WEBVTT - The Media Show | 27 September 0:00:04.960 --> 0:00:07.720 Hello, Welcome to the Media Show. I'm Carol and Russo 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:10.879 filling in for Jack Howton. This week Big Show Ahead, 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:13.960 as the ABC admits it ignored a warning about serious 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:17.919 errors in its coverage of an Afghanistan war story. But 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:21.680 first on Wednesday night, the Loewy Institute Media Lecture was 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:25.800 delivered by ABC chair Kim Williams. The tenor of this 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:29.760 lecture is to discuss the connection between journalism and Australia's 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:33.199 place in the world. The content of William's speech sounded 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:36.760 like a benign and obvious common sense to me, with 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:40.160 the caveat that the walk means more than the talk. 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:43.519 But in the context of the bonkers world we live in, 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:46.000 and depending on your view of that world, it could 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:49.600 have been considered as elite leftist propaganda or a right 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:54.320 wing Zionus conspiracy the joys of the widening Overton window. 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:58.200 In his speech, william spoke of the importance of trustworthy 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:00.960 news and how the truth really matters. 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:05.800 My address today is on the vital importance of trustworthy 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:11.959 news and coverage about international affairs. It has a simple theme. 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:19.040 The truth matters, and I mean really matters, especially right now. 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:23.840 One can't approach this subject without reference to undoubtedly the 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:27.039 deepest thinker of the last one hundred years on the 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:33.479 relationship between politics and the truth. George Orwell or Will 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:37.360 famously served in the Spanish Civil War and noted how 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:41.600 while in Spain he continuously read news stories about things 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:47.800 that quite obviously never actually happened. Small skirmishers he participated 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:51.080 in involving a few dozen soldiers were written up as 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:56.120 huge battles complete with tanks and aircraft. People he knew 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:59.400 to be loyal were announced as traitors and accused of 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:03.800 conspiracy to betray the republic. He himself was denounced as 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:08.400 a fascist. All of it pure invention, made up by 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:14.640 propagandists to suit the needs of fascists, communists, and others. Famously, 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:18.960 he described this trend towards inventing facts for political ends 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:23.640 as frightening because and I quote it often gives me 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:27.160 the feeling that the very concept of objective truth is 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:28.400 fading out of the world. 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:33.280 Pertinent way to kick things off, and who better to 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:36.640 be a historical reference to George Orwell, the genius author 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:39.880 of the dystopian novel nineteen eighty four, which warned us 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:43.120 all of the ministry of truth. It was interesting him 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:46.440 speaking about populous demagogues, the communists and the fascists and 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:50.040 how they use news to broadcast what they think should 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:52.720 have happened according to the politics of the day. And 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:55.320 while he opined that fascists and communists were the worst, 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:57.080 he said they were not alone. 0:02:57.240 --> 0:02:58.880 And I think that is probably right. 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:02.400 People may not carry those precise monikers or fit neatly 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:06.080 in those boxes, but they can carry those tendencies and 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:08.760 will attempt to exercise power where there's a failure to 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:13.200 protect freedom of speech, where political expediency takes priority over 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:17.440 objective truth. Williams went on to speak about news broadcast 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:20.320 during World War Two and how the BBC was considered 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:23.000 the least censored and the most trustworthy news. 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:30.639 The BBC the truth, reliable, facts, trust. These things went 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:35.920 together along with freedom and still do. The story of 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:40.160 the BBC in World War II tells us something. Freedom 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:43.920 and the truth go together, and when truth is absent, 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:47.760 tyranny is never far away. 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:52.160 Absolutely right, and are the good old days? A far 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:55.160 cry from a headline this week where the BBC allegedly 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:58.120 told the director of the Nova Massacre film we Will 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:02.800 Dance Again, not to discribe Mussus terrorists what should they 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:08.120 have been described as freedom fighters? Pastry chefs. Like the ABC, 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:10.320 the BBC is a shadow of its former self and 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:14.800 one can only rely on a glorious legacy for so long. Anyway, 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:18.200 Williams went on. He spoke about how a strong media, 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:22.200 led by people who believe in professional journalistic ethics is 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:25.720 one of our most important democratic assets. Yep, agreed, no 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:30.000 objection from me, and that misinformation has become politics by 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:34.440 another means, and disinformation has become war by another means. 