1
00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:13,200
Speaker 1: Everyone, It's Caurly Taylor here on the Poul Taylor Podcast.

2
00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:16,200
Speaker 1: Surprise surprise. So we're gonna it's a bit different today

3
00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:20,440
Speaker 1: because obviously normally you hear Paul's dulcet point.

4
00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,639
Speaker 2: Sorry, keep going, because I'm not starting it again. I

5
00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:28,040
Speaker 2: did the attitude you are.

6
00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:33,599
Speaker 3: So starting this again Paul's dulcet tones.

7
00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:36,720
Speaker 1: But today it's going to be a little bit different

8
00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:41,280
Speaker 1: because I'm actually going to be interviewing Paul on the podcast.

9
00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,960
Speaker 1: So Paul, doctor Paul Taylor, Welcome to the Poul Taylor Podcast.

10
00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:47,080
Speaker 4: Thank you, nice to be here.

11
00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:53,880
Speaker 1: So twenty twenty five was quite a big year for you,

12
00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,360
Speaker 1: and it's going to be relevant to what we're talking

13
00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:57,080
Speaker 1: about today.

14
00:00:58,520 --> 00:00:59,800
Speaker 3: You ticked off.

15
00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:03,200
Speaker 1: A lot of boxes. So it started off last January.

16
00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,679
Speaker 1: In fact, a year ago you had open heart surgery,

17
00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:12,200
Speaker 1: and you also published your second book, The Hardiness Effect,

18
00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:17,200
Speaker 1: and just oh and after that you got your PhD.

19
00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:19,559
Speaker 1: And you graduated, and you went and bore the funny

20
00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,040
Speaker 1: hat and actually got the bit of papers. So that's

21
00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:26,360
Speaker 1: why you are now, doctor Paul Taylor. So I wanted

22
00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:32,640
Speaker 1: to first ask you about your open heart surgery. I

23
00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:36,000
Speaker 1: know in the lead up to that it was quite

24
00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,399
Speaker 1: a process. And I kind of watched you through that process,

25
00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:44,800
Speaker 1: and you had written in whiteboard marker on the bathroom mirror,

26
00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,040
Speaker 1: my worthy opponent, so kind of tell us a bit

27
00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:48,720
Speaker 1: more about that.

28
00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, so that that comes from the stoic philosophers.

29
00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:57,120
Speaker 2: And I remember actually when I got the diagnosis. So

30
00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,680
Speaker 2: I walked in a little bit of backs. Lots of

31
00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,040
Speaker 2: people I've heard this, so make it quick. I played

32
00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,840
Speaker 2: soccer with a cardiologist and I said to him, hey, Ross,

33
00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:06,360
Speaker 2: and now in my fifties, I want to get a

34
00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:08,760
Speaker 2: full of check up. So he brought me in, did

35
00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,000
Speaker 2: a whole heap of tests, and then I walked in

36
00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,280
Speaker 2: that day to get the debrief, expecting clean bit of

37
00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:16,240
Speaker 2: healthier fittshed a fiddle because they know it's pretty fit.

38
00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:18,760
Speaker 2: And he said, good news is your fittis the fiddle.

39
00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,200
Speaker 2: Bad news is you were born with a heart defect.

40
00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:26,160
Speaker 2: You have a bicuspard aortic valve rather than try cuspid.

41
00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,000
Speaker 4: And we went through it, and basically the upshot was.

42
00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:31,600
Speaker 2: You need to have open heart surgery at some stage

43
00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:33,440
Speaker 2: in the next few years or this shit's going to

44
00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:37,760
Speaker 2: kill you. So I remember walking out of there and

45
00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,200
Speaker 2: the words of Seneca hit me like a brick. I

46
00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,640
Speaker 2: pity the man who's not faced adversity, because he is

47
00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,320
Speaker 2: not faced an opponent, and nobody, not even him, knows

48
00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,360
Speaker 2: that what he is capable of. And then I remember

49
00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:56,440
Speaker 2: that epictetious talking about worthy opponents and the Olympic Games

50
00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,320
Speaker 2: of life. So as I was driving home, I thought, well,

51
00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,960
Speaker 2: this is my worthy opponent. And I remembered in a

52
00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,639
Speaker 2: conversation i'd had with the main of my rage, who

53
00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,400
Speaker 2: had been the commanding officer of the Australian Special Forces

54
00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,880
Speaker 2: at the time of the First Golf War.

55
00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:14,239
Speaker 4: And I remember having coffee with him.

56
00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:18,360
Speaker 2: One day and asking him how it felt going to war,

57
00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,200
Speaker 2: because I obviously spent years in the British military but

58
00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,360
Speaker 2: never went to war, and Red said something interesting. He said,

59
00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:28,080
Speaker 2: he said, it was really interesting. He said there was

60
00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:28,760
Speaker 2: obviously a bit of.

61
00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,280
Speaker 4: Anxiety because we were going to war, but.

