WEBVTT - Why the Envoy’s plan to tackle antisemitism could backfire 0:00:01.240 --> 0:00:03.920 My government has taken a series of actions to crack 0:00:04.000 --> 0:00:05.760 down on anti Semitism. 0:00:06.040 --> 0:00:09.920 Last week the Prime Minister Anthony Abernezi announced the results 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:12.800 of his government's approach to tackling antisemitism. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.160 And one of the things that we did last year, 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:19.320 a year ago it was to appoint Jillian Siegel as 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:23.200 a Special Envoy to combat anti Semitism. And can I 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:27.120 thank Jillian very much for one taking on the position 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:31.800 and secondly for the extraordinary work that she has done. 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:35.519 The report that the Envoy Jillian Siegel produced recommends the 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:39.800 monitoring of media organizations and that government funding be withheld 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:44.280 from universities and cultural institutions if they don't stop antisemitism. 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:47.760 The plan's not about words. It is about actions by government, 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:52.640 by regulators, by business, by universities and by institutions. 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:55.720 But critics say that what she is proposing could backfire. 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:01.680 You're listening to seven Am. 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:02.800 I'm Ruby Jones. 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:06.520 Today human rights lawyer and executive officer at the Jewish 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:10.160 Council of Australia Sarah Schwartz on the rise in anti 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:23.920 Semitism and what would stop it. It's Wednesday, July sixteenth, 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:26.440 So Sarah, I wanted to start with the attacks that 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:31.039 we're seeing. Arson attacks on synagogue's anti Semitic graffiti are 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:33.680 forcing a need for more security at Jewish schools. So 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:37.120 this rise in anti Semitism, what is the impact on 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:38.120 Jewish Australians. 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:42.080 I think these incidents have a really significant impact on 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:45.880 Jewish people living here. You know, Jewish people have never 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:50.040 been more visible. I think these anti Semitic incidents receive 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:53.120 a lot of media attention and coverage, and it's still 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:55.600 a lot of fear within the Jewish community. 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:59.640 Melbourne Synagogue has been hit by an arsen attack, is 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:03.040 out aults and children were having a Schubert meal inside. 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:07.520 A group of twenty masked pro Palestine protesters stormed Israeli 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:11.680 restaurant Miss Non in hardware lane, chanting, hurling chairs and 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:16.320 traffic cones and overturning tables. Words free Palestine spray painted 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:19.079 a number of times across this synagogue. 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:22.360 Along We've also seen quite a number of anti Semitic 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:26.679 actors capitalizing on this moment. We've seen, you know, recently, 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:29.920 I think just this week it was revealed that in 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:34.840 regard to the Newtown Synagogue attack, the organizers and the 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:38.079 culprit of that attack weren't actually committing this act of 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:41.880 violence necessarily because they had some hatred of Jewish people, 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:45.200 but because they wanted police to believe that they had 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:49.040 valuable information that could be exchanged for assistance on drug 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:51.679 related about it so an entirely unrelated purpose, and I 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:53.760 think that that shows there are a lot of bad 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:57.520 actors who are capitalizing on this hyper visibility of Jewish 0:02:57.520 --> 0:02:59.920 people to spread out of hatred but also for their 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:04.680 or in purposes. I would also say we currently are 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:08.520 in a context where it's not just anti Semitism that 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:12.680 is rising. We've also seen huge rises in Islamophobia, in 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:17.040 anti Palestinian racism, but also in racism against First Nations peoples. 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.240 But now it seems like our entire political class is 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:23.519 sort of rowling behind anti Semitism as sort of being 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:26.880 the most important form of racism. I think that's hugely damaging. 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:28.960 I think that creates di vision and we know that 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:34.680 actually tackling racism involves collaboration and working with all racialized 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:38.400 communities because it is interconnected and it can only be 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:40.560 tackled by us working together. 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:46.480 Let's talk more about the special envoy into anti Semitism 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:49.080 chosen by Anthony Albanezi last year. 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:49.800 JILLN. 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:52.200 Singal's report has just come down. But before we talk 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:54.720 about the report itself, can you tell me a bit 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:57.360 about her, who she is, how she was chosen. 