1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:01,080 Speaker 1: Good a team. 2 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,560 Speaker 2: This is part two of the conversation we started yesterday 3 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 2: with Sabrina, hope you're enjoying it. I won't get in 4 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 2: the way of what is to come enjoy. 5 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: See you at the end. Does that mean Sabrina your 6 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: honor doctor? Does that mean that? 7 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 2: Like my thinking is generally like when I would like, 8 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 2: I've worked with first responders over here, with Victoria police 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:28,319 Speaker 2: and with the military a little bit, and with lots 10 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 2: of elite athletes. And we just did a big study 11 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 2: out of Monash where I study which I had my 12 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 2: first academic paper published, which is hilarious, which is hilarious. 13 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 2: Hang on because there's like fifty authors, so I really 14 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 2: don't deserve any credit whatsoever, but my name is on it. 15 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 2: What I wanted to say was, generally speaking, we train 16 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 2: a soldiers and police, especially the special operators like in 17 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 2: Victoria they call it Special Operations Group, they call them soggies, 18 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 2: and you know the elite soldiers where they do a 19 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 2: lot of like intense high level, high pressure, uncomfortable like 20 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 2: they just get put through the grind. It's it's as 21 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 2: it's as as realistic as it can be without it 22 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 2: being real. Is there a similar approach to train firefighters 23 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 2: to be able to deal with that, because you can't 24 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 2: perform under pressure if you're never under pressure. 25 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, totally agree. I totally agree. And if you are 26 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 3: just going through the motions. I mean, there's an element 27 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,119 Speaker 3: where you can do that for skills development, right where 28 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,559 Speaker 3: you're learning a skill and you're doing it slow time 29 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 3: and then you get better at it. But unless you're 30 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 3: actually testing that skill under pressure, actually, how do you 31 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 3: know that you're going to be able to use it 32 00:01:57,600 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 3: when you need to use it, because, by the way, 33 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 3: that time is going to be under intense pressure, both 34 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 3: in terms of the pressure of the environment, the moral 35 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 3: pressure that you're under from people who are watching on 36 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 3: the people that you might be trying to rescue, and 37 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 3: experiencing someone else. You know, when someone else is in 38 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 3: pain or someone else has just experienced the death of 39 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 3: someone that they love literally next to them in a 40 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 3: car or in a house that you've managed to rescue 41 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 3: one from, and someone else, there is nothing that prepares 42 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 3: you for the emotion that you hear in that person's 43 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 3: There is nothing that prepares you for that. But you 44 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 3: have to carry on. You have to be able to 45 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 3: do what you need to do. And I'm particularly interested 46 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 3: in non technical skills. In the UK, we term them 47 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 3: command skills, so your ability to make decisions, your situational awareness, 48 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,639 Speaker 3: your communication skills, your leadership skills, your ability to work 49 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 3: as a part of a team. You know, all of 50 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 3: these things are skills. They're not you know, they're not. 51 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 3: They're not some kind of higher gift that you get 52 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 3: that you know you're kind of born with. If you're 53 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 3: either a great decision maker or you're not, you've got 54 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 3: to work at it. And working at it means doing 55 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 3: it in the kind of environment that you're readily going 56 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 3: to expect to use it in, and in our world, 57 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 3: that means that it's going to be emotionally charged, dynamically changing, 58 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 3: with little or incomplete information, sometimes inaccurate information, and it's 59 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 3: really tough. And it's a bit like swimming. If you 60 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 3: wanted to swim the length of the channel or swim 61 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 3: in the sea, but you only ever trained in an 62 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 3: Olympic sized swimming pool. You know what, you might be 63 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 3: the fastest, the best, that you might have the greatest 64 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 3: endurance in a pool, but as soon as you get 65 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 3: out in the sea, even though it's the same skill, 66 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 3: the context is so different, the application changes, and so 67 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 3: you're not going to be able to do it in 68 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 3: the same way. And those kind of non technical skills, 69 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 3: the development of those are similar. So whatever technical skill 70 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 3: you might be doing under pressure, it is determined by 71 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 3: your non technical skills. Your ability to make a judgment 72 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 3: on when that needs to applied or how that needs 73 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 3: to be applied, Your ability to communicate your intentions, your 74 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 3: ability to absorb the information from around you that you 75 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 3: need to create, your situational awareness, your mental picture, that 76 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 3: which is the basis of every single decision and every 77 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 3: single judgment that you make. That is tough, and if 78 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 3: you want to do that under pressure, we need to 79 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 3: recognize that stress affects the processing capacity that you have available. 