1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:01,840 Speaker 1: So what I teach people is to look for groups 2 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: and clusters of behaviors and in your case, you engage. 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:09,040 Speaker 2: In a lot of what you're going to send. 4 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 3: Hi, guys, welcome back to Just for Girls. We have 5 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 3: a very different episode this. 6 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 2: Week, a very very exciting one. 7 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 4: So we have Steve joining us today on this episode 8 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 4: and he is known as the human lie Detector. 9 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 2: Welcome Steve, Thank you, thanks for having me. 10 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 3: We're so excited to have you. So Steve obviously does 11 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 3: a lot of work in like crime and all that stuff, 12 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 3: but today we're just more here to hear about you know, 13 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 3: how can you tell if someone's lying, if a partner's 14 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 3: lying all that? Jazz, I want to preface, I've lost 15 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 3: my voice. I know it's going to be hard on 16 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 3: the ears, guys, so let Sam take the reins. 17 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 4: So, as easy mentioned, you work on a lot of 18 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 4: homicide cases and some major crime cases in Australia. How 19 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 4: did you get yourself into that industry and tell us 20 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 4: a little bit more about that and what you do 21 00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 4: for the work. 22 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: Well, I joined South Australia Police and then Victoria Police 23 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: and I was always interested in psychological profiling, what made 24 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: serial killers and serial sex offenders tick. So I was 25 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: fortunate enough to go to the FBI. Back in those days, 26 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: it was called the Behavioral Sciences Unit. But the more 27 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: I learned about profiling, the more interested I'm becoming cognitive 28 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: and behavioral interviewing. I want to know why some of 29 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: the detectives I worked with were not very good at 30 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: spotting a lie or reading body language. So while I 31 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: was over there, they said, look, do you use polygraph 32 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: testing in your police department? And back then we didn't, 33 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: And they said, we use it for frauds, extortions, homicide, 34 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: sexual offense. Is what don't you train up with us 35 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: and then take the technology back? So that's exactly what 36 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: I did. But after I come back, I thought, wouldn't 37 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: it be great to have the skill sets to work 38 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: out when people were lying to by analyzing not just 39 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: what they're doing, but also what they're saying and how 40 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: they're saying it. And then all of a sudden, I 41 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: started getting a lot of media attention, and as you said, 42 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: they media dubbed me the human light attective. And this 43 00:01:58,480 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: is why I have no friends. 44 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 3: Cool name. 45 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: I love that I'm nervous, to be honest, Well, it's 46 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: funny because as you're sitting there, I'm actually baselining, benchmarking 47 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: your behaviors at the moment. And there'll be a reason why, 48 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: which we'll go into a little bit later. But while 49 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: I was doing the training, all of a sudden, I 50 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: started getting all these requests. One of them is to 51 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: write a book, which I did, and then I started 52 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: training intelligence agencies, homicide detectives, police departments, and so on. 53 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: And I guess at the end of the day, we 54 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: all want to know what happens when people lie, but 55 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 1: more importantly, how to pick out when somebody is lying. 56 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 1: And research on this is very clear. In fact, it's 57 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 1: very difficult for the average person to lie with believability 58 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: and credibility. However, the accuracy in picking out when somebody 59 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: is lying is between forty eight and fifty one percent 60 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: of the time that you're accurate. Why because we're often 61 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: influenced by people. We want to believe that the person 62 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: is telling us the truth, and we don't always pick 63 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: up the telltale signs of what people do when they're lying. See. 64 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: I may be able to think of a lie, but 65 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,239 Speaker 1: can I effectively communicate that lie and have you believe 66 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: what I say, And ironically, people often won't lie to you, 67 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 1: they'll just edit the information they supply you with, so 68 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: they'll be evasive or missive, dismissive, side step the issue, 69 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: not answer the question. But I honestly think there's no 70 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: such thing as a good liar, because there will always 71 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 1: be some tell, some sea beach, some leakage. But the 72 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: problem is is we miss those signs and those viotal cues. 73 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: When I train with the FBI, they had a course 74 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: called adaptive Interviewing, and they teach their agents to benchmark 75 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: or baseline then look for deviations from that normative behavior. 76 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: If you haven't done that, how on earth are you 77 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: going to see when somebody's lying. 78 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 4: To Yeah, so how would you then define lying? Are 79 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 4: there different types of lying? As you said just before 80 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 4: that some people may just double on the truth and 81 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 4: stuff like that. Do you think they're consciously lying on 82 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 4: that or they're not even conscious that they're doing it? 83 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: Like? 84 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 2: What are the types of lying? 85 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: Okay, so the first part of the question, what is 86 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: a lie? A lie is where you willfully mislead somebody 87 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: knowing that what you're saying is factually incorrect, and that's 88 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: a deliberate behavior. Okay, and what are the things that 89 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: people lie about? Oh, geers. We lie about how we feel. 90 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: We lie about to get ahead, We lie to impress 91 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: a potential partner or mate. We lie to make ourselves 92 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: look better. We lie for a myriad of reasons. And 93 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: it's part of a social concept that if and I 94 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 1: remember working on particular case and related to a child's 95 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: sexual abuse case, and the child was quite young, and 96 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: it was interesting because the psychologist said that a child 97 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 1: up to a certain age, if you say a dress 98 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: your daughter as a ballerine or a fairy, she may 99 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 1: honestly believe that she's a fairy. Is that a lie 100 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: until such time that the person knows that what they're 101 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: doing is a lie, then that's a totally different ballgame. 