1 00:00:03,870 --> 00:00:06,960 Jennifer Duke: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Jennifer 2 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:10,110 Jennifer Duke: Duke. Today's interview is of particular interest to me as 3 00:00:10,110 --> 00:00:12,570 Jennifer Duke: an economics journalist because I've used the product that we're 4 00:00:12,570 --> 00:00:15,690 Jennifer Duke: speaking about, but it's also an example of a fantastic 5 00:00:15,690 --> 00:00:18,780 Jennifer Duke: Australian success story, a story of a company being built 6 00:00:18,780 --> 00:00:21,659 Jennifer Duke: from the ground up, identifying a need, meeting that need, 7 00:00:21,660 --> 00:00:24,810 Jennifer Duke: and then being acquired. So Market Index is a website 8 00:00:24,810 --> 00:00:27,569 Jennifer Duke: that serves as a portal to the Australian stock market. 9 00:00:27,570 --> 00:00:31,229 Jennifer Duke: It provides share prices, research tools, ASX news and more. 10 00:00:31,559 --> 00:00:34,260 Jennifer Duke: It was launched in 2014 and less than a decade 11 00:00:34,260 --> 00:00:38,460 Jennifer Duke: later has grown to almost 700, 000 monthly users. Late last 12 00:00:38,460 --> 00:00:41,159 Jennifer Duke: year the platform was acquired by market analysis and news 13 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,610 Jennifer Duke: site, Livewire Markets, and we love remarkable stories at Fear 14 00:00:44,610 --> 00:00:46,949 Jennifer Duke: and Greed and this is definitely one of them. Matthew 15 00:00:46,950 --> 00:00:49,650 Jennifer Duke: Gabriele is the founder of Market Index and now executive 16 00:00:49,650 --> 00:00:52,409 Jennifer Duke: director at Livewire Markets. Matthew, welcome to Fear and Greed. 17 00:00:52,409 --> 00:00:52,589 Matthew Gabriele: Thank you for having me. 18 00:00:54,660 --> 00:00:56,970 Jennifer Duke: So let's start right back at the beginning. Where did 19 00:00:56,970 --> 00:00:58,709 Jennifer Duke: the idea for Market Index come from? 20 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,840 Matthew Gabriele: It came from someone in about 2007 when I started 21 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,319 Matthew Gabriele: working as a stockbroker. He told me how huge the 22 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:09,719 Matthew Gabriele: internet is going to be and he said, " Matt, you've 23 00:01:09,719 --> 00:01:11,699 Matthew Gabriele: got to go for a land grab, try and grab 24 00:01:11,699 --> 00:01:14,970 Matthew Gabriele: every bit of real estate online related to the stock 25 00:01:14,970 --> 00:01:17,610 Matthew Gabriele: market that you can, because you're going to regret it 26 00:01:17,610 --> 00:01:21,839 Matthew Gabriele: in 10 or 20 years time." And so in 2007 I started 27 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,559 Matthew Gabriele: accumulating all these domains. In 2010, I really got into 28 00:01:25,559 --> 00:01:30,630 Matthew Gabriele: search engine optimization, really obsessively, and I started building a 29 00:01:30,630 --> 00:01:33,690 Matthew Gabriele: whole bunch of websites in the stock market niche. And 30 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,259 Matthew Gabriele: over the years, more and more traffic started coming and 31 00:01:37,260 --> 00:01:41,730 Matthew Gabriele: by 2014, I think I was having about 100, 000 users 32 00:01:41,730 --> 00:01:44,759 Matthew Gabriele: a month on various websites and I thought, geez, I've 33 00:01:44,759 --> 00:01:47,099 Matthew Gabriele: got to do something about this or I'm going to 34 00:01:47,100 --> 00:01:51,630 Matthew Gabriele: regret it. And late 2014, that's when I merged all 35 00:01:51,630 --> 00:01:54,240 Matthew Gabriele: of them into one and launched Market Index. 36 00:01:54,810 --> 00:01:57,090 Jennifer Duke: So what were you able to provide that investors couldn't 37 00:01:57,090 --> 00:01:59,370 Jennifer Duke: get elsewhere? What was the need here that you were filling? 