Speaker 1: Approache Production. Welcome to Secrets of the Underworld. I am
Speaker 1: Neil the Muscle comments and in this episode I speak
Speaker 1: with former Underweld figure and standover man Jay mal Kuhn.
Speaker 2: We preferred not to kill you. We will do it,
Speaker 2: but we won't be happy about it. But you know
Speaker 2: the consequences being in jail to you, I said, committee,
Speaker 2: you must pay. It isn't a fucking around him. I'm
Speaker 2: not leaving without my money. But to get a taser
Speaker 2: and knife, some gaffer tape, and I had to turn
Speaker 2: nothing into a weapon. So if anyone was going to
Speaker 2: have a problem, that would have been there, not me.
Speaker 2: There's nothing more rewarded than not in some.
Speaker 3: Jay, thank you for coming in.
Speaker 1: Thanks having me when I when I seen your book
Speaker 1: come out, I wanted to approach you, and I thought
Speaker 1: I'd let you do your thing first because you are
Speaker 1: promoting it and I'm glad. I was reached out by
Speaker 1: one of your friends and he wanted to get me
Speaker 1: to get you on my show, and I was.
Speaker 3: I was keen as to get you on. But we'll
Speaker 3: start off.
Speaker 1: With you as a person before all all the heavy
Speaker 1: ship that happened, but you growing up and tell me
Speaker 1: about you, and then we'll get into the nitty gritty
Speaker 1: of everything.
Speaker 2: Oh it's not that exciting, believe me, it will be.
Speaker 2: But you know, we grew up in the housing commision area.
Speaker 2: All the parents were all the kids were left to
Speaker 2: run a mark. Most families had four to six to
Speaker 2: ten kids, predominantly boys, and I know we all played up.
Speaker 2: I wasn't any I wasn't unique. I was just one
Speaker 2: of many. I used to have to run home when
Speaker 2: I was younger to avoid getting bashed. So I discovered
Speaker 2: that you can bash back. Wow. Yeah, And it happened
Speaker 2: one day. There were two of us running and avoid
Speaker 2: a little gang, and he got left behind. Go on.
Speaker 2: I think that must have been about nine. So I
Speaker 2: ran back and picked up it. They used to have
Speaker 2: house These have trees in front of every home, and
Speaker 2: these pickets told them together and there was one lane
Speaker 2: on the ground. So I just slipped that up and
Speaker 2: fucking attacked him with it. I got an amazing response.
Speaker 2: They shot himselves and around. I discovered that you can
Speaker 2: fight back.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was great, very liberating.
Speaker 1: What did you grow?
Speaker 2: Reservoir? Patridge Prison was full of kids from Reservoir and
Speaker 2: Coburg literally full of them. Valley Street, Winter Crescent was
Speaker 2: all always banging on. You know. My dad used to
Speaker 2: stand at the front of the at that gate, waiting
Speaker 2: for us to come home, to see if we had
Speaker 2: fights and torn clothes and bloodied and if we were
Speaker 2: we were in trouble. If we came home normal, we
Speaker 2: were okay. He didn't like, he didn't condone us playing up.
Speaker 2: But no, it was just it was just the environment
Speaker 2: schooling for you. I struggled. I started when I went
Speaker 2: to school when I started schooling and speak English, so
Speaker 2: I struggled, always struggled. But I mean I enjoyed it.
Speaker 2: I went to every class even though I couldn't really
Speaker 2: read well, I'd still stood up in the class and
Speaker 2: did my best. I was never embarrassed to humiliated. I
Speaker 2: just did my best. I guess I didn't know any better.
Speaker 2: What was it?
Speaker 1: What was your goal when your left school?
Speaker 3: What did you want?
Speaker 2: To be a policeman?
Speaker 1: Really?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Fuck me?
Speaker 3: Yeah that doesn't saying around.
Speaker 2: Yeah No, I actually applied to be a cup when
Speaker 2: I was seventeen and I couldn't fill up the phone properly,
Speaker 2: so I was rejected.
Speaker 1: So that's that's all stopped you. Otherwise would have been
Speaker 1: a cop.
Speaker 2: Probably would have been a crup cup. That would have
Speaker 2: been a cop. I would have fucked that ship up right,
Speaker 2: give me your money, don't tell me.
Speaker 1: One fucked up. I didn't know that.
Speaker 2: No, I don't know. It's a vass. But that was
Speaker 2: actually my first application. It was like the when when
Speaker 2: you were at that age, there wasn't many options. Was
Speaker 2: if you're academically not right, you can't you know, you're
Speaker 2: not going to be an accountant or a lawyer, or
Speaker 2: you're they're going to drive a fucking bus or apply
Speaker 2: for something that you may you maybe be good at.
Speaker 2: So I thought just trying the police force that I
Speaker 2: think I was just seventeen at the time. That paperwork,
Speaker 2: and I was promptly rejected, and.
Speaker 3: You didn't want to apply again. You just forgot it.
Speaker 2: That Nah, that was just tick that box and move on.
Speaker 1: Is that was that what you thought after that?
Speaker 2: Not at all? Look, I never I was. I was
Speaker 2: really a good kid mate like became My parents were
Speaker 2: really good without religious people and right from wrong and
Speaker 2: don't steal and don't take what's not your usual. That
Speaker 2: was that's how we all were. Yeah, I fell into
Speaker 2: crime because I just did you know, it happened to
Speaker 2: be at the right place or the wrong place at
Speaker 2: the right time, at the wrong time, and I made
Speaker 2: a decision. I went that way.
