1 00:00:03,990 --> 00:00:06,780 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:07,110 --> 00:00:09,839 Sean Aylmer: This month saw a major milestone for Buy Now Pay 3 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,539 Sean Aylmer: Later provider Zip Co. The company, one of the pioneers 4 00:00:12,539 --> 00:00:15,119 Sean Aylmer: in the sector, turned 10 at a time when the 5 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,750 Sean Aylmer: industry is undergoing significant change. Here in Australia, the sector 6 00:00:18,810 --> 00:00:20,939 Sean Aylmer: is set to be regulated with Buy Now Pay Later 7 00:00:20,940 --> 00:00:23,970 Sean Aylmer: to be treated as credit products. More broadly, the industry 8 00:00:23,970 --> 00:00:26,790 Sean Aylmer: has had a pretty tumultuous few years, from the highs 9 00:00:26,790 --> 00:00:30,420 Sean Aylmer: that saw Afterpay acquired by Block for $39 billion, to 10 00:00:30,420 --> 00:00:33,900 Sean Aylmer: lows that saw some smaller providers shut down. But now 11 00:00:33,900 --> 00:00:37,769 Sean Aylmer: the industry hopefully is on the path to profitability and sustainability. 12 00:00:38,010 --> 00:00:41,100 Sean Aylmer: To mark 10 years since Zip Co started operating, I'm 13 00:00:41,100 --> 00:00:44,610 Sean Aylmer: joined today by co- founders Larry Diamond and Peter Gray. Larry, Peter, 14 00:00:44,610 --> 00:00:45,600 Sean Aylmer: welcome to Fear and Greed. 15 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:46,589 Larry Diamond: Thank you. 16 00:00:47,010 --> 00:00:47,459 Peter Gray: Thanks, Sean. 17 00:00:48,030 --> 00:00:51,420 Sean Aylmer: Congratulations on 10 years. How did you do it, in 18 00:00:51,420 --> 00:00:55,290 Sean Aylmer: short? Because you are in a very competitive industry. You're 19 00:00:55,290 --> 00:00:58,830 Sean Aylmer: taking on giants like banks and things like that. How 20 00:00:58,830 --> 00:01:01,320 Sean Aylmer: do you... The elevator pitch for the last 10 years 21 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:01,740 Sean Aylmer: or so? 22 00:01:02,460 --> 00:01:05,130 Larry Diamond: Yeah, I'd love to say it was an overnight success, 23 00:01:05,130 --> 00:01:08,309 Larry Diamond: but it's, as you said, 10 years on the 24th 24 00:01:08,309 --> 00:01:12,029 Larry Diamond: of June and we're super proud of the last 10 25 00:01:12,029 --> 00:01:14,580 Larry Diamond: years and it's been quite the journey. I have to 26 00:01:14,580 --> 00:01:18,390 Larry Diamond: say, when we reflect on the humble beginnings in Bondi 27 00:01:18,390 --> 00:01:21,509 Larry Diamond: Junction, five of us in my brother's office with the 28 00:01:21,870 --> 00:01:24,419 Larry Diamond: Groupon boxes all around us, to where we're today with 29 00:01:24,690 --> 00:01:27,780 Larry Diamond: close to a thousand staff, global, and millions of customers, 30 00:01:27,780 --> 00:01:30,300 Larry Diamond: it's been quite the journey. But I think if I 31 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,179 Larry Diamond: point to what got us here, it's a combination of 32 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,990 Larry Diamond: hard work, probably Pete and I keeping ourselves honest every 33 00:01:36,990 --> 00:01:40,409 Larry Diamond: single day, and being fearless with really a joint passion 34 00:01:40,410 --> 00:01:43,590 Larry Diamond: for trying to do things better for financial services, for 35 00:01:43,590 --> 00:01:48,300 Larry Diamond: everyday consumers, leveraging tech, and just constantly iterating and finding 36 00:01:48,570 --> 00:01:51,330 Larry Diamond: the answers. We never had all the answers in the 37 00:01:51,330 --> 00:01:53,070 Larry Diamond: beginning. I don't think we've got all of them now, 38 00:01:53,430 --> 00:01:55,770 Larry Diamond: but we keep pushing and we keep improving. 39 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,240 Sean Aylmer: What's been the hardest part? Has it been educating consumers? 