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Speaker 1: There are certain compounds within cannabis that can actually have

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Speaker 1: an antagonistic effect blocking effect at that CB one receptor.

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Speaker 1: So there are cannabis tools that can help with appetite

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Speaker 1: suppression and improving safetidy and improving sort of blood sugar

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Speaker 1: and arrange different things there. So the endocannabinoid system is

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Speaker 1: integrally linked to metabolism, not just through those sort of

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Speaker 1: hunger cubes, but also through effects at the sort of

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Speaker 1: pancreas and the liver and a range of other areas

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Speaker 1: as well.

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Speaker 2: Hey everyone, before we get into this week's podcast, we've

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Speaker 2: got a pretty cool announcement to make you are not

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Speaker 2: able to connect with us. We have a pretty cool

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Speaker 2: little widget that's on the website. Just go to polteilor

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Speaker 2: dot bez Forwards Life podcast and near the top of

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Speaker 2: the piers you'll see a little iconic is send a

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Speaker 2: message to the Paul Taylor podcast. And so what we

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Speaker 2: can do with that you just click on that and

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Speaker 2: then you send us an audio message and we will

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Speaker 2: get the audio message. Now, the first thing I want

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Speaker 2: to do with using it is actually do and ask

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Speaker 2: me anything episode. So all you gotta do if you

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Speaker 2: got a question that we want me to cover is

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Speaker 2: just go to Paul Taylor dot b is z Forward

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Speaker 2: Slash Podcast and on start the recording, and then send

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Speaker 2: us a message about what you would like me to

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Speaker 2: talk about, and they ask me anything and leave your name.

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Speaker 2: We will call it out on the show. I'll get

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Speaker 2: that all put together. And the other thing you can

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Speaker 2: do is just leave us a message about what you

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Speaker 2: like about the podcast, what you don't like about the podcast.

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Speaker 2: I talk too a buch, all of that sort of stuff,

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Speaker 2: and just give us some feedback and we will use

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Speaker 2: that to continuously improve. So looking forward to hearing from

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Speaker 2: you now I hover the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Doctor Jim Connell. Welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much for having me. It's pleasure to

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Speaker 1: be here. Finally.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, indeed, we've had a few back and forth. Now.

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Speaker 3: I first met you. We had a quick chat at

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Speaker 3: the Jesus I can't remember whether it was the Aslam

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Speaker 3: Conference of the Act. It was one of the ones

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Speaker 3: for health professionals, and you gave a super interesting talk

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Speaker 3: on the endocannabinoid system, and I thought I got to

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Speaker 3: get this guy in the podcast because I had a

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Speaker 3: little bit of knowledge about the endocannabinoid system. Obviously know

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Speaker 3: that we have the system, you know, that's what the cannabis.

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Speaker 3: That's how it has an impact on the Brian because

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Speaker 3: we have an indulge in the system.

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Speaker 2: And I knew that it was involved in moot.

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Speaker 3: But Jesus Christ, did you open my eyes to this stuff?

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Speaker 3: So you're a GP, right, how does a GP become

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Speaker 3: interested in the endocannabinoid system to the point where you

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Speaker 3: become an expert and you're lecturing other health professionals on it.

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Speaker 1: Well, look to a very good, good question. I was

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Speaker 1: a GP really interested in complex and chronic disease management,

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Speaker 1: managing chronic pain, mental health conditions, or just most patients

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Speaker 1: out there have multiple comorbidities and they can't fit into

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Speaker 1: a particular box. As much as we try and make

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Speaker 1: them into one or two diagnoses, most patients don't really

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Speaker 1: fit into that sort of paradigm. And the conventional sort

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Speaker 1: of tools that I was using, the normal sort of

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Speaker 1: pharmaceutical tools are really made to treat single conditions and

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Speaker 1: have unexpected sort of outcomes for people who have more

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Speaker 1: complex issues and could often lead to their own sort

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Speaker 1: of morbidity and their own sort of side effect burden.

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Speaker 1: So I was looking for solutions for my complex patients

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Speaker 1: and who have tried many different things and treatment resistant

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Speaker 1: in many ways. And I was very lucky to be

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Speaker 1: in a practice back in twenty seventeen where there was

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Speaker 1: actually a very early prescriber of medical cannabis in my clinic,

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Speaker 1: and I was open to it, and he showed me

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Speaker 1: how to actually do the application. And my first patient

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Speaker 1: was a veteran who you know, being shot in the

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Speaker 1: Middle East somewhere and had complex issues around pain and

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Speaker 1: PTSD and was really struggling to reintegrate back into severe

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Speaker 1: and life, and you know, he was affecting his relationships,

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Speaker 1: and he was leaning too heavily on alcohol, and we

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Speaker 1: didn't really have anything else to go for, so we

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Speaker 1: trialed some medical cannabis with him, just a balanced oil

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Speaker 1: to try and regulate his sleep patterns, and had wonderful

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Speaker 1: improvements in his sleep, in in his PTSD symptoms, improvements

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Speaker 1: in his pain control. And then I tried using medical

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Speaker 1: cannabis with a few other patients within the clinic, and

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Speaker 1: some had profoundly beneficial results and others had you know,

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Speaker 1: marginal sort of improvements. Others had some side effects without improvements,

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Speaker 1: And at the time, there was no education or training

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Speaker 1: around this medicine, which is very novel at that point

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Speaker 1: in time, and it is still quite a novel treatment.

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Speaker 1: And then discovered through trying to understand how these medicines

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Speaker 1: worked the end of cannabinoid system, and the more I

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Speaker 1: delved into it, the more fascinated I became, and the

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Speaker 1: more I couldn't understand and how this is not the

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Speaker 1: foundational knowledge upon which all other sort of systematics sort

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Speaker 1: of knowledge that we learned through medical schools was built.

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Speaker 1: And so I've been trying to upskill and learn more,

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Speaker 1: and then from what I've learned, educate others on this

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Speaker 1: really importance of the system and then how to modulate

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Speaker 1: it to help promote health and well being because this

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Speaker 1: is a complex system for complex patients and complex diseases,

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Speaker 1: and that's what most patients really really are in many ways.