62
00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:35,400
Speaker 2: He said the overwhelming feeling was a perverse sense of

63
00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:40,120
Speaker 2: excitement because this is what we had trained for and

64
00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,760
Speaker 2: we're beginning to test ourselves. And as I was driving

65
00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,280
Speaker 2: home and I thought it, I thought, well, I actually

66
00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:49,160
Speaker 2: this aligns beautifully with the Stoics, And I know that

67
00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,160
Speaker 2: you know, you don't get to choose your circumstances, but

68
00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,000
Speaker 2: you get to choose how you respond from reading all

69
00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,520
Speaker 2: the hardiness stuff, all the Victor Frankel stuff, all the

70
00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:01,200
Speaker 2: stoic stuff. So I actually thought to myself, you know,

71
00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,920
Speaker 2: this is my worthy opponent. And I actually thought, well,

72
00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,280
Speaker 2: this is what I've trained for. This is what has

73
00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,960
Speaker 2: been all about. My military training for the CrossFit, the

74
00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,920
Speaker 2: ice baths has all been to prepare me for my

75
00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,960
Speaker 2: worthy opponent. So I just framed it as that. And

76
00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,080
Speaker 2: as you know, xboxer did some karate, and I thought,

77
00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,640
Speaker 2: this is a worthy opponent, And what are you going

78
00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,480
Speaker 2: to do if you're if you're in a contest, you're

79
00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,640
Speaker 2: going to fight somebody that's awesome. You need to get

80
00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,480
Speaker 2: your ship sorted. You need to have one hundred percent

81
00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,200
Speaker 2: focus on it. So I think from from that moment

82
00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:40,400
Speaker 2: on the way home, I chose to embrace it as

83
00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:45,120
Speaker 2: a challenge and chose to kind of get excited about it.

84
00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:48,159
Speaker 3: And what did you do.

85
00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:52,239
Speaker 1: To like you were if you chose to be excited

86
00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,800
Speaker 1: about open heart surgery, which is probably going to be

87
00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:59,320
Speaker 1: a very foreign concept for most people. But with that,

88
00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,080
Speaker 1: what what was kind of your plan in the lead

89
00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,080
Speaker 1: up to the open heart surgery. So how were you

90
00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,480
Speaker 1: going to kind of so called go into battle with

91
00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:10,520
Speaker 1: your worthy opponent.

92
00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, well so this is all about preparing, right, And

93
00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,680
Speaker 2: just like I thought, well you're preparing for a fight,

94
00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,800
Speaker 2: what are you going to do. You're going to cut

95
00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,680
Speaker 2: the alcohol out, You're going to train your ass off,

96
00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,240
Speaker 2: but you're going to get very scientific about the training program, right,

97
00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,479
Speaker 2: So I dug into the research, you know, looking at

98
00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,280
Speaker 2: what gives me the best chance. You know, what are

99
00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,400
Speaker 2: the chances of something going wrong? You know, you need

100
00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,520
Speaker 2: to understand the risks about it and then hardly optimize

101
00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,960
Speaker 2: yourself for recovery. And I knew that being physically as

102
00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,680
Speaker 2: strong as I could and as fit as I could

103
00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,039
Speaker 2: within the constraints was something that I needed to do

104
00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,280
Speaker 2: because I know that that enhances recovery.

105
00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,200
Speaker 4: So you know, I went in there in the.

106
00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,200
Speaker 2: Best possible ship and it was a bit of a

107
00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,320
Speaker 2: I had to be careful because obviously with.

108
00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,640
Speaker 4: The valve, the by cuspit valve, it starts to leak.

109
00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,240
Speaker 2: So the more I was going to be doing high

110
00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,880
Speaker 2: intensity stuff, the more I was going to be exacerbating

111
00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,000
Speaker 2: that leak. But I thought, that's a reasonable trade off

112
00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,320
Speaker 2: for me getting in the best shape that I possibly

113
00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:27,160
Speaker 2: can so and a silver lining of that was I

114
00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,480
Speaker 2: eventually ticked off.

115
00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:30,520
Speaker 4: The fifty to fifty to fifty.

116
00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,480
Speaker 2: So there's this challenge that I'd had a couple of

117
00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:35,920
Speaker 2: attempts up before but never quite.

118
00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:37,560
Speaker 4: Made it, and I made it a month before open

119
00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:38,159
Speaker 4: heart surgery.

120
00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,479
Speaker 2: So that's be in your fifties, have your heart rate

121
00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:45,480
Speaker 2: variability above fifty, your VEO two max above fifty, and

122
00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,880
Speaker 2: you're resting heart rate below fifty. And quite a few

123
00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,400
Speaker 2: times I had two out of three, but not all,

124
00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,719
Speaker 2: and I managed to get all of them. So I

125
00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,800
Speaker 2: knew going in that I was in really really good

126
00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:02,440
Speaker 2: shape physically. Mentally I was in good shape as well.

127
00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,120
Speaker 2: I think the other thing that I did, and you'll

128
00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:12,240
Speaker 2: remember this, is I started seriously contemplating my death and

129
00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:14,240
Speaker 2: I forced myself to do it, even though I knew

130
00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:16,280
Speaker 2: the risks of me dying on the operating table were

131
00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:20,560
Speaker 2: less than one percent, but I forced myself to do it.

132
00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,400
Speaker 4: And actually, one thing that you said, you.

133
00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,080
Speaker 2: Know, I always take the dogs out for the morning,

134
00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:26,680
Speaker 2: and I used to listen to podcasts, and you said, well,

135
00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,200
Speaker 2: why don't you just be present. And I actually used

136
00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:36,200
Speaker 2: that morning walk to contemplate my own mortality, and I

137
00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,920
Speaker 2: actually went in that with a bit of an acceptance

138
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,840
Speaker 2: that if it all goes to shit, I've.