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:38.080 Interesting analysis. More on that with my panel, and then 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:38.839 he said this. 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:42.360 The task for people like me is to create more 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:47.800 opportunities for you three and your journalistic colleagues to investigate, 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:51.839 inform and report. It's my intention as the chair of 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:54.920 the ABC, with my colleagues on the board of the ABC, 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:59.520 to do just that. I, like many others, live in 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:00.520 eternal hope. 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:02.919 And then towards the back end of his speech, he 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:05.000 made two following comments. 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:08.920 First, this Australia has an interest in a duty as 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:13.320 an affluent democratic and former imperialist nation in our region 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:16.960 to do all we can to promote a thriving democratic 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:22.160 media and counter the spread of misinformation, disinformation. 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:26.440 And censorship, and a bit later this. 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:32.000 And it's why everyone who cares about Australian, regional and 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:36.440 global democracy, no matter what news organization they work for, 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:41.040 must also fight to ensure George Orwell's nightmare vision of 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:45.280 a world in which objective truth cannot survive does not 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:46.680 come true. 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:50.080 Objective truth. 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:54.160 Ironically, words like misinformation and disinformation are offer banded around 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:57.400 in order to conceal objective truth. And that's the issue. 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:01.280 It's a suppressive, ill conceived solution to a problem which 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:04.400 can be better remedied by more openness, more ideas and 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:08.400 frankly a lot less government. Overall, William's speech it hit 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:11.640 the right notes. It told me everything I wanted to hear. 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:15.279 But as I said earlier, the walk is more important 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:19.040 than the talk. And my gratuitous advice to Kim Williams 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:22.600 in the immortal words of Limp Biscuit, don't write checks 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:29.240 your ass can't cash. Joining me on the show this 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:31.880 week is six PR radio hosts Oliver Peterson and the 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:36.680 Australians Darren Davidson. Darren, what were your overall thoughts on 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:40.320 the speech and misinformation? Is it the new politics and 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:41.800 disinformation the new War. 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:49.000 I think no one would ready disagree with the argument 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:53.000 that Kim Williams put forward. The timing is very unfortunate. 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:55.880 The ABC appears to have just been caught red handed 0:06:56.279 --> 0:07:02.000 tampering with video footage to amplify force charges against SAS 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:06.680 former SAS platoon leader Heston Russell's so Kim himself in 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:09.560 the speech acknowledged that there's not going to investigation into that. 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:11.680 I think the thing that a lot of people would 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:15.880 take issue with is the fact that one the ABC 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:20.040 has argued that we've drawn the video, but the management 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:22.760 has argued that the reporters involved in the story were 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:26.040 not actually involved in the doctoring of the footage, which 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:28.840 I think is a very hard position to argue given 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:31.120 the high personal state those reporters had in the story. 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:33.680 They should be across the brief, they should know what's 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:37.000 going into the video and be across the editing process 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:39.600 as part of that package that story. And I think 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:44.280 the second thing is that Kim and others tend to 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:48.600 position all of this as being part of a cultural war, 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:53.040 when in fact it's really just shoddy journalism. And you 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:54.400 know that goes all the way to the top and 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:57.480 people should be held accountable for that. You know, lots 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:02.360 of media outlets make a state. It's an unfortunate part 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:05.520 of the process from time to time. And the ABC's 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:07.320 got a fortunate track record of making a lot of 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:09.080 these big, high profile mistakes lately. 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:16.679 And Olie hard to argue with a lot of things 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:18.880 in that speech, but you know, the ABC is quite 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:23.840 the staff run collective. Does Williams have the opportunity or 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:27.480 the ability to actually hold his own organization to the 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:28.960 fundamentals that he's talking about. 