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Speaker 3: Can I just double click on that, actually, because you

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Speaker 3: bring up a really interesting point which I think there's

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Speaker 3: a limitation of Western medicine and Western science in general,

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Speaker 3: because we have this Newtonian Cartesian worldview and science where

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Speaker 3: we break things down into its smallest component part, which

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Speaker 3: often necessities and medically starts going down at a cellular

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Speaker 3: level and understanding stuff from that component, which is obviously

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Speaker 3: given and us great knowledge. But then when it comes

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Speaker 3: to interventions, I think you alluded to it there. It

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Speaker 3: misses out the fact that we are a complex, equal

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Speaker 3: system and that there are very few conditions that just

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Speaker 3: are targeted on one little tiny part of the body.

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Speaker 3: Tell us why you see, you know, give us your

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Speaker 3: opinion on that, and why there is often so much

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Speaker 3: core morbidities that pieces present.

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Speaker 1: With yeah, so on that you know, people are sort

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Speaker 1: of dynamic, constantly sort of changing. So and most of

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Speaker 1: the receptors you know that you know medications might be targeting,

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Speaker 1: Our cells that medications might be targeting have multiple and

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Speaker 1: varied roles you know, throughout the body, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and there's a whole bunch of sort of epigenetic and

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Speaker 1: dynamic changes that are ongoing all the time. So to

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Speaker 1: look at something under the Petri dish, you know, at

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Speaker 1: a single sailor sort of type sort of model, it's

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Speaker 1: never really going to translate into the complex organis that

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Speaker 1: we are as sort of humans. And I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of that science, that deep knowledge around what the

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Speaker 1: activity is at a certain sort of sealer level provides

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Speaker 1: us with some reassurance and confidence when we're using these

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Speaker 1: powerful tools, but whether it is actually telling the real

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Speaker 1: story of what's going on within the body, I think

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Speaker 1: is not necessarily true from my perspective. In regards to

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Speaker 1: looking at patients developing multiple comorbidities, a lot of that

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Speaker 1: comes down to the endocannabinoid system's role in the progression

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Speaker 1: and the development of disease. And so this is a

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Speaker 1: system that works on regulating our internal environment. It's the

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Speaker 1: master homeostatic regulatory system. Yeah, yeah, And so as it's

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Speaker 1: placed under increase of stresses and load with deteriorating sort

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Speaker 1: of health, then it becomes unable to keep up with

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Speaker 1: the demands that are placed upon it. And if our

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Speaker 1: main internal balancing systems aren't able to keep up with

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Speaker 1: the demands, then more things be come out of balance

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Speaker 1: and we start developing issues across other physiological sort of

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Speaker 1: domains and other things will start cropping up. So I

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Speaker 1: often see in a lot of doctors would see this

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Speaker 1: out there in the community that a patient will come

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Speaker 1: in with a particular condition and they'll be managing for

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Speaker 1: a period of time and they'll be you know, they'll

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Speaker 1: be struggling through and struggling through and then something, you know,

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Speaker 1: another factor, another stress that will be placed upon their system,

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Speaker 1: and you know, the straw that breaks the camels back,

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Speaker 1: so to speak. And then things start unraveling and they

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Speaker 1: sleep becomes disregulated, Then their mood becomes disregulated, they start

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Speaker 1: becoming metabolically disregulated. They start getting sort of obesity, diabetes,

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Speaker 1: and a range of other things. And in my opinion,

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Speaker 1: all of these, you know, comorbid conditions have a central

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Speaker 1: linking system. That is, if we can support it and

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Speaker 1: tonify it in a positive way, then we can help

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Speaker 1: across these myriad of domains that are becoming disregulated.

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Speaker 3: You just kind of preempted my next question was, you know,

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Speaker 3: having listened to your talk, but my eyes really lit

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Speaker 3: up when you talked about the role of the endocannabinoid

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Speaker 3: system in homeostasis in the body. So, for our listeners

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Speaker 3: who may not be well versed on this, let's talk

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Speaker 3: a little bit about homeostasis. Because the body's got there's

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Speaker 3: so many things that it tightly tightly regulates, right from

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Speaker 3: our blood sugar to our blood pressure, to our pH

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Speaker 3: to our hormones, to our temperature, give people a sense

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Speaker 3: of how important this internal homeostasis actually is. And then

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Speaker 3: the second part of the question is is it just

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Speaker 3: the endocannabinoid system that is responsible for running at or

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Speaker 3: is there a number of different systems that interact with

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Speaker 3: the endocannabinoid system for homeostasis A big question and it

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Speaker 3: goes podcast of an entire podcast on that food.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So, look, the body needs to be finally trained

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Speaker 1: all the time to make sure it's functioning, it's optimum

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Speaker 1: in the environment that it finds itself. And I think

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Speaker 1: there's you know, there's homeostasis, which is that really tight

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Speaker 1: you know, regulation of things like the acid base, you know,

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Speaker 1: pH balance with it within the body, which you know,

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Speaker 1: if it goes outside of a very finite sort of

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Speaker 1: set parameter, then it leads to catastrophic consequences. I think

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Speaker 1: where the endocannabinoid system sort of fits in is more

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Speaker 1: of an allostatic tool, which is.

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Speaker 3: The just on my next bloody question, but anyway, go aheads.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's the it's the capacity to maintain dynamic

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Speaker 1: equilibrium between you in a state that's constantly shifting and changing,

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Speaker 1: and that needs to occur to allow us to adapt

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Speaker 1: to many different sort of circumstances and environments. If we

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Speaker 1: were if we had to be so tightly controlled that

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Speaker 1: we were only you know, within these very finite set parameters,

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Speaker 1: we would only be able to live in a very

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Speaker 1: finite set of circumstances. And as we know, humans can

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Speaker 1: survive and you know, in a range of different sort

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Speaker 1: of environ it's you know, have people sort of in

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Speaker 1: outer space, and so we have to be able to

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Speaker 1: continually adapt and change, and it needs to be dynamic,

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Speaker 1: but there does need to be an optimum way that

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Speaker 1: our bodies are responding in all of these different environments,

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Speaker 1: and the endocannabinoid system fine tunes this process so it's

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Speaker 1: not evoking all of the change. It's like we have

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Speaker 1: all these opposing networks, a myriad of opposing networks within

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Speaker 1: the body. And so you know, say with something like inflammation,

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Speaker 1: you know, too much inflammation can cause injury and pain

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Speaker 1: and disease. It also is necessary to fight off infections

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Speaker 1: and to help with healing and repair and arrange of

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Speaker 1: different things. And so the same process can be positive

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Speaker 1: or negative depending on the situation that finds itself. So

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Speaker 1: the body needs to have a sort of a fine

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Speaker 1: tuning feedback system that make sure that the body's response

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Speaker 1: is an appropriate one to the insult or the stressor

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Speaker 1: that has been placed upon it. And it's this fine

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Speaker 1: tuning sort of processes where the endocannabinoid system, you know,

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Speaker 1: is the main process that makes this sort have happen.