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:00.000 So I guess this is information that we don't necessarily 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:02.760 have at hand, and that's part of the problem. Julian 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:06.240 Siegel was appointed through a very opaque process. There was 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:09.680 no consultation with diverse voices in the Jewish community, certainly 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:14.000 no consultation with Jewish people who don't support Israel. The 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:17.080 envoy that has been selected is the former president of 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:21.880 the Executive Council of Australian Jury, an organization that has 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:26.880 been lobbying quite viciferously for Israel. She's also the former 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:30.480 chair of the Australian Israel Chamber of Commerce, and in 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:34.040 those roles she's someone who has opposed a cease fire, 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:37.440 called for the continuation of Israel's all which we know 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:41.640 has devastated Palestinian life in Gaza. She's denounced to actors 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:45.160 for wearing the kafir, pushed for prominent Palestinian voices to 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:48.200 be excluded in the media, and also promoted this view 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:51.159 of the Jewish community as being uniform as being a 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:54.800 community that stands with Israel, that will always stand with Israel, 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:58.400 and in doing so, she doesn't represent a significant portion 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:00.600 of the Jewish community and a grow portion of the 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:04.279 Jewish community who are opposed to Israel's violence against Palestinians. 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:07.839 So my concern is that this appointment was a political 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:12.080 appointment that was pushed by pro Israel groups to sort 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:15.600 of insert their agenda into these discussions around anti semitism 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:18.560 and racism. And the person who's been selected has no 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:24.120 expertise in actually tackling racism and reducing incidents of racism 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.080 and anti semitism, and I think that this report really 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:30.719 shows lack of awareness and understanding about the drivers and 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:34.440 how to combat racism and anti semitism. Instead, this report 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:37.880 and the envoys work has for the most part been 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:41.279 about trying to stifle criticism of Israel and support for 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:45.160 Palestinian human rights, and that's very concerning. 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:48.040 Well, let's talk about what's in the report. It calls 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:52.320 for the government to adopt a specific definition of antisemitism, 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:58.360 the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition. It's one that's used 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:00.720 by dozens of countries around the world world, but it 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:04.600 is contentious, particularly because of some of the examples of 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:08.080 anti semitism that it provides, things like saying that it's 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:12.320 anti semitic to call Israel a racist endeavor. So tell 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:15.400 me what your concerns are with this definition. 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:21.440 So the IATIRA definition is a very contested and controversial 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:25.760 definition of anti semitism. We can make very critical claims 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:28.920 about the state of Israel without verging into anti semitism, 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:31.880 because we're talking about a nation state. It's very dangerous. 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:35.680 What this IRA definition does is that it equates Jewish 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:39.760 identity with support for the state of Israel. So, for example, 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:43.359 one of the examples in the IRA definition is saying 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:46.560 that it's anti semitic to draw comparisons between contemporary Israeli 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:50.120 policy to that of the Nazis. Now, I don't like 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:53.760 those comparisons either. But currently what we're seeing is that 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:58.880 Israel's government has announced a plan to concentrate Palestinians into zones. 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:02.040 What it's calling is a humanitarian city. But we know 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:06.080 that Palestinians are being concentrated and that they're being shot 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:10.800 while seeking aid. There are many international Israeli scholars and 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:16.240 international law scholars, including Holocaust scholars which are drawing comparisons 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:19.520 between these concentrated zones that are being proposed and how 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:23.880 the Nazis concentrated Jewish people into zones now making those analogies, 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:29.480 however uncomfortable they may be, and however unstrategic, you might 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:33.080 argue that they are doesn't mean that they are anti Semitic. 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:46.640 After the break, what the Envoys Report would mean for universities, Sarah. 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:51.280 The Envoys Report says that universities that enable or fail 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:55.000 to act on anti Semitism should have their funding cut. This, 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:59.320 of course comes after we've seen pro Palestine encampments at universities, 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:03.200 where protesters have changed things like from the River to 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:06.600 the Sea, Palestine will be free. Of course, one reading 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.040 of that change is that Israel should not exist. So 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:12.560 where do you think the line is on freedom of 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:14.760 political expression at universities. 