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Speaker 1: Apote production.

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Speaker 2: It started out as a prospecting trip a couple, Ray

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Speaker 2: and Jenny Kellett heading out to the remote gold fields

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Speaker 2: of Western Australia with a friend, chasing the promise of

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Speaker 2: striking it rich. It was March twenty fifteen when they

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Speaker 2: packed their tent, their dog and drove hundreds of kilometers

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Speaker 2: into the red dirt. But what was supposed to be

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Speaker 2: an adventure turned into a mystery that has haunted their

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Speaker 2: family and the community ever since. It was a camping

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Speaker 2: trip in the outback, three prospectors hunting for gold.

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Speaker 3: Only one came home.

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Speaker 2: By the end of that trip, Ray was found dead

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Speaker 2: at the bottom of a remote mind shaft. Jenny was

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Speaker 2: never seen again, and the man who was with them,

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Speaker 2: a man with extensive emergency service training, a history in

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Speaker 2: that exact location and a story that kept changing, walked

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Speaker 2: away without a single charge. It's a decade long murder mystery,

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Speaker 2: the case of Ray and Jenny Keller, who vanished in

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Speaker 2: WA's Outback. A coronial in quest in twenty twenty determined

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Speaker 2: Ray had been murdered and Jenny was declared deceased, but

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Speaker 2: to this day no one has been held accountable.

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Speaker 3: You just need answers, You just need to know what

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Speaker 3: happened so that you can accept it.

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Speaker 2: In this episode of The Missing Matter, the story of

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Speaker 2: Ray and Jenny Kellert.

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Speaker 4: Welcome everybody to the Missing Matter Podcast. Today I have

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Speaker 4: the privilege of talking to a gentleman by the name

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Speaker 4: of Dave Kellett. Dave is joining me to discuss the

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Speaker 4: suspicious circumstances into the death of his brother Ray Kellett

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Speaker 4: and his wife Jenny Kellett, initially reported missing on March

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Speaker 4: thirty first in twenty fifteen. Ray and Jenny had been

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Speaker 4: planning for months about an exciting trip gold prospecting in

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Speaker 4: out back western Australia with a work colleague, Graham Milne,

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Speaker 4: with the hope of striking it rich. Venturing about thirty

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Speaker 4: kilometers south of a tiny town named Sandstone that lies

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Speaker 4: roughly six hundred and fifty kilometers northwest of Perth, taking

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Speaker 4: their beloved great dane Ella with them and a satellite

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Speaker 4: phone for emergencies. No one could have ever imagined what

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Speaker 4: would happen next. Dave Kellett, thank you for coming on

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Speaker 4: to the Missing Matter Podcast.

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Speaker 3: Thanks Sally, thanks for the opportunity.

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Speaker 4: I've been instrumental in driving Ray and Jenny's story in

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Speaker 4: the media and ensuring authorities don't drop the ball.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about Ray and

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Speaker 1: Jenny and what made them special to you?

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Speaker 3: So, Ray was my big brother. There was three boys, myself, Ray,

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Speaker 3: and mal I was the youngest. I guess the obvious

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Speaker 3: answer to what makes them special to me is that

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Speaker 3: Ray was my big brother. But also Ray and Jenny

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Speaker 3: in many ways are reflection of my current life with

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Speaker 3: my wife. We both met around the same time, and yeah,

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Speaker 3: a lot of similarities in our relationships, So I guess

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Speaker 3: it's a twofold answer to that question.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and I know your wife has the same name

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Speaker 4: as me. Her name is Sally as well, so she

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Speaker 4: must be a great human. I know that your Sally

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Speaker 4: has been standing by your side and doing lots of

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Speaker 4: this hard work with you as well, so kudos to her.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah, it's a very tough road in all aspects

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Speaker 3: of that relationship, and she unless she has she's she's

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Speaker 3: been probably in some ways the most instrumental person in

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Speaker 3: the ongoing saga trying to get resolution for everyone.

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Speaker 4: Well, this year was the tenth anniversary of Ray's death

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Speaker 4: and Jenny going missing. How have you been coping with

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Speaker 4: the ongoing ambiguity of that.

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Speaker 3: Well. I don't think anyone could understand it unless they've

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Speaker 3: lived through it. I know you have for much longer.

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Speaker 3: We sort of use an analogy of it. It's a

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Speaker 3: badly built roller coaster because you sort of go through

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Speaker 3: these monumental highs when you think something's going to happen,

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Speaker 3: and then you know quickly, often followed by an abysmal low,

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Speaker 3: and then you have long, long stretches of nothing. So

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Speaker 3: coping with it, I guess in some ways you get

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Speaker 3: used to it, unfortunately, but also you know there's no

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Speaker 3: chance of giving up. There's no point in giving up,

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Speaker 3: so we just continue the journey as best we can

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Speaker 3: deal with it as it comes.

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Speaker 4: It's a big rollercoaster ride, isn't it? The ups and lows,

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Speaker 4: and it's a.

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Speaker 3: Bit like a carnival really, which you didn't choose to attend.

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Speaker 3: It's likely you bought the ticket for it, and you're

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Speaker 3: just thrust in there. And yeah.

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Speaker 4: So between Jenny and Ray this was their second marriage,

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Speaker 4: which they got married in two thousand and seven. They've

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Speaker 4: got five kids between the two of them. How are

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Speaker 4: the kids holding up and dealing with this horrible situation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're in a similar way. I guess they're just

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Speaker 3: trying to continue with their life with as much normalcy

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Speaker 3: as possible. I don't tend to approach Jenny's kids much

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Speaker 3: because I think it's a bit too raw to reach out.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I think they mentioned in the Spotlight program

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Speaker 3: in particular how tough it's been on them and they

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Speaker 3: haven't been able to grieve properly for Jenny raised the orders.

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Speaker 3: The oldest daughter, Charmain's had two children since the events,

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Speaker 3: so she's a school teacher and two kids, so she's very,

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Speaker 3: very busy. And Mel's out of all of them, I

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Speaker 3: guess she's sort of the one that wants to know

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Speaker 3: every detail as much as possible, So I guess she

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Speaker 3: copes with it by the same as the rest of

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Speaker 3: us in just trying to get those answers.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, there's been a lot of media coverage on

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Speaker 4: the story over the last ten years, and you know,

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Speaker 4: like you've had Sunday Night under investigation. More recently, Channel

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Speaker 4: seven did a Spotlight interview and the kids did appear

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Speaker 4: on some of those shows as well.

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Speaker 1: It must be really.

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Speaker 4: Hard for them to put themselves in that position and

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Speaker 4: the not knowing and the situation that we have found Ray,

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Speaker 4: but we haven't found Jenny yet.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. The media part of it has been continuous since

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Speaker 3: day one. Really, I remember right back at the very start,

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Speaker 3: all the rain Jeannie's sort of progeny were wheeled out

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Speaker 3: in front of media packs from time to time, and

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Speaker 3: when you see those clips, you can see the strain

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Speaker 3: that it puts on them. There was a good example

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Speaker 3: a couple of years ago. WA Police actually did a

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Speaker 3: podcast that called it Cold Case Wa which they wanted

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Speaker 3: us to be evolved in, which we did initially, but

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Speaker 3: the initial reaction from the way that Kelly put it,

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Speaker 3: in particular, when Jenny's daughter, she said that she didn't

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Speaker 3: want to sort of be involved unless she could be honest.

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Speaker 3: She didn't want the public humiliation unless she could be

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Speaker 3: completely honest with those interviews. And one of the key

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Speaker 3: phrases she used was performative grief, which I thought was

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Speaker 3: a really good way of putting it. You would have

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Speaker 3: experienced it over the years as well. You get put

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Speaker 3: on camera or on even a newspaper article, and you're

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Speaker 3: expected to be to open your whole chest up and

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Speaker 3: reveal it to everyone, and it's brutal, especially if you're young.

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Speaker 3: Luck they were all right.

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Speaker 4: Well, let's talk a little bit about Ray and Jenny,

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Speaker 4: learn about who they were, what we can do to

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Speaker 4: help find Journey, and what happened to Ray. They're in

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Speaker 4: their late forties working fly in and fly out minds

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Speaker 4: all across WA, including the Pilbra region. Can you tell

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Speaker 4: us about Ray and Jenny's personalities, any interests that they had,

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Speaker 4: and any particular memories that stand out to you.

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Speaker 3: Still they were both very hard working people. I've had

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Speaker 3: many messages and that over the years from people they

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Speaker 3: worked with, and they were very well respected, both of

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Speaker 3: them in their respective roles. And they were the same

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Speaker 3: in their own community. Very selfless from reports from people,

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Speaker 3: you know, were always going out of their way to

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Speaker 3: help and assist other people.

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Speaker 1: And they came across tough to me, you know.

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Speaker 3: Like, oh, you're very resilient.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Like I mean, Ray as a plant manager and

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Speaker 4: Jenny used to drive one of those really big ion trucks.

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Speaker 1: Is that right or have I got that right?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Prior to that, they did start their own business together.

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Speaker 3: They had a rural agricultural business that they ran together

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Speaker 3: and they worked daylight to dark together. So yeah, I

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Speaker 3: think you probably would have heard over the years as

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Speaker 3: a common term they say about Ray and Jenny as

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Speaker 3: they were laminated together, and that's sort of respective of that.

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Speaker 3: You know, they really did do everything together.

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Speaker 4: One of the things that I noted was that Jenny

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Speaker 4: was an avid diary writer. Her last date of entry

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Speaker 4: in her diary was the eighteenth of March. Do you

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Speaker 4: know what she wrote in that last entry and why

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Speaker 4: it was important?

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Speaker 3: I do. Both of them were avid diary writers. I

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Speaker 3: think that comes from that rural sort of background. Jenny's

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Speaker 3: last entry was hopefully go to the whole fingers crossed

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Speaker 3: and that was it. Yeah, nothing after that, and it

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Speaker 3: was pretty much daily entries up to that point.

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Speaker 1: And did she take that diary with her do you know?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? She did. That was found in her vehicle.

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Speaker 4: I've read that it's been suggested that a man who

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Speaker 4: will talk more about throughout this podcast. I am sure

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Speaker 4: his name is Graham Milne, possibly sold the idea to

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Speaker 4: Ray and Jenny that they could strike it rich. Can

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Speaker 4: you tell us more about the lead up to the

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Speaker 4: trip the trio did together in March twenty fifteen to

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Speaker 4: Sandstone which was six hundred and fifty kilometers from where

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Speaker 4: they lived.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so during the inquest we got to hear all

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Speaker 3: the correspondence between particularly Ray and and Milne. Once the

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Speaker 3: puzzle was all put together, we found out the timeline was.

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Speaker 3: So they're all working on the same mind sight, which

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Speaker 3: is called cloud break in the pilbro As we said before,

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Speaker 3: Ray and Jenny working as operators. Milne was an emergency

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Speaker 3: services officer, so he was in a medics hunt and

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Speaker 3: Jenny had a bad back, so she went in to

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Speaker 3: see the medics for some pain relief and unfortunately on

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Speaker 3: that particular swing bumped into mister Milk. And there's some

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Speaker 3: dodgy parts of that. Apparently he offered her a massage

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Speaker 3: or something inappropriate. So when she was going to see

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Speaker 3: him for pain medication or whatever the services were, they

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Speaker 3: would go together. So Ray would accompany Jenny and in

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Speaker 3: the course of those conversations, as you do, you know,

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Speaker 3: you talk about what you're up to elsewhere, and it

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Speaker 3: comes turned out that Milne is an avid prospector. We

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Speaker 3: don't know the exact details of it, but shortly thereafter

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Speaker 3: they started planning the trip, he was teaching them ab

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Speaker 3: sailing rope work. It wasn't just a quick trip. They'd

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Speaker 3: plan it for months with all their resources and training.