40 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,840 Sean Aylmer: Has it been educating merchants? Has it been dealing with 41 00:02:04,379 --> 00:02:08,790 Sean Aylmer: competitors? With regulators? What have been the toughest challenges? 42 00:02:09,750 --> 00:02:14,250 Larry Diamond: I think we'll probably answer the question slightly differently. Ultimately, 43 00:02:14,250 --> 00:02:18,839 Larry Diamond: I think it's come down to people and execution. Every 44 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,379 Larry Diamond: step of the journey requires a totally different set of skills, 45 00:02:22,379 --> 00:02:25,230 Larry Diamond: a different set of problems to solve and you have 46 00:02:25,230 --> 00:02:27,990 Larry Diamond: to know when to move to the next phase. When 47 00:02:27,990 --> 00:02:29,820 Larry Diamond: it's five of you round the table trying to develop 48 00:02:29,820 --> 00:02:34,019 Larry Diamond: the MVP (Minimum Viable Product), to get that right product, that first customer 49 00:02:34,020 --> 00:02:37,288 Larry Diamond: and make sure that we satisfy all of those stakeholders, 50 00:02:37,290 --> 00:02:40,199 Larry Diamond: it's all about product experience. And then you move to 51 00:02:40,199 --> 00:02:43,500 Larry Diamond: 30 people, now you've got to start thinking about functions, divisions, 52 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,260 Larry Diamond: obviously licensing. And so every phase of the journey I 53 00:02:46,260 --> 00:02:49,770 Larry Diamond: think had required a totally new set of thinking, and 54 00:02:49,980 --> 00:02:53,220 Larry Diamond: also people. And knowing when to bring certain people in, 55 00:02:53,580 --> 00:02:57,179 Larry Diamond: when to potentially move certain people into different roles. For 56 00:02:57,179 --> 00:02:59,910 Larry Diamond: me personally, it's been the execution path and why I've 57 00:02:59,910 --> 00:03:01,829 Larry Diamond: probably had 10 jobs in 10 years. 58 00:03:02,910 --> 00:03:05,850 Peter Gray: As you touched on, there's certainly noise externally with regards 59 00:03:05,850 --> 00:03:09,539 Peter Gray: to the regulatory framework. We have a clear understanding of 60 00:03:09,540 --> 00:03:12,360 Peter Gray: that and we've structured the business to be compliant no 61 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,539 Peter Gray: matter what the regulatory position, and that will come out 62 00:03:15,540 --> 00:03:17,849 Peter Gray: as a competitive advantage going forward, particularly in a market 63 00:03:17,850 --> 00:03:21,510 Peter Gray: like Australia. So some of the outside noise we've certainly understood, but we've 64 00:03:21,510 --> 00:03:23,608 Peter Gray: remained focused on what we can control. 65 00:03:24,510 --> 00:03:26,099 Sean Aylmer: I want to get into the regulation because that is 66 00:03:26,099 --> 00:03:28,950 Sean Aylmer: a big issue for the industry though. You guys have 67 00:03:28,950 --> 00:03:31,170 Sean Aylmer: come out and you said you've structured yourself such that 68 00:03:31,380 --> 00:03:34,799 Sean Aylmer: you're not against regulation and in fact it might actually 69 00:03:34,799 --> 00:03:39,029 Sean Aylmer: be good for the sector. Is that reflecting your views 70 00:03:39,030 --> 00:03:39,330 Sean Aylmer: on that? 71 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,180 Peter Gray: Yeah, very much so. I think when we established the 72 00:03:42,180 --> 00:03:45,330 Peter Gray: business in 2013, look, it was very clear what ASIC 73 00:03:45,330 --> 00:03:48,929 Peter Gray: was asking of industry participants with regards to their lens 74 00:03:48,929 --> 00:03:52,709 Peter Gray: of responsibility, with regards to providing financial services products. So 75 00:03:52,709 --> 00:03:55,620 Peter Gray: while some of our products existed in an area that 76 00:03:55,620 --> 00:03:58,860 Peter Gray: was not currently regulated under the credit legislation, we actually 77 00:03:58,860 --> 00:04:02,309 Peter Gray: built the business to ensure that our products were compliant 78 00:04:02,309 --> 00:04:04,770 Peter Gray: with existing credit