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Speaker 1: They've done studies where they you know, knocked out the

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Speaker 1: you know, the endogenous endocannabinoid system or the or the

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Speaker 1: receptors in mice in the past, and it doesn't kill them.

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Speaker 1: They just have a very miserable existence. The you know,

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Speaker 1: the depressed, they feel pain more strongly. They're you know,

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Speaker 1: li in motivation that sleeps this regulated and arrange of

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Speaker 1: different things. So it's it's it's the system that helps

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Speaker 1: us reach our best best potential in many ways.

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Speaker 3: So if we take that into stuff that I'm more

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Speaker 3: familiar with with alastatic lord, So you're talking about other

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Speaker 3: siss and alostatic lord basically around stress and those chronic

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Speaker 3: stressors that then increase our stimuliate adaptations in the body

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Speaker 3: that will So there's the end of cannabinoid system. Then,

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Speaker 3: from our understanding what you said, it comes in to

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Speaker 3: help the body to rebalance, and there's sometimes does that

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Speaker 3: mean balancing at a different level, or is it often

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Speaker 3: try and then to just come back to a natural

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Speaker 3: level of homeostasis.

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Speaker 1: It's more trying to help the system find or rebalance.

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Speaker 1: So it's the adaptation to the environment, which so it's

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Speaker 1: not if the body's trying to adapt in a positive way.

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Speaker 1: It's not going to say, I'm going to know, bring

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Speaker 1: you back to what you've always been, because that's where

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Speaker 1: my set parameters are. It is a much more sort

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Speaker 1: of dynamic and intuitive types of a process, and so

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Speaker 1: it's a cellular communications system within the body that is

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Speaker 1: helping to regulate all of these other intricate processes that

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Speaker 1: we have going on. A good way to sort of

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Speaker 1: try and conceptualize it is, you know, your body is

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Speaker 1: like a complex symphony orchestra. We have all of these

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Speaker 1: amazing sort of pieces playing these intricate and really sort

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Speaker 1: of detailed sort of parts. But if they're doing it

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Speaker 1: out of time, out of sync, what we're going to

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Speaker 1: have is this horrible and discordant noise. So the endocannabinoid

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Speaker 1: system isn't playing any of those parts. It's there. It's

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Speaker 1: making sure that they're working together at the right volume,

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Speaker 1: at the right tempo. Each part is playing when it's

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Speaker 1: supposed to, so that we can actually create this beautiful

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Speaker 1: symphony that we have with this complex human beings that

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Speaker 1: we are.

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Speaker 3: That makes perfect sense and jump into your hova.

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Speaker 2: What a role that.

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Speaker 3: Is when we take into all the different systems that

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Speaker 3: are in the body. So before we dig into practical

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Speaker 3: implications of the endocannabinoid system, there's different types of receptors.

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Speaker 3: I remember from your talk you talked about CB one

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Speaker 3: and CB two receptors, So how do they differ in

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Speaker 3: their function and location throughout the body.

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Speaker 1: I guess the evolution of our understanding of the endocannabinoid

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Speaker 1: system came from trying to understand how THHC, these plant

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Speaker 1: based cannabinoid was trying to have an impact on the

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Speaker 1: body and why it was causing the intoxicating effects and

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Speaker 1: the physiological changes that were all sort of familiar with.

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Speaker 1: And so when they were looking at that process, they

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Speaker 1: saw that THHC was actually binding to these receptors you know,

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Speaker 1: on the cell surface, and the first ones that were

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Speaker 1: found were the CB one receptors. So the CB one

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Speaker 1: receptors the main receptors within the central nervous system, and

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Speaker 1: the brain. Like when I first started learning about the

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Speaker 1: endocannabinoid system, I thought, oh, it must just be this

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Speaker 1: minor system, otherwise we would have all been sort of

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Speaker 1: taught about it. But the CB one receptor is you know,

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Speaker 1: the most abundant G protein coupled receptor within the brain.

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Speaker 1: You know, oh really, yep, wow. You know, all of

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Speaker 1: the other sort of seven trans membrane G protein coupled

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Speaker 1: receptors combined probably have about the same amount as the

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Speaker 1: CB one receptors.

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Speaker 3: Which then suggests that it's doing a massive role, massive role.

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Speaker 1: It's it's everywhere, and it's not just on the on

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Speaker 1: the cell surface. There's you know, in more recent years

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Speaker 1: we've found that it's actually intracelar as well, within intracellar

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Speaker 1: organelles and helping the mitochondria like regulate the cell cycle

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Speaker 1: and cellular respirations. So it is not just these interaction

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Speaker 1: but tween cells, but also regulating things within those cells

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Speaker 1: as well. So it's got an absolutely huge role. But

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Speaker 1: CB one is yea predominantly brain central nervous system, but

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Speaker 1: it is in a range of peripheral sort of organs

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Speaker 1: as well, in varying sort of densities and even though

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Speaker 1: these different so in all of these different areas, the

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Speaker 1: activation of CB one will have slightly different effects on

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Speaker 1: where it is and where it's located on that cell,

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Speaker 1: but the aim is always the same. It's the fine

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Speaker 1: tune and balance, and it does this by having this

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Speaker 1: retrograde signaling sort of process. So normally, you know, most

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Speaker 1: neurotransmitters produced and they're held within a neuron and then

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Speaker 1: they're released when that sort of impulse to be released occurs,

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Speaker 1: and they have this antio grade sort of activation where

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Speaker 1: they move from a pre sign addict to a possone

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Speaker 1: appdicts that a neuron activate the neuron and it causes

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Speaker 1: downstream effects. When that happens, there's a bunch of calcium

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Speaker 1: that sort of goes into the neuron and that causes

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Speaker 1: these endocannabinoids to be created, and they're created from the

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Speaker 1: cell membrane itself, from the phosphate lipid bilayer. And then

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Speaker 1: because that cell's been activated, it releases endocannabinoids and it

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Speaker 1: moves back in a retrograde fashion and it closes. It

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Speaker 1: starts shutting down the calcium influx into that cell and

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Speaker 1: reduces the release of those neurotransmitters. So it's a sort

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Speaker 1: of a local negative feedback system. So when a system

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Speaker 1: is bank sort of doesn't matter what it is really

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Speaker 1: when it's being overly activated, the endocannabinoid system is trying

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Speaker 1: to sort of tone it down, turn it down, and

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Speaker 1: make sure that it's not becoming over zealous and doing

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Speaker 1: its job too well.