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Speaker 3: It seems very evident that he told them that he

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Speaker 3: knew of a particular spot that they could go and

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Speaker 3: strike it rich out in the gold fields.

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Speaker 4: That area was known for gold mining, right, that was

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Speaker 4: a bit of a gold mining hub if you like.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's one of the original areas in that particular

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Speaker 3: part of the gold fields that they first started mining.

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Speaker 3: There's mine shafts all the way through there from the

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Speaker 3: century ago and Sandstone.

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Speaker 4: It's a town that is less than eighty six people

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Speaker 4: in the town. It's quite small, and you know, some

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Speaker 4: of the interviews I've seen where people were making note

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Speaker 4: that these people were coming into town and making a

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Speaker 4: note of it because they had their caravans and they

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Speaker 4: were like, oh, they're starting early this season, Like there's

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Speaker 4: already people coming in to go prospecting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. You can't sort of fathom how remote that region

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Speaker 3: is utuntil you go up there. There's hundreds of kilometers

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Speaker 3: in between towns and the towns are very small where

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Speaker 3: it's not particularly a place that you would go with

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Speaker 3: the idea of striking it rich you might go out

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Speaker 3: there for the experience and find enough gold to cover

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Speaker 3: your costs, but it's not somewhere where you're going to

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Speaker 3: go and find three million dollars worth of gold, which

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Speaker 3: is one of the things that come out of their

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Speaker 3: chorus despondents. So it does seem very evident that they

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Speaker 3: were lurid there on a false promise. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 3: should mention they didn't just go up there once. They

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Speaker 3: went up a fortnight before, but they couldn't get into

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Speaker 3: the region because it had been rained out, so they

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Speaker 3: had stayed two days hoping it would stop raining and

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Speaker 3: the roads would open, but it didn't, so they turned

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Speaker 3: back and then went back again a fortnight later. And

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Speaker 3: knowing Ray and Jenny in particularly, it wasn't like they

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Speaker 3: were particularly frugal, so it's not like they would do

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Speaker 3: that unless they did have some promise of a result.

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Speaker 4: Well, I mentioned earlier that Ray and Jenny had a

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Speaker 4: rescue great Dane named Ella, who became part of their threesome.

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Speaker 1: If you like, never left their side and wheneverywhere with them.

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Speaker 4: Can you tell us why Ella played such a big

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Speaker 4: part in this story.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So they rescued Ella when she was around three

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Speaker 3: years old from the Great Dane Lovers Association of WA

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Speaker 3: and she was immediately again laminated to them. She just know,

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Speaker 3: it was like an immediate connection. That was six years

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Speaker 3: prior to the events. So she was nine years old

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Speaker 3: when they went on their trip, and she's done plenty

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Speaker 3: of camping trips with them before, so there wouldn't have

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Speaker 3: been any concern. How she become instrumental in it is

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Speaker 3: that she eventually made her way into town, which is

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Speaker 3: quite remarkable. It was about thirty kilometers into town of

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Speaker 3: Sandstone and that's what ultimately raised the flag that something

250
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Speaker 3: had gone wrong.

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Speaker 4: And so that was on March twenty eighth. So if

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Speaker 4: we just do a bit of a timeline, we've got

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Speaker 4: Jenny writing in her diary for the last time on

254
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Speaker 4: the eighteenth of March, and then ten days later, on

255
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Speaker 4: the twenty eighth, Ella is found making her way through

256
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Speaker 4: the caravan park at Sandstone, and I believe them park

257
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Speaker 4: manager then tried to get a vet in, but there

258
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Speaker 4: was no vet on site at the time until the

259
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Speaker 4: thirty first of March that they were able to scan

260
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Speaker 4: the micro trip in Ella.

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Speaker 1: And at that point mel.

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Speaker 4: Who's raised daughter, she was listed as a second contact

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Speaker 4: for Ella and her partner. Elizabeth was the one who

264
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Speaker 4: received the call that Ella had been found, and not

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Speaker 4: in a great way, as you said, thirty kilometers from

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Speaker 4: the campsite where Ray and Jenny were known to be.

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Speaker 4: What was the immediate reaction when that call came through.

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Speaker 3: Well, I guess a bit of disbelief. I think I've

269
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Speaker 3: heard it described by Jenny's kids that they panicked thinking

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Speaker 3: that Ella had gone missing and Ray Jenny might be

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Speaker 3: in a panic about that. So the immediate reaction was

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Speaker 3: when Elizabeth took the call, they had been left with

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Speaker 3: a satellite phone number because there's no mobile reception where

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Speaker 3: Ray Jenny were camped at the time. The first thing

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Speaker 3: she did was to call that number and Milne answered it,

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Speaker 3: so the satellite phone was no longer with Ray and Jenny.

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Speaker 3: So then she called the rest of the family. I'd

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Speaker 3: find out if anyone knew anything, and finding that no

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Speaker 3: one did, she contacted Mount Police, which was the closest

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Speaker 3: police station to Sandstone, and launched them missing persons report.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so this is always a very triggering question, but

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Speaker 4: can you share with us what the day of their

283
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Speaker 4: disappearance was like for you and your family.

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Speaker 3: For Ray and Jenny's kids in particular, it was panic

285
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Speaker 3: stations because no one knew actually exactly where they were,

286
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Speaker 3: because there was another part of the lead up to

287
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Speaker 3: the trip is that they didn't share their location and

288
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Speaker 3: because it was so remote, so I was just trying

289
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Speaker 3: to get that missing the person's report into police. And

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Speaker 3: then because Rain Jenny was so experienced in bush and

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Speaker 3: camping and that, I don't think anyone thought anything bad

292
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Speaker 3: had happened because it would be so out of character

293
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Speaker 3: if it did. So I think people perhaps thought or

294
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Speaker 3: maybe an accident of some description has happened, you know,

295
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Speaker 3: So I think everyone didn't believe anything too bad had happened.

296
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Speaker 3: But obviously there's still that panic that not knowing exactly

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Speaker 3: where they were or what had happened.

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Speaker 4: And I think it's strange too when you look at

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Speaker 4: the story and you know that Ella was so connected

300
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Speaker 4: to them and would stay by their side, it seemed

301
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Speaker 4: a little bit odd that she would be making her

302
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Speaker 4: way thirty kilometers and make it into the caravan park

303
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Speaker 4: in town.

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Speaker 1: I think that's quite remarkable.

305
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Speaker 3: Yeah, she would have gone all that time without any food,

306
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Speaker 3: because when they found the campsite. There was even some

307
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Speaker 3: meat that had been left out defrosting on one of

308
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Speaker 3: the tables and she didn't even touch that. That's how

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Speaker 3: well behaved she was.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So, Dave, when did you go something's wrong, Like,

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Speaker 4: something's not right.

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Speaker 3: I guess it was that my wife was home. I

313
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Speaker 3: was overseas still, so she received a call from my

314
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Speaker 3: dad saying that just the heads up. Ray and Jennyer

315
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Speaker 3: reported missing, and also, you know it'll be on the news.

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Speaker 3: So I can't even describe how mental it was at

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Speaker 3: that period of time, because it was like every time

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Speaker 3: you turn the TV or to open a newspaper and

319
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Speaker 3: there was Ray and Jenny, and so you still got

320
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Speaker 3: in the back of your mind that nothing bad would

321
00:18:07,201 --> 00:18:10,840
Speaker 3: have happened because it's not in their character. But then

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Speaker 3: you know, a couple of days goes passed and it

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Speaker 3: just hits you. You go into that full fight or

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Speaker 3: flight mode panic.

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Speaker 4: You know, yeah, something's wrong, and you know like it

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Speaker 4: was the biggest and the most expensive search undertaken in

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Speaker 4: WA history, and there was media everywhere like it's a

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Speaker 4: double edged sword, isn't it right, Because you really want

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Speaker 4: to get the story out there. But as you say,

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Speaker 4: it's quite traumatic to sit there and see yourself or

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Speaker 4: see your family member on the news, and sometimes that

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Speaker 4: information is not correct either, is it.

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Speaker 3: You know, with the media, like Sandstone being such a

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Speaker 3: small town, that period of time was a complete circus

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Speaker 3: because you had morning meetings in one of the community

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Speaker 3: halls and they had a full sort of media presence

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00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,521
Speaker 3: there as well. So sort of you drove in there

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Speaker 3: and you've got one hundred blue and orange uniforms milling

339
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Speaker 3: around getting ready for the day, and then in the

340
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Speaker 3: background there's a circus of media, just absolute mental And

341
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Speaker 3: I spent a few days in Sandstone and not one

342
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Speaker 3: of them twigged that I was Ray's brother. So we

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00:19:18,721 --> 00:19:21,561
Speaker 3: managed to sort of listen in on all the conversations

344
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Speaker 3: and try and get some information out of it. That way,

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Speaker 3: you can imagine some of the discussions, particularly by some

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00:19:27,721 --> 00:19:30,041
Speaker 3: of the media people at the time, because they were

347
00:19:30,681 --> 00:19:36,201
Speaker 3: trying to construct their own narratives about it all.

348
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Speaker 4: You have done an extensive job of putting together your timeline.

349
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Speaker 4: What are the standout points that you feel most vital

350
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Speaker 4: for people who might be hearing about Ray and Jenny

351
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Speaker 4: for the first time.

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Speaker 3: So we did know about the training and planning for

353
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Speaker 3: the trip. We knew about the mud map, we knew

354
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Speaker 3: about Jenny's diary entry and stuff like that, but we

355
00:19:56,120 --> 00:19:59,961
Speaker 3: didn't really know too much else on that initial timeline.

356
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Speaker 3: During the inquest, we find out that Milne's GPS pings

357
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,160
Speaker 3: in for where he was versus where he said he was,

358
00:20:08,241 --> 00:20:12,281
Speaker 3: which were very different. There was a sighting couple sided

359
00:20:12,321 --> 00:20:15,200
Speaker 3: who they firmly believe was Mill on the side of

360
00:20:15,201 --> 00:20:18,080
Speaker 3: the road on the twenty second of March in the morning,

361
00:20:18,241 --> 00:20:21,321
Speaker 3: heading in the opposite direction to what he suggests he said.

362
00:20:21,801 --> 00:20:25,681
Speaker 3: Also where Ray was found, there was some other campers

363
00:20:25,721 --> 00:20:28,561
Speaker 3: that were in that area around the same time they

364
00:20:29,281 --> 00:20:31,120
Speaker 3: made away into town, so they weren't there over the

365
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,641
Speaker 3: initial period of time, but they were there later and

366
00:20:33,681 --> 00:20:37,200
Speaker 3: they reported a smell coming from where Ray was initially found,

367
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,321
Speaker 3: and that was cleared twice by police in the initial search.

368
00:20:42,521 --> 00:20:45,161
Speaker 3: And I know you've just recently gone through a coronial

369
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Speaker 3: inquest that you appreciate. You know, you have limited knowledge prior,

370
00:20:50,201 --> 00:20:52,720
Speaker 3: and then when you go through the detail and you

371
00:20:52,761 --> 00:20:56,641
Speaker 3: hear all these things, it's just unbelievable. You just slaping

372
00:20:56,721 --> 00:20:59,680
Speaker 3: yourself against the face every day with just information We

373
00:20:59,761 --> 00:21:00,681
Speaker 3: never even heard of.

