WEBVTT - Tracking lone killers: Dr Nathan Brooks Pt.2 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective see aside of life the average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.119 exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.400 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:49.400 Welcome back to part two of my chat with forensic 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:53.960 psychologists Nathan Brooks. In part one, we talked about Nathan's work, 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:58.000 the difference between serial killers and mass murderers, and the 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:01.440 emerging trend of loan actors who go on killing sprees. 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:05.360 In part two, Nathan talks about the christ Church massacre, 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:07.960 where the actions of one man led to the death 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:11.440 of fifty one people. Nathan breaks down how and why 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:14.039 this crime occurred and how we can try and prevent 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:16.600 these types of killings in the future. It was a 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:20.080 fascinating and informative chat. Have a listened to what Nathan 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:24.120 has to say, Nathan Brooks or doctor Nathan Brooks, I 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:27.320 should say, welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers. 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:28.080 Thanks Gary. 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:31.880 I've got to say I am finding this conversation fascinating 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:35.479 and was working as a homicide detective. I found this 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:39.200 inside the mind of killers or all the type of 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:43.080 things that you're examining absolutely fascinating. I'm sure you're getting 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:48.360 this all the time, but is that people are fascinating? 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:54.040 I think unpacking what makes troubling and sometimes very violent 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:57.720 people tick is it is it's fascinating because most of 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:01.280 us can't understand it. And when we think about psychopaths, 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:03.640 for instance, Yeah, they are the ones that think different 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:06.560 and make different decisions, and we're often caught up in 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:10.600 our own emotions. But for some folks, like psychopathic folks, 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.680 that they're cool and calm under pressure, that they're not 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:16.280 burdened by the anxiety that we have, and that's hard 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:18.320 for everyday people to understand. 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:22.120 Yeah, yeah, I want to talk about the christ Church 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:25.440 massacre which is you know, I'm sure most people know it. 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:28.480 I'll just read out a summary of it, just so 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:30.880 people that haven't been aware of it they are aware 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:34.600 of what happened. So two consecutive mass shootings took place 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:37.160 in christ Church, New Zealand, on the fifteenth of March 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:41.639 twenty nineteen. They were committed during Friday prayer, first at 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:45.520 the Elnora Mosque at Rickiton at one forty pm, and 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:49.200 almost immediately after at Limbwood Islamic Center at one point 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:53.440 fifty two. Altogether, fifty one people were killed and eighty 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:57.480 nine others were injured, including forty by gunfire. The perpetrator 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:01.040 was an Australian man, Brenton Tarrant, then age twenty eight. 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.280 Tarrant was arrested after his vehicles ran by a police 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.120 car as he was driving to a third mosque, nash Burton. 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:10.800 He live streamed the first shooting on Facebook, making the 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:14.440 first successful live stream far right terror attack, and had 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:18.120 published a manifesto online before the attack that just sort 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:22.760 of sets the saying. I think anyone that recalls that 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:27.120 incident knows how horrifying it was. You've looked at it 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:31.320 in depth, what's your take on what caused the lead 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:33.840 up to it and why did it get that dramatic 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:36.320 And we touched on small parts of it in part one. 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:38.720 If we could just deep dive into it now. 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:41.720 Yeah, So before we get into it, my caveat that 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:45.080 I'm obviously with the New Zealand Police and this is 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:48.200 certainly my view on the situation. It's not at all 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:52.360 reflective of theirs. But it is a really complex case. 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:56.280 I think when anyone carries out such a horrific mass 0:03:56.400 --> 0:04:01.600 act of violence, there are many many layers and what 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:05.560 we saw in that incident and that tragic attack was 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:10.160 that several years of build up went into it. It 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:14.360 wasn't something that just happened overnight. We know that Tarrent 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:17.800 moved to New Zealand with the intention of carrying out 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:20.840 a mass casualty attack, and that was his reason for 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:24.000 moving over there. I believe he cited the fact that 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:27.760 it was partly the ability to access the firearms that 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:32.200 was one of the primary factors, and shortly after getting 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:37.080 there he commenced training with firearms and acquiring tactical capabilities. 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:41.760 But to understand him, we probably need to trace things 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:45.800 back to his childhood and he had in many ways, 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:48.960 probably something that hasn't garnered a lot of attention. Quite 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:52.800 a traumatic childhood we focused a lot, particularly, I think 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:55.839 the media courage has been a lot around his ideology. 0:04:56.800 --> 0:04:59.760 But there are a lot of puzzle pieces that were 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:01.840 there early on for him in his early years. 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:03.720 What type of things were they. 