38 00:02:00,090 --> 00:02:04,110 Matthew Gabriele: All my websites fulfilled one specific need. So if they wanted 39 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:08,460 Matthew Gabriele: to know one specific piece of data or one specific 40 00:02:08,460 --> 00:02:12,180 Matthew Gabriele: area of analysis, I dedicated an entire mini site or 41 00:02:12,180 --> 00:02:16,559 Matthew Gabriele: website to that one thing. Most of it is people 42 00:02:16,559 --> 00:02:21,720 Matthew Gabriele: just want an easy way to consume large amounts of 43 00:02:22,350 --> 00:02:27,090 Matthew Gabriele: dry financial information, and enjoy doing it. That's it in a nutshell, just 44 00:02:27,090 --> 00:02:29,250 Matthew Gabriele: make life easier for ASX investors 45 00:02:29,940 --> 00:02:32,459 Jennifer Duke: As simple and complex as that task must be to 46 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,480 Jennifer Duke: fulfill. So what were some of those challenges that you 47 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,820 Jennifer Duke: encountered along the way in trying to do that and 48 00:02:38,820 --> 00:02:42,209 Jennifer Duke: are there some specific challenges around using the ASX as the 49 00:02:42,209 --> 00:02:43,019 Jennifer Duke: source of data? 50 00:02:43,019 --> 00:02:48,540 Matthew Gabriele: I wouldn't say the ASX specifically. I'd say the data 51 00:02:48,540 --> 00:02:51,690 Matthew Gabriele: industry as a whole. A lot of people don't realize 52 00:02:51,690 --> 00:02:56,489 Matthew Gabriele: that a lot of financial information is still manually taken 53 00:02:56,610 --> 00:02:59,910 Matthew Gabriele: out of announcements. So the company pushes the announcement to the ASX, 54 00:02:59,910 --> 00:03:03,630 Matthew Gabriele: the ASX, distribute the announcement, and then we've got all 55 00:03:03,630 --> 00:03:08,280 Matthew Gabriele: these other data collation companies who manually go through it, 56 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,480 Matthew Gabriele: manually plug in all the financials, manually type in all 57 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,179 Matthew Gabriele: the dividends and things like that. And whenever you get 58 00:03:15,179 --> 00:03:18,179 Matthew Gabriele: large amounts of information that are copy and paste, there's 59 00:03:18,180 --> 00:03:20,730 Matthew Gabriele: going to be manual errors along the way. And one 60 00:03:20,730 --> 00:03:23,790 Matthew Gabriele: small error, let's say in a dividend, can have a 61 00:03:23,790 --> 00:03:27,000 Matthew Gabriele: huge impact on a number of other calculations down the 62 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:31,710 Matthew Gabriele: track. And until the data industry is entirely automated, I 63 00:03:31,710 --> 00:03:35,730 Matthew Gabriele: don't see it changing very much and people really should 64 00:03:35,730 --> 00:03:38,700 Matthew Gabriele: be aware of data integrity and we try our butts 65 00:03:38,700 --> 00:03:41,160 Matthew Gabriele: off to try and keep everything as accurate as possible. 66 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,910 Jennifer Duke: And as you're saying, it is an incredibly precise field and 67 00:03:44,910 --> 00:03:47,639 Jennifer Duke: any mistake that you make affects the data that investors 68 00:03:47,639 --> 00:03:50,400 Jennifer Duke: are really using to make their decisions. Does that keep 69 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:51,359 Jennifer Duke: you up at night at all? 70 00:03:52,859 --> 00:03:55,950 Matthew Gabriele: Not so much now. We've got a lot of automated 71 00:03:55,950 --> 00:03:59,460 Matthew Gabriele: ways to flag things, but yeah, certainly learning it and 72 00:03:59,460 --> 00:04:03,599 Matthew Gabriele: understanding it initially, it was a huge thing to do 73 00:04:03,599 --> 00:04:07,409 Matthew Gabriele: because there isn't online help documentation. It's you just have 74 00:04:07,410 --> 00:04:10,259 Matthew Gabriele: to grab the data feed, go through it one company 75 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,290 Matthew Gabriele: after another and make your decision that way, whether you're 76 00:04:13,290 --> 00:04:14,370 Matthew Gabriele: going to use that feed or not. 77 00:04:14,730 --> 00:04:16,500 Jennifer Duke: Stay with me, Matthew, we'll be back in a minute. 