1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,680 Speaker 1: This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gatigel 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:09,479 Speaker 1: people of the Uran Nation. Hello and welcome to the 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: Real Story with Joe Hildebrand. America is burning, Tasmania is 4 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: in the grip of a constitutional crisis, Labor is at 5 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 1: war with itself over illegal tobacco and at war with 6 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: New Zealand over vaping. Plus The Project and Q and 7 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: A are both dead. How will civilization ever survive? Over 8 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: to America? First, and there are two things on fire 9 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: in the USA. One is the Twitter flame war between 10 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: Elon Musk and Donald Trump, and the other is the 11 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: city of Los Angeles. Yes, there are riots in la again. 12 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: It seems to happen every time there's any kind of 13 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: dispute or unrest, and this time Australia has been dragged 14 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: into it because of the nine reporter Lauren to Marci 15 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: who has shot it seems deliberately with a rubber bullet 16 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: while covering the riots. But let's just pan back from 17 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: all of that and find out exactly what is going 18 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: on here and why are these right slash protests happening 19 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: and what are they even trying to achieve. Well, the 20 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,199 Speaker 1: reason why people taking to the streets is because Donald 21 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: Trump's Border Control officers ICE as they're known, removing illegal 22 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: immigrants from obviously states that share a border with Mexico 23 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: mostly and that of course includes California, and is taking 24 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 1: them back over the border to be repatriated from whence 25 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: they came. Now, whatever your position on this, let's park 26 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: that to one side. This is basically something that Donald 27 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: Trump promised that he was going to do and now 28 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: he is doing it. And they're basically claims that hard 29 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: left groups, groups that have links directly or indirectly with 30 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: the Democrats in California basically trying to impede these Immigration 31 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: and Customs Enforcement ICE officers from seizing people from knocking 32 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: on doors and taking them back, putting an attention and 33 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: taking them back over the border. Now what does this 34 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 1: actually accomplish, Well, firstly, there is nothing. And again these 35 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: people see themselves as left wing or progressive, there is 36 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: absolutely nothing that is left wing or progressive about encouraging 37 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: people to get into bed with organized crimes and people 38 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: smuggling cartels and make incredibly dangerous, often deadly journeys, be 39 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: it across the seas, if you're coming to Australia or 40 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,679 Speaker 1: up through Mexico, and Central America. If you're going into 41 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: the southern border on the US, creating an incentive for 42 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 1: people to do that is not progressive. That is essentially 43 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,959 Speaker 1: incentivizing them to risk their lives. We saw what happened 44 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: here in Australia, and of course the same thing happens 45 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: on the southern border in the US. The other thing is, 46 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: of course, there is absolutely nothing pro worker, pro working 47 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: class about bringing in illegal immigrants who work for incredibly 48 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: cheap cash in hand jobs and undercut the workers who 49 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: are all ready in the US and are often getting 50 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: extremely low paid jobs. At the best of times, US 51 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: wages are notoriously low compared to Australia and other countries 52 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: in the West. And then you have illegal immigrants who 53 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: are coming in doing cash work on the brown black 54 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: market and undercutting the rights and the wages of local 55 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: blue collar workers. And of course it is the medial work, 56 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: blue collar manual workers who are most affected by this. 57 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: It's not the office workers, it's not the middle class. 58 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: It's not the people who hire these guys as their 59 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: housekeepers or to clean their pools. It is working class Americans. 60 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: And that is why working class Americans in their droves 61 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: turned to Donald Trump in the first place. And that 62 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 1: is why the Democrats have completely lost sight of the 63 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: working man, literally lost sight of the working man. And 64 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: this is something that very nearly happened in Australia, and 65 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: a lot of people I know in the Labor Party 66 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: were very worried about that the Labor was going to 67 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: be taken out of the Labor Party, a party that 68 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: was formed for the protection and advancement of the rights 69 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: of workers, blue collar workers, started with shearers strike and 70 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: the Tree of Knowledge and Queensland or the Wharf is 71 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: in Balmain and Sydney. The two branches of the party 72 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: are still fighting over who actually invented it. But point being, 73 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: these are meant to be parties. Labor is obviously the 74 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 1: party of the workmen. The Democrats are meant to be 75 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 1: the party of the worker, of the blue collar working 76 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: class America, and they do not know who that is anymore. 