80 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 3: It reduces it, so you have less processing capacity available 81 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 3: to absorb that information. You have less processing capacity available 82 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 3: to make a decision, You have less processing capacity available 83 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 3: to think about the message that you're trying to communicate 84 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 3: and whether or not that meaning has landed in the 85 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 3: way that you intended it to land. These are all 86 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 3: really important factors for the success of the overarching incident 87 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 3: because it's complex. So if you want those to work effectively. 88 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 3: You have to train them under pressure. Is no good 89 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 3: just doing it in slow time. You have to train 90 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 3: under pressure, and so making people feel uncomfortable by putting 91 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 3: if you're doing a command at exercise, for example, by 92 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 3: throwing lots of injects in so you don't have time 93 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 3: to think about something, you don't have the luxury of 94 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 3: being able to hold lots of things together in your 95 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 3: mind at one point. It creates that sense of pressure 96 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 3: where you then have to prioritize your activity. And actually, 97 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 3: even if in real time the situation might not be 98 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 3: like that for the full duration of the hour that 99 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 3: your command exercise is, actually you're compressing it, and so 100 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 3: what you get is like really deep practice. If you've 101 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 3: heard the term deep practice, it's what you're kind of synthesizing, 102 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 3: and it's about feeling uncomfortable. It's about doing things wrong 103 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 3: and then repeating them in a different way so that 104 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 3: you can do it better next time. But creating that 105 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 3: sense of pressure in whatever way you can do it 106 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 3: is super important. I'm a really big fan of realistic exercises. 107 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 3: I know they're super expensive to do. I know it's hard, 108 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 3: especially when you get places like I mean in the UK, 109 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 3: we have the Casualties Union, who are an amazing group 110 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 3: of people, many of whom are amputees who've been through 111 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 3: traumatic incidents themselves, who will come in and role play 112 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 3: that they have incredible makeup on to simulate, to simulate 113 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 3: traumatic injuries, and they respond in a way that is 114 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 3: really realistic. And these people are incredible because bear in 115 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 3: mind they've had their own traumas. To come in and 116 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 3: to be able to do that those experiences to help 117 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 3: develop the people that they know other people will rely 118 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 3: on in the future to go and rescue them from 119 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 3: similar circumstances is a level of courage that to me 120 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 3: is absolutely god worthy. It is awesome. But that kind 121 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 3: of realistic opportunity is worth waiting gold, absolutely worth its 122 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 3: weight in gold. But whatever you're doing when you're training, 123 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 3: don't just go through the motions. Don't just go to 124 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 3: get through the end of the exercise. Make it count. 125 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 3: You can never train too hard for a job where 126 00:06:57,960 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 3: you know people die. 127 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 2: I love that and it's so like I always you know, 128 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,799 Speaker 2: I use this analogy of white belt to black belt 129 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 2: and I say, you know, the way that you become 130 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 2: a black belt in any martial art is you start 131 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 2: as a white belt, you get punched in the face, 132 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 2: you get kicked in the deck, you get choked. 133 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: You know, this is what happens. 134 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 2: You know, you get beaten up, and then eventually you're 135 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 2: a yellow, then eventually a green, and a brown, and 136 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 2: a purple and a blue, and then whatever the system is, 137 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 2: you know, and then one day you wake up. You're 138 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 2: the same person with the same potential and the same genetics, 139 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 2: but now you've got new skills, new awareness, new resilience, 140 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 2: new understanding, new insight, same human but not really. And 141 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 2: now you've got that you can perform under a level 142 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 2: of pressure that you couldn't even think about when you're 143 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 2: a white belt, because you didn't know what you were doing. 144 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 2: You couldn't be calm, you didn't know how to self regulate. 