1
00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:11,799
Speaker 1: I'm I'm saying Burgh, welcome to the podcast.

2
00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:13,560
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, Paul.

3
00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,040
Speaker 3: It is great to have you on. We've got so

4
00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,880
Speaker 3: much shit to talk about. Whenever I looked into your

5
00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:20,720
Speaker 3: bio and the stuff that you've done, you know, the

6
00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,599
Speaker 3: first thing that struck me is that I think that

7
00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:25,439
Speaker 3: you're a fellow p academic.

8
00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:27,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

9
00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't.

10
00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,120
Speaker 3: I made it up to describe myself, right, But I

11
00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:34,879
Speaker 3: looked at you and.

12
00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,440
Speaker 1: I'm like, there's a fellow pracademic right there.

13
00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'd like to think so, And.

14
00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,519
Speaker 3: When did you When did you kind of I know

15
00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:46,040
Speaker 3: it wasn't no vert, but when.

16
00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:48,360
Speaker 1: Did you think this is what I want to do.

17
00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:53,640
Speaker 3: I want to be not just doing working within an organization.

18
00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,520
Speaker 3: I want to actually be bringing lots of research and

19
00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,000
Speaker 3: knowledge to wider communities.

20
00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:00,720
Speaker 1: Was there a point?

21
00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,080
Speaker 4: I think probably pretty early on in my career, so

22
00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:09,080
Speaker 4: in my twenties, after I finished what was like a

23
00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,840
Speaker 4: life sentence in organizational psychology, that is, at university. No,

24
00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,440
Speaker 4: it was just seven years. You don't get that for murder,

25
00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,280
Speaker 4: I don't think. But anyway, it was a long time

26
00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,840
Speaker 4: at university, and I just I was struck by the

27
00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,200
Speaker 4: fact that when I got into like the real world

28
00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,840
Speaker 4: and my first proper job was in advertising, working as

29
00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:34,480
Speaker 4: a consumer psychologist, I just couldn't believe how much great

30
00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,160
Speaker 4: stuff there was in all the academic papers that i'd

31
00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,720
Speaker 4: literally been immersed in for seven years at UNI, that

32
00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,160
Speaker 4: I'd learned so much from, and then no.

33
00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:45,840
Speaker 2: One was using them in real life.

34
00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,320
Speaker 4: But I just thought, this is so strange because even

35
00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,080
Speaker 4: just in the field of consumer psychology, and you know,

36
00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:51,760
Speaker 4: my field.

37
00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,440
Speaker 2: So much broader than that. Now, I'm like, there's so much.

38
00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,440
Speaker 4: That we can learn from this and that I can

39
00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:01,880
Speaker 4: help brands utilize to you know, improve their brand image

40
00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:03,560
Speaker 4: and improved by a behavior.

41
00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:06,160
Speaker 2: So it was I.

42
00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,320
Speaker 4: Guess it was a mission from pretty early on in

43
00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,480
Speaker 4: my career to go, let's actually bring all this great

44
00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,360
Speaker 4: science and make it super practical. And obviously, you know,

45
00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,480
Speaker 4: for the last couple of decades I've been applying that

46
00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,680
Speaker 4: more in the workplace and helping people be more productive,

47
00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,920
Speaker 4: helping them feel better and you know, do better work.

48
00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:30,320
Speaker 3: For consumer psychologists, so that's interesting, right, And how brands

49
00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,400
Speaker 3: can influence us to.

50
00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:33,520
Speaker 1: Buy their products.

51
00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:38,480
Speaker 3: What's the sneakiest little trick that you have come across

52
00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,640
Speaker 3: in consumer psychology. Can you think of one in terms

53
00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:47,160
Speaker 3: of priming people's brillands as you're thinking about it. I

54
00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:51,520
Speaker 3: once saw a presentation by guy and he was asking

55
00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:57,400
Speaker 3: us whether we preferred watermelon or banana, right, and like

56
00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:02,440
Speaker 3: ninety percent of the audience said watermelon, which is highly unusual.

57
00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,240
Speaker 3: But then he chilled us a few slides back where

58
00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,320
Speaker 3: he had done a microflash of a watermelon on the

59
00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:12,920
Speaker 3: screen that was too quick for you to consciously recognize it,

60
00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,320
Speaker 3: but your subconscious pretty and actually picked it up, like

61
00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:17,320
Speaker 3: holy shit.

62
00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,919
Speaker 1: And there's a whole heap of priming out there in psychology.

63
00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,600
Speaker 3: Is there anything that jumps to mind about how brands

64
00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,840
Speaker 3: can influence us in ways that we're not consciously aware of.

65
00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, look, it reminds me of a study I read.

66
00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:36,600
Speaker 4: So I used to be really into the psychology of

67
00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,440
Speaker 4: just people's in store retail behavior, and there was quite

68
00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:42,880
Speaker 4: a well known study that was done looking at how

69
00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:48,360
Speaker 4: could you influence people's behavior in a bottle shop selling alcohol?

70
00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:52,040
Speaker 4: And they played different kinds of music on different days,

71
00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,560
Speaker 4: and I remember, you know, when they played French music,

72
00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,880
Speaker 4: the bottle shop sold more French wine, you know, whereas

73
00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,240
Speaker 4: when this all you know, played other types of music

74
00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,920
Speaker 4: that would influence behavior in another direction. So you know,

75
00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,840
Speaker 4: I do think the priming research is very interesting, and

76
00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:10,720
Speaker 4: in that case, you know, being primed with music.

77
00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:11,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

78
00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:16,880
Speaker 3: I also remember when I studied neuroscience then telling us

79
00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:22,719
Speaker 3: about oxytocin and hi a light touch and particularly across

80
00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,640
Speaker 3: the back of the shoulders actually built trust and could

81
00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,960
Speaker 3: influence behavior. And about three days before I had been

82
00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,080
Speaker 3: in a close shop that was quite fancy that had

83
00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,080
Speaker 3: a seal on and I normally wouldn't have bought any stuff,

84
00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,240
Speaker 3: and I remember that the shop assistance she put this

85
00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,320
Speaker 3: jacket on me and she went, oh, that's a really

86
00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:45,080
Speaker 3: nice fit, and just lightly rubbed her fingers across my

87
00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,640
Speaker 3: back and I ended up buying the jacket.

88
00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,960
Speaker 1: Right. But then I've noticed that when you go into

89
00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:52,640
Speaker 1: story they do that sort of shit.

90
00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,120
Speaker 4: Right, That's funny because like if a man did that

91
00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,200
Speaker 4: to me in the shop, I would think pre cram.

92
00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:01,360
Speaker 2: Maybe it works the other way.

93
00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,520
Speaker 3: I don't know, I think, yeah, probably, I think it

94
00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:09,600
Speaker 3: would be creepy the other way. But let's look, let's

95
00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,320
Speaker 3: talk about I want to talk about three of your books,

96
00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,480
Speaker 3: right because they piqued my interest, and the first one

97
00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:18,640
Speaker 3: is your book, The Health Habit.

98
00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:20,040
Speaker 1: I think a cheerlidest one, isn't it?

99
00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:21,080
Speaker 2: Yes? It is yes?

100
00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:23,440
Speaker 1: And so you you.

101
00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:27,679
Speaker 3: Talk all about there about about little hacks and habits

102
00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,520
Speaker 3: and things that we can do around our health.

103
00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,479
Speaker 1: And and I often talk about the knowing doing.

104
00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:38,080
Speaker 3: Gap that exists in people, like most of our listeners

105
00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,520
Speaker 3: thinking said it's sitting here know what they need to

106
00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:43,719
Speaker 3: do right around their health. For some it will be

107
00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,039
Speaker 3: I know I need to exercise more, and some will

108
00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:47,440
Speaker 3: be I know I need to drink less, I know

109
00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,480
Speaker 3: to give up smoking, I know I need to eat better.

110
00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,080
Speaker 1: And what has there been.

111
00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,840
Speaker 3: A gap in your life that kind of stimulated you

112
00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:01,920
Speaker 3: to dig in to this research where you've been for

113
00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,240
Speaker 3: a while going I know I need to do this shit,

114
00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,440
Speaker 3: but I just haven't been doing it, and that you've

115
00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,200
Speaker 3: used a little technique that you talk about in the book.