139
00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,680
Speaker 4: Had a fucking awesome life. I've had a really good

140
00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:46,640
Speaker 4: life and not many regrets.

141
00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,040
Speaker 2: And if I do get through it, what am I

142
00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:51,480
Speaker 2: going to tweak going on?

143
00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:52,600
Speaker 3: Yeah?

144
00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:54,920
Speaker 1: Because it really as you were talking about that, there

145
00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:56,800
Speaker 1: were a few things that were coming to mind. One

146
00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:01,560
Speaker 1: is the acceptance part, is a staunch excit of your reality.

147
00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:07,440
Speaker 1: But taking action with that, it's like, okay, it's that Aragamama,

148
00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,000
Speaker 1: that Japanese, beautiful Japanese concept of with things as they are,

149
00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:13,200
Speaker 1: what needs to be done.

150
00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,320
Speaker 3: And part of that is that.

151
00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:20,360
Speaker 1: Stoic of the stoic way of focusing on what you

152
00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,960
Speaker 1: can control and not putting all your focus on the

153
00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:26,640
Speaker 1: things that you can't control.

154
00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,680
Speaker 3: And it's all done with a very strong sense of purpose.

155
00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:33,760
Speaker 3: So what did you do? And I don't think I've

156
00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:34,480
Speaker 3: ever asked you this?

157
00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:40,520
Speaker 1: How did you manage when those fear thoughts came up?

158
00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,680
Speaker 1: Because it's like, you're not superhuman here. It's like a

159
00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:46,959
Speaker 1: huge thing going in for any surgery, let alone open

160
00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,880
Speaker 1: heart surgery. So when the fear did come up, when

161
00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,080
Speaker 1: you were thinking kind of worst case scenario, what did

162
00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,160
Speaker 1: you do to kind of manage those thoughts and that

163
00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:56,319
Speaker 1: those emotions.

164
00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:01,400
Speaker 2: Well, I just looked at it from my perspective of

165
00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,480
Speaker 2: what are the chances. So the chances are way less

166
00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:09,199
Speaker 2: than one percent, but it's it's still there. So but

167
00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,280
Speaker 2: but really for me, it was it was about just

168
00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,720
Speaker 2: getting to a point of accepting that if this is it,

169
00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,679
Speaker 2: then this is it. If my numbers up, my numbers up,

170
00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:21,640
Speaker 2: and I've had a freaking good life.

171
00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:22,560
Speaker 4: You know.

172
00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:27,880
Speaker 2: The one major regret that I would have had well too,

173
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,319
Speaker 2: actually would be one seeing our kids grow up, and

174
00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:37,200
Speaker 2: two really enjoying retirement, you know, and and and you know,

175
00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:38,960
Speaker 2: just just.

176
00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:40,160
Speaker 4: Enjoying the fruits of your labor.

177
00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,800
Speaker 2: But I actually I had that accept and and to

178
00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,440
Speaker 2: be honest, you know, once I had analyzed all of

179
00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,640
Speaker 2: the risks and I knew it was less one percent

180
00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:54,360
Speaker 2: and die on the operating table, and that that actually,

181
00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:56,960
Speaker 2: you know, I was in really good ship, so my

182
00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,600
Speaker 2: chances would be way less than one percent. So I

183
00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:05,000
Speaker 2: was was just quite thought are cognitive around it. You know,

184
00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:09,199
Speaker 2: I didn't bring much emotion into it and went, yeah, yeah,

185
00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:10,200
Speaker 2: and if if.

186
00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:11,200
Speaker 4: It's to be, then it's to be.

187
00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:14,880
Speaker 2: And then it was the old I think I really

188
00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:17,480
Speaker 2: hung on to Epictetis's play your given roles.

189
00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,400
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, you know that.

190
00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,120
Speaker 2: He said that we're all actors in the play and

191
00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:23,640
Speaker 2: sometimes we get a part of this and a lot

192
00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:25,640
Speaker 2: of our choosing, and that was certainly the case. And

193
00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,640
Speaker 2: he said your your purpose then is to play your

194
00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,719
Speaker 2: given role. Well, so that was for me was how

195
00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:34,280
Speaker 2: do I play that well for myself?

196
00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:36,199
Speaker 4: But how do I play that well for my kids?

197
00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:38,880
Speaker 2: Because I was very aware that my kids were watching me,

198
00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,600
Speaker 2: and they don't so much do what you say, they

199
00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,760
Speaker 2: do what you do. So I was pretty cognizant of that.

200
00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,720
Speaker 2: And and then I was just completely focused on on recovery.

201
00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,560
Speaker 2: So as you as you know, I was so focused

202
00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,880
Speaker 2: on recovery even before the operation. Yeah, so that's just

203
00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:03,600
Speaker 2: I just channeled all of my energy into preparing the

204
00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,000
Speaker 2: best that I could for my worthy opponent and prepping

205
00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:11,080
Speaker 2: for my recovery because I wanted to recover a shit

206
00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:11,760
Speaker 2: little quicker.

207
00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:12,840
Speaker 4: Yeah.