regulations, so we have had a credit 79 00:04:04,770 --> 00:04:08,849 Peter Gray: license from day one. We have conducted responsible lending checks 80 00:04:08,849 --> 00:04:11,580 Peter Gray: on all our customers' ID and credit checks since inception, so we're 81 00:04:11,730 --> 00:04:16,289 Peter Gray: really well- placed understanding the external position, and we have 82 00:04:16,290 --> 00:04:20,700 Peter Gray: advocated publicly for further regulation since 2019, understanding that the 83 00:04:20,700 --> 00:04:23,099 Peter Gray: business and the model and the industry was at a 84 00:04:23,099 --> 00:04:26,249 Peter Gray: certain size where fit- for- purpose regulation was appropriate given 85 00:04:26,250 --> 00:04:28,830 Peter Gray: that millions of Australians were now using our products and 86 00:04:28,830 --> 00:04:32,070 Peter Gray: services and the likes of Afterpay had grown very rapidly 87 00:04:32,070 --> 00:04:34,589 Peter Gray: as well. So we think definitely the timing is right 88 00:04:34,589 --> 00:04:38,518 Peter Gray: and appropriate and we think fit- for- purpose regulation will 89 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,789 Peter Gray: provide industry participants and those external to the industry with 90 00:04:42,029 --> 00:04:45,900 Peter Gray: confidence, with an understanding of what minimum standards are being 91 00:04:45,900 --> 00:04:48,540 Peter Gray: delivered by all participants in the industry. So it's very 92 00:04:48,540 --> 00:04:52,560 Peter Gray: important that that balance between consumer protections, while not stifling 93 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,740 Peter Gray: innovation and competition, is delivered. And we applaud the government 94 00:04:55,740 --> 00:04:59,789 Peter Gray: for taking Treasury's option two as the recommendation, which does 95 00:05:00,029 --> 00:05:03,238 Peter Gray: promote fit- for- purpose regulation where industry participants will be 96 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,210 Peter Gray: required to be licensed, they'll be doing fit- for- purpose 97 00:05:06,210 --> 00:05:10,380 Peter Gray: and scalables, and responsible lending checks for new customers. So we believe 98 00:05:10,380 --> 00:05:15,058 Peter Gray: that's a really important framework to provide confidence and transparency 99 00:05:15,330 --> 00:05:18,299 Peter Gray: into the industry. Now, that will be minimal change for 100 00:05:18,300 --> 00:05:21,479 Peter Gray: Zip in terms of our operating model. We're compliant with 101 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:25,589 Peter Gray: those changes already, but it might be somewhat challenging for 102 00:05:25,589 --> 00:05:28,380 Peter Gray: some of the competitive peers to continue to operate in 103 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,260 Peter Gray: exactly the same way they're now. So we believe that 104 00:05:31,260 --> 00:05:34,440 Peter Gray: is likely to lead to further consolidation and the ability 105 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,470 Peter Gray: for Zip to increase our overall market share. 106 00:05:37,950 --> 00:05:40,050 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Larry. Peter, we'll be back in a 107 00:05:40,050 --> 00:05:40,380 Sean Aylmer: minute. 108 00:05:46,380 --> 00:05:49,050 Sean Aylmer: My guests today are Larry Diamond and Peter Gray, co- 109 00:05:49,050 --> 00:05:52,829 Sean Aylmer: founders of Zip Co. What about being an ASX- listed company? 