Speaker 1: My government has taken a series of actions to crack
Speaker 1: down on anti Semitism.
Speaker 2: Last week the Prime Minister Anthony Abernezi announced the results
Speaker 2: of his government's approach to tackling antisemitism.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that we did last year,
Speaker 1: a year ago it was to appoint Jillian Siegel as
Speaker 1: a Special Envoy to combat anti Semitism. And can I
Speaker 1: thank Jillian very much for one taking on the position
Speaker 1: and secondly for the extraordinary work that she has done.
Speaker 2: The report that the Envoy Jillian Siegel produced recommends the
Speaker 2: monitoring of media organizations and that government funding be withheld
Speaker 2: from universities and cultural institutions if they don't stop antisemitism.
Speaker 3: The plan's not about words. It is about actions by government,
Speaker 3: by regulators, by business, by universities and by institutions.
Speaker 2: But critics say that what she is proposing could backfire.
Speaker 2: You're listening to seven Am.
Speaker 3: I'm Ruby Jones.
Speaker 2: Today human rights lawyer and executive officer at the Jewish
Speaker 2: Council of Australia Sarah Schwartz on the rise in anti
Speaker 2: Semitism and what would stop it. It's Wednesday, July sixteenth,
Speaker 2: So Sarah, I wanted to start with the attacks that
Speaker 2: we're seeing. Arson attacks on synagogue's anti Semitic graffiti are
Speaker 2: forcing a need for more security at Jewish schools. So
Speaker 2: this rise in anti Semitism, what is the impact on
Speaker 2: Jewish Australians.
Speaker 3: I think these incidents have a really significant impact on
Speaker 3: Jewish people living here. You know, Jewish people have never
Speaker 3: been more visible. I think these anti Semitic incidents receive
Speaker 3: a lot of media attention and coverage, and it's still
Speaker 3: a lot of fear within the Jewish community.
Speaker 2: Melbourne Synagogue has been hit by an arsen attack, is
Speaker 2: out aults and children were having a Schubert meal inside.
Speaker 4: A group of twenty masked pro Palestine protesters stormed Israeli
Speaker 4: restaurant Miss Non in hardware lane, chanting, hurling chairs and
Speaker 4: traffic cones and overturning tables. Words free Palestine spray painted
Speaker 4: a number of times across this synagogue.
Speaker 3: Along We've also seen quite a number of anti Semitic
Speaker 3: actors capitalizing on this moment. We've seen, you know, recently,
Speaker 3: I think just this week it was revealed that in
Speaker 3: regard to the Newtown Synagogue attack, the organizers and the
Speaker 3: culprit of that attack weren't actually committing this act of
Speaker 3: violence necessarily because they had some hatred of Jewish people,
Speaker 3: but because they wanted police to believe that they had
Speaker 3: valuable information that could be exchanged for assistance on drug
Speaker 3: related about it so an entirely unrelated purpose, and I
Speaker 3: think that that shows there are a lot of bad
Speaker 3: actors who are capitalizing on this hyper visibility of Jewish
Speaker 3: people to spread out of hatred but also for their
Speaker 3: or in purposes. I would also say we currently are
Speaker 3: in a context where it's not just anti Semitism that
Speaker 3: is rising. We've also seen huge rises in Islamophobia, in
Speaker 3: anti Palestinian racism, but also in racism against First Nations peoples.
Speaker 3: But now it seems like our entire political class is
Speaker 3: sort of rowling behind anti Semitism as sort of being
Speaker 3: the most important form of racism. I think that's hugely damaging.
Speaker 3: I think that creates di vision and we know that
Speaker 3: actually tackling racism involves collaboration and working with all racialized
Speaker 3: communities because it is interconnected and it can only be
Speaker 3: tackled by us working together.
Speaker 2: Let's talk more about the special envoy into anti Semitism
Speaker 2: chosen by Anthony Albanezi last year.
Speaker 3: JILLN.
Speaker 2: Singal's report has just come down. But before we talk
Speaker 2: about the report itself, can you tell me a bit
Speaker 2: about her, who she is, how she was chosen.