208
00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,080
Speaker 1: I mean, you were incredibly proactive, and I think in

209
00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,600
Speaker 1: a case like this with surgery, do you put so

210
00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:23,120
Speaker 1: much trust in the surgeon, you put so much trust.

211
00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:23,040
Speaker 3: In the.

212
00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,800
Speaker 1: Medical team around you. But with that you also were

213
00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,440
Speaker 1: incredibly proactive in what else can I do? And I

214
00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:37,560
Speaker 1: think that's you know, what I was observing from you,

215
00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:44,920
Speaker 1: was this this real sense of purpose of what can

216
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:49,680
Speaker 1: I do with all my might to make this to

217
00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:55,400
Speaker 1: make my recovery as smooth as possible? And it, yeah,

218
00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:56,520
Speaker 1: I mean it paid off.

219
00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, And look, I knew the thing that I couldn't

220
00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:03,040
Speaker 2: control was the skill of the surgeon. And you know,

221
00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,560
Speaker 2: I went and met the surgeon. I asked him, how

222
00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,800
Speaker 2: many of these have you done? How many have you

223
00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,719
Speaker 2: had to revisit? How many have died on it? And

224
00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:15,200
Speaker 2: you know, he gave me all the answers, and I said, well,

225
00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,400
Speaker 2: I mean, good hands here, and said to him, just

226
00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:19,720
Speaker 2: just make sure you have a good night sleep.

227
00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,920
Speaker 1: And also, I think when you actually we went into surgery,

228
00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,160
Speaker 1: it's like going back to another storic idea of the

229
00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,960
Speaker 1: art of acquiescence, which is surrendered to that which is control.

230
00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,000
Speaker 3: And that is a pure surrender.

231
00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,960
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean giving up or you know, throwing your

232
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:41,600
Speaker 1: hands at me and going this is it.

233
00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,560
Speaker 3: It's just like it's just a pure surrender. It's now

234
00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:45,800
Speaker 3: over to the surgeon.

235
00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:47,160
Speaker 4: That was exactly it.

236
00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:51,959
Speaker 2: I went into that theater knowing that I had left

237
00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:56,480
Speaker 2: no stone turned, and I actually, as I was going under,

238
00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:58,560
Speaker 2: I said to the surgeon, right, I've done my bit.

239
00:12:58,720 --> 00:12:59,400
Speaker 4: You do your bit?

240
00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,800
Speaker 3: Nwe yeah, yeah, you just take your handing the button.

241
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,960
Speaker 4: Either, yeah. And then and then I thought, when I

242
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:07,160
Speaker 4: wake up, I'll get it back.

243
00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:09,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, yep, and you did.

244
00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:09,880
Speaker 4: I did.

245
00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,920
Speaker 3: We won't going to that one though, Well.

246
00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:16,200
Speaker 4: I think that's important.

247
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:21,440
Speaker 2: Actually we cut just in terms of what well in

248
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,280
Speaker 2: ice you when I first woke up, yeah, you know,

249
00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,320
Speaker 2: and you thought I was completely bonkers, but I had

250
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,720
Speaker 2: wires hanging out of me and I wanted to get

251
00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:33,600
Speaker 2: out of bed and you were like, what are you doing?

252
00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:35,360
Speaker 2: You don't you can't get out of bed, and I'm like,

253
00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:36,360
Speaker 2: I need to get out of bed.

254
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:36,880
Speaker 4: And I did.

255
00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,480
Speaker 2: I think you remember I did ten squats. They were

256
00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:43,319
Speaker 2: pretty shitty squats, but and it's not recommended that you

257
00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:48,200
Speaker 2: do this in ic stupid really I probably was, but

258
00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,880
Speaker 2: but you know, I was still off my face of morphine,

259
00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:53,880
Speaker 2: but it was just in my head.

260
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,079
Speaker 4: My recovery starts as soon as I wake up. Yeah, yeah,

261
00:13:58,120 --> 00:13:59,440
Speaker 4: and I think it.

262
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,840
Speaker 2: I don't even remember that, no, no, but it was

263
00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,640
Speaker 2: I know that it was just it was in my

264
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,760
Speaker 2: head that I have to start my recovery right now.

265
00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:10,600
Speaker 4: Yeah.

266
00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we won't mention all the Monty Python quotes.

267
00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,160
Speaker 1: As soon as you came out of it, you're quoting

268
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,160
Speaker 1: Monty Pipe, which was very amusing for me and Oscar.

269
00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:28,800
Speaker 1: So I want to move on to your second book,

270
00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:34,280
Speaker 1: which is the Hardiness Effect. So the heartiness is there's

271
00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,240
Speaker 1: a difference between hardiness and resilience. And we all know

272
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,400
Speaker 1: the word resilience, and I think it's been it's been overused.

273
00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:45,000
Speaker 1: I think people are confused now of what does resilience

274
00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:49,200
Speaker 1: mean and how do I become resilient? And but you

275
00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:54,120
Speaker 1: have actually shifted your focus on to heartiness. So what

276
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,960
Speaker 1: is the difference between hardiness and resilience.

277
00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:03,080
Speaker 2: So resilience is about boncing back from adversity. Hardiness has

278
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,320
Speaker 2: been called the courage to grow from stress. Right, So

279
00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,240
Speaker 2: resilience is post event, but hardiness is actually a set

280
00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:16,200
Speaker 2: of psychological or cognitive orientations that actually.