374
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Speaker 1: From someone who's living it as well.

375
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Speaker 4: Why do you think it is that the police don't

376
00:21:05,761 --> 00:21:10,401
Speaker 4: share with the families of missing people. I understand their

377
00:21:10,441 --> 00:21:14,640
Speaker 4: whole we don't want to jeopardize the information, but I

378
00:21:14,681 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 4: just don't understand why as the family we're not given

379
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,600
Speaker 4: that information, especially at that point where we're sort of

380
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,801
Speaker 4: putting it all out on the table to find the answers.

381
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:26,160
Speaker 1: How do you feel about that?

382
00:21:27,041 --> 00:21:30,680
Speaker 3: Well, the official answer, which is somewhat justified, is that

383
00:21:30,721 --> 00:21:33,881
Speaker 3: if it is an active investigation and they're trying to

384
00:21:33,961 --> 00:21:36,880
Speaker 3: put a case file together, then if they share that

385
00:21:36,961 --> 00:21:40,880
Speaker 3: information then it becomes somewhat unusable later on if it

386
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:45,000
Speaker 3: ever goes to court. That's the official statement. But you know,

387
00:21:45,681 --> 00:21:49,840
Speaker 3: we've had very frustrating attempts at trying to get freed

388
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,680
Speaker 3: of information and that for rain Jenny over the years,

389
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 3: most of it's redacted or you just don't get it

390
00:21:55,120 --> 00:22:00,321
Speaker 3: at all. I understand the processes that they have to

391
00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:02,641
Speaker 3: go through. But at the same time, which I did

392
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 3: want to talk to you about, we're actually putting a

393
00:22:05,561 --> 00:22:07,761
Speaker 3: petition together at the moment. We met up with a

394
00:22:07,801 --> 00:22:11,681
Speaker 3: few members of other families of long term missing person's cases,

395
00:22:12,321 --> 00:22:15,801
Speaker 3: because it is quite common if someone's been missing for

396
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,920
Speaker 3: a period of time and there's no new information, the

397
00:22:19,001 --> 00:22:22,321
Speaker 3: file is just at the bottom of the basket. I'm

398
00:22:22,360 --> 00:22:23,920
Speaker 3: not sure what it's like on the East Coast, but

399
00:22:24,041 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 3: here in Wa we have the Missing Persons Unit, which

400
00:22:28,441 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 3: from what I've heard, has a total of eight police

401
00:22:31,561 --> 00:22:36,321
Speaker 3: officers and there's three hundred and sixty four active long

402
00:22:36,441 --> 00:22:40,481
Speaker 3: term missing person's cases. So the families that we met

403
00:22:40,561 --> 00:22:44,961
Speaker 3: up with had engaged private investigators or private searchers, so

404
00:22:45,001 --> 00:22:47,801
Speaker 3: they obviously wanted to get information from the police so

405
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,360
Speaker 3: that they could hand that over and you just don't

406
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,281
Speaker 3: get it, which is totally unfair.

407
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,921
Speaker 4: Okay, let's talk about the police investigation from the initial

408
00:22:55,961 --> 00:22:59,961
Speaker 4: report where something was wrong. Can you walk through what

409
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:01,201
Speaker 4: was happening at this point.

410
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 3: So the initial response was made police with the local station,

411
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,961
Speaker 3: which is one hundred and fifty odd kilometers from where

412
00:23:09,961 --> 00:23:13,961
Speaker 3: they were. They sent some Shire workers out initially who

413
00:23:14,001 --> 00:23:17,041
Speaker 3: retrieves raised rifles. So I could say a lot about

414
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,360
Speaker 3: that because that's been detrimental to evidence.

415
00:23:19,521 --> 00:23:22,201
Speaker 4: When you say it was detrimental, was that because they

416
00:23:22,281 --> 00:23:27,401
Speaker 4: just took them and they didn't take photographs or DNA.

417
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,041
Speaker 3: Or yeah, because obviously if it's not handled forensically then

418
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,120
Speaker 3: it's contaminated. Yeah, just in the court of law, that's

419
00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:38,801
Speaker 3: immediate contamination if it's not picked up correctly by train police,

420
00:23:39,561 --> 00:23:42,681
Speaker 3: and that's no fault of the Shire workers. They were

421
00:23:43,241 --> 00:23:47,481
Speaker 3: directed to do that. So the initial search they did

422
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:53,721
Speaker 3: overnight aircraft search, so with infrared technology. Then the LandSAR

423
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,400
Speaker 3: search started the next day, so they had sees and

424
00:23:57,481 --> 00:24:01,161
Speaker 3: police and helicopters and all that up there. And yeah,

425
00:24:01,281 --> 00:24:04,801
Speaker 3: like you said before, it's deemed the most expensive ex

426
00:24:05,201 --> 00:24:07,880
Speaker 3: stiff search in WA history, which we should be very

427
00:24:07,961 --> 00:24:12,120
Speaker 3: thankful for. The immediate search area was around the camp.

428
00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:16,160
Speaker 3: They had mister Milne go up there to assist. He

429
00:24:16,241 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 3: directed them to the southeast. He said that that's the

430
00:24:19,921 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 3: direction that they were intending on prospecting. So the first

431
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,801
Speaker 3: search was that it was around the camp. As I

432
00:24:26,801 --> 00:24:30,201
Speaker 3: said before, there was a smell emanating from where ray

433
00:24:30,321 --> 00:24:34,201
Speaker 3: was eventually found. But that hole was then cleared twice

434
00:24:34,360 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 3: by police from above. They didn't they hadn't roped down

435
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:38,561
Speaker 3: in that stage and.

436
00:24:38,521 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 4: So could they not smell the odor? Like I was.

437
00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:47,920
Speaker 3: At, very long story. Yeah, So the initial police that

438
00:24:48,001 --> 00:24:51,161
Speaker 3: went out there from Mount Magnet. He went out there

439
00:24:51,201 --> 00:24:53,801
Speaker 3: with one of the other shy workers. They knew about

440
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 3: the report of the smell, so they went investigated. The

441
00:24:57,681 --> 00:25:00,321
Speaker 3: camp has directed them to that hole, said that there's

442
00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 3: a smell coming from that hole. So young constable from

443
00:25:04,561 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 3: Mount Mage and a very experienced prospector from the Shire

444
00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:11,961
Speaker 3: of Sandstone were there and in the coroner's court the

445
00:25:12,281 --> 00:25:15,761
Speaker 3: police officer said that he looked around the hole and

446
00:25:15,801 --> 00:25:18,401
Speaker 3: he saw a dead kangaroo, so he assumed that that's

447
00:25:18,441 --> 00:25:21,241
Speaker 3: where the smell was coming from. And trust me, if

448
00:25:21,241 --> 00:25:24,521
Speaker 3: you see the terrain there, that makes no sense whatsoever.

449
00:25:24,961 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 3: So they did smell a smell, but he's said it

450
00:25:27,721 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 3: was a dead kangaroo, not coming from the hole, right.

451
00:25:30,681 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 3: And then the prospect the guy said that the smell

452
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,721
Speaker 3: was definitely coming from the hole. You could see flies

453
00:25:36,761 --> 00:25:40,681
Speaker 3: and etc. And he said that the police officer actually

454
00:25:40,761 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 3: recoiled from the smell, but yeah, it just went nowhere.

455
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,201
Speaker 4: So there's a missing person and there's a smell it's

456
00:25:48,241 --> 00:25:50,721
Speaker 4: emanating out of it, and someone's saying it's in the hole,

457
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,761
Speaker 4: and they just go on, it must be the dead kangaroo.

458
00:25:53,961 --> 00:25:55,321
Speaker 1: There's a missing person.

459
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 4: There's two missing people, actually like that just frustrates the

460
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:00,360
Speaker 4: life out of me.

461
00:26:01,041 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 3: So the next day the terg went up there. The

462
00:26:03,961 --> 00:26:07,681
Speaker 3: tactical response. They were tasked with searching all the mine

463
00:26:07,721 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 3: shafts and from above.

464
00:26:09,241 --> 00:26:11,561
Speaker 4: Okay, and how many holes are we talking?

465
00:26:11,801 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 2: Like?

466
00:26:11,921 --> 00:26:13,281
Speaker 1: How many have we got up there?

467
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,041
Speaker 3: So you're seeing the reports they said that they cleared

468
00:26:16,041 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 3: one hundred and odd line shafts, but the reality is

469
00:26:19,241 --> 00:26:22,321
Speaker 3: most of those wind shafts are either collapsed or divots

470
00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 3: in the ground. The open shafts similar to Ray's or

471
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,961
Speaker 3: even deeper. I think it's about close to forty. Yeah,

472
00:26:29,961 --> 00:26:33,640
Speaker 3: they're everywhere anyway. So you looked down the hole, couldn't

473
00:26:33,681 --> 00:26:37,481
Speaker 3: see anything, and deemed it clear. And then the next

474
00:26:37,561 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 3: day or the Calbarrydfesse or SES teams roping experts because

475
00:26:42,961 --> 00:26:44,921
Speaker 3: of the cliffs and that up there, so they came

476
00:26:45,001 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 3: up and they tried it. They didn't go down, but

477
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 3: they sort of put themselves in a position where they

478
00:26:49,681 --> 00:26:53,041
Speaker 3: could see more directly down the holes. So they did

479
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,241
Speaker 3: that and deemed it clear because there was no one

480
00:26:55,281 --> 00:26:56,201
Speaker 3: at the base.

481
00:26:56,321 --> 00:26:58,881
Speaker 1: At this point when he was found.

482
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,161
Speaker 4: He wasn't directly in that line of sight, was he

483
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 4: He was over to the side. No, you make out

484
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 4: that someone potentially moved him and he couldn't be seen

485
00:27:09,281 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 4: if they were looking down the hole, Like, what do

486
00:27:11,281 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 4: you make of that?

487
00:27:12,241 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 3: Yes, I'd make that exactly. And the guy that eventually

488
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,201
Speaker 3: did find ray, his testimony was it appeared that he'd

489
00:27:20,241 --> 00:27:24,361
Speaker 3: been dragged and that was based on their training. When

490
00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 3: you move people, you grab people by the ankles, and

491
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,921
Speaker 3: that's he said that to him. That's what it appeared

492
00:27:29,961 --> 00:27:32,481
Speaker 3: that he had been dragged off to the side.

493
00:27:32,921 --> 00:27:37,041
Speaker 4: I believe that it was about three weeks later when

494
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,001
Speaker 4: the media came out and there was a re enactment

495
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 4: done of how they were searching into a mine shaft.

