WEBVTT - Episode 2: War of the Winfields 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.680 Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwan contains coarse 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:08.840 language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:34.600 you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:44.479 I met Jody and she was adorable and needed a 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:47.319 mother who loved her, so everything was going to work 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:50.639 out well. I would look after Jody in Crystal and 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:52.519 he would be the perfect husband. 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:57.240 At the beginning of their relationship, it must have seemed 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:03.040 an ideal match. John sir, fit handsome single dad aged thirty, 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:07.880 Bromwin a strikingly attractive, slender and deeply committed single mum 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:12.160 of twenty three. They had shared interest from having grown 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:16.039 up in the same area of Sydney. Many rusted on 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:21.000 residents say that it's God's country. They insist Kronella's beaches 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:24.760 are better and the lifestyle slower, easier than in Sydney's 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:30.080 eastern suburbs. John's daughter Jodi, was twelve and being raised 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:33.399 largely by her grandparents in the Shire when Bromwyn and 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:37.600 John got together in nineteen eighty five. At that time, 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:41.959 Bronwyn was a full time mum to Crystal, age two. 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:45.600 We moved to South Crenella behind a milkbar. John moved in. 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:48.000 I found out I was pregnant and we married a 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:50.160 few months before Lauren was born in Ballina. 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:54.960 Broman's brother Andy Reid, has taken a day off work 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:58.000 as a construction manager to meet me for several hours 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:02.520 of recorded interviews. In his his wife Michelle is by 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:06.559 his side. Andy and Michelle met on the Famed Hill 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:09.920 near the old Doug Walters stand at the Sydney Cricket Ground. 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:14.880 Andy has kept some history about his older sister Bottled Up. 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:18.480 He confides that he has felt guilty for many years 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:21.720 over things he had done and not done for Bromwin 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:26.080 when she needed help. Has she been the big sister 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:29.480 who's been more inclined to look after you or vice versa. 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:33.079 Oh, she was always there for me and always there 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:33.360 for me. 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:36.800 I moved out of home at a reason early age 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:40.320 New Year Zoo. When I was nineteen. I got blown 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:43.600 up by a bonfire. Someone had doused the buddy thinking 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:45.480 petrol and not told me and asked for someone to 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:47.560 light the bonfire, and I lit it and woke up. 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:49.960 She went and up I went with it. I stayed 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:52.959 with Braun for a couple of weeks. She was nursing 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:56.519 me back to health and changing bandages. And she was 0:02:56.639 --> 0:03:00.320 very nurturing, always part of my life. And she need 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:04.800 a hand to. Dad used to call a concert pitch 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:08.600 a highly strung needed support. 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:11.280 Loved someone to be there for her as well. But 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:12.880 she was also there for you. 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:17.160 Had you heard Roman in the past saying, I can't 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:18.600 handle this, the kids are just. 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:20.560 Driving me crazy and I've got to get away. 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:24.560 Never. Never, Roman was just so dating. Those kids were 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:25.000 her life. 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:27.200 Did she ever take a break away from a children? 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:28.120 No. 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:29.519 Never. 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:33.160 To give you a little bit of insight into Bromwin's 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:41.280 motherly nature, Jodie was actually raised by John Winfield's parents, 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:45.200 so Bromwin brought and asked John to bring Jodie out 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:47.920 of that environment into their environment to be part of 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:51.240 the family. The first time she lived in a family 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:53.720 or environment was at the little house down at South 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:56.760 Kronola where Jadie had actually moved in with John and 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:59.640 Bromwin and moved into the house down there. 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:02.520 That's the type of person Bromin was. 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:07.160 Michelle recalls meeting Bromwin at the time of the birth 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:08.840 of Lauren, her second daughter. 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:11.920 We got on will Yeah, she was great. She was 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:17.920 a lovely person, a beautiful mum, spoke kindly to the kids, 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:23.880 was caring, looked after them. They were always beautifully presented. 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:28.440 And how would you describe the relationship between her and 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:30.200 John at that time? 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:33.520 From what you saw, John was the type of person 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:37.440 who was always he was doing his own thing. He 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:42.640 often went surfing, did that a lot. If we were there, 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:46.279 he'd come in, he'd say the hi, how are you 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:50.159 kind of thing? Nothing in depth. I don't remember anything 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:54.400 in depth with John, and they need zay on going 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:57.400 for a surf. He was always one of those in 0:04:57.480 --> 0:04:59.159 and out, Hi, how are you going? 0:04:59.279 --> 0:04:59.479 Yeah? 