Speaker 1: How how did your parents feel when they when they
Speaker 1: know that you were involved in the underworld and that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff, did they did they change towards you?
Speaker 2: No? No, they didn't know you kept a secret phone.
Speaker 2: It wasn't It wasn't a regular activity. It was very rare.
Speaker 2: It wasn't like, but.
Speaker 3: Where do we get around that?
Speaker 1: What you know, what your son's doing? This is who
Speaker 1: your son's hanging around with?
Speaker 2: That there wasn't. I wasn't hanging out with anyone. I
Speaker 2: was hooked in with the triads. Rides were overseas. My
Speaker 2: contacts were in Sydney. I lived in Melbourne. I drove
Speaker 2: lumpy cars. Because I developed a property at the edge
Speaker 2: of twenty, I entus strayed at twenty one. I I
Speaker 2: validated what I was my spending. I justified it so sweet.
Speaker 2: I was a little fucking on entrepreneur. My parents are
Speaker 2: very proud.
Speaker 1: So okay, so you've got them back from police. So
Speaker 1: what what? What was your next line to go down? Where
Speaker 1: did you go from me?
Speaker 2: At that time I was I had started doing training
Speaker 2: take one day, at the edge of five. We were
Speaker 2: like they were the Bruce Ley days. Me and the
Speaker 2: rest of the world were taken about Bruce Ley. We
Speaker 2: all wanted to be Bruce Lay. I wanted to be
Speaker 2: band Wow. Yeah, of course younger than me. That So
Speaker 2: when I was sixth day and I met the Lacey brothers.
Speaker 2: There were twin brothers from Hong Kong and they had
Speaker 2: an academy in Perth. They wanted to open up in
Speaker 2: Melbourne and somebody introduced me to them. We started training
Speaker 2: in the park every day. So at that age I
Speaker 2: was right into martial arts and I was training to
Speaker 2: fight in the sixth International Martial Arts Invitation Tournament in Macau,
Speaker 2: so that that totally consumed me. So we did that.
Speaker 2: That's when I when I turned Just before I turned
Speaker 2: out in there was a bit of a hiccup with
Speaker 2: a gun and some lebows and some bouncers that I diffused.
Speaker 2: Just that I just happened to be there and the
Speaker 2: security offered me a job and so I started doing
Speaker 2: store work, which was great. Yourself, there's nothing more rewarding
Speaker 2: than looking some catch out.
Speaker 1: I usually go to work to hope and I was
Speaker 1: going to knock somebody up. That's what you used to
Speaker 1: go to work for it. It was like he'll give
Speaker 1: you a high.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean, You're to be trouble.
Speaker 2: I loved it. I was like, fuck girls and fucking
Speaker 2: comes out. I'd go home and play in bed under
Speaker 2: we live it in my head. I did by public.
Speaker 2: I worked at very rough places, so it was on
Speaker 2: all night. It would be fucking You'd have at least
Speaker 2: three or four dust ups, probably be up to eight.
Speaker 2: And it was really good. We loved it. And I
Speaker 2: worked with really good blokes, really good solid blakes that
Speaker 2: could bang it on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, some working the How long did you went the doors.
Speaker 2: For until I discovered money? Eighten to twenty?
Speaker 3: So what came first?
Speaker 2: You like?
Speaker 1: Did did the motorcycle game come first?
Speaker 3: After this? What came from? Where? Where did that come from?
Speaker 2: Now? The minorcycle came way after this? Like we had
Speaker 2: bouncing coat dealing person for ten years, got out, then
Speaker 2: we had the underworld killings for about ten years. Then
Speaker 2: I got hooked into some mining groups. Seen that has
Speaker 2: some big problems. So it was resolving, and they they
Speaker 2: kept me on full time and then we did the
Speaker 2: biking stuff. I was up with them for five years
Speaker 2: and then I jumped up with the commos. Yeah, well
Speaker 2: I still looked after the mining goes.
Speaker 3: You went to the corporate world of money for what.
Speaker 2: Okay, So this is what happened. A friend of mine
Speaker 2: is in the book. He had a little problem with
Speaker 2: some coffin cheatters in perth Yep. So he called me
Speaker 2: up and said, ah, what do we do. I said,
Speaker 2: let's get on a plane and go and see him. Brother.
Speaker 2: So he rang out there mutual in Perth ye and
Speaker 2: said we're coming in the morning, going to sort this
Speaker 2: shit out because I wanted their way to break his
Speaker 2: legs apparently and anyway, and then you know, I got
Speaker 2: involved and it was diffused quite quickly, and he was
Speaker 2: very he's very successful dude, and he's very willing too.
Speaker 2: By the way, he didn't he didn't actually need me.
Speaker 2: He could stand on his own two feed, but was
Speaker 2: a lot easier with me. And he's back in this corner.
Speaker 2: So from there he wanted me to go on tour
Speaker 2: with him, because although the problem was solved, that wasn't
Speaker 2: completely solved. He wanted to be close by, so we
Speaker 2: went to London where we met his partner. His partner
Speaker 2: had a similar problem with the coffin cheaters, but this
Speaker 2: was a two hunch, a mean dollar problem, right, and
Speaker 2: my mother may goes, well, let ja sort it out.
Speaker 2: And this is my first exposure to this sort of money.
Speaker 2: And these kinds were getting fucking drunk one hunter old
Speaker 2: Scotch and to be honest that there wasn't paying that
Speaker 2: much fucking attention. But you know, my mate said, let
Speaker 2: him sort of that. He goes, oh, can he do it?