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:07.120 So one of the things that we look at for 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:12.800 childhood is whether people experience trauma and the influence that 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:15.960 that can have on them as they develop and grow 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:20.120 into adults. And adverse childhood experiences is often a marker 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:23.640 that we use to look at how bad that trauma 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:26.840 is or how much adversity your child has had in 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:31.120 their upbringing, And a lot of research would say around 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:36.160 four or five adverse experiences can have quite significant impact 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:39.640 on someone as they age and really shape who they become. 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:44.039 And we know Arran had a troubled upbringing. So his 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:47.840 parents separated, which I'll just run through some of it. 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.799 So some of the adverse experiences are parental separation, parental 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:59.360 mental health, criminality, unstable housing, financial issues, drug use. So 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:02.680 the tip things that we that we might expect. Yeah, 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:05.800 and so so Terence's parents obviously split up, so we 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:10.320 had the separation his mother then started dating a new 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:15.320 individual I believe it was an aboriginal fellow, and he 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:20.640 was reportedly violent towards Tarrant and his sister, and that 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:26.040 abuse continued over several years. Then we also had his 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:31.520 father who suffered from mental health difficulties and then also 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:37.039 developed cancer I believe for Mary and ultimately then committed 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:42.000 suicide as well. So there were some quite notable things there. Drama, yeah, 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:47.359 and he also Terrant himself was struggled to fit in socially, 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:50.719 as we which touched on before. He was often bullied. 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:54.880 He was considered to be quite overweight as well, and 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:57.760 then in his late teens he had a big transformation 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:01.799 and became quite fixated and about the gym and lost 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:02.800 quite a lot of weight. 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:05.640 I think it was in your book it was something 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:09.200 like forty or fifty years huge, Yeah. 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:13.320 Quite remarkable. And also during that adolescence we see that 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:17.960 some early racist remarks were coming out in his school years, 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:22.840 which suggests there's certainly, you know, some difficulties with how 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:26.320 we're seeing the world and people and maybe even seeing 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:28.720 that there's certain people that are to blame or that 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:32.000 are causing hardships for him, and that might have been 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:34.560 reflective of what things were like on the home front, 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:38.720 with you know, with the physical abuse that was happening 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:42.480 at home, and from there as he aged. I think 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:45.520 he has spent a period being a personal trainer after 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.360 high school, and then he inherited a large sum of 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:53.239 money once his father passed away, and that basically funded 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:57.240 him to go and travel overseas for quite a few years. 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:04.800 And unfortunately, rather than taking inspiration from the the cultures 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:10.280 and the different people, he became very cynical, and if 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:13.360 we look at the various accounts and things that have 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:17.320 been covered on the topic, his views were shaped in 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:21.600 a very negative manner. It did coincide with while he 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:25.720 was in Europe with some Islamic based attacks occurring, so 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:29.280 in Islamic most terrorist attacks at the time, and that 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:32.920 all sort of seemed to come together along with his 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:38.120 strong reliance on online groups in four chan and eight 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:41.200 chan and some of these other forums where he was 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:45.680 really fueling his beliefs about the world and having those 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:49.040 reciprocad back to him, and the classic sort of echo 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:52.439 chamber effects started to happen from there, where the ideology 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:56.800 really became perpetuated and continued to get reinforced. 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.000 Out the time. I suppose what he's exposing himself too 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:02.359 is only going to people people that share the same ideology, 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:07.720 and that becomes that cycle. Yes, it reinforces his belief Yeah. 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:10.520 And I think the further down that rabbit hole that 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:15.400 you go, the more you find things that support those views. 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:19.439 And you know, we get that the classic distortion aspect 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:24.320 happen where you look for things that are what you want, 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:26.360 you look for things that reinforce your beliefs, and then 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:30.040 you ignore anything that's contradictory. And that's what we find 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:33.880 with a lot of ideological aspects is people cherry pick 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:37.080 what they focus on and they ignore the things that 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:40.480 are contradictory to that, and that of course can very 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:43.320 easily then start to lead to quite extreme beliefs when 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:46.560 you're only looking at a small fragment of an issue. 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:51.120 So the build up would you describe as a perfect 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:55.160 storm in terms of what the build up before he 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:57.360 carried out this horrible act. 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:01.240 Well, there certainly, I think the cycle, logical makeup, the 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:04.120 psychological foundation was a big factor. So he had a 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:07.880 lot of vulnerabilities. There clearly a lot of unresolved anger 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:12.000 that was never addressed, and then we had the Internet 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:17.840 peace on top of that, where he's engaging in various ideological, 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:22.680 extreme right wing views that are being perpetuated and fueled. 