116
00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,679
Speaker 4: Hmmm, that is a That is a good question, because

117
00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,320
Speaker 4: I think what I've done, and I've been doing this

118
00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,680
Speaker 4: for years, is that I've I've simply because I'm so

119
00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,400
Speaker 4: familiar with the psychology of habit change that I just

120
00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,560
Speaker 4: kind of naturally apply that in my life when I'm

121
00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,880
Speaker 4: trying to change your behavior. So there's there's at any

122
00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:38,120
Speaker 4: given point in time, there's probably not too many behaviors

123
00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,440
Speaker 4: that I'm like, oh, that is very problematic. I really

124
00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,880
Speaker 4: want to change that, because I'm just constantly hacking my

125
00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,320
Speaker 4: way through, Like you know, an example of that is,

126
00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,640
Speaker 4: you know, I've had a very regular exercise routine for

127
00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,680
Speaker 4: many years. Like we're like probably in terms of like

128
00:06:55,760 --> 00:07:00,440
Speaker 4: resistance training, which is all the rage with certainly, you know,

129
00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,560
Speaker 4: we're like I'm in my late forties, so certainly in

130
00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,280
Speaker 4: that bracket. I think a lot of women are just

131
00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:08,920
Speaker 4: starting to learn about the importance of strength training.

132
00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,040
Speaker 2: But I have been doing.

133
00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,000
Speaker 4: That pretty consistently, about four times a week for about

134
00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,520
Speaker 4: six years now, and simply because like I'm able to

135
00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,320
Speaker 4: just create these you know, psychological hacks in my life

136
00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,520
Speaker 4: that just make it fairly automatic. And likewise with cardio training,

137
00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,800
Speaker 4: I actually hate cardio training. But I've got a really

138
00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,680
Speaker 4: expensive exercise bike and I know I should use it,

139
00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:35,760
Speaker 4: but I really don't enjoy it. And so a few

140
00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,880
Speaker 4: years ago I thought, well, how can I hack this?

141
00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:43,240
Speaker 4: And one of my favorite strategies is temptation bundling, where

142
00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,760
Speaker 4: you yeah, where you pair the unpleasurable activity, the thing

143
00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,000
Speaker 4: that you know that you have to do and change

144
00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,320
Speaker 4: it to something you want to do by pairing that

145
00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:57,000
Speaker 4: thing with something that is desirable, enjoyable, pleasurable. And so

146
00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,520
Speaker 4: for me, one of my guilty pleasures is watching the

147
00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,760
Speaker 4: US Bachelor, and it has to be the US version

148
00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:05,840
Speaker 4: because like maximum bitchiness.

149
00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:06,360
Speaker 1: Extra tuckiness.

150
00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:07,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly exactly.

151
00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,160
Speaker 4: And at the time, like, I was really into that

152
00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,480
Speaker 4: show and I would feel very very guilty sitting on

153
00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,360
Speaker 4: the couch and watching it, like.

154
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:18,680
Speaker 2: It was just a terrible feeling.

155
00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,200
Speaker 4: And I thought, well, why don't I know, pop my

156
00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:27,760
Speaker 4: iPad on my exercise bike and I will have a

157
00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,120
Speaker 4: rule that I'm only allowed to watch The Bachelor when

158
00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,240
Speaker 4: I'm on the exercise bike. And suddenly I started to

159
00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,240
Speaker 4: really look forward to being on the bike.

160
00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,640
Speaker 2: Because I'm like, oh, I get to find out what's happening.

161
00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,960
Speaker 4: I get to find out who's getting roses and ooh exciting.

162
00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,000
Speaker 4: And it meant that I would get through seasons of

163
00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,120
Speaker 4: The Bachelor very very slowly, and I would read all

164
00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,520
Speaker 4: the spoilers before the end of the season. But it

165
00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,319
Speaker 4: did not detract from my enjoyment, and it turned the

166
00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:57,400
Speaker 4: bike riding into a very strong habit.

167
00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:03,880
Speaker 3: I actually did a very very similar thing like Zone

168
00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:04,559
Speaker 3: two cardio.

169
00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:09,480
Speaker 1: I forgat hate it. It just bores me to tears, but.

170
00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:11,520
Speaker 3: I have to do it because I had sort of

171
00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,280
Speaker 3: recent issues with my heart, so I had to do it.

172
00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:18,280
Speaker 3: And I've been doing CrossFit religiously. I love it and

173
00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,240
Speaker 3: I hate Zone two. And I thought I bought myself

174
00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:26,560
Speaker 3: an exercise bike and I stuck it in the theater room.

175
00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,040
Speaker 3: And it's like I'm only allowed to watch the EPL

176
00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,120
Speaker 3: soccer if I'm on the back.

177
00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:34,439
Speaker 1: That is the gig.

178
00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,440
Speaker 3: Because it bloody well works right, and it's but you

179
00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:43,240
Speaker 3: have to have the discipline, though, don't you, Because I mean,

180
00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,800
Speaker 3: this is the easy thing. We are very good at

181
00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,720
Speaker 3: talking ourselves out of intended behaviors and and pulling up

182
00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:52,520
Speaker 3: all sorts of reasons why we can't.

183
00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:53,040
Speaker 1: Right.

184
00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:54,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

185
00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,040
Speaker 4: Look, I like to think that there are ways to

186
00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,880
Speaker 4: avoid rely on discipline or relying on will power. I mean,

187
00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,920
Speaker 4: like I happen to be very high on conscientiousness if

188
00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,480
Speaker 4: we're looking at, you know, like the Big five personality traits.

189
00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:11,720
Speaker 2: But I don't think that.

190
00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,160
Speaker 4: That should be the key when we're trying to change

191
00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,400
Speaker 4: our behavior, because if we're just relying on discipline or

192
00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,319
Speaker 4: will power or just being a really conscientious person, I

193
00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,160
Speaker 4: think we're setting ourselves up for failure because there are

194
00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,480
Speaker 4: going to be days that are just crappy days where

195
00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,920
Speaker 4: you're feeling really stressed or unmotivated or exhausted, and you

196
00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,800
Speaker 4: don't want to have to rely on this thing, you know,

197
00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:39,560
Speaker 4: willpower or discipline that can be quite fleeting. So I

198
00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:42,439
Speaker 4: so that's why I think temptation bundling works really well.

199
00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,600
Speaker 4: And you know, there's other strategies that we can talk about.

200
00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,440
Speaker 4: I also think it's great for parenting. I've got an

201
00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:52,559
Speaker 4: eleven year old daughter around I, you know, and and

202
00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,720
Speaker 4: there are many things that she does not enjoy that

203
00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,959
Speaker 4: she just needs to deal with, like having her hair brushed.

204
00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:01,360
Speaker 4: And she issued was that all eleven year old girls

205
00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,640
Speaker 4: hate having their hair brushed, and so she's like, can

206
00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,440
Speaker 4: we temptation bundling that? Can we temptation bundle the hair

207
00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,760
Speaker 4: brushing please, mum? And you know, where she gets to

208
00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,080
Speaker 4: do something enjoyable, like listen to an audio book or

209
00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,240
Speaker 4: you know, watch five minutes of TV while I brush

210
00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,760
Speaker 4: your hair. And so temptation bundling is like a really

211
00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,240
Speaker 4: big thing in our house, and it's very good for parenting.

212
00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:26,360
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, I agree.

213
00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,920
Speaker 3: And in the school holidays when my kids were younger,

214
00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,280
Speaker 3: we had a rule that they had to get sixty

215
00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:35,080
Speaker 3: activity points before they were allowed to get on a screen, right,

216
00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,480
Speaker 3: And so they had to actually go and get it done.

217
00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,960
Speaker 3: When I was talking about the discipline, I meant the

218
00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:45,040
Speaker 3: discipline to keep with the tempt with the bundling and

219
00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,280
Speaker 3: not to unwine the bundling.

220
00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,760
Speaker 1: Right. So if you've said I'm only allowed to do this,

221
00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:52,920
Speaker 1: then it's got to be a ruler.

222
00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,920
Speaker 3: I'm a big fan of having occasional not too many

223
00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,160
Speaker 3: occasional rules. Right, I'll give you, I'll give you an

224
00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,559
Speaker 3: example of this and then and then you can let

225
00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:05,800
Speaker 3: me know if there's anything similar that you've done.

226
00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,760
Speaker 1: So cold shares, right, very good for you.