Speaker 2: He goes, yeah, of course you can. And then my
Speaker 2: mate asked me, got draw up a little one pager
Speaker 2: saying for services as requested a million dollars cash or
Speaker 2: US dollars and sixteen million shares and sixty men uppies
Speaker 2: to resolve this issue. The shares were training at seventy
Speaker 2: two cents at the time. It was about a seven
Speaker 2: eight million dollars deal. Said quickly, taps up in the
Speaker 2: business center, hands it to him. He fucking through it
Speaker 2: out the window. He was drunk at The window was
Speaker 2: a balcony, so my mate jumped out the window and
Speaker 2: grabbed it and gave it back to him, so he
Speaker 2: signed it and off he went. He transferred the me
Speaker 2: into his account, which I saw part of. By the way,
Speaker 2: he was getting half everything. And then I flew the
Speaker 2: Perth and caught up with the cheats who are mate's
Speaker 2: of mine, and another fellow over there, junk is On,
Speaker 2: and we worked it out. It was all resolved. I
Speaker 2: got paid.
Speaker 1: So so now have you already got that reputation already
Speaker 1: for who you you are?
Speaker 2: Well? The thing is, I was incarcerated in Pantridge for
Speaker 2: ten years. It's a make some security for yeah. Out
Speaker 2: of that ten years, I probably did nine months out
Speaker 2: in other jails. They couldn't they couldn't have come at
Speaker 2: me anywhere else. So I did have and know I
Speaker 2: was known. I was known. You know, we did things.
Speaker 2: You'd have to do things. You know, you got to
Speaker 2: tool up and you gotta you can't sit on the fence.
Speaker 2: If someone sucking around, you just have to put a
Speaker 2: hold on them, you know how it is. Right, So
Speaker 2: by the time I got out of prison, I was
Speaker 2: very well known. So it was it wasn't hard for
Speaker 2: me to get things, get people to agree or comply.
Speaker 3: It's still not yeah, you still got that power.
Speaker 2: We do all right now.
Speaker 1: When you were in Penbridge jail, there is there is
Speaker 1: a kind of quote there that you did some deal
Speaker 1: with chop a read.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it wasn't a deal. It was going to knock
Speaker 2: some can some deal. It's just doing work, bro So
Speaker 2: who you going to know? We're at war for about
Speaker 2: seven years with a different team. And yeah, they come
Speaker 2: and they go. When you can get your hands on him,
Speaker 2: to get your hands on them. Like one particular time,
Speaker 2: I was in another prison, another maximum security prison, and
Speaker 2: one of them came back through the system, and I
Speaker 2: had a friend of mine in that division. So I
Speaker 2: rang my lawyer, the PA, I said, ring the prison
Speaker 2: and ask him to give Lenny a message to call
Speaker 2: this lawyer at one o'clock and give your number, which
Speaker 2: she did, and then I drank at one o'clock and
Speaker 2: she joined us, and I said, Lenny, this counts in
Speaker 2: your division, broke and sort him out. So lennenly promptly
Speaker 2: went and got a big fucking bit of steal and
Speaker 2: ran in the cell and iron barred him. You get
Speaker 2: shit done. This other count who was in the system,
Speaker 2: but he was in Chopper's water h division can't get
Speaker 2: to him, impossible to get to him. They get one
Speaker 2: hour exercise a day. But I had a plan. I
Speaker 2: wanted to muck this camp chopper gives him their milk
Speaker 2: in their breakfasts and their food every day. He was
Speaker 2: the billet so and I need the kitchen staff. So
Speaker 2: we got some poison to put in the milk to
Speaker 2: deliver to him. They can't have relied on to get
Speaker 2: the poison. Got us a dad. So the whole thing
Speaker 2: didn't work. But we did it. We actually we actually
Speaker 2: did it. Just didn't work, you know as it well
Speaker 2: as a way blood.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the times that you've been in there, the
Speaker 1: likes of like Chop I Red. You just spoke about
Speaker 1: Carl when he was in the mccallo. Were you around
Speaker 1: it and when all the all the ship was happening
Speaker 1: at that time in Melbourne or you were you out
Speaker 1: of there and doing other things?
Speaker 2: We mean when they're all the births getting knocked. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but that was the ti tat thing going on. But
Speaker 2: didn't involve you, No, No, he kept out of it. Well,
Speaker 2: nothing to do with me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you didn't get no one tried to draw
Speaker 1: you in.
Speaker 2: I look someone asked me to do something, to get involved,
Speaker 2: but I knew both sides. Yeah, so I just stayed
Speaker 2: sat on the fence, but not my business. I knew
Speaker 2: a lot of those guys that were and we're good blogs,
Speaker 2: I mean most of them. But that is what it is.
Speaker 2: You know, you live by the swords.
Speaker 1: You've seen Sydney and you've seen Melbourne. You've been probably
Speaker 1: over states too. Who do you think I'm gonna I'm
Speaker 1: gonna say this the real deal, the real you've got.
Speaker 3: You've got a lot of.
Speaker 1: Underworld in different states here, all right, who's the real deal?
Speaker 2: This is a tricky question because anyone could pay someone
Speaker 2: of these unber.
Speaker 1: Yeah I understand that, but but that But you know,
Speaker 1: you see what's going on in Melbourne, you see what's
Speaker 1: going on Sydney. You can see what goes on in
Speaker 1: over States. But you know, I look at it and
Speaker 1: go like, fuck, Melbourne's.
