footage of us chose some people, which is always exciting.

1014
00:45:09,241 --> 00:45:11,961
Speaker 5: They definitely hear when we get it wrong. Who's going

1015
00:45:12,041 --> 00:45:14,201
Speaker 5: to hear about all the good, wholesome stuff we do

1016
00:45:14,361 --> 00:45:18,161
Speaker 5: every day? And there's thousands of those things happening right

1017
00:45:18,241 --> 00:45:21,241
Speaker 5: now today that nobody will ever hear about. There'll be

1018
00:45:21,241 --> 00:45:23,881
Speaker 5: a copy draws their firearm today that won't shoot someone

1019
00:45:23,921 --> 00:45:24,801
Speaker 5: and I'll save their life.

1020
00:45:24,841 --> 00:45:26,401
Speaker 4: In Queensland. You'll never hear about that.

1021
00:45:27,441 --> 00:45:30,161
Speaker 2: So you're the patron saint of the cops. That don't

1022
00:45:30,241 --> 00:45:34,081
Speaker 2: draw their firearms talk the way through a problem. But

1023
00:45:34,201 --> 00:45:36,561
Speaker 2: I wonder if Corey Elleen is sixteen years of age

1024
00:45:36,601 --> 00:45:38,721
Speaker 2: today and he's got the choice of a career in

1025
00:45:38,801 --> 00:45:42,161
Speaker 2: journalism or literature or the police, you think you'd take

1026
00:45:42,201 --> 00:45:42,841
Speaker 2: the same path.

1027
00:45:44,121 --> 00:45:47,801
Speaker 5: I think I wouldn't be a good journalist if I

1028
00:45:47,881 --> 00:45:50,481
Speaker 5: hadn't gone out and done some stuff. I think the

1029
00:45:50,561 --> 00:45:54,081
Speaker 5: perspective I have now, I'll probably be a better journalist

1030
00:45:54,161 --> 00:45:56,321
Speaker 5: now because of the stuff I've done. And also I

1031
00:45:56,361 --> 00:45:59,201
Speaker 5: think my personality is I don't think I could be

1032
00:45:59,281 --> 00:46:02,481
Speaker 5: on the sidelines watching things. I need to be in

1033
00:46:02,561 --> 00:46:06,641
Speaker 5: the middle of stuff, walking into stuff, writing of certainly

1034
00:46:06,721 --> 00:46:08,321
Speaker 5: not donn a standing away. But he went to worry

1035
00:46:08,321 --> 00:46:10,561
Speaker 5: a couple of times, did me. They all seem to

1036
00:46:10,601 --> 00:46:12,241
Speaker 5: go and do some stuff, And you're always get in

1037
00:46:12,281 --> 00:46:15,281
Speaker 5: the middle of investigations and things because you're part of it.

1038
00:46:15,321 --> 00:46:16,761
Speaker 4: You're not on the sidelines watching it.

1039
00:46:16,841 --> 00:46:19,921
Speaker 5: These days, there's so much more interactive part for good

1040
00:46:20,001 --> 00:46:23,801
Speaker 5: journalism to play in making things better and helping people

1041
00:46:23,881 --> 00:46:26,161
Speaker 5: understand stuff and listening to other people's stories.

1042
00:46:27,161 --> 00:46:31,081
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Corey, fantastic career. You've also, I should add,

1043
00:46:31,561 --> 00:46:35,241
Speaker 2: and you'll be humble about this. You've fostered twenty five

1044
00:46:35,841 --> 00:46:38,641
Speaker 2: children over your career as well as raising a brood

1045
00:46:38,681 --> 00:46:39,121
Speaker 2: of your own.

1046
00:46:39,601 --> 00:46:41,401
Speaker 4: Oh around trace, you've got to send to it.

1047
00:46:41,441 --> 00:46:43,721
Speaker 5: We're going to adopt a child because we've had We're

1048
00:46:43,801 --> 00:46:46,481
Speaker 5: lucky enough to have kids of our own, and we're

1049
00:46:46,521 --> 00:46:48,841
Speaker 5: well off, middle class people, so we can afford it.

1050
00:46:48,921 --> 00:46:51,641
Speaker 5: But we're so hard to bloody adopt a child where

1051
00:46:51,641 --> 00:46:54,481
Speaker 5: we ended up fostering short term and that it was

1052
00:46:54,521 --> 00:46:56,641
Speaker 5: a great lesson too, because you get kids from these

1053
00:46:56,641 --> 00:47:00,921
Speaker 5: different backgrounds and kids on short term care. You know,

1054
00:47:01,041 --> 00:47:03,321
Speaker 5: we had First Nations kids a couple of times for

1055
00:47:03,401 --> 00:47:05,521
Speaker 5: a short while before they could find kin ship care

1056
00:47:05,561 --> 00:47:09,201
Speaker 5: and our kids getting to experience that, you know, what's

1057
00:47:09,241 --> 00:47:12,561
Speaker 5: happened to this child within recent they don't get told

1058
00:47:12,601 --> 00:47:15,041
Speaker 5: what's happened, but they get to learn there's more to

1059
00:47:15,081 --> 00:47:17,241
Speaker 5: the world than just you know, you're complaining about not

1060
00:47:17,321 --> 00:47:20,361
Speaker 5: getting the latest iPhone or going to the next party.

