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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with forensic

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Speaker 1: psychologists Nathan Brooks. In part one, we talked about Nathan's work,

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Speaker 1: the difference between serial killers and mass murderers, and the

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Speaker 1: emerging trend of loan actors who go on killing sprees.

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Speaker 1: In part two, Nathan talks about the christ Church massacre,

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Speaker 1: where the actions of one man led to the death

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Speaker 1: of fifty one people. Nathan breaks down how and why

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Speaker 1: this crime occurred and how we can try and prevent

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Speaker 1: these types of killings in the future. It was a

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Speaker 1: fascinating and informative chat. Have a listened to what Nathan

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Speaker 1: has to say, Nathan Brooks or doctor Nathan Brooks, I

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Speaker 1: should say, welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Gary.

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Speaker 1: I've got to say I am finding this conversation fascinating

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Speaker 1: and was working as a homicide detective. I found this

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Speaker 1: inside the mind of killers or all the type of

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Speaker 1: things that you're examining absolutely fascinating. I'm sure you're getting

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Speaker 1: this all the time, but is that people are fascinating?

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Speaker 2: I think unpacking what makes troubling and sometimes very violent

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Speaker 2: people tick is it is it's fascinating because most of

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Speaker 2: us can't understand it. And when we think about psychopaths,

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Speaker 2: for instance, Yeah, they are the ones that think different

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Speaker 2: and make different decisions, and we're often caught up in

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Speaker 2: our own emotions. But for some folks, like psychopathic folks,

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Speaker 2: that they're cool and calm under pressure, that they're not

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Speaker 2: burdened by the anxiety that we have, and that's hard

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Speaker 2: for everyday people to understand.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I want to talk about the christ Church

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Speaker 1: massacre which is you know, I'm sure most people know it.

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Speaker 1: I'll just read out a summary of it, just so

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Speaker 1: people that haven't been aware of it they are aware

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Speaker 1: of what happened. So two consecutive mass shootings took place

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Speaker 1: in christ Church, New Zealand, on the fifteenth of March

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. They were committed during Friday prayer, first at

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Speaker 1: the Elnora Mosque at Rickiton at one forty pm, and

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Speaker 1: almost immediately after at Limbwood Islamic Center at one point

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Speaker 1: fifty two. Altogether, fifty one people were killed and eighty

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Speaker 1: nine others were injured, including forty by gunfire. The perpetrator

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Speaker 1: was an Australian man, Brenton Tarrant, then age twenty eight.

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Speaker 1: Tarrant was arrested after his vehicles ran by a police

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Speaker 1: car as he was driving to a third mosque, nash Burton.

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Speaker 1: He live streamed the first shooting on Facebook, making the

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Speaker 1: first successful live stream far right terror attack, and had

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Speaker 1: published a manifesto online before the attack that just sort

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Speaker 1: of sets the saying. I think anyone that recalls that

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Speaker 1: incident knows how horrifying it was. You've looked at it

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Speaker 1: in depth, what's your take on what caused the lead

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Speaker 1: up to it and why did it get that dramatic

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Speaker 1: And we touched on small parts of it in part one.

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Speaker 1: If we could just deep dive into it now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So before we get into it, my caveat that

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Speaker 2: I'm obviously with the New Zealand Police and this is

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Speaker 2: certainly my view on the situation. It's not at all

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Speaker 2: reflective of theirs. But it is a really complex case.

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Speaker 2: I think when anyone carries out such a horrific mass

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Speaker 2: act of violence, there are many many layers and what

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Speaker 2: we saw in that incident and that tragic attack was

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Speaker 2: that several years of build up went into it. It

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Speaker 2: wasn't something that just happened overnight. We know that Tarrent

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Speaker 2: moved to New Zealand with the intention of carrying out

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Speaker 2: a mass casualty attack, and that was his reason for

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Speaker 2: moving over there. I believe he cited the fact that

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Speaker 2: it was partly the ability to access the firearms that

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Speaker 2: was one of the primary factors, and shortly after getting

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Speaker 2: there he commenced training with firearms and acquiring tactical capabilities.

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Speaker 2: But to understand him, we probably need to trace things

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Speaker 2: back to his childhood and he had in many ways,

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Speaker 2: probably something that hasn't garnered a lot of attention. Quite

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Speaker 2: a traumatic childhood we focused a lot, particularly, I think

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Speaker 2: the media courage has been a lot around his ideology.

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Speaker 2: But there are a lot of puzzle pieces that were

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Speaker 2: there early on for him in his early years.

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Speaker 1: What type of things were they.

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Speaker 2: So one of the things that we look at for

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Speaker 2: childhood is whether people experience trauma and the influence that

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Speaker 2: that can have on them as they develop and grow

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Speaker 2: into adults. And adverse childhood experiences is often a marker

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Speaker 2: that we use to look at how bad that trauma

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Speaker 2: is or how much adversity your child has had in

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Speaker 2: their upbringing, And a lot of research would say around

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Speaker 2: four or five adverse experiences can have quite significant impact

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Speaker 2: on someone as they age and really shape who they become.

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Speaker 2: And we know Arran had a troubled upbringing. So his

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Speaker 2: parents separated, which I'll just run through some of it.

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Speaker 2: So some of the adverse experiences are parental separation, parental

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Speaker 2: mental health, criminality, unstable housing, financial issues, drug use. So

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Speaker 2: the tip things that we that we might expect. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and so so Terence's parents obviously split up, so we

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Speaker 2: had the separation his mother then started dating a new

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Speaker 2: individual I believe it was an aboriginal fellow, and he

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Speaker 2: was reportedly violent towards Tarrant and his sister, and that

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Speaker 2: abuse continued over several years. Then we also had his

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Speaker 2: father who suffered from mental health difficulties and then also

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Speaker 2: developed cancer I believe for Mary and ultimately then committed

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Speaker 2: suicide as well. So there were some quite notable things there. Drama, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and he also Terrant himself was struggled to fit in socially,

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Speaker 2: as we which touched on before. He was often bullied.

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Speaker 2: He was considered to be quite overweight as well, and

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Speaker 2: then in his late teens he had a big transformation

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Speaker 2: and became quite fixated and about the gym and lost

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Speaker 2: quite a lot of weight.

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Speaker 1: I think it was in your book it was something

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Speaker 1: like forty or fifty years huge, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Quite remarkable. And also during that adolescence we see that

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Speaker 2: some early racist remarks were coming out in his school years,

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Speaker 2: which suggests there's certainly, you know, some difficulties with how

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Speaker 2: we're seeing the world and people and maybe even seeing

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Speaker 2: that there's certain people that are to blame or that

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Speaker 2: are causing hardships for him, and that might have been

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Speaker 2: reflective of what things were like on the home front,

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Speaker 2: with you know, with the physical abuse that was happening

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Speaker 2: at home, and from there as he aged. I think

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Speaker 2: he has spent a period being a personal trainer after

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Speaker 2: high school, and then he inherited a large sum of

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Speaker 2: money once his father passed away, and that basically funded

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Speaker 2: him to go and travel overseas for quite a few years.

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Speaker 2: And unfortunately, rather than taking inspiration from the the cultures

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Speaker 2: and the different people, he became very cynical, and if

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Speaker 2: we look at the various accounts and things that have

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Speaker 2: been covered on the topic, his views were shaped in

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Speaker 2: a very negative manner. It did coincide with while he

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Speaker 2: was in Europe with some Islamic based attacks occurring, so

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Speaker 2: in Islamic most terrorist attacks at the time, and that

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Speaker 2: all sort of seemed to come together along with his

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Speaker 2: strong reliance on online groups in four chan and eight

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Speaker 2: chan and some of these other forums where he was

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Speaker 2: really fueling his beliefs about the world and having those

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Speaker 2: reciprocad back to him, and the classic sort of echo

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Speaker 2: chamber effects started to happen from there, where the ideology

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Speaker 2: really became perpetuated and continued to get reinforced.