145 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 2: And now five six, seven, eight, ten years down the track, 146 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 2: you've got this high level of ability and skill to 147 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 2: be able to do this thing that most people can't. 148 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 2: And it's because you did the work, and it's because 149 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 2: you weren't fucking around. It's because you had five dislocated 150 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 2: elbows and these, it's because you've got a thousand black eyes, 151 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 2: it's because you've got choked fifty times. It's like that's 152 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 2: you can't get good at the thing that you're not doing. 153 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: You can't master the thing that you avoid. 154 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 2: And you can read about it and hear about it 155 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 2: and watch fucking videos on it and listen to lectures 156 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 2: about it, but unless you're actually doing it, like unless 157 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 2: you're actually at the coal face, rolling up your sleeves 158 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 2: and doing the shit or a version of it, then 159 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 2: when the storm cometh, Brothers and Sisters. 160 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: You capitulate. 161 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 2: You know, We've had lots of people and speaking to that, 162 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 2: just as an example, we've had people on the show 163 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 2: and I can't say who, but it doesn't matter. 164 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: Well, no, I can't say who. 165 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 2: But even something like this where people can obviously, you know, 166 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 2: they've got their expertise like you, they've got skill knowledge, 167 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 2: you know, all of that. They can communicate and sometimes 168 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 2: they've written a book and you know, some whatever. But 169 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 2: then you put them on either I used to work 170 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 2: in radio as well, and so you put them in 171 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 2: a radio interview or on an interview with this where 172 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,199 Speaker 2: you say, you know, you give them a backstory of 173 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 2: you know, how many people listen and what we do 174 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 2: and and all of a sudden and we're live. That 175 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 2: person goes from being interesting and funny and articulate too. Yes, no, no, yeah, 176 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 2: I'm like, fucking hell, somebody just removed his personality in 177 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 2: the last thirty seconds. And it's just it's terrible because 178 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 2: to them, there's when you say, I used to say 179 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 2: to people, there's only twenty thousand people, don't you know listening, 180 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,199 Speaker 2: don't worry, And I would say that's fuck around. I 181 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 2: don't say it anymore, or how I can say it 182 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 2: to you because you do this all the time. But like, 183 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 2: and then people, especially if you're thinking of a stadium 184 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 2: of humans or something, that's something that they do all 185 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 2: the time, which is talk and share and educate. Now 186 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 2: you're doing it in a different context and they can't 187 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 2: string three words together because there's a level, a self 188 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 2: created level of pressure. 189 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and maybe I influenced that a little bit. 190 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 3: It's true though, And it's you know, it's really similar 191 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 3: when you think about things like, you know, even a 192 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 3: job interview or a presentation. 193 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 4: How many times when. 194 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 3: You've got a big presentation, have you kind of practiced 195 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 3: that in front of a plant pot or in front 196 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 3: of the dog. Well, guess what the dog's never going 197 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 3: to troll you on Twitter. 198 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 5: It's a safe environment. You know, You've got to do 199 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 5: it in front of people that make you feel uncomfortable, 200 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 5: because when you step in to do that presentation or 201 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 5: that job interview, you're going to be running on adrenaline. 202 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 5: You're going to feel anxious, you're going to feel uncomfortable. 203 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 5: So you need to know that you can do it 204 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 5: despite that feeling. You need to know that you've practiced 205 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 5: it in that kind of enviroment. You need to know 206 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 5: the places that your head is going to go blank, 207 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 5: where you're going to stumble, so then you can go 208 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 5: and focus on those bits and make sure you know 209 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 5: it better. 210 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 3: You know that for me, it's a gift. It's an 211 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 3: absolute gift to have an opportunity to practice something before 212 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 3: you go in and before you do it, and to 213 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 3: develop those skills. And if it means, you know, you 214 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 3: feel uncomfortable, it means you mess something up, or it 215 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 3: means you feel a bit silly, well, you know what, 216 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 3: that's a really small price to pay for all of 217 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 3: the good stuff that could come out of you being 218 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 3: successful at this, you know, and in my world that 219 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 3: means people walk away, They get to go back to 220 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 3: their families. At the end of the day. There's not 221 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 3: this great, big void left by someone that's no longer 222 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 3: walking this planet. What a gift, What a gift. 223 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 2: A couple of years ago, and I know you've got 224 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 2: to go. We'll talk about your book in a moment. 