496
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 3: So the first search was based to the south, so

497
00:27:49,681 --> 00:27:52,561
Speaker 3: they were set up near where Angelny were camped. And

498
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,521
Speaker 3: then they found the mud map in Jenny's diary, so

499
00:27:56,561 --> 00:27:59,561
Speaker 3: they moved the search north because there's a marketing on

500
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,721
Speaker 3: the mud map to the north. So that search kicked

501
00:28:02,761 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 3: off and the media all swarmed all over again. The

502
00:28:06,481 --> 00:28:09,841
Speaker 3: whole region was shut off, was cordoned off because they

503
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,120
Speaker 3: didn't want any people in there, but they let the

504
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 3: media in there. So it was on the eighth of

505
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,441
Speaker 3: April they had the defense guys back up there and

506
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,360
Speaker 3: they were going to do more thorough searches of the

507
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 3: mine shafts, so Channel nine it was. They convinced the

508
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,961
Speaker 3: defense guys to do a re enactment of what they

509
00:28:29,041 --> 00:28:32,120
Speaker 3: had been doing with their searches, and coincidentally with the

510
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 3: second search, their new setup was only a couple hundred

511
00:28:35,681 --> 00:28:40,001
Speaker 3: meters away from where race remains were found. So they

512
00:28:40,481 --> 00:28:43,841
Speaker 3: pretty much said, okay, we'll pick this shaft because it's

513
00:28:43,881 --> 00:28:46,841
Speaker 3: the most convenient, it's the easiest one for us to do.

514
00:28:47,601 --> 00:28:50,201
Speaker 3: They just went up there, they set up their equipment.

515
00:28:50,881 --> 00:28:54,721
Speaker 3: They just drape a rope protector over the hole there.

516
00:28:54,721 --> 00:28:58,161
Speaker 3: They put their harnesses on cameras rolling and down he went.

517
00:28:59,121 --> 00:29:02,161
Speaker 3: So the good part about that was perhaps he tried

518
00:29:02,201 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 3: a bit harder because he was on camera, and he

519
00:29:04,281 --> 00:29:07,881
Speaker 3: went deeper than he possibly would have otherwise. And the

520
00:29:07,881 --> 00:29:10,761
Speaker 3: mind shafts twelve to fifteen meters deep, and he went

521
00:29:10,801 --> 00:29:13,761
Speaker 3: down to nine meters and that was the first point

522
00:29:13,801 --> 00:29:17,121
Speaker 3: where he could see Ray's body. He was on camera

523
00:29:17,161 --> 00:29:19,081
Speaker 3: from above, and I think you can sort of see

524
00:29:19,081 --> 00:29:21,801
Speaker 3: the shock in him as well, because they weren't expecting

525
00:29:21,801 --> 00:29:22,481
Speaker 3: it at all.

526
00:29:22,681 --> 00:29:25,641
Speaker 4: But let's not forget all the news reports. Every single

527
00:29:25,721 --> 00:29:28,361
Speaker 4: media outlet was going, oh, they've found remains, but they

528
00:29:28,361 --> 00:29:33,361
Speaker 4: don't believe it's those of the missing people, Jenny and

529
00:29:33,441 --> 00:29:36,321
Speaker 4: Ray Keller. And this was just kept flooding through the

530
00:29:36,361 --> 00:29:38,681
Speaker 4: media and I was like, Oh my goodness, like, how

531
00:29:38,721 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 4: do they know that so quickly? And why would they

532
00:29:42,001 --> 00:29:42,601
Speaker 4: be saying that?

533
00:29:42,761 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 3: No, that was the truth. They actually didn't believe it

534
00:29:45,241 --> 00:29:48,361
Speaker 3: was Ray and Jenny because the remains were so decomposed

535
00:29:48,401 --> 00:29:53,561
Speaker 3: already because of Ray's injuries were predominantly to the upper

536
00:29:53,601 --> 00:29:56,641
Speaker 3: part of his body and that's the first part that

537
00:29:56,681 --> 00:29:59,641
Speaker 3: this guy could see and obviously took trenos and that

538
00:30:00,441 --> 00:30:02,681
Speaker 3: when it was sent back to Perth, they said it

539
00:30:02,761 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 3: must be at least months old, if not years, was

540
00:30:06,281 --> 00:30:07,361
Speaker 3: how they put it, and.

541
00:30:07,241 --> 00:30:09,801
Speaker 4: That's what they said in the media reports too. So

542
00:30:09,841 --> 00:30:12,161
Speaker 4: how long did it take for them to identify it

543
00:30:12,201 --> 00:30:12,561
Speaker 4: was Ray?

544
00:30:13,521 --> 00:30:16,321
Speaker 3: So the TIG come back up to help with the

545
00:30:16,321 --> 00:30:19,241
Speaker 3: forensics officers because they had to set up lark and

546
00:30:19,321 --> 00:30:22,321
Speaker 3: frames and all that to do the extraction. There was

547
00:30:22,361 --> 00:30:26,401
Speaker 3: the initial sighting finding on the eighth of April, which they,

548
00:30:27,001 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 3: as we said, they didn't believe it was Ray Jenny.

549
00:30:29,681 --> 00:30:32,081
Speaker 3: As soon as that forensic guy went down there, I

550
00:30:32,121 --> 00:30:34,761
Speaker 3: think the penny dropped, but they weren't going to announce

551
00:30:34,801 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 3: that officially. But it wasn't until I kind of recall

552
00:30:38,561 --> 00:30:42,161
Speaker 3: now how many weeks later that they did the DNA

553
00:30:42,801 --> 00:30:47,081
Speaker 3: results and confirmed it was Ray. They knew pretty much

554
00:30:47,561 --> 00:30:51,561
Speaker 3: on the tenth it seemed very evident that it was Ray.

555
00:30:52,321 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 4: Okay, And interestingly I read the report that it was

556
00:30:55,601 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 4: most of his upper body was damaged, like he had

557
00:30:58,081 --> 00:31:01,801
Speaker 4: damaged to his throat just near his thyroid and which

558
00:31:01,881 --> 00:31:05,681
Speaker 4: looked like a blunt trauma to that area, had breaks

559
00:31:05,681 --> 00:31:07,521
Speaker 4: to his wrists, but his legs and things were fine.

560
00:31:07,561 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 4: So I was going, Okay, Well, if you're ab sailing

561
00:31:09,801 --> 00:31:13,841
Speaker 4: down and you accidentally fall, you're going to be feet first,

562
00:31:14,041 --> 00:31:16,841
Speaker 4: so the first thing is going to be damaged.

563
00:31:17,121 --> 00:31:18,561
Speaker 1: I would have thought would have been.

564
00:31:18,481 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 4: Your legs and your feet and your ankles as you

565
00:31:21,561 --> 00:31:25,761
Speaker 4: fall on those, as opposed to your neck and the

566
00:31:25,881 --> 00:31:27,041
Speaker 4: upper Torso.

567
00:31:27,161 --> 00:31:31,921
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the coroner engaged an orthopedic professor the pathologists,

568
00:31:31,961 --> 00:31:34,801
Speaker 3: and that said that all the injuries could have been

569
00:31:35,161 --> 00:31:38,641
Speaker 3: attributed to a fall because they're broken bones. But when

570
00:31:38,681 --> 00:31:42,041
Speaker 3: you look at it holistically, all Rai's injuries were to

571
00:31:42,081 --> 00:31:45,161
Speaker 3: the left side of his face and to his back

572
00:31:45,201 --> 00:31:48,281
Speaker 3: and neck sender he said, the hi oide bone, and

573
00:31:48,321 --> 00:31:50,601
Speaker 3: the only other injury was to that part of his

574
00:31:51,241 --> 00:31:56,801
Speaker 3: right hand, his right hand. The orthopedic professor looked at it,

575
00:31:56,961 --> 00:32:00,961
Speaker 3: and as you said, the people generally land either feet

576
00:32:01,001 --> 00:32:04,161
Speaker 3: first or head first. And because of the way that

577
00:32:04,481 --> 00:32:06,441
Speaker 3: the shaft is, I mean, it's not you know, we're

578
00:32:06,481 --> 00:32:09,121
Speaker 3: not talking about just an open tunnel to the base.

579
00:32:09,201 --> 00:32:12,481
Speaker 3: There's rocks and ledges and all sorts of things. His

580
00:32:12,641 --> 00:32:17,841
Speaker 3: report suggested that whether the person is deceased or not,

581
00:32:18,401 --> 00:32:21,601
Speaker 3: they would have many more fractures, particularly to the limbs,

582
00:32:21,681 --> 00:32:25,041
Speaker 3: because you can imagine your body's flailing about as it

583
00:32:25,081 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 3: falls down. So, based on that and the training and

584
00:32:30,881 --> 00:32:34,681
Speaker 3: planning that had been into it, the coroner ultimately it

585
00:32:34,801 --> 00:32:39,361
Speaker 3: was murdered. Based on those findings, the police findings. On

586
00:32:39,401 --> 00:32:42,121
Speaker 3: the other hand, it took him a good few months

587
00:32:42,201 --> 00:32:46,041
Speaker 3: to flick the switch to homicide and talking about that

588
00:32:46,081 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 3: in particular about those injuries. And now their belief was

589
00:32:49,241 --> 00:32:51,281
Speaker 3: that because there was a mound of dirt at the

590
00:32:51,281 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 3: bottom they call it a conical mound, that their belief

591
00:32:55,321 --> 00:32:58,121
Speaker 3: was that there was an accident and rays hit that

592
00:32:58,241 --> 00:33:02,321
Speaker 3: conical mound and rolled off to the position he was founding,

593
00:33:02,361 --> 00:33:04,601
Speaker 3: which is just you know, there's another one of those

594
00:33:04,641 --> 00:33:05,761
Speaker 3: headshake in moments.

595
00:33:06,441 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry.

596
00:33:09,041 --> 00:33:11,081
Speaker 4: I know this topic that we're going to talk about

597
00:33:11,081 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 4: next is probably quite grinding for you, but let's just

598
00:33:14,001 --> 00:33:17,921
Speaker 4: refer to him as Milne. We mentioned him at the

599
00:33:17,921 --> 00:33:20,481
Speaker 4: beginning of the episode. Can you tell us a little

600
00:33:20,481 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 4: bit about who he is and in particular his reputation

601
00:33:24,401 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 4: that he's known for with women.

602
00:33:27,481 --> 00:33:31,081
Speaker 3: Where do you start? So he's from New Zealand. Initially

603
00:33:31,761 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 3: he had a very violent relationship with his first wife.

604
00:33:35,801 --> 00:33:41,361
Speaker 3: He reportedly has some dealings with potentially an underage partner.

605
00:33:41,761 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 3: Then he came to WA and since then he's been

606
00:33:44,801 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 3: with the same partner for quite a while. But what

607
00:33:47,801 --> 00:33:50,521
Speaker 3: we've heard about that story is that he did a

608
00:33:50,521 --> 00:33:53,721
Speaker 3: similar thing where he befriended the couple and then over

609
00:33:53,761 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 3: a period of months he weaseled his way in and

610
00:33:56,361 --> 00:33:57,801
Speaker 3: broke that relationship up.

611
00:33:58,241 --> 00:34:02,041
Speaker 4: He claims that he last saw them on March twenty first,

612
00:34:02,241 --> 00:34:06,081
Speaker 4: which is ten days before they were reported missing. What's

613
00:34:06,121 --> 00:34:11,641
Speaker 4: your understanding as to why Wa police let me on

614
00:34:11,881 --> 00:34:16,041
Speaker 4: stay at the camp site on day two even though

615
00:34:16,081 --> 00:34:18,841
Speaker 4: that they've closed all of the roads, no one could

616
00:34:18,841 --> 00:34:22,161
Speaker 4: get in to the region. Why do you think they

617
00:34:22,241 --> 00:34:26,041
Speaker 4: let him stay on the camp site by himself.