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Speaker 1: Out the time. I suppose what he's exposing himself too

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Speaker 1: is only going to people people that share the same ideology,

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Speaker 1: and that becomes that cycle. Yes, it reinforces his belief Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I think the further down that rabbit hole that

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Speaker 2: you go, the more you find things that support those views.

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Speaker 2: And you know, we get that the classic distortion aspect

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Speaker 2: happen where you look for things that are what you want,

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Speaker 2: you look for things that reinforce your beliefs, and then

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Speaker 2: you ignore anything that's contradictory. And that's what we find

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Speaker 2: with a lot of ideological aspects is people cherry pick

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Speaker 2: what they focus on and they ignore the things that

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Speaker 2: are contradictory to that, and that of course can very

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Speaker 2: easily then start to lead to quite extreme beliefs when

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Speaker 2: you're only looking at a small fragment of an issue.

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Speaker 1: So the build up would you describe as a perfect

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Speaker 1: storm in terms of what the build up before he

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Speaker 1: carried out this horrible act.

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Speaker 2: Well, there certainly, I think the cycle, logical makeup, the

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Speaker 2: psychological foundation was a big factor. So he had a

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Speaker 2: lot of vulnerabilities. There clearly a lot of unresolved anger

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Speaker 2: that was never addressed, and then we had the Internet

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Speaker 2: peace on top of that, where he's engaging in various ideological,

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Speaker 2: extreme right wing views that are being perpetuated and fueled.

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Speaker 2: He's then quite financially well off as well, which gave

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Speaker 2: him access and capability factors, and then develops the plan

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Speaker 2: or the intent to carry out some sort of violence

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Speaker 2: to avenge or seek justice for the injustice which he's

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Speaker 2: perceiving in the world. And then starts to begin planning

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Speaker 2: and moves to New Zealand with the intention of carrying

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Speaker 2: out a mass casualty attack, And a bit like with

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Speaker 2: Anders Bravic in Norway, we see the culmination of factors

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Speaker 2: come together, along with the secrecy and the willingness to

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Speaker 2: dedicate a couple of years of your life to carrying

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Speaker 2: out such a horrific active violence. I mean that itself

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Speaker 2: is nearly unheard of and so remarkable that someone could

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Speaker 2: be so dedicated over that obsession to give their life

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Speaker 2: to that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there were a number of inquiries that flowed on

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Speaker 1: from the event. Did anything jump out in the part

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Speaker 1: where it could have been I won't say prevented, because

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Speaker 1: as I keep saying that it's easy in hindsight, But

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Speaker 1: is there any indicators or ways that it could have

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Speaker 1: been diffused? Do you think how could you approach it

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Speaker 1: if you look back with the benefit of hindsight. Okay,

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Speaker 1: when he got to this point, there should have been

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Speaker 1: some intervention.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's again in hindsight. So there was a Royal

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Speaker 2: commission in New Zealand into Royal Commission of Inquiry into

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Speaker 2: the attack and it's a nearly nine hundred page document

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Speaker 2: which reviewed it. Now, some of the interesting findings were

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Speaker 2: more around systems and processes rather than terror himself, so

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Speaker 2: it looked at, you know things. So he had a

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Speaker 2: gunshot wound in the months prior to the attack, and

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Speaker 2: at the time there were no mandatory reporting practices for

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Speaker 2: gunshot wounds. So that has since changed so that if

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Speaker 2: someone presents to hospital with a gunshot wound, that is

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Speaker 2: then passed on to police and then followed up. Firearm

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Speaker 2: register was something that wasn't strong and that's been completely

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Speaker 2: revamped to make access to firearms much more difficult and

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Speaker 2: mental health checks and interviews and those sorts of processes.

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Speaker 2: So again another positive step that has been put in place. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and of course the access to guns has been reduced

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Speaker 2: as well, So some of those capability and incident reporting

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Speaker 2: systems have been improved, been a lot more funding as well.

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Speaker 2: That's gone into violent extremism, and I think as well

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Speaker 2: that improved police practic and that's not being critical at

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Speaker 2: all of the police practices, but unfortunately when we have incidents,

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Speaker 2: of course that reviews, that leads.

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Speaker 1: To change and the improvements. Of course, when when it

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Speaker 1: gets that way not well, I suppose it's the magnitude

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Speaker 1: of the crime that he created there required that review

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Speaker 1: lesser type of crimes. But one you and I spoke

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Speaker 1: off camera about it, and you are, you're over here

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Speaker 1: and you're going to deliver a lecture on it. Stalking.

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Speaker 1: Stalking to me is a major concern. What message have

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Speaker 1: you got or what have you learned about stalking people

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Speaker 1: that are prepared to stalk? And over here in Australia

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Speaker 1: and not just New South Wales, across the across the country,

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Speaker 1: we've got a lot of domestic violence where unfortunately it's

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Speaker 1: male partners invariably murdering female partners. And you look at

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Speaker 1: it and I can virtually guarantee they'll be stalking involved

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Speaker 1: and not accepting the relationship being over and different things

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Speaker 1: like that. What's your your assessment of stalking?

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Speaker 2: Oh, look, it's so it's so troubling. And one of

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Speaker 2: the challenges we're stalking is that it exists on such

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Speaker 2: a spectrum from small unwanted acts, repeated contact that's unwanted,

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Speaker 2: all the way through to very predatory and concerning behaviors,

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Speaker 2: you know, such as breaking into a house and going

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Speaker 2: through a person's underwear drawer and moving things around. So

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Speaker 2: it is a type of offending that is so broad,

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Speaker 2: but we need to think about it, I think from

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Speaker 2: a from a couple of different lenses, and one is

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Speaker 2: how persistent is it? And then also how likely is

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Speaker 2: it to become severe and escalating nature. So stalking can

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Speaker 2: be very broad in motivation. So sometimes it's targeted because

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Speaker 2: of you resentment towards an ex partner. Sometimes it's revenge

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Speaker 2: towards a workplace. Other times it might be because the

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Speaker 2: person's mentally unwell and they are constantly making unwanted contact

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Speaker 2: because of quite a distortion about the person of the targeting.

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Speaker 2: And then other times it's very predatory and that can

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Speaker 2: often end up being quite significant violence or even sexual

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Speaker 2: offending towards a person so it's multifaceted and it exists

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Speaker 2: on a spectrum.

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Speaker 1: Have you in your work with New Zealand Plece some

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Speaker 1: have been involved in stalking cases and how they play

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Speaker 1: that You don't have to identify the specific case, but

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Speaker 1: stalking cases are the vscalated. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Look as both a consultant forensic psychologist and also working

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Speaker 2: in the police and a lot of the times it's

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Speaker 2: looking at it from a threat lens and how concerned

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Speaker 2: do we need to be about the case. And sometimes

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Speaker 2: it's about understanding the motivation and the functionality of the

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Speaker 2: stalking So what is it that the person's trying to

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Speaker 2: achieve here and why is it that they are failing

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Speaker 2: to understand that that behavior is unwanted and not reciprocated.

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Speaker 2: Often there's an educational component and then sometimes it's looking

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Speaker 2: at as well, is this going to persist or is

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Speaker 2: this going to escalate with the stalking case. Intimate partner

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Speaker 2: violence is another one that we sometimes become very concerned about.

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Speaker 2: Often stalking will exist amongst a range of other forms

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Speaker 2: of intimate partner violence, particularly coercive control, and we know

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Speaker 2: that across cases of fatal intimate partner violence that around

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Speaker 2: about seventy five percent of those cases have stalking in them.

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Speaker 2: And often when a partner is killed or an ext

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Speaker 2: partner is killed, it's where there's been a high level

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Speaker 2: of coercive control and the victim has tried to regain

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Speaker 2: a level of independence and autonomy and that has been

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Speaker 2: the final tipping point for the offender and they have

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Speaker 2: killed that person as that sort of final active trying

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Speaker 2: to have dominance and control over their lives, which is

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Speaker 2: really quite horrific.