Speaker 2: Pretty harsh, you know what I mean, We bang it on,
Speaker 2: bang it on here. I mean they're very quick to
Speaker 2: react here. If I have to compare, i'd say Sydney
Speaker 2: more reactive, definitely, most Like they don't fuck around here
Speaker 2: in Melbourne. Nine times out of tennant can be resolved
Speaker 2: again is probably the last option. But here they're just
Speaker 2: sure they don't fuck around here.
Speaker 1: But you think you think, you think the old school
Speaker 1: system's gone.
Speaker 2: Now everything evolves, you know, we've gone from black and
Speaker 2: white to color. Yeah, everything evolves even now, Like the
Speaker 2: amount of money evolved is massive as the how do
Speaker 2: you resist that? Yeah, the earth of these young guys
Speaker 2: that are you know, come from not much offered a
Speaker 2: men or two to do it quicker, and I mean
Speaker 2: it's very hard to and all these kids are willing
Speaker 2: for some real I think all this exposure to the
Speaker 2: Internet and all this exposure of violence on your phone,
Speaker 2: they're sort of numbing people to consequences and the reality
Speaker 2: of what's going on. I was never exposed to that,
Speaker 2: so I can't imagine what this youth are going through
Speaker 2: and how they're dealing with it. I suppose you they
Speaker 2: embrace it where you shy away from it. But Sydney
Speaker 2: is definitely a very serious date. I'd have to say,
Speaker 2: if you're going to compare to answer that question, the
Speaker 2: real the realer deal would have to be Sydney. You
Speaker 2: go to the Winners West. We admit it. We prefer
Speaker 2: not to kill you. We will do it. We won't
Speaker 2: be happy about it.
Speaker 3: You also liked God Honor.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, my first club when I was twenty twenty
Speaker 2: three was that I loved it a lot of fun. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Was it just that, I think at the time to
Speaker 1: get into the night life scene or would you not
Speaker 1: get into it now?
Speaker 2: No, the thing was because I started security today changing anything.
Speaker 2: I actually knew anything. I understood well, I understood the door,
Speaker 2: comparing it under there was money out of the bar,
Speaker 2: and you could make money from night club so I'd
Speaker 2: worked in them for a couple of years, so there
Speaker 2: was a natural progression for us. And it wasn't it.
Speaker 2: I wasn't just me as my brothers and we all
Speaker 2: chipped in. We didn't have It wasn't big money. It
Speaker 2: was like us eighty ninety thousand dollars for a club.
Speaker 2: We spent about fifty renovating it. But back then it
Speaker 2: was a lot of money, but not like here now
Speaker 2: now you couldn't even get a fucking front door for
Speaker 2: that money. But for us it was good. I mean,
Speaker 2: like you have to appreciate we didn't come from anything.
Speaker 2: We had no money, so to have a couple hundred
Speaker 2: grand was significant when we worked. But we worked hard
Speaker 2: even after I played for eighteen months two years on
Speaker 2: occasion whenever was available. We didn't We didn't make millions
Speaker 2: of dollars. We made money, but then we worked that
Speaker 2: money and made more money. So I'm saying that I
Speaker 2: told you earlier. I owned the street. I used my
Speaker 2: forty thousand dollars that I earned as a deposit, and
Speaker 2: I pre sold some of the sales some of the
Speaker 2: land to develop it, and that's how and then I
Speaker 2: sold some wine paid the remainderud and that's how I
Speaker 2: developed it. I didn't go and pay five hundred thousand cash.
Speaker 1: But was it hard for you because of your name
Speaker 1: not to get harassed by the police?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: And to show where you got things from? Were they
Speaker 1: always on your case?
Speaker 2: Not a lot? Back in the day. No, there was
Speaker 2: no technology. When I went for the liquor license, I
Speaker 2: had to go and be interviewed by the guy that
Speaker 2: was in charge of that. He was an attain who
Speaker 2: spoke broken English and the Batam. He said to me,
Speaker 2: have you killed anyone in the past six months? I
Speaker 2: said it was joking, I said, I said, no, you guys,
Speaker 2: granted I'm not even joking. That's how easy it was.
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, now, good luck.
Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to get I want to I want
Speaker 1: to talk about because you just you brought your brother
Speaker 1: up and that and I've seen that there was a
Speaker 1: there was a few cutouts in the papers that back
Speaker 1: in the nineties, nineteen nineties that you were convicted for
Speaker 1: Victoria's largest heroin bust back then.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, back then it was huge. Yeah, that's one
Speaker 2: point five killers. There was significant back then.
Speaker 1: What made you get into that? Like into that did?
Speaker 2: It?
Speaker 3: Was just money? You wanted to make dollars? What was
Speaker 3: it now?
Speaker 2: I was fighting in Hong Kong and before I landed,
Speaker 2: I was sick as I took off, and I think
Speaker 2: the altitude name me really really out well by the
Speaker 2: time I landed and I was staying with my Grandmaster,
Speaker 2: who was head of the triads back the Yeah, very
Speaker 2: significant person, and they because I was sweating and shivering,
Speaker 2: I thought I was a heroin addict and the awfered
Speaker 2: me heroin. So when I came back to Melbourne, I
Speaker 2: was with the boys saying why I couldn't fight and
Speaker 2: told the story just as I told you. One of
Speaker 2: them popped up, So can you get some? I said,
Speaker 2: I don't know, I'll ask, So next time my tongue,
Speaker 2: I asked, And then I get a phone call A
Speaker 2: few months later someone was pounds. It wasn't leaving Killows
Speaker 2: had a pound and he had a price, and I
Speaker 2: told him. He said, yes, I got it, and I
Speaker 2: gave it to him. I'd never been exposed to drugs
Speaker 2: prior to that. I mean, I knew that naughty, yeah,
Speaker 2: but I didn't appreciate the significance of how bad they
Speaker 2: were and the actual consequences. Plus you, now, I thought
Speaker 2: you if you caught red handed and didn't understand this
Speaker 2: whole conspiracy ship. So I packed it in, fucked off
Speaker 2: the perth, I board the club went away from that ship.