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:04.120 In and out, in and out. He wasn't always around. 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:08.200 I often begged him to spend more time with us, 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:11.159 as I had postnatal depression after having Lauren and didn't 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:15.560 have anyone around to help. Never ever met very many 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:17.400 of the people he worked with, or any of the 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:21.120 people he went down the coast with. His mother hated 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:24.080 the fact that I had heard John so never looked 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:27.920 after Lauren or any of the girls. I was dreadfully lonely, 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.520 but never complained too much as he was always tired 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:34.520 from working. In the end, I threw myself into looking 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:35.440 after the children. 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:41.560 I know when we would visit there, like we'd go 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:43.280 to have a cup of tea or something, and she'd 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:49.080 open up the cupboards and she'd make comments like, oh, yeah, 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:54.239 I can only afford to buy generic food and tins 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:57.000 and stuff like that. He only gives me sixty dollars 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:01.120 a week. I knew that John was a person who 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:04.080 ran the house. 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:08.080 I found it harder to cope with Lauren's sleepless nights 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:11.720 and John never being around, but I slowly became friends 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:14.440 with a few people, and I then joined playgroup and 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:18.320 met heaps of great people. Unfortunately, John didn't want to 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:21.400 socialize at all, so I started to go out and 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:25.159 do things for myself. Playgroup and the people I met 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:27.640 there kept me amused and gave me time for myself. 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:30.359 I also had enough time for the children. 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:35.000 I went to see Bromwin's friend from the nineteen nineties, 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:39.600 Denise Barnard, at her home in Lenox, his years recalling 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:40.960 that time of their lives. 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:42.240 Well. 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:44.719 I was in the playgroup as a secretary. She was 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:47.240 the president, and she would often come to my home 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:51.000 because I couldn't go to hers. John was quite antisocial, 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:54.200 didn't like having people there because they might make a mess. 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:59.120 He had a very i'd say, like an OCD almost 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:00.200 about the us. 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:03.320 She told you that, didn't she? 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:07.320 Yeah, yeah, but I did witness it as well. Crystal 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:10.320 had spilt the lemonade and the floor, and Browin had 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:13.000 got down and was cleaning it up with a toothbrush. 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:15.520 And John came in to say what to be spilled 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:17.760 on the floor, and Broman said she'd done it. She 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:20.400 didn't want him going off a crystal. She told me 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:24.840 this very particular with the house. He'd done some work 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:25.760 for us at our house. 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:29.280 Was there any problem with John's work? 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:34.200 He's an amazing bricklayer, is he? Yeah? Yeah, he's a 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:39.320 very very talented tradesman. My husband's very particular and John 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:40.200 had that skill. 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:44.720 You'll hear more from Denise later in this episode. 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:47.680 If there was anything out of place in the house, 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:52.320 it would be a big argument. If anyone spilt anything 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:54.760 on the floor, she would have to get down and 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:57.720 scrub it up, because if John felt a sticky bit 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:01.560 on the floor, he'd go off his brain. A very 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:03.320 volatile type of person. 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:06.960 Those things you're talking about in relation to spills and 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:11.600 so on, are they what you witnessed or heard her talking. 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:13.760 About Honey, what she'd told us? 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:17.520 When did you become aware that there were serious tensions 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:22.000 in their relationship? Michelle is the first to acknowledge that 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:25.800 even close relatives never really know for sure what is 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:28.360 going on in another couple's marriage. 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:32.240 What you see on the outside isn't always what's happening 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:35.680 on the inside. Is it what happens behind closed doors 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:39.040 in someone's house. The only people who can really tell 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:43.360 you about that is Broman, and she can't and John, 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:43.760 and he. 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:50.080 Wrote perhaps the relationship was always doomed. Michelle believes she 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:52.640 can put her finger on one of the most distressing 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:57.640 and serious catalysts for it to go irretrievably bad. Roman 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:01.160 was living with John in Sandstone Present when she told 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:04.120 Michelle and Andy that she had wanted to have a 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:05.000 third child. 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:09.240 She'd become pregnant. She'd wanted to keep the child, and 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:12.880 John didn't want to. John had just lost his mum 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:19.640 and he was particularly close to his mother and he 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:24.920 wasn't coping with that. He insisted she have an abortion. 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:26.199 He didn't want any more kids. 