102 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: So what we need to do is just analyze what 103 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: people say and how they say it. Nine times out 104 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: of ten people say, oh, you know, he looked away, 105 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: he must be lying. Well, it's much more to it. 106 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: We need to look at verbal, nonverbal and para paraalinguistics, 107 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: which we can talk about. 108 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 3: Okay, I want to hear right, I've already We've been 109 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 3: doing this for like what five minutes, and I'm already 110 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 3: like this is my favorite episode. 111 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 2: I have a ton of side. 112 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: Let me give you a quick example. We'll start with you, 113 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: what was the very first job you had? 114 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,239 Speaker 2: For a very first job, I worked at a grocery store. 115 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: Do you remember when? That was? 116 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 2: Twenty seventeen? 117 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: Okay? And what was no of your boss? 118 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 2: Jordan? Okay and Brandan? 119 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 1: Now what happened there is four times you looked away 120 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: when you were recalling historical events. Okay. Now, if you're thinking, 121 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: how is that important? Well, that's very important to someone 122 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: like me because I'm benchmarking your behavior. So I know 123 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: most of the time, when you're processing information recalling a 124 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: historical event, you look Sometimes you're left, sometimes right, predominantly 125 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: more to your right. Now, if you're likely to fabricate 126 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: or create or embellish a false memory, you're then going 127 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: to access the creative side of your brain. So I 128 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 1: just prove that a loss of eye contact is not 129 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:19,559 Speaker 1: on its own indicative deception, but more so of neurological recall. Right, 130 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: So what I teach people is to look for groups 131 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: and clusters of behaviors, and in your case, you engage 132 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: in a lot of I have no idea what you're 133 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: going to say either you engage in a lot of 134 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: preening and grooming gestures. There's a big difference. Okay, so 135 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: I'm not really good at this because I'm not a girl. 136 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: But let's say I'm a girl and I see a 137 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,799 Speaker 1: guy and I like this guy. Often when a girl 138 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: is interested in a guy, she will bombard him with 139 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: behavioral cues to signify that interest. But the problem is 140 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: men have no idea. Men don't know what the non 141 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: verbal cues and signs are. So something like if I 142 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: was a girl interested, there'll be things like good eye contact, 143 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: touching hair, good frontal alignment. 144 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 3: I think I would just consider myself a figiti. Do 145 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 3: you know what you are? 146 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: A figitor? But here's the difference, right, So when you talk, 147 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: you're quite animated, whereas you're the opposite. So when you talk, 148 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: that's fine, But if you're likely to get into a lie, 149 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: usually what we'll see is nonverbal cues such as deliberate blocking, masking, 150 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: and concealment behaviors. I call them lockdowns. And that's different 151 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: from what you do when you're normally talking. So when 152 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: a person lies, it creates what we call cognitive load, 153 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: and it takes a lot of processing. If I'm going 154 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: to tell you or try to convince you of something 155 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: that I'm saying is true and I know it's not, 156 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: takes a lot of brain power. And in fact, under 157 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: MRI scanning, when we lie, our brain lights up like 158 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: a Christmas tree. It is very difficult for the average 159 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: person to lie and to like convincingly. 160 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 3: Right you, sorry, quicks? I know, do you think because you've. 161 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: Started it's not a gesture that was actually a people grooming, 162 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: not a printing gesture like hair out of the eyes, 163 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: that type of thing. You did that a lot, but 164 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: also playing with jewelry. Now what I'm doing is I'm 165 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: drawing your attention to it. I say this, never, if 166 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: you go on date or if you're meeting people, never 167 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: ever draw a person's attention to their body language. Why 168 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: do you think that is? 169 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 2: Because then they'll stop doing it. 170 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're going to moderate, regulate and control it. So 171 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: what I teach people is to use that in your arsenal, 172 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: together with good questioning, because sooner or later, the real 173 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: personality of somebody will show if you ask the right questions. 174 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 3: Right, I need you to be sitting next to me 175 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 3: on my dates. 176 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 4: So are there certain as you just said, you described 177 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 4: easy and eye quite separately, are there certain personality traits 178 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 4: that make someone more prone to lying? 179 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it depends. I deal with a lot of pedophiles. 180 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: People will often say to me, who do you think 181 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,439 Speaker 1: make the best lies? Politicians or what? Pedophiles? Without a doubt, 182 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: they're very good manipulating their victims, their treatment providers, and 183 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: everyone in between. So usually you'll find if in a 184 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: social context, you've got to understand the motive, If you 185 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: can understand why people lie, then you're closer to actually 186 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: working out when people are lying. So usually in a 187 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: let's say it's a dating situation, people are going to 188 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: tell you what they want you to know. A great 189 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: example my previous business partner, Liz, she was on an 190 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: online dating site and she was reading out this profile 191 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: to me and she went out with this guy and 192 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: on the profile it said he's six foot two, is 193 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: really well built, six pack. Abs goes to the gym, 194 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: and I'm reading the profile and I'm having major problems 195 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 1: with it, and one of the statements was, I'm trying 196 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,959 Speaker 1: to get to the gym. What he's doing? Is he 197 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: telling you what he's trying to do if he'd gone 198 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: to the gym. I go to the gym regularly, So 199 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: how people use language will often bring them unstuck. Anyway, 200 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 1: she goes out with this guy, and she said, I 201 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 1: couldn't believe it when I actually met him. He was 202 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: not six foot he was about five foot four, had 203 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: a podge guts and teeth like a serrated steak knife. 