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:30.720 Well, he's come out of the blocks, hasn't her Carrow 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:33.840 since he's been the chair. And you know, as you 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:35.839 mentioned before, you can talk the talk, but now he's 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:38.079 got to walk the walk with this. And as Darren 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:41.160 just said, the timing of this with the Heston Russell example, 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:42.920 is just a terrible time for. 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:44.400 Kim Williams to be doing this speech. 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:46.760 But you know what, it sends a shot across the 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:49.720 bows all the journalists at the ABC that they have 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:52.480 been put on notice. And King has not been backward 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:54.800 in coming forward since he's been in the position. He's 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:57.640 been talking about the impartiality, the requirements under the charter 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:01.240 for what ABC journalists must hear too in their coverage 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:04.160 of whatever it is. So look, I think he's obviously 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:06.720 ruffling a few fits. He's going to be upsetting a 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:09.400 lot of the rank and file, and particularly those journalists 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:11.600 at the ABC who have been there for decades. But 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:14.080 he's got a task, he's got a job to do 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:16.320 and I think this is probably what a lot of 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:18.960 Australia has actually been crying out for in the leadership 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:21.840 of the ABC. And obviously he's making changes, he's got 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:24.199 a new managing director coming in, He's the news division 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:27.960 is on notice. The Heston Russell example, though, it is 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:29.920 just beggars belief that this could ever go to air. 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:31.760 The fact that stuff came into the lawyers and was 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.959 not passed on. What's going on in the process is there, 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:38.000 and that the fundamentally the team has been let down, 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:40.400 but the buck stops with the producer of the program, 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:42.800 the reporter of the program. They're going through a warts 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:46.240 and all process through October and it is, yes, embarrassing, 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:48.680 but something that we want to hold the higher standards 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:52.079 obviously in the Australian Broadcasting Corporation and. 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:56.120 Perhaps something like this happening kind of also sends a 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:57.439 bit of a shot across. 0:09:57.240 --> 0:09:58.280 The bout to the staff. 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:03.000 Absolutely, because you know, it's framing what his leadership intends 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:05.320 to look like so that we don't have issues like 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:08.760 this cropping up. So I think while it's unfortunate, it's 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:12.679 probably equally a very good example, one example that we 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:16.079 wish never happen, a very good example of what happens 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:17.440 when you don't hit those notes. 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:18.439 Yeah, it does. 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:20.680 And I think you know, we all operate in this 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:23.480 twenty four to seven cycle. We all operate obviously in 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:26.240 a social media cycle now as well, where every single 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:28.800 thing everybody says he's scrutinized, whether you work in the 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:31.560 commercial or the public media. And I know that, you know, 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:33.520 when we get into the Disinformation Bill and the like, 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:37.000 it is a minefield for everybody to navigate at the moments, 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:42.400 at every particular contributor or stakeholder within our industry, Carrow 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:44.760 is under more scrutiny than they probably ever have there. 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:48.040 Absolutely, and speaking of the ABC and not getting it 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:52.320 quite right, and this alleged doctored footage Debarker, well, it 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:54.920 continues to be the gift that keeps on giving anyway, 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:57.800 it turns out the ABC was notified multiple times and 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:01.600 not just once, as it has claimed about serious errors 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:05.680 in its coverage of this military operation involving Australian soldiers 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:09.040 in Afghanistan in twenty twelve, but it failed to address 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:12.280 the problems. And although the ABC has announced there'll be 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:18.040 an independent investigation into this incident, David Anderson, the managing 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:21.800 director of the ABC, has admitted that their legal team 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:25.760 was notified about the issue with this audio, but did 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:30.319 not pass on this information to the news team, Darren. 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:34.080 David Anderson has made quite the admission here. How much 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:37.600 does this affect the ABC's credibility. 