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:19.720 I think for universities, it's critically important that they are 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:24.239 spaces where we can have critical discussions that make people 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:28.480 feel uncomfortable. You know, I'm someone who growing up, I 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.720 thought that support for Israel was almost assumed, and I 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:35.560 was someone who went to university, you know, feeling very 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:40.280 uncomfortable about discussions around Israel, feeling like these discussions were 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:43.120 sort of and a tap on my identity. But it 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:46.359 was the fact that I was able to hear critical perspectives, 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:49.520 to engage in discussion, even though those discussions made me 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:53.960 feel very uncomfortable, day really challenged me and led me 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:56.600 to having the views I have today. I think it 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:00.320 would be so devastating if our universities become space is 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:03.240 where these views can't be challenged, where we can't have 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:06.920 these critical discussions, particularly in this moment now. In in regard 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:09.920 to phrases like from the river to the Sea, I 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:12.400 would say, yes, I think that, you know, some might 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:16.199 interpret that phrase is calling for an abandonment of the 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:18.480 State of Israel as it currently exists, because we have 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:21.680 to acknowledge that currently the State of Israel controls the 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:26.160 entire region from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:30.000 in a number of sort of legal regimes that prioritize 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:33.920 the rights of Israeli Jewish people over and above the 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:36.880 rights of Palestinian people. And so when we have this 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:41.199 context of unequal treatment of people between the Jordan River 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.080 and the Mediterranean Sea, a call from the river to 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:47.160 the sea Palestine will be free, you know, should be 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:50.600 interpreted as a call that everyone living between the river 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:54.320 and the sea have equality and freedom. Now, of course 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:57.120 people might mean different things when they say this slogan, 0:09:57.480 --> 0:09:59.800 but they don't think that you can operate in the 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.400 diversity space just by sort of playing whack a mole 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:05.480 and trying to stifle different types of speech that you 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:08.840 feel uncomfortable with. I think that kind of goes against 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:11.520 the very purpose of a university is a place of 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:12.400 critical thinking. 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:17.400 And one of the reasons that Gillian Siegel said that 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:20.960 she made the recommendations that she did is because she 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:24.000 says that her research shows that people under thirty five 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:27.520 have very different views on both Jewish people and the 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:30.360 existence of the State of Israel. So what do you 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:31.600 make of that reason? 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:34.720 I guess the first thing to say is that this 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:39.559 report or this anti Semitism plan doesn't have any referencing 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:42.880 or footnotes in it. We don't know what research to 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:46.800 anti semitism Envoy has relied on. I mean, I would 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:49.640 say that, you know, if that statistic is correct, which 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:52.200 it may very well be, I think you could probably 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:56.080 identify one main driver of this as being the fact 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:59.920 that the State of Israel is currently committing I think 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:03.520 are widely acknowledged as war crimes and crimes against humanity. 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:06.120 Whilst flying a flag that has a Jewish symbol on it, 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:09.120 the Star of David. You know, it is using Jewish 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:13.000 symbolism and Jewish identity to commit war crimes. And I 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:16.880 think particularly younger people are seeing this play out in 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:20.640 real time, and so I would say that that could 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:23.559 be one potential driver of anti Semitism, and that people 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:27.400 are making this conflation between Jewish identity and the war 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:30.240 crimes that Israel is engaging in. Now that's not to 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:34.120 say that that form of anti Semitism is okay. It's not. 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:37.199 But if we're actually talking about ways to tackle that 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.319 form of anti Semitism where Jewish people are being blamed 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:42.240 for the actions of the State of Israel, then you 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:46.200 would think that a project to combat that would involve, 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:50.720 you know, promoting, within our political and media landscape in 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:54.960 particular and from our leaders, a view that really separates 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:57.840 Jewish identity from support for the State of Israel. And 0:11:57.880 --> 0:11:59.120 that's not what we're seeing. 