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:27.160 He's then quite financially well off as well, which gave 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:32.600 him access and capability factors, and then develops the plan 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:35.720 or the intent to carry out some sort of violence 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:39.880 to avenge or seek justice for the injustice which he's 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:44.000 perceiving in the world. And then starts to begin planning 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:47.439 and moves to New Zealand with the intention of carrying 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:50.160 out a mass casualty attack, And a bit like with 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:54.920 Anders Bravic in Norway, we see the culmination of factors 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:59.040 come together, along with the secrecy and the willingness to 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:04.160 dedicate a couple of years of your life to carrying 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.240 out such a horrific active violence. I mean that itself 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:11.040 is nearly unheard of and so remarkable that someone could 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:14.800 be so dedicated over that obsession to give their life 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:15.040 to that. 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:19.960 Yeah, there were a number of inquiries that flowed on 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:24.840 from the event. Did anything jump out in the part 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:27.520 where it could have been I won't say prevented, because 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:30.680 as I keep saying that it's easy in hindsight, But 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:32.960 is there any indicators or ways that it could have 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:35.840 been diffused? Do you think how could you approach it 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:38.320 if you look back with the benefit of hindsight. Okay, 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:40.120 when he got to this point, there should have been 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:40.800 some intervention. 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:46.160 Yeah, that's again in hindsight. So there was a Royal 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:50.400 commission in New Zealand into Royal Commission of Inquiry into 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:53.840 the attack and it's a nearly nine hundred page document 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:58.560 which reviewed it. Now, some of the interesting findings were 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:03.520 more around systems and processes rather than terror himself, so 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:06.160 it looked at, you know things. So he had a 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:10.000 gunshot wound in the months prior to the attack, and 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:13.320 at the time there were no mandatory reporting practices for 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:16.680 gunshot wounds. So that has since changed so that if 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:19.719 someone presents to hospital with a gunshot wound, that is 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:24.000 then passed on to police and then followed up. Firearm 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:29.439 register was something that wasn't strong and that's been completely 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:33.520 revamped to make access to firearms much more difficult and 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:36.880 mental health checks and interviews and those sorts of processes. 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:41.560 So again another positive step that has been put in place. Yeah, 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:45.360 and of course the access to guns has been reduced 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:49.240 as well, So some of those capability and incident reporting 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:53.640 systems have been improved, been a lot more funding as well. 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:58.000 That's gone into violent extremism, and I think as well 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:02.360 that improved police practic and that's not being critical at 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:06.600 all of the police practices, but unfortunately when we have incidents, 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:09.360 of course that reviews, that leads. 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:12.880 To change and the improvements. Of course, when when it 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:18.080 gets that way not well, I suppose it's the magnitude 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:21.800 of the crime that he created there required that review 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:26.000 lesser type of crimes. But one you and I spoke 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:29.240 off camera about it, and you are, you're over here 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:31.800 and you're going to deliver a lecture on it. Stalking. 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:37.280 Stalking to me is a major concern. What message have 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:39.559 you got or what have you learned about stalking people 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:42.840 that are prepared to stalk? And over here in Australia 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:45.720 and not just New South Wales, across the across the country, 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:49.320 we've got a lot of domestic violence where unfortunately it's 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:53.240 male partners invariably murdering female partners. And you look at 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:56.200 it and I can virtually guarantee they'll be stalking involved 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.680 and not accepting the relationship being over and different things 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:02.520 like that. What's your your assessment of stalking? 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:06.880 Oh, look, it's so it's so troubling. And one of 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:09.960 the challenges we're stalking is that it exists on such 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:16.600 a spectrum from small unwanted acts, repeated contact that's unwanted, 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:20.760 all the way through to very predatory and concerning behaviors, 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:23.280 you know, such as breaking into a house and going 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:27.280 through a person's underwear drawer and moving things around. So 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:30.560 it is a type of offending that is so broad, 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:32.720 but we need to think about it, I think from 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:35.240 a from a couple of different lenses, and one is 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:40.080 how persistent is it? And then also how likely is 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:43.840 it to become severe and escalating nature. So stalking can 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:48.160 be very broad in motivation. So sometimes it's targeted because 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:54.200 of you resentment towards an ex partner. Sometimes it's revenge 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:58.080 towards a workplace. Other times it might be because the 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:02.720 person's mentally unwell and they are constantly making unwanted contact 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:06.800 because of quite a distortion about the person of the targeting. 