227
00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,679
Speaker 3: And I don't particularly like the cold particularly having moved

228
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,640
Speaker 3: from from Northern Ireland, but I read a whole heap

229
00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,240
Speaker 3: of research on cold sharers and I thought I need

230
00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:23,800
Speaker 3: to do this stuff. And I started initially saying I'm

231
00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:25,840
Speaker 3: going to do it four days a week. And what

232
00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,040
Speaker 3: I find is that on a Monday morning, I'd be

233
00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,839
Speaker 3: standing in the show and this, and I'd be going, right,

234
00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:33,680
Speaker 3: I got to do my cold shoar, and this little

235
00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:34,400
Speaker 3: voice would.

236
00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,680
Speaker 1: Come in my head and go, it's only Monday. You

237
00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:38,240
Speaker 1: only have to do it four days a week. You

238
00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,959
Speaker 1: don't have to do it today. And it then turned

239
00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:42,080
Speaker 1: into a willpower fight.

240
00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:46,680
Speaker 3: Right, So I created and if then behavior. If I

241
00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,439
Speaker 3: have a show, then I turn it to cold for

242
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,200
Speaker 3: thirty seconds and made it a rule. And because if

243
00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,319
Speaker 3: it's a rule, then you just have to do it.

244
00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:56,679
Speaker 3: And I don't like to overuse those rules. But is

245
00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,480
Speaker 3: there anything any sort of strategy that you use like that?

246
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:02,000
Speaker 2: Yeah?

247
00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:07,440
Speaker 4: Look, I I operate really well with rules, definitely, but

248
00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:08,520
Speaker 4: I know.

249
00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,120
Speaker 1: The conscientiousness coming here.

250
00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:12,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right, and I can I if something is

251
00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,800
Speaker 4: really black and white, like for example, I, you know,

252
00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:21,200
Speaker 4: it's completely addicted to sugar and like for most of

253
00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,600
Speaker 4: my twenties and thirties and probably teenage years as well.

254
00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,360
Speaker 4: And I realized it was becoming a problem a few

255
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,200
Speaker 4: months after my daughter was born, and I thought, I

256
00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:33,920
Speaker 4: just have to I have to quit this behavior. Like

257
00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,800
Speaker 4: I you know, one night, I think when Frankie was

258
00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:41,439
Speaker 4: three months old, I was craving sugar or chocolate so badly,

259
00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,080
Speaker 4: and I like, you know, looked in the pantry and

260
00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:48,840
Speaker 4: the fridge, it couldn't find anything. And then I thought, oh, well,

261
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,480
Speaker 4: there's this tupperware container of raw sugar in the pantry.

262
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,320
Speaker 4: Maybe maybe I'll just have some raw sugar, like how

263
00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,160
Speaker 4: bad my addiction was. And I got it out and

264
00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,280
Speaker 4: I got a taste burn and I started like he's

265
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:04,640
Speaker 4: burning sugar into my mouth. And at that point in time,

266
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,240
Speaker 4: my husband, he's now my ex husband, not for that reason.

267
00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,679
Speaker 4: He walked in and I saw myself through his eyes

268
00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,000
Speaker 4: and I just thought, ah, I need to stop. And

269
00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:18,040
Speaker 4: so I just I set a rule for myself. I

270
00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,600
Speaker 4: just said, I don't eat sugar, I don't eat chocolate,

271
00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,960
Speaker 4: I don't do dessert. Like using that kind of self

272
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,400
Speaker 4: talk with the language I don't do this is incredibly

273
00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,280
Speaker 4: powerful according to research, and it certainly worked for me

274
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,400
Speaker 4: in terms of really quitting sugar. But what I was

275
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,400
Speaker 4: going to say for those that don't operate all that

276
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,240
Speaker 4: well with rules, and I find that people they're either

277
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,000
Speaker 4: you know, really good with rule based kind of things

278
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,280
Speaker 4: in their life or they're not is I've read some

279
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,400
Speaker 4: great research around the power of whole passes and hall

280
00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,040
Speaker 4: passes is the concept I think is traditionally applied to marriages,

281
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:58,120
Speaker 4: where like, you know, you talk about your celebrity hall pass, like, oh,

282
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,480
Speaker 4: you know, if you know, if I could have a

283
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,520
Speaker 4: night with such and such, that would be fight, and

284
00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,520
Speaker 4: like that is a hall pass. I don't actually think

285
00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,200
Speaker 4: that it works in marriages all that well.

286
00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:09,360
Speaker 2: Not that I've tried it, but.

287
00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,400
Speaker 4: Hall passes work really well when we're trying to adopt

288
00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,560
Speaker 4: a daily, let's say, healthy behavior for ourselves.

289
00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:20,080
Speaker 2: So there was one.

290
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:24,000
Speaker 4: Particular study that recruited people that had a walking goal

291
00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:28,600
Speaker 4: and they looked at them for a period of thirty days,

292
00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,200
Speaker 4: and they tracked how many steps they took, and everyone

293
00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:34,520
Speaker 4: had a goal I think to do about twenty percent

294
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,080
Speaker 4: more than their current average. So it was a bit

295
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,600
Speaker 4: of a stretch for everyone, and one group they had

296
00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:44,360
Speaker 4: to meet their target every day, and the other group

297
00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,520
Speaker 4: were actually given two hall passes per week, so there

298
00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,320
Speaker 4: were two days that they could pick in each of

299
00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,800
Speaker 4: those four weeks of the study where they didn't have

300
00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,760
Speaker 4: to hit their walking goal. And what the research has

301
00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,520
Speaker 4: found is that those that had that hall pass option

302
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,960
Speaker 4: actually ended up walking more steps than the everyday group.

303
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,200
Speaker 4: And when they had a fail when they didn't meet

304
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,360
Speaker 4: their goal, they actually bounced back more quickly, And so

305
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,200
Speaker 4: I think it's a really good strategy for people. You know,

306
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,680
Speaker 4: like you talk about the shower goal. Obviously that was

307
00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,480
Speaker 4: only four times a week, but if that was, say

308
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,320
Speaker 4: a daily goal, then I would say, okay, Paul, why

309
00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,880
Speaker 4: don't you give yourself two whole passes and Monday just

310
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,560
Speaker 4: might be a whole past day because it avoids that

311
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,720
Speaker 4: oh what let psychologists call the what the hell effect?

312
00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,640
Speaker 2: Oh yes, I've you know, binged on chocolate, so ah,

313
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,800
Speaker 2: what the hell? I might as well? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yeah,

314
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:39,480
Speaker 2: that's exactly.

315
00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,800
Speaker 3: Have your year on a great trend for like four

316
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:44,600
Speaker 3: weeks and then you have a weekend of shit and

317
00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,840
Speaker 3: you go it's all over. I'm useless, and yeah, the

318
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,080
Speaker 3: baby goes open the bath wad. I love that And

319
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,160
Speaker 3: bodybuilders because I used to interact with a lot of bodybuilders,

320
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,200
Speaker 3: not that I was one, but and they would talk

321
00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,680
Speaker 3: about cheek days a lot and the importance of those

322
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,600
Speaker 3: chea days. And I think it's that little there's a

323
00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,080
Speaker 3: little psychological thing in the back of your mind in

324
00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,520
Speaker 3: that I don't have to be one hundred percent right.

325
00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,120
Speaker 3: I actually use that when I'm talking to people about nutrition.

326
00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,439
Speaker 3: I talk about a Lohhi diet as in low human interference,

327
00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,600
Speaker 3: but the eighty twenty RUW which we use in our house.

328
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:20,920
Speaker 3: And I have a nineteen year old boy and I sorry,

329
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:22,680
Speaker 3: nineteen year old girl and a fifteen year old boy

330
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,119
Speaker 3: who self regulate around the eighty twenty round. So about

331
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,560
Speaker 3: eighty percent of the stuff that goes in your gub

332
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,240
Speaker 3: should have been alive recently and minimally interfered with by humans,

333
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:35,960
Speaker 3: and the other twenty percent is your treat stuff, right,

334
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,280
Speaker 3: because we all need to let loose a little bit,

335
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,320
Speaker 3: you know. I don't think he can be one hundred

336
00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,560
Speaker 3: percent discipline one hundred percent of the time. That is,

337
00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:51,720
Speaker 3: I think that's a recipe for orthorexia, which is this

338
00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:56,800
Speaker 3: new kind of diagnosis that's come out about obsessive exercising

339
00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,880
Speaker 3: and eating. I think people can go down that path.

340
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,040
Speaker 3: So yeah, I love that idea of whole passes and

341
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:04,960
Speaker 3: what other Oh, actually.