77 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 1: They have completely lost that demographic. They were voting for 78 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: Barack Obama in droves. And Barack Obama, by the way, 79 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: was very tough on illegal immigration. He was deporting people 80 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: by the thousands, the one hundreds of thousands. He had 81 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 1: no compunction about it. Whatsoever, and they voted for him. 82 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: Those working class people in those American swing states in 83 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 1: the Midwest, they voted for Barack Obama and then they 84 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: voted for Donald Trump. So much for them being racists, huh, 85 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: they helped elect the first black president of the United States. 86 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: They weren't voting because they're racers. They're voting for because 87 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 1: they were protecting their rights as workers, because they saw 88 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: the Democrats as abandoning them in favor of personality politics, 89 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: identity politics, all these sort of causes like climate change 90 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: that they thought was driving their industries into the ground 91 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 1: and so costing them their jobs. And again these bespoke 92 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 1: campus causes that evolve around gender or race or sexuality, 93 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 1: all these things that are left in America's obsessed with 94 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: instead of largely white working classmen, and they all went 95 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 1: to Donald Trump. Now we know that happened, and what 96 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: is the Democratic Party in the US trying to do 97 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 1: about that? Well, they have not actually got to talk 98 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: to any of these people. They're not among these people. 99 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: They're not going down to Pittsburgh saying, hey, guys, what happened? 100 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: Where do we lose you? You know, they're not going 101 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: to Michigan Minnesota, Detroit. No, they go to a fancy 102 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: hotel in New York where a whole bunch of millionaire 103 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: Democratic donors and fundraisers and strategists sat around, and they 104 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: came up with a kid, You not a twenty million 105 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 1: dollar strategy, A twenty million dollar I believe that. I 106 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: believe they call it a prospectus. Again, I should you're 107 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: not a prospectus for how to identify and find and 108 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: talk to the working class. And that is literally what 109 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: it is. It's called speaking to American men, speaking with 110 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: American men. Sorry, not too with because they're sharing. And 111 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: this is this is how it's described in their own words. 112 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: Quote a strategic plan quote again, which will study the syntax, language, 113 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: and content that gains attention and virality in these spaces. 114 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: Can you imagine talking to any normal person, let alone 115 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: a minor or a factory worker, I did a coal 116 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: miner from Rginia. Imagine saying, ah, yes, we're going to 117 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: study the syntax, language and content that gains attention and 118 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: virality in these spaces. These people, like all normal people, 119 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: do not use words like spaces. But these guys, these 120 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: millionaire donors, these rich, fancy strategists, sitting in their New 121 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: York hotel saying, where are all these people who didn't 122 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: vote for us? These strange You know, they are studying 123 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: them like zoo animals. It's like they want to trank one, 124 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: drag them back to the lab so they can dissect 125 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: it and see what makes it tick. This is how 126 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: far the Democrats are removed from the working class, from 127 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: ordinary Americans. And that was what a lot of people 128 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: feared labor was in danger of doing. Here. Thankfully we 129 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: have numpties like the Greens and the Teals who can 130 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: soak up all those kind of upper middle class socialists 131 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: sort of wanky votes and leave labor to concentrate on 132 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: the bread and butter. And that is how labor has 133 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: been so successful at the last two elections, by just 134 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: going after basic square middle economic issues, cost of living issues, 135 00:08:57,720 --> 00:08:59,599 Speaker 1: none of the wok stuff. The voice whoops, that was 136 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: a mistake, Never speak of it again. But the Democrats 137 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: still haven't learned that lesson. So anyway, cut to the 138 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: rights and the protests that are all taking place in 139 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: la and which are at best encouraged by and supported 140 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: by huge sections of the far left and the elite left, 141 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: and at worst possibly even directly supported and funded or 142 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: resourced by them. Now, what exactly are they trying to 143 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: achieve it? Well, guess what. Immigration. Donald Trump is struggling 144 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: on a whole bunch of levels. He is in all sorts. 145 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: He's got the embarrassing fight with Elon Musk, He's got 146 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: no idea what he's doing on Russia. It doesn't seem 147 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: to be particularly clear where he stands on Israel, as 148 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: he foro or against them. He's launched a trade war 149 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: with the rest of the world. It's all pissed off 150 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: about it. But the one thing that people support him on, 151 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: the one issue. There's only one issue that poll's show 152 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: the majority of Americans support Donald Trump on, and that 153 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: is tackling illegal immigration. And it's on this issue where 154 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: Trump is strongest and where he has the most support 155 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: among Americans that the Left is currently deciding to literally 156 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: physically go to war with him on. And then they 157 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: blame Donald Trump for