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:43.840 It's very bad. It sharp's public trust in public broadcast 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:47.480 journalism and the roads audience numbers and underpins the declines 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:52.480 they've had, particularly on radio. So it's a really bad 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.560 result all around them. And ultimately, as you've just noted, 0:11:56.520 --> 0:11:59.319 Kim and management must take responsibility for this. That story 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:02.000 that you mentioned that that was the story that was 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:05.720 broken in The Australian last Monday. It's absolutely extraordinary and 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.960 I think we eagerly await the outcome of the investigation 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:11.720 to this incident and to find out exactly what happened 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:14.600 there and why that information, that vital information wasn't passed 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:15.280 along the chain. 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:21.120 And Ollie, why do you think so they've announced an investigation, 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:23.360 but why make that sort of a mission ahead of 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:24.199 the investigation. 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:25.240 What's that about? 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:26.959 Well, I reckon they're trying to get in front of 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:30.559 it now because they've been completely embarrassed by it, firstly, Caro. Secondly, 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:33.240 they've obviously got a little bit of a predetermined outcome 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:36.559 with Alan Sunderland coming back in to do this inquiry 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.360 and report back by the end of October. We've already 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:42.680 identified there is a problem between the legal team and 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:46.600 the program team. So why that information was obviously never 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:48.640 passed on for a start, that's got to be the 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:51.320 first question that's asked. Heads have got a role though 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:54.160 that there's got to be responsibility in this because you know, 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:58.280 we are ruining potentially here, and there is obviously before 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:01.680 the courts, and there's there's allegations, there's deformation suits. But 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.800 this is a very very serious charge against As Darren 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:08.560 said here, it erodes your trust in public journalism. So 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:11.560 if there's doctored footage that's gone to air, the eyes 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:13.720 haven't been dotted, the t's haven't been crossed. 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:15.800 Where does that all stem from. 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.920 Obviously they're trying to take some heat out of what 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:20.800 they're expecting to find by. 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:24.520 The end off tape of the iceberg, something that's already there. 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:24.839 Carrow. 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:27.880 I think we know we'll see sooner rather later what 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:28.559 turns up there. 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:31.079 Yeah, I think it will be interesting. Anyway, we'll take 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:33.520 a quick break and when we're back how the government's 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:36.960 Misinformation Bill will do nothing but start feel legitimate debate. 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:43.920 Welcome back, and we are not done on misinformation now. 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:47.720 Let's move on to the government's insidious Misinformation Bill and 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:50.560 the dismal fact that Albanezi and co. Are only giving 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:54.200 Australians one week to make submissions to a Senate inquiry 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:58.120 on this proposed piece of legislation. LMP Senator Matt Canavan 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.560 didn't miss when he posted the Labor Party is giving 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:04.080 people just a week to make submissions on their plans 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:07.160 to censor the Australian people. True to form, they're trying 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:09.840 to silence people before they even have the powers to 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:14.360 do so. Get your submissions in here asap. Submissions close 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:17.280 on thirty six of September, So if you do want 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:19.920 to have your peace, I politely suggest you get onto it. 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:24.920 In the following days, infectious diseases specialist Nick Coatesworth confirmed 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.840 that he had made a submission to the inquiry. He 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:31.600 posted on x the branding of legitimate debate on COVID 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:35.960 as misinformation during both the pandemic and ongoing has provoked 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:38.880 me to write a submission to the Senate Committee overseeing 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:43.680 the Combating Misinformation and Disinformation Bill. He continued, any. 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:49.480 Thing that's misinformation and disinformation that affects preventive health care 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:53.240 or for example, public health or pandemic response. And I 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:55.880 just looked at that and thought, Gee, after what we've 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:59.480 been through and all the uncertainty about what misinformation and 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:04.600 disinformation was, how can we actually have a law that 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:08.560 starts to define those sort of things in a way 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:12.120 that can be contested in a sort of legal sense. 