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Speaker 2: That just stimulated a thought, So let's tick something like

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Speaker 2: SSRIs are sn ris So for.

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Speaker 3: The people listening, these are drugs that are used for

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Speaker 3: mood disorders. Because they are having an impact on the

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Speaker 3: between the pre and the pulse synoptic neuron, do they

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Speaker 3: then influence the endocannabinoids them in the post synoptic neuron.

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Speaker 1: Look, I'd say anything that's causing a physiological disruption of

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Speaker 1: any sense is going to be you know, is going

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Speaker 1: to be affecting the endocannabinoid system, and so the vice

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Speaker 1: vice versa. I don't have specific examples in regards to

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Speaker 1: those to those medications, no, but.

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Speaker 2: It just you cause kind of answer my question because

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Speaker 2: one of my questions was going to be what are

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Speaker 2: the what are.

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Speaker 3: The substrips for for producing or the raw.

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Speaker 2: Materials for the endocannabinoid system. Now, you said that in

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Speaker 2: the post synoptic cell, it's that it was the calcium

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Speaker 2: release that stimuliates it.

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Speaker 3: But do we know, like for instance, you know, certain

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Speaker 3: neurotransmitters rely on amino acids that we get from the diet.

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Speaker 3: Is there something similar going on with the endocannabinoid system

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Speaker 3: that it doesn't have raw materials that we need to

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Speaker 3: be consuming.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, really really common common raw materials as well. So

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Speaker 1: they come from polyunsaturated fatty acids, as poly ansaturated fatty acids,

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Speaker 1: cocdonic acid, you know, derivatives predominantly. So I think one

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Speaker 1: of the issues with the endocannabinoid system was that it

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Speaker 1: was you know, it was associated with cannabis, and therefore

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Speaker 1: it's uptake in regards to general education has been the

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Speaker 1: stigma and the bias of cannabis that has influenced its

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Speaker 1: sort of take up. It could have been, in course

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Speaker 1: an a cozonoid signaling system or the master homeo asthetic

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Speaker 1: regulatory system, and it probably would have had some better

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Speaker 1: uptake if it wasn't so closely associated with cannabis. But yes,

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Speaker 1: the precursor es central fatty acids are there within that

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Speaker 1: sort of you know cell membrane that stimulates the bunch

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Speaker 1: of enzymes that then sort of you know, create these endocannabinoids.

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Speaker 1: They're on demand, as required, and then they're released, they're activated,

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Speaker 1: they're taken back inside the cell, and they're broken down.

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Speaker 1: So it's this They don't sort of linger and sit

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Speaker 1: around for a prolonged period of time. So it's very

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Speaker 1: specific and targeted to that area of need.

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Speaker 3: Okay, cool and very interesting, right, So let's not get

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Speaker 3: into that's scat cannabi a lot of the gig So.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say, we spoke about the CB

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Speaker 1: one receptor, but then the CB two, sorry, the other

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Speaker 1: one there, which is predominantly in the immune system, so

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Speaker 1: mainly mainly in splain and immune cells, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it's modulating the the you know, we've got the CB

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Speaker 1: one predominantly modulating the nervous system and cbdo predominantly modulating

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Speaker 1: the immune system. But then these both of these receptors,

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Speaker 1: you know, the nervous system and the immune system, are

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Speaker 1: in all other organs and tissues as well, and they're

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Speaker 1: often there instead of varying varying amounts in varying ratios,

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Speaker 1: these cannabinoid receptors, you have different densities in different parts

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Speaker 1: of the body, depending I guess on how tightly regulated

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Speaker 1: those systems need to be, but they, you know, the

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Speaker 1: role is generally the same, is to try and maintain balance.

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Speaker 3: And hence why it has such widespread effects on human

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Speaker 3: health because it's intimately involved in the function of the

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Speaker 3: nervous system, the central nervous system, and the breeding as

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Speaker 3: well as the immune system, which is pretty bloody significant, right,

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Speaker 3: And you mentioned in the mitochondria because as you were

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Speaker 3: as you were talking about but I was wondering, just

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Speaker 3: given my very superficient knowledge about the impact on so

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Speaker 3: many different diseases and processes, I thought it's got to

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Speaker 3: be interacting with the mitochondria. It's somewhere just give bart

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Speaker 3: because we recently did a podcast on the mitochondria, did

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Speaker 3: a Deep Dave on the mitochondria, so our listeners will

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Speaker 3: be quite familiar with the importance of the mitochondria in

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Speaker 3: both physical and mental health. So talk to just just

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Speaker 3: a little bit about the interactions between the endocannabinoid system

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Speaker 3: and the mitochondria.

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Speaker 1: Look, I think this is an area that you know

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Speaker 1: needs a lot of extra developed development. But I'm pretty

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Speaker 1: sure you know plays the same role as it does

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Speaker 1: does elsewhere in the body, and that's to try and

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Speaker 1: sort of help with those adaptations to the mitochondria, to

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Speaker 1: sort of improve the function of the cell, to make

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Speaker 1: sure it's going through appropriate sort of you know, cell

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Speaker 1: cycle sort of processes. You know, it's utilizing energy in

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Speaker 1: a sort of you know, dynamic and in sort of

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Speaker 1: flexible sort of way. It's an area that I'm interested in,

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Speaker 1: but really does require a bit off more in depth

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Speaker 1: to the research before I can give you a specific

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Speaker 1: e system.

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Speaker 3: It's just another instrument than the orchestra that it conducts, right, That's.

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Speaker 1: Right then, I think, you know, we are sort of

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Speaker 1: saying how important the mitochondry are in regards to health,

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Speaker 1: disease and the longevity and life cycle and metabolic function

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Speaker 1: and a range of other things. So I'm going to

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Speaker 1: have to listen to your podcast and upskill myself on

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Speaker 1: the mitochondrial function.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, look, it's pretty fascinated podcast, But let's not talk

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Speaker 3: about the impact on our health. So you mentioned the

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Speaker 3: immune system. Just take us on a bit of a

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Speaker 3: deeper exploration of the end of cannabinoid system and its

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Speaker 3: impact on overall immune health, and I guess a sub

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Speaker 3: question is do we see it playing a role in

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Speaker 3: autoimmune conditions, either the pathology or the resolving of them.