204 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,839 Speaker 1: So there's the reason why people lie in dating profiles 205 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: to find a potential partner and meet them, even though 206 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: their part or whoever they meet will realize that they're 207 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: not the person that they say they are. And you 208 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: can understand why people lie. I mean, in my context, 209 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: in criminal context, you lie to me, and I've got 210 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: enough forensic, scientific, medical, or cooperative evidence, and a jury 211 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: convicts you, You're going to jail. And I don't care 212 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: how well prepared, and we were talking about this before, 213 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: how well prepared somebody is. You cannot possibly pre anticipate 214 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: every question that I'm likely to ask you. A great 215 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: example is if I'm interviewing you for say a homicide, 216 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: and the pathologist has established a time of death yesterday 217 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: at seven fifteen pm, I'm going to ask you everything 218 00:10:58,040 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: you did from the time you woke up to the 219 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: time you went to be and say around six pm, 220 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: I'll say, what did you do then? I went out? 221 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: Where did you go to a restaurant? What was the 222 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: name of the restaurant, How did you get there, who 223 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 1: did you go there with, What time did you leave, 224 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: What time did you arrive? Have you been there before? 225 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: What was on the menu? What did you order, how 226 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: did you pay? What time did you leave? That takes 227 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: a lot of cognitive processing if you're lying, and there 228 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: will be sea pitch and that's where good interviewers can 229 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: see that. 230 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 4: And will you not say that you can court them 231 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 4: out on the lie? Will you just take notes and 232 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 4: go like would you clock it? 233 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 2: And go? They were iffy about that. 234 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: Well, it depends on what context. In a social context, 235 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: And I remember many years ago, I was at a 236 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: party and I was doing a lot of television in 237 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: the US, and somebody introduced me as a human light detector. 238 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: And what happened was this woman and there's probably about 239 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: forty fifty people there, and she said to me, she said, oh, 240 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: so you're the human line detector. I said, well, I 241 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: don't call myself that, but the media do and she said, Okay, 242 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: tell me if I'm lying. She said, I had an affair, 243 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking. Now, think about this in a social context. 244 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: If I start, if I start asking questions and it 245 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: looks like to me she's lying and I call her out, 246 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,559 Speaker 1: imagine because her husband's there. Imagine the conflict that's going 247 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: to create. Whereas if I say, oh no, I don't 248 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: see any deception there, then she's going to say, well, 249 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 1: he's not very good. So years ago, if I saw 250 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: somebody lying in a social contest, I might actually take 251 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: him on. Now I don't why, because we all lie. 252 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: Think about it. Your partner comes home and he's got 253 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: a new shirt or something like that, and he says, 254 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 1: what do you think? 255 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 3: Love it great? 256 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: But see what you just did. Then you did contrary nonverbals. 257 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: Two three things you did. Then your foot moved, your 258 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: hand went like that, and you shook your head from 259 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 1: side to side. Now subconsciously you were engaging those behaviors 260 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: even though you didn't know you were doing it. 261 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 2: So see, I would just say I wouldn't like it. 262 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, but see, but look at the other side of that. 263 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: My ex partner, when I finished the story, I understand 264 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: why she was my ex Men and women shop very differently, okay, 265 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: So a lot of men will go and make the 266 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: kill when we're out of there. So Kath, she would 267 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: go into a shop, she'd go, try all these dresses 268 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: and stuff on, and then go to another shop and 269 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: do it again, and another shop and do it again. 270 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: And for me it was like torture. One day, she 271 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: comes home, she walks down the stairs, she puts on 272 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: the dress, walks down, says and says, what do you think? 273 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,959 Speaker 1: And it was terrible. And this is before my training 274 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: with the FBI, mind you, and I really told her 275 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: what I think. What I thought? I said, it looks awful, 276 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: looks like a mobile ABC test bet. And then I 277 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: saw a distinct change in her behavior. So think about it. 278 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: I get into more trouble by being upfront, truthful, direct 279 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 1: and honest with people than if I like, so we 280 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: are socially conditioned. I remember being on a train many 281 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: years ago, and I mean, what do parents teach their 282 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: children importance of being upfront, truthful, direct and honest until 283 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,719 Speaker 1: they are Then they criticize, castigated in on line. The 284 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: great example, I'm not train. It's about thirty people. This 285 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: young girl turns around and says to her mum, look, mummy, 286 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:16,079 Speaker 1: that man has big titious and the mother turns out 287 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: she can't say that. You can't say that. Now there's 288 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: the message, Oh it's okay. You'd be upfront, direct and 289 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: truthful to me, but don't hurt other people's feelings. And 290 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: this is where the social process and men and women 291 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: life for very different reasons. Men will Women will often 292 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: lie to make someone else feel better about themselves, whereas 293 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: men will often lie to make themselves look better. So 294 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: we have to understand the context behind that as well. 295 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 2: So interesting, So true? 296 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: Do you know who make better lives? Men and women? 297 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 2: What do you think women? 298 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: Why? 299 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 4: I think it's because you're as a man, you're meant 300 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 4: to be a protector, but a women you're meant like men. 301 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, they do it for themselves. Is that right? 302 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: Partially, there's a lot of research by Louis Bresildin in 303 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 1: the US, and what they found is that women have 304 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: more evaluation centers in their brain than men, so they 305 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: are much more observant at body language and nonverbal cues 306 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: public maternal instinct, I guess. But they're also more fluent 307 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: with language at a younger age, so there's much less 308 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: response latency and hesitancy when a female is lying, So 309 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: there's less arms and ahs, less pauses and those type 310 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: of things, but there's more content, structure, information, and detail, 311 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: whereas men's laws are very simple. You know, I got 312 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: caught in traffic or something like that. 313 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 4: Someone says that when you are trying to cover up 314 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 4: the truth and you're lying, to not always go into detail. 