281
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,560
Speaker 4: Prepare you in advance. And that's the key thing, and

282
00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,960
Speaker 4: the research is that it does help people to grow

283
00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:24,120
Speaker 4: from stress.

284
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:31,080
Speaker 2: And you'll know, for years, I've been talking about beyond resilience.

285
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,840
Speaker 2: You know, I've run workshops around beyond resilience, and I've

286
00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:40,720
Speaker 2: always talked about being stress adapted, which is better than

287
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:41,560
Speaker 2: bouncing back.

288
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,120
Speaker 4: It's how do you grow from stress?

289
00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:47,640
Speaker 2: And then I uncovered hardiness and then forgot that I'd

290
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:52,960
Speaker 2: read about it Jesus maybe fifteen years ago in a

291
00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,400
Speaker 2: brilliant book called bio Behavioral Resilience to Stress, which was

292
00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:58,560
Speaker 2: all about.

293
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,920
Speaker 4: The forces really prepare for stuff, and I'd forgot about it.

294
00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:08,200
Speaker 2: And I rediscovered it when I was doing my literature

295
00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,760
Speaker 2: review for my pH d. And it was one of

296
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,320
Speaker 2: those ones where you go, oh.

297
00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,760
Speaker 4: Shit, why have I forgotten about this?

298
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,320
Speaker 2: Because as I started diving into it, I started to

299
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,720
Speaker 2: become more and more excited about it, and I'm like,

300
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,680
Speaker 2: this is the thing that I've been looking for that

301
00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:31,280
Speaker 2: is beyond resilience, and actually there's thirty years of research

302
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:32,800
Speaker 2: around it, right that.

303
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,600
Speaker 4: Is just really compelling.

304
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,960
Speaker 2: And that's why I switched my focus from resilience to

305
00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:49,880
Speaker 2: heartiness because there's so many more real world benefits and

306
00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,480
Speaker 2: it's very clear what it is like if you.

307
00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:54,880
Speaker 4: When I did my Literature Review.

308
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,720
Speaker 2: There's so many different definitions of resilience, Like there's not

309
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,800
Speaker 2: one agreed definition of resilience out there, and so that

310
00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,040
Speaker 2: makes it difficult. And then when you look at training

311
00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:13,240
Speaker 2: program interventions and they are for resilience, like programs to

312
00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:18,280
Speaker 2: help people with resilience, they're actually pretty underwhelming. And especially

313
00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:22,680
Speaker 2: I looked into military stuff, and lots of resilience training

314
00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:29,760
Speaker 2: programs have been implemented that had no real good scientific

315
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:35,520
Speaker 2: basis for it and actually really quite ineffective. The US

316
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:40,440
Speaker 2: military rolled out the Comprehensive Soldier Fitness Program, and this

317
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,800
Speaker 2: was all based on resilience stuff that was proven in

318
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,879
Speaker 2: school kids but had never been tested in military personnel.

319
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,879
Speaker 2: And because some general liked it and and got completely

320
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:56,160
Speaker 2: enamored with.

321
00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,000
Speaker 4: What do you call it? Who's the name of the guy?

322
00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:04,919
Speaker 2: I've just had a brilliant art the father of positive psychology.

323
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,480
Speaker 4: Seligment, Martin Seligment. So he had done this massive thing

324
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:11,440
Speaker 4: on school kids and.

325
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,080
Speaker 2: Showing that you could improve their resilience, and then they

326
00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,520
Speaker 2: rolled it right across the US military.

327
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,040
Speaker 4: And I had bugger all impact.

328
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,600
Speaker 2: Wow. And then but you see that hardiness in the

329
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:27,080
Speaker 2: military predicts who passes and who feels basic military training.

330
00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:31,640
Speaker 2: It predicts who passes Special Forces selection training, the toughest

331
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,960
Speaker 2: physical and mental course you could possibly imagine. Hardiness predicts

332
00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:40,440
Speaker 2: who passes police special operations. It also predicts career longevity

333
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,080
Speaker 2: in high pressure environments such as the military, police and

334
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:48,680
Speaker 2: first responders, and even school kids who are hair and hardings,

335
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,600
Speaker 2: which I'm sure we'll talk about. They're much more likely

336
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,640
Speaker 2: to go to university than people who are not so

337
00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,840
Speaker 2: so for me, they it was pretty clear when I

338
00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,080
Speaker 2: dug into the race arch that this is the way forward.

339
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that that saying, and I hope I

340
00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:06,840
Speaker 1: get this right.

341
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:08,360
Speaker 3: Is resilience is the outcome.

342
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:13,280
Speaker 1: Hardiness is how you get there, because hardiness is a process.

343
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,639
Speaker 1: It's it's very action orientated. You know, there's and we

344
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,680
Speaker 1: can dive into what hardiness is and how you can

345
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,080
Speaker 1: apply it to your own life. But yeah, resilience just

346
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:28,000
Speaker 1: doesn't like what do I do to be resilience? Hardiness

347
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,760
Speaker 1: is the answer to that. That's really simplifying it. So

348
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,760
Speaker 1: you talk about the four seeds of psychological hardiness, So

349
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:39,119
Speaker 1: what are the four seeds?

350
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, so look, there's three seeds in the literature.