342
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:06,840
Speaker 1: There was one you mentioned a little bit earlier on.

343
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,679
Speaker 3: We were talking about I do and those sorts of

344
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:14,840
Speaker 3: things which kind of links it into identity. So how

345
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:19,240
Speaker 3: important is it with you around identity? I've worked with

346
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:21,600
Speaker 3: people before and you know, if they if they want

347
00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:24,159
Speaker 3: to lose weird or they want to stop smoking, I'm like,

348
00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,199
Speaker 3: you've got to visualize yourself as a non smoker and

349
00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,160
Speaker 3: beg that part of my identity, why would I have

350
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,400
Speaker 3: that cigarette because I'm a non smoker? And what's your

351
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:38,320
Speaker 3: thoughts on that whole identity thing and trying to create

352
00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,480
Speaker 3: that identity in your head and a bit of mental imagery,

353
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:42,800
Speaker 3: whether that plays into it.

354
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, our identity and how we see ourselves is so

355
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:52,360
Speaker 4: important because as humans, we're just programmed to not want

356
00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,200
Speaker 4: to act in a way that is inconsistent with our

357
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,399
Speaker 4: own self identity, how we see ourselves, and we're just

358
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,840
Speaker 4: going to programmed that way. So it's a useful thing

359
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,840
Speaker 4: to take advantage of. I know, for me, like I

360
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,120
Speaker 4: I grew up all through school, I wasn't a very

361
00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:07,800
Speaker 4: sporty kid.

362
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:08,720
Speaker 2: I was pretty.

363
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:13,679
Speaker 4: Uncoordinated and I you know, and my self identity was

364
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:18,240
Speaker 4: that I'm well, I'm I'm not fit, I'm not strong,

365
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:23,840
Speaker 4: I'm unco and that was my self identity. And you know,

366
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,840
Speaker 4: in my twenties, I you know, like a lot of women,

367
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:28,639
Speaker 4: I thought well that you know, I should go to

368
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,000
Speaker 4: the gym because that's important, and you know, exercise makes

369
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,920
Speaker 4: you look better and all those you know, unhelpful things

370
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,520
Speaker 4: that I think, you know, particularly women are fed, although

371
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,160
Speaker 4: you know, I think more and more men are getting

372
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:40,520
Speaker 4: fed those messages as well.

373
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:43,000
Speaker 2: And then, you.

374
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,280
Speaker 4: Know, I think it was Yeah, it would have been

375
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:51,439
Speaker 4: in my forties. I think that something clicked where, you know,

376
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,080
Speaker 4: I was doing a lot of the strength training and

377
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,399
Speaker 4: I was getting you know, really good gains on the

378
00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:59,960
Speaker 4: lifts that I was working on. Not that I was

379
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,400
Speaker 4: you know, bodybuild or anything like that, but I started

380
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,920
Speaker 4: to see myself as really strong and really fit, and

381
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,919
Speaker 4: particularly for my age group. And I think that that

382
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:17,720
Speaker 4: was really really helpful in me very much prioritizing exercise

383
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,840
Speaker 4: in my life because I do see myself as strong,

384
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 4: and I do see myself as fit, and I see

385
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,720
Speaker 4: myself as someone that really enjoys movement now and that

386
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:32,040
Speaker 4: I'm good at it. And therefore, if I, you know,

387
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,760
Speaker 4: have a week where you know, like unless I'm sick

388
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:37,680
Speaker 4: or something, if I have a week where you know,

389
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:39,679
Speaker 4: I don't go to the GM or I don't exercise,

390
00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:44,080
Speaker 4: I feel really uncomfortable about that. And to be honest,

391
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:49,480
Speaker 4: it just so rarely happens because it's part of my identity.

392
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:50,800
Speaker 1: You met in your DNA.

393
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,280
Speaker 2: No, right, it really is. It really is.

394
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,639
Speaker 4: And at first it's a bit of a psychological trick

395
00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:00,840
Speaker 4: because you know, if you go from no exercise to exercise,

396
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,360
Speaker 4: then you're kind of going to have to pretend, kind

397
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:06,119
Speaker 4: of fake it till you make it if you like.

398
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,600
Speaker 4: But there will reach a point where you make it.

399
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,280
Speaker 3: I you know what, I like a little tweak on

400
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,240
Speaker 3: that fake it until you become it.

401
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:13,959
Speaker 2: Hm.

402
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,400
Speaker 3: I love that, Yeah, because there it's part of the identity.

403
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:17,800
Speaker 1: Right.

404
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,760
Speaker 3: What other little strategies have you found to be really

405
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 3: effective for people, whether it's around food or exercise, or

406
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,440
Speaker 3: sleep or any of those sort of health habits.

407
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:32,640
Speaker 4: Man, I could go into any one of those. I mean,

408
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,200
Speaker 4: I'm very passionate about sleep, So.

409
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:38,880
Speaker 3: For me, let's dig into that then, because I think

410
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 3: there's a lot of people who have shit are sleep right.

411
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 4: So I I was someone that in my twenties and

412
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,159
Speaker 4: also in my thirties, I really struggled with insomnia. So

413
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,360
Speaker 4: I remember in my twenties I was living in Sydney

414
00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:01,359
Speaker 4: for a fair chunk of my twenties and in the

415
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,399
Speaker 4: advertising job that I mentioned earlier. My daily commute to

416
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 4: work involved driving from my home is about like twenty

417
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 4: thirty minute drive going over to the Sydney Harbor Bridge

418
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,200
Speaker 4: and to the agency that I worked at in North Sydney.

419
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,120
Speaker 2: And I remember one.

420
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 4: Morning I was on my normal drive and I was

421
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 4: feeling exhausted, as I always did, and you know, it

422
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 4: was about eight am, I think, and I remember thinking

423
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 4: to myself this random thought. I thought, I wonder if

424
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,400
Speaker 4: there are some people who right now are not actually

425
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 4: feeling exhausted. And it dawned on me that maybe this

426
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 4: constant feeling of exhaustion that I just felt all the time,

427
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 4: I would never wake up feeling refreshed. I thought, maybe

428
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 4: I'm the abnormal one here. And so I got to

429
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 4: work and I googled sleep doctor Sydney and I made

430
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 4: an appointment to see a sleep doctor and he then

431
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 4: ordered a I think they called polysomnographs, where essentially like

432
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 4: an overnight sleep test, which is just like there, you're.

433
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:09,239
Speaker 2: All wild up.

434
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,199
Speaker 4: It's like you take it insomniac and then you attach

435
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:17,920
Speaker 4: about forty wires to them and goes sleep sleep yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

436
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 4: And I remember I was done, I got about five

437
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 4: hours sleep, which I thought, oh my god, I can't

438
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 4: believe I slept at all. And and I went back

439
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,880
Speaker 4: to said sleep doctor to get the results, and he said,

440
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:34,439
Speaker 4: the good news is that there's nothing physiologically wrong with you,

441
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,439
Speaker 4: like you don't know sleep happening, You don't have you know,

442
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 4: any of the various sort of sleep disorders that one

443
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 4: might have that can cause insomnia. And he said, but

444
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 4: the bad news is that it's psychological and there's no

445
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,399
Speaker 4: magic pill that we can give you to fix that.

446
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:54,199
Speaker 4: So what I then started to do, you know, essentially prescribed,

447
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 4: if you like, by this sleep doctor, is sleep reduction therapy,

448
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 4: where yeah, where he's okay, I want you to tell me, like,

449
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 4: how many hours are you spending in bed a night?

450
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 4: And at the time, I was getting into bed at

451
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 4: about nine pm and staying in bed till about seven am,

452
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,919
Speaker 4: so a ten hour shift, and that sounds really long.

453
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 2: But my rational thought process was, well.

454
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 4: The longer I spend in bed, the higher the chance

455
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 4: I have of actually catching some sleep.

456
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 2: So that seemed really sensible to me.

457
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 4: And then the sleep doctor asked me, well, how many

458
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 4: hours of those ten do you think you're actually asleep

459
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 4: for and you know, at this point in time, I

460
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 4: didn't have an aura ring, so I was just guessing,

461
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 4: and I said, I reckon about six hours. And he said, okay,

462
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,360
Speaker 4: here's what you're going to do for the next few

463
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 4: days is you are going to keep your wake time.