cracking down on the protesters because 158 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: he's called in the National Guard. So this brings us 159 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:29,959 Speaker 1: to our reporter Lauren Tomoci, who has been and again, 160 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: if I don't know if you've seen the footage of 161 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: what has happened. It is really creepy. It looks like 162 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: an officer actually turns, takes aim directly at her, lines 163 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: up and fires a rubber bullet at her. And those things, 164 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 1: Yeah they're rubber, but they sting, they hurt, and this 165 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: is obviously shocked Australia. It's shocked the PM who's raised 166 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: concerns with the White House about it. But that wasn't 167 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: the National Guard. They weren't Donald Trump's people who fired 168 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: at our journalist. That wasn't the big bad federal bogeyman 169 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 1: who were sent in to beautiful progressive Democrat led California. 170 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:15,839 Speaker 1: That was the LAPD. That was the LAPD, which are 171 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: directly controlled, directly accountable to and run by the Mayor 172 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 1: and Council of La County, Democratic La County. He's that 173 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: guy who shot the Australian journalist with a rubber bullet, 174 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: seemingly intentionally. It's very difficult to find any other possible 175 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,959 Speaker 1: explanation just from looking at the footage as to why 176 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: he did that. But this guy is a one hundred 177 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: percent card carrying, wholly owned subsidiary of the Democratic Party. 178 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: He doesn't work for Donald Trump in any way, shape 179 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: or form. And yet people are still desperate to somehow 180 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: blow on the big bad bogey man at the same 181 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: time as they are going to war with him on 182 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: the one issue that most Americans actually think he's doing 183 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: a good job at, on the one issue that most 184 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: Americans actually support him for. And that shows you just 185 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: how out of touch the Democrats and the American left 186 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: are with ordinary Americans. So what do they actually want 187 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: to achieve by any of this? Do they want to 188 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,439 Speaker 1: actually change Donald Trump's mind? Do they want to actually, 189 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 1: you know, stop the deportation process or change the actual 190 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: federal policy? Will know because they can't. And the fact 191 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: is that the rioting and unrest that took place in 192 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: America during the Black Lives Matter riots is a large 193 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: part of the reason why Donald Trump got re elected. 194 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: Donald Trump is president in large part because he ran 195 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: on a campaign in opposition to these idiotic movements like 196 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: defunding the police that everyone was saying, we're going to 197 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: do it, And of course the Republicans are running at saying, 198 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: you know, you're going to call nine to one one, 199 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: no one's going to answer the phone as there's someone 200 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: coming into your house, there's someone attacking you. This was 201 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: a key Republican and Trumpian platform, and now they are 202 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: just giving him another one because they don't want results, 203 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:26,559 Speaker 1: They don't want to change the policy. They just want 204 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: to protest. They just want to show how angry they are, 205 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: how noble and pure they are, how much they care, 206 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: how indignant they are. And this is why you see 207 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: the same kind of faces, the same kind of protesters, 208 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: the same kind of writers, writing and setting fire to 209 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:50,839 Speaker 1: buildings over legal immigration deportations, black lives matter, climate change, Palestine, 210 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: you name it, change the cause. It's the same old faces, 211 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: the same old tactics, and the same old results, which 212 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: is absolutely nothing that they claim to be aiming for 213 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: and everything that plays into the hands of the right. 214 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: And you know what, they don't care about that either, 215 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: because that just gives them more to protest and write about. 216 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: And now to some death and destruction closer to home. 217 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: Both the Project and Q and A have been axed, killed, 218 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: put out to pasture, taken out the back, and shot 219 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: or within about twenty four hours of each other. This week. 220 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: It was announced that first the Project was going to 221 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: go I was going to finish up at the end 222 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: of this month, and now Q and A maral Gonski 223 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: and obviously I have pretty close ties to both of 224 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: these shows, although not anymore, which is probably why they 225 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: got canned, you know, back in the day. But I'm 226 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: very dear friends with Sarah Harris, who's of course a 227 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: friend of this podcast, and she is the co host 228 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: of the project. And it's probably his biggest star. Sorry 229 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: by lead Well, Le's the sabrebral guy, you know, Sarah 230 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: adds the start. And of course Q and A. I 231 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: was a fairly regular guest on years ago when it 232 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: was actually kind of watchable, and I've got a few 233 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: insights into why, in particular, Q and A has gone 234 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: the way of the Dough Dough. And people keep talking 235 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: about the balance of Q and A and the fact 236 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: that it's so biased and the balance is all wrong, 237 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: and they're absolutely right, except that they're both absolutely wrong 238 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: because conservatives think that Q and A is overwhelmingly biased 239 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: towards the left and stacked with left leaning panelists. But 240 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: there's also a really crazy, militant bunch of lefties who 241 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: think that Q and A, and you can see them 242 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: all on Twitter. They get all hepped up about Q 243 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: and A, and they get super hyped up about insiders. 