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Speaker 1: Well, the scary part is a dangerous period is in

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Speaker 1: those domestic violent situations when the partner is trying to leave,

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Speaker 1: that's when they're at the greatest, greatest risk.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah, ed is concerning and again education is quite important,

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Speaker 2: but the flip side of that is it's hard to

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Speaker 2: have that conversation with people as well, and should people

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Speaker 2: really have to be that well educated and informed? You know,

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Speaker 2: everyone has a right to safety in many ways, and

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Speaker 2: unfortunately we still have huge concerns with people willing to

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Speaker 2: take matters into their own hands and become violent.

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Speaker 1: Do you think and I'm talking New South Wales or

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Speaker 1: Australia may be relevant to New Zealand whether the courts

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Speaker 1: fully appreciate the nature of it. If someone even the

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Speaker 1: public's perception that's almost a joke, like I've got a

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Speaker 1: stalker and we saw the laugh. Yeah, but I've had

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Speaker 1: so many people contact me when I was in the

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Speaker 1: police as police, but people contact me post police, reaching

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Speaker 1: out and they've got a stalker and no one seems

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Speaker 1: to take it seriously and they're terrified. Do you think

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Speaker 1: the courts take it and the police take it seriously

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Speaker 1: enough for stalking.

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Speaker 2: It's hard to give a blanket answer to that. But

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Speaker 2: with what you're saying, there are of course many cases

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Speaker 2: where people just go it's unwanted contact, they'll stop, or

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Speaker 2: they just dismiss it. And that's where stalking becomes a problem,

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Speaker 2: because when we dismiss it, it keeps going, and we

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Speaker 2: need to make sure that we're putting the right level

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Speaker 2: of response to a situation. And the temptation is unfortunately

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Speaker 2: to water down the seriousness of it, and that of

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Speaker 2: course allows it to keep going, and then before you

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Speaker 2: know it, it's three months, then it's six months. We've

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Speaker 2: hit a year, and that's a really reinforced and ingrained

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Speaker 2: pattern and the person may or the offender may have

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Speaker 2: had quite a bit of feedback that this is a

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Speaker 2: successful way to keep that person in their life. By

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Speaker 2: that stage, well.

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Speaker 1: I think, and this is when I'm giving people advice.

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Speaker 1: If they've got a stalk with if they make contact

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Speaker 1: that does end up in court, their concern is that

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Speaker 1: brings this person back into my life. And so the

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Speaker 1: stalkers achieved what they want to achieve. So it's a

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Speaker 1: hard thing to police, but it's something that I've always thought.

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Speaker 1: They were red flags to me when I saw it

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Speaker 1: in any capacity of an investigation. If someone was stalking someone,

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Speaker 1: the being told we don't want to speak to you,

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Speaker 1: stay away from us, and they ignore that, that is

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Speaker 1: a warning sign of I on the right track there,

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Speaker 1: Like it's.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. You look at things like approach behavior.

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Speaker 2: You know, how much are they prepared to or toward

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Speaker 2: extent are they prepared to approach the victim, to be

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Speaker 2: intrusive towards the victim? Are they engaging inst surveillance like behaviors,

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Speaker 2: are they entering the person's residence, And also factors such

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Speaker 2: as mental illness can play a role, personality disorders, and

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Speaker 2: we look at as well, you know, are they deterred

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Speaker 2: by things such as court orders. If it keeps going

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Speaker 2: after court orders again, that's very troubling.

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Speaker 1: Well, I've had people that the victims of the stalking

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Speaker 1: that have come back to me when the courts haven't

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Speaker 1: gone hard on the stalker, the stalker comes back to

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Speaker 1: them just laughing, going, look the courts don't even care

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Speaker 1: and empowers them on coercive control. Relatively recently had that

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Speaker 1: start to come into a play, legislation that come into play.

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen it actually play out in court, so

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Speaker 1: I think a big part of it is going to

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Speaker 1: be how the police uses as a tool. I think

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Speaker 1: it's a powerful tool. Is coercive control legislative over in

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Speaker 1: New Zealand? Is that something that's come into play over there?

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Speaker 2: No, it's not legislated over there yet. And remarkably, we

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Speaker 2: don't actually have a stalking law or a stalking chargers yet.

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Speaker 2: So there's been talk that shouldn't say talk, it's probably

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Speaker 2: a loose word for that, but there's been political movement

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Speaker 2: that legislation is going to be proposed quite soon and

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Speaker 2: then we will have a stalking law, but no coercive control.

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Speaker 2: Over in Australia, here is a reasonably new charge in

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Speaker 2: a couple of states, so it'd be really interesting to

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Speaker 2: monitor how that goes. But the research on intimate partner

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Speaker 2: violence has certainly been the big reason that we're seeing

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Speaker 2: that law come in because it's been so prevalent but

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Speaker 2: also relevant to fatal cases.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there's been to many of them in this country,

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Speaker 1: that's for sure. The interview room, Yes, you're working for

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Speaker 1: New Zealand Police. Is that part of the role that

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Speaker 1: you do help investigators prepare for an interview, to sit

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Speaker 1: down in the interview room.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. We've been doing quite a bit of work in

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Speaker 2: that space of late over the last two years or so,

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Speaker 2: and it is one of the main things that we're

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Speaker 2: doing currently around how do we under stand the person

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Speaker 2: in front of us and how do we tailor our

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Speaker 2: response to ensure that we're meeting them at their level.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I look, I find the interview room fascinating.

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Speaker 1: That was that was my happy place in policing. I

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Speaker 1: found it very stimulating to be in the interview room.

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Speaker 1: A lot of pressure, a lot of build up and

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Speaker 1: all that, but the way that you approach and the investigation.

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Speaker 1: I'll throw a couple of things out just for a

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Speaker 1: point of discussion I learned from people that I looked

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Speaker 1: up to as interviewers, and I've sort of tried to

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Speaker 1: adopt the aspects of the way they approached the interview.

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Speaker 1: But I also learned that you've got to be You've

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Speaker 1: got to be legitimate, like you've got to be yourself

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Speaker 1: in the interview room. I've seen people try to I've

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Speaker 1: tried to mimic people the way they interview someone doesn't work.

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Speaker 1: I've got to be myself. I've had other people try

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Speaker 1: to mimic me the way I interview. It doesn't work.

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Speaker 1: So I think there's something that you've got to build,

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Speaker 1: that rapport with someone in the interview room. Would you

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Speaker 1: agree agree with that?

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Speaker 2: Yes, spot on. I member poor has become arguably the

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Speaker 2: most crucial ingredient in an interview now, and we have

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Speaker 2: come a long way. It's hard to talk about what

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Speaker 2: current police practices are, but I dare say that across

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Speaker 2: Australia and New Zealand there's an improved understanding that rapport

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Speaker 2: really is a cornerstone of the interview. So it's very

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Speaker 2: hard to have a serious major crime interview without rapport.

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Speaker 2: We can't just get the person in now and go

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Speaker 2: straight into the offending straight into the issues that there's

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Speaker 2: got to be a build up to that because we

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Speaker 2: can't we can't expect someone to want to talk to

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Speaker 2: us if we're not establishing rapport with them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with that, and I people have said

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Speaker 1: characteristics of a good detective empathy empathy in the interview

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Speaker 1: room that you're sitting down and trying to understand where

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Speaker 1: this person's coming from. It might discuss me where they're

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Speaker 1: coming from. I might agree with it, but I won't

401
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Speaker 1: show that on my face. That will be very much

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Speaker 1: a poker face in what they're telling me, So there's

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Speaker 1: not judgment there to go with people. Again, I'll just

404
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Speaker 1: throw in some of my thoughts on the interview room

405
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Speaker 1: because I'm interested in getting getting your thoughts. Some people

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Speaker 1: are going to the interview room and I would be

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Speaker 1: very professional. I'd deliberately present professionally because I thought that

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Speaker 1: was the best way to communicate. Otherwise I'd get in

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Speaker 1: there and be very relaxed when we talk about rapport.