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:16.240 And if that isn't enough, he also said, let's teach 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:19.560 our kids critical thought and how to question and debate, 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:23.000 not how to dismiss or reject other's opinions or ideas 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:27.560 with random accusations of misinformation. Remember, this bloke is an 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:32.520 infectious diseases expert, not a nonpracticing GP, not a paleontologist. 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:33.640 Someone who's a. 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:37.320 Specialist in this area, and it appears someone who's sick 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:41.000 to the back teeth of the feel good, budding authoritarian 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:46.440 medical hoota suffocating either existing or evolving best practice by 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:55.760 throwing around the world misinformation like confetti to silence debate. Ollie, 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:59.280 A week feels like a conveniently short period of time. 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:01.760 Yeah, I think it's going to actually bypass most people 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:03.400 and not even realize what's. 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:04.160 Happening here, Karen. 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:06.680 I think that a lot of australiay that there are 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:10.040 so many issues on the political agenda at the moment, 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:12.560 this is one that hasn't quite got the coverage which 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.720 probably would or get the airtime that it probably would, 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:18.920 And I think that this is something that we really need. 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:21.000 Some time to critically think and debate. 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:24.960 Absolutely, you don't want pedled artificial intelligence, fake news and 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.560 the like. But as Nick Coatsworth says, there, we've got 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:29.280 to be able to have open debate. We've got to 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:31.160 be able to have critical thought. We can't just be 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:34.600 truth telling and be told this is the absolute truth. 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:37.560 You've got to be able to have that robust abate. 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:39.920 That's why we live in a democracy. Carrow and I 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:41.960 think if there's something that a government of the day 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:44.200 doesn't like that's out there and they put the pressure 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:47.240 or a government select committee, you know, authority, whether it's 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:48.920 act or whoever it is, says that's got to come 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:51.720 down the pressure on those sorts of things. I just 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:55.440 I think there is so much of a gray area 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:58.840 in this which is not being even thoroughly explained to 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:01.320 the Australian people right now that this one's just going 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:03.640 to go through when people go hold on what's happened? Why? 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:05.959 Why can't we have that? So one week is certainly 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:06.640 not enough and. 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:11.320 I feel like the overall impact is a net negative. Darren, 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:13.000 have we learned nothing from COVID? 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:17.320 I totally agree that everything that you've said there. I 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:20.160 think crossbench senators when the bill reaches the Upper House 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:23.199 should proceed with extreme caution. You know, it's not in 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.920 question that tech monopolies and the big social media platforms 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:30.760 should be subject to Australia's laws and regulations. But this 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:34.920 new legislation that's been proposed, it's a powerful censorship tool 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:39.199 which can potentially enable governments and vested interest groups the 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:42.920 ability to actually exploit and stifle political and public debate. 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:48.080 And that's a very very, very dangerous development. And as 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:50.040 you've said, I think this is kind of this is 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:53.320 kind of flown in under the radar, but it's potentially 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:54.320 very very dangerous. 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:56.920 Yeah. 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:00.840 Absolutely, Now moving on, one of my favorite pastimes is 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:03.920 watching the left of our itself. Now, you would all 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:06.440 be aware of the Robodett Royal Commission, and you may 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.359 know that journalist and author Rick Morton. 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:10.320 Wrote a book about it. 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:14.760 He titled A Meanstreak, a moral vacuum, a dodgy debt generator, 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:18.280 and a multi billion dollar government shakedown. Now, Morton, to 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:22.119 his credit, is scathing of everyone involved or connected with Robodet. 