Speaker 2: But apparently there's not enough. Do you ever regret that
Speaker 2: packing it in?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I don't know what would have happened if I wasn't
Speaker 2: exposed to it. Like it's a That really was the
Speaker 2: beginning of my success financially, and it was a huge
Speaker 2: learning curve for me, and even being incarcerated, I learned
Speaker 2: a lot being in jail. So I regret the actions
Speaker 2: of my crime, but you know, the consequences being in
Speaker 2: jail ten yures. Now, couldn't you a fact? Like, it's
Speaker 2: just it's just life. We're still alive, We're still doing ship.
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 3: Going back to jail, Like, what was it?
Speaker 2: How?
Speaker 1: How was that going in for the when you first
Speaker 1: went into jail? How was that for you? You're you're working
Speaker 1: your way up to be somebody and you ask somebody.
Speaker 1: You're known on the streets, you're knowing it, where you're living.
Speaker 2: Who you are.
Speaker 1: But to go into jail for the first time in
Speaker 1: your life, how did that feel to you? It was
Speaker 1: it scared? You give a fuck? Were you known as
Speaker 1: you walked in? Were you greeted by people that you
Speaker 1: mat in it? How? What was the time like in
Speaker 1: it for the first time you went in?
Speaker 2: Yeah, like the fucking welcoming reception When I got there,
Speaker 2: it was a big It was a big deal. There's
Speaker 2: a lot of news coverage, and like I said, Coburger
Speaker 2: metz Or, most of the tenants were from my area,
Speaker 2: so I knew a lot of people that was in jail.
Speaker 2: I wasn't scared. There's nothing to be scared of unless
Speaker 2: you're a fuck with You really have nothing to fear
Speaker 2: carry self, well, mind your own business. Don't have to
Speaker 2: fear with anyone's business. You're going to be okay. But
Speaker 2: you know, if you're an idiot, you're going to fall
Speaker 2: into a whole. But no, I was it definitely wasn't scared.
Speaker 2: I was a bit frustrated. Look, this is the thing.
Speaker 2: You don't have time to feel sorry for yourself or
Speaker 2: to worry about shit. You've got a big battle ahead
Speaker 2: of you. It's you against them, the public prosecution, and
Speaker 2: you have to sort through all your fucking paperwork, which
Speaker 2: was mine was tenfolders. It was ridiculous, right, So you
Speaker 2: just focused on the battle ahead of you. Yeah, Jael's cool,
Speaker 2: man like, it's not cool, but it's a reflection on
Speaker 2: society with blokes. You have a laugh, your ege, you sleep,
Speaker 2: your work, you get on with it like it's not
Speaker 2: the end of the world.
Speaker 3: How did your parents react to it?
Speaker 2: Yeah they were devastated, of course, but I mean they're
Speaker 2: called that their reaction there is a reflection of my reaction.
Speaker 2: As long as I was cool, they were cool, It
Speaker 2: was okay. The screws were fucking terrified of us, rightly, so,
Speaker 2: so they get greeted with respect. They were never disrespected,
Speaker 2: and it was all good. If they ever played up
Speaker 2: they got We went on with it inside and outside,
Speaker 2: and they fucking knew that. We didn't interfere with anyone.
Speaker 2: There's nothing to run, bro, you have problems with people,
Speaker 2: you sort them out. You know what is there to run?
Speaker 2: Unless you're fucking trafficking in jail, which I was not.
Speaker 2: What is that to fucking run? Yeah? The objective he has
Speaker 2: to get through every day without being cut. That's it.
Speaker 2: There's lots of crews. There's this handful of proper alpha
Speaker 2: men and they all mind their own business. The rest
Speaker 2: of the little fucking runners go stab that come. I
Speaker 2: get that.
Speaker 1: So when you when you got when you got out,
Speaker 1: what was your objective when you got out?
Speaker 2: Make money? Money's power. I was very lucky when I
Speaker 2: got out. Within weeks, I got a phone call from
Speaker 2: It's like a gift from God. I got a phone
Speaker 2: call from some company saying that we go through dormant
Speaker 2: companies that have been forgotten and when they have assets
Speaker 2: in them, for a fee, we'll recover them for you
Speaker 2: a spy, and then you're the director of this company.
Speaker 2: I said, yeah, I am. They said well, that's a
Speaker 2: significant amount of money there, which like has to recovered us. Yes,
Speaker 2: I would, and I did, and I already had a
Speaker 2: few hundred thousand dollars off the bat and from there
Speaker 2: a friend of mine from Perth, Charlie Jiglio and Jack
Speaker 2: Regal had secured the tour of Andrea per Chari the
Speaker 2: first time in Australia, the blind oper singer. Yeah, muked
Speaker 2: to the conductor and tea a la scala at the ballet.
Speaker 2: But before they would sign contracts, they wanted to tour
Speaker 2: the country to check out the hotels and the venues
Speaker 2: I think predominantly for Andre. And then needed eighty grand
Speaker 2: and Charlie said, would you be interested? I like Charlie,
Speaker 2: Charlie is as honest as the day is long. I
Speaker 2: said sure, he said, but it's not guaranteed. That's no problem.