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:09.720 And then other times it's very predatory and that can 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:13.480 often end up being quite significant violence or even sexual 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:17.600 offending towards a person so it's multifaceted and it exists 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:18.520 on a spectrum. 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.680 Have you in your work with New Zealand Plece some 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:25.160 have been involved in stalking cases and how they play 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:28.200 that You don't have to identify the specific case, but 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:31.920 stalking cases are the vscalated. Yeah. 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:37.280 Look as both a consultant forensic psychologist and also working 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:39.080 in the police and a lot of the times it's 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:42.920 looking at it from a threat lens and how concerned 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:45.800 do we need to be about the case. And sometimes 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:49.320 it's about understanding the motivation and the functionality of the 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:51.760 stalking So what is it that the person's trying to 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:55.360 achieve here and why is it that they are failing 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:59.440 to understand that that behavior is unwanted and not reciprocated. 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.960 Often there's an educational component and then sometimes it's looking 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:06.960 at as well, is this going to persist or is 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:11.200 this going to escalate with the stalking case. Intimate partner 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:15.520 violence is another one that we sometimes become very concerned about. 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:21.000 Often stalking will exist amongst a range of other forms 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:25.240 of intimate partner violence, particularly coercive control, and we know 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:30.800 that across cases of fatal intimate partner violence that around 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:34.560 about seventy five percent of those cases have stalking in them. 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:38.160 And often when a partner is killed or an ext 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:41.640 partner is killed, it's where there's been a high level 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:45.960 of coercive control and the victim has tried to regain 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:49.200 a level of independence and autonomy and that has been 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:52.480 the final tipping point for the offender and they have 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:55.120 killed that person as that sort of final active trying 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:57.640 to have dominance and control over their lives, which is 0:16:58.080 --> 0:16:58.960 really quite horrific. 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:01.320 Well, the scary part is a dangerous period is in 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:04.800 those domestic violent situations when the partner is trying to leave, 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:08.080 that's when they're at the greatest, greatest risk. 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:15.360 Absolutely. Yeah, ed is concerning and again education is quite important, 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:19.199 but the flip side of that is it's hard to 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:22.680 have that conversation with people as well, and should people 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:25.879 really have to be that well educated and informed? You know, 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:28.879 everyone has a right to safety in many ways, and 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:33.680 unfortunately we still have huge concerns with people willing to 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:36.280 take matters into their own hands and become violent. 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:41.320 Do you think and I'm talking New South Wales or 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:46.160 Australia may be relevant to New Zealand whether the courts 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:51.439 fully appreciate the nature of it. If someone even the 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:54.159 public's perception that's almost a joke, like I've got a 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:57.120 stalker and we saw the laugh. Yeah, but I've had 0:17:57.160 --> 0:17:59.200 so many people contact me when I was in the 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:03.720 police as police, but people contact me post police, reaching 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.080 out and they've got a stalker and no one seems 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:08.920 to take it seriously and they're terrified. Do you think 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:12.720 the courts take it and the police take it seriously 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:13.520 enough for stalking. 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:17.639 It's hard to give a blanket answer to that. But 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:22.080 with what you're saying, there are of course many cases 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:25.760 where people just go it's unwanted contact, they'll stop, or 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:30.479 they just dismiss it. And that's where stalking becomes a problem, 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:34.200 because when we dismiss it, it keeps going, and we 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:37.639 need to make sure that we're putting the right level 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:42.840 of response to a situation. And the temptation is unfortunately 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:46.199 to water down the seriousness of it, and that of 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:49.119 course allows it to keep going, and then before you 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:51.719 know it, it's three months, then it's six months. We've 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:55.720 hit a year, and that's a really reinforced and ingrained 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:58.560 pattern and the person may or the offender may have 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:01.760 had quite a bit of feedback that this is a 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:04.200 successful way to keep that person in their life. By 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:05.520 that stage, well. 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:08.560 I think, and this is when I'm giving people advice. 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:10.920 If they've got a stalk with if they make contact 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:13.760 that does end up in court, their concern is that 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:15.840 brings this person back into my life. And so the 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:19.480 stalkers achieved what they want to achieve. So it's a 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:23.920 hard thing to police, but it's something that I've always thought. 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:26.040 They were red flags to me when I saw it 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:30.159 in any capacity of an investigation. If someone was stalking someone, 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:32.800 the being told we don't want to speak to you, 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:35.520 stay away from us, and they ignore that, that is 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:37.880 a warning sign of I on the right track there, 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:38.520 Like it's. 