315 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 4: Was just when like horribly, Like say, if my friend 316 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 4: came home and she had cheated on her partner and 317 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 4: she was like, I don't know what to do. He's 318 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 4: questioning me. He thinks I cheated. I did cheat, but 319 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 4: I don't want him to know. I always go don't 320 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 4: go over detail, don't overcompensate. But you're saying to do 321 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 4: that almost women to give more detail. 322 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: So what I've seen in my role is that often 323 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: people who are deceptive will provide a lot of unnecessary 324 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: detail not directly related to the issue. So there'll be evasive, 325 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: I'll try to divert you, or they'll actually blame the 326 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: other partner or the other party, which is a typical 327 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: deflecting technique the deceptive people do. And you watch I 328 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: mean there's so many non verbal cues. I mean, I'm 329 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: looking at you playing with your ring, right, that's probably 330 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: a normal natural thing for you to do. Sometimes people 331 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: may lack confidence or they may be nervous. But what 332 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: happens is if the questions become a threatening stimulus, we 333 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: then see changes in behavior. So the questions create the 334 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: threatening stimulus, which induces a change in behavior. Research shows 335 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: that often if we know that what we're saying is 336 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: factually incorrect, we feel uncomfortable about it, and subconsciously our 337 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: hand will go up to our mouth to cover or 338 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: to stop those false words coming out of our mouth. 339 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: But the last moment there'll be deflections such as ear tagging, 340 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: eye rubbing, nose blocking, or nose touching. In fact, we 341 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 1: have glands at the tip of our nose which make 342 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 1: our nose itchy when we lie, believe or not, so 343 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: secretes a particular chemical. So the Pinocco theory is not 344 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: that far removed from reality. But holistically we need to 345 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 1: look for groups or clusters of behavior. It's not just 346 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: one offs. 347 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 4: Are there any certain facial expressions or justice when you 348 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 4: can tell that someone's being instantly and truthful as you 349 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 4: said with the deflection of the face. What is someone say? 350 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 4: I was on a date with a man and I 351 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 4: was asking him a bunch of questions. What are some 352 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 4: body mannerisms or anything that they can do that You're. 353 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 2: Like, oh, bit of a red flag. 354 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 1: So I like to start with the face and work 355 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,719 Speaker 1: our way down because their face is the most exposed 356 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: part of our body. Now, a guy by the name 357 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: of Professor Paul Lickman did his PhD in micro Expressions 358 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: and distress signals. WhatsApp When we experience a feeling, a thought, 359 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 1: or an emotion, it will exhibit itself on our face 360 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 1: botox dependent within one twenty fifth to one one hundredth 361 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,959 Speaker 1: of a second. Okay, so as humans, we all exhibit 362 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: the same facial expressions of shock, horror, happiness, contempt, sorrow 363 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: and discussed now what happens is if we feel a 364 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 1: particular emotion. He crowded what we call the facial action 365 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: coding system. So how we started is quite interesting. When 366 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: he did his PhD, he went to Papua New Guinea 367 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: and found a remote tribe and what he found was, 368 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: even though they'd never had any contact with Western civilization, 369 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: they all exhibited the same facial micro expressions of happiness, sadness, 370 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 1: contempt discussed and so on. As someone in New York City. 371 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: So what that meant was we were born with particular 372 00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 1: muscular facial features that he combines. What he'd look at 373 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: is I'll give an example. You tell me if you 374 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: think this is a real smile. 375 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 3: No, because it's not in your eyes. 376 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: Okay. So a real smile will involve the ubicularis oculi 377 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 1: muscles and the zygometric majors. What does that mean, Well, 378 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: the corners of my lips will be pulled up and 379 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: they may be crinkling around the eyes. That may be 380 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 1: a genuine smile, okay, whereas a false smile usually cursing 381 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: the nose down. And we see that a lot. You know, 382 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: when people are posing to somebody. They don't like that 383 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 1: that type of thing. So micro expressions are really good. 384 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: So it could be discussed. Let me give you a 385 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: couple and you tell me if you can work them out. 386 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 1: So what i'll gets you to describe my face, then 387 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,679 Speaker 1: you tell me which emotion you think is connected to it. 388 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 2: Okay. 389 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 3: So he's got a bit of a crinkled eyebrow there. 390 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:47,719 Speaker 3: It's kind of like he's leaning. 391 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, so like he's kind of like cheesing a little bit, 392 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 4: Like he looks a bit dispassed. 393 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 3: He's discussed discussed. 394 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: So you watch somebody if they smell something future like, 395 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: the head will go back, there'll be a furrowing and 396 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: bridging above the nose and there'll be a head recall. 397 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: So that's discussed. What about this one? 398 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 2: So you went to an angle a little bit into 399 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 2: your shoulder, Yeah, sorrows. 