244 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: They think that the ABC and these news shows or 245 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: horrendously biased too bump bohem the right. Yes, they think 246 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: the ABC is overrun by liberal sympathizers, liberal stooges, and 247 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: they bang on and on and on about it on 248 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: social media every time these shows come on. It is 249 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: actually incredibly painful, nauseating, but interesting to see just how 250 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: fully cooked these guys are. Any deviation from the communist 251 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: manifesto and these guys reckon it's all you know, It's 252 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: all you know. Kim Williams, Evil Rupert Murdoch is taking 253 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: over the ABC or evil Channel nine CEO taking the ABC, 254 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: whatever it may be. These guys are totally totally cooked. 255 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: So at the same time, you've got the right saying 256 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: this is totally unwatchable, Mainstream Australia just turning off in 257 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: droves because it's just a progressive, inner city left wing 258 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: circle jerk in their minds. You've got all these people 259 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: on the left saying, no, you're still to right wing, 260 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: still to And these are the core kind of friends 261 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 1: of the ABC audience. These are the guys who chain 262 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: themselves to trees in Ultimo and South Bank to stop 263 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 1: anything from happening to the ABC, and they're attacking it 264 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: so vociferously from the left that that's what a lot 265 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: of these guys who are probably sort of part of 266 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: that similar demographic anyway, who are actually putting together the shows, 267 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,439 Speaker 1: that's what they're listening to. So they think they're putting 268 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: together something that is it is either balanced or you know, 269 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: like they'll have someone like Matt Kean on who they think, well, 270 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 1: he's an ex liberal minister, he's obviously the right. And 271 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: of course people on the right hate Matt Kean in 272 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,199 Speaker 1: the same way they hate Malcolm Turnbull. I quite like 273 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 1: Matt Teine. I think the nice guy. But anyway, point being, 274 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: conservatives do not consider him a conservative. But to someone 275 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 1: like an ABC producer, they would think, oh, yeah, see 276 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: we've put him in. And I'll give you an example 277 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: of this that this is where I knew that perhaps 278 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: the show might be in a bit of trouble. Where 279 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 1: I again maybe half a dozen times or something back 280 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: in the old days, and one time they call me 281 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: in because someone had dropped out, so they meant to 282 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 1: be getting an ultra orthodox rabbi from New York and 283 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: something had gone wrong with the travel arrangements or whatever, 284 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: and he couldn't make it, and they said, would you 285 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: step in in his place? I said, absolutely fantastic, As 286 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: Golverdale said, never give up a chance to have sex 287 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: or appear on television. But when I got there, I said, 288 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: and I had to say for now, I said, you 289 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:35,159 Speaker 1: do realize you've just replaced a conservative Jew with a 290 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: labor voting Catholic. Just me being there had fully skewed 291 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: what they thought was the balance. But they would have 292 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,360 Speaker 1: thought that because I'm not a green left weekly subscriber, 293 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: that I was also conservative, And of course everyone thinks 294 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: I'm Jewish anyway, and I never correct them because I 295 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: need the jokes. So that's just a little sort of 296 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: first person example of how, with all the goodwill and 297 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: these guys are good people and they're going to be 298 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: unemployed soon and looking for work, I'm not having a 299 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,679 Speaker 1: crack at them at all. But what they think is 300 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: balanced is what people on both the left and the 301 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: right think is horribly biased. And that is what happens 302 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: when you end up sort of catering to or listening 303 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: to these nutters on the extreme. You hold the middle 304 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: way and you will survive. Just look at me unlike 305 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: Q and A. So one of the big issues in 306 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: Australia that is constantly kind of bubbling below the surface 307 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 1: and sometimes explodes into violence in our major cities and 308 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 1: indeed explosive public debate is the issue of illegal tobacco, 309 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: which is the subject of major wars between different organized 310 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: crime syndicates that import it and sell it, and vape 311 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: regulation or legislation, and so whether or not vaping, which 312 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: by all reports more than a million Australians do at 313 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: least sometimes whether that should be illegal or as illegal 314 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 1: as it is, and these sort of double helix of 315 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: this issue is just presenting a constant headache for the government. 