1 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Fearing Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Almer. 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: Australians are interested in investing in crypto, but still lack 3 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: the confidence and knowledge to do it. New research by 4 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: Finder and global crypto exchange Coinbase shows that not understanding 5 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: how crypto works is still the major barrier to investing. 6 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,279 Speaker 1: It also shows the need for regulatory certainty, with many 7 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: believing the federal government is too slow in implementing regulation 8 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: in a rapidly evolving ecosystem. John O. Laughlin is the 9 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: managing director apec ats coinbas, the largest cryptocurrency exchange in 10 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: the US. Remember this is general information only and you 11 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: should always seek professional advice before making investment decisions. John, 12 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: welcome back to Fearing Greed. 13 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 2: Great to be back, Sean. I think this is our 14 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 2: third session with you and the team and delighted to 15 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 2: dive into this really exciting report, some of the first 16 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 2: proprietary research on the space for a long time. 17 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: Fantastic. Okay, so let's jump into it. The Consumer Cryptocurrency 18 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: We Report is a big survey three thousand people across 19 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: the country. Broadly, there's an appetit out there for more 20 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: information about crypto. 21 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,479 Speaker 2: John, Yeah, did, Sean. I think we've seen this even 22 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 2: prior to the Crypto Winter. I think we did our 23 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 2: first podcast with you, we were relying on a very 24 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 2: limited amount of bespoke proprietary research on the space. So 25 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,119 Speaker 2: I think that's why this co branded with the Finer 26 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 2: team is even more kind of pressing and important. Number 27 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 2: one thing still at the top of everyone's mind is 28 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 2: trust and having that reliability and ensuring that the exchange 29 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 2: or that the group that you're operating with, the broker, 30 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 2: et cetera, is trustworthy and reliable and there's going to 31 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 2: be recourse if things happen untoward events, and that's something 32 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 2: that's very much kind of in the coinbase wheelhouse as 33 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 2: a public listed company. So that kind of factor has increased, 34 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 2: and that's not surprising given the post COVID era and 35 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 2: the absolute kind of tidal wave of scams across all things, 36 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 2: whether it's platforms, social engineering, telco's banks, neobanks, et cetera. 37 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 2: But that's something that we take incredibly seriously. So that's 38 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 2: just becoming even more important and something we talk to 39 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 2: regulators about on a daily basis. I do think what 40 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 2: we touched on in our last discussion around the ETFs 41 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 2: that has bought at least one of the tokens or 42 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 2: digital assets right into the mainstream. But once you have 43 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 2: that in your portfolio, then you want to kind of 44 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 2: delve deeper into this asset class. And I think that's 45 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 2: what we're seeing a little bit of a move around 46 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 2: in terms of the different demographics and age breakdowns that 47 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 2: are interested in crypto. Yep, surely it's the digital natives 48 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 2: who are younger, but we have seen pretty serious increases 49 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 2: in terms of boomers and millennials are right up there 50 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 2: with gen Z. That boomer audience is being driven by 51 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 2: the gen cs and the millennials. But you know, once 52 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,959 Speaker 2: they've done that big placement, which is probably a hold 53 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 2: with an ETF in a couple of stocks, much like 54 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 2: gold or any other divers for classic diversification panel I have, 55 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 2: we then get kind of quite interesting inquiries from these users, 56 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,079 Speaker 2: and so you know that learning journey is just beginning 57 00:02:58,120 --> 00:02:59,519 Speaker 2: for you know, the bulk of the market. 58 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: Okay, there's plenty to unpack in that answer, I want 59 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: to come to who's investing in them? But just before 60 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: we do that, so security is a big issue, a 61 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: big impediment to people and if they're confident about who 62 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: they're investing in, then they're more likely to invest. What 63 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: are the other hurdles that people have got to overcome 64 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: just before we get to who it is that's actually 65 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: doing it. 66 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, so with that security and reputation, you know, that's 67 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 2: clearly first cab off the rank, and so I think 68 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 2: we kind of tick that box for a number of people. 