400 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, so what emotion do you think that's indicative of. 401 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 4: It's inquisity suff you don't, you're not like your going 402 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 4: You're like you're questioning someone you're not really sure that 403 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 4: they're like. 404 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, disbelief or contempt and Paul Ekman And it's really 405 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: interesting because there's an intellectual movement of the mouth to 406 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: one side, and when somebody is doubtful, they'll do something 407 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: like that. So if you're let's say you're a salesperson, 408 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: you're selling somebody something and they're like that, I know, 409 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: over exaggerating, but that would tell me that that they're 410 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: not believing what you're saying. But also what I do 411 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 1: is I have high and low confidence gestures. What does 412 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: that mean? Well, if somebody is doubtful about what this, 413 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 1: so they're telling you a story. And I see this 414 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: all the time, and people don't even realize they're doing it. 415 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 1: They'll actually do something so minute like that, I just 416 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: did it. A micro expression shoulder shrug. Now you ask 417 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: a child or something, you ask a child a question, 418 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: they don't know the answer, they'll lift their eyebrows, raise 419 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: their shoulders, and put their palms up. Now, if so, 420 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 1: for example, you're telling me a story you know it's 421 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: actually incorrect and false, you will engage in subconscious micro 422 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 1: expressions and nonverbal cues that will actually be at odds 423 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 1: with what you're saying. So I give you a great example. 424 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 1: You go to someplace and you're eating the food and 425 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: it's the worst food you've ever tasted, and they say, 426 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: what do you think. You go, yeah, that's good. 427 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 2: Oh you just shrugged. Yeah. 428 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,199 Speaker 1: That indicates uncertainty and doubt. But if I say, oh, no, 429 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 1: it's really good, but at the same time shrug my shoulder, 430 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: then that's a double why okay. Or if I do 431 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 1: that and also my hand goes to my mouth and 432 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,959 Speaker 1: touches my nose or rubs my ear, that's a deflect. 433 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: At the last moment, because in a social context, I 434 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: can't say, on God, God, why has he got his 435 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 1: hand in front of his mouth? So at the last 436 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: moment would be a deflection. And it's behavioral scientists believe 437 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: it's a way of diffusing the anxiety associated with ben 438 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: caught in the life. 439 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 3: Do you think the can you toll between someone who's 440 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,640 Speaker 3: just generally a fidgety person or someone that's doing those 441 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 3: little micro movements. 442 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: When they're laying So watching somebody who's quite fidget is 443 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,360 Speaker 1: quite easy. That's you to a tea. So in fact, 444 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,719 Speaker 1: when you first walked in, I was watching you all 445 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,360 Speaker 1: over the place, whereas you were quite calm and measured 446 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: and comfortable. Right, But that in itself doesn't mean anything. 447 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: All we what we need to do is baseline, then 448 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 1: look for deviations all change. So let's say I ask 449 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 1: you a question, you know, did you take that phone? 450 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: And you did take the phone? And you don't want 451 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: me to know. You'd say, someone go, why would I 452 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,479 Speaker 1: do something like that? Now you might become defensive. And 453 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: by the way, I see this all the time. We 454 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: don't want to look at just single one offs, like 455 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: a loss of eye contact. We need to look for 456 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 1: groups or clusters of behavior. Let me give you a 457 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 1: great example. Throw a question, any question you like at me. 458 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. Any question. 459 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 2: What did you have for breakfast this morning? 460 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 1: What I have for breakfast? That's interesting? Why is that important? Now? 461 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 1: Let's look what I just did. Then. Number one, I 462 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: moved in the cheap backwards. Number two, I crossed my legs. 463 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: Number three I turned sideways. No frontal alignment. Number four, 464 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: I cross my arms. Number five. Did I answer the question? 465 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 2: No? 466 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 1: So we need to look for groups and clusters of behaviors, 467 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 1: but we also need to look for inconsistencies in language. 468 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: Let me give you a quick example. If I asked 469 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 1: you what you did this morning, neurologically, through sensory input, 470 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: you'd be able to tell me what you did, what 471 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: you heard, what you saw, what you felt. Conversations took place, why, 472 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: because you live through them. Whereas if you're fabricating or 473 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: creating a false memory that never existed for everyone ling 474 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 1: you tell, you have to now invent two or three 475 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: to protect yourself from the first one. Now you're getting 476 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: caught in a vords because the more over time, truthful 477 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: people will always recall their events from front to back, 478 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: back to front. But what they'll do the deceptive people 479 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: never do is they'll tell you how they feel, or 480 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 1: they'll tell you what emotions they experienced. So what do 481 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: I mean. They'll say something like I couldn't believe it, 482 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: you know, I just I had this gut feeling something 483 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: was wrong. So they're actually including themselves in the narrative. 484 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: Whereas a lot of statements that I see if a 485 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: deceptive or if any person removes themselves from the narrative, 486 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: I have red flags. So if I'm asking you what 487 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: you did say yesterday morning, and you say went to 488 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: the shop, but you don't use a pronoun such as 489 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: I went to the shop, I want to know, why 490 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: are you not including yourself in the story of the narrative? 491 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 3: You weren't actually there. Is it because they weren't actually 492 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 3: doing it? 493 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,959 Speaker 1: Well, it might be because they normally talk like that, 494 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: because in some cultures through Asia, they talk in present tense. 495 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 1: In our society, western society, if you're relying a historic event, 496 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: you'll be talking in singular person past tense. I woke up, 497 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: I had a shower, I walked at the dog. Anytime 498 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: someone jumps between singular person past tense and present tense 499 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: is missing information. And right at that moment where they 500 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: start jumping between tenses, that's when I'll go in and 501 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: I'll question further because there's inconsistencies in this story. 502 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 4: All right, So when you said that, like you big 503 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 4: mannerisms and body languages are like changing and stuff like that. 504 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,239 Speaker 4: So I am known on the internet to have a 505 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 4: pretty big, resting bitch face. There's not a lot of 506 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 4: emotion that goes on there, or I constantly look quite discouraged. Yes, 507 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 4: And like when I'm talking and I'm like, I say, oh, 508 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 4: it's because I'm actively listening, I catch myself frowning and 509 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 4: like looking quite to be honest. 510 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 2: Disgusted and angry in what they're saying. 