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Speaker 1: So once again it's this balance, isn't it, between overall

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Speaker 1: devation and underactivation of the immune system, which is typical

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Speaker 1: of disease. So we've got autoimmune conditions where there's an

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Speaker 1: excessive immune response to non threatening sort of andigens and

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Speaker 1: self cells, and so that's an increase of inflammation. And

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Speaker 1: people who have immune deficiencies who can't fight off infections

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Speaker 1: and viruses and different set of diseases because their immune

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Speaker 1: system is at such a sort of low level, And

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Speaker 1: the endocannabinoid system is really sort of important in that

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Speaker 1: sort of adaptive sort of immune response and the body's

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Speaker 1: understanding what is a threat and what is not and

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Speaker 1: to help regulate that process reduce the inflammatory sort of

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Speaker 1: mediators that might be causing excess inflammatory response. So the

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Speaker 1: majority of the time it is an immune immune modulating

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Speaker 1: sort of experience and anti inflammatory sort of effect that

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Speaker 1: activation of the endocannabinoid system has In areas it's an

434
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 1: adaptive response as well, so the body will start expressing

435
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 1: more CB two receptors in the areas where there's an

436
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 1: in to help improve that sort of healing and repair process,

437
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 1: so it's not the static, static thing that's going on

438
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 1: in regards to autoimmune conditions. I think it's incredibly important,

439
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 1: not just because of how it affects the immune system,

440
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 1: but because of how it affects the gut as well

441
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 1: and does regulate in many ways the function of the gut,

442
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 1: the secretion of fluids, the motility, sort of the healing

443
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,879
Speaker 1: and repair the actual type junctions as well, so reducing

444
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 1: the exposure to inflammatory mediators that lead to that cascade

445
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 1: that lead to autoimmune conditions.

446
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 3: So, and just to clarify out a bit of depth

447
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 3: of that, for our listener's gym, about eighty percent of

448
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,439
Speaker 3: our immune system resides in the gut, and so we

449
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 3: know that when you get gut despiosis or our leaky

450
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 3: gut as people will know, it has that that can

451
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 3: trigger auto immune conditions. And so not only is the

452
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 3: endocannabinoid system helping to regulate the immune system, but it's

453
00:24:55,560 --> 00:25:00,640
Speaker 3: also helping upstream in terms of that in protecting basically

454
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 3: looking after the health of the gut. Is that correct?

455
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 1: It is correct, and so there's even an interaction with

456
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 1: these you know, the microbes within the body and they

457
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: can produce endocannabinoid like compounds. Ash interesting part of the

458
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 1: you know, part of the way that they communicate with

459
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: us is through is through these endocannabinoid likes that the mediators,

460
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 1: so these yes, is very much involved in that sort

461
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: of gut brain body you know access that is being

462
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: recognized as I guess one of the most important sort

463
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: of access for health and diseases.

464
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, both physical and mental. I think we're starting to

465
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 3: see that gut brian immune axis is like hugely important.

466
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 3: So just stay on the on the topics of autoimmune

467
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 3: conditions then, So has there been any research done on

468
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 3: the efficacy of medical cannabis for people with autoimmune conditions

469
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 3: or is it more for things like pin our inflammation

470
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,120
Speaker 3: and those sorts of things. I know there's an interaction

471
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 3: between those.

472
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 1: But look from a clinical perspective, and I've treated many

473
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 1: thousands of patients, there are different sort of cannabinoids that

474
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: can be utilized to really help support patients with pain,

475
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 1: with stress reducing sort of inflammation and have positive effects

476
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: on their sort of immune markers as well. There's plenty

477
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: of research out there from a preclinical and animal studies

478
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: sort the model in regards to the endocannabinoid system and

479
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: cannabinoids and how they can be useful in these types

480
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: of conditions, but a lot more sort of you know,

481
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 1: large scale randomized control trials necessary to give us more

482
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: definitive sort of data.

483
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:40,439
Speaker 2: But from a clinical perspective, have you seen people with

484
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 2: and autoimmune conditions that you're using medical cannabis with them

485
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,719
Speaker 2: having positive effects not just on PAN but on some

486
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 2: of their symptomology as well.

487
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,479
Speaker 1: Yes, I have, Yeah, definitely seen some positive effects. I

488
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: think there's so many who're talking about cannabis as a therapy.

489
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: There's so many different cannabinoids within the cannabis plant, and

490
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 1: they all have slightly different sort of effects, and I

491
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 1: think we're still scratching the surface of what we can

492
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 1: achieve with these different sort of combinations of cannabinoids to

493
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: be more sort of targeted for certain disease states. So, look,

494
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: I have seen positive effects. I've seen you know, people

495
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 1: have had improvements in their pain, they sleep, the inflammation,

496
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: their stress. But I wouldn't say clearly that yes, using

497
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 1: medical cannabis is a great treatment for X y Z

498
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,199
Speaker 1: autoimmune condition, but it can be a useful adjunct for

499
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 1: people who are going through those other therapies.

500
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 3: Okay, that makes sense.

501
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 2: So let's not turn back to the Brian and the

502
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 2: central nervous system and talk about the role of the

503
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 2: end of cannabinoid system on mood and particularly stress and anxiety,

504
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 2: because I from our conversation to I'm suspecting it's playing

505
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 2: a significant role there.

506
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 3: And take our listeners through what we know. What's the

507
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 3: current state of knowledge in.

508
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: This in regards to sort of stress and anxiety.

509
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 3: And stress anxiety a mood and generally and the end

510
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 3: ofcannabinoid system and high and interferces with those things.

511
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, look, it's regulating all of our neurotransmitter sort

512
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 1: of function in many ways. There's you know, these opposing networks,

513
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: opposing sort of neurotransmitter systems. The endocannabinoid system, especially those

514
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: CIBBI one receptors sort of more dense in certain parts

515
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 1: of the brain that control mood and anxiety and the

516
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: fear response. So there's a high density of cib one

517
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 1: receptors in things like that anegdalla and the hippocampus as

518
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 1: well as you know, the cerebral cortex. So being able

519
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 1: to rationalize that emotion to understand whether it's what the

520
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: appropriate response to that might be. So it is regulating

521
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: those areas. There's high densities of the CIBI one receptors,

522
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: specifically on the gabonergic sort of receptors, which is the

523
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: main inhibitory sort of neurotransmitter system within the brain, but

524
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 1: also you know, it regulates serotonin and dopamine, then glutamate

525
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: as well to a less lesser extent than GABA. So

526
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: it is regulating all of those essential neurotransmitters within the

527
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: brain that you know involved in that stress response. But

528
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: the stress response is not just occurring within the brain.