464
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 4: You'll get out of bedtime the same seven am, but

465
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,199
Speaker 4: you are only going to be in bed for six hours,

466
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 4: given that's how many hours you think you're sleeping, and

467
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,239
Speaker 4: so you were going to stay up until one in

468
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 4: the morning. And my jaw hit the floor. I'm like,

469
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 4: I don't I don't even know how to do that.

470
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 2: That I did it.

471
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 4: I did it for a few nights, and by the

472
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 4: time I went into bed at one am, I was

473
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 4: exhausted and I fell asleep and I slept for those

474
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 4: six hours, because what you're training yourself to do is

475
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 4: to associate your bed with sleep as opposed to ruminating

476
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,959
Speaker 4: and catastrophizing and stressing. And then, so how sleep restriction

477
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 4: therapy then works is that once you are staying asleep

478
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 4: for that period of time that you're in bed, you

479
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 4: can then get into bed so half an hour earlier.

480
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 4: Do that for a few nights, and then you know,

481
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 4: keep essentially winding the clock back until you're in bed

482
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 4: for however many hours you think you need, you know,

483
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 4: which for most people is between seven to nine hours.

484
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that's verty cool that because it builds up

485
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 3: the sleep pressure, right, And actually that there was a

486
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 3: professor at i'm pretty such Victoria University who devised this ring,

487
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 3: which I actually got as part of his study because

488
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 3: just because I was interested in it. And basically, you

489
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 3: would put the ring on it night this is for insomniacs,

490
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 3: and you would get into bed and it would buzz

491
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 3: after fifteen minutes, and then you had.

492
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: To get up and get out of the room and.

493
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 3: Go and sit and read a book until you've felt tired,

494
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 3: and then you get into bed and then boom. The

495
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,120
Speaker 3: same thing would happen again. And that would happen four

496
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 3: or five or six times until the sleep pressure built

497
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 3: up and built up and built up to.

498
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 1: The point where you're like, oh, why is this frigging

499
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 1: ring going off?

500
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 3: And then but this sleep pressure was so great that

501
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 3: then boom, these insomniacs fell asleep and within a week

502
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 3: cured people of insomnia.

503
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 2: Right, So thank god, I love that.

504
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 4: I love that and That's such an important strategy because

505
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 4: you do not want your bed to be a place

506
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 4: that you associate with like rumination and stressing.

507
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,199
Speaker 3: As I always say in workshops, your brain needs to

508
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 3: know that your bed is where you go to sleep

509
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 3: and if you're lucky, a bit of boofty mcgoofy every night.

510
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,199
Speaker 3: It's not for television, it's not for laptops, not for

511
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 3: more both phones, not for ruminating. So get your ass

512
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 3: out of bed and go and sit down into the

513
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 3: sleep pressure and it's the best of that.

514
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 1: Right for people who struggle with sleep.

515
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 3: Let's talk about because we talked a little bit about identity,

516
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:26,919
Speaker 3: there are what about values. Have you done any digging

517
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 3: into the idea of linking behaviors.

518
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: Or goals to personal values at all?

519
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 5: Hmm?

520
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, I mean it definitely matters.

521
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 4: I think I've wrote a little bit about this in

522
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 4: The Health Habit, and I have written a little bit

523
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 4: about it actually in the most recent book that I've

524
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 4: been working on. It doesn't come out till mid next year,

525
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 4: but it's all about energy and how can we come

526
00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 4: back from burnout and exhaustion, and certainly if we are

527
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 4: thinking about our values, actually just even identifying a couple

528
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 4: of values that makes us more likely to act in

529
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 4: line with those, which then ultimately gives us more energy

530
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 4: and happiness. So certainly there's like there's a strong link there,

531
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 4: you know, I do. I am a big believer, you know,

532
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 4: as cliche as it sounds in just remembering, just like

533
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 4: why am I doing this? Why?

534
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 2: Yeah? What's my wife?

535
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 4: It's such a cliche, But I think where it's important

536
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 4: is like when you are just sort of you know,

537
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 4: bogged down in the minutia, you're feeling overwhelmed or stressed,

538
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 4: or you're procrastinating. I know, I find that really useful,

539
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 4: and I think that's sort of you know, it's adjacent

540
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 4: to your values.

541
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 2: Really yeah, I like.

542
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 3: For me personally, values and aligning thos with your behavior.

543
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 3: It's like, for me, one of mine is authenticity, and

544
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 3: Maris and ex military are like a tipple, right. And

545
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 3: the one thing that really pulled my alcohol back was

546
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 3: linking it to being authentic because I'm a corporate speaker

547
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 3: and I talk about peak performance all the time, and

548
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 3: I thought I'm being inauthentic if I'm on the stage

549
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 3: telling people about peak performance and drinking alcohol four nights

550
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 3: a week, right if you even if you're and lots

551
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 3: of people do, right, it's just a few glasses of wine.

552
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 3: And I thought, well, actually that's not consistent with those values.

553
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:40,479
Speaker 3: But one other thing that I think is underappreciated in

554
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 3: the area of health behavior change is about personal accountability.

555
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you a little story and then get

556
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: your view on this.

557
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 3: This is the nuclear option, right, And I've used this

558
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 3: on a couple of people and I found it's almost

559
00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 3: full proof. And it was through a self experiment tation

560
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 3: that I was for all my life I've been between

561
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 3: eighty and eighty two killed when out all my life

562
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 3: wasn't an eighty kilo baby.

563
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: But you know, since I was an adult eighty to

564
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: eighty two kilos.

565
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 3: And on my fortieth birthday, I went back to Ireland

566
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 3: and caught up with a whole bunch of meutes, spent

567
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 3: ten days in Ireland and reacquainted myself with Guinness.

568
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: Came back home and stood on the scales.

569
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 3: Just after Christmas, and I was eighty four kilos, which

570
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 3: I'd never been in my life. So what I did

571
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 3: is I thought about this and then I went to

572
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 3: a maid of mine. About three days later, a guy

573
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 3: who I respected.

574
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 1: I took a.

575
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 3: Thousand dollars out of the bank, right, which was significant

576
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 3: money to me then, and I put it in an

577
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 3: envelope and I gave it to him, and I said,

578
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 3: if I don't send you a photograph by the end

579
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 3: of January of me standing on the scales at eighty

580
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 3: kilos which was my fighting weight when I boxed right

581
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 3: at eighty kilos, you are to take that thousand dollars

582
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 3: and you're to put it into the collection box of

583
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 3: the nearest Catholic church.

584
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: Right. The reason for that is I'm a recovering Catholic.

585
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 3: I was brought up as a Catholic of Northern Ireland,

586
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 3: and I really.

587
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 1: Do not like the institution right now.

588
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 3: And the reason why I think that's important. And then

589
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 3: I find this this thing called Kick.

590
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: I think it was. It was about habits to know

591
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: if you ever come across that.

592
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 3: Website where you you would set a goal and you

593
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 3: would and then ascribe a certain amount of money, and

594
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 3: you would have a third party who and who would

595
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 3: say and that money would go into an escrower count

596
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 3: and if you didn't achieve that goal by a certain date,

597
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 3: that money got given to a charity of your choice, Right,

598
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 3: And I thought, what a cop out that is, because

599
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 3: you're actually going to feel on a behavior and feel

600
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 3: a little bit good about it because you're actually giving

601
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 3: it to charity. I thought, no, no, no, no, no, give

602
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 3: it to something that you detest.

603
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the whole idea of that is about.

604
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 3: Combining those things around human behavior, which is the desire

605
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 3: to achieve the goal and the fear of missing out

606
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 3: on something as well.

607
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: Right.

608
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 3: And I don't know if you've seen the bisbas stuff

609
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 3: about some people are more motivated around the desire to

610
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 3: achieve something that some people are more motivated about the fear.

611
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 3: But the closer we get to the goal, the more

612
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 3: we go into the fear of missing out. So I thought,

613
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 3: that's the nuclear strategy that drives both those things, because

614
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 3: you want to achieve the behavior, but it's like, there's

615
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 3: no way.

616
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: I'm giving my money to that person or that institution.

617
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 3: Yes, any thoughts on that and any other little nuclear

618
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 3: behaviors that you've come across.

619
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 2: Look, I mean that's very effective.

620
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 4: Psychologists call that a commitment device, and it's a hard

621
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 4: commitment device when money is involved.

622
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: And you know.

623
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 4: I've used them myself. I've got friends and even teammates.

