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Speaker 1: Welcome to healthy Ish. Thanks for joining us on the

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Speaker 1: daily podcast from Body and Soul. I am your host,

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Speaker 1: Felicity Halle. We're joined today by journalist and author Sarah

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Speaker 1: Cathel and she has a new book out. It is

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Speaker 1: called How to Break Up Well. She's here to share

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Speaker 1: her story of how she navigated separation. It's pretty epic

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Speaker 1: and singlehood to find her. Dare I call it happy

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Speaker 1: Single Self? She's a still going to talk about why

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Speaker 1: some people take self love wedding ceremonies. I know I

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Speaker 1: kind of miss this in the Sex and the City day,

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Speaker 1: but anyway, she's here to tell us all about it.

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Speaker 1: If you want more from Sarah, tune into our sister pod,

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Speaker 1: Extra healthy Ish, where she talks about well everything you

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Speaker 1: need to know about how to break Up Well. You

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Speaker 1: can catch that one where we get your podcasts. Sarah,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to healthy Ish. How are you.

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Speaker 2: I'm great, Thanks for listening. It's so great to be

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Speaker 2: on here. Thank you so much for the chair.

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Speaker 1: No nice for you to join us from New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: So you're you know, a special international guest.

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Speaker 2: I know, and I'm on a Wendy Wellington day here.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, Now I want to talk to you now.

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Speaker 1: There's a line in your book, your new book, I

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Speaker 1: wish I spent more time as a single woman rather

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Speaker 1: than filling an empty void dating men for the sake

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Speaker 1: of it. Oh, I think we could all or relate

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Speaker 1: to this, whether we're married or not or partnered up

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Speaker 1: unpacked this for us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I was going to say so. I was

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Speaker 2: very much used to being in a relationship. I mean

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Speaker 2: ever since I was about I think I was eleven

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Speaker 2: when I first left my first note in the milk

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Speaker 2: bottle for a milk boy, you know, and poems and

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Speaker 2: things like that. I was an absolute romantic. I was

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Speaker 2: either in a relationship or had a boyfriend or had

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Speaker 2: a crush. And I grew up in a family where

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Speaker 2: a big Catholic family, and everyone got married and everyone

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Speaker 2: was partner that so for me at the age of

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Speaker 2: two months before my fortieth birthday, I can't imagine. I

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Speaker 2: think I'd had a few weeks in my life without

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Speaker 2: a partner or boyfriend. So it was a huge shock

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Speaker 2: for me to suddenly find myself as a single person,

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Speaker 2: a single woman, single mother. And what I did, I went, oh,

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Speaker 2: how am I going to fill? You know? Once I

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Speaker 2: could actually get myself out of bed, et cetera. I

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Speaker 2: thought I'd start dating again, try to fill the void

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Speaker 2: and fill that hole that had been left.

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Speaker 1: And what I.

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Speaker 2: Found myself doing was I dated the wrong kind of people.

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Speaker 2: There's that concept of rebound. So my ex was a

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Speaker 2: successful businessman. Now my first lover was he lived in

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Speaker 2: a van and he spent most of his time trying

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Speaker 2: to find the latest surf break. He was an absolute

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Speaker 2: contrast to the man I've been with, So there was that.

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Speaker 2: I read the concept of finding someone who is absolute

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Speaker 2: opposite to your ex is quite natural, but that's what

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Speaker 2: happened for me. And the other one was I wasn't

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Speaker 2: really emotionally ready. I was like talk in my book

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Speaker 2: about sad dads, but I was a bit of a

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Speaker 2: sad mum, so I wasn't emotionally ready. I thought I

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Speaker 2: was potentially ready to repartner, but I wasn't, and I

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Speaker 2: often just chose the wrong I was spent too much

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Speaker 2: time with sad dads or men that weren't sort of

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Speaker 2: worthy of me. And actually a lot of that came

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Speaker 2: down to my self esteem. I had very low self esteem,

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Speaker 2: and just to get some sort of attention I was happy,

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Speaker 2: you know, I filled that's remain I went fild avoid

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Speaker 2: and I look back, and now that I've written this

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Speaker 2: spot fifteen years later, I realized in hindsight how much

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Speaker 2: most of my nourishing experiences, the things that really nurtured

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Speaker 2: me were the times I either spent on my own

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Speaker 2: as a single person single woman, spent time with my kids,

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Speaker 2: or spent time with girlfriends and doing you know, making

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Speaker 2: new friends and so on. It wasn't the dating, and

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Speaker 2: it wasn't actually until eight years ago, when I was

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Speaker 2: on an absolute man band, I said, enough's enough, you know,

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Speaker 2: I just need to spend some time on my own.