529
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: You know, there's the parasympathetic and sympathetics that are nervous

530
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: systems being involved. And there is a high density of

531
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: CB one receptors in the vagus nerve and also interesting

532
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 1: in the paraventricular nucleus. I think it is around the

533
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: area that sort of is where the cortisol and or

534
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: the precursor sort of hormones that release cortisols that act

535
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: on the adrenal glands and the endocanabinoid system is involved

536
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: at all of those parts of the pathway, but one

537
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: of the things I think with depression is that we're

538
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: starting to realize that it's not necessarily a deficiency in serotonin.

539
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 2: That is, I think it's nigh.

540
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 3: I actually interviewed one of the authors on that seminal

541
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 3: paper that completely debunked the cerotonin theory of Mark Matson. Actually,

542
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 3: I think he presented the same conference we were at.

543
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: Okay, all right. Unfortunately I didn't to go to as

544
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: many talks as I would have liked at the conference,

545
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: but there was some fantastic speakers. But I think what

546
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: it really is, it's the capacity for the brain to

547
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: sort of adapt and adapt and change, so to create

548
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,959
Speaker 1: new pathways and memories and neurogenesis around that sort of

549
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: hypocampal regions of the brain. I think that's one of

550
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: the key features of depression, is there's inability to create

551
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: these create these new pathways, and the endocannabinoid system is

552
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: heavily involved in instead of neuronoplasticity and sunaptogenesis and neurogenesis

553
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: as well and creating those new sort of pathways. So

554
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: it is strongly linked to these to mental health conditions.

555
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 3: I remember just when you said that about neurogenesis. I

556
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 3: remember years ago when I'm very very light on the

557
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 3: detail because I read a resoarch paper years ago showing

558
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 3: that people who had recreationally smoked cannabis seemed to have

559
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 3: less Alzheimer's disease, and they thought it was because of

560
00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 3: the impact on neurrogenesis. So, does medical cannabis then has

561
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 3: a pub a positive impact on neurogenesis or is it

562
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 3: is it a bit more complicated than that.

563
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: Look, I believe it can you know, have a positive

564
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: impact on ont of neurogenesis when used appropriately, But if

565
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: people are abusing you know, high concentration of THHC and

566
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: disregion anything.

567
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 3: There's limits.

568
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 2: There's yeah, there's limits, and it's it's like many things

569
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 2: that come into the body. There's Goldilocks effect, right.

570
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's all about finding it's all about finding

571
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: the sweet spot, you know, especially with with THHC, which

572
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: is the one of the most powerful but also one

573
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: of the most risky sort of cannabinoids within within the

574
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: set of cannabis plant and it directly it has a

575
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: lot of direct activity at those you know, CB one

576
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: receptors and and so through through that can have powerful

577
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: positive change if used it the right doses in the

578
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: right patient but if overused and abused, it can lead

579
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 1: to further dysregulation of an out of balance system, which

580
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: is going to be going to be negative. But the

581
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: compounds themselves can have neuroprotective sort of properties and anti

582
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: inflammatory and antioxidant sort of properties as well. I think

583
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: you know there's been some observational sort of studies that

584
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: have shown that people who have had head injuries while

585
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,239
Speaker 1: while using cannabis may have been more likely to have

586
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: that head injury because of the cannabis, but actually had

587
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: better protection, be better outcomes than say, if someone who

588
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: is just using alcohol without the sort of combination of

589
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: the two, so reducing the insult to the brain that

590
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 1: occurs through those traumatics at the injuries. So there's a

591
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: lot of signals to suggest that yes, cannabis could be utilized,

592
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 1: if used appropriately, to help people with neurodegenitive sort of

593
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: changes and improve brain function in those types of conditions

594
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: like Alzheimer's.

595
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 3: Interesting you mentioned there particularly about TC right, which is

596
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 3: is the one that when taking and excess can have

597
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 3: negative effects.

598
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 2: There's this and I'm not sure whether there's research on

599
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: this or or it's maybe just your opinion, but we

600
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 2: know that the cannabis that's available these days has got

601
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 2: much much higher to at C T it's TSC concentrations.

602
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 2: Then when me and you we were youngsters smoking the.

603
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 3: Od joint, right, is this the driver of the increased

604
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 3: risk of psychosis that we see, particularly with teenagers and cannabis.

605
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 3: And by the way, I'm not suggesting that they are all

606
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 3: teenagers with cannabis can develop psychosis, but it does seem

607
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 3: to be a significant risk factor both psychosists and schizophrenia

608
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 3: in teenagers who start And is that because of the

609
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 3: developing brain? So so two questions, One is it is

610
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 3: it the TTC concentration it's doing this? And b why teenagers?

611
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 3: Is it because of that? There's so much development happening

612
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 3: that that disruption of the endocannabinoid system can have wide

613
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 3: spread effects?

614
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: Really good question in when are we doing a podcast

615
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: ontoon with a with a psychiatrist myself? Actually, but look,

616
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: the endocannabinoid system is so important to the maturation of

617
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: the of the brain, and the brain doesn't stop maturing

618
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: till the age of twenty five.

619
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 3: We're sixty five for some people.

620
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, some people never get there at all. But

621
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:10,800
Speaker 1: women it's a bit it's a bit a bit earlier

622
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: around seat of twenty two, you know, that kind of age.

623
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: And so this, like the optimization of the endocannabinoid system

624
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: through this time is incredibly important to make sure that

625
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,919
Speaker 1: all the neural networks and pathways are at their best,

626
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 1: and it sets us up, you know, for life through

627
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: this sort of period. You know, it might it seems

628
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: like there's lots of conditions that have, you know, at

629
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: their core, a dysfunction of the endocannabinoid system.

630
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 3: You know.

631
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: My theory and this is just my theory, is that

632
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: you know, people who are sort of you know, who

633
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 1: are prone to developing a psychotic illness or schizophrenia likely

634
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: have a dysregulated endocannabinoid system. Many of many of them

635
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:53,359
Speaker 1: will started office, right, many of.