511 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 4: But it's just because I'm like trying to process what's 512 00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 4: going on in what they're saying. 513 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 2: Can you would you say that? That's like a deception, 514 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 2: like what would you. 515 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: No, that's more an evaluation gesture, because what happens is 516 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: if you're listening to somebody, technically you're not lying. Remember 517 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: what I said before, A lies where you willfully mislead somebody. 518 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: You know. A great example is if you're not talking, technically, 519 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 1: you're not lying. So if you're listening, you may disagree 520 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: with what they're saying, and your facial expressions may display that, 521 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: but that's very different from deliberately intentionally lying and knowing 522 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,199 Speaker 1: that what you're saying is wrong or incoract right. So 523 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: you may to use your saying look like a resting 524 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: bitch face or something. But the point there is is 525 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 1: if you're normally like that, I want to look for 526 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 1: deviations or changes from that, right. 527 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 2: So that's what that's my baseline. 528 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: Correct, You've got nothing to measure the game, So let 529 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: me give an example. I've already baselined you anyway. So 530 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: here's what I'm going to get you to do. Do 531 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: you think you're a good light? 532 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 2: I would say I'm pretty. 533 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: Good, okay, okay. Out of one hundred, what would you 534 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 1: give yourself. 535 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 2: Seventy maybe? Okay, oh, seventy. I'm going to go with seventy. 536 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: You're going to go with seventy? 537 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, it depends what it's about. 538 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: Okay. So what I'm going to do. I do a 539 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: lot of public speaking. I'll get people on stage. I'm 540 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 1: going to do what I usually do with you today. 541 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 3: You do me next. 542 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, so let me ask you now. I want you 543 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 1: to be one hundred percent truthful now, and there'll be 544 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: a reason. 545 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 2: Right, Okay, So I have to tell the truth one. 546 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 1: Hundred percent because and you'll see why in a minute, 547 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 1: because I'm going to draw your attention what you do 548 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 1: and you won't even realize you're doing it. Okay, all right, 549 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 1: So be truthful to start with. Okay, I want you 550 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: to tell me what you did this morning from the 551 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 1: time you woke up, excluding personal issues, until the time 552 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: you got to the studio. Now, hang on before we 553 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:57,880 Speaker 1: go on as much information, content, structure, and detail as possible. Yep. 554 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,199 Speaker 4: So I slept through my alarm, so I miss my 555 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 4: pilates and I was a bit upset by that. 556 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:02,880 Speaker 1: What time did you set your alarm? 557 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 4: Clatform seven fifteen? And then I woke up at eight, 558 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 4: so I went. 559 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: Did you sleep through your alarm? 560 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 2: I consciously turned it off? 561 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: Okay? 562 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 563 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 4: And then I got a coffee and went to the 564 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 4: gym and walked on the treadmill, went home. 565 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: Gym, did you go do? Okay? 566 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 4: And then I picked up some groceries, went home, got 567 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,360 Speaker 4: ready at breakfast, and then made a TikTok, And now 568 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 4: I'm here, gove here. 569 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,679 Speaker 1: What I want you to do this time is I 570 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: want you to be really creative, okay, and I want 571 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: you look super duper creative. And I want you to 572 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: make up a complete, full story about what you did 573 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: this morning, like I mean everything in it. Yeah, because 574 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: usually what you find when I get people to do this, 575 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: what they'll do is they'll take truthful pieces and entwine 576 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: it with pieces that are not true. Okay, So what 577 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: I want you to do, be quiet, creative here and 578 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: tell me story. But I want you to make it 579 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,959 Speaker 1: sound believable. So I don't want you say you went 580 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: to New York and back. No one's going to believe that, right, Okay, 581 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: But as much content, structure, information in detail. 582 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 2: So this morning I actually didn't wake up. 583 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to stop you as we go. 584 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 2: Fucked it right then? 585 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: Okay, But but here this is the only way we learn, right. 586 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 3: So are you teaching us to lie? 587 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: The first thing? It's really interesting because I'm not too 588 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: sure if the viewers will pick this up, but the 589 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: very first thing you did as soon as you started 590 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: was your right shoulder did that shrug? Remember I was 591 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: talking about the shoulder shrug. Watch your back and you'll 592 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: say it. Trust me. Okay, keep going, but I'm just 593 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: going to just keep making it. Okay, there you did 594 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: it again. You weren't doing that before. 595 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 2: Okay, because I know that you guys are all going 596 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 2: to know. So it's the anticipation that you guys are 597 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 2: wondering what I'm going to say this morning. 598 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: I actually okay, now there just on that. But I 599 00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: think this is important because this is a good way 600 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: picking things up now the whole since we started. Not 601 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: once did you use the word actually. I'll see this 602 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: a lot right Often as humans, we don't like pregnant pauses, 603 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: and we don't like gaps in our conversation. So what 604 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: happened was it's like arms and rs. So when people 605 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: substitute words for unnecessary or superfous, superfluous fillers, then that's 606 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: a red flag for me, because why would you say 607 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: I actually? You just say I did okay, okay, unless 608 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: you were saying actually before, then that's part of you. 609 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 4: I was meant to say, actually, Well, I didn't wake 610 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 4: up at my house. I woke up at my boyfriend's house, 611 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 4: and then he went straight up to work. 612 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: You've got to watch your shoulder, your should is really interesting, 613 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: and your right foot. Okay, so here, here's what's happening. 614 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: You're so focused on delivering the story you're paying absolutely 615 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: no attention what your body's doing. 