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:32.040 Bromwin told other friends about this. They have shared their recollections, 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:37.000 and the accounts are consistent is Deb Hall from next door. 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:42.959 She fell pregnant and she was really torn. He did 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:46.440 not want another child. She wanted another baby, she loved kids. 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:49.320 She didn't go ahead with it, but I know she 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:53.280 struggled big time over that, as you would. 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:55.719 That kind of like to me was the catalyst of 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:56.479 their marriage. 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:58.240 And I thought, you know what, you've got to get 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:01.120 away from this guy if you're that miserable when he's controlling. 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:05.120 And I did used to say to her when you know, 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:08.160 when she'd had her crying sessions about him down here, 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:10.120 and I say, Rowin, you can't. 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:12.000 Live like this. You've got to get away from him. 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:14.120 Oh but I've got nowhere to go, and I'll have 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:17.120 no money. And that went on for a while. 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:21.960 Romman's medical records show that she became pregnant in the 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:25.800 second half of November nineteen ninety brow. 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:28.800 Being the type of person that she is, well, she 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:34.959 loved kids. Having the abortion was probably heartbreaking for her, 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:41.520 and for him to have insisted on it then that 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:43.840 would have been another nail in the coffin, so to speak, 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:45.600 on their marriage. 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:49.439 How would you describe her level of distress over that? 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:51.360 It was a hard time. 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:57.840 That was stressful for everybody. And that's when in that 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:02.319 conversation she had said to me again, if anything ever 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:07.440 happened to her, would I would we make sure that 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:11.280 Crystal was looked after? Would we look after Crystal? 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:16.520 You never saw any signs of physical assault or bruising 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:17.280 on Romwin. 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:24.640 No, I can't say that we did, but we weren't 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:31.480 living nearby anymore. They'd moved to lennex Head. One day 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:38.040 Jody came around to visit. Mitchell was little and he 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:44.800 was just born. I was asking Jody how everyone was. 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:49.120 I instigated a bit of talk about Romwin and John 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:53.080 and she had been living up there and then I 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:57.320 know she went up and down fairly regularly, so she 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:00.160 saw them a lot more than we did. I said, 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:04.560 tod ever, argue like, was there ever any arguments and 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:08.280 stuff like that? And she said, oh, I remember one 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:12.840 day Brumbell was sitting in a chair and he picked 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:15.760 her up in the chair and dropped it with her 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:20.080 in it. That was an argument they were having. And 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:23.319 I was quite really surprised, like I hadn't. 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:24.800 Heard stuff like that before. 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:29.800 And I had written that down, of course, And that 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:32.960 was in nineteen ninety three, and when that was brought 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:36.480 up at the inquest. She couldn't recall having said that 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.840 or denied it one or the other. Crystal used to 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:45.800 say that there was lots of yelling and arguing. I 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:49.160 know Bromwan wasn't allowed to look sideways at anybody. He 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:50.360 was a jealous person. 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:18.640 In her writing in nineteen ninety three, Bromwin refers to 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:22.120 a platonic friendship she forged with a single dad and 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:26.040 his child. They were housemates for a time shortly before 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:28.360 John and Bromwin started seeing each other. 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:33.320 A genuinely nice man, but he was a friend. Wonder 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:35.480 how they're going, as John would have had a fit 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:37.960 if I'd rung to see how they were going. He 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:41.080 would have thought there was something going on, paranoia. 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:43.160 Here's deb Hall. 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:46.839 When I first met from them, they were building the 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:50.160 house next door and I was at the front here 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:54.000 on my veranda, and she came down to introduce them. Yeah, 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:56.920 we got chatting them him and welcome to the neighborhood. 0:13:57.280 --> 0:13:57.880 We were chatting. 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:00.240 We had things in common, we had kids and the 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.160 same age. She was about the same age as me. 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:07.280 But whilst I was talking to her, she kind of 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:13.600 broke down and I hadn't met her before, and she 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:14.560 started to cry. 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:17.320 She said, I've just got some things going on with 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:20.040 my husband. And I thought, no, I don't even know you. 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:22.360 And that struck me and I went, oh. 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:23.840 There's anything I can do. 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:24.600 Let me know. 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:27.200 She didn't sort of elaborate, and I didn't kind of 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:28.760 push the agenda, and. 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:29.280 Then she went. 