624
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 4: I know that I had one teammate that was trying

625
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 4: to change her behavior around something.

626
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 2: She was trying to read more books and she.

627
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 4: Is a crazy mad Leads supporter and Manchester United to

628
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 4: the devil and she I think she was going to

629
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 4: do something if she didn't make this goal. I think

630
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 4: she was going to buy herself a Manchester and take

631
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 4: a picture. Yeah, take a picture of herself and put

632
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 4: it on the socials. Luckily she met her goal. But

633
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 4: I think it's I think it's very effective, you know,

634
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 4: Like look, one of my one of my favorite ways

635
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 4: to try to redesign your behavior when you're trying to

636
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 4: do more of something or trying to do less of something,

637
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 4: like you know, let's just take like you know, I

638
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 4: think a lot of people have the goal to spend

639
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 4: less time on their phone and don't scroll before bed,

640
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 4: and you know that obviously, you know, does have an

641
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 4: impact on our sleep. Is to what I talk about

642
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 4: in the health habit as changing the default. So however

643
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,399
Speaker 4: you set up your environment, if you think about your

644
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 4: physical environment like your home environment or your office environment,

645
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 4: and your digital environment, like what's happening on the homescreen

646
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 4: of your phone, for example, we're programmed to do whatever

647
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,879
Speaker 4: the default is. So let's take not scrolling before bed.

648
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 4: If you charge your phone next to your bed, which

649
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 4: the vast majority of people do, the default behavior then

650
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 4: is to just keep scrolling until you, you know, fall

651
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 4: asleep with your phone on your head or whatever. But

652
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 4: if we can change the default to make the default

653
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 4: choice the one that we're trying to do, like the

654
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 4: desirable choice, if you like, then we're much more likely

655
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 4: to succeed at behavior change. So just by making the

656
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 4: simple change, which I know so many people have, you know,

657
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 4: we talk about it a lot. Add inventium to our

658
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 4: clients is just charge your phone in a different room.

659
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 4: And even like if you're trying to say, cut down

660
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 4: on mindless scrolling throughout the day, if you have to

661
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 4: think about, like how many minutes during the day, and

662
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 4: I'd be curious for you, Paul, like how many minutes

663
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,919
Speaker 4: during your waking hours, let's say sixteen hours during the day.

664
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 4: Is your phone not within arm's reach?

665
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 2: What do you reckon it is?

666
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 1: For you?

667
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it wouldn't be a SHETLLD. My phone is

668
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 3: often around, but I do make a conscious effort to

669
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 3: keep it away on weekends, right, But it has to

670
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 3: be it has to be conscious.

671
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 4: And yeah, because it's like I mean, it's like our

672
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 4: phones are like an extension of ourselves. And so I

673
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 4: heard this tip from a guest I had on the

674
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,720
Speaker 4: How I Work podcast and his guy professor Adam Alter,

675
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:02,320
Speaker 4: and he said, the more you can design your environment

676
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 4: to have your phone not within arms reach, yeah, I

677
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 4: love it, the easier it is to stop unhelpful scrolling behavior. So,

678
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 4: you know, I try to think about that in my

679
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,240
Speaker 4: own life. I'll often, you know, I reckon, I've probably

680
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,720
Speaker 4: got a good few hours a day where my phone

681
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 4: is not within arms reach, Like I'll deliberately leave it

682
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 4: in another room to where I know I'm going to

683
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 4: be for the next few hours.

684
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 2: And that just dramatically changed my relationship with my phone.

685
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 1: I think.

686
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 3: I think it's hugely important today because people just get

687
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 3: sucked into the vortex stimting.

688
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: It's really interesting.

689
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 3: I mean, I've read a frightening statistic the other day

690
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 3: that in America, the average amount of time that.

691
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 1: Teenagers spend on their phones is six hours a day.

692
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

693
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I've started talking about this in corporate workshops, right,

694
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 3: six hours a day. If you extrapolate that over your

695
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 3: life and assume that that's a consistent behavior throughout your life,

696
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 3: if you live to the age of eighty, which most

697
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 3: of us will surpass, that is a total of twenty

698
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 3: years on your phone, every second of every minute of

699
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 3: every day for twenty years, Like, is that the life

700
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 3: that you want? And then you can just you can

701
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 3: do the low Well, if it's two hours a day,

702
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 3: if it's three hours a day that I'm on my phone,

703
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 3: that's a decade of your life looking at frigging other

704
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 3: people's lives, living very curiously through them.

705
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: It's just preposterous, isn't it.

706
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 3: But what you talked about, that whole environmental setup, I

707
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 3: actually I really like that setting up your environment for

708
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 3: what you want. And I like little behaviors that are

709
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 3: enabling behaviors. And I'll tell a little stories, see if

710
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 3: you've get anything similar. So years and years ago I

711
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 3: decided because at a corporate workshop, I remember talking about

712
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 3: two people and it was like, you know, what do

713
00:37:57,960 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 3: you do when you get home?

714
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: It was about that, and.

715
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,439
Speaker 3: So many people said I change into my pajamas. I

716
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 3: was gobsmacked about how many people said they changed into

717
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 3: their pajamas or their TACKI decks or whatever. And I thought,

718
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 3: what Jesus, The whole priming effect of that right is

719
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 3: sit down on your arse for the evening, have a

720
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 3: glass of wine in front of the TV. So I

721
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 3: then I instigated the behavior that I have to this

722
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 3: day that even if I'm traveling, I come home at

723
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,919
Speaker 3: eleven o'clock at night, I get changed into my exercise gear.

724
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: Right, I'll get changed.

725
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 3: Into my exercise gear even if I then take it

726
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 3: off to go to bed, because the whole prime and

727
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 3: I think you have to make it.

728
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: It's one of those things.

729
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 3: I make a rule and I find that you get

730
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 3: changed into your exercise gear. That little priming is about

731
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 3: your active right have more emotion. And then I started

732
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 3: changing my exercise gear and do thirty squads and it

733
00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 3: just changes your energy instantly. Is the little texts or

734
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 3: techniques that you've used or find in the research that

735
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 3: are similar to that that what I call enabling behaviors

736
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 3: that then eneable another behavior.

737
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll take that a step further.

738
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 4: So, so my consultancy Inventium so where we're Behavior changed

739
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,439
Speaker 4: training company. So we work with corporates help them change

740
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 4: behavior for the better. And about five years ago now,

741
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 4: we decided to become a remote first organization, so we

742
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 4: got rid of our office leases in Melbourne and Sydney

743
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 4: around the time that COVID hit. We're already hybrid, so

744
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 4: we're used to working from home and we just thought

745
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 4: we're just going to completely remove officers from the equation

746
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 4: and we just work from wherever, which is for most

747
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 4: of us, are home. And so I'm you know, I'm

748
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 4: speaking to you now from my home office, which is

749
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,359
Speaker 4: also where I do the How I Work podcast and

750
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,919
Speaker 4: you know, anything Inventium related. And you know, generally, because

751
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 4: I spend my days, you know, unless I'm out doing

752
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 4: keynote speaking or you know, in the Melbourne studio doing

753
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,359
Speaker 4: podcast interviews, I'm generally just at home, so I can

754
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 4: only be seen from the waist up. So I will

755
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 4: almost always have like leggings or trackies and my sneakers

756
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 4: on underneath. I generally, I'm you know, I'm a pretty

757
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 4: casual dresser, so I've often just got like a T

758
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 4: shirt or a sweater or a jumper, so it's essentially

759
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 4: active wear. And I do that because I know, if

760
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 4: I'm wearing my sneakers, I'm much more likely to just

761
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 4: go for random walks during the day as opposed to going, oh, well,

762
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 4: I need to get changed out of you know, my

763
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 4: jeans or my heels. Not that I own high heels,

764
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 4: but you know, theoretically, it's like I always just want

765
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 4: to be ready for movement. So that's that's kind of

766
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 4: how I've tried to change my default behavior. And it's

767
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 4: been really deliberate and it's been really really effective.

768
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:45,800
Speaker 1: To let me show you something funny.

769
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, so for those who are just lessening, I'm wearing

770
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 5: a polo shirt on top, and I've got shorts and

771
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 5: trainers on and all the time, and I do my

772
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 5: podcast here, I do zoom.

773
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: Meetings here, and I'm always the butt.

774
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 3: Just two minutes before I call, I run in and

775
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 3: put on a decent looking top and take off my exercise.

776
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: So we are completely aligned on that one.