616 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 617 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: Probably, no, definitely Okay. So, no matter how easy people 618 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: think it is to lie, And I've interviewed clinically diagnosed 619 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: psychopaths for homicidecosis, and there is still some telltale science. 620 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: And the difference is you or I. The word psychopathy 621 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: is one of the most misunderstood words in the English language. 622 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: People think all psychopaths go out and kill people. That's 623 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: not the case. I guarantee you you either have friends 624 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: or you've worked with people who have psychopathic behaviors. 625 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 3: Which I agree. 626 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 1: What's the definition of a psychopath somebody who's recklessly oblivious 627 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: to the physical emotional harm they cause their victims. So 628 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: let's just say all three of us are going for 629 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: a job interview, and I am clinically diagnosed as a psychopath. 630 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: I'm going to do whatever it takes to get the job. 631 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: I'm going to destroy you in the process, but I'm 632 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: going to get it. I don't care about you. I 633 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: have no empathy. I have no emotions, I have no remorse. 634 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: I don't care about you. I will get that job. 635 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: It doesn't necessarily mean I go out and kill people. 636 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: So even with clinically diagnosed psychopaths, and there was a 637 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: study done in the US where they had and midtedly 638 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: it was a very small control sample. They had twelve 639 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: clinically diagnosed psychopaths in the jail population, and they said, 640 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: this is what we want you to do. We want 641 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: to see if you can beat a polygraph test. Now, 642 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: a polygraph works on if a person consciously decides they're 643 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: going to lie to a question, they become fearful of 644 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: being caught in that line, and that's what innovates and 645 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 1: activates changes in our autonomic nervous system. So we see 646 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: changes in heart rate, blood pressure, blood volume, emotional sweating, 647 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: and sol respiratory patterns. So the question becomes a threatening stimulus. 648 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: Our fight or flight response system kicks in and we 649 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: see changes, which is great technology, but it's old technology, 650 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: I guess, whereas now we've got artificial intelligence and so on. 651 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: So the question in that case becomes the threatening stimulus. 652 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: But I guess the argument is, what if somebody's nervous. 653 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: So I often say you don't need a polygraph to 654 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: work out whether or not somebody's lying. You need to 655 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: have good observational skills because and also you need to 656 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: be a good question ask I can teach anyone in 657 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 1: half a day how to be a good question asker. 658 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 1: But what I teach people is not how to ask questions, 659 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: but how to be andlests of human behavior. That's the difference. 660 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 3: Quick question. I'm not sure if this is entirely relevant. 661 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 3: What's the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath? 662 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, so psychopath really has very little feelings or remorse 663 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: or emotion. They simply don't care what they do through 664 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: the victims, whereas sociopaths a little bit different because sometimes 665 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: you're also see narcissistic behaviors in that behavior. So, do 666 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: you have any friends or you know anyone and there 667 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: are was lying about the simplest, smallest things. Yes, And 668 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,959 Speaker 1: you know they're lying. Everyone else knows they're lying. But 669 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: it's what they do. But often it will be for 670 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: a different reason. It will be to be liked, it 671 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: will be to gain attention. That's more sociopathic than psychopathic, 672 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: and the psychopathic checklist, which was designed to look for 673 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 1: certain behavioral traits, really focus on the fact that there's 674 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: no empathy, remorse, feeling, or emotions. 675 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 3: So that's traits of psychopaths, not sociopaths. 676 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 1: Right, So we've all had contact with people who have 677 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 1: lied to us straight to our face in relationships. Is 678 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: a great example someone having a fleeing or an affair 679 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: or whatever one of the things you I don't know 680 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: if you want to know the answer to this. 681 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 2: But to catch someone on cheating, well yeah. 682 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, firstly, usually you'll find there'll be behaviors that 683 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,839 Speaker 1: people don't pick up, so running out and texting in 684 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 1: the backyard when you're sitting with your partner, you know, 685 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 1: not answering phone calls, or when the question is asked, 686 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: are you cheating? Am I cheating? Why would I be cheating? 687 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: What's missing there? That's an objection, not a denial. Truthful 688 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: people are very clear, concise and upfront when they deny. No, 689 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: I don't no, I haven't no. He has been a 690 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,760 Speaker 1: direct answer I didn't mean, meaning using a personal pronoun, 691 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:11,839 Speaker 1: exonerating themselves from that behavior. But also there's always some 692 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: sort of evidence. So I remember a couple coming to 693 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: my office and the boyfriend received naked photos of this 694 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 1: girl on his phone, and his partner found those and 695 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 1: she said, well, how did they get there? So we're 696 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: not having an affair? But I asked, well, it's technically 697 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 1: still cheating, isn't it emotional? It depends which way you 698 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: want to view it. So all the signs were there, 699 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: you know, all these flirtatious, secting text messages and all 700 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: that sort of stuff together with the photos, and yet 701 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: she didn't want to believe that a partner was cheating. 702 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,399 Speaker 1: He was very adept at looking astraight in the eye 703 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: and lying. So you know, it's asking the right questions 704 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 1: and believe it or not. I wrote a chapter in 705 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: one of my books about your feel ninety percent of 706 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 1: your time. The time when you get a gut fill, 707 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,279 Speaker 1: you're pretty close. I just teach people to put a 708 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,839 Speaker 1: methodology behind that gut fill, which is what to look 709 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 1: for verbal, nonverbal, paralinguistic. We haven't spoken about paralinguistics, so okay, 710 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 1: I can lie with words at our body language. We 711 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: need to look for conflict or contradiction between what we're 712 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:27,399 Speaker 1: saying and what we're doing. Secondly, paralinguistic style means how 713 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 1: the message is communicated. There could be arms, nahs, responslate 714 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: and see tone, pitch, voice modulation. If you listen really carefully, 715 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 1: when somebody feels uncomfortable, their pitch and their tone will change. 