78 00:04:22,950 --> 00:04:25,589 Jennifer Duke: I'm speaking to Matthew Gabriele, the founder of Market Index 79 00:04:25,589 --> 00:04:30,239 Jennifer Duke: and executive director at Livewire Markets. Obviously the COVID period 80 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,180 Jennifer Duke: was massive for investing. Loads of new investors coming into 81 00:04:33,180 --> 00:04:35,580 Jennifer Duke: the market. All of them had to get data and 82 00:04:35,580 --> 00:04:38,430 Jennifer Duke: insight from somewhere. What did this mean for Market Index? 83 00:04:38,790 --> 00:04:44,070 Matthew Gabriele: Yeah, so March 2020 during the crash, that was the 84 00:04:44,070 --> 00:04:48,570 Matthew Gabriele: best month in history for Market Index. August just been 85 00:04:48,570 --> 00:04:52,860 Matthew Gabriele: was the second. But whenever there's a crash, more people 86 00:04:52,860 --> 00:04:55,710 Matthew Gabriele: search for things on the stock market than they do when 87 00:04:55,710 --> 00:04:58,289 Matthew Gabriele: it's actually hitting new highs. Because that panic and that 88 00:04:58,290 --> 00:05:00,870 Matthew Gabriele: fear comes into it and people are just checking it 89 00:05:00,870 --> 00:05:04,469 Matthew Gabriele: all day every day. In that March 2020, I was 90 00:05:04,469 --> 00:05:06,900 Matthew Gabriele: struggling to keep the website up and I actually had 91 00:05:06,900 --> 00:05:10,320 Matthew Gabriele: to drop a few minor data feeds just to keep 92 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,260 Matthew Gabriele: the server running so the website would stay up for 93 00:05:13,260 --> 00:05:17,730 Matthew Gabriele: people to watch it. That was the biggest thing. And 94 00:05:17,730 --> 00:05:21,089 Matthew Gabriele: I think with COVID, working from home, you don't have 95 00:05:21,089 --> 00:05:23,039 Matthew Gabriele: a boss looking over your shoulder the whole time. So 96 00:05:23,039 --> 00:05:25,438 Matthew Gabriele: people were checking the stock market a lot more. A 97 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:27,299 Matthew Gabriele: lot more traders were coming into the market. I had 98 00:05:27,300 --> 00:05:30,690 Matthew Gabriele: never had so many people reaching out saying, " How do 99 00:05:30,690 --> 00:05:33,089 Matthew Gabriele: I set up a broking account? Where do I do 100 00:05:33,089 --> 00:05:36,270 Matthew Gabriele: that?" It blew my mind. And COVID actually was a 101 00:05:36,270 --> 00:05:39,299 Matthew Gabriele: fantastic thing for the website because once people visit it 102 00:05:39,299 --> 00:05:42,118 Matthew Gabriele: once, they tend to come back. And if you look 103 00:05:42,119 --> 00:05:44,310 Matthew Gabriele: at our long- term traffic, that was a huge blip and I think it was the huge blip 104 00:05:46,380 --> 00:05:48,450 Matthew Gabriele: for pretty much every website in the finance industry. 105 00:05:49,260 --> 00:05:51,000 Jennifer Duke: I think we'll take that as a nice silver lining 106 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,789 Jennifer Duke: from COVID, that people became much more engaged with investing. 107 00:05:54,750 --> 00:05:55,680 Matthew Gabriele: Absolutely. 108 00:05:56,460 --> 00:05:59,128 Jennifer Duke: Now, I did mention in the introduction that in August 109 00:05:59,129 --> 00:06:03,359 Jennifer Duke: this year you reached about 690,000 monthly users, which is 110 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,210 Jennifer Duke: massive. And you've done all of that without spending on 111 00:06:06,210 --> 00:06:10,950 Jennifer Duke: advertising I'm hearing. How? How would you do something like that? 112 00:06:11,010 --> 00:06:13,650 Matthew Gabriele: I think what it comes down to is that I'm 113 00:06:13,650 --> 00:06:19,200 Matthew Gabriele: driven by fun and passion, not money. So particularly in 114 00:06:19,230 --> 00:06:23,549 Matthew Gabriele: the initial years, I cared more about the website being 115 00:06:23,550 --> 00:06:26,370 Matthew Gabriele: loved and being used and getting all those emails than 116 00:06:26,370 --> 00:06:29,790 Matthew Gabriele: I did about making money. And apart from a few 117 00:06:29,790 --> 00:06:33,839 Matthew Gabriele: ads at most, two ads on a page, little banner 118 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,230 Matthew Gabriele: ads, I didn't monetize the website until a few years 119 00:06:37,260 --> 00:06:40,650 Matthew Gabriele: ago. All I wanted was to build this big website 120 00:06:40,650 --> 00:06:43,110 Matthew Gabriele: that everyone loved. Because