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Speaker 2: And six months later I met my mister chapter two,

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Speaker 2: my amazing second life partner was I was. I just

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Speaker 2: said to the universe, I want some time on my own,

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Speaker 2: and I loved myself enough as a complete person, and

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Speaker 2: that's when I met him.

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Speaker 1: The man ban. I like that. There are a lot

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Speaker 1: of women, you know, in whatever age bracket you fall into,

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Speaker 1: twenty thirties, forties, fifties and sixties who are single, and

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Speaker 1: they might be single parents or single singles. And do

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Speaker 1: you know there's a stigma still exists for women and

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Speaker 1: what about single moms.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, for some there's this kind of still this

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Speaker 2: cultural expectation that will fall in love and get married

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Speaker 2: that still remains strong. I in Australia, sixteen percent of

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Speaker 2: Australian women live in single women households. That's huge.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot, isn't it. I

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Speaker 2: think for younger women it's really hard to de clear

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Speaker 2: your happiest, happy single as you kind of lead up

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Speaker 2: to that age of settling down. And that's a biological

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Speaker 2: thing in terms of the average age of women will

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Speaker 2: settle in Australia is an age of thirty one. And

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Speaker 2: basically what happens is so leading up to that you

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Speaker 2: feel this pressure and I think that's hard. But in

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Speaker 2: some groups, the older women, the women in midlife have

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Speaker 2: been through a divorce or breakup, they are actually find

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Speaker 2: you know, they off and say, no, I don't want

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Speaker 2: to repartner. I've got everything I want. I'm happy on

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Speaker 2: my own. And one of the women I interviewed in

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Speaker 2: my book, who was at seventy, she said that she's

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Speaker 2: on dating apps and she said, actually, men at her

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Speaker 2: age we're looking for a nurse or a purse I

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Speaker 2: love and she said, no, no, I'm really you know,

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Speaker 2: I've got my life. Why would I.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps it depends on which kind of demographic you fall

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Speaker 1: into as to whether there is a bit of a

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Speaker 1: stigma talked about us about this idea of self love

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Speaker 1: wedding ceremonies. These sound very empowering, I know.

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Speaker 2: Well, Kerrie Bradshaw, I don't know if you remember one

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Speaker 2: of the issues where one of the episodes she married

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Speaker 2: herself and sits in the city. Yeah, that was one,

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Speaker 2: so that was quite fun. But they I think they're

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Speaker 2: just a bit of fun. But some people do do them.

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Speaker 2: You know. It's like, I guess it's the clearing consciously

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Speaker 2: choosing single. I'm saying I'll marry myself, learning to be alone.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I do know that one this woman in

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Speaker 2: Wellington and New Zealand, she's actually run them where all

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Speaker 2: these women turn up and they attend these self love

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Speaker 2: wedding ceremonies and they have a celebrant up the front

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Speaker 2: and it's all a bit of fun. There's nothing legally

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Speaker 2: binding about it, but it's just saying I consciously choose

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Speaker 2: to love myself, marry myself, pledge your declaration to yourself

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Speaker 2: and yeah, so it's bit.