351
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,639
Speaker 2: I've actually added a fourth one, and I had a

352
00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,440
Speaker 2: good chart with Paul Barton, who's probably the most prolific

353
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,480
Speaker 2: hardiness researcher. He's a US military psychologist. I've had a

354
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,840
Speaker 2: couple of charts with him. He's been great, and he

355
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,400
Speaker 2: actually agreed that the fourth one. He says it's kind

356
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,200
Speaker 2: of buried a little bit in the three, but he

357
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,640
Speaker 2: agreed that it should be sort of standalone. So it's

358
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,360
Speaker 2: control challenge, commitment, and the one I've added this connection.

359
00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,280
Speaker 4: Right, so control orientation.

360
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:17,119
Speaker 2: People high in heartiness have this deep belief that they

361
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:21,800
Speaker 2: ultimately control or heavily influence their environment and their destiny.

362
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,119
Speaker 2: And they understand that shit will happen, they'll get shits

363
00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,000
Speaker 2: and which is from the universe, but ultimately they're determined

364
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,440
Speaker 2: to control it. And they also focus on what they

365
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:37,880
Speaker 2: can control. And low hearty people have what's called an

366
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,600
Speaker 2: external lookers of control. So high hearty people have this

367
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,640
Speaker 2: internal lookers of control. I control my destiny. Are low

368
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,879
Speaker 2: hearty people have an external lookers of control? You know,

369
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:52,040
Speaker 2: they they ultimately believe deep down that their destiny is

370
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 2: heavily influenced by other people, by outside events. Right. You'll

371
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 2: hear them say this shit always happens to me. I'm

372
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:03,040
Speaker 2: an unlucky person. My life was sorted and COVID ruined it.

373
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:08,639
Speaker 2: This person ruined my life. Right, that's externalizing their destiny

374
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 2: to others. Whereas high hearty people go, yeah, Jesus, that

375
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:16,000
Speaker 2: was hard, but ultimately I got through it. So that's

376
00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:22,120
Speaker 2: control orientation in a nutshell. Challenge orientation is two components

377
00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,760
Speaker 2: of this, how you react to change and how you

378
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 2: react to adversity. So high hearted people look at change

379
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,640
Speaker 2: as an opportunity to learn, grow and develop, whereas low

380
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,640
Speaker 2: hardy people look at changes threatening and it's a bad

381
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,760
Speaker 2: thing and they resist change, right, And lots of people

382
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,520
Speaker 2: who've been in the workplace, you know they'll have seen

383
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,359
Speaker 2: this over and over again. But then when it comes

384
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 2: to adversity, low hardy people viewed as a threat and

385
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 2: they tend to avoid, procrastinate, run away, whereas high hearty

386
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 2: people look at it as a challenge.

387
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 4: Right, And so you know that was the.

388
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 2: First thing I did with my open heart, hurt worthy

389
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 2: opponent is to challenge and then commitment.

390
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 4: So there a couple of elements to commitment.

391
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,640
Speaker 2: High hearty people are they're just committed to life it's

392
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:15,120
Speaker 2: about being fully engaged in life's activities, right.

393
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,280
Speaker 4: Being engaged at work, being engaged in your.

394
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,680
Speaker 2: Social life and your home life, and what that means

395
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 2: about being engaged.

396
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:24,880
Speaker 4: And this is my take on it.

397
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,439
Speaker 2: Like like you will know people who are high hardy

398
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 2: from a commitment perspective because they just bring energy. They're

399
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 2: you know, they're just they're interested, they're curious that they

400
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 2: just and then low hardy people are fucking energy vampires, right,

401
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,879
Speaker 2: But I think this goes into personal life and and

402
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 2: this is again this is just my thinking, but my

403
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,440
Speaker 2: concern is that there are more and more people who

404
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 2: are spending increasing amounts of their spur time within the

405
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 2: confines of four walls, with their heads buried in a

406
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 2: goddamn screen, and they are looking to be entertained.

407
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 4: Right. I call them passive consumers of life. And I'm not.

408
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 2: Saying there's no role for being entertained, but that shouldn't

409
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 2: be where you spend most of your time. And there's

410
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 2: a lot of people that spend so much of their

411
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 2: spare time on a goddamn screen.

412
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,880
Speaker 3: I am not every time there's a space of time.

413
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 1: If you start to know, I mean I often do

414
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 1: this as well, if I've got like a little block,

415
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 1: even if it's five minutes, there's just such a temptation

416
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 1: to reach for the phone.

417
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 3: It's like an automatic thing.

418
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 2: Look, and I think the best thing that we ever

419
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 2: did was we took the.

420
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 4: TV out of the living room. Yeah.

421
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was just a game changer for us, because

422
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 2: you know, it was only after it that we noticed that,

423
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 2: you know, it would be on in the background and

424
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 2: then you'd sit down and watch stuff that was just

425
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 2: really not that interested in.

426
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 4: I mean, now, as you know, the only.

427
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 2: Time I watch TV is something that I'm super super

428
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 2: interested in.

429
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I.

430
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 3: Think that's part of the control, isn't it is.

431
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 1: The other thing that we do is we never have

432
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: our phones in the room at night, and the kids

433
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 1: don't where you don't. They're always on charge in the kitchen,

434
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 1: So there's not that temptation when you wake up in

435
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 1: the morning just to reach for your phone and then

436
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 1: all of a sudden you've got inputs.