777
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 3: That's funny, Okay, So let's let's let's shift over and

778
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 3: talk about another area of expertise of yours and your

779
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 3: book time Wise And I love this And one of

780
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:31,280
Speaker 3: the reviewers said it is the Oscars for management thinking

781
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 3: cool is that ship when you heard that.

782
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, look that that was an award I want.

783
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 4: Actually the think is fifty Award for innovation, So that

784
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 4: was that was also very unexpected, that award.

785
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 2: But yes, like lovely lovely, Yeah no, that.

786
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 1: That's pretty cool.

787
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 3: So so you in there, you know, there's the whole thing.

788
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 3: Work smarter, not harder, right, So give us some little tips,

789
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 3: just random ones that you can think of from the book,

790
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:06,240
Speaker 3: Like what what are some of the most effective strategies

791
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 3: or techniques that you have found, whether it's about increasing productivity,

792
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 3: whether it's about reducing procrastination, staying focused, getting into.

793
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 1: Flow, you know, choose your choose your adventure.

794
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, look that the ones that that are just completely

795
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 4: ingrained for me.

796
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 2: Let me go through a few.

797
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 4: Because I've literally on the How I Work podcast, I've

798
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 4: probably heard thousands of different strategies at this point in time. Look,

799
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 4: working to your chronotype is a big one, and it's

800
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 4: something I've done for years, so I think that you know,

801
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 4: more people are kind of a bit familiar with chronotypes.

802
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 4: But essentially it's like are you a morning person, are

803
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 4: you a night person?

804
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 2: Or are you somewhere in between?

805
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 4: Like at its most simple and what I can do,

806
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 4: I'll send you a link to put in the show

807
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 4: notes so people can self assess what they might be.

808
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 4: And you know, the important thing is is that you know,

809
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 4: so many of us when we think about our work days,

810
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 4: is that we're playing defense. You know, we're responding to

811
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 4: whatever meetings have been put in our diary, whatever phone

812
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 4: calls are incoming, emails that are incoming, and it's like,

813
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 4: you know, we're we're you know, it's like we're playing

814
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 4: whack a mole. I kind of think, but to con

815
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 4: you do the sporting analogy where we can be most

816
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 4: effective rather than playing defense and.

817
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 2: Just being like, oh okay, we've got to deal with that.

818
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,359
Speaker 2: I've got to deal with that is actually.

819
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 4: Playing offense and thinking how can I proactively design my

820
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 4: day so it's going to actually be in line with

821
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 4: when I am most alert and when I am focused.

822
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 4: And so I'm what it's called a lark. I'm like

823
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 4: a morning person. I you know, without an alarm, I

824
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 4: naturally wake at about six am, sometimes six point thirty.

825
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 4: And so for me, I know that when I'm thinking

826
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 4: about my most important work or my deep work, like

827
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 4: call Newport writes about, I am at my peak. You know,

828
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 4: between about sort of eight to eleven AM, and so

829
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 4: I typically won't schedule meetings for that time, and my

830
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 4: assistant knows not to put meetings in my diary at

831
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 4: that time unless they're like mission critical, because.

832
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 2: That's my deep work time.

833
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 4: Like that's when I'm doing my most important work where

834
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 4: I really need to focus. So that's one thing, and

835
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 4: that is just completely ingrained into how I work. I

836
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:25,760
Speaker 4: could not imagine working in a different way now something else.

837
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 4: And you know, look a lot of productivity people will

838
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 4: speak about. This is just the power of timeboxing. So

839
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 4: when I am thinking about my deep work, it doesn't

840
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,800
Speaker 4: just say deep work for three hours in my diary.

841
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 4: I've actually booked meetings with myself to work on the

842
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 4: things that I know are the most important things I

843
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 4: need to be working on right now. So like, I'm

844
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 4: looking at my diary at the moment, and you know,

845
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 4: I need to, you know, work on a particular web

846
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 4: page and marketing strategy for a new product that we're

847
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 4: launching in a couple of weeks, and so I have

848
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,840
Speaker 4: got a two hour meeting booked with myself tomorrow to

849
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 4: do that. And so what impact that has is that

850
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 4: when I sit down at my computer tomorrow to start

851
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 4: my deep work session.

852
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 2: Is I'm not procrastinating. I'm not going, Oh, what should

853
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 2: I work on?

854
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:13,879
Speaker 1: What's it right now?

855
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,399
Speaker 2: Instead I'm like, oh, it's in my diary. It's a meeting.

856
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 4: You wouldn't like see a meeting with someone else in

857
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 4: your diary and going I don't know if i'll attend

858
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 4: or not, like, of course you're going to attend. So

859
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 4: I find that that really works the same for me

860
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 4: in terms of just keeping me accountable, keeping me focused,

861
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:31,800
Speaker 4: and trying to reduce procrastination.

862
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 3: Do you know the other benefit I find of time boxing,

863
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 3: because I'm a fan of that as well, where you

864
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 3: actually you know, I'm a big fan of lests, and

865
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 3: I'd have these lists and stuff, but then I started

866
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 3: just putting them in in times in my diary, and

867
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 3: I realized that my realgious optimism bias was manifesting itself

868
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 3: because I'd be going, Oh, get this done and this

869
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 3: done and this done, and then just consistently behind the

870
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 3: ball and realize that just I'm overly optimistic about how

871
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 3: much stuff that I could get done, so so that

872
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,959
Speaker 3: I think I totally agree on both of those things.

873
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: I am like you. I'm a lok.

874
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 3: I do my best work early in the morning, but

875
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 3: that time boxing was really really helpful.

876
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 4: And I want to say, just on that poll, I

877
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 4: remember I've had cal Newport on how I work a

878
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 4: couple of time Oh cool, I have, And I remember

879
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 4: I asked him about, you know, just how do you

880
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 4: get accurate with time boxing? And I know from his

881
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 4: experience he said, the more you do it, the more.

882
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 2: Accurate you get.

883
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,280
Speaker 4: And what I actually do for myself, and I've certainly

884
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 4: found that to be true. But I will always err

885
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 4: on the side of overestimating, like by at least half

886
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 4: an hour, because that way I can really feel like

887
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 4: I'm winning because typically it won't take me as long

888
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:52,840
Speaker 4: as what I've got in my diary. And it's kind of,

889
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 4: you know, it's like it's rigging the game so that

890
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,399
Speaker 4: you win. But you know, from a motivation point of view,

891
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 4: that feels really good. Absolutely Like the people that don't

892
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 4: time box, I would say, overestimate how much time you

893
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 4: think something is going to take, rather than setting yourself

894
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:09,720
Speaker 4: up for failure.

895
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 3: And the other thing I would add to that is

896
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 3: scheduling regular breaks.

897
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 1: You know, I'm a big fan of of.

898
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:21,439
Speaker 3: The whole idea of cognitive gears that that when you're

899
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 3: fresh and your your mind is fresh, your energy is good.

900
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 3: That's when you do the difficult stuff right, the deep work,

901
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 3: the strategic stuff, the creative stuff, and then you just

902
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 3: do you're running the mill stuff and whenever you're you're

903
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 3: you're less cognitively fresh. And the thing that brought that

904
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 3: home to me was the study of judges and it

905
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 3: was a huge So I don't know if you you've

906
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 3: come across this.

907
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: Judge people people.

908
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 3: Coming up for parole, right and what they find, just

909
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 3: for the listeners is that there you were way more

910
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 3: likely to get parole if you got to the judge

911
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 3: first thing in the morning or just after they've had

912
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,359
Speaker 3: a break. And the worst time to go in front

913
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 3: of a judge for parole was just before lunch, at

914
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,240
Speaker 3: the end of the day, when we're cognitively drein because

915
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,240
Speaker 3: the brian becomes more negative.

916
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,320
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

917
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 4: I also do like to, you know, think about making

918
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 4: the big decisions in the morning for that reason. You know,

919
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 4: when we are typically fresher and.

920
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 3: A lot of people the first thing they do in

921
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:35,720
Speaker 3: the morning is they check their email and they're doing

922
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 3: low quality work, they're doing gear for work whenever they're breeding.

923
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:45,720
Speaker 1: Is actually primed. And I actually think, and I say this.

924
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 3: More and more that if your eyes hit your phone

925
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 3: before your feet hit the ground, your life is screwed.