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Speaker 1: Of fun at this time of year. I mean if

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Speaker 1: you are newly single, if you've been single for a

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Speaker 1: long time, it can often be quite challenging, especially as

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Speaker 1: you know, there's lots of festive parties and you get

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Speaker 1: together with family and there might be that yeah, old

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Speaker 1: uncle who's like, have you not found someone yet? I mean,

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Speaker 1: how what did do you learn? And give us some

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Speaker 1: advice as to how we can navigate this time without

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Speaker 1: the shame, the guilt and when you actually feel okay

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Speaker 1: being single?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think that you're right. You're sitting around

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Speaker 2: the Christmas table and as you say, uncle whatever, saying

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Speaker 2: you know, oh, have you met anyone nice and anyone

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Speaker 2: special in your life? I think the trick is saying

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Speaker 2: I actually want to be single, and say it, I'm

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Speaker 2: happy being single. I've got all these other great things

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Speaker 2: in my life, my career, my friends and my travel

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Speaker 2: or whatever, you know, the other wonderful things you have,

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Speaker 2: and you want to celebrate the amazing people that are

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Speaker 2: in your life and rather than this imaginary person who

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Speaker 2: doesn't exist that your family all wants you to. So

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Speaker 2: I think just saying that and that you know, maybe

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Speaker 2: if you are hoping that at some stage you might

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Speaker 2: meet someone, you could say you're not actively locking, but

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Speaker 2: if the right person came into your life, you know

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Speaker 2: you'll be open to it.

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Speaker 1: And is that how you I mean you talked about

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Speaker 1: finding your number two? Is that how you call him?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what I mean? How did some advice give us

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Speaker 1: some advice? And how you it's not the words, not coat,

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Speaker 1: but how you kind of got to the place where

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Speaker 1: you were happy single before he showed up.

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Speaker 2: Well, I discovered, as I said, all these other my

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Speaker 2: writing was going well, and I was loving my running.

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Speaker 2: So I love running. I'd run a marathon, I was

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Speaker 2: going to hot yoga. I was just filling my life

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Speaker 2: with all these wonderful other activities. And so that's that's

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Speaker 2: what that was for me. That it was actually thinking.

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Speaker 2: I remember going to this wonderful life coach actually, and

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Speaker 2: she drew a big like an orange, and she carved

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Speaker 2: it into segments and she said, right, this is a

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Speaker 2: segment that used to be you and your husband. What

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Speaker 2: do you want to fill that with? You know, think

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Speaker 2: of it as exciting what you can do with that time.

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Speaker 2: And I think going back to single parents single mums

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Speaker 2: I had, I co parented, which was a benefit because

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Speaker 2: then I had this time on my own away from

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Speaker 2: the kids. So I started to fill that time with

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Speaker 2: you know, other things rather than did it did you know,

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Speaker 2: dead end dates and just really appreciating because it was

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Speaker 2: full on. I had three young children, I was working.

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Speaker 2: I just didn't actually have a lot of time to

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Speaker 2: myself apart from when they went to their dad. So

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Speaker 2: it's like, well, actually I reframed it. I thought, how

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Speaker 2: am I going to reframe my time away from them

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Speaker 2: so that I use it to sort of on my

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Speaker 2: own personal growth rather than because I've been rejected by

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Speaker 2: my husband as well. You know, I found that dating

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Speaker 2: was often quite sap sapped my energy. That I found

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Speaker 2: that if I was ghosted by someone or I was

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Speaker 2: you know, I got very sort of up and ups

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Speaker 2: and downs of it. So actually, just what can you

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Speaker 2: it's almost to I don't want to use the word control,

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Speaker 2: but I will, But what can you take charge of

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Speaker 2: in your life and build yourself up? And I think

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Speaker 2: that's when you're actually quite attractive to someone person as well.

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Speaker 1: Great advice, Sarah. Thanks thank you for coming on healthy.

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Speaker 2: Ish, Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Well if you are a single person, If you need

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Speaker 1: some inspo an empowerment, perhaps Sarah's new book is called

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Speaker 1: How to Break Up Well. If you did enjoy this chat,

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Speaker 1: jump on tell Us review this episode, subscribe to this podcast.

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Speaker 1: You can DM me at Felicity Harley. Make sure you

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Speaker 1: are following Body and Soul on social media as well.

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Speaker 1: Bodyansoul dot com dot are you is the place to

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Speaker 1: go for any other info. Check out our print edition

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Speaker 1: which is out in your local Sunday paper. And until

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Speaker 1: next time you listen, stay healthy ish