69 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 2: The next decision is, you know, how do you want 70 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 2: to trade actively? Do you want to delve into a 71 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 2: portfolio of tokens or assets? And then you know, even 72 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 2: going on that journey itself is a very active kind 73 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 2: of trading journey. And so I think that's when, you know, 74 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: a whole lot of the educational information kesin in terms 75 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 2: of learn and earn campaigns, and we hear repeatedly from 76 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 2: people and in a lot of this research as well, 77 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 2: that educational aspect is kind of learn earning by doing. 78 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 2: I think these younger generations, as you've seen, even with 79 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 2: the ETF journey, you know, people spent a vast amount 80 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 2: of effort looking into which ETF they're going to use, 81 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 2: which provider. It's not only about cost. You know, clearly 82 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 2: cost is part of that, but from when we started 83 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 2: the ETF journey when there were a handful to now 84 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: literally hundreds and then domestic Australian ETFs. You know, this 85 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 2: initially started as a kind of American phenomena. We see 86 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,559 Speaker 2: that kind of expansion of that journey, and I remember 87 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 2: even myself as a as a younger guy earning a 88 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 2: little bit of money, having a bit of spare cash around. 89 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 2: You know, I made some errors on my own ETF 90 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 2: journeys in terms of where they were domiciled and what 91 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 2: I should and shouldn't have been doing. So I think 92 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 2: we're at the same state and that early part of 93 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 2: the journey. In terms of Bitcoin, eth Solana, Polygon, et cetera. 94 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 1: Those one that you just mentioned there, and particularly bitcoin, 95 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: they are the largest and most popular. Is it fair 96 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: to say with that some security as well? 97 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly. I mean, look the household names and the 98 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 2: investment management industry and wealth managers and you know, even 99 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 2: the superfund in Australia or other future fund has an 100 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 2: allocation for this asset class. So I don't think that's 101 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 2: going away. And there's broad concern about the legitimacy of 102 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 2: that asset class in terms of liquidity and the future 103 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 2: of it. Ethereum has a very different utility play. And 104 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 2: I was at a hakathon a couple of weeks ago 105 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 2: in Sydney. You know, hundreds of highly educated, far more 106 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 2: intelligent individuals than myself from all the top computer science 107 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 2: schools and engineering departments and people flying in from all 108 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 2: over the world to be involved in what was called 109 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 2: in a global Ethereum event. And so during that time, 110 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 2: I think it's just an important thing that people on 111 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 2: the street probably don't appreciate. There's a number of projects 112 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 2: going on in terms of how can you use ethereum 113 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 2: as a utility across all sorts of areas intellectual property art, 114 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 2: digital and physical art, different payment rails and payment uses, remittances, 115 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 2: how to speed up payments, and broader kind of financial systems, 116 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 2: and a lot of things around gaming. You remember, the 117 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 2: gaming space in terms of the computer gaming space and 118 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 2: the fortnights of the world, et cetera. Is bigger than 119 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 2: all other digital media and television combined. So these are 120 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 2: kind of the applications that the blockchain are having an 121 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 2: effect on, and they're being driven by this next younger generation, 122 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 2: and so that's really the ethereum space. And then there 123 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 2: are a number and number of projects and tokens that 124 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 2: interlay with ethereum. So I think that's the next big 125 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 2: space people are learning about. And I was personally reassured 126 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 2: to see a number of people my age at this event. 127 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 2: Some of them are veteran hackers, other of them are 128 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 2: veteran investors, and a lot of family offices, and I 129 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 2: would say some of the smarter money in Australia looking 130 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 2: at this as well. So that is really much like 131 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 2: the kind of VC world learn by doing, Yeah, and 132 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 2: I think we've kind of democratized that in many ways 133 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 2: with blockchain and being able to learn and earn on 134 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 2: these platforms. 135 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: Stay with me, John, we'll be back in a minute. 