618
00:34:27,241 --> 00:34:32,281
Speaker 3: Jesus who knows probably his CV, he's emergency services officer,

619
00:34:32,401 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 3: he's a prospector. Clearly they didn't have any suspicion. They

620
00:34:37,481 --> 00:34:42,761
Speaker 3: had him as a trained Medican first responder. That's the

621
00:34:43,041 --> 00:34:45,121
Speaker 3: I guess if you want to give someone to get

622
00:34:45,161 --> 00:34:47,721
Speaker 3: out of jail free card for the police officers that

623
00:34:48,041 --> 00:34:52,201
Speaker 3: allowed that happened, that would be the official answer. But yeah,

624
00:34:52,401 --> 00:34:57,121
Speaker 3: very detrimental to everything since then because contaminated the scene.

625
00:34:57,481 --> 00:34:59,321
Speaker 4: Yeah, you'd think that they'd rope it all off and

626
00:34:59,361 --> 00:35:00,881
Speaker 4: no one would be allowed in there and it would

627
00:35:00,881 --> 00:35:04,321
Speaker 4: all be protected until they could get forensics in there

628
00:35:04,401 --> 00:35:08,441
Speaker 4: and you know, gather information for DNA testing. And I

629
00:35:08,481 --> 00:35:12,281
Speaker 4: find that quite troubling that that happened so quickly. And

630
00:35:12,281 --> 00:35:15,561
Speaker 4: we're only talking ten years ago, so you know, there

631
00:35:16,281 --> 00:35:19,681
Speaker 4: should have been a lot more development in the skill

632
00:35:19,721 --> 00:35:22,841
Speaker 4: set of police and managing those sorts of things when

633
00:35:22,841 --> 00:35:25,321
Speaker 4: someone goes missing. I would have thought even even in

634
00:35:25,361 --> 00:35:29,281
Speaker 4: twenty fifteen. You've mentioned a couple of times since we've

635
00:35:29,321 --> 00:35:32,641
Speaker 4: been chatting about the mud map where was that located

636
00:35:33,001 --> 00:35:33,761
Speaker 4: and by whom.

637
00:35:34,601 --> 00:35:37,481
Speaker 3: So the first search, as I said, was to around

638
00:35:37,481 --> 00:35:39,601
Speaker 3: the camp and to the south. They didn't go through

639
00:35:39,601 --> 00:35:42,721
Speaker 3: any of the belongings, and it's probably protocol, sure, they're

640
00:35:42,721 --> 00:35:46,241
Speaker 3: probably not allowed to without justifiable cause. But when that

641
00:35:46,401 --> 00:35:49,081
Speaker 3: first search was coming to an end, which was on

642
00:35:49,161 --> 00:35:52,001
Speaker 3: the fourth to the fifth of April, they packed up

643
00:35:52,041 --> 00:35:54,481
Speaker 3: all gear and in the process of that, one of

644
00:35:54,481 --> 00:35:57,761
Speaker 3: the officers he looked in Jenny's belongings in it I

645
00:35:57,761 --> 00:36:00,401
Speaker 3: think she had a backpack in the car and found

646
00:36:00,401 --> 00:36:03,401
Speaker 3: her diary. So the mud map was actually in the diary.

647
00:36:04,001 --> 00:36:08,761
Speaker 3: Then that wasaken away. It's all handwritten, it's got directions

648
00:36:08,841 --> 00:36:12,441
Speaker 3: to the area, it's got hand drawn markings where they

649
00:36:12,441 --> 00:36:15,361
Speaker 3: were to camp and the location of a first hole.

650
00:36:16,001 --> 00:36:19,241
Speaker 3: So that's what prompted them to move north because it

651
00:36:19,361 --> 00:36:23,001
Speaker 3: indicated that's the direction that they were going. Without that

652
00:36:23,081 --> 00:36:26,001
Speaker 3: mud map, they might not have kicked off the second search.

653
00:36:26,121 --> 00:36:29,121
Speaker 3: So it was very fortunate and it was found.

654
00:36:29,521 --> 00:36:32,961
Speaker 4: So let's discuss Milne's DNA and where it was located

655
00:36:33,001 --> 00:36:33,841
Speaker 4: at the camp site.

656
00:36:35,201 --> 00:36:38,641
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, they were all camps there together. So as far

657
00:36:38,721 --> 00:36:42,401
Speaker 3: as DNA goes and contamination goes, everything is a mixed

658
00:36:42,401 --> 00:36:45,401
Speaker 3: example around the camp. But the points that stand out

659
00:36:45,641 --> 00:36:48,321
Speaker 3: is when they did the extraction at the mind shaft,

660
00:36:49,121 --> 00:36:53,281
Speaker 3: the TRG officer knows three cigarette butts nearby the hole

661
00:36:53,921 --> 00:36:56,401
Speaker 3: and reported it, but they didn't do anything about it.

662
00:36:56,881 --> 00:37:01,921
Speaker 3: When Ray was exhumed, they found a pump water bottle

663
00:37:02,041 --> 00:37:05,281
Speaker 3: between his legs. So obviously the pump water bottle was

664
00:37:05,441 --> 00:37:07,481
Speaker 3: taken away straight away, but they didn't actually collect the

665
00:37:07,481 --> 00:37:10,881
Speaker 3: cigarette butts for a month later. So all this come

666
00:37:10,921 --> 00:37:13,521
Speaker 3: out in the coroner's court as well. So the pump

667
00:37:13,721 --> 00:37:18,681
Speaker 3: bottle had a mixed sample, but predominantly Milne. And again

668
00:37:18,761 --> 00:37:21,841
Speaker 3: they've just said, well, you can't prove that he was

669
00:37:21,881 --> 00:37:24,641
Speaker 3: down there because it's a mixed sample. So and he

670
00:37:24,681 --> 00:37:26,721
Speaker 3: said that they were sharing water bottles. And then when

671
00:37:26,721 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 3: they eventually tested the cigarette butts, there was three of them.

672
00:37:31,481 --> 00:37:35,441
Speaker 3: Two had Jenny's DNA and one had Milon's DNA and

673
00:37:35,481 --> 00:37:38,241
Speaker 3: they were found only very close to the opening to

674
00:37:38,321 --> 00:37:39,081
Speaker 3: the mine shaft.

675
00:37:39,721 --> 00:37:44,241
Speaker 4: So there's an interesting claim by Milne tell us about

676
00:37:44,601 --> 00:37:48,441
Speaker 4: why he claimed his cigarette but ended up in that location.

677
00:37:49,321 --> 00:37:52,601
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the mud map and the cigarette butts combined

678
00:37:53,041 --> 00:37:57,161
Speaker 3: tell them a very interesting story because he prior to

679
00:37:57,201 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 3: that finding of the cigarette butts, he denied ever going

680
00:38:00,481 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 3: to that location or in that direction, even he said

681
00:38:03,441 --> 00:38:05,761
Speaker 3: he never went north. The two combined the mud map

682
00:38:06,161 --> 00:38:09,921
Speaker 3: with his writing indicating the first hole to the north

683
00:38:10,401 --> 00:38:13,361
Speaker 3: and then the cigarette but he tied that into a

684
00:38:13,481 --> 00:38:16,441
Speaker 3: nice little bow by saying that they did plan on

685
00:38:16,561 --> 00:38:19,601
Speaker 3: going into a mine shaft, that it was a horizontal

686
00:38:19,641 --> 00:38:22,881
Speaker 3: a mine shaft further north. So he said they did

687
00:38:22,921 --> 00:38:25,761
Speaker 3: go up there. This is after denying that he went north.

688
00:38:25,801 --> 00:38:28,921
Speaker 3: But now I actually recalled, Now we did go to

689
00:38:28,961 --> 00:38:32,521
Speaker 3: this other one to the north. And while he's driving

690
00:38:32,521 --> 00:38:35,361
Speaker 3: around on his quad bike, he off has a cigarette

691
00:38:35,401 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 3: and he'll just flick it off and throw it into

692
00:38:38,001 --> 00:38:42,721
Speaker 3: the scrub, So he's covered himself for going north. But

693
00:38:42,761 --> 00:38:45,481
Speaker 3: then he said the cigarette but must have been transferred

694
00:38:45,521 --> 00:38:48,481
Speaker 3: to the location by a search cruise. So he's saying

695
00:38:49,121 --> 00:38:51,961
Speaker 3: he would have had a cigarette but further north or

696
00:38:52,001 --> 00:38:56,921
Speaker 3: off somewhere else. And then search crews have somehow got

697
00:38:57,041 --> 00:39:01,721
Speaker 3: that cigarette but lodged into the soles of their boots

698
00:39:02,201 --> 00:39:04,481
Speaker 3: and then deposited it where it was.

699
00:39:04,441 --> 00:39:08,401
Speaker 1: Found, So right next to Jenny's. Wow, So you.

700
00:39:08,441 --> 00:39:11,001
Speaker 3: Got three cigarette butts and apparently what they tell us

701
00:39:11,081 --> 00:39:14,121
Speaker 3: is that those three cigarette butts were found in a

702
00:39:14,201 --> 00:39:17,921
Speaker 3: location the size of a dinner plate altogether, So quite

703
00:39:18,001 --> 00:39:21,801
Speaker 3: statistically impossible if you ask me, But that's my opinion.

704
00:39:23,961 --> 00:39:27,681
Speaker 4: So in an interview that Milns did on Channel seven

705
00:39:27,761 --> 00:39:32,241
Speaker 4: Sunday Night program in August twenty fifteen, he claimed that

706
00:39:32,321 --> 00:39:37,281
Speaker 4: he got frustrated because Ella the dog was running off

707
00:39:37,321 --> 00:39:40,041
Speaker 4: after wild animals, and that Ray and Jenny were too

708
00:39:40,041 --> 00:39:43,681
Speaker 4: preoccupied in chasing her and finding her, and he got

709
00:39:43,721 --> 00:39:45,281
Speaker 4: the shits and he decided he was going to go

710
00:39:45,321 --> 00:39:48,681
Speaker 4: and do his own thing and went prospecting by himself.

711
00:39:49,361 --> 00:39:50,601
Speaker 1: He then comes back.

712
00:39:50,881 --> 00:39:53,121
Speaker 4: He did say he was close enough because he was

713
00:39:53,201 --> 00:39:55,161
Speaker 4: quizzed on how much water he took and how much

714
00:39:55,161 --> 00:39:57,681
Speaker 4: food he took in a couple of sandwiches and not

715
00:39:57,801 --> 00:39:58,201
Speaker 4: a lot.

716
00:39:58,081 --> 00:39:59,761
Speaker 1: Of water in that neck of the woods.

717
00:39:59,761 --> 00:40:02,641
Speaker 4: You really need to make sure that you have good

718
00:40:02,681 --> 00:40:05,481
Speaker 4: food and water as far as the survival go. So

719
00:40:05,881 --> 00:40:07,561
Speaker 4: he said he could hear the campsite and he was

720
00:40:07,601 --> 00:40:09,401
Speaker 4: close enough that he could go back and get food

721
00:40:09,441 --> 00:40:12,041
Speaker 4: and water if he needed to. But he says that

722
00:40:12,361 --> 00:40:15,481
Speaker 4: he goes back to the camp, packs up all his

723
00:40:15,561 --> 00:40:19,561
Speaker 4: belongings and strap down his quad bike He left the

724
00:40:19,601 --> 00:40:23,561
Speaker 4: camp site in the dark between three and four am

725
00:40:23,881 --> 00:40:26,841
Speaker 4: and headed home, So typically that trip takes between eight

726
00:40:26,841 --> 00:40:31,841
Speaker 4: and nine hours, but the gpspings suggest that Milne arrived

727
00:40:31,841 --> 00:40:34,961
Speaker 4: in his home at eight fifteen pm, sixteen hours later.