110 00:05:52,830 --> 00:05:57,029 Sean Aylmer: Because you certainly have seen the highs and lows of that. Mid- COVID, 111 00:05:57,299 --> 00:05:59,609 Sean Aylmer: I think you were trading above $12 a share or 112 00:05:59,609 --> 00:06:01,830 Sean Aylmer: something or other. You are well down on that. You're 113 00:06:01,830 --> 00:06:05,010 Sean Aylmer: about 42 cents I think it was yesterday. I'm looking 114 00:06:05,010 --> 00:06:07,140 Sean Aylmer: for the pros and cons of that. Great when times 115 00:06:07,140 --> 00:06:08,669 Sean Aylmer: are good, pretty tough when times are bad. 116 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,419 Larry Diamond: What we reflect on, and I always joke we're the only 117 00:06:12,420 --> 00:06:15,988 Larry Diamond: FinTech company globally that's bought a mining corporation. We can 118 00:06:15,990 --> 00:06:18,239 Larry Diamond: talk about that a little bit later. But I think 119 00:06:18,449 --> 00:06:21,030 Larry Diamond: in the Australian market, certainly when we kicked things off 120 00:06:21,210 --> 00:06:23,700 Larry Diamond: and we were looking to do funding round, the VC (Venture Capital) 121 00:06:23,700 --> 00:06:28,109 Larry Diamond: and private technology investment sector was pretty nascent. And so 122 00:06:28,860 --> 00:06:32,039 Larry Diamond: we've always seen the ASX and the public markets, particularly 123 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:36,059 Larry Diamond: in Australia, as a fantastic place to drive technology and 124 00:06:36,059 --> 00:06:39,750 Larry Diamond: growth stocks. We have superannuation here. A lot of that money comes into 125 00:06:39,750 --> 00:06:42,510 Larry Diamond: those capital markets, and it has allowed us to grow 126 00:06:42,510 --> 00:06:45,058 Larry Diamond: and do things that I think would've been incredibly challenging 127 00:06:45,389 --> 00:06:48,868 Larry Diamond: in a private market. Now obviously, as you say, it 128 00:06:48,870 --> 00:06:51,719 Larry Diamond: has been a little bit of a rollercoaster. We've followed 129 00:06:52,020 --> 00:06:55,800 Larry Diamond: technology stocks and FinTech stocks up and down. But in general, 130 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:58,440 Larry Diamond: we see our role in the company as one to 131 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,639 Larry Diamond: shield our staff. When times are good, we'd come out 132 00:07:02,639 --> 00:07:05,039 Larry Diamond: and tell them not to rest on their laurels, make 133 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,769 Larry Diamond: sure that we focus on product, we focus on customer experience, 134 00:07:07,770 --> 00:07:11,459 Larry Diamond: because ultimately the numbers will dictate where we go. And 135 00:07:11,459 --> 00:07:15,450 Larry Diamond: equally now, when share price is not doing very, very well, 136 00:07:15,750 --> 00:07:18,870 Larry Diamond: to keep people focused on what they can control. We 137 00:07:18,870 --> 00:07:21,510 Larry Diamond: have customers that love us, are obsessed with us, merchants 138 00:07:21,510 --> 00:07:24,120 Larry Diamond: that were really making a huge difference. And if we just 139 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,330 Larry Diamond: focus on that and drive the numbers, then ultimately the 140 00:07:27,330 --> 00:07:31,290 Larry Diamond: market will take care of itself. And so we are long- 141 00:07:31,290 --> 00:07:34,800 Larry Diamond: term owners of the business. Sorry, our staff. We provide 142 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:36,960 Larry Diamond: stock to our staff and they're also long- term holders. 143 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,179 Larry Diamond: They're not traders. And we try to keep them focused 144 00:07:39,179 --> 00:07:39,840 Larry Diamond: on the north star. 145 00:07:40,740 --> 00:07:43,440 Sean Aylmer: So what's the strategy for the next two, three, five 146 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,910 Sean Aylmer: years for Zip Co? Given this background of regulation and 147 00:07:47,910 --> 00:07:50,670 Sean Aylmer: you are compliant, so that in some ways holds you 148 00:07:50,670 --> 00:07:53,430 Sean Aylmer: in very good stead to keep operating, but how do 149 00:07:53,430 --> 00:07:55,890 Sean Aylmer: you see Zip going the next few years? 