316 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: It's a constant headache for police who are trying to 317 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 1: intercept these illegal shipments and regulate the sale of these 318 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: products right across the country. And it's now kind of 319 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: hit this new weird sort of nexus where you've got 320 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: state health ministers in New South Wales and Victoria possibly 321 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 1: other state health ministers as well. They're saying, no, we 322 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: need to freeze tobacco excise. It's becoming too much and 323 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 1: it's creating too much of an incentive, i suppose for 324 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: black marketeers to because the more expensive the legal product is, 325 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,199 Speaker 1: the more attractive the illegal product is. You've got the 326 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: federal government saying no, no, no, at least thus far. 327 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: Maybe they're going to change that down the line. Then 328 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 1: you've got the New Zealand Health Minister who's chimed in. 329 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: I did not expect the New Zealand Health Minister to 330 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: intrude on this podcast, but she has said, now Australia 331 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: is doing vaping all wrong. You should do what New 332 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: Zealand does, and other countries around the world as well, 333 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: where you let retailers sell it, you regulate it and 334 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: so it's targeting X smokers. It's not allowed to target kids, 335 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: but you'll let normal retailers sell it. You don't have 336 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: to have a prescription or go to a chemist or 337 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: pharmacy or anything like that, and that's the way you 338 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: help people to quit. Now these remarks, she made some 339 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: very measured remarks sort of publicly, but James Willis from 340 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: The Daily Telegraph actually found a podcast because people will 341 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: say anything on podcasts where she really let Rippons aid, 342 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 1: Australia is really stupid for the way it's going, and 343 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: the numbers seem to back it up. Because New Zealand's 344 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: smoking rate has almost halved over the last few years 345 00:21:55,320 --> 00:22:00,959 Speaker 1: to about from about fourteen to about seven or eight percent. Well, 346 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: Australia's has only gone down from I think about things 347 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: maybe about eleven twelve thirteen to about eight percent, so 348 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: not as much of a drop. So we've got organized 349 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: crime profiteering and profiting off illegal tobacco. We've got vapes 350 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 1: that are illegal but should be legal according to New 351 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: Zealand and other jurisdictions. And we've got on the line 352 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,919 Speaker 1: Theo Fakari, who is the CEO of the Australian Association 353 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 1: of Convenience Stores, who for whom this is just an 354 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: absolute nightmare to navigate, and he has some pretty strong 355 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: thoughts on what needs to be done and what's really 356 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: going on on the ground. So THEO, welcome to the 357 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: real story. How are you. 358 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 2: I'm well, Thank you Joe yourself. 359 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, look, I'm very well mate. Have I sufficiently captured 360 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 1: the omni shambles that is this kind of weird legal, 361 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: illegal black market, brown market, above board and under the 362 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,920 Speaker 1: counter indus that is really sweeping the nation. I mean, 363 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: you can't walk down the street without three new tobacconists 364 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: just popping up in front of your eyes verstically. 365 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, look, you've captured it really well. And I think 366 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 2: you know, Australia at one point used to be a 367 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 2: global leader in terms of tobacco control and unfortunately, through 368 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:27,719 Speaker 2: successive governments, what we have now is this really weird situation. 369 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 2: So not only do we have the most expensive cigarettes 370 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 2: in the world by some distance, you also have what 371 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 2: many developed markets all around the world have proven, both 372 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 2: scientifically and through actual results, the most effective tobacco harm 373 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 2: reduction device, which is VA vaping products. But Australia just 374 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 2: wants to effectively prohibit one to the purchase only via 375 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 2: a pharmacy if it's low nicotine and with a prescription 376 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 2: from a doctor if it's higher than twenty milligrams. You know, 377 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 2: the facts are pretty clear, Joe. If I look at 378 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 2: the tobacco piece today, in thousands and it's literally thousands 379 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 2: of stores around the country, you can buy an illegal 380 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 2: packet of cigarettes for as cheap as ten dollars in 381 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 2: a twenty size, and that same pack legally can cost 382 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 2: anywhere between forty and fifty depending on where you're buying 383 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 2: it from. So you know we're talking anywhere between four 384 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 2: and five times the price, because you know, eighty four 385 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 2: percent of the excise of the price of tobacco is 386 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 2: going to relevant taxes XCISE, GST, etc. And you know, 387 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 2: it's no surprise that we've got when you combine the 388 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 2: two together, you actually these crime gangs. They're actually fighting 389 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 2: over about eight billion dollar a year when you combine 390 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 2: the illegal tobacco market and the illegal vaping market. So 391 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 2: it's serious. Serious Biki's here, and we're in this situation 392 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 2: because no one stood up and