728
00:40:35,881 --> 00:40:38,801
Speaker 4: He mentioned when he was asked if he said goodbye

729
00:40:38,801 --> 00:40:42,041
Speaker 4: to Ray and Jenny, he said no, they were asleep

730
00:40:42,041 --> 00:40:44,001
Speaker 4: in their bed on the top of their tent and

731
00:40:44,041 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 4: he didn't want to disturb them. Now, am I right

732
00:40:47,121 --> 00:40:50,961
Speaker 4: in believing that they couldn't find raised DNA on the

733
00:40:50,961 --> 00:40:53,761
Speaker 4: bed but they could find Jenny's and mils.

734
00:40:54,401 --> 00:40:56,921
Speaker 3: Yeah, the pillowcases, the burlow cases.

735
00:40:57,001 --> 00:40:59,921
Speaker 1: Okay, that worries me a lot.

736
00:41:00,081 --> 00:41:02,921
Speaker 3: If you recall the officer that went out there with

737
00:41:03,081 --> 00:41:07,041
Speaker 3: the local from the Shire. They looked in the rooftop

738
00:41:07,121 --> 00:41:09,641
Speaker 3: tent and I don't know if the police officer reported,

739
00:41:09,721 --> 00:41:11,681
Speaker 3: but the shy guy did. He said that there wasn't

740
00:41:11,721 --> 00:41:14,561
Speaker 3: really any bedding in the tent, but there was just

741
00:41:14,561 --> 00:41:16,561
Speaker 3: a couple of pillows and that was it. So the

742
00:41:16,601 --> 00:41:19,881
Speaker 3: bedding was gone. I'm saying that not knowing if that's

743
00:41:19,881 --> 00:41:22,361
Speaker 3: true or not, but it does stand to reason because

744
00:41:22,361 --> 00:41:24,201
Speaker 3: it didn't come up in the coroner's court or with

745
00:41:24,321 --> 00:41:27,721
Speaker 3: the DNA sampling. They only talk about the pillowcases.

746
00:41:28,321 --> 00:41:30,481
Speaker 4: And this is the problem when they don't take photographs

747
00:41:30,481 --> 00:41:34,521
Speaker 4: and they pack everything up really quickly, because if they

748
00:41:34,561 --> 00:41:38,361
Speaker 4: were sleeping there, their sheets and towels and pillows and

749
00:41:38,401 --> 00:41:41,201
Speaker 4: everything would have been as they would normally.

750
00:41:41,601 --> 00:41:42,401
Speaker 1: But if they're not.

751
00:41:42,441 --> 00:41:45,281
Speaker 3: There, Yeah, and if they were there, they would have

752
00:41:45,361 --> 00:41:47,001
Speaker 3: been tested and it would have come up at the

753
00:41:47,041 --> 00:41:49,561
Speaker 3: coroner's court, and it didn't, so we can safely assume

754
00:41:49,601 --> 00:41:51,801
Speaker 3: that there wasn't There was only pillows in.

755
00:41:51,721 --> 00:41:54,201
Speaker 4: There, and that could be for multiple things. Dave like

756
00:41:54,241 --> 00:41:55,881
Speaker 4: they might not have even had a chance to make

757
00:41:55,921 --> 00:41:56,241
Speaker 4: the bed.

758
00:41:56,761 --> 00:41:58,641
Speaker 3: Well, that's very very true.

759
00:41:58,761 --> 00:41:59,641
Speaker 1: Something's happened.

760
00:41:59,841 --> 00:42:04,761
Speaker 3: The pillowcases were tested, one had predominantly Jenny's DNA. The

761
00:42:04,801 --> 00:42:07,441
Speaker 3: other I had, again a mixed sample, but it was

762
00:42:07,881 --> 00:42:12,201
Speaker 3: Jenny's and Mills on it, and Ray's didn't really factor.

763
00:42:12,521 --> 00:42:15,841
Speaker 4: So in twenty twenty an inquest was held to five

764
00:42:15,921 --> 00:42:19,641
Speaker 4: years after Ray has obviously been found and Jenny is

765
00:42:19,681 --> 00:42:23,121
Speaker 4: still missing. How did you find the coronial process?

766
00:42:23,521 --> 00:42:25,361
Speaker 3: I have to say, from our point of view, it

767
00:42:25,401 --> 00:42:28,161
Speaker 3: was very positive. I've heard many people talk about their

768
00:42:28,241 --> 00:42:31,401
Speaker 3: experience in the coroner's court as being very negative. We

769
00:42:31,441 --> 00:42:34,401
Speaker 3: didn't really have any information at all up until the

770
00:42:34,441 --> 00:42:39,281
Speaker 3: coroner's court, and we were treated very well. The brief

771
00:42:39,321 --> 00:42:41,921
Speaker 3: to the coroner was put together with I call him

772
00:42:42,001 --> 00:42:45,281
Speaker 3: the only coppyright trust, Steve Kleil, so it was very

773
00:42:45,321 --> 00:42:51,041
Speaker 3: detailed and assisted greatly with the outcome the process. It

774
00:42:51,121 --> 00:42:53,161
Speaker 3: went for over two weeks and then they had to

775
00:42:53,161 --> 00:42:55,681
Speaker 3: get a couple more people back, so it was pretty

776
00:42:55,681 --> 00:42:58,121
Speaker 3: harrowing and honestly, you sit there and you hear all

777
00:42:58,121 --> 00:43:01,161
Speaker 3: this information that you haven't heard before, and some of

778
00:43:01,201 --> 00:43:02,561
Speaker 3: it is just crazy.

779
00:43:02,641 --> 00:43:07,321
Speaker 4: So Steve Kleil actually wanted to push it to the

780
00:43:07,441 --> 00:43:10,521
Speaker 4: DPP right but he got rejected on what grounds did

781
00:43:10,561 --> 00:43:11,801
Speaker 4: they reject him?

782
00:43:12,281 --> 00:43:15,281
Speaker 3: The way they put it in legal terms is insufficient

783
00:43:15,361 --> 00:43:19,041
Speaker 3: burden of proof. A lot of it is circumstantial, but

784
00:43:19,081 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 3: there's a strong argument to make that. There's been plenty

785
00:43:21,561 --> 00:43:25,761
Speaker 3: of cases that have been solved based on strong circumstantial evidence,

786
00:43:25,841 --> 00:43:28,881
Speaker 3: and we do have hard evidence as well. But the

787
00:43:29,001 --> 00:43:32,121
Speaker 3: DPP they buttered heads about it. They believed they had

788
00:43:32,441 --> 00:43:35,761
Speaker 3: a strong enough case, but the DPP didn't. The DPP

789
00:43:35,841 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 3: in wa had a period of time where they got

790
00:43:38,561 --> 00:43:42,401
Speaker 3: hammered in the courts. They've become pretty gun shy I

791
00:43:42,481 --> 00:43:45,401
Speaker 3: put it. You know, they pretty much wanted everything on

792
00:43:45,481 --> 00:43:48,841
Speaker 3: a silver platter and one hundred percent proof before they

793
00:43:48,841 --> 00:43:49,601
Speaker 3: will go ahead.

794
00:43:50,921 --> 00:43:54,161
Speaker 4: So Dave the Curenter did rule that Ray's death was

795
00:43:54,201 --> 00:43:57,841
Speaker 4: a homicide. What was her actual findings? Do you remember

796
00:43:57,881 --> 00:43:58,801
Speaker 4: the words?

797
00:43:59,201 --> 00:44:01,481
Speaker 3: I don't know if that don't quote me on this,

798
00:44:01,561 --> 00:44:06,161
Speaker 3: but blunt force trauma or something, but few words were

799
00:44:06,241 --> 00:44:09,521
Speaker 3: by the actions of a personal person's unknown at the

800
00:44:09,561 --> 00:44:12,561
Speaker 3: base of the mind shaft. That was her finding for Ray.

801
00:44:12,881 --> 00:44:14,001
Speaker 1: And what about for Jenny.

802
00:44:14,641 --> 00:44:18,681
Speaker 3: Jenny's is unfortunately still an open finding because we haven't

803
00:44:18,721 --> 00:44:23,241
Speaker 3: found her, so being deceased beyond reasonable doubt because you know,

804
00:44:23,281 --> 00:44:25,041
Speaker 3: there's been no contact.

805
00:44:25,761 --> 00:44:28,921
Speaker 4: It's now been ten years, and there is a two

806
00:44:29,081 --> 00:44:31,721
Speaker 4: million dollar reward on offer for information that will help

807
00:44:31,801 --> 00:44:34,361
Speaker 4: solve the death of your brother Ray and find your

808
00:44:34,361 --> 00:44:38,121
Speaker 4: sister in law Jenny, who is still missing today. What

809
00:44:38,161 --> 00:44:41,561
Speaker 4: are your thoughts on the evidence and how the investigation

810
00:44:41,681 --> 00:44:43,161
Speaker 4: has been conducted over the years.

811
00:44:43,921 --> 00:44:46,441
Speaker 3: Well, I'm still the very firm belief that they have

812
00:44:46,561 --> 00:44:49,881
Speaker 3: enough already. I don't understand why they need more. We've

813
00:44:50,121 --> 00:44:53,481
Speaker 3: prior to the in quest, they already believed that they

814
00:44:53,481 --> 00:44:56,201
Speaker 3: had enough but you know, the DPP didn't, and since

815
00:44:56,281 --> 00:44:59,961
Speaker 3: the inquest there's been plenty of things unearthed and uncovered,

816
00:45:00,001 --> 00:45:03,401
Speaker 3: and so they must have more. It just needs someone

817
00:45:03,481 --> 00:45:08,121
Speaker 3: to put together a substantial brief. So after the coroner's

818
00:45:08,161 --> 00:45:11,721
Speaker 3: findings come out, it went back to the DPP. So

819
00:45:11,761 --> 00:45:15,041
Speaker 3: we just assumed that that would be here. So we waited.

820
00:45:15,561 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 3: I think it was around October November of that year,

821
00:45:18,361 --> 00:45:21,401
Speaker 3: having not heard anything, so I called the DPP and

822
00:45:21,401 --> 00:45:24,281
Speaker 3: I've got the reception and they said, oh, what case

823
00:45:24,361 --> 00:45:26,601
Speaker 3: is it? And they didn't even have a record of it.

824
00:45:26,801 --> 00:45:29,681
Speaker 3: The DPP had no record of the case at that time.

825
00:45:29,801 --> 00:45:32,561
Speaker 3: This is at the end of twenty twenty one. So

826
00:45:33,321 --> 00:45:35,601
Speaker 3: the family got together and wrote a letter to the

827
00:45:35,681 --> 00:45:37,841
Speaker 3: DPP to find out what the hell was going on,

828
00:45:38,001 --> 00:45:40,841
Speaker 3: where everyone signed it, and apparently that spurred a bit

829
00:45:40,881 --> 00:45:43,761
Speaker 3: of action in the background. So the DPP did a

830
00:45:43,801 --> 00:45:46,641
Speaker 3: quick review, sent it back to and sentence the cold case.