225 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 2: But a couple of years ago, Sabrina, that's actually it 226 00:11:58,559 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 2: was it three years ago, the Crab. 227 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, three yeah, So I was. 228 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,599 Speaker 2: You know, I think I told you before when it 229 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 2: went live. I've been training my whole life. I owned 230 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 2: gyms all that, so go to the gym every day 231 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 2: and just left. Shit, I'm not very good anymore. I'm old, 232 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 2: I'm a bit fucked. But anyway, I still go down, 233 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 2: you know, sit on a dumbbell. But anyway, The Crab 234 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 2: my training partner, Mark, who I lovingly call the Crab 235 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: because he moves like a crab. He's like a large 236 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 2: crustacean with biceps. But anyway, so we were training and 237 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 2: he did a set of chin ups, held his breath 238 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,439 Speaker 2: the whole time. Sabrina did thirty chin ups, not an exaggeration. 239 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 2: X pro body built, a very strong, very big all 240 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 2: of that. Did thirty chins came down and went to 241 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 2: his hands and knees, and I thought he was having 242 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 2: a seizure, and he had a cardiac arrest and died 243 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 2: in the gym, on the gym floor. So he came 244 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 2: back to life. I need say that quickly, but he 245 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 2: was dead for seventeen minutes. And and talk about, you know, 246 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 2: people under pressure, I would say there was. There's probably 247 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 2: twenty people in the gym, but in him because there's 248 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 2: there's levels to the gym. But within a couple of 249 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 2: minutes there were thirty or forty people in the gym, 250 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 2: and so i'd you know, his big unit is one 251 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 2: hundred kilos, which I don't know what that is in 252 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:29,839 Speaker 2: stone seventeen stone maybe, So I you know, I got 253 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 2: him on his back, I got him into a position 254 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 2: where I could work on him. And I did that 255 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 2: like as soon as I realized what had happened, which 256 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 2: was quite quickly. 257 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 1: So I started. 258 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 2: Working on him by myself. Now thirty people were standing 259 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 2: on the other side of the gym, not one thing 260 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 2: like looking terrified. Not one person went what can I do? 261 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 2: Not one person said can I help? And so I 262 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 2: just looked up and said I need somebody and they 263 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 2: all stood there like nobody came, and so here's here's 264 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 2: my friend on the floor. I'm doing the compressions and 265 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 2: the breaths. I'm so I'm alternating, and I'm you know, 266 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 2: I'm busy. 267 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: I got shipped on and. 268 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 2: I look up and nobody moved forward. Nobody came. 269 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: They all just stood there looking terrified. 270 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 2: And then this one bloke kind of looked semi like 271 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 2: like he was thinking about it. And I said, what's 272 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 2: your name? And he said his name? And I said, 273 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 2: let's just go, Steve, and I said, Steven, get the 274 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 2: fuck over here. He's like, I don't know what to do. 275 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 2: I go get the fuck over here. I'll tell you 276 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 2: what to do, right and that that But that a maze. Well, 277 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 2: that was messy, and that was you know, like a 278 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 2: daunting scenario, of course, but I was upon reflection later, 279 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 2: I was amazed at how I don't know if nobody 280 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 2: knew what to do, but nobody, nobody came forward. Like 281 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: I literally had to swear at someone to get someone 282 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 2: to help me. And that's, you know, because who's standing 283 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 2: next to someone when they die. Very few people, you know, 284 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 2: not in not where we live anyway, you know, and 285 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 2: then so you're right, people just don't know what to do. Yeah, 286 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 2: and normally comfortable, competent, you know, pretty adaptable, flexible people 287 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 2: fucking freeze in certain circumstances. Do you know. 288 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 3: Well, firstly, I'm really sorry that you had that experience, 289 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 3: but also you are incredible because you have literally saved 290 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 3: Mark's life there in that in that scenario. So he's 291 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 3: alive because of the intervention that you made, and that's 292 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 3: that's pretty incredible and definitely something worth recognizing. But it's 293 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 3: it's funny how other people respond in a situation where 294 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 3: they feel deeply uncomfortable. There's been some really interesting research 295 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 3: that's looked at how when in an emergency situation, if 296 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 3: there's somebody that's already intervening, other people will stand by, 297 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 3: will be less likely to come forward and help because 298 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 3: they think it's