Speaker 2: So I transferred to eighty thousand. They did their business
Speaker 2: and we secured the tour. Then we on sold that
Speaker 2: to IMG because it was too big for us, too
Speaker 2: big for them, Yeah, and we retained thirty three percent
Speaker 2: or thirty six percent, so I retained twelve percent. And
Speaker 2: then they did the tours very successful, and then Jack
Speaker 2: regally attain ran off with the money to Monte Carlo.
Speaker 2: I check you right, fucking hell, you have the bulls
Speaker 2: to do that. No, I got it, well, you got it.
Speaker 2: Of course he was going nowhere. I jumped on the plane.
Speaker 2: When we first had to deal with imj we recovered.
Speaker 2: I recovered the money that I invested, everyone had recovered instantly,
Speaker 2: and then the profit share he took he ran away with.
Speaker 2: So I said to Charlie, we're in Jack and tell
Speaker 2: him I've got a couple of men that I want
Speaker 2: to put the park somewhere. I had to flush him
Speaker 2: out discount and to book my hotel. I'm coming over
Speaker 2: to Monte Carlo, I said, yeah, So he did. So
Speaker 2: I flew in there and he had two bodyguards and
Speaker 2: attained an English guy and they buckled really quick. So
Speaker 2: he got a big smack and then he disappeared. When
Speaker 2: I got his English bodyguard to take me to his house,
Speaker 2: and I jumped the fence, broke in, checked it all out.
Speaker 2: He wasn't there, just you know, a little map, bedroom, kitchen,
Speaker 2: excess entries, weapons in and out, the usual ship. They're
Speaker 2: not going to take me up the road to like
Speaker 2: a store, to get a taser, a knife, some gaffe tape, right.
Speaker 2: I knew he was going to report to Jack. And
Speaker 2: then I get a phone call from New York from
Speaker 2: another retain, Sam bar. He's invested, We've got a lot
Speaker 2: of money and tied up with his caunt. He really
Speaker 2: can't do what you're going to do. I said, yes,
Speaker 2: I can. I guess can you just wait until tomorrow.
Speaker 2: I'm going to fry in. This is Peter. Yeah. So
Speaker 2: Peter flew in and we had a chat and he
Speaker 2: he said he'll pay it. I said, he shure, Pete.
Speaker 2: I was like, no, will pay it? I said, but committee,
Speaker 2: he must pay it. Here's no fucking around him. I'm
Speaker 2: not leaving without my money. He has now will paid
Speaker 2: come to Perth next week. He's from Perth and before
Speaker 2: and he did. So I went to Perth and got paid.
Speaker 2: That's you know that story? What hell? But you say
Speaker 2: what I did there? That was theater. I was never
Speaker 2: going to kill him. I wasn't gonna do job for
Speaker 2: this camp. Who was theater for the bodyguard. I knew
Speaker 2: the bodyguard is going to report the camp and I
Speaker 2: was very serious about it. And that's very aggressive.
Speaker 3: Did you always go alone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, always around solid. You did not have to get
Speaker 2: rid of any witnesses. So I was very aggressive, very sincere.
Speaker 2: You know, a lot of it was theater, So I
Speaker 2: knew he was going to report back to this count.
Speaker 2: He was going to assumemself either it was going to pay,
Speaker 2: who was going to fucking pay? Or never come back again.
Speaker 2: And that's how I got my result in that particular instance.
Speaker 1: How do you know what you're getting yourself into. If
Speaker 1: you're going over to another country, or you going to
Speaker 1: find someone you don't know who's there, you just you
Speaker 1: do you stake out you just know them, or you're
Speaker 1: just you're going by instin I knew.
Speaker 2: I was surprised you had two bodyguards, to be honest
Speaker 2: to do but it's such a flop his bodyguards or
Speaker 2: flops as well. But you know, you just got I
Speaker 2: knew my environment. I had a fair understanding of what
Speaker 2: I was getting into, and my capacity back then was
Speaker 2: far superior to their. You know, I lived in the
Speaker 2: jungle for ten years, but you know, I know how
Speaker 2: to get it on. I don't know what to look for.
Speaker 2: I know how to turn nothing into a weapon. So
Speaker 2: if anyone was gonna have a problem. Would have been
Speaker 2: damned not me.
Speaker 1: Tell me about the time you came to because I
Speaker 1: had a little giggle when I've seen this one when
Speaker 1: he came to Double Bai and there's a security contract
Speaker 1: off for grabs.
Speaker 2: Yes, I get a call from kids on I think
Speaker 2: there was a big fight on in said at the time,
Speaker 2: he said this a couple of boys whenever chat listen
Speaker 2: nearing that problem, and it was twenty five John B
Speaker 2: mcanty and Copper. I'd rudge them made if there was.
Speaker 2: If we were being watched, that was a very colorful table.
Speaker 2: So I had no idea what I was going to
Speaker 2: getting into. So I had another guy with me. I
Speaker 2: had dropped me here and stay here. But you can
Speaker 2: see the line aside, and he was toold up obviously.
Speaker 2: I said, if I start scratching my head, just coming
Speaker 2: shooting right, and.
Speaker 1: I for sure you yeah, yeah, if.
Speaker 2: I scratched my head, that made just guns involved on
Speaker 2: my arms. I just come in and just wave that
Speaker 2: around and lit if you're going out, and then we'll
Speaker 2: work it out as we go. So he stayed, he
Speaker 2: sat off and just watched. Anyway, so we get there
Speaker 2: meet great. I didn't know any of those guys except
Speaker 2: for John. I had met Troy before. Actually, when I
Speaker 2: first got out of jail, I was in Perth with
Speaker 2: Gregory Roberts and they threw a knight on for us.