716 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,359 Speaker 1: You do that twice. So what will happen is their 717 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 1: tone will change. And sometimes it might be something is 718 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: why would I do that shoulder shrug? But also tone 719 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: change together with they look at changes in body language 720 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,840 Speaker 1: and stuff. And usually if I'm sitting close enough, I 721 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,800 Speaker 1: can't see from here, but our pupils will rapidly dilate 722 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: when we're being deceptive. And in fact, we also know 723 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,320 Speaker 1: through research that our blink rate increases six to eightfold 724 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 1: after the delivery of the deception. Now think about that 725 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,319 Speaker 1: for a second. So somebody's lying to you, they'll look 726 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:16,839 Speaker 1: you in the eye and then all of a sudden 727 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: they'll tell their story and then they'll do this and 728 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 1: like blink like yeah, indicative of relief. So believe it 729 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:26,279 Speaker 1: or not. And I say this all the time. People 730 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 1: ask me this question all the time. Do liars look 731 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: away or often? Research shows this it's the opposite. What 732 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: they'll do is they'll tell the story, and they'll stare 733 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: you down. Why because I want to see whether or 734 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 1: not they think that you are believing what they're saying. Right, So, 735 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: if you do this, they're going to pick it up 736 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: because you know, an interview is a two way process. 737 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: If I'm interviewing you for whatever, you want to know 738 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: what information I have about you, and I want to 739 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,280 Speaker 1: know information that you have that you may not disclass 740 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: So the only way that's going to happen is by 741 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: asking good, direct, probing questions. Yeah, where's go last night? 742 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: I went out? Where'd you go? What time do you leave? 743 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: All that sort of stuff, Because then if a they're 744 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 1: being evasive, sidestepping the issue, not answering the question, that's 745 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 1: a red flag right there. Secondly, they start accusing you 746 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 1: of behavior that you weren't even involved in, they're deflicting. 747 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,720 Speaker 1: That's red flag number two. Number three. Their body language 748 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: is inconsistent with the spoken word. It just goes on 749 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: and on. Micro expressions, distress signals, the blocking behaviors, excluding 750 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,320 Speaker 1: themselves out of the narrative. I remember one particular case 751 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 1: as a homicide, and I ran a training course in 752 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: the journalist was going to do an interview, what they 753 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,800 Speaker 1: call a doorstop interview with the suspect and she wrings 754 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:46,239 Speaker 1: me out and she says, Steve, what should I ask it? 755 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,319 Speaker 1: I said, ask him directly if he murdered his wife 756 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 1: and daughter, and she did and he said, I never 757 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: harmed my wife or my daughter. What he didn't do 758 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,320 Speaker 1: was answer the question. The question was very clear, concise, 759 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 1: and specific. He answered the question he wanted to answer, 760 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 1: not what the interview asked. A great example is a 761 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 1: case that I worked on and what had happened was 762 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 1: the mother of the child I went missing and the 763 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 1: de facto boyfriend fronted up to a media conference. And 764 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: that is a goldmine for me because I'm looking for 765 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 1: emotions in the right place. And I got a phone 766 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: call from one of the detectives and said, what do 767 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 1: you think. I said, she's one hundred The boyfriend is 768 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,359 Speaker 1: one hundred percent lying and what he did, and this 769 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: is before they found the girl. He said, you know, 770 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 1: she was such a wonderful child. Was is past tense. 771 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: If you ever speak to a parent who said their 772 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 1: child abducted, they will never ever talk in past tense. 773 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,759 Speaker 1: Why because the host their child will be returned to 774 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 1: live safe and well. I mean, even now, if I 775 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 1: speak to families who have loved ones gone missing or 776 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: missing persons, they will always talk in present tense because 777 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,880 Speaker 1: the hope of the anticipation, of expectation is they'll be 778 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: returned to live safe mine out of curiosity. 779 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,840 Speaker 3: If you're like at home on your couch watching the 780 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,239 Speaker 3: news and you notice that an interview about some sort 781 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 3: of crime comes up, will you kind of watch it, 782 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:11,839 Speaker 3: monitor it, and if you think they're lying, will you 783 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,279 Speaker 3: call someone up and be like, hey, guys, I think 784 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 3: they're lying that. 785 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 1: It depends on what it is. I mean, if it's 786 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: something like a current affair with every second person. 787 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,359 Speaker 3: I think, if it's a crime like what happens is. 788 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,279 Speaker 1: The homicide squad or police department will contact me and 789 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 1: they'll say, listen, we've got a record of interview. Can 790 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,760 Speaker 1: we get you either to do an interview or behavior 791 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: analysis interview, which is my specialty, or can we get 792 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: you to analyze the statements made in say rape statement 793 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,759 Speaker 1: to see whether or it's a real report of a 794 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:46,440 Speaker 1: real rape or a fabricated right. Usually I look for 795 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:51,440 Speaker 1: certain pronouns. Usually in rapes, the victim will create distance, 796 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 1: disassociation and separation, in language. He made me do this, 797 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,239 Speaker 1: He made me do that. Sometimes you may see we 798 00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: did this, we did that. We denotes a degree of 799 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 1: agreen which is usually inconsistent. But also I get them 800 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,840 Speaker 1: to write a narrative of what happened over the timeframe 801 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 1: and usually depends on the person that will either include 802 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 1: information or exclude information. Usually I find children make the 803 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 1: best witnesses. 804 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,919 Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much Steve for joining us on 805 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 4: the Tuesday episode. Steve will also be joining us on 806 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,239 Speaker 4: Our Girl's Guide to tell us how to detect when 807 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 4: our partner is lying. Possibly some little things here, so 808 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 4: make sure you guys tune into those day's episode to 809 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 4: hear about that. 810 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 3: Will chat to you them. 811 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 2: Bye.