Speaker 3: So I guess this is information that we don't necessarily
Speaker 3: have at hand, and that's part of the problem. Julian
Speaker 3: Siegel was appointed through a very opaque process. There was
Speaker 3: no consultation with diverse voices in the Jewish community, certainly
Speaker 3: no consultation with Jewish people who don't support Israel. The
Speaker 3: envoy that has been selected is the former president of
Speaker 3: the Executive Council of Australian Jury, an organization that has
Speaker 3: been lobbying quite viciferously for Israel. She's also the former
Speaker 3: chair of the Australian Israel Chamber of Commerce, and in
Speaker 3: those roles she's someone who has opposed a cease fire,
Speaker 3: called for the continuation of Israel's all which we know
Speaker 3: has devastated Palestinian life in Gaza. She's denounced to actors
Speaker 3: for wearing the kafir, pushed for prominent Palestinian voices to
Speaker 3: be excluded in the media, and also promoted this view
Speaker 3: of the Jewish community as being uniform as being a
Speaker 3: community that stands with Israel, that will always stand with Israel,
Speaker 3: and in doing so, she doesn't represent a significant portion
Speaker 3: of the Jewish community and a grow portion of the
Speaker 3: Jewish community who are opposed to Israel's violence against Palestinians.
Speaker 3: So my concern is that this appointment was a political
Speaker 3: appointment that was pushed by pro Israel groups to sort
Speaker 3: of insert their agenda into these discussions around anti semitism
Speaker 3: and racism. And the person who's been selected has no
Speaker 3: expertise in actually tackling racism and reducing incidents of racism
Speaker 3: and anti semitism, and I think that this report really
Speaker 3: shows lack of awareness and understanding about the drivers and
Speaker 3: how to combat racism and anti semitism. Instead, this report
Speaker 3: and the envoys work has for the most part been
Speaker 3: about trying to stifle criticism of Israel and support for
Speaker 3: Palestinian human rights, and that's very concerning.
Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about what's in the report. It calls
Speaker 2: for the government to adopt a specific definition of antisemitism,
Speaker 2: the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition. It's one that's used
Speaker 2: by dozens of countries around the world world, but it
Speaker 2: is contentious, particularly because of some of the examples of
Speaker 2: anti semitism that it provides, things like saying that it's
Speaker 2: anti semitic to call Israel a racist endeavor. So tell
Speaker 2: me what your concerns are with this definition.
Speaker 3: So the IATIRA definition is a very contested and controversial
Speaker 3: definition of anti semitism. We can make very critical claims
Speaker 3: about the state of Israel without verging into anti semitism,
Speaker 3: because we're talking about a nation state. It's very dangerous.
Speaker 3: What this IRA definition does is that it equates Jewish
Speaker 3: identity with support for the state of Israel. So, for example,
Speaker 3: one of the examples in the IRA definition is saying
Speaker 3: that it's anti semitic to draw comparisons between contemporary Israeli
Speaker 3: policy to that of the Nazis. Now, I don't like
Speaker 3: those comparisons either. But currently what we're seeing is that
Speaker 3: Israel's government has announced a plan to concentrate Palestinians into zones.
Speaker 3: What it's calling is a humanitarian city. But we know
Speaker 3: that Palestinians are being concentrated and that they're being shot
Speaker 3: while seeking aid. There are many international Israeli scholars and
Speaker 3: international law scholars, including Holocaust scholars which are drawing comparisons
Speaker 3: between these concentrated zones that are being proposed and how
Speaker 3: the Nazis concentrated Jewish people into zones now making those analogies,
Speaker 3: however uncomfortable they may be, and however unstrategic, you might
Speaker 3: argue that they are doesn't mean that they are anti Semitic.
Speaker 2: After the break, what the Envoys Report would mean for universities, Sarah.