Speaker 2: He was he was only a non back then before
Speaker 2: he grew the ranks, and he ran the ball for
Speaker 2: him a lot. You know. It turned out there was
Speaker 2: all they just because we're gonna havepen up Strip club
Speaker 2: in Queensland and they ran they ran security there and
Speaker 2: they want to know if that they can get the security.
Speaker 2: We didn't. We didn't end up taking it. We're going
Speaker 2: to buy one there and turn into a spermit rhiner.
Speaker 2: We had the one in Melbourne. I was involved in
Speaker 2: the one in Melbourne. I took that.
Speaker 1: Is there anything you haven't taken?
Speaker 2: That rude? But you got to can't be disrespectful. And
Speaker 2: I think you come in my fucking world and carry
Speaker 2: like a count, you're gonna get treated like a count.
Speaker 2: I didn't treat them like account They treated men like
Speaker 2: a count. So come in here we go. So they
Speaker 2: to pay him and I had cans ringing me. I
Speaker 2: was in London one day the count NaN's fucking Lamborghini
Speaker 2: and Melbourne is a fucking coronk brang me, he said.
Speaker 2: At the club, he told the girls to look after me.
Speaker 2: I said yes, so they put him on. I said,
Speaker 2: he's not about bloke, you know, so I just don't
Speaker 2: rape him too much sort of thing. So I came
Speaker 2: back to Melbourne. The girls go bas your for he gels,
Speaker 2: I said, I was in the acquaints, I said, because
Speaker 2: he was, So what do you mean? He said, you're
Speaker 2: a tire kicker or this or that. Ah took me
Speaker 2: three years to find him. I was driving down the
Speaker 2: street in Chapel Street. I thought about him a lot,
Speaker 2: but I'm not even joking. But I wasn't going to
Speaker 2: get Hi my way. And there he was standing on
Speaker 2: the fucking corner right. So I've pulled into the side street.
Speaker 2: I said, bro come up here, here are you going?
Speaker 2: He gets good, cracked him on the jaw, mate, broke
Speaker 2: his fucking jaw, just left him there, dropped in the
Speaker 2: counter buff Two years later, one of our supporters bought
Speaker 2: a Lamborghini from him and they were folding and you've
Speaker 2: given him like a roundred thousand deposits and he was
Speaker 2: getting it back. I said, call and put me on
Speaker 2: the phone. I put him on the phone. I said,
Speaker 2: your fucking Doug. He paid straight away. But the point
Speaker 2: is he came. He came to me. I didn't ring him.
Speaker 2: He rang me. He said, can you sort this out?
Speaker 2: And then he went about so you're in my world now,
Speaker 2: I count This is how we fucking deal with things,
Speaker 2: same as spiermat Rhino. They came to Victoria. They bought
Speaker 2: a club of two brothers that were incarcerated. Inn't pay
Speaker 2: him the last three hundred grand, which was fine. And
Speaker 2: I was at the back in the lane way with
Speaker 2: a couple of boys and I'm a friend of mine
Speaker 2: just got out of child who was incarcerated with me.
Speaker 2: Gary Lewer, world champion bodybuilder, champion bloke. He was looking
Speaker 2: for me, I said, I met the rhine. I said.
Speaker 2: He walked in there and he went to the office
Speaker 2: and asked for me, and then he came. He found me,
Speaker 2: and he was a bit he was really uneasy. I said,
Speaker 2: what's wrong, Gary? Because I know nothing, I said, but
Speaker 2: there's clearly something wrong. Is there something on your mind?
Speaker 2: Like you look a little upset? He said, I'm just
Speaker 2: not we just got out of jail. Because I'm just
Speaker 2: not used people speaking about you in that manner he
Speaker 2: was in maximum. He was im panted with me. When
Speaker 2: Pendroit was closing, I was the last one on the bus,
Speaker 2: and he saw how I rolled screws and fucking business
Speaker 2: bro Like, I ran that shit up. I said, what
Speaker 2: do you mean? He goes, Oh, they were just a
Speaker 2: bit you know. I just didn't like how they spoke.
Speaker 2: I said, not worry about it, bro, They're just fucking civilians.
Speaker 2: But I made a mental note, and then I started
Speaker 2: watching him and they were getting a bit cute. So
Speaker 2: that following Friday, the principal owner was coming into town, right,
Speaker 2: and I've been looking after these because the Crown Caserno.
Speaker 2: I asked BE to look after him, and I said,
Speaker 2: come to my restaurant for lunch. So I'd already pre
Speaker 2: planned to lunch Friday morning, I said. The boys enter
Speaker 2: the club, pistol whip the manager, the one that checkie
Speaker 2: count and the part owner and told the whole place
Speaker 2: upside down as you do, right, they fucking shit, Who
Speaker 2: are they going to get to? They can show to
Speaker 2: me right, they're in my world now. So I saw
Speaker 2: that problem out took them to the I couldn't believe it,
Speaker 2: I said, I said, I go to see the blakes.
Speaker 2: They said, we want to come, said right, not the
Speaker 2: one that got pissed a p himself for John Gray. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he's a bit ballsy. It's got some dashes count. So
Speaker 2: we took him away to fucking Jadnung tooled up. Get there,
Speaker 2: lock it pulled off my jewelry theater. We go in
Speaker 2: there and there's like ten blokes, serious fucking men, and
Speaker 2: we was a throw off. The throw off was the
Speaker 2: consider and jar haven't been paid there three hundred grand.