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:31.880 When they moved into the house, we got to know 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:32.920 each other very well. 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:34.560 She would be here a lot. 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:37.120 The reason she would be at my house was because 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:41.280 John would not allow anyone to come to their house. 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:44.280 John was an absolute neat freak. I mean you could 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:47.160 eat off the floor, nothing was out of place, and 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:50.240 Rowan was neat. But she wanted a house to we 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.160 lived in. They had kids, so I had four kids, 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:55.440 but they were never allowed in the house. If they 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:56.880 went up there to play, they had to play in 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:59.840 the garage. But quite often she would offload to me 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:02.720 about him. How you know, he wouldn't let her have 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:03.640 this and wouldn't let. 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:03.960 Her do that. 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.720 When I ever I spoke to him, it would always 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:11.240 just be polite conversation. I think they came down here 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:13.680 once or twice and had a dream. But Roman would 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:15.040 come down here all the time we sit and have 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:16.240 coffee for hours. 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:21.360 In early nineteen ninety Michelle and Andy were newly weird 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:25.600 and holidaying in Queensland for their honeymoon. They decided to 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:28.280 stop in at Lennox Head on the drive back to 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:30.320 Sydney to see Andy's. 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:34.440 Sister and Roman and the kids weren't there. Only John was, 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:38.440 and we kind of thought, oh, that's crazy, where are they? 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:43.760 And he said, ah, they're in Sydney having a holiday. 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:47.520 I think was he said. We found out later that 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:53.520 heat up and left Uncle John's house, which is Andrew's uncle, 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:58.200 and left them there and taken himself back to Lenox Head. 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.200 There'd been some sort of ish and that was probably 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:04.640 I don't know, I suppose when I first started to think, oh, 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:06.320 let's be crazy, like who does that. 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:11.400 There was another incident remembered by the Reed family and 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:15.880 cited as evidence of John having a callous disregard for Bromwin. 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:20.600 Bromin's uncle John and Auntie Leah were hosting Bromwin and 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:24.280 John Winfield with their young children overnight in the Reed 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:30.400 home in Sydney. It was Christmas nineteen ninety two. 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:32.880 And he said he was going to Newcastle to look 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:35.360 at a car, and I said, you're going to be 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:39.480 back for dinner, and oh, yes, yes. We cooked dinner 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:43.280 and waited and waited and he hadn't turned up. And 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.080 I said to bromin about half us nine ten, do 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:48.120 you think he's coming back? And she did, no, I 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:51.640 don't think he is. And she was left here and 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:55.760 we were going overseas within a couple of days. We 0:16:55.880 --> 0:17:00.240 gave him money and we had nobody around here could 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:03.800 help him. That time. When he didn't come back, she 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:06.480 indicated that they were having problems. 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:08.200 It was really strong, and it. 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:12.399 Was his father that came and picked her up and 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:17.240 drove her back up to home. Obviously John had taken 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:20.439 off and had no intention of coming back and picking 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:20.720 her up. 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:26.320 Ronman's cousin Megan Reid, says she was there and that 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:30.840 the occasion was a lunch on Boxing Day, December twenty six, 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:35.520 not at dinner, as remembered by her mother, Leah Bosting. 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:39.159 Day was to read Christmas poets. 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:40.080 The whole turkey and all the rest. 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:42.080 Of it, and so Bonn went and the family, they 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:44.879 were all there. He never would have thought anything was wrong, 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:48.239 no fight for whatever, and he said he'd be back 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:50.920 by one day, two o'clock for lunch. Well, he never 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:53.480 showed up, and it wasn't sure. About nine hours later 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:55.639 that we found it out he was back at lenach Shad, 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:57.359 but he just choldn't back. 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:00.480 But what was his explanation for just taking. 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:03.400 Oh, there wasn't one. We never got an explanation. 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:07.000 Where were gobsmacked perfectly honest. Mom and dad didn't know 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.680 what to do, and John refused point blank to pay 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:12.520 for them to be flown home. But this is the 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:15.320 second occurrence, very very strange. 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:17.360 At the end, I'm going to tell you. 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:21.639 The first time was when Andrew got married January nineteen ninety. 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:22.960 Woman came down. 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:24.800 In fact, the photo is the police used were the 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:27.560 ones I took for her in the purple dress. But 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:29.879 he went back to learn i'd set again. So that 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:32.560 was the first time he did it. Roman It ended 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:34.000 up staying for quite some time. 