dealt with. And it's really challenging because 299 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 3: in that kind of circumstance, actually you need all the 300 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 3: hands that you can get right, You need that help 301 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 3: and you need that support, and some of it comes 302 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 3: from a lack of confidence, I think. And it's interesting, 303 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 3: you know, because we almost had kind of the opposite 304 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 3: problem in the fire service. So there was. One of 305 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 3: the things that we introduced when we were doing all 306 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 3: of the research and the policy changes on the back 307 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 3: of the research was some work around something that we 308 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 3: term operational discretion, and that's the flexibility to recognize when 309 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 3: a policy doesn't apply that you will actually do what 310 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 3: you think needs to be done, used your professional judgment 311 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 3: to do whatever you need to do in that circumstance. 312 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 3: And there were some incidents, some really high profile incidents 313 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 3: that we had in the UK where people had died 314 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 3: because people were One of the contributing factors part of me. 315 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 3: One of the contributing factors was that everybody was so 316 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 3: focused on sticking to the policy that the policy wouldn't 317 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 3: have worked for that situation. Sticking to the policy actually 318 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 3: made the outcome worse. There was one called there was 319 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 3: one in Gosden Mine where a mine shaft had collapsed 320 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 3: and a lady had fallen down the mine shaft and 321 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 3: was trapped down there for a considerable amount of time, 322 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 3: and one of the incident commanders, the fire commanders, wanted 323 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,360 Speaker 3: to adapt some equipment to be able to get them out, 324 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 3: and another disagreed because it was outside of policy and 325 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 3: stopped it all and insisted on waiting for the mine rescue, 326 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 3: and the woman ended up being trapped down there for 327 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 3: so long that one of the contributing factors to her 328 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 3: death was hypothermia. Now it would be wrong to say 329 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 3: it was solely because of the the delay caused by 330 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 3: that or sticking rigidly to the policy, but what was 331 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 3: talked about by the judge afterwards when they were looking 332 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 3: at her death is that that was one of the 333 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 3: inflexibility was one of the contributing factors. So it's funny 334 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 3: because if you were not in a uniform, you'd grab 335 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 3: whatever you could grab and you would do what you 336 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 3: could to try to make it work right. But as 337 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 3: soon as you put up that uniform, you have that 338 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 3: different responsibility, that different level of accountability, and the judgments 339 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 3: I think, and you know, the judgment that you would 340 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 3: have after an event once you're wearing that uniform and 341 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 3: representing one of the services is far greater than a 342 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 3: member of the public would have if they were just 343 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 3: trying to do their best to help out. Of the 344 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 3: things that we introduced was this concept of operational discretion, 345 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 3: where if you recognize that adhering strictly to the policy, 346 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 3: either is going to make it worse because that happens sometimes, 347 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 3: or the policy it's such a novel situation that the 348 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 3: policy does apply, then it gives that kind of flexibility 349 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 3: to choose what to do in that circumstance. And we 350 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 3: did some research on this, and we were looking at 351 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:12,400 Speaker 3: the impact of stress and uncertainty on decision making when 352 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 3: applying operational discretion. That was our kind of driver for it, 353 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 3: and we gave fire commanders two scenarios. One was really 354 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 3: straightforward runn of the mail. It was a high rise 355 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 3: fire where they knew what to do, they knew what 356 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 3: to expect them, was a super superclear policy, no need 357 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 3: to deviate. And the other one was similar to this. 358 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 3: It was a mind shaft. It had collapsed, a sinkhole, sorry, 359 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:35,479 Speaker 3: it had collapsed, and there was a group of children 360 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 3: stuck at the bottom and it was outside of the 361 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 3: reach of their normal equipment. So you would have to 362 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 3: use operational discretion. And we took measures of stress as well, 363 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 3: and rather than just relying on self report, because you 364 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 3: could ask a firefighter with a mushroom cloud behind them 365 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 3: how they are and they'd be like, yeah, everything's fine, 366 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 3: I got this under control. Even if the heart beating 367 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 3: tens of the dozerts. So we took blood samples so 368 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,360 Speaker 3: that we could measure it was actually a leukocyte response 369 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 3: rather than a single measure of corters are. We were 370 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 3: looking more holistically