831
00:45:46,921 --> 00:45:50,041
Speaker 3: So then it goes to cold case. And as you

832
00:45:50,121 --> 00:45:52,881
Speaker 3: know very well, that doesn't mean anything because it will

833
00:45:52,921 --> 00:45:55,561
Speaker 3: go to cold case and it'll sit in a big

834
00:45:55,601 --> 00:45:59,321
Speaker 3: box full of lots of cold cases. And I guess

835
00:45:59,401 --> 00:46:03,921
Speaker 3: from that point that's when we sort of started getting

836
00:46:03,961 --> 00:46:06,961
Speaker 3: more heavily involved with media because it was very evident

837
00:46:07,041 --> 00:46:09,641
Speaker 3: that if we didn't have a public spotlight on what

838
00:46:09,801 --> 00:46:13,721
Speaker 3: was going on, that wouldn't go anywhere. You really have

839
00:46:13,841 --> 00:46:17,241
Speaker 3: to get it out there so that there's spurred into action.

840
00:46:17,561 --> 00:46:19,761
Speaker 3: I would have started doing it from the start if

841
00:46:19,801 --> 00:46:22,521
Speaker 3: I knew what I know now, because it was only

842
00:46:22,561 --> 00:46:25,121
Speaker 3: by doing the media stuff that it's come to the surface.

843
00:46:25,161 --> 00:46:28,961
Speaker 3: I mean, we talked before about range Jenny having a

844
00:46:29,081 --> 00:46:32,401
Speaker 3: two million dollar reward to a million dollars each. So

845
00:46:32,441 --> 00:46:37,721
Speaker 3: the WA government announced that for sixty four cold case reports,

846
00:46:37,921 --> 00:46:41,361
Speaker 3: so the sixty four in total in the cold case group.

847
00:46:42,081 --> 00:46:45,401
Speaker 3: And I'm very sorry to the other families, but you know,

848
00:46:45,641 --> 00:46:48,321
Speaker 3: like as I'm sure everyone would think, you know, you

849
00:46:48,361 --> 00:46:50,641
Speaker 3: want yours at the forefront, and the only way to

850
00:46:50,641 --> 00:46:53,601
Speaker 3: get to the forefront is to get the word out there.

851
00:46:54,321 --> 00:46:56,641
Speaker 4: It's just a very hard position to be in and

852
00:46:56,681 --> 00:46:59,721
Speaker 4: I really feel for everybody in this space, and that's

853
00:46:59,761 --> 00:47:01,921
Speaker 4: why it sort of drove the idea of doing this

854
00:47:02,041 --> 00:47:04,521
Speaker 4: podcast was we can sit, we can have a chat

855
00:47:04,561 --> 00:47:07,201
Speaker 4: with the full understanding of each other of what we've

856
00:47:07,241 --> 00:47:09,561
Speaker 4: gone through. Everyone's story is different, right, but we all

857
00:47:09,761 --> 00:47:12,121
Speaker 4: have had dealings with police. We've all had dealings with

858
00:47:12,441 --> 00:47:15,841
Speaker 4: things like the DPP trying to get information, and we

859
00:47:15,921 --> 00:47:19,121
Speaker 4: all have that sense of urgency in ourselves to you know,

860
00:47:19,361 --> 00:47:21,801
Speaker 4: I can't someone please just help Why can't you just

861
00:47:21,921 --> 00:47:23,881
Speaker 4: do it now? Like why do I have to wait

862
00:47:24,601 --> 00:47:27,321
Speaker 4: another ten years for you to do something like please

863
00:47:27,361 --> 00:47:31,081
Speaker 4: help me? You become desperate. You do have a good

864
00:47:31,081 --> 00:47:33,121
Speaker 4: person in your camp though. His name is Rick.

865
00:47:33,521 --> 00:47:35,241
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about him.

866
00:47:36,081 --> 00:47:41,481
Speaker 3: Yeah, so Rick, he approached this after the Under Investigation episode,

867
00:47:41,521 --> 00:47:45,281
Speaker 3: so he's an army vet. He did some messius work afterwards,

868
00:47:45,361 --> 00:47:48,161
Speaker 3: and he's a great character. I love Rick. He's one

869
00:47:48,201 --> 00:47:51,041
Speaker 3: of those guys that just he lives off grid, so

870
00:47:51,081 --> 00:47:53,801
Speaker 3: he's got his full drive truck set up. So he

871
00:47:53,881 --> 00:47:57,161
Speaker 3: thought he could assist in doing some searches until he

872
00:47:57,201 --> 00:48:00,761
Speaker 3: approached us and pretty much went up to the Sandstone

873
00:48:00,761 --> 00:48:03,361
Speaker 3: region and started doing his own searches. He was up

874
00:48:03,401 --> 00:48:05,761
Speaker 3: there for a good month for the first time, and

875
00:48:05,801 --> 00:48:09,241
Speaker 3: then he wanted to go down raise hole and have

876
00:48:09,321 --> 00:48:12,961
Speaker 3: another look. So MAO, my other brother and I went up.

877
00:48:13,121 --> 00:48:18,161
Speaker 3: He roped down the hole and dug into that infamous

878
00:48:18,361 --> 00:48:22,321
Speaker 3: chronical mound and come across a few items including a

879
00:48:22,361 --> 00:48:26,241
Speaker 3: shirt which had been completely missed before, and handed that

880
00:48:26,321 --> 00:48:31,481
Speaker 3: into police. They did forensic testing on it. They've said

881
00:48:31,641 --> 00:48:34,281
Speaker 3: that they believe it was raised shirt. I think it was.

882
00:48:35,121 --> 00:48:39,161
Speaker 3: The DNA testing was not conclusive, which could mean that

883
00:48:39,241 --> 00:48:41,881
Speaker 3: it was a mixed sample, but they've publicly announced that

884
00:48:41,881 --> 00:48:45,481
Speaker 3: they're dealing it with it as Rai's shirt. Yeah. Rick

885
00:48:45,761 --> 00:48:49,081
Speaker 3: finding that sort of really spurred things on. If he

886
00:48:49,121 --> 00:48:51,561
Speaker 3: hadn't done that, I don't think they would have gone

887
00:48:51,601 --> 00:48:54,321
Speaker 3: back up there to search again, as in the police.

888
00:48:54,761 --> 00:48:57,521
Speaker 4: And I think too, I've seen footage of you, I

889
00:48:57,561 --> 00:49:01,241
Speaker 4: think with Liam Bartlett, and I saw you explaining to him.

890
00:49:01,361 --> 00:49:05,281
Speaker 4: There's actually a mound that's outside the shaft, which I

891
00:49:05,281 --> 00:49:07,081
Speaker 4: would assume is some of the dirt from when they've

892
00:49:07,121 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 4: dug the shaft initially. But you can see it does

893
00:49:09,561 --> 00:49:12,121
Speaker 4: kind of look like someone's got a spade or something

894
00:49:12,161 --> 00:49:14,161
Speaker 4: and they've sort of chipped into the side of it

895
00:49:14,681 --> 00:49:17,281
Speaker 4: and that dirt has fallen back into the shaft.

896
00:49:17,281 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 1: Am I reading that right?

897
00:49:18,921 --> 00:49:22,641
Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely? Yeah. So when they back in the last century,

898
00:49:22,641 --> 00:49:24,881
Speaker 3: when they were digging all those mine shafts, they did

899
00:49:24,921 --> 00:49:26,881
Speaker 3: it by rope and bucket and that, so they would

900
00:49:27,161 --> 00:49:29,681
Speaker 3: get the material from the bottom of the shaft, rope

901
00:49:29,721 --> 00:49:31,761
Speaker 3: it up to the top and tip it out. So

902
00:49:32,081 --> 00:49:34,881
Speaker 3: most of the mine shafts are surrounded by these it's

903
00:49:34,921 --> 00:49:39,241
Speaker 3: called tailings. So where Rays was, which until Rick pointed out,

904
00:49:39,281 --> 00:49:41,761
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have even noticed, but he's dead right. You

905
00:49:41,801 --> 00:49:45,081
Speaker 3: can see the change in the contour of that amount

906
00:49:45,161 --> 00:49:47,841
Speaker 3: of tailings, and it's very evident that one section has

907
00:49:47,881 --> 00:49:50,561
Speaker 3: been cut out or dug out.

908
00:49:51,041 --> 00:49:53,801
Speaker 4: Ray and Jenny's quad bike was found a little bit

909
00:49:53,841 --> 00:49:57,521
Speaker 4: further up from where the campsite was, and I believe

910
00:49:57,641 --> 00:50:02,121
Speaker 4: Rick using his metal detector he found a bullet Yeah,

911
00:50:02,281 --> 00:50:03,481
Speaker 4: that the police didn't find.

912
00:50:05,081 --> 00:50:05,881
Speaker 3: Amazing, isn't it?

913
00:50:05,881 --> 00:50:08,321
Speaker 4: And has that been tested that against any guns or

914
00:50:08,321 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 4: anything like that that we can we.

915
00:50:09,921 --> 00:50:11,841
Speaker 1: Know of or we don't know this We would not know.

916
00:50:12,001 --> 00:50:14,641
Speaker 3: We've asked, but we don't know. Again, they're not going

917
00:50:14,681 --> 00:50:17,801
Speaker 3: to disclose anything, you would hope, so you know, because

918
00:50:18,041 --> 00:50:20,281
Speaker 3: it does sort of tie in with a few things.

919
00:50:20,641 --> 00:50:23,841
Speaker 3: So they'm not finding that bullet casing comes back to

920
00:50:23,921 --> 00:50:26,601
Speaker 3: that they weren't looking at it with any suspicion. They

921
00:50:26,641 --> 00:50:28,281
Speaker 3: were just looking at it like an accident.

922
00:50:28,841 --> 00:50:33,121
Speaker 4: And that brings me to as early as April twenty seventh,

923
00:50:33,561 --> 00:50:36,521
Speaker 4: we had a detective superintendent and he had said that

924
00:50:36,521 --> 00:50:40,121
Speaker 4: they'd drawn a conclusion on what may have happened to Ray,

925
00:50:40,201 --> 00:50:43,281
Speaker 4: and Jenny saying something along lines of I'm saying to you,

926
00:50:43,321 --> 00:50:46,361
Speaker 4: there is no evidence of any criminality. Like what is

927
00:50:46,841 --> 00:50:50,321
Speaker 4: That's not even a month and they're already determining there's

928
00:50:50,361 --> 00:50:51,041
Speaker 4: no criminal I.

929
00:50:51,041 --> 00:50:53,041
Speaker 1: Mean, like, you start it suspicious.

930
00:50:53,521 --> 00:50:55,841
Speaker 4: There are two missing humans, and at this point you

931
00:50:55,881 --> 00:50:59,201
Speaker 4: started suspicious, and you work backwards. You don't let the

932
00:50:59,241 --> 00:51:02,761
Speaker 4: only other person who knew them stay on the campsite overnight.

933
00:51:03,241 --> 00:51:05,561
Speaker 4: You don't pack up all their belongings and ship them

934
00:51:05,561 --> 00:51:08,761
Speaker 4: home with the family without taking DNA and photographs and

935
00:51:09,281 --> 00:51:13,041
Speaker 4: evidence of what may have happened. The ambiguity of not

936
00:51:13,201 --> 00:51:18,321
Speaker 4: knowing what's happened to our missing loved ones, or even

937
00:51:18,441 --> 00:51:22,881
Speaker 4: in your personal case with Ray, he is deceased, but

938
00:51:23,121 --> 00:51:26,561
Speaker 4: there's that ambiguity of not knowing what's happened to him.