636
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 3: Them, because it's a master regulator of so many things.

637
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 3: That's that's that's, that's.

638
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: Right, and it's regulating a lot of those dopamonetic sort

639
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 1: of you know, systems and other things that are going

640
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: on there. And so a lot of people will develop

641
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: a pro joable illness. So they start you might have

642
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: some social isolation, stress, anxiety, depression, these types of things

643
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 1: that are happening before they develop a florid sort of

644
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 1: psychotic illness, and at that point in time, if things

645
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,320
Speaker 1: are you know, if they're engaging in really great behaviors

646
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: around sleep and stress reduction, and they're probably going to

647
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: rebalance their system and prevent themselves going into that more

648
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: chronic sort of psychotic illness sort of state. If they

649
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: find something like cannabis, which a lot of them will

650
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 1: be experimenting and self medicating with a range of different

651
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: sort of substances, and they find it's beneficial for a

652
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 1: lot of those things. Unfortunately, we don't have the cultural

653
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: sort of wisdom and guidance to help these teenagers understand

654
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: that there is you know, there is that Goldilock saying

655
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: that the small amount can be really profound and powerful

656
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: and beneficial, but too much is too much of a

657
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,760
Speaker 1: good thing actually is going to lead to negative health outcomes.

658
00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: So I think a lot of them use more and

659
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,240
Speaker 1: more cannaid because they think that it's helping.

660
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: Them get an initial benefit. Right, it feels good, So

661
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:06,439
Speaker 2: the theory is more should be.

662
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: Better, More should be better. They use more, and therefore

663
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,439
Speaker 1: they actually start disregulating things further, and then they're more

664
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: likely to you know, promote those symptoms or those the

665
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: dysfunction within the brain that leads to those to the

666
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 1: psychosis and those sort of symptoms. So there is a

667
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 1: correlation with the increased overactivation of those sort of receptors

668
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,919
Speaker 1: with high concentrations thatt of THHC products, things that aren't

669
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 1: sort of balanced with CBD and other neuroprotective sort of

670
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 1: you know, cannabinoids is more likely going to you know,

671
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: lead to more psychosis.

672
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 3: No, I'm a word that we do have limited time

673
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 3: because you have to get onto it. So anybody's ever

674
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 3: smoked a joint will be familiar with the munchies and

675
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 3: some forgetfulness you mentioned earlier on the impact on the

676
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 3: hippocambus and hence then the inability to form memories or

677
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 3: forgetting or recall those memories. So talk to us about

678
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 3: the role that it plays in eating and hunger and

679
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 3: then potential uses of the endocannabinoid system in this area.

680
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 1: The monov I could just go one step back in

681
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: regards to the forgetfulness, and most of the time we

682
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 1: sort of think of the forgetfulness you know that might

683
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 1: come when using something like THHC as a negative sort

684
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,399
Speaker 1: of side effect, and for a lot of people that's

685
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 1: the case, but for patients who are experiencing re experiencing

686
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 1: sort of trauma in PTSD, the forgetting of these negative

687
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 1: experiences can be really powerful and in a condition. There's

688
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: some evidence, some pretty good evidence to show that there

689
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: is a dysfunctional endocannabinoid system in those who have autism

690
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 1: spectrum disorder. And one of the things it's often that

691
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: I see that's the hardest thing for many people with

692
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: autism to deal with is the excessive overwhelm and overload

693
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,240
Speaker 1: of a whole bunch of information that they just don't

694
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: need that they can't get rid of appropriately. So they're remembering,

695
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: you know, all of these insignificant not always, but a

696
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: lot of difference that have, you know, events or occurrences

697
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 1: or details that just aren't actually helping them sort of function,

698
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 1: and that leads to complete overwhelm, and the inability to

699
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 1: forget these things is actually what's causing the dysfunction. So

700
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 1: that forgetting nature is really important in health as well.

701
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 3: And I think important for a good functioning Brian on

702
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 3: a daily basis, because we are bombarded with so many

703
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,800
Speaker 3: bits of information right taken into the brand and it

704
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 3: can process all that ship, that's right.

705
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: So we need to get get rid of the stuff

706
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 1: that doesn't set of service, and we need to be

707
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,720
Speaker 1: able to hold on to the things that are important.

708
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: And if we are scared or traumatized, we need to

709
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: have appropriate ways of extinguishing that that sort of fear response,

710
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 1: otherwise it can lead to lead to sort of issues

711
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 1: as well. So I just wanted to make that comment

712
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 1: on memory and forgetfulness, but there are other connabinoids that

713
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: can actually help with memory. But moving on to the munchies,

714
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 1: you know, so the classic, the classical munchies and that

715
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,720
Speaker 1: that is that CB one sort of activation at different

716
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 1: parts of the brain, but there's also other you know,

717
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 1: things that occur there from a metabolic sort of perspective.

718
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:10,800
Speaker 2: So there are.

719
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: Certain compounds within within cannabis as well that can actually

720
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:19,320
Speaker 1: have an antagonistic effect blocking effect at that CB one receptor.

721
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: And so there are cannabis tools that can help with

722
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: appetite suppression and improving satiiity and improving sort of you know,

723
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: blood sugar and arrange of different things there as well.

724
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 1: So the endocannabinoid system is integrally linked to metabolism, not

725
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,320
Speaker 1: just through those those sort of hunger cues, but also

726
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: through you know effects that they're sort of pancreas and

727
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: the liver and a range of other areas as well.

728
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 1: And it actually looks like that the people in an

729
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:53,760
Speaker 1: a base state have excessive production of endocannabinoids, so partly

730
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 1: there's a dysregulated endocannabinoid system there, so rather than being

731
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: low functioning, it's overfunctioning. There's belly an excess amounts of

732
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 1: a mega six essential fatty acids through you know, all

733
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: of the vegetable oils and these types of things that

734
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 1: we're getting through our packeted sort of food sources, and

735
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 1: so that's putting people into a continual sort of state

736
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 1: of being in permanent sort of you know, having the

737
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 1: permanent munchies and can.

738
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 3: Lead just an interact with leaptin at all, It does, yeah,

739
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 3: very much. So that makes perfect sense, right because leapt

740
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 3: is involved in in secession of eating as well as

741
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 3: volntary physical activity, right.