at a range of measures, because when 371 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 3: you experience stress, your cells respond differently, and so we 372 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 3: looked at at the leukocyte response to give us a 373 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 3: better measure. And what we found is the more uncertain 374 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 3: the situation, the higher the stress levels. Not surprising there, 375 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 3: but the more uncertain the situation and the higher the 376 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 3: stress levels, the more certain people were to reach for 377 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:31,239 Speaker 3: a set of rules even when they didn't apply. And 378 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 3: so this was a really interesting one because we all 379 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 3: do this sometimes when we're making a decision under uncertainty 380 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 3: or we're not quite sure what to do and it's pressured, 381 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 3: and we'll reach for something that might feel familiar because 382 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 3: it gives us that sense of security, but it might 383 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 3: not actually be the right thing for that set of circumstances. 384 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 3: So my advice to people, whether they're in the fire 385 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 3: service or not, is if you are making a decision 386 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 3: or under the decision under those circumstances and you find 387 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 3: yourself reaching for something that makes you feel better, or 388 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 3: something that gives you that sense of comfort, or something 389 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 3: that's familiar to you. Just pause and just double check 390 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 3: your assumptions to make sure that it's actually delivering the 391 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 3: outcome that you're hoping it's going to deliver. 392 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 2: That makes so much sense, And I can understand why 393 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 2: people do that, because they're protecting themselves because if this 394 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 2: turns out bad, it's not my fault. It's the rules, yeah, 395 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,959 Speaker 2: exactly right. And if I kind of be the rebel 396 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 2: and it turns out bad, it's my fault, whereas it 397 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 2: might have been bad anyway. 398 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 3: You know, it's such a litigious society now as well, 399 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 3: and you know, you see the way that incidents where 400 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 3: people we're not automatons in a uniform. We're human beings. 401 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 3: You know, we're real people at the end of the day. 402 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,199 Speaker 3: And when you see the way that people are judged 403 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 3: after an event who might have got it wrong, but 404 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 3: they've gone in genuinely wanting to do their best, you know, 405 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 3: it could be really difficult then for someone to find 406 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 3: the courage to take a leap to do the thing 407 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 3: that they think needs to be done without that security 408 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 3: of a set of rules to wrap around them. I 409 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 3: get it. 410 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 2: Now. I know you don't have any spare time because 411 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 2: you're an author and you're a mum, and you're a 412 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,400 Speaker 2: dog mum, and you're a wife, and you're a bloody 413 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 2: superstar at fifty things, and you're a researcher and you're 414 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 2: a fire fighter and you've got a thousand test subjects 415 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 2: whenever you want them. But you definitely should have your 416 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 2: own podcast. 417 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 1: Ah, you'd be so good. 418 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 2: Like you're such a brilliant communicator and storyteller, and you 419 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 2: you're such a good science communicator too, because you explain 420 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 2: complicated stuff in an uncomplicated way or what can be 421 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 2: complicated stuff. 422 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 1: Because we're a largely. 423 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 2: Non academic you know, we've got a percentage of academics 424 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 2: that listen, but you know it's not an academic show 425 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 2: per se. 426 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: And so my constant, or my not. 427 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 2: Every episode, but a lot of episodes, I'm trying to 428 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 2: figure out, how do we say this, and how do 429 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,640 Speaker 2: we navigate this conversation and make it you know, interesting, 430 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 2: but also really relevant stable so people can do something 431 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 2: with it. And you just do that automatically. It's a 432 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 2: real gift and a real skill so well done you. 433 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: It's amazing. 434 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 3: Thank you. 435 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: Tell me about before we go, tell me about the book. 436 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: So your book is called The Heat of the Moment. 