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Speaker 1: That's the type of thing I'm assessing the person in

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Speaker 1: the way that I want to approach. Sarah Ure, the

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Speaker 1: forensic psychologists I work with a talk about the carrot

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Speaker 1: or the stick, whether you're dangling something to them that

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Speaker 1: they want or they're feeling. And we can't threaten people

415
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Speaker 1: in an interview room obviously stick figuratively, we don't go

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Speaker 1: in there with a stick. What's your thoughts on different

417
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Speaker 1: approaches for different offenders, Like, there's not a one model

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Speaker 1: fits all, is there?

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Speaker 2: No? No, there's not, But I think there's some rules

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Speaker 2: of thumb that do hold up really well with with rapport.

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Speaker 2: So firstly, we need to foster commonality. So first principle

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Speaker 2: is if you're going in to interview someone, what is

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Speaker 2: it about you that's going to allow you to relate

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Speaker 2: to that person? What have you got in common? So

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Speaker 2: everyone should be able to find those things. Secondly, wein

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Speaker 2: look at our ability to compliment the person. And I

427
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Speaker 2: think when we say compliments, people think, oh, you know,

428
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Speaker 2: what are you on about? You're just basically trying to

429
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 2: praise them unnecessarily. But there's always things when we step

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Speaker 2: back and look at someone's life that we can acknowledge

431
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Speaker 2: and validate, and that is quite crucial that we still

432
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Speaker 2: do that we recognize them as individuals and as small

433
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Speaker 2: as that achievement may be, it may be significant for them,

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Speaker 2: So where is this scope to compliment and validate that person?

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Speaker 2: And then the other one is humor, and that probably

436
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,919
Speaker 2: sounds like it doesn't belong in an interview room. But

437
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 2: how can we find moments of lightheartednessnst a really heavy

438
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 2: and serious conversation.

439
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I get where you're coming from. And that's

440
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 1: very much creating that relaxed environment where the conversation will

441
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 1: be for flowing. I think the way I approach interviews,

442
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: some people are very specific, word orientated. Listening to your answer,

443
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: what you exactly you said? I know, I've got that's

444
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 1: what comes down because the transcripts only reflects what you said.

445
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 1: But if I'm interviewing you in an interview room, in

446
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: a tense interview, and this is one where it's not

447
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: a lay down, as you haven't got all the evidence,

448
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: A lot's going to depend on what the person of

449
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: interest that you're interviewing talks about. It's about creating that,

450
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,479
Speaker 1: creating that environment where they feel comfortable to talk. But

451
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: I'm watching their body language like I might throw something

452
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 1: out a little bit left field, a little bit strange.

453
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: See how you react, Which way do you lean to

454
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: within interviewing or is this coming down to I said

455
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,880
Speaker 1: at the start that it's individual styles.

456
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:05,919
Speaker 2: Look, I think of these individual styles and some people

457
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 2: naturally have a really good style and some can learn it.

458
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 2: There's the intrusiveness peace to an interview as well. So

459
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 2: when do you become intrusive about the content of that conversation.

460
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 2: And when I say intrusiveness, what I'm really talking about

461
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 2: is topics that are uncomfortable and maybe more confronting. So

462
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 2: you would want to start low and soft and easier

463
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 2: conversation piece topics in the early stages of the interview,

464
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 2: and as the rapport develops, then you can become more

465
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 2: intrusive because there's a level of trust and respect understanding

466
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 2: developed between the interviewer and the interview we so you

467
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 2: can't go in too hot or too intrusive too early,

468
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 2: because you put yourself on the back foot and you

469
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 2: risk upsetting the person. So I think with the peace model,

470
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 2: which is widely used, you know, really in some ways

471
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 2: it's a bit like a five set tennis match where

472
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 2: we're looking at the cumulative momentum over several hours and

473
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 2: it's going back and forth, and if you do enough,

474
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 2: thing's the right way, it tips in your favor.

475
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: And a lot of the public's perception is that we've

476
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 1: got the right to interview people too, as in you're

477
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: obliged to answer questions. That's very much not the case,

478
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: so they're well within their rights. I've also found, and

479
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: talk to me about the characteristics of the people that

480
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 1: would buy into this, that I've sat down with people

481
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: that have an arrogance about them and that's the very

482
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: thing I'm going to exploit that, Like, they're dumb to

483
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: sit down and have an interview with me, but they're

484
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: so arrogant they think they're going to it doesn't have

485
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: to be me outsmart the police. I'm smarter than you,

486
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: and that's why they can't resist themselves sitting down having

487
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: an interview. Do you see that type of personality.

488
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's the tendency of people that believe that they

489
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 2: can control the situation and that they can talk their

490
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 2: way out of it, although they are the smartest person

491
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 2: in the room and that can sometimes bring them undone.

492
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 2: You A case over in New Zealand which has been

493
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 2: quite public and there's been a Netflix documentary on it

494
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 2: is Jesse Kimson and the Grace Malayan case and.

495
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: Your assessment on that.

496
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's been a lot published and segments of the

497
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 2: interview that have been publicly put out there of Kimsen

498
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 2: during his interview, and we certainly saw that he started

499
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 2: off very calm and believed that he could talk his

500
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 2: way out of it during the first interview that ended

501
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 2: up bringing him undone during the second interview, where a

502
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 2: lot of those stories were then able to be corroborated

503
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 2: and that worked against him in the end. Yeah.

504
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it is interesting what may devates people to

505
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: sit down and participate in the interview. What about crime scenes?

506
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: Your interpretation of crime scenes? And I think a discussion

507
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: initially when you came in here before on camera talking

508
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: about psychopaths how they can commit a horrendous crime and

509
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: not be rattled by it than leave. I would see

510
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: crime scenes where I would call it like a panic

511
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: crime scene. I don't think the person planned this, that

512
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 1: shocked them, that they've killed a person, and the crime

513
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: scene represents that. What's you're taken? What can you learn

514
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: from going to a crime scene?

515
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 2: Crime scenes are so valuable from anyone in the operational spaces.

516
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 2: You nearly need to see the crime scene or at

517
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 2: least have incredibly good photos of it to be able

518
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 2: to form any conclusions around it. But look, you look

519
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 2: for contradictions ultimately in the crime scene, don't you. And

520
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 2: sometimes chaotic crime scenes are stage crime scenes as well,

521
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 2: and then the absence of things that crime scenes can

522
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 2: also be very telling. So it's sometimes it's what's not

523
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 2: there that's important, and then the disarray as well can

524
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 2: also be quite telling. So I know that you know,

525
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 2: FBI would say that you study the work of the artists,

526
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 2: which is their crime scene, to try and understand them.

527
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: But I think the crime scene gives us very good

528
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 2: insights into one how the crime has occurred, and then

529
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 2: why things may or may not be there that should

530
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: be there or have been removed from a scene. So

531
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 2: it really looks at, you know, three stages before the crime,

532
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 2: during the crime, and then after the crime, and that

533
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 2: can give us valuable information across those three and then

534
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 2: together you form whether it's a profile or a working

535
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 2: theory around the offender and how.

536
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: They breakdown in an example or give examples for those

537
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: three breakdowns all.

538
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 2: So we go back to the Jesse Kimson case. So

539
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 2: it's been quite well publicized that he met Grace mulane

540
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 2: and then they went out for dinner, and then they

541
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 2: went back to his hotel room. Something transpired there which

542
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 2: resulted in Grace's death. It certainly seems like it was

543
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 2: probably unlikely that there was any intention to kill her.