Speaker 2: You feel me, right, I said, they'll get their money.
Speaker 2: When they get their money, this counts with me. Fuck
Speaker 2: off and they fucked off. So on the way back
Speaker 2: for a lot of silence, Okay, what about this percentage
Speaker 2: by because how point of this is our best to
Speaker 2: buy into the fucking joint? Because yeah, yeah, we've thought
Speaker 2: I'm going to we want you involved, he said, but
Speaker 2: we don't want any money. We're going to pay for it.
Speaker 2: So it was a gift. You see what I'm saying
Speaker 2: the point of this is they've come to me for
Speaker 2: help and they want to pay like cunts. So they
Speaker 2: get you out of like cunts. And then I wrapped
Speaker 2: them for the next seven fucking years. Boyeah, fair enough.
Speaker 2: I don't see anything wrong with that.
Speaker 3: Oh no, definitely not.
Speaker 1: With all this going on in your life now, and
Speaker 1: you said that, you know you joined the Mossoun. What
Speaker 1: made you get out?
Speaker 2: It was I had two young children, both going to
Speaker 2: private school, and I was in the paper so often
Speaker 2: anything that happened in Victoria that put a picture of me,
Speaker 2: horrible picture photoshops that have my name in headlines, and
Speaker 2: then they'd referred to me somewhere in the title, but
Speaker 2: it had nothing to do with me. So I was
Speaker 2: getting so much negative press that became a problem for
Speaker 2: my kids. My kids have been nice stated at school,
Speaker 2: they've been invited to parties. Parents are a bit fucking nervous,
Speaker 2: and rightly so. In fact, they were they rallying bring
Speaker 2: out back to try and get the kids expelled from
Speaker 2: the school. So it became a personal problem for my
Speaker 2: personal life. And if you're going to choose family or
Speaker 2: bike World, I always choose family. So I thought it
Speaker 2: was a good time. I'd ground the club to four chapters,
Speaker 2: and there was nothing in Victoria that my number two
Speaker 2: was ready to take over. It wasn't an overnight decision.
Speaker 2: We've been discussing this for like six eight months. I
Speaker 2: don't really know to find the hierarchy that I'm going
Speaker 2: to exit. Shortly, everyone was cool with it and we
Speaker 2: just transitioned. It was time. Look, I did it for
Speaker 2: two years. It was a lot of fun, but it
Speaker 2: became too noisy for me personally, too noisy, So it
Speaker 2: was time to exit.
Speaker 1: Didn't miss it, or it took you a while to
Speaker 1: get you sweet, or you were like you I were.
Speaker 1: You were ready for it, you were ready to get out.
Speaker 2: I wasn't absorbed by the whole thing. It was just
Speaker 2: like it was a you know, we do our weekly meetings,
Speaker 2: organize our runs. We catch up once every month for
Speaker 2: a ride, barely, and it wasn't like it wasn't it
Speaker 2: wasn't the whole lifestyle that we did committ one hundred
Speaker 2: percent of our time to all My members were you
Speaker 2: fathers and employed, so we can really afford to be
Speaker 2: in the club all the time and around the club
Speaker 2: all the time. So for me, exident the club made
Speaker 2: no real difference to me. I still had my associations
Speaker 2: that I kept.
Speaker 3: Do you have any regrets?
Speaker 2: No, Look, everything's a learning curve. Oh my mistakes of
Speaker 2: I'll hope I've learned from But yeah, you know, we
Speaker 2: this is our life. We choose the part that we
Speaker 2: choose and we do our best. Some things work out,
Speaker 2: some don't. Befall, have you touch stuff off, you keep
Speaker 2: plowing that you get back up.
Speaker 1: What would you describe yourself in one.
Speaker 3: Wad or two ways?
Speaker 2: I'll give you now or then, well.
Speaker 1: Let's go with both.
Speaker 3: Let's see, let's see the change in this.
Speaker 2: Well back then when I was, when I was arrested,
Speaker 2: I would say I would be that county you'd fucking
Speaker 2: hate if I if I knew him, I would love
Speaker 2: like him at arrogant cocky thinks he knows everything. They
Speaker 2: just want to punch him. Now, a lot more settled
Speaker 2: I've been. I've got experience. I have a lot more empathy.
Speaker 2: I understand when I do something that's a result or
Speaker 2: a consequence, and you know, you try and be a
Speaker 2: bit more respect for other people's time and space. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm bomb one with you now you.
Speaker 3: Were What's so? What's what's what's the thing now for you?
Speaker 3: In the future? What what? What? What's your plans?
Speaker 2: I'm still going but I haven't stopped.
Speaker 1: Because you brought the book out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the book's entertainment. Yeah, yeah, we did that. But
Speaker 2: I did that because I had I've been a time
Speaker 2: on my hands. I was stuck on the couch for
Speaker 2: a couple of years, so pushed out a book. No
Speaker 2: TV thing, possibly TV. Can't say too much, but you
Speaker 2: know it's it's generating a lot of interest. I'll just
Speaker 2: say that.
Speaker 3: But you're happy with yourself now.
Speaker 1: You're settled and mature now, as you said, so, you've
Speaker 1: you're happy with the way things are going in life now.
Speaker 2: I've always been happy. I've never been unhappy. Right, Everything
Speaker 2: is good. I like a bit of excitement. Everyone likes
Speaker 2: a bit of excitement. Man, things interesting.
Speaker 1: Well, thanks for coming on, sure, but I'm grateful for
Speaker 1: your time today, and I'm glad you came on to
Speaker 1: show your story.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, appreciate it. H