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:37.040 Both times, here's Michelle again. 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:43.280 She would bring up. She would be saying that things like, oh, 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:46.960 I'm not very happy, I'm not happy with John and 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:52.000 stuff like that. I'm thinking about moving out and we 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:54.480 had a baby. I said to her, well, do you 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:56.560 want to move back to Sydney like, I can help 0:18:56.600 --> 0:19:01.600 you try and find somewhere to live, and she'd say, 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:02.760 I can't afford to do that. 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:03.800 I've got no money. 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:07.639 And then she'd say, you know, if anything ever happens 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:09.920 to me, will you promise me you'll look after Crystal, 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:17.439 particularly Crystal, because Crystal was not John's genetic child whereas 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:22.280 Lauren was. She kind of felt that John would look 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:24.679 after his own more than he would look after Crystal, 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:31.320 which rang through in the end. We would discuss what 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:35.440 was happening, and we even thought, oh, we can't even 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:37.280 really put them up here. We're in a little three 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:41.359 bedroom home. We had hardly any room to fit another 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:46.560 person and two kids. Another time she rang up and 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:50.560 she was unhappy and was talking about leaving him again, 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:56.040 and said again the next time about looking after the 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:59.240 kids if anything ever happened to me. She never ever 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:04.280 said straight out, oh, I think John's going to do 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:08.399 something to me. That never got said. It just got implied. 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:13.760 When she was saying, where's the effect if something happens 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:14.000 to me? 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:17.760 I guess There's a couple of different ways you can 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:21.560 interpret that. She may self harm. For example, she might 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:22.320 have a health. 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:27.200 Issue, or she may be fearful of a partner. Do 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:30.560 you recall what you took from it at that time? 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:39.040 Oh, definitely fearful. We knew she wasn't unwill she would 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:45.639 never leave her kids. She loved those kids wholeheartedly, like 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:49.280 everything for her. It was fear. It was fear of John. 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:51.280 I just knew that. 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:56.040 Why do you think she didn't actually express that bluntly? 0:20:57.240 --> 0:21:01.080 Maybe her fear of him find out out she'd said that. 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:07.480 Michelle recalls Broman telling her about John's volatility and his 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:11.840 intolerance for visitors in his house, his castle. 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:16.800 He didn't want anyone there. He didn't want her having friends. 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:20.199 A really strange bloat. 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:21.879 Andy. 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:25.960 Around this time, when Robin was telling you. 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:30.720 About her troubles in the marriage, you were counseling her 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:35.520 to try to work things through and keep a marriage intact. 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:39.159 Do you remember that I was doing my best to 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:42.680 sort of advise Brian to do her best to see 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:44.320 if she could work through it. 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:48.440 She had a previous marriage. 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:51.560 I knew John was very controlling, you know, with money 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:54.199 and all the rest of it. She was on that 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:56.639 tide of budget that she used to hand so all 0:21:56.680 --> 0:22:00.000 the kids, little dressed, little summer dresses and things like that. 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:02.840 But I was just sort of doing my best to 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:06.400 see if she tried everything before she threw the town 0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:09.680 in Tremerally, people have probably got this very talle that 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:11.600 you're going to meet someone and you have your first 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:14.320 kiss and lost a better roses for the rest of 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:17.280 your life, like a good marriage, you're a long lasting 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:20.160 marriage or something that's worked at and you just need 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:22.440 to be good mates and good friends and support each 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:25.160 other and that sort of thing. So I was sort 0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:30.640 of adamant that after witnessing sort of the upbringing I had, 0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:34.959 I thought it's a good idea for Bronda, maybe at 0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:35.879 least try. 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:37.040 As much as she could. 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:43.080 But Debhall knew that a reconciliation was pointless, if not impossible. 0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:47.399 To my astonishment, one day, she and I can't remember 0:22:47.400 --> 0:22:50.080 exactly when it was, but she told me she was 0:22:50.119 --> 0:22:52.679 going to leave him. And I said, oh, okay, well 0:22:52.680 --> 0:22:54.239 where are you going to go? And she said, I've 0:22:54.320 --> 0:22:57.720 organized the place down in Lennox. I said, well that's good. 0:22:58.240 --> 0:23:01.200 I said, well, you know what is John thing. Well, 0:23:01.240 --> 0:23:03.280 he's agreeable to it, and I'm. 0:23:03.080 --> 0:23:06.359 Going to move down there, and so she did. I 0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:07.200 did visit her there. 0:23:07.240 --> 0:23:07.920 She got a dog. 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:10.439 The kids always wanted a puppy, and then she thought, well, 0:23:10.440 --> 0:23:11.520 I'm going to get him a puppy. 0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:14.000 And I used to think, oh, she's really branching out, 0:23:14.040 --> 0:23:16.000 you know, she's really and she had a job at 0:23:16.040 --> 0:23:19.280 the cafe down there, and she was sort of getting 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:21.159