Speaker 2: The Envoys Report says that universities that enable or fail
Speaker 2: to act on anti Semitism should have their funding cut. This,
Speaker 2: of course comes after we've seen pro Palestine encampments at universities,
Speaker 2: where protesters have changed things like from the River to
Speaker 2: the Sea, Palestine will be free. Of course, one reading
Speaker 2: of that change is that Israel should not exist. So
Speaker 2: where do you think the line is on freedom of
Speaker 2: political expression at universities.
Speaker 3: I think for universities, it's critically important that they are
Speaker 3: spaces where we can have critical discussions that make people
Speaker 3: feel uncomfortable. You know, I'm someone who growing up, I
Speaker 3: thought that support for Israel was almost assumed, and I
Speaker 3: was someone who went to university, you know, feeling very
Speaker 3: uncomfortable about discussions around Israel, feeling like these discussions were
Speaker 3: sort of and a tap on my identity. But it
Speaker 3: was the fact that I was able to hear critical perspectives,
Speaker 3: to engage in discussion, even though those discussions made me
Speaker 3: feel very uncomfortable, day really challenged me and led me
Speaker 3: to having the views I have today. I think it
Speaker 3: would be so devastating if our universities become space is
Speaker 3: where these views can't be challenged, where we can't have
Speaker 3: these critical discussions, particularly in this moment now. In in regard
Speaker 3: to phrases like from the river to the Sea, I
Speaker 3: would say, yes, I think that, you know, some might
Speaker 3: interpret that phrase is calling for an abandonment of the
Speaker 3: State of Israel as it currently exists, because we have
Speaker 3: to acknowledge that currently the State of Israel controls the
Speaker 3: entire region from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea
Speaker 3: in a number of sort of legal regimes that prioritize
Speaker 3: the rights of Israeli Jewish people over and above the
Speaker 3: rights of Palestinian people. And so when we have this
Speaker 3: context of unequal treatment of people between the Jordan River
Speaker 3: and the Mediterranean Sea, a call from the river to
Speaker 3: the sea Palestine will be free, you know, should be
Speaker 3: interpreted as a call that everyone living between the river
Speaker 3: and the sea have equality and freedom. Now, of course
Speaker 3: people might mean different things when they say this slogan,
Speaker 3: but they don't think that you can operate in the
Speaker 3: diversity space just by sort of playing whack a mole
Speaker 3: and trying to stifle different types of speech that you
Speaker 3: feel uncomfortable with. I think that kind of goes against
Speaker 3: the very purpose of a university is a place of
Speaker 3: critical thinking.
Speaker 2: And one of the reasons that Gillian Siegel said that
Speaker 2: she made the recommendations that she did is because she
Speaker 2: says that her research shows that people under thirty five
Speaker 2: have very different views on both Jewish people and the
Speaker 2: existence of the State of Israel. So what do you
Speaker 2: make of that reason?
Speaker 3: I guess the first thing to say is that this
Speaker 3: report or this anti Semitism plan doesn't have any referencing
Speaker 3: or footnotes in it. We don't know what research to
Speaker 3: anti semitism Envoy has relied on. I mean, I would
Speaker 3: say that, you know, if that statistic is correct, which
Speaker 3: it may very well be, I think you could probably
Speaker 3: identify one main driver of this as being the fact
Speaker 3: that the State of Israel is currently committing I think
Speaker 3: are widely acknowledged as war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Speaker 3: Whilst flying a flag that has a Jewish symbol on it,
Speaker 3: the Star of David. You know, it is using Jewish
Speaker 3: symbolism and Jewish identity to commit war crimes. And I
Speaker 3: think particularly younger people are seeing this play out in
Speaker 3: real time, and so I would say that that could
Speaker 3: be one potential driver of anti Semitism, and that people
Speaker 3: are making this conflation between Jewish identity and the war
Speaker 3: crimes that Israel is engaging in. Now that's not to
Speaker 3: say that that form of anti Semitism is okay. It's not.