926
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,919
Speaker 3: Like how many people then you'll have seen it. We'll

927
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:03,800
Speaker 3: just wake up in the morning and they'll and and again,

928
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 3: this is the whole idea of your phones besides your bed.

929
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 1: And they'll wake up.

930
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 3: In the morning, they'll roll over and they grab their phone,

931
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:14,839
Speaker 3: and they're getting inputs, inputs, inputs before they even think

932
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 3: about their day, before they think about how they want

933
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 3: to show up, Like all of that's gone, and and jesu,

934
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 3: it's just the amount of people who do that shit.

935
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: It's just unbelievable, isn't it.

936
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:31,720
Speaker 3: Sure it's great for productivity, is it?

937
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:33,240
Speaker 2: It's terrible. It's terrible.

938
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 4: Like you're you're basically starting your day to let other

939
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:40,239
Speaker 4: people set your priorities, which is not a good thing.

940
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: No, it's not a good thing.

941
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:48,839
Speaker 3: So so let what about distractions and any little techniques

942
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 3: about managing distractions, so particularly for people who work from home,

943
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 3: right and and and I'll put my hand up and

944
00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 3: confess to this before my wife gets on the tail.

945
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 3: So it's I get distracted by by two things. I

946
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 3: get distracted by the news, and I get distracted by sport,

947
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 3: whether it's soccer, EPL or boxing.

948
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,359
Speaker 1: There am I distractions? So what what advice would you

949
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 1: give to me?

950
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,399
Speaker 3: And I'm kind of going to sit like this because

951
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 3: I think and it's going to be uncomfortable.

952
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 4: Well, look, like, firstly, don't rely on willpower when it

953
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 4: comes to distractions. So I think like one of the

954
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 4: more effective strategies that I've found, and certainly you know

955
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,319
Speaker 4: something that we have worked with many many of our

956
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:42,799
Speaker 4: clients on is getting website or application blocking software on

957
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 4: your computer and say that so, I mean, look, it's

958
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 4: it's like it's a brute Corse technique and it's really

959
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 4: really effective, like you can't override it, but it's a

960
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 4: bit of a pain in the ass too. So the

961
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:58,799
Speaker 4: most popular ones freedom Freedom Dot two I think is

962
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 4: the website. I think that's still the most popular one.

963
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 4: My favorite on the phone, I mean, you know, look,

964
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,760
Speaker 4: you can change your settings now, you know on iPhone

965
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,879
Speaker 4: and Android devices to lock yourself out of things. But

966
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 4: I do really like the app Forest, which is forest

967
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:21,319
Speaker 4: is in like trees forest, where you program it to basically.

968
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 2: How it works.

969
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 4: Let's just say you want to do sixty minutes of

970
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 4: deep work. You set the tim around forest for sixty minutes,

971
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 4: and during that time it grows a digital tree. Oh

972
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 4: and if you check your phone during that time, you

973
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,720
Speaker 4: kill the tree. And yes, it's just a digital tree.

974
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 4: Although I think they're donating real trees.

975
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 2: I think somewhere real trees.

976
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 1: I think they are.

977
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's like you kill the tree,

978
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 4: and no one wants to kill any kind of a tree,

979
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 4: even if it's digital. So I found that, like when

980
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 4: I was trying to train myself many years ago, I

981
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 4: found those two things really really helpful. Probably though the

982
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 4: thing with my phone is that just keep it out

983
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 4: of arms reach. That's that's really the thing that works

984
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 4: best for me.

985
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

986
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually charged mine on the other side of

987
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 3: the room. I started doing it because I was charging

988
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 3: it there, and it's just I don't know if you

989
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,720
Speaker 3: saw the research on called it's called Briandry in the paper.

990
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 3: If your mobile phone is currently sitting on your desk

991
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:27,320
Speaker 3: upside down on silent, it reduces your working memory capacity

992
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 3: and your fluid intelligence aby at least ten percent, because

993
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 3: they're just attention thieves, aren't they texting?

994
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 1: They could be like on Instagram post you should check. Yeah, exactly,

995
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 1: Sorry I cut you off there. You were about to

996
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 1: say something else.

997
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

998
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:45,800
Speaker 4: I also really like advice that I got from near El,

999
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 4: who is quite a well known author. Yeah.

1000
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 1: I've had him on the podcast.

1001
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:53,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've spoken to him a couple of times,

1002
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 4: and he talks about like just writing the wave of

1003
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 4: discomfort because you can feel it coming on when you

1004
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 4: know the thing that you're working on feels hard and

1005
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 4: I want to just relieve myself with a quick scroll

1006
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 4: on the socials or checking the news. And he says,

1007
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 4: just like set the time up for ten minutes and

1008
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:22,359
Speaker 4: just be aware of those uncomfortable feelings and say to yourself, look,

1009
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 4: if I'm still feeling this way in ten minutes.

1010
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 2: I will let myself scroll on the socials. And typically

1011
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 2: ten minutes is about.

1012
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 4: Long enough for that discomfort to pass and then you

1013
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 4: just get back into flow and you can keep on going.

1014
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 4: So I find that that's quite a helpful simple strategy

1015
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 4: to use.

1016
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's very good.

1017
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 3: And then flipping that towards the end of the day,

1018
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 3: whenever you walk into your house and the little voice

1019
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 3: in your head goes.

1020
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: You've had a hard day. You need a glass of wine.

1021
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 3: You go ten minutes. I'm just going to weit ten minutes.

1022
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 3: I'm going to do twenty squats and I'm going to

1023
00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 3: we it ten minutes. And it's not food proof, but

1024
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 3: there's actually very very useful for people who have that,

1025
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:05,879
Speaker 3: and a lot of people have that automatic. You know,

1026
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:09,280
Speaker 3: it's six o'clock, it's wine, a clark. It's just getting

1027
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 3: through that that I think is really useful. Now we

1028
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 3: are almost out of time. I did want to ask

1029
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 3: you one thing, because you have another great book about

1030
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 3: the creativity formula. Can we switch on creativity? Can we

1031
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 3: warm our bar brallins for creativity? Just one question on this?

1032
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:26,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent.

1033
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 4: Like when it comes to creativity, it's gosh, it's about

1034
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 4: thirty percent genetically predetermined, but the rest is up to us.

1035
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 4: A certainly, my favorite hack for thinking creatively is just

1036
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:40,840
Speaker 4: going on a phone free walk where I've got a

1037
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 4: problem that I'm trying to solve and I just walk

1038
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 4: in silence and I ponder and I see what thoughts

1039
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:50,280
Speaker 4: come to me, and almost every time I will return

1040
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 4: to my office with a fresh set of ideas.

1041
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 1: M Yeah, interesting.

1042
00:54:55,560 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 3: I remember reading about the neuroscience of the Aha moment,

1043
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 3: and it's about gamma activity in the Brian. But just

1044
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:10,279
Speaker 3: before that gamma and that Aha moment, the Brian had

1045
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:13,279
Speaker 3: to be an alpha state. And what you're doing in

1046
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:16,799
Speaker 3: going for a walk is you're reducing your stress. You're

1047
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 3: taking your brain out of beaten, You're putting it into

1048
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 3: alpha state. So I love that, Yeah, because it's just

1049
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:25,239
Speaker 3: it's the way the brain works, right, Very cool, I

1050
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 3: might say this is this has been awesome. We can

1051
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:29,759
Speaker 3: talk about this for ours because there's a whole heap

1052
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 3: of stuff that you've got. I can't believe you've got

1053
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 3: another book on the way. That's that's pretty cool.

1054
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 1: So where can people go to.

1055
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 3: Find out more about you, about your books, about your workshops,

1056
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 3: about INVENTINGUM in general.

1057
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:42,919
Speaker 1: Where do we send them?

1058
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 4: Well, if you're into kind of you know, self development

1059
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 4: improvement stuff, check out the How I Work podcast. And

1060
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 4: for me, I am very easy to find on the socials.

1061
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:58,800
Speaker 4: LinkedIn is probably where I spend most time. So Amantha

1062
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 4: imbat like Samantha with out the s and like Timber

1063
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 4: without the tea, and my LinkedIn generally leads to all

1064
00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:09,439
Speaker 4: sorts of places like the Inventing website and Theamantha dot

1065
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 4: com website.

1066
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 3: So that's the easiest awesome.

1067
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 1: We will put that in socials.

1068
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 3: Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge and keep

1069
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:19,480
Speaker 3: being an awesome procademic.

1070
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 2: Thank you, Paul, thank you