544
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 2: But then when we look at post crime, we see

545
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 2: that he was very methodical after the offense, and there

546
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 2: was a lot of clean up. There was a lot

547
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 2: of stages, it's been well documented around him. He moved

548
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 2: her body, went and buried the body, cleaned the scene,

549
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 2: and there was quite a calmness in the chaos at

550
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 2: the time. And that's rather unusual. You know, we think

551
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 2: about someone trying to recover from a horrific event. There's

552
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 2: a lot of anxiety and panic and concern. It's unusual

553
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 2: to be quite methodical and calm.

554
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: Very much so, and that was something I always look

555
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,479
Speaker 1: to exploit that mistakes made after that the murders occurred

556
00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: or the crime has occurred. Little things like if a

557
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 1: murder weapon has been introduced to the crime soon, if

558
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: someone's bought, if it's a murder's happened in the house

559
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: and it's the kitchen knife from the kitchen bench that's

560
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: been used as a murder weapon. That tells me it

561
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: wasn't intent at the time they're going there, something escalated,

562
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: something has happened at the time, so not the planning.

563
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 1: These are the type of things you look for as

564
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: a forensic psychologist.

565
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, you know, how prepared and planned was someone

566
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 2: prior to the crime And going back to is there

567
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 2: evidence of cleanup and have items been taken away from

568
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 2: the scene, whether it's weapons or belongings of the victim.

569
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 2: Has the body been moved? If the body is there,

570
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 2: you know, is there a quite a bit of forensic

571
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 2: evidence it still remains. You know, often we think loosely

572
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 2: as a rule of thumb, you know, the less evidence

573
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 2: that's at the scene and the more that has been removed.

574
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 2: We're talking about a plan and prepared offender. Go back

575
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 2: to the classic FBI organized disorganized profile, which looked at

576
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 2: that the organized fellows tend to come to the scene

577
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 2: prepared and take things away and leave limited forensic evidence.

578
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 2: That disorganized Often there's a lot of forensic evidence. Things

579
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 2: are in disarray. There can be a scrambled a tempt

580
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 2: to cover the crime up and make it look like

581
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 2: something else.

582
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: Well, I take a lot away from the way the

583
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: bodies are disposed of to and you can almost see

584
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: the panic in the way some bodies are disposed of,

585
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: or you can see the planning and the time. So

586
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: that's all very telling, isn't it.

587
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 2: Yes, so some of them are quite superficially disposed of

588
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 2: essentially it's the first opportunity, or they're buried very.

589
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: Basically get this body.

590
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 2: Away from me here, and then others are you know,

591
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 2: take much longer and much more time.

592
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: Without going into methodology, is this the type of thing

593
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 1: you sit down with police New Zealand Police like, they'll

594
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: come to you, there's been a crime, the body has

595
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: been found, they contact you and this is how you

596
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 1: work work with the police.

597
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, absolutely so. It could be in avariety of stages.

598
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 2: It could be the homicides just happened and we're trying

599
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 2: to understand the crime scene and the behavior that's happened

600
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 2: and insights into the offender. It could be that we're

601
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 2: four weeks on and things have hit a wall and

602
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 2: leads have run dry, and will review the crime and

603
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 2: look at trying to generate new lines of inquiry.

604
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: Right, we spoke in part one about serial killers or

605
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: the demise of serial killers, which is a pretty good

606
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: way of saying that that's good that they're reducing that

607
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: serial sex offenders, but yeah, I've worked serial sex crimes.

608
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 1: Have they reduced serial killing? So the same things that

609
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: are reducing serial murderers reducing serial sex offenders or is

610
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: it still Yeah?

611
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 2: The big one would be our intrue to rapists and

612
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 2: it is rare for us to get a series of

613
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 2: those these days. I think that's true across Australia and

614
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 2: New Zealand. We still get lots of touch based offenses

615
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,800
Speaker 2: towards strangers, bus stops, those sorts of public public areas,

616
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 2: but you know, the rapist that's targeting strangers or going

617
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 2: in to homes is it's much less common. That doesn't

618
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 2: mean that they don't happen those offenses, but it's rare

619
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 2: that they are a series. Now they are often caught

620
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 2: much quicker, and again that's because of all the improvements

621
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 2: in technology that we.

622
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 1: Have and just a sharing of information too. I think

623
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: that's a big part because before we would often be

624
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 1: looking for an offender that's got a certain type of

625
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,720
Speaker 1: characteristic about characteristics about the way he commits a crime.

626
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 1: Someone else in the neighboring lac might be doing the

627
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: same thing. In the old days, it wasn't a case

628
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 1: that would be sharing the information, But we've to waken

629
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 1: up to that.

630
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 2: Now and see New Zealand runs by Class which catalogs

631
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 2: all the stranger sex offenses across the country. So our

632
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 2: behavioral science unit is keeping a data lot of over

633
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 2: a decade and more of all the stranger six crimes.

634
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 2: So if we do have something that comes up, we're

635
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 2: able to draw on more than eight to nine thousand

636
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 2: cases and look at what we know about something of

637
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 2: a similar nature with a similar type of offending pattern.

638
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 2: And of course if we do get something, we could

639
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,919
Speaker 2: also look back at whether it is linked to any

640
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 2: other crimes as well.

641
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: Okay, again, excuse me from jumping from point to point,

642
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: but I'm finding the whole chat very interesting. Mental health

643
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: what part does that play? And I've got some stats

644
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,320
Speaker 1: here that I pulled out of your book, so I'm

645
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: hoping they're correct that seventeen and fifty percent of loane

646
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 1: actors are suffering from a mental illness at the time

647
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 1: of offending. Two thirds of perpetrators experiencing mental health concerns

648
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: in the period leading up to their attack. So look,

649
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: regardless of the specifics of the stats, it's saying that

650
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 1: mental health is a big thing in loan actors. What

651
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,359
Speaker 1: type of mental health issues are we looking at them?

652
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's the catch twenty two, isn't it?

653
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 2: In many ways of mental health, because again it's on

654
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 2: a spectrum, and it can be all the way from

655
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 2: psychotic based presentations where someone has completely lost touch with

656
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 2: reality and they are unaware and they don't have sound

657
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 2: mind with what they're doing. And it seems as though

658
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 2: that is a good example of the bond dijunction with

659
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 2: attack with Joel Kuchi, that he was schizophrenic for a

660
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 2: long period of time and psychotic at the time.

661
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: How much did you know about that particular case.

662
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's still emerging. I know there was

663
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 2: the recent inquiry and the results haven't been published, but

664
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 2: the psychotic aspect and his long term schizophrenic diagnosis seems

665
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:47,720
Speaker 2: to be quite central.

666
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: And I think it's already been mentioned in the public

667
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 1: and would have been mentioned that the inquest. But the

668
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 1: parents had concerns about him with his fascination with knives

669
00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:58,240
Speaker 1: and different things.

670
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's where where mental health is tricky because

671
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 2: there are so many people with mental health difficulties or

672
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 2: mental illness or psychosis or schizophrenia that aren't ever violent,

673
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 2: So that is quite important to put into context. But

674
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 2: you have to add layers to the mental health that

675
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 2: then add to the potential then to be violent. So yeah,

676
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 2: the various issues with grievances in life, very very very

677
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 2: much violent interests or things like that can then be

678
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 2: exacerbators for the mental illness. But then we can also

679
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 2: have things like depression that can be a catalyst for

680
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 2: then developing a grievance and affixation, and that can then

681
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 2: perpetuate and grow from there. So I think mental health

682
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 2: can be a causal factor or an indirect factor as well,

683
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:52,720
Speaker 2: and sometimes as well. We also say that there's subclinical

684
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 2: things that are not really at the diagnostic threshold which

685
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 2: drive behavior. It might be that someone the struggles with

686
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 2: shame and envy of others, and it's very likely to

687
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 2: get quite jealous, and they've got a personality that makes

688
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 2: them prone to collecting grievances or feeling like they've been wronged,

689
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 2: and that then walks them down that path to violence.