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:24.600 And whether you agree with the premise of his arguments, 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:27.680 that's totally another matter, but it's fair to say no 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:31.240 one escapes criticism. Morton is also a senior reporter at 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:32.960 the Sat Day Paper, and this week he took a 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:35.960 swing at his own masthead for an opinion piece he 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:40.679 described as unethical and a betrayal of actual reporting. The 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:44.280 piece in question, well, Chris Wallace, a professor at the 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:47.000 University of Canberra and a columnist for the paper, appendant 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:50.800 opinion piece defending her longtime friend and former Department of 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:55.840 Human Services Secretary Rane Leon regarding her involvement in robodebt 0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:59.080 Moreton and accusus Wallace of misrepresenting the findings of the 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:02.879 Royal Commission, following which Waller said she was happy to 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:07.280 discuss forty years of neoliberal corrosion of the public service 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:11.480 over a kuppa. It was incredible to watch. 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:15.240 Ollie. 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:18.680 You might not agree with everything that Rick has said 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:19.840 in his book or what. 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:20.359 He said on me. 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:23.560 He's said a lot about the Royal Commission. He's definitely 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:24.760 not run cover for anyone. 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:27.600 No, And he's brave, isn't he Like he's very brave 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:30.240 to be taking on his own publication. But you know what, 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:33.120 I cherdn good on him, Like if that's if that's 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:35.680 the the line he wants to take, you want to 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:37.919 speak out against his own publication. Again, it's a brave 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:39.919 it's a brave mood that I think he's made. But 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:41.720 you know, good luck to him. I know he said 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:44.240 subsequently had a really bad weekend, he had an ill dog, 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:47.320 and that was obviously contributing to where he was personally 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:51.040 when he decided to fire off those tweets. But this is, 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:53.640 you know, very interesting when you see. 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:54.320 That play out publicly. 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:56.160 Now, that's the sort of that's the sort of line 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:59.040 I might take up internally and not necessarily put it 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:01.360 out on social media. Might just have a quiet chat 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:04.560 to my content manager or do I you know, radio director, 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:05.320 to say, oh, what are. 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:06.040 We doing here? Right? 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:09.359 I think these are sometimes conversations we can take off 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:12.200 air carrows so we don't have to have the public meltdown. 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:15.960 Yeah, yeah, it's it's unusual how that doesn't happen probably 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.720 often as it should. In the premise of Wallace's article though, 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:22.520 it was quite something. It was a very interesting position 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:23.760 for her to take. 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:26.680 Yeah. 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:28.960 Look, I mean, I don't think which is a great 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:32.480 place to take these kind of personal spats with other journalists. 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:33.960 I don't think it's a great look in front of 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:38.119 the readers, partners and other kind of stakeholders in your paper, 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:41.760 And it just doesn't look very professional. And you know, 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:45.600 noted that Rick said he had a bad week that 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:47.800 were being said. I think, you know, he just looks 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:50.560 like he's getting a bit too. The story is far 0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:54.199 too personal for him. He is very passionate journalist and 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:56.679 he's a very good journalist as well, but it's just 0:20:56.720 --> 0:20:59.119 not a great look, and I think, you know, he 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:02.240 should just let his journey as did the talking. And 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:05.640 you know, the great thing about newspapers is that you know, 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:08.280 when they're working really really well, that they have views 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:11.280 from both sides and representing lots of different positions across 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:13.680 the spectrum, and that that should be fine and he 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:16.040 should have confidence in Money's doing that he can be 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:18.080 an opposing view even if he doesn't agree with that. 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:21.680 So yeah, I think he should just take that offline 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:23.359 and hopefully we don't see that again. 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:27.919 Yeah, fair enough. Now, before we finish up tonight, I 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:29.879 want to get to your stories of the week. 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:30.320 Ollie. 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:31.160 Let's start with you. 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:33.919 What's yours? It has to be negative gearing, Carrow. I mean, 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:34.560 it really does. 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:36.840 How in the world the government thought, with all the 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:38.639 issues on the agenda at the moment, they thought it 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:40.640 was a good idea to fly the kite on negative 0:21:40.640 --> 0:21:43.560