437 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right to tell us about that, did you? 438 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:21,199 Speaker 1: Is that your one and only book? 439 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 3: I've got another one coming out in March. But the 440 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 3: Heat of the Moment I wanted to take something that 441 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 3: would talk about the way that we make decisions under pressure, 442 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 3: because it doesn't matter what the circumstances are, you know, 443 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 3: our brains are going to work in a similar way. 444 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 3: So I took everything that we'd learned from more than 445 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 3: twenty years of firefighting and more than a decade of 446 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 3: research about how we make decisions in the heat of 447 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 3: the moment, when we're experiencing pressure, and I wanted to 448 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 3: talk about it in a way that could be then 449 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 3: applied to everyday life. So each chapter talks about a 450 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 3: specific aspect of decision making with it gut decision making, 451 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 3: whether it's you know, the way that you develop your 452 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 3: situational awareness, whether it's the way that you communicate all 453 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 3: of these concepts. And it opens with an incident that 454 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 3: I've been to and so that you can see that 455 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 3: part of that aspect of how your brain is working 456 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 3: actually kind of at a real life incident in reality, 457 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 3: and then I unpick the research that's relevant to it, 458 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 3: and then I kind of talk about how it applies 459 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 3: to everyday life as well. So, yeah, that was a 460 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 3: real That was a real labor of love to write. 461 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 3: It was a real joy. Actually, it's just nice to 462 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 3: be able to share what we've done with the broad 463 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,239 Speaker 3: or audience because I think, you know, there are some 464 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 3: really important lessons that we've learned in the fire service, 465 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 3: and they've been learned through a lot of pain, as 466 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 3: I described earlier on. And so isn't it great that 467 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 3: you can share that with as many people as possible 468 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 3: and not just limit it to those that were the 469 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 3: same color perform as you. 470 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 2: Do you think that being able to self regulate in 471 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 2: the middle of the mayhem and you know, make decisions 472 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 2: and stay relatively calm. Do you think that we spoke 473 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 2: about it a little bit before, but do you think 474 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 2: that is more innate? Like I feel like there are 475 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 2: people that are just better than that. And also my 476 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:25,880 Speaker 2: part B of that question is are people more anxious 477 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 2: now than. 478 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: Thirty years ago? Or we just more aware of anxiety? 479 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 3: Sabrina really good question. I think that it's I think 480 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 3: that it's a mixture of nature and nurture every single time. 481 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 3: And I think that it can be developed as well 482 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 3: by what you expose yourself to and how you respond 483 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 3: to that exposure and how willing you are to put 484 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 3: yourself in those uncomfortable situations like we talked about. And 485 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 3: the anxiety question is a really good one. I think 486 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 3: that I don't think people are more anxious than they 487 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 3: are today than they were before. I think they just 488 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 3: wont allowed to show it before because of the societal 489 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 3: pressures that people were experiencing. I think the world was 490 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 3: super different, wasn't it. So I think there's that element. 491 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 3: I mean, there are things that make us feel anxious 492 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 3: today that weren't around before. Exposure or social media, I 493 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 3: think is a key one. I mean, I can have 494 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 3: firefighters at a job and the job will be uploaded 495 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 3: onto YouTube by someone with their camera phone before they've 496 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 3: even packed up and left the scene. You know, so 497 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 3: previously it would never be like that. You never had 498 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 3: to kind of worry about those kind of things. So 499 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 3: I think my point is if someone does make a mistake, 500 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 3: it's usually recorded and there forever and you've seen the 501 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 3: way that people respond publicly to people who've made mistakes, 502 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 3: and it's kind of huge debate, isn't there around cancel 503 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 3: culture and things like that? So I think there is. 504 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 3: I think whilst judgments would have been the same across 505 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 3: the ages, I think that they are a lot more 506 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 3: public now than they perhaps were previously. So it's really difficult, 507 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 3: isn't it to compare times to say whether people were 508 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 3: more anxious thirty years ago or whether they're more anxious today, 509 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 3: because I think the context is so different that it's 510 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 3: really tricky to kind of weigh everything up and go 511 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 3: one or the other. But I certainly think that there 512 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 3: are things today that can make you feel anxious that 513 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 3: you didn't have thirty years ago. I think we have 514 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 3: the luxury today of being able to be really open 515 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 3: about being anxious, which means you can deal with it 516 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 3: better than you might have been able to do thirty 517 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 3: years ago. So there's definitely a silver lining there. 