1061
00:47:20,761 --> 00:47:23,361
Speaker 5: We fostered a little girl from Iraq. Her and her

1062
00:47:23,361 --> 00:47:25,881
Speaker 5: father come over here in a boat and her dad

1063
00:47:25,961 --> 00:47:28,801
Speaker 5: had required brain injuries. She stayed at our place for

1064
00:47:28,801 --> 00:47:31,321
Speaker 5: a couple of weeks in between care, and our kids

1065
00:47:31,361 --> 00:47:33,201
Speaker 5: are ringing about not going to a party and my

1066
00:47:33,361 --> 00:47:35,961
Speaker 5: daughter's fone is playing up for something and she was complaining.

1067
00:47:36,401 --> 00:47:38,281
Speaker 5: And this girl sat up and she said, my father

1068
00:47:38,401 --> 00:47:41,121
Speaker 5: tried to sell me to someone when I was eleven,

1069
00:47:41,601 --> 00:47:43,481
Speaker 5: to an old man I was going to get married off.

1070
00:47:43,761 --> 00:47:46,121
Speaker 5: And they kind of changed the conversation. From then she

1071
00:47:46,281 --> 00:47:48,241
Speaker 5: told us her story about how she came here on

1072
00:47:48,321 --> 00:47:51,041
Speaker 5: a boat. Now she didn't even know where Australia was.

1073
00:47:51,201 --> 00:47:53,841
Speaker 5: She wasn't allowed to study or go to school. Just

1074
00:47:53,961 --> 00:47:56,961
Speaker 5: that perspective our kids got by sharing a meal and

1075
00:47:57,081 --> 00:47:59,961
Speaker 5: living with other kids was more growing up than they

1076
00:48:00,001 --> 00:48:00,721
Speaker 5: had got in school.

1077
00:48:00,761 --> 00:48:01,801
Speaker 4: I think it was fantastic.

1078
00:48:02,881 --> 00:48:04,401
Speaker 1: Yeah, another example of empathy.

1079
00:48:05,081 --> 00:48:06,681
Speaker 2: Ry Allen, thank you for your time today and thank

1080
00:48:06,721 --> 00:48:07,921
Speaker 2: you for your service to the community.

1081
00:48:09,041 --> 00:48:09,361
Speaker 4: Awesome.

1082
00:48:09,401 --> 00:48:13,761
Speaker 5: Thank you too for being a good representation of anthical journalism.

1083
00:48:13,841 --> 00:48:16,321
Speaker 5: I appreciate it. I try my best.

1084
00:48:17,841 --> 00:48:21,201
Speaker 1: And that's Corey Ellen. There lost of journalism, a gain

1085
00:48:21,321 --> 00:48:22,121
Speaker 1: to the community.

1086
00:48:22,521 --> 00:48:25,401
Speaker 2: Fantastic career and I hope that that spirit is not

1087
00:48:25,601 --> 00:48:29,001
Speaker 2: lost in Queensland Police and also find its way into

1088
00:48:29,081 --> 00:48:32,841
Speaker 2: other police forces. That the value of empathy, the knowing

1089
00:48:33,321 --> 00:48:36,641
Speaker 2: the extented ones authority and the fact that authority does

1090
00:48:36,801 --> 00:48:40,601
Speaker 2: come from the community, so police always need to bear

1091
00:48:40,641 --> 00:48:42,521
Speaker 2: that in mind that you think they'll have better careers

1092
00:48:43,081 --> 00:48:46,321
Speaker 2: and maybe have better outcomes. If you have any information

1093
00:48:46,361 --> 00:48:48,721
Speaker 2: about a crime, please call crime Stoppers one and out

1094
00:48:48,721 --> 00:48:51,801
Speaker 2: a triple three, triple zero. If you don't trust the cops,

1095
00:48:52,281 --> 00:48:54,361
Speaker 2: you can always send me an email Adam Shanner, writer

1096
00:48:54,481 --> 00:48:55,641
Speaker 2: at gmail dot com.

1097
00:48:56,201 --> 00:48:58,041
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening. This has been Adam shan for

1098
00:48:58,121 --> 00:48:58,601
Speaker 1: real crime