437
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 4: This is what I say to people.

438
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 2: You know, I'm quite direct when I present, and I

439
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 2: say to people, if your eyes look at your phone

440
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 2: before your feet hit the grind in the morning, your.

441
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 4: Life is fucked.

442
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:43,159
Speaker 3: That is very direct.

443
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 2: It is very direct. But it's like I do that

444
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 2: just to grab people's attention. Yeah yeah, I actually go,

445
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 2: oh shit, you know, you're just inputs as soon as

446
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:56,120
Speaker 2: you wake up.

447
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,360
Speaker 4: It is anti stoic to do that.

448
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 2: Marcus Aurelius would be turning in his rigging grieve at the.

449
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 4: Thought of that, say you've done oh sorry, that was

450
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 4: controlled challenge commitments, commitment.

451
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 2: So we talked about being fully engaged in life, but

452
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 2: it's also about having.

453
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 4: A sense of meaning and purpose in life. Yep. And

454
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 4: here's the thing. And I think about this a lot,

455
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 4: as you.

456
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 2: Know, you know, I'll sit of an evening and just

457
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 2: sit and look out at the sky and think about

458
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 2: purpose and all that. And and I I've come to

459
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 2: the conclusion that Victor Frankel was one hundred percent right.

460
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 4: Life has no meaning other than what you give it.

461
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 3: Yeah.

462
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I would encourage people to just sit at

463
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 2: night and look at the stars and think about this shit,

464
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,160
Speaker 2: right that that, yes, there's us, and we see the

465
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,679
Speaker 2: world through our lanes and everything is about us and

466
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 2: our emotions.

467
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 4: And experience and who's doing what they are. But we

468
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 4: are a.

469
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 2: Tiny frigginspect like that stoic view from above if you're

470
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 2: going to sit there and you're in your own head,

471
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 2: and then you zoom out and you go to one

472
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 2: hundred feet and you open the lens or one hundred

473
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,400
Speaker 2: meters up in the sky, like you take in hundreds

474
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 2: of people or thousands, right, who are all having their

475
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 2: own individual experiences. And then the higher you get in

476
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 2: the sky, the more and more people that there are,

477
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 2: and not only people, insects, animals, all having their own experience, right,

478
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 2: And then you zoom out in the space, and like,

479
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 2: like when you understand how big the universe is, it

480
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 2: is very clear that we are nothing, absolutely nothing, And

481
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:50,360
Speaker 2: so the only conclusion that you can draw unless you're

482
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 2: a complete Holy Joe, right and who thinks that this

483
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 2: is all about God? And you know that's another podcast,

484
00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 2: but that the only conclusion that you can draw is

485
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 2: about meaning and purpose.

486
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 4: Is the only meaning and purpose in life? Is what

487
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 4: I give it. Yeah, yeah, there's no fucking purpose, fairy.

488
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 4: There is no purpose fairy.

489
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 1: But do you know what this reminds me of is

490
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: it reminds a mere bit of Ikey guy, that Japanese concept.

491
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 1: And I'm not talking about the then diagram I guy

492
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,360
Speaker 1: that everybody knows because that is actually it's wrong interpretation.

493
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 1: It's not Ikey Guy that and that is another podcast.

494
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 1: I think I've done a Mojo Monday on that. But

495
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: Ikey Guy, Iki means life and guy means value or

496
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 1: worse roughly. But the word iki they actually have. The

497
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: Japanese have two words for life. They have a word

498
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 1: iki for daily life and they have a word life

499
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 1: for your whole life. And this makes so much sense

500
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: to me.

501
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:49,880
Speaker 3: And how much.

502
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 1: Easier is it to think of is to separate the

503
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: meaning of your life to today and the meaning of

504
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: your life as a whole. And what Ikey Guy got

505
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: does is it it helps you recognize the small things

506
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: every single day.

507
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 3: That are actually giving your life meaning.

508
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: And that could be as simple as sipping your coffee

509
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: in the morning, can be playing with your dog. It

510
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 1: can be gardening, a hobby, being with your kids, whatever

511
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: it is, These really small meaningful things are what gives

512
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 1: your life purpose. It doesn't have to be this huge thing.

513
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 1: So yes, absolutely what you were saying. You can recognize

514
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 1: how insignificant we are in the whole scheme of things,

515
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: in the whole scheme of the universe, and then you

516
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 1: can then drill it down to your life right now

517
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: and what gives meaning to you every single day, because

518
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: if you're not looking for it, you won't see it.

519
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what I mean. There's no purpose for it.

520
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 4: And you know what really brought that home to me.

521
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 2: I remember being in Singapore doing a workshop must be

522
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 2: a decade ago, probably more actually, and I've gone to

523
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: Japanese restaurant. I was on my own and I was

524
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 2: watching the chef making food and I've never seen somebody

525
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 2: so engaged in what they were doing. It was, it was,

526
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 2: It was actually quite a profound moment. And because I've

527
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 2: known a little bit about Japanese culture, but just that

528
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 2: whole about how they throw themselves into whatever they're doing.

529
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 4: And then it was when I was.

530
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 2: Watching him that an old Zen Cohen finally made sense.