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:41.400 Yeah, absolutely, yeah. You look at things like approach behavior. 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:44.480 You know, how much are they prepared to or toward 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:47.199 extent are they prepared to approach the victim, to be 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:51.840 intrusive towards the victim? Are they engaging inst surveillance like behaviors, 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:56.200 are they entering the person's residence, And also factors such 0:19:56.280 --> 0:20:00.840 as mental illness can play a role, personality disorders, and 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:03.560 we look at as well, you know, are they deterred 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:07.440 by things such as court orders. If it keeps going 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:10.120 after court orders again, that's very troubling. 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:13.160 Well, I've had people that the victims of the stalking 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:14.880 that have come back to me when the courts haven't 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:17.639 gone hard on the stalker, the stalker comes back to 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:20.120 them just laughing, going, look the courts don't even care 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:27.840 and empowers them on coercive control. Relatively recently had that 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:31.119 start to come into a play, legislation that come into play. 0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:33.439 I haven't seen it actually play out in court, so 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:35.960 I think a big part of it is going to 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:37.800 be how the police uses as a tool. I think 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:41.439 it's a powerful tool. Is coercive control legislative over in 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:44.359 New Zealand? Is that something that's come into play over there? 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:48.359 No, it's not legislated over there yet. And remarkably, we 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:51.480 don't actually have a stalking law or a stalking chargers yet. 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:56.119 So there's been talk that shouldn't say talk, it's probably 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:59.680 a loose word for that, but there's been political movement 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:04.840 that legislation is going to be proposed quite soon and 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:08.600 then we will have a stalking law, but no coercive control. 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:13.399 Over in Australia, here is a reasonably new charge in 0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:16.479 a couple of states, so it'd be really interesting to 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:19.679 monitor how that goes. But the research on intimate partner 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:24.040 violence has certainly been the big reason that we're seeing 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:28.159 that law come in because it's been so prevalent but 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:31.280 also relevant to fatal cases. 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:35.800 Yeah, yeah, there's been to many of them in this country, 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:41.159 that's for sure. The interview room, Yes, you're working for 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:43.760 New Zealand Police. Is that part of the role that 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:47.400 you do help investigators prepare for an interview, to sit 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:48.639 down in the interview room. 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:50.719 Yeah. We've been doing quite a bit of work in 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:54.360 that space of late over the last two years or so, 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:57.760 and it is one of the main things that we're 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:00.960 doing currently around how do we under stand the person 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:03.600 in front of us and how do we tailor our 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:08.920 response to ensure that we're meeting them at their level. 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:12.920 Yeah, yeah, I look, I find the interview room fascinating. 0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:15.639 That was that was my happy place in policing. I 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:18.120 found it very stimulating to be in the interview room. 0:22:18.359 --> 0:22:20.119 A lot of pressure, a lot of build up and 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:22.800 all that, but the way that you approach and the investigation. 0:22:23.480 --> 0:22:25.199 I'll throw a couple of things out just for a 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:29.560 point of discussion I learned from people that I looked 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:31.960 up to as interviewers, and I've sort of tried to 0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:35.439 adopt the aspects of the way they approached the interview. 0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:38.360 But I also learned that you've got to be You've 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:41.040 got to be legitimate, like you've got to be yourself 0:22:41.040 --> 0:22:43.440 in the interview room. I've seen people try to I've 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:46.880 tried to mimic people the way they interview someone doesn't work. 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:49.240 I've got to be myself. I've had other people try 0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:52.000 to mimic me the way I interview. It doesn't work. 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:53.520 So I think there's something that you've got to build, 0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:56.119 that rapport with someone in the interview room. Would you 0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:57.520 agree agree with that? 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:02.439 Yes, spot on. I member poor has become arguably the 0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:06.879 most crucial ingredient in an interview now, and we have 0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:09.880 come a long way. It's hard to talk about what 0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:13.479 current police practices are, but I dare say that across 0:23:13.520 --> 0:23:19.840 Australia and New Zealand there's an improved understanding that rapport 0:23:20.080 --> 0:23:23.400 really is a cornerstone of the interview. So it's very 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:28.240 hard to have a serious major crime interview without rapport. 0:23:28.320 --> 0:23:31.320 We can't just get the person in now and go 0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:34.960 straight into the offending straight into the issues that there's 0:23:35.000 --> 0:23:37.119 got to be a build up to that because we 0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:39.919 can't we can't expect someone to want to talk to 0:23:40.000 --> 0:23:42.760 us if we're not establishing rapport with them. 0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:46.840 Yeah, I agree with that, and I people have said 0:23:46.960 --> 0:23:50.760 characteristics of a good detective empathy empathy in the interview 0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:53.600 room that you're sitting down and trying to understand where 0:23:53.640 --> 0:23:56.760 this person's coming from. It might discuss me where they're 0:23:56.800 --> 0:23:58.520 coming from. I might agree with it, but I won't 0:23:58.520 --> 0:24:00.600