742
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: That's right. So yes, that's one of the main main

743
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 1: key hormones that it's interacting with to drive the sort

744
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: of feed forward sort of processes around sort of hedonistic

745
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 1: sort of eating patterns that were that were often seeing

746
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: so Yeah, the modulation of the endocannabinoid system through obesity

747
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 1: can be really really interesting potential to treatment for many

748
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: people too.

749
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 3: I can see just from this conversation and from your

750
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 3: awesome talk that you give why you are so excited

751
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 3: about this, And it must be like, as you get

752
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 3: into this, every time you turn over a rock, there's

753
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 3: there's like a whole ecal system under there are to explorers.

754
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 3: So tell me what are you excited about about cannabinoid

755
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:10,240
Speaker 3: research going forward? Because the potential here, given the widespread effect.

756
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 2: That the end of cannabinoid system is having on metabolism,

757
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 2: immune system, nervous system, it's got to be so exciting

758
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:22,280
Speaker 2: the potential research, but also difficult to do and probably

759
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 2: going to take a long time, I would imagine.

760
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, look, and the incentives I guess for people sort

761
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 1: of you know, studying naturally occurring compounds that can't be

762
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: patterned is often lacking when a lot of these trials

763
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 1: cost means of dollars. But the thing that really excites

764
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 1: me just from cannabis in general, is that we have

765
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 1: a complex tool to actually better treat complex, complex conditions

766
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 1: or patients with multiple sort of chrimorbidities. Because Cannabis is

767
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 1: not a panacea in any ways they perform, and it's

768
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: not always the most powerful treatment for anyone particular to

769
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 1: the condition. But if someone has five different sort of

770
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 1: ailments with sleep, they've got pain related issues, digestive issues,

771
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,359
Speaker 1: you know, anxiety, stress, whatever it might be, it might

772
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: improve each one of those, you know, ten fifteen, twenty percent,

773
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 1: and improvement across multiple domains can actually lead to significant

774
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 1: improvements in quality of life. And so therefore you've got

775
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 1: less barriers that are stopping people from engaging in a

776
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,919
Speaker 1: whole range of other health promoting activities, and you're giving

777
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: them better opportunities to do more exercise, to have more

778
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 1: meaningful social connections, to be more engaged with their family

779
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 1: and their children, and all of this has you know,

780
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: it's the combination of reducing the symptomatic burden, but then

781
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 1: getting them to engage in a whole range of other

782
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 1: activities that naturally support and upregulate their endocanabinoid system and

783
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: bring joy to their world. They can have long term,

784
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 1: profound beneficial outcomes.

785
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 3: Getwere effect right, You're talking about a classic Geitway effect

786
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 3: where it has an impact that then opens doors or

787
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 3: gets to lots of other behavior sorry impacts, that's.

788
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 1: Right, you know, like cannabis prescriptions should never be done

789
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 1: on their own, you know, just people providing cannabis access

790
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 1: I think is completely inadequate. And you know, there does

791
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 1: need to be a whole lot of education and support

792
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: and guidance to create functional and personalized set of goals.

793
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 1: You know that people are sort of working towards to

794
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,879
Speaker 1: better their health than naturally as well. But I also

795
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 1: think there's a whole Like I said, there's hundreds of

796
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,240
Speaker 1: different cannabinoids out there. They all have slightly different effects.

797
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 1: We can create more specific and targeted medicines for different conditions,

798
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 1: you know, down the track, and reduce the amount of

799
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: THHC that people are using as well, because even though

800
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 1: that's a powerful medicine used in high risk individuals or

801
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: the wrong amounts, it can be sort of problematic as well,

802
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: and it's an outlier. It's very much an outlier in

803
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: the cannabis plan, and that it's the only really intoxicating

804
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 1: sort of compound within cannabis. The rest of them are

805
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,839
Speaker 1: work through so many different sort of mechanisms of action,

806
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: but they're very generally, very safe and have more side

807
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: benefits than side effects, which you don't, which is hard

808
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 1: for many medical practitioners to think about because we always

809
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: think of drugs that work across many domains as being

810
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: dirty drugs or causing a lot of increase sort of

811
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:08,839
Speaker 1: side effects, and we just don't sort of see that

812
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: with cannabis and you know, and other herbal medicines in

813
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: many ways too.

814
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,919
Speaker 2: Jim, Sorry, I could continue this for you just because

815
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:17,879
Speaker 2: it's so interesting, but I.

816
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 3: Know you do have to go. So where can people

817
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 3: go to find out more? So, whether it's whether it's

818
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:24,800
Speaker 3: a GP.

819
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 2: That wants a bit more education around this, or just

820
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 2: whether it's individuals, where can they goal to find out

821
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 2: more about you and what you do and the Heyday

822
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 2: clinic and stuff like that.

823
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, so look in regards to of myself, Yeah, we've

824
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: got a website hedamedical dot com and that's you know,

825
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: puts people in contact with our sort of adoptors. But

826
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 1: there's also different blogs and information there about around these

827
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 1: sort of endocannabinoid system for prescribers. You know, I've put

828
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 1: together a lot of prescriber education sort of tools. Like

829
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 1: I said, we have our own sort of podcasts that's

830
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,720
Speaker 1: only allowed to be sent to healthcare professionals because otherwise

831
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: it's seen as advertising here in Australia. But there are many,

832
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 1: many great podcasts out there. Curious about Cannabis is one,

833
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,399
Speaker 1: you know, it's a US based podcast that I've got

834
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: a lot of really good information out of myself. There's

835
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: a couple of North American clinicians that have you know,

836
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 1: YouTube videos that are very informative as well. So people

837
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: like doctor Dustin Sulak and doctor Bonnie Goldstein as well

838
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: as doctor Ethan Russo they you know, have been working

839
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 1: with these medicines for for a long time and are

840
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,839
Speaker 1: very much holistic in their approach towards prescribing cannabis as well.

841
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,800
Speaker 1: So look up some of those ogs if you're wanting

842
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: to get some more information.

843
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,399
Speaker 3: Awesome, Jim, thanks for your time. That's bloody awesome. It's

844
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 3: really opened my eyes to a pretty bloody important system

845
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 3: in the human body and the human Brian. So I

846
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 3: will be going and exploring a little bit more for one.

847
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 3: Thanks Jim. Cheers, Baul, Hope we'll do it again sometimes. Indeed,

848
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:53,760
Speaker 3: all right, anyway,