said, actually, what do 393 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 2: we need to do differently, because our smoking rates for 394 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 2: adults has basically flatlined. We've got massive amounts, actually record 395 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 2: amounts in every state and territory apart from New South 396 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 2: Wales of nicotine in the waste water analysis. That's the 397 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 2: government's own data. And you've got legal retailers saying, hey, guys, 398 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 2: our sales are plummeting, and you know what, it's not 399 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 2: a problem if people stop smoking, good on it. But 400 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 2: that's not the case. So you know, as you're rightly 401 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 2: pointed out, there isn't a community in the country that 402 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 2: the average person can just walk around the street and 403 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 2: not see a new quebaccan is popping up literally every week, 404 00:25:55,240 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 2: and it's about time that actually the federal government stood 405 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 2: up and listened to the people on the ground. So 406 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 2: really proud of Chris Means. He came out, is the 407 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 2: most senior politician outside of Canberra in the country, looks 408 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 2: after the biggest state in the country. He's not been 409 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 2: given any support by the federal government. There's a bit 410 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 2: of support, but not really. He has to fix the 411 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 2: mess himself because you've got all of these illegal stores 412 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 2: and guess. 413 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: What, and state cops that have to enforce these laws. 414 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 2: Correct, correct, And currently it's with health inspectors and you know, 415 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 2: with respect, these are the people that go out and 416 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,959 Speaker 2: check that someone has the right temperature in their fridge 417 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 2: or has the right sign up to meet the relevant 418 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 2: guidelines for whatever the product might be. And now you've 419 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 2: got Chris Means saying this is that big a problem. 420 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 2: I'm going to have to look at diverting police from 421 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 2: real problems. 422 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: Because the health inspectors from memory. Recently, I think the 423 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: number has been doubled, but it's been doubled from an 424 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 1: absolutely minuscule We're talking like a handful of of people. 425 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, it went from in New South Wales and went 426 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 2: from seven to fourteen and I believe it as talk 427 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 2: it might go to twenty eight. But you know, when 428 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 2: you put it into perspective, Joe, So South Australia are 429 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:15,439 Speaker 2: pretty small state. South Australia have taken a really strong 430 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 2: position legislatively and with their fines so really strong. But 431 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 2: most importantly they're actually starting to use their new powers. 432 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 2: But in South Australia they actually have thirty eight authorized officers, 433 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 2: dedicated trained task force, not police, not health but actually 434 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 2: dedicated people that know how to deal with this organized 435 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 2: crime piece. So for a little state, thirty eight inspectors, 436 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 2: they've committed nearly twenty million dollars in enforcement. But you've 437 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 2: got these big states who are left to sort of 438 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 2: address what's going on. And at the same time it's 439 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 2: really weird. You know, you've got the federal Treasurer who, 440 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 2: by the way, his excise on tobacco over the last 441 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 2: four years has declined from sixteen point three billion dollars 442 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 2: down to about seven billion dollars this year. And that's 443 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 2: all because people are leaving the legal to the illegal market. 444 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 2: And what's their answer put the price up more. 445 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: I was going to say so, just to recap the impact. Now, 446 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: I have the greatest amount of sympathy for what the 447 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: federal government's trying to do. Obviously, no one wants people 448 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 1: to smoke cigarettes, and no one who is not already 449 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: addicted to cigarettes should be vaping. I'm going to quickly 450 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: put my cards on the table. I was a smoker 451 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,679 Speaker 1: for twenty twenty five years and I quit thanks to vaping, 452 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 1: and that was the only way I was able to 453 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: do it. And I still vape. I've got my prescription 454 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: or whatever, and I get it from the pharmacy thing 455 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: online or whatever. But if you look at the impact 456 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: of what has happened, you've seen a decline in smoking 457 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: rates that is actually less than what they've seen in 458 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: New Zealand, where they've got a much more liberal approach 459 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: to vaping. You've seen a decline in the actual revenue 460 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: coming to government because people simply aren't paying fifty bucks 461 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: for a pack of cigarettes, and they're just buying the 462 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: illegal stuff anyway, so the government gets nothing, and you 463 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: are seeing an absolute proliferation of both these products, as 464 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: is self evident from the ship. I mean, if the 465 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: number of legal smokers or just smokers generally is going down. 466 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: Why are we seeing the number of tobacconists people selling 467 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: this stuff explode exponentially? If you can't get these vapes 468 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: from anywhere but a pharmacist, why are you seeing you know, 469 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: tobacconists convenience? I mean that they found. I mean they're 470 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: springing up literally all over the place. Anyone who lives 471 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: in a town or a suburb of a city will 472 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: have seen this with their own eyes. And they're even available. 