690
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: That's sitting here talking to you, I'm getting an appreciation

691
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,439
Speaker 1: of how complicated it is. If you see Sarah you're

692
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 1: at the conference, apologize to her. I expected too much

693
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 1: from her. There are so many layers and variables, isn't it.

694
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: So I can see why you try to structure things

695
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 1: as best you can. It's not foolproof, but yeah, here's

696
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: some indicators. This might be the way we prevent this.

697
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we need to be careful that as psychologists,

698
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 2: we're not always trying to come up with an explanation.

699
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 2: So it's over complicated, but loosely, I always go how

700
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 2: dyed up? Or are the dials for the persons or

701
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 2: how intense are things? Then we can also think about

702
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 2: how frequent is the symptoms or the traits, and then

703
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 2: what's the severity of it as well, So we need

704
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 2: to look at it through frameworks that make it understandable.

705
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: And a framework makes it as understandable as best you

706
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 1: can hope for. Leading into the use of AI, do

707
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: you see that as something that's going to be very

708
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 1: much in the forefront of criminal investigation.

709
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 2: It's hard. I mean, in terms of the mass casualty

710
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 2: space we've already seen over in the US that people

711
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 2: have had AI right plans around how to carry out

712
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 2: a mass casualty attack.

713
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: For I was thinking from the good guys, you're looking

714
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:35,280
Speaker 1: from the bad guys.

715
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 2: Offender capability enhancement aspect, and we know that that's happening already.

716
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 2: What it means for police investigations, it's really hard to say.

717
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: It'll make some of them more boring tasks of writing

718
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:53,359
Speaker 2: up things easier, but you know, facial recognition and those

719
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 2: sorts of things I think will transform as well, So

720
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 2: it's hard to anticipate where it will go.

721
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,760
Speaker 1: I'm thinking like by class you talk about like if

722
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: you had an AI component of assessing all the information,

723
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 1: that might make it even more readily about I think.

724
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 2: The ability to analyze mass amounts of data or information

725
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 2: will greatly improve, but it will still require the human

726
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 2: analysts to develop the right meaning and interpretation of that.

727
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 1: I'm looking at getting back to and prevention is the

728
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 1: key of hopefully what you're achieving. And I've got a

729
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: couple of headings here, but fixated thread assessments, fixated persons, unit,

730
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: need for information sharing. So three main points. So if

731
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: we're talking about preventing these type of loan actor attacks.

732
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:51,879
Speaker 1: Breaking down those three headings like fixated threat assessments, how

733
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: do they play a part? And I know we've touched

734
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: on it, but just breaking it down again.

735
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 2: So, fixated threat assessments really are police and mental health

736
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 2: specialists working together to make decisions about a person of concern,

737
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 2: and that starts by information coming in about a person

738
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:16,280
Speaker 2: and then doing a screening judgment to look at, Okay,

739
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 2: do we need to be concerned about this based on

740
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 2: the information? Do we need to dig more? We might

741
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 2: find that once we dig that it is concerning, then

742
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 2: you would go through the process of doing a more

743
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 2: rigorous assessment. Then you might look to engage with the

744
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,959
Speaker 2: person to understand things further, and then if you're still

745
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 2: concern then it would be going, okay, let's put some

746
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 2: wrap around support towards the person, and then you'd monitor,

747
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 2: you'd review, and if it's still not improving, that might

748
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:48,320
Speaker 2: be then when there's more targeted responses that could emerge.

749
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 1: It's a multi agency, isn't it. It's very much. It's

750
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 1: not just the police, it's mental health, the health system,

751
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:57,280
Speaker 1: all sorts of things.

752
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and in this space we've realized that it is

753
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 2: multi agency that we need to be very careful of

754
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 2: silos of information being held and locked down and not

755
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 2: being shared. Man around Monus was probably a good example

756
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,720
Speaker 2: of that. That information needs to flow to the right people,

757
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 2: and then those reviews and those assessments then need to

758
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 2: go back to other people in return, so we can't

759
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,319
Speaker 2: be locking down on things. We need to be very

760
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 2: mindful of gaps in practice where we don't have knowledge

761
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 2: disconnects between agencies as well, And I'd probably also say

762
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 2: that a couple of other things around bunkers. So not

763
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 2: just doing an assessment on someone and going, oh, you know,

764
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 2: look that low concern. We'll just put the paperwork in

765
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 2: the file and we're done with that, and two weeks

766
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:50,720
Speaker 2: later there's an incident. So we can't necessarily be reassured

767
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,479
Speaker 2: by the fact that we've done an assessment and go okay,

768
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 2: we can wash our hands of that. And then the

769
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 2: last one really is myopia, where we simply lose focus

770
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 2: because we're looking at this too much, or we're not

771
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 2: getting an outside perspective, so too much group think, well,

772
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 2: whatever it might be, where it causes us just to

773
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 2: not to see that this has changed. And probably I

774
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 2: think in the lone actor space that the myopia aspect

775
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 2: is where we may come undone again in the future

776
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 2: because we're seeing more and more young people now presenting

777
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 2: with risk factors and concerning behaviors that if someone had

778
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 2: said that to you a decade ago, you would have

779
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 2: been horrified and you would have hit the panic button.

780
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 2: Now that our tolerance.

781
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 1: For that we've become desensitizes.

782
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 2: So you know, people with very violent ideations and purchasing

783
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 2: of weapons and engagement in quite extreme goal and extremist

784
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 2: material that are very young. It's become commonplace is not

785
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,399
Speaker 2: the right word, but in the work that we do,

786
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 2: it's a little bit more commonplace now that that is

787
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 2: the type of person of concerned that you're seeing. And

788
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 2: the worry then is that we go, Okay, well, we're

789
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:08,479
Speaker 2: so used to that now and we've seen so many

790
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 2: of them that don't do anything, but we need to

791
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 2: be very rigorous and understand that that could change and

792
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 2: that could escalate.

793
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 1: I could see people dropping their guard down because we've

794
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 1: seen this and there's one hundred people that are like that,

795
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 1: Why are we worried about this person? But that could

796
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 1: be the one person.

797
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 2: Yes, And I think in Australia as well. You know,

798
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 2: we had a good probably wake up call last last

799
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 2: year in twenty twenty four. So obviously we had the

800
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 2: Bondi Junction attack, which was sort of separate in some ways,

801
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 2: but then there was the good chaper Church. A couple

802
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,839
Speaker 2: of weeks later, there was a young sixteen year old

803
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 2: over in Western Australia that stabbed someone at Bunnings and

804
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 2: then was killed by police. And then about six or

805
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,320
Speaker 2: seven weeks later it was either was it Paramatter or Newcastle,

806
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 2: I can't remember. Young person with a go pro tactical

807
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:07,239
Speaker 2: vest walked in with a couple of knives into politician's

808
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 2: office and fortunately they didn't go through with the attack.

809
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 2: But you know, within that space of two months, that

810
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:16,760
Speaker 2: potentially could have been four very serious mass casualty attacks.

811
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,720
Speaker 1: Young males involved in it too. What there's a reason

812
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,280
Speaker 1: so many young males seem to be the ones that

813
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 1: do these things that can be influenced.

814
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 2: Yes, it's it is very concerning, and I think there's

815
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 2: been a lot spoken about men and masculinity and where

816
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,320
Speaker 2: men at at the at the moment, a lot of

817
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 2: them are searching for identity and their their place in

818
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:49,760
Speaker 2: society and for me, when they are struggling and can't

819
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,360
Speaker 2: find a way to connect, or can't have an intimate relationship,

820
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 2: or are unsure how to cope with their mental health,

821
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 2: they're not they don't know how to communicate, can take

822
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 2: a troubling turn. And there's a lot of work I

823
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 2: think for men to do and to find pro social

824
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 2: outlets to express their challenges in the right way, because

825
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 2: it's easy to turn to blame and frustration and also

826
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 2: believe that you know others are others are responsible for

827
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,359
Speaker 2: what's happening to you, for your shortcomings and difficulties. So

828
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 2: I think there's so much that we need to be

829
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:32,240
Speaker 2: doing with men to help them improve how they handle

830
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 2: stresses and problems in their life.