136 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: I'm speaking to John A. Lachlan, Managing director APAK at Coinbase. Okay, 137 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: so let's move to who are investing and you're sort 138 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: of alluding to it there you talked about baby boomers 139 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: potentially following millennials into this market. I'm just interested in 140 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: kind of delving into that a little bit more. I 141 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: presume baby booms a lot of them will be retiring 142 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: and have money to invest as well. I suppose I'm 143 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: trying to get proportions about who's putting money into this area. 144 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: Is it still mostly a millennials world or a younger 145 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: world or not? 146 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, not necessarily, Sean. So let's just dig into 147 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 2: some of these stats from the report itself. You know, 148 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,239 Speaker 2: we're assuming that twenty seven percent or I have record 149 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 2: of the population and have owned crypt on the last 150 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 2: twelve months, and so therefore, you know, off the back 151 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 2: of the crypto winter and some people maybe being not 152 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 2: active in the market, we can assume that numbers north 153 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 2: of that for total ownership. So that number in terms 154 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 2: of last twelve months activity is five point six million Aussies. 155 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 2: The breakdown and familiarity within those groups of the age 156 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 2: breakdown is gen Z sixty percent, you know, familiar in 157 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 2: high awareness, and that really is you know, these these 158 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 2: digital natives. Right after that and just slightly more healthily 159 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 2: millennials and millennials make me feel young with fifty seven 160 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 2: percent familiarity, and then boomers at thirty nine percent. That 161 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 2: may sound like quite a kind of gap from fifty 162 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 2: seven and sixty percent to thirty nine, but this cohort, 163 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 2: as we mentioned on our last podcurse their allocation in 164 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 2: terms of let's say an RPU or the amount of 165 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 2: money they're allocating to their portfolio is usually you know, 166 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 2: five to ten times what those youngs is are putting 167 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 2: into the allocation. And we're all very aware of the 168 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 2: wealth transformation and the huge shift going on in Australia 169 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 2: as the demographic ages and cases out of property and 170 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 2: an incredible period of economic growth and prosperity. But they 171 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 2: have an outweighted effect just due to the shehaer amount 172 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 2: of capital there putting into play, even if that's a 173 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 2: fifty basis point or one percent allocation, which is still 174 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 2: a classic conservative portfolio diversification play. That's not going backwards. 175 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: And I just want to quickly because we're running out 176 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: of time. But regulation, the report talks about regulation and 177 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: the need for regulatory oversight and regulatory certainty. It is 178 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: very difficult though for regulators to keep up in a sense. 179 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 2: Look, I think we've seen this with other regimes and 180 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 2: we're in a transition period. We know that ASAK are 181 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 2: going to be an incoming regulator. It's quite certain that 182 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 2: this will fall under an AFSL regime and we just 183 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 2: have to be careful in the interim about is the 184 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 2: regulator really pushing cases you know, for the sake of 185 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 2: pushing cases and testing the law and will that retard 186 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 2: or slow down or govern really important innovation and activity 187 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 2: in the technology space in Australia because we have a 188 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 2: lot of leading companies in this space and there have 189 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 2: been some pretty tricky and pretty curly cases around this 190 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 2: and so while the law is not perfect, the existing 191 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 2: securities regulation has very firm meaning. So the sooner we 192 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 2: can get to draft from legislation and it's maybe as 193 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 2: soon as late November December this year, which we're all 194 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 2: hopeful for given some announcements in canber in recent days 195 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 2: and weeks, the better and that will provide that guidance 196 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 2: to people. But look, Australians, particularly younger Australians, do not 197 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 2: have confidence in the oligopoly and the historical banking systems. 198 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 2: The costs involved are the concentration of power and that's 199 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 2: very about coinbases mission overall for financial freedom and something 200 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 2: we're excited to be part of and a lot of 201 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 2: humility being in the Australian market that is really advancing quickly. 202 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: Fantastic, John, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 203 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 2: Thanks Sean. 204 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,839 Speaker 1: That's John I. Laughlin Managing Director Apak at Coinbase. This 205 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. Remember this is 206 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,839 Speaker 1: general information only and you should always seek professional advice 207 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,839 Speaker 1: before making investment decisions. Join us every morning for the 208 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: full episode of Fear and Greed Daily business years for 209 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: people who make their own decisions. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy 210 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: your day.