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:03.840 If there is this conflation, as you say, happening between 0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:06.800 the actions of the State of Israel with Jewish people, 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:09.800 that is a problem as you say, particularly if it's 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:12.520 driving anti Semitic attacks. So can you tell me a 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:15.920 bit more about what you think would work to change 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:16.360 that view. 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:20.240 Yeah, absolutely, so. I think really critical to that is 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:24.640 that we say, our political leaders the media draw a 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:29.080 real distinction between Jewish identity and support for the State 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:31.360 of Israel. And that's something that I think the Jewish 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:34.240 Council is really committed to. We're committed to using our 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:37.400 voices to both, you know, speak out in favor of 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:40.800 Palestinian human rights, but also to draw that distinction between 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:43.120 Jewish identity and the State of Israel. Because we know 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:47.720 that Jewish identities go back over three thousand years. We 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:52.040 have diverse histories and cultures. There's no one single Jewish community. 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:56.319 And Zionism is an ideology, is a fairly new ideology, 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:59.400 and it's one that has, you know, at different times, 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.440 received a lot of criticism from people within the Jewish community. 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:05.280 You know, when Zionism emerged as an ideology, it wasn't 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:09.040 supported by most of the Jewish community. And so we 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:12.680 know that these two things aren't interleaked. And I think 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:17.239 in drawing out these histories of diverse expressions of Jewishness 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:19.800 which is something that the Council is aiming to achieve 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:22.520 that that really helps to tackle that form of anti Semitism. 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:27.120 I would also like to see the government consulting and 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:30.440 making sure they're taking into account diverse Jewish voices, you know, 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:34.960 not simply highlighting the louder pro Israel Jewish voices within 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:38.000 our community, because again, that sort of just promotes this 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.160 view of the Jewish community as a monolith, which I 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:43.520 think drives anti Semitism. We need leadership in this moment 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:46.040 for our politicians to say, you know, actually we're going 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:49.040 to tackle this issue at its core, rather than sort 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:52.000 of funding cuts to universities and the media and all 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:54.840 these things which we know will actually just stoke the 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:55.840 flames of division. 0:13:57.720 --> 0:13:59.959 Well, Sarah, thank you so much for your time today. 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:02.120 Thank you so much for having me Ruby. 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:07.400 We sent a list of questions raised in this interview 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:10.480 to the Special Envoy Jillian Siegal's office. They were not 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:14.199 able to provide responses by our deadline. We've also invited 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:16.599 Jillian Siegal on seven AM. We hope to bring you 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:30.000 an interview with her soon. Also in the news today, 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:33.040 more than eight hundred additional children should get tested for 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:36.920 sexually transmitted diseases, according to the Victorian Chief Health Officer. 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:40.480 The recommendations come after police release the names of four 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:44.160 more childcare centers where Joshua Dale Brown worked in twenty 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:47.760 twenty four and twenty twenty five. Brown is being investigated 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:50.080 by the Sexual Crime Squad and is facing more than 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:54.200 seventy charges for his alleged abuse of children. On July one, 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:57.440 police urged the families of one thousand, two hundred children 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:01.160 to seek testing for sexually transmitted infection after they were 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:06.320 identified as having been at centers where he worked. And 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:09.400 a landmark case brought by Torres Right community leaders against 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:11.560 the federal government has been dismissed in. 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:12.400 The federal court. 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:15.280 The class action argued that the government has a duty 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:18.480 of care to protect the torrest Rate Islands from climate change. 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:21.440 In handing down his finding, Justice Michael Wigney did not 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:25.280 find the government responsible, but said there could be little, 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:28.000 if any doubt that the torrest Rate Islands face oblique 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:30.440 future if urgent action is not taken. 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:33.920 I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am. Thanks for listening.