the more ads you put on, 121 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:47,069 Matthew Gabriele: the more sponsored stuff, the lower the user experience and 122 00:06:47,070 --> 00:06:49,888 Matthew Gabriele: it can harm you in the longterm. So I did 123 00:06:49,889 --> 00:06:52,589 Matthew Gabriele: it by first off, looking at the data, what are 124 00:06:52,589 --> 00:06:57,000 Matthew Gabriele: people searching for? Build something that is insanely useful around 125 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,868 Matthew Gabriele: that specific problem they're trying to solve and make the 126 00:07:00,870 --> 00:07:03,539 Matthew Gabriele: user experience really awesome. So they want to come back 127 00:07:03,540 --> 00:07:04,200 Matthew Gabriele: and it's a pleasure. 128 00:07:04,830 --> 00:07:07,710 Jennifer Duke: So do most people find you through search and then 129 00:07:07,710 --> 00:07:09,810 Jennifer Duke: they become loyal users? Is that the path? 130 00:07:10,260 --> 00:07:12,630 Matthew Gabriele: That is the path. Yes. So as I said, no 131 00:07:12,630 --> 00:07:16,770 Matthew Gabriele: advertising. People find us once online and because of that year- on- 132 00:07:16,770 --> 00:07:19,800 Matthew Gabriele: year we've grown. We haven't had a down year yet 133 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,009 Matthew Gabriele: in traffic and that's it. They search for their favorite 134 00:07:23,010 --> 00:07:25,349 Matthew Gabriele: search term, quite often we're number one or number two 135 00:07:25,349 --> 00:07:28,260 Matthew Gabriele: in the search. And then we've got a new loyal 136 00:07:28,260 --> 00:07:29,160 Matthew Gabriele: visitor, which is great. 137 00:07:30,030 --> 00:07:32,580 Jennifer Duke: So when did Livewire markets enter the picture? 138 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:38,099 Matthew Gabriele: Well, of all the finance websites, we all kind of 139 00:07:38,099 --> 00:07:40,500 Matthew Gabriele: know each other anyway. You bump into each other or 140 00:07:40,500 --> 00:07:43,110 Matthew Gabriele: you have to talk to each other at various times. 141 00:07:43,530 --> 00:07:47,579 Matthew Gabriele: So I chatted with them about 18 months ago, and 142 00:07:47,580 --> 00:07:50,520 Matthew Gabriele: when I outlined what our vision is, what our mission 143 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:54,900 Matthew Gabriele: is, I think Tom, the MD of Livewire was blown 144 00:07:54,900 --> 00:08:02,849 Matthew Gabriele: away at how perfectly aligned our missions were. Then about 145 00:08:02,849 --> 00:08:05,699 Matthew Gabriele: a year ago, he just called me up and said, " 146 00:08:05,699 --> 00:08:08,880 Matthew Gabriele: Matt, I want to do something big. I'm going to 147 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:10,440 Matthew Gabriele: fly over to Perth and I want to have a 148 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,440 Matthew Gabriele: chat with you." And as soon as someone, the amount 149 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,020 Matthew Gabriele: of people you get wanting to buy the website and 150 00:08:16,679 --> 00:08:18,870 Matthew Gabriele: most of them are just wasting your time, when someone 151 00:08:18,870 --> 00:08:21,328 Matthew Gabriele: says they're going to fly from Sydney to Perth to 152 00:08:21,330 --> 00:08:23,339 Matthew Gabriele: have a meeting because he wants to have a chat 153 00:08:23,340 --> 00:08:26,550 Matthew Gabriele: with you, you know someone's serious. And from that day on, I 154 00:08:26,550 --> 00:08:27,960 Matthew Gabriele: took everything he said, seriously. 155 00:08:28,740 --> 00:08:31,440 Jennifer Duke: So you said before that you're not particularly driven by 156 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:33,929 Jennifer Duke: money, so I'm assuming you weren't always building towards an 157 00:08:33,929 --> 00:08:37,320 Jennifer Duke: acquisition or were you? Maybe that's an open question for 158 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,449 Jennifer Duke: you, but even so, how did you know it was 159 00:08:39,780 --> 00:08:40,620 Jennifer Duke: the right time? 160 00:08:41,849 --> 00:08:44,699 Matthew Gabriele: I knew it was the right time because I wasn't 161 00:08:44,700 --> 00:08:48,718 Matthew Gabriele: having fun anymore. So when you're the only person in 162 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,030 Matthew Gabriele: the business, you do whatever you want, whenever you want, 163 00:08:51,210 --> 00:08:55,619 Matthew Gabriele: it's fantastic. As you're scaling the company, you get more 164 00:08:55,620 --> 00:08:59,369 Matthew Gabriele: and more staff. I hate being a MD. Absolutely hate 165 00:08:59,369 --> 00:09:01,078 Matthew Gabriele: it. I don't know why anyone would like doing it. 166 00:09:01,290 --> 00:09:04,770 Matthew Gabriele: You've become the lightning rod for everything. You can't actually 167 00:09:04,770 --> 00:09:06,690 Matthew Gabriele: do any work. You spend your whole day just putting 168 00:09:06,690 --> 00:09:09,750 Matthew Gabriele: out fires and looking after other people. I like having 169 00:09:09,750 --> 00:09:12,509 Matthew Gabriele: a specific thing to do. Let me put my headphones 170 00:09:12,509 --> 00:09:14,669 Matthew Gabriele: on. I don't want to talk to you. That's my 171 00:09:14,670 --> 00:09:18,360 Matthew Gabriele: role, and I just wasn't enjoying the day- to- day 172 00:09:18,420 --> 00:09:23,760 Matthew Gabriele: anymore. And that's something Tom loves. Livewire's a very tight 173 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,929 Matthew Gabriele: ship, awesome company. And I was like, yep, cool. I 174 00:09:27,929 --> 00:09:30,238 Matthew Gabriele: want to build stuff from the inside and you can 175 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,968 Matthew Gabriele: do all the MD stuff and that's it. I'll just 176 00:09:32,969 --> 00:09:33,660 Matthew Gabriele: stay in the background. 177 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,710 Jennifer Duke: That sounds like a match made in heaven. Where to 178 00:09:37,710 --> 00:09:40,440 Jennifer Duke: from here for you? Is there more growth available in 179 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:40,950 Jennifer Duke: the market? 180 00:09:41,700 --> 00:09:45,240 Matthew Gabriele: Yes. There's always more growth whether we go global or 181 00:09:45,420 --> 00:09:49,020 Matthew Gabriele: there are a lot of strategies that we've been investigating. 182 00:09:49,349 --> 00:09:53,670 Matthew Gabriele: At the core of it, both of us want to be the 183 00:09:53,670 --> 00:09:57,120 Matthew Gabriele: place or the most loved source of financial information and 184 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,059 Matthew Gabriele: analysis. We want everyone to start their day with our 185 00:10:00,059 --> 00:10:03,360 Matthew Gabriele: websites and we're just going to be doubling down on 186 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,849 Matthew Gabriele: that, with the firm belief that if you look after 187 00:10:05,849 --> 00:10:10,619 Matthew Gabriele: the user and genuinely care about every single user and 188 00:10:10,619 --> 00:10:12,929 Matthew Gabriele: what they want, that you are going to get rewarded in the 189 00:10:12,929 --> 00:10:15,900 Matthew Gabriele: longterm. I've been following that since day one and they're 190 00:10:15,900 --> 00:10:17,400 Matthew Gabriele: of the same belief and we're going to be doing 191 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:18,330 Matthew Gabriele: that going forward. 192 00:10:19,050 --> 00:10:21,510 Jennifer Duke: Definitely. Matthew, thank you very much for talking to Fear 193 00:10:21,510 --> 00:10:21,929 Jennifer Duke: and Greed. 194 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:23,970 Matthew Gabriele: No problems. Thanks for having me. 195 00:10:24,570 --> 00:10:27,120 Jennifer Duke: And that was Matthew Gabriele, the founder of Market Index 196 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,630 Jennifer Duke: and executive Director at Livewire Markets. This is the Fear 197 00:10:30,630 --> 00:10:33,179 Jennifer Duke: and Greed business interview. Join us every morning for the 198 00:10:33,179 --> 00:10:36,390 Jennifer Duke: full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's best business podcast. 199 00:10:36,660 --> 00:10:39,899 Jennifer Duke: I'm Jennifer Duke, economics correspondent at Capital Brief and filling 200 00:10:39,900 --> 00:10:41,670 Jennifer Duke: in for Sean Aylmer. Have a great day.