939
00:51:27,081 --> 00:51:30,601
Speaker 4: How does that tragedy affect your family's daily life and

940
00:51:30,641 --> 00:51:31,881
Speaker 4: your emotional well being.

941
00:51:33,241 --> 00:51:34,921
Speaker 3: I don't think there would be a day that's gone

942
00:51:34,961 --> 00:51:37,961
Speaker 3: by that we haven't thought about whatever we can do,

943
00:51:38,161 --> 00:51:42,001
Speaker 3: or sometimes your memories of the actual people that you

944
00:51:42,281 --> 00:51:45,361
Speaker 3: once loved get clouded by the rest of this crap,

945
00:51:45,601 --> 00:51:48,641
Speaker 3: you know, like it's just and especially for their kids,

946
00:51:48,961 --> 00:51:51,521
Speaker 3: adult children, or should say, they've got their whole lives

947
00:51:51,521 --> 00:51:53,881
Speaker 3: ahead of them, and they haven't got their mum and

948
00:51:53,921 --> 00:51:55,561
Speaker 3: dad respectively. There.

949
00:51:55,881 --> 00:51:59,001
Speaker 4: I mean, when you had Ray's funeral, that would have

950
00:51:59,001 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 4: been a really difficult day for you guys, especially knowing

951
00:52:01,521 --> 00:52:03,081
Speaker 4: that Jenny was still missing.

952
00:52:03,641 --> 00:52:04,801
Speaker 1: How did you guys cope? Then?

953
00:52:05,881 --> 00:52:09,841
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I was working overseas at the time, so

954
00:52:10,281 --> 00:52:14,401
Speaker 3: I came back for that initial search and then realized

955
00:52:14,441 --> 00:52:18,361
Speaker 3: it was Ray. We didn't know how long the autopsy

956
00:52:18,481 --> 00:52:21,921
Speaker 3: or anything would take, and therefore, you know, funeral procession afterwards.

957
00:52:21,921 --> 00:52:24,561
Speaker 3: It could have been weeks, could have been months. You know.

958
00:52:24,681 --> 00:52:27,401
Speaker 3: I had to make a decision to either go back

959
00:52:27,441 --> 00:52:31,201
Speaker 3: to work or sit around and wait, And unfortunately I

960
00:52:31,241 --> 00:52:33,481
Speaker 3: had to head back to work, so sort of like

961
00:52:33,121 --> 00:52:36,401
Speaker 3: a like a cat hit by a truck and hiding

962
00:52:36,961 --> 00:52:39,841
Speaker 3: while they licked their wounds. So I wasn't there for

963
00:52:39,881 --> 00:52:45,001
Speaker 3: the funeral, but the Charmaine organized it all and they

964
00:52:45,041 --> 00:52:49,361
Speaker 3: got video and slide shows and all that for us afterwards.

965
00:52:49,801 --> 00:52:52,121
Speaker 3: Here's a detrimental part of the media, you know, they

966
00:52:52,161 --> 00:52:56,121
Speaker 3: approached Charmaine about attending the funeral, and of course no

967
00:52:56,161 --> 00:52:59,761
Speaker 3: one wanted that, so they went up and set up

968
00:52:59,801 --> 00:53:02,801
Speaker 3: their cameras and in the park across the street and

969
00:53:02,841 --> 00:53:05,961
Speaker 3: filmed it anyway and put it on the news. I

970
00:53:06,001 --> 00:53:09,761
Speaker 3: was working in South Korea sitting there and watching my

971
00:53:10,081 --> 00:53:14,721
Speaker 3: brother and father and family members all carrying Ray out

972
00:53:14,881 --> 00:53:18,281
Speaker 3: on the national news, which is just, you know, some

973
00:53:18,401 --> 00:53:22,761
Speaker 3: things they don't need to put out there for public consumption,

974
00:53:22,881 --> 00:53:24,521
Speaker 3: and that was a big one.

975
00:53:25,321 --> 00:53:29,841
Speaker 4: So sadly Ray is deceased and Jenny has now been

976
00:53:29,881 --> 00:53:34,281
Speaker 4: missing for three and twenty two days. I know how

977
00:53:34,321 --> 00:53:38,161
Speaker 4: hard this journey is, the closed doors, finding evidence that

978
00:53:38,281 --> 00:53:41,761
Speaker 4: you feel is vital yet deemed not important by the

979
00:53:41,801 --> 00:53:45,201
Speaker 4: powers it be, and the not knowing. So despite the

980
00:53:45,241 --> 00:53:49,201
Speaker 4: ongoing uncertainty, what keeps you hoping for justice and resolution?

981
00:53:50,401 --> 00:53:53,721
Speaker 3: Well, I strongly believe that it will happen because from

982
00:53:53,761 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 3: what I know and have talked to people about, there

983
00:53:58,001 --> 00:54:00,481
Speaker 3: is enough there. It's just getting them to switch. So

984
00:54:01,321 --> 00:54:03,801
Speaker 3: there's two parts of not giving up. One is that

985
00:54:04,121 --> 00:54:07,721
Speaker 3: I strongly believe something will eventually happen. But the second

986
00:54:07,801 --> 00:54:10,401
Speaker 3: part of that is there's no point in giving up

987
00:54:10,681 --> 00:54:13,801
Speaker 3: if you have a defeat of statitude that'll consume you

988
00:54:13,881 --> 00:54:17,161
Speaker 3: might as well have a proactive attitude and just keep

989
00:54:17,281 --> 00:54:20,561
Speaker 3: pushing regardless if you just thought it was too hard

990
00:54:21,161 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 3: and gave up, I think they would have a more

991
00:54:23,561 --> 00:54:27,921
Speaker 3: detrimental effect on health and psychology than the opposite.

992
00:54:28,481 --> 00:54:32,481
Speaker 4: I started this podcast series to help families with missing

993
00:54:32,481 --> 00:54:35,121
Speaker 4: loved ones, to give them a voice to spread the word.

994
00:54:35,641 --> 00:54:39,721
Speaker 4: I always say someone somewhere know something. I feel fortunate.

995
00:54:39,761 --> 00:54:44,361
Speaker 4: I guess that over my journey built this amazing community

996
00:54:45,241 --> 00:54:48,321
Speaker 4: of awesome humans who stand with me in this space.

997
00:54:48,401 --> 00:54:52,841
Speaker 4: Now you mentioned before that there's a petition happening. How

998
00:54:52,961 --> 00:54:56,641
Speaker 4: can our community and our listeners support families like yours?

999
00:54:58,001 --> 00:55:01,281
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we're trying to make some changes in the

1000
00:55:01,321 --> 00:55:05,201
Speaker 3: processes of missing people in WA, in particular hoping to

1001
00:55:05,241 --> 00:55:09,121
Speaker 3: get independent people to be able to access information and

1002
00:55:09,121 --> 00:55:12,921
Speaker 3: that so they can do their own investigations or searches.

1003
00:55:13,201 --> 00:55:15,761
Speaker 3: So that's a way that people can help by backing

1004
00:55:15,801 --> 00:55:17,761
Speaker 3: that petition, can sign it online.

1005
00:55:18,001 --> 00:55:19,641
Speaker 1: Where could they find you online?

1006
00:55:19,921 --> 00:55:22,441
Speaker 3: There's a Facebook group called the Man in the Hole.

1007
00:55:23,001 --> 00:55:25,761
Speaker 3: If you search our surname, everything will pop up because

1008
00:55:25,761 --> 00:55:29,081
Speaker 3: it's unique in Wa. We also have a podcast series,

1009
00:55:29,121 --> 00:55:32,321
Speaker 3: but also a lot of extras if you search some

1010
00:55:32,441 --> 00:55:34,001
Speaker 3: kind of closure as well.

1011
00:55:34,681 --> 00:55:36,841
Speaker 1: And he had a missing person himself, didn't he.

1012
00:55:37,281 --> 00:55:39,721
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, when he approached me, he had a very

1013
00:55:39,761 --> 00:55:43,041
Speaker 3: close family member that went missing for seven years, so

1014
00:55:43,081 --> 00:55:47,921
Speaker 3: he understands the ambiguous loss and what that effect has

1015
00:55:47,961 --> 00:55:52,321
Speaker 3: on families. It also gets people talking and there is

1016
00:55:52,601 --> 00:55:56,121
Speaker 3: potential that people might still know stuff let us know

1017
00:55:56,281 --> 00:55:59,161
Speaker 3: or let police know, So getting that out there is

1018
00:55:59,321 --> 00:56:00,001
Speaker 3: very important.

1019
00:56:00,281 --> 00:56:01,721
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree.

1020
00:56:02,121 --> 00:56:05,001
Speaker 4: Chrime Stoppers is one eight hundred triples three triples there,

1021
00:56:05,561 --> 00:56:07,961
Speaker 4: or you can send something to me as well. So

1022
00:56:08,041 --> 00:56:11,121
Speaker 4: we have an email which is info at the Missingmatter

1023
00:56:11,161 --> 00:56:13,361
Speaker 4: dot com and people can send that to us. We

1024
00:56:13,441 --> 00:56:15,681
Speaker 4: can forward it to you guys, if that's the easiest

1025
00:56:15,681 --> 00:56:19,481
Speaker 4: way of communicating. Dave, thank you so much for coming

1026
00:56:19,521 --> 00:56:22,721
Speaker 4: on and doing everything that you are doing to help

1027
00:56:22,761 --> 00:56:25,561
Speaker 4: find the truth as to what's happened to Ray and Jenny.

1028
00:56:25,681 --> 00:56:29,881
Speaker 4: So I always end these podcast episodes asking my guests

1029
00:56:29,961 --> 00:56:34,481
Speaker 4: to tell us why their person matters. So can you

1030
00:56:34,561 --> 00:56:38,241
Speaker 4: tell us in your own words why Ray and Jenny matter?

1031
00:56:39,321 --> 00:56:43,921
Speaker 3: They were very much loved, They had fantastic families between them,

1032
00:56:43,961 --> 00:56:48,321
Speaker 3: they had fantastic friends. They matter immensely. And for them personally,

1033
00:56:49,201 --> 00:56:53,121
Speaker 3: I only recently thought about this actually, from our first conversation.

1034
00:56:53,561 --> 00:56:56,201
Speaker 3: I was the youngest, but now I'm older than Ray

1035
00:56:56,481 --> 00:56:58,841
Speaker 3: was when he passed away. And you sort of you

1036
00:56:58,921 --> 00:57:01,801
Speaker 3: grow up sort of looking up to that person and

1037
00:57:01,881 --> 00:57:04,881
Speaker 3: thinking they're an old bastard or whatever. You know, then

1038
00:57:05,201 --> 00:57:08,041
Speaker 3: now you realize just how much they've missed out on,

1039
00:57:08,201 --> 00:57:12,201
Speaker 3: because you know, it's just sort of entering that golden

1040
00:57:12,481 --> 00:57:15,721
Speaker 3: era of life, you know, the second part of your life.

1041
00:57:15,761 --> 00:57:21,241
Speaker 3: And yeah, for them personally, that's what matters, is that

1042
00:57:21,561 --> 00:57:25,121
Speaker 3: they're they're missing out on a life that they deserve

1043
00:57:25,201 --> 00:57:28,921
Speaker 3: to live. Yeah, and they matter to their to their

1044
00:57:28,921 --> 00:57:29,521
Speaker 3: loved ones.