831
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's in the nature of men that

832
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 1: they internalize too and not creating an environment where they

833
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:45,279
Speaker 1: can express their feelings. And yeah, I think most men

834
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,839
Speaker 1: understand this. If you're going through an issue and your

835
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 1: mate says how you go, and you say good, and

836
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 1: that's oh, that's good, mate, I was worried about you.

837
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 1: And then you move on from the conversation where if

838
00:48:55,200 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: it's and this is probably been too harsh a comparison,

839
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: and then with females it might be they talk. I

840
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 1: can put my hand up. I know my partners know

841
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: more about my friendships and life than I do. Like

842
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: your best mates just had a baby? Did he? Who've

843
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 1: told you that? Oh, Susan told me that or something

844
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: like that. So we need to communicate a little bit better,

845
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 1: don't we.

846
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:27,800
Speaker 2: Males? Unfortunately, they disproportionately make up the statistics for suicide, yeah,

847
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 2: and disproportionately make up the statistics for violent offenses. Yeah.

848
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:36,799
Speaker 1: It's not good with the work that you're doing with

849
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 1: New Zealand Police. Can you see down the track where

850
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:44,919
Speaker 1: more attention will be given to the type of work

851
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,879
Speaker 1: that you do, because quite frankly, listening to you talk

852
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 1: about your risk assessments and different things, there is so much.

853
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 2: Work to do.

854
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 1: Are we probably? I think policing. Then you don't have

855
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 1: to comment because you're still employed by police. But I

856
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 1: thought we fell behind the forensic science field in that

857
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 1: with DNA and all that, we didn't have the capability

858
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:08,280
Speaker 1: of properly examining a crime scene. We didn't properly resource

859
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 1: it with INTEL. Probably not properly resourced in your field,

860
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 1: forensic psychology do you think police are starting to understand

861
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 1: the benefits as a whole.

862
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 2: Well, look, I've got very complimentary things to say about

863
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:21,720
Speaker 2: New Zealand place.

864
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 1: So you're clever that your employees.

865
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course they're my employer. But look, I think

866
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 2: New Zealand's running a really good model which is very

867
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:35,240
Speaker 2: positive for bringing expertise in. So they have a fixated

868
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 2: Threat Assessment Center over there as well, which but that's

869
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:42,800
Speaker 2: purely for politicians, so politicians that are subject to threats

870
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 2: and being targeted. But we have our Behavioral Science Unit

871
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 2: which is very much bring specialists in for operational support.

872
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 2: So the model over there is really strong and there's

873
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 2: a recognition that for major crimes, the input or experts

874
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 2: or specialists is really one of the tools that we

875
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 2: need to solve in these. In Australia, unfortunately it has

876
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,319
Speaker 2: fawned by the way. So we had that, but many

877
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 2: of the units have closed down.

878
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 1: Fixated Persons unit that in my experience notoriously under resource,

879
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:19,800
Speaker 1: but it was something a need that we just didn't

880
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:23,760
Speaker 1: have it. We had intel officers attached to major crime

881
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 1: squads and that, but we really needed someone with the

882
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: expertise for specifically fixated persons and being able to assess

883
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: them properly.

884
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and I think it will come back again

885
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 2: because sometimes, as in policing, its money and resources that

886
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 2: dictate where things go. And look Victoria, New South Wales,

887
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 2: I think Western Australia, they all had specialist operational psychology

888
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 2: arms to them. It's only Queensland Police now that still

889
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 2: have it that I'm aware of.

890
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 1: How do we go backwards in a progressive field?

891
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 2: It is, yeah, because I look over in the UK

892
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 2: they have behavioral investigative advisors over there, so they've got

893
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:11,320
Speaker 2: specialists that are recognized and they've done some great work.

894
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 2: Over in the Canada, Royal Canadian amount of Police they've

895
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,240
Speaker 2: got a specialist behavioral unit as well. It's a mixture

896
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 2: of psychologists and psychiatrists providing operational support. FBI have four

897
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 2: dedicated units towards bringing specialty expertise in and then you

898
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 2: look across all the different US states they've got specialized

899
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 2: threat teams and things. So look, it is the model

900
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 2: for dealing with challenging and difficult cases in policing.

901
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:48,720
Speaker 1: And UK and Canada. I've worked in both those eras

902
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:51,839
Speaker 1: in policing. Inquiries from New South Wales and they're set

903
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 1: up very similar to what we've got here in Australia.

904
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 1: New Zealand's are same and they're all moving forward with

905
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,479
Speaker 1: it and we're moving backwards. Yeah.

906
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 2: One of the things that's interesting with New Zealand is

907
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:06,320
Speaker 2: it is a small place, but there's one police service

908
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,840
Speaker 2: for the country, so it's just one national unit. And

909
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 2: obviously Australia has some of the challenges on a smaller

910
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 2: scale to the US with the states at the federal level,

911
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:21,240
Speaker 2: and when it's one unit or one force for the country,

912
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 2: then you can be a little bit more focused with

913
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 2: what you're doing.

914
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 1: And we're not too bad in this country compared to America.

915
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 1: We had someone I forget who it was, that his

916
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 1: first assignment as a police officer, there was twelve people

917
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 1: in the police forces is in America and he had

918
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 1: to buy his own gun. But that was I remember

919
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 1: who it was. It was Steve Murphy from the Netflix

920
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:51,840
Speaker 1: Nacos series that took down Pablo Escobart and that was

921
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 1: his first star first police force. One of the other

922
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 1: points and we talked on fixated Persons Unit, the fixated

923
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 1: threat assessments, need for information sharing. We talked about within organizations,

924
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 1: government organizations, law enforcement agencies. But what about the public.

925
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:11,799
Speaker 1: What part can the public play in the role of

926
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 1: making sure we identify these loan actors?

927
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's some ways. It's the bystander challenges that we

928
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 2: have with crime, that people are aware of something happening,

929
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 2: but for whatever reason, it might be their own self doubt,

930
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 2: it might be that they minimize it, but they don't

931
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:34,720
Speaker 2: always report really valuable information. And ultimately preventing loan actor

932
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 2: attacks or mass casualty events is it's about information flowing

933
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 2: from members of the community through to police or that

934
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:44,880
Speaker 2: police are then able to look over it, assess it,

935
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 2: and make sense of that information. And a lot of

936
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:51,880
Speaker 2: policing is about information gathering and the public are a

937
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:55,600
Speaker 2: crucial part of that. So whether it is anything from

938
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 2: unusual activities such as suddenly being into in firearms or

939
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 2: trying to collect knives, and also at the same time,

940
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:06,760
Speaker 2: they might be saying that they're very angry with someone

941
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 2: or they've got a particular problem with this person or

942
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 2: an organization, all the way through to knowing maybe that

943
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:19,319
Speaker 2: your child is viewing some problematic and unhealthy content. So

944
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 2: may not be always going to the police, But of

945
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 2: course it's important that that information is shared with someone

946
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 2: it might be a school counselor, but sharing the information

947
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:31,719
Speaker 2: so that it's not siloed and not pocketed and allowing

948
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 2: some other eyeballs to get across that to make more

949
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 2: informed judgments about that, and then if it needs to

950
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 2: be escalated and passed on, then hopefully it does get

951
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 2: to the police.