473 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: I mean someone found a shop just around the corner 474 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: from New South Wales Parliament that was selling them so 475 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: self evidently they're just not working. It is absolutely clear 476 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: that this current framework is having the opposite effect to 477 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: what is intended. Is the answer just to crack down 478 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: even harder and enforce all the laws and bust all 479 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: these things wide open. Is that like they're doing in 480 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: South Australia. Is that a sustainable counter narrative? 481 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 2: The short answer is no, you can't enforce your way 482 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 2: out of this. And this isn't just me. This is 483 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 2: leading criminologists, people that study how do organized crime work, 484 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 2: how to black market's work, They're saying, you can't enforce 485 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 2: your way out of this Australia has been trying to 486 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 2: enforce their way out of illicit drugs for a long 487 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 2: long time, and the reality is they only getting about 488 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 2: a quarter of all illegal drugs coming into the country. 489 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 2: So you know, the pure definition of insanity Joe is 490 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 2: doing the same thing over and over and expecting a 491 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,959 Speaker 2: different outcome, and that's exactly where we're at. So you know, 492 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 2: currently the Australian government, in my view, is a world 493 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,719 Speaker 2: leader in how not to set tobacco control policy and 494 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 2: how not to set tobacco harm reduction because they're two 495 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 2: different things. Okay, tobacco control, regulate, control what's in it, 496 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 2: control where it's sold, put messages on it, convince people 497 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 2: to stop, no problems. Their view on harm reduction is price. 498 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 2: And you know, the government continues to say there's nothing 499 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 2: globally that says putting the price down will stop an 500 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 2: illegal market. Well, guess what. Australia has the biggest illegal 501 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 2: tobacco and illegal vape market in the world, and Australia 502 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 2: has the most expensive cigarettes in the world. And Australia 503 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 2: is the only country in the world that has almost 504 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 2: banned via prescription vaping products. So the short answer is no, 505 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 2: And my view on this is pretty clear. You need 506 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 2: enforcement and you need, you know, governments to be doing 507 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 2: their thing. But at the moment we've got eight different 508 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 2: sets of rules. Every state and territory is doing their 509 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 2: own thing. So what we need, and you know, successive 510 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 2: governments have actually had inquiry after inquiry with recommendations that 511 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 2: they've ignored. But what we need is one uniform approach 512 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 2: run by the federal government that each of the states adopt. 513 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 2: And we also need the AFP to manage this enforcement 514 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 2: from the border to the shop front. We can't have 515 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 2: all these different people doing it, so you've got to 516 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 2: have that going on. Secondly, if you look at actually 517 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 2: the impact of the tobacco excise and its effect on 518 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 2: having people to quit up until about twenty eighteen or 519 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, it was actually working because the price differential 520 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 2: wasn't there. So our view is, I mean, at a minimum, 521 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 2: we think that federal government should freeze any future excises, 522 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 2: because there's another one coming in September of this year. 523 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 2: But to get control of this, we feel as though 524 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 2: it needs to be reduced to about the twenty eighteen 525 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 2: or nineteen level, which is about forty five percent below 526 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 2: where it's at today. So what that would do is 527 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 2: make a packet of twenty smokes about twenty five dollars 528 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 2: versus ten or fifteen. The gap isn't three four, five times. 529 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 2: The gap might be one and a half or two. 530 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 2: In parallel, you actually have to regulate vapes because you 531 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 2: can't ignore the fact that if I look at New Zealand, 532 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 2: which you've mentioned, and you know, full credit to the 533 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 2: New Zealand Health Minister for coming out, but you also 534 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 2: can look at Sweden. You can also look at the UK, 535 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 2: where where they've adopted vaping as the most successful harm 536 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 2: reduction product available, they've declined this adult smoking rates by 537 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 2: more than fifty percent. They've also got the lowest youth 538 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 2: smoking and vaping rates on record. You know, So there's 539 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 2: proven real world examples in Canada, in the UK, in 540 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 2: New Zealand, in Sweden, through many parts of Europe. The 541 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 2: straining government continues to just ignore it. 542 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: That's right. The crackdown on tobacco and cigarettes only makes 543 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: sense if you're at the same time making vaping more 544 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 1: available as an alternative. To crack down on both defies 545 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: the point. 