Speaker 3: But if we're actually talking about ways to tackle that
Speaker 3: form of anti Semitism where Jewish people are being blamed
Speaker 3: for the actions of the State of Israel, then you
Speaker 3: would think that a project to combat that would involve,
Speaker 3: you know, promoting, within our political and media landscape in
Speaker 3: particular and from our leaders, a view that really separates
Speaker 3: Jewish identity from support for the State of Israel. And
Speaker 3: that's not what we're seeing.
Speaker 2: If there is this conflation, as you say, happening between
Speaker 2: the actions of the State of Israel with Jewish people,
Speaker 2: that is a problem as you say, particularly if it's
Speaker 2: driving anti Semitic attacks. So can you tell me a
Speaker 2: bit more about what you think would work to change
Speaker 2: that view.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, so. I think really critical to that is
Speaker 3: that we say, our political leaders the media draw a
Speaker 3: real distinction between Jewish identity and support for the State
Speaker 3: of Israel. And that's something that I think the Jewish
Speaker 3: Council is really committed to. We're committed to using our
Speaker 3: voices to both, you know, speak out in favor of
Speaker 3: Palestinian human rights, but also to draw that distinction between
Speaker 3: Jewish identity and the State of Israel. Because we know
Speaker 3: that Jewish identities go back over three thousand years. We
Speaker 3: have diverse histories and cultures. There's no one single Jewish community.
Speaker 3: And Zionism is an ideology, is a fairly new ideology,
Speaker 3: and it's one that has, you know, at different times,
Speaker 3: received a lot of criticism from people within the Jewish community.
Speaker 3: You know, when Zionism emerged as an ideology, it wasn't
Speaker 3: supported by most of the Jewish community. And so we
Speaker 3: know that these two things aren't interleaked. And I think
Speaker 3: in drawing out these histories of diverse expressions of Jewishness
Speaker 3: which is something that the Council is aiming to achieve
Speaker 3: that that really helps to tackle that form of anti Semitism.
Speaker 3: I would also like to see the government consulting and
Speaker 3: making sure they're taking into account diverse Jewish voices, you know,
Speaker 3: not simply highlighting the louder pro Israel Jewish voices within
Speaker 3: our community, because again, that sort of just promotes this
Speaker 3: view of the Jewish community as a monolith, which I
Speaker 3: think drives anti Semitism. We need leadership in this moment
Speaker 3: for our politicians to say, you know, actually we're going
Speaker 3: to tackle this issue at its core, rather than sort
Speaker 3: of funding cuts to universities and the media and all
Speaker 3: these things which we know will actually just stoke the
Speaker 3: flames of division.
Speaker 2: Well, Sarah, thank you so much for your time today.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me Ruby.
Speaker 2: We sent a list of questions raised in this interview
Speaker 2: to the Special Envoy Jillian Siegal's office. They were not
Speaker 2: able to provide responses by our deadline. We've also invited
Speaker 2: Jillian Siegal on seven AM. We hope to bring you
Speaker 2: an interview with her soon. Also in the news today,
Speaker 2: more than eight hundred additional children should get tested for
Speaker 2: sexually transmitted diseases, according to the Victorian Chief Health Officer.
Speaker 2: The recommendations come after police release the names of four
Speaker 2: more childcare centers where Joshua Dale Brown worked in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty four and twenty twenty five. Brown is being investigated
Speaker 2: by the Sexual Crime Squad and is facing more than
Speaker 2: seventy charges for his alleged abuse of children. On July one,
Speaker 2: police urged the families of one thousand, two hundred children
Speaker 2: to seek testing for sexually transmitted infection after they were
Speaker 2: identified as having been at centers where he worked. And
Speaker 2: a landmark case brought by Torres Right community leaders against
Speaker 2: the federal government has been dismissed in.
Speaker 3: The federal court.
Speaker 2: The class action argued that the government has a duty
Speaker 2: of care to protect the torrest Rate Islands from climate change.
Speaker 2: In handing down his finding, Justice Michael Wigney did not
Speaker 2: find the government responsible, but said there could be little,
Speaker 2: if any doubt that the torrest Rate Islands face oblique
Speaker 2: future if urgent action is not taken.
Speaker 3: I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am. Thanks for listening.