150 00:07:56,610 --> 00:07:58,619 Peter Gray: Yeah, really excited about the next two years and I 151 00:07:58,620 --> 00:08:02,040 Peter Gray: think we've openly disclosed the strategy to focus on the 152 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,409 Peter Gray: two core markets at the moment. So in a market 153 00:08:04,410 --> 00:08:08,580 Peter Gray: like Australia where we're slightly more mature, 10 years, as 154 00:08:08,580 --> 00:08:11,550 Peter Gray: we touched on earlier in terms of time in markets, 155 00:08:11,550 --> 00:08:14,309 Peter Gray: so we're really excited to almost go on the phase 156 00:08:14,309 --> 00:08:19,679 Peter Gray: two of the BNPL (Buy Now Pay Later) and next generation financial services model in the 157 00:08:19,679 --> 00:08:22,200 Peter Gray: Australian market. So I think the next level of growth 158 00:08:22,529 --> 00:08:24,870 Peter Gray: and step change growth will likely come from launching new 159 00:08:24,870 --> 00:08:29,640 Peter Gray: products and services to our existing customers. BNPL(Buy Now Pay Later) is a 160 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,820 Peter Gray: great model and, as we've demonstrated, is a profitable model. 161 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,700 Peter Gray: It's a great way to acquire customers on a relatively 162 00:08:35,700 --> 00:08:39,328 Peter Gray: cheap acquisition basis. But I think the exciting bit for 163 00:08:39,389 --> 00:08:42,119 Peter Gray: the Australian business is that next level of growth, that 164 00:08:42,119 --> 00:08:45,780 Peter Gray: step change from phase two of next generation financial services 165 00:08:45,780 --> 00:08:48,809 Peter Gray: as we broaden our offering. And Larry might touch on 166 00:08:48,809 --> 00:08:50,820 Peter Gray: what's so exciting about the US business. 167 00:08:51,750 --> 00:08:56,280 Larry Diamond: Yeah, I think it's a very similar story. Our products today 168 00:08:56,700 --> 00:09:00,509 Larry Diamond: are loved and obsessed by customers, and I think we've 169 00:09:00,510 --> 00:09:04,830 Larry Diamond: become incredibly customer- centric, because ultimately we see payments as 170 00:09:04,830 --> 00:09:07,860 Larry Diamond: the access point between us and the relationship with the customer. 171 00:09:07,860 --> 00:09:10,800 Larry Diamond: And if they're using us every day, multiple times through 172 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,499 Larry Diamond: the day, we become really, really important to them. Our 173 00:09:13,500 --> 00:09:15,900 Larry Diamond: first set of products has been all about disrupting the 174 00:09:15,900 --> 00:09:18,958 Larry Diamond: world of credit, doing it fair, doing it responsibly, and 175 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,270 Larry Diamond: doing it in a way that meets the customers where they are. 176 00:09:22,110 --> 00:09:24,840 Larry Diamond: Customers are no longer walking into a banking branch and 177 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,150 Larry Diamond: applying for financial services. They're doing it out there in 178 00:09:27,150 --> 00:09:31,650 Larry Diamond: this decentralised, distributed world where you have embedded finance, and 179 00:09:31,650 --> 00:09:35,609 Larry Diamond: we've really nailed that proposition. Credit installments I think has 180 00:09:35,609 --> 00:09:37,828 Larry Diamond: still got a long way to go. We can be 181 00:09:37,830 --> 00:09:42,510 Larry Diamond: the best at providing unsecured credit to customers both here 182 00:09:42,570 --> 00:09:44,910 Larry Diamond: and in the US. And in the US particularly, there's a 183 00:09:44,910 --> 00:09:48,299 Larry Diamond: huge segment of the population that's really underserved by the 184 00:09:48,300 --> 00:09:50,700 Larry Diamond: traditional banks, and so we believe we can be the 185 00:09:50,700 --> 00:09:55,530 Larry Diamond: best at underwriting, understanding these customers, utilizing traditional credit data, 186 00:09:55,530 --> 00:09:58,470 Larry Diamond: but also non- traditional credit data to understand them. But 187 00:09:58,470 --> 00:10:01,380 Larry Diamond: we have ambitions to be the first payment choice everywhere 188 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:03,929 