952
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 1: Well, we do need to share that because quite often

953
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 1: when you hear of an incident and men, yeah, the

954
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 1: media have done their a bit and everyone's talking about, oh,

955
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 1: that person was always strange, it was strange ever since

956
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 1: that he went to kindergarten. All these people come out

957
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 1: and identify with that. That's the type of information that

958
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 1: we're going who has got to get across absolutely because

959
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 1: it's sharing that information. We touched on the media and

960
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 1: the copycat type situation and also about the media giving

961
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 1: too high a profile to the people that carry out

962
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:20,719
Speaker 1: these crimes. I've thought for a long time, and it's

963
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 1: hard because there's an inquiry in mind. People want to

964
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 1: find out and there's a benefit by putting the name

965
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:29,239
Speaker 1: out because if it's someone man Mimus, other people might

966
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:31,440
Speaker 1: come forward and say, well he did this and did that,

967
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:33,880
Speaker 1: so you find out more information about it, but you

968
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:36,240
Speaker 1: don't want them to be put up there on a pedestal.

969
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 1: What way do you think the media should treat someone

970
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:41,919
Speaker 1: like what happened in christ Church.

971
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:46,000
Speaker 2: I think uniform policies would be ideal.

972
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 1: So they're not competing against each other.

973
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 2: Especially across the trans Tasmin. I think we could get

974
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:55,319
Speaker 2: uniform policies that would be achievable. Where we need to

975
00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:59,399
Speaker 2: make a decision around what we will and won't publish. Now,

976
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 2: New Zealand made a really interesting decision to not publish

977
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 2: Terrence's name was he is and will be forever known

978
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:11,240
Speaker 2: as the terrorist, so he wasn't named in New Zealand.

979
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 2: Obviously it's very different within Australia. But that certainly I

980
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 2: think took the sting out of it and the power

981
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 2: of his actions and that he didn't receive the notoriety

982
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 2: and it was very much victim lens focus and that

983
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 2: is important the narratives and the survival stories of victims

984
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 2: is it's probably what we want to come out of

985
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 2: these attacks rather than it being about the perpetrator. Now

986
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 2: that's chicky because talking about the perpetrator does as you say,

987
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 2: serve some purposes where there's an understanding that we do

988
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 2: need and it generates more information. But we don't want

989
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:54,440
Speaker 2: to sensationalize that. And that's a tricky point. But I

990
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:59,240
Speaker 2: think if we make it heavily victim focused, with basic

991
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 2: details about the person rather than writing at length about

992
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 2: their motivations or their ideology, then that's a nice balance.

993
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 1: Point we might finish up here. I reckon we could

994
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 1: talk all day. I just you're a wealth of knowledge

995
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,680
Speaker 1: and you've taken me back into a world that make

996
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:22,919
Speaker 1: me appreciate how complicated it is what you're doing. You're

997
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 1: over here in Australia. Are you talking at some conferences?

998
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm at the New South Wales Correction Conference which

999
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 2: is on and also we're also running a stalking symposium

1000
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 2: with a host of guests in Melbourne as well.

1001
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:40,520
Speaker 1: Right, you work with corrective services. I haven't really touched

1002
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 1: on that. But what can you learn from people in prison?

1003
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:47,880
Speaker 2: Oh? An enormous amount. I mean, we have individuals that

1004
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 2: are there for lengthy stints in custody and there's always

1005
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 2: the temptation to go, let's just lock them up, forget

1006
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 2: about them and not go and talk to them. And

1007
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 2: by talking to them and in engaging with them, first

1008
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 2: of all, we gain a rich amount of insight from

1009
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 2: their stories and their motivations and their reasons and their

1010
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 2: pathways to carrying out their active violence. We think can

1011
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 2: then improve our responses by learning about that. Now, the

1012
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 2: other side, of course, is rehabilitating them as well. Do

1013
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 2: we want to put the time and resources into them?

1014
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 2: And I think it's somewhat negligent if we don't go

1015
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 2: through the process of at least trying, and certainly in

1016
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 2: the lone active space, we've seen where some things have

1017
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:36,400
Speaker 2: gone wrong for various reasons, that people have been held

1018
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 2: on remand for long periods and they haven't had treatment,

1019
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:42,520
Speaker 2: and then they've come out and they've committed a mass attack.

1020
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:47,439
Speaker 2: So that's a whole different landscape. But probably my key

1021
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 2: takeaway is that we shouldn't just lock people up and

1022
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 2: forget that they're there. There's a lot of value for

1023
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:56,680
Speaker 2: various reasons to engage with them.

1024
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:02,720
Speaker 1: That makes sense. Can we do radicalized people like young people?

1025
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:06,000
Speaker 1: That doesn't have to be age based, but can you

1026
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 1: deradicalize someone with the proper proper work.

1027
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 2: You think de radicalization is an interesting one. It's topical

1028
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 2: and controversial. The UK has probably had the most challenging

1029
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:26,120
Speaker 2: implications of that. So there was big efforts to deradicalize

1030
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:27,520
Speaker 2: people in the UK and a lot of the de

1031
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:32,880
Speaker 2: radicalization programs were emerged from there and they made their

1032
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 2: way over to Australia and New Zealand and we've kind

1033
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 2: of learned that de radicalization programs don't work right. But

1034
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 2: part of that is they were brought out during a

1035
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:45,200
Speaker 2: time when it was all Islamic inspired violence or Gihardi

1036
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 2: inspired violence. A couple of years later it had evolved

1037
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:51,080
Speaker 2: and then it was right wing violence, and then it

1038
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:55,320
Speaker 2: was grievance based violence. So the fundamentals of a lot

1039
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 2: of the de radicalization process assume that it was just

1040
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:03,920
Speaker 2: ideology that was causing violence, when actually maybe ideology was

1041
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:06,440
Speaker 2: only the top layer of the problem and it didn't

1042
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 2: get to the core reasons that the person was becoming violent.

1043
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:12,400
Speaker 2: So I think we need to take a few steps

1044
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:15,400
Speaker 2: back and ask the questions of really around you know,

1045
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 2: why was violence a solution for this person? How did

1046
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 2: they start on the pathway to violence? So try and

1047
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:25,520
Speaker 2: get to some of the core things rather than going okay,

1048
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 2: they just need to deradicalize and change these unhealthy and

1049
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:31,440
Speaker 2: problematic beliefs.

1050
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 1: Well, you haven't disappointed me, because like every psychologist I

1051
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:41,840
Speaker 1: speak to, there's always an if or but or maybe

1052
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:45,560
Speaker 1: but yeah, that's I bring it back to Sarah. She

1053
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:48,040
Speaker 1: would always yeah, that might be the case, but it

1054
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 1: could be this, and just can you give me a

1055
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:51,400
Speaker 1: yes or not? No, I can't give you a yes

1056
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:54,840
Speaker 1: or note. But I like the way you mind thinks

1057
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:58,680
Speaker 1: and the work you're doing, and I think it's important work.

1058
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:01,440
Speaker 1: And I thank you so much for taking time out

1059
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 1: of your busy schedule to come into the studio and

1060
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:07,000
Speaker 1: talk to us today. And I thoroughly recommend your book

1061
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:11,439
Speaker 1: mass Casually The Rise of Loan Actors so interesting. Really,

1062
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:12,840
Speaker 1: where can people get it if they want it?

1063
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 2: So? It's available obviously on Amazon and online bookstores. It'll

1064
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:22,920
Speaker 2: be Barnes and Noble overseas and shortly in bookstores here

1065
01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 2: and also on the publisher's website, Groundproof Forensics dot com.

1066
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:31,080
Speaker 1: Very good if people want to get in contact with you,

1067
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:33,000
Speaker 1: and you don't have to answer this because you might

1068
01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:35,880
Speaker 1: get inundated, But if people wanted to reach out to

1069
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:37,120
Speaker 1: how could they reach out?

1070
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:40,720
Speaker 2: There? So I do private consulting works so doctor Nathan

1071
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 2: Brooks dot com as well.

1072
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:46,040
Speaker 1: Okay, thanks very much for coming on. I've enjoyed the chat.

1073
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me Gary. Cheers