546 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I think over the next sort of two years, 547 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 2: the illegal tobacco market will be bigger than the legal 548 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 2: tobacco market. So what that means is the government, I 549 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 2: mean they've put nearly a billion dollars into enforcement of 550 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 2: illegal tobacco and vapes already a billion dollars. They're going 551 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,919 Speaker 2: to get to the point where any excise revenue they 552 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 2: generate out of legal tobacco, they're going to be spending 553 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,839 Speaker 2: that on enforcement instead of spending it on public health outcomes, 554 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 2: new hospitals, new school, whatever it might be. So you know, 555 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 2: it's counterproductive, and like it's so frustrating the retailers that 556 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 2: we represent. Over the last three years, they've lost one 557 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 2: and a half billion dollars in retail sales. But again, 558 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 2: if people were stopping smoking, no problems, it gets worse 559 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 2: because we're also losing that customer not buying a drink, 560 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 2: a coffee, a sandwich's not coming back. So the impact 561 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 2: on legal retailers is really bad. And the most frustrating 562 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 2: point is these shops are operating not in the dark way, 563 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:30,320 Speaker 2: in plain sight, and they get reported and nothing happens. 564 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: So turning the legal retail industry as well, and all 565 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: the money is flowing into the hands of the illegal 566 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: market and the crooks behind it. It reminds me a 567 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: lot of the US experience of prohibition in the nineteen twenties. 568 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: And one of my favorite stories is Winston Churchill when 569 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 1: he was visiting the US. Obviously, Winston Churchill is someone 570 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: who used to have a bottle of champagne for breakfast, 571 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: and he of course couldn't tolerate going to a country 572 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: where he couldn't drink, and so he went there and 573 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:03,280 Speaker 1: he actually was able to drink two bottles of jinnade 574 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 1: or whatever it was, because they gave him a prescription 575 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 1: THEO Forakari, Thank you very much for joining us on 576 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: the real story. 577 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Joe. 578 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 1: And finally, this week, I just want to touch on 579 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: this weird constitutional crisis that is unfolding in Tasmania. Now 580 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: you might have blinked and missed it, but basically the 581 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: liberal state government in Tazzi is in a complete shambles. 582 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: The Premier, Jeremy Rockliff's done a huge amount of pressure 583 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: from infrastructure projects like the big AFL stadium and a 584 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,839 Speaker 1: couple of ferries that they're struggling to get done, and 585 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: basically he is losing cross bench MPs. There are rumblings 586 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: within his own party that he should go as premier, 587 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: and so he's decided instead, No, I'm going to dig 588 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 1: my heels in and I'm going to go to the 589 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: governor and I'm going to ask her to call an 590 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 1: election and we'll let the people decide. And this is 591 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 1: seen as a suicide mission by many on his own side. 592 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: I think that the Libs are going to go backwards, 593 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: but Labor probably wouldn't be able to form a majority 594 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:12,280 Speaker 1: government anyway. Anyway, So Jeremy Rockcliffe has gone to Government House. 595 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:17,280 Speaker 1: He's rocked up to the Governor of Tasmania and he said, 596 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 1: I'd like you to call an election and the Governor said, nah, 597 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: I don't think I will, and I don't really know 598 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 1: because the convention, of course, is that a governor, like 599 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 1: the Governor General, acts on the advice of the head 600 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 1: of government, the Premier or in the case the GG, 601 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: the Prime Minister. That's why we had that little constitutional 602 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,840 Speaker 1: crisis in nineteen seventy five, and everyone sort of agreed 603 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: that it would never happen again. Well, it kind of 604 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: sort of maybe is and isn't happening again in this 605 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: tiny microcosm at Tasmanian where the governor said, oh, actually, 606 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 1: I'm going to think about it, and there's suggests she 607 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: might tell him to go back and find another premier 608 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,479 Speaker 1: in the Liberal Party, or that she could to ask 609 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,399 Speaker 1: the Labor Party to form a government, even though they've 610 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,759 Speaker 1: said there's no way they're going to form government with 611 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 1: the Greens, so that would make it impossible. But either way, 612 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,759 Speaker 1: it's good to see the Governor of Tazzy getting up 613 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: to the armpits in party room politics. Didn't think I'd 614 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,360 Speaker 1: see that in my lifetime anyway. That's all we have 615 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: time for this week. Thank you so much for listening, 616 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,879 Speaker 1: leaves a review or rating. Our ratings are pretty good. 617 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 1: I noticed on Apple podcasts or Spotify or whatever the 618 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: kids are listening to now. We love it. Drop me 619 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,399 Speaker 1: a line at the Real Story at Nova podcast dot 620 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 1: com dot au, or you can head to the gram, 621 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: hit me up at Joe Underscore hildorand slide into my dms, 622 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: or just check out my beautiful smiling face. I'm all 623 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,399 Speaker 1: over the papers every Monday and Saturday. Can check out 624 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,839 Speaker 1: my columns and I will see you and you will 625 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 1: hear me next week. They ca