Larry Diamond: and every day, so we'd really like to round out 189 00:10:03,929 --> 00:10:08,729 Larry Diamond: the types of services that our customers are using. Australia, 190 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,458 Larry Diamond: we're 10 years in. The US, we're more like five 191 00:10:11,458 --> 00:10:13,740 Larry Diamond: years in, and so we've got a long way to 192 00:10:13,740 --> 00:10:16,950 Larry Diamond: go there, but the brand's resonating. We want to be 193 00:10:16,950 --> 00:10:19,320 Larry Diamond: seen as being on the side of customer. When they 194 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,660 Larry Diamond: click our button, they know that we have their back. 195 00:10:22,469 --> 00:10:23,910 Sean Aylmer: We're out of time, but I've got to ask about 196 00:10:23,910 --> 00:10:26,190 Sean Aylmer: the mining company. Tell me about the mining company. 197 00:10:27,839 --> 00:10:28,350 Larry Diamond: What do you want to know? 198 00:10:29,250 --> 00:10:31,590 Sean Aylmer: You've got a mining company. I didn't realize that you 199 00:10:31,590 --> 00:10:32,430 Sean Aylmer: owned a mining company. 200 00:10:33,179 --> 00:10:35,550 Larry Diamond: Yeah, so as you say, founders will do whatever it 201 00:10:35,550 --> 00:10:39,059 Larry Diamond: takes to cut their way out of the jungle. And if 202 00:10:39,059 --> 00:10:43,979 Larry Diamond: we cast the clock back to 2015, '16, we are 203 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,949 Larry Diamond: two to three years into our journey. We've got a 204 00:10:47,190 --> 00:10:50,550 Larry Diamond: fantastic team, we've got a product that's resonating, we need 205 00:10:50,550 --> 00:10:53,910 Larry Diamond: the next leg of funding and it was pretty difficult 206 00:10:53,910 --> 00:10:56,790 Larry Diamond: to raise money privately. And a friend of ours over 207 00:10:56,790 --> 00:10:59,610 Larry Diamond: in Western Australia said, " There's this publicly listed company called 208 00:10:59,820 --> 00:11:03,270 Larry Diamond: Rubianna Resources, it raised tens of millions of dollars to 209 00:11:03,270 --> 00:11:06,539 Larry Diamond: dig for gold and copper, hasn't been very successful. Would 210 00:11:06,570 --> 00:11:08,850 Larry Diamond: you like to acquire the company and effectively do a 211 00:11:09,179 --> 00:11:12,390 Larry Diamond: reverse listing, re- comply with chapters one and two?" So 212 00:11:12,390 --> 00:11:15,059 Larry Diamond: Pete and I went over to Perth. We did three 213 00:11:15,059 --> 00:11:18,358 Larry Diamond: months due diligence on the hard rock miner, managed to 214 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,360 Larry Diamond: surrender the permits back to the government. I think the 215 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,270 Larry Diamond: one mine that had actually dug, we managed to sell 216 00:11:24,270 --> 00:11:27,689 Larry Diamond: through a back- to- back agreement, and we bought the 217 00:11:27,690 --> 00:11:31,500 Larry Diamond: mine, it acquired us, and we took over control of 218 00:11:31,500 --> 00:11:34,468 Larry Diamond: the listed company, changed the name, and the rest is history. 219 00:11:35,190 --> 00:11:37,679 Sean Aylmer: Fantastic. Now we have Zip Co. Larry, Peter, thank you 220 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:38,790 Sean Aylmer: for talking to Fear and Greed. 221 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:40,290 Peter Gray: Thanks, Sean. Any time. 222 00:11:40,410 --> 00:11:41,159 Larry Diamond: Thanks for having us. 223 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,520 Sean Aylmer: That was Larry Diamond and Peter Gray, co- founders of 224 00:11:44,580 --> 00:11:46,980 Sean Aylmer: Zip Co. This is the Fear and Greed daily interview. 225 00:11:46,980 --> 00:11:48,900 Sean Aylmer: Join us every morning for the full episode of Fear 226 00:11:48,900 --> 00:11:52,319 Sean Aylmer: and Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. 227 00:11:52,530 --> 00:11:53,190 Sean Aylmer: Enjoy your day.