518 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 2: All Right, We've got to go, because I feel like 519 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 2: I'm dragging you you on, but just I'm so interested 520 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 2: in your stuff. I want to ask you two quick 521 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 2: questions and I'm promised we'll go so number one is 522 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 2: so you're all about excellence, high performance, performing under pressure, 523 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 2: you know, being the best you can be. And are 524 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 2: there any other fire serve around the world that you 525 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 2: look at in any country or it might just anywhere 526 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 2: in the world where you go, they're the best, they 527 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 2: are amazing for these reasons. 528 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 3: Oh, I think that's a great question. And I think 529 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 3: there are different fire services that are really excellent at 530 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 3: different things. And sometimes you have the persona of the 531 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 3: biggest and the best, and you hear about, you know, 532 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 3: the great ones around the world and things I won't 533 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 3: mention any names, but when you actually scratch the surface, 534 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 3: they don't always turn out to be as shiny as 535 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 3: you might have thought they were outside. So I think 536 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 3: there's real value if you are looking for the best 537 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 3: in looking really specifically at what you want to see 538 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 3: the best of and not stopping until you've turned over 539 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 3: all the stones that you can to find it, because 540 00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 3: the places that you might find it might just surprise you. 541 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 2: And do you do you ever look across the pond 542 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 2: with any curiosity on our Australian summers with the bloody 543 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 2: bushfires that we we seem to be having more and 544 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 2: more of that have been devastating in the last few 545 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 2: years over here. 546 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, they have been utterly devastating, and your first responders 547 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 3: I have a huge amount of admiration for the way 548 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 3: that they've tackled them, because those kind of incidents are relentless. 549 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 3: They're not the kind of incidence that you go to 550 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 3: and a couple of hours later you're back at the 551 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 3: station and its job and not you know, it's all finished. 552 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 3: Is day after day, week after week with those kind 553 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 3: of incidents, and they are exhausting. So your first responders, 554 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 3: I have to say, I think are exemplary in the 555 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 3: way that they have They've dealt with that and shown 556 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 3: incredible resilience and courage in the face of doing so, 557 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 3: as have been your communities actually who I've seen a 558 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 3: huge amount of resilience from having gone through those incidents 559 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 3: and they are utterly devastating. And one of the things 560 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 3: that we are thinking about more and more now as 561 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 3: fire services is the impact of climate change on weather 562 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 3: related incidents. You know, we've been having some awful wildfires 563 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 3: here in the UK, not like not to the extent 564 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,479 Speaker 3: that you do in Australia, because our demography is very different, 565 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 3: you know, we don't have the same kind of forested 566 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 3: areas that you do there and the expanse that you 567 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 3: do there, but they have been devastating for the wildlife 568 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 3: that we do have here, and they're happening more and 569 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 3: more regularly. Same with flooding. So actually thinking about what 570 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 3: we can do to prevent those happening in the first place, 571 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 3: to really get ahead of that is something that's super 572 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 3: important to us, and we're doing a lot of work 573 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 3: at the moment in my own fire department looking at 574 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 3: how we can kind of improve the work that we 575 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 3: do in rural communities to stop those kind of incidents 576 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 3: happening in the first place. 577 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. 578 00:30:54,280 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 2: Perfect, well, Sabrina, you're fascinating, you're Grey communicator. We appreciate 579 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 2: you having a chat with us on the You project. 580 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 2: Thank you, and I want you to come back when 581 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 2: your new books out so we can talk about that 582 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 2: and stell lots of books for you. 583 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 3: Is that all right, my pleasure? It would be great, 584 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 3: And it's been an absolute joy to speak to you today, 585 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 3: So thank you so much for having me. 586 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: Absolute pleasure, Melissa, do you like Sabrina. 587 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 4: Oh, of course, thank you so much for spending all 588 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 4: this time with us. What a privilege to listen to 589 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 4: your story. And yeah, I've just been sitting here and all, 590 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 4: so thank you very much. 591 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: Are you crushing hard just a little bit? 592 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 2: And I can tell. I can tell because you get 593 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 2: that goofy. I love her look on your face. Hey, Sabrina, 594 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 2: stay there. We'll say goodbye off air, but thank you 595 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,239 Speaker 2: so much, and thanks everyone. We appreciate you.