531
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 2: So zen Cohen's Zen Buddhism. These are proverbs that I

532
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 2: was into a bit of Zen Buddhism in my early

533
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 2: twenties and I just couldn't get my head around it,

534
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 2: and particularly one thing where there's this the student monk

535
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 2: who goes to his master and he says, Master, how

536
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 2: can I be enlightened? And the master said to him,

537
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 2: have you had your breakfast? And he said yes, and

538
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 2: he said, then wash your bowl. And for years I was.

539
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 4: Like, what the fuck does that mean? It was on

540
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 4: when I saw this guy.

541
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 2: Being so engrossed in what he did and making this

542
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 2: beautiful thing on a clay it that I was like,

543
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 2: that's what it's about, right, It's about being and it's hardiness, commitment,

544
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: being fully engaged in whatever you do.

545
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 4: And it links in with the stoics.

546
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 2: Right, you play your give and role well and that

547
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 2: means that whatever your circumstances right.

548
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 4: Now is you do it well. Right.

549
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 2: If you're making your bed, you do a brilliant job

550
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 2: of making your bed. Right, it's just do what it

551
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 2: is well, be fully engaged and fully immersed in it.

552
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 4: And that's mindfulness, right it is.

553
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: And that's what I'm trying to teach Oscot out fifteen

554
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,719
Speaker 1: year old Sam tis even if it's boring, do it

555
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: well and just I cape sort of repainting it over

556
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: and Ivy.

557
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 3: Team because.

558
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 4: The first step with him is remembering to do it

559
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 4: and then.

560
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 3: Go on to commitment to connection.

561
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 4: So connection, look, I have added it because.

562
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 2: And particularly when it comes to stress, right, connection is

563
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 2: so important. The human brain is fundamentally a social organ

564
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 2: We know that the single biggest or are one of

565
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 2: the biggest predictors are sorry, let me let me do

566
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 2: that again. Being lonely is as bad for your health.

567
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 4: As smoking ten cigarettes.

568
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 2: Right, And and a massive Harvard study has shown around

569
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 2: longevity is this is one of the key thing is

570
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 2: having having good relationships, right and then particularly in times

571
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 2: of stress, particularly because you know, I talked about the

572
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 2: Hanoi Hilton a lot, and and the and the tap code,

573
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 2: like if anybody hasn't read anything on Hanoi Hilton, just

574
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 2: just to look it up and and just see what

575
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 2: these guys went through, particularly Jim Stockdale. But it was

576
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 2: the tap code and talking when I interviewed Lee Ellis

577
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 2: that I really got it that that that capital when

578
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 2: they tapped on the walls and the pipes to each

579
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 2: other when they were being tortured or solitary confinement, that

580
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 2: was what kept them going, right. And it's when there's adversity,

581
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 2: you know, it is about relationships with other people. And

582
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 2: I know that from being in the military, even you know,

583
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 2: a less extreme form of adversity like and I was

584
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 2: talking about this a CrossFit to somebody like going suffering

585
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 2: together is so much easier than suffering along. Yeah, right,

586
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: And anybody who's been who trains hard knows that if

587
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 2: you're training hard with other people, it's a lot.

588
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 4: More doable than doing it on your own. Right.

589
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 2: There's something about that shured suffering and being through it

590
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 2: together or at least having somebody along your side whenever

591
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 2: you're really struggling. So I think connection is hugely important,

592
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 2: and that's about developing meaningful relationships in your life. And

593
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 2: are not sitting back and going they haven't contacted me,

594
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 2: get the fuck out of your personal petty party, and

595
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 2: be the one who reaches out to all friends or

596
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 2: reaches out to repo relationships rather than waiting for this

597
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 2: to happen, right, So for me, it's about be the connector.

598
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's key.

599
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: I think with friendships and connections with people too, I

600
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: think there are so many different layers and to accept.

601
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 3: That as well.

602
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: Because you might have just a few friends who you

603
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: know will be in your trenches if something is going

604
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,239
Speaker 1: to go wrong, they are the ones that are going

605
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: to be are going to be there for you, and

606
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: it kind of filters out to other friends who might

607
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: serve a different purpose, you know, and that's okay too.

608
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: We have we have a lot of friends that have

609
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: kind of different, different purposes.

610
00:33:58,400 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 4: For our life.

611
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 3: I think that's really important too.

612
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 4: Yeah.

613
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 2: But the deeper you get to know someone and the

614
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 2: more vulnerability you share it with them, the more they

615
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 2: move into that camp of being in your chrene.

616
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

617
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, not always, but yeah, allowing allowing that, Yeah, opening

618
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: yourself up, being open to that. So just before we

619
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: move on to the next part, So all of this

620
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: is in your book, like, I know, the story of

621
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 1: Jim Stockdell is in your book as well. So somebody

622
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: might be listening to this and especially when you're talking

623
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: about control and challenge and go, oh jeez, I don't sound.

624
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 3: Like a very hearty person.

625
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: Is there hope for them? Like, so what is it?

626
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: How do you train yourself to be hearty?

627
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, one hundred percent, there's hope. I mean I've done

628
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 4: a study on it.

629
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 2: My PSC research were we did an intervention and we

630
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 2: tested people's heartiness. We tested their resilience and their gratitude,

631
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 2: their perceived stress in their life. We also did cognitive

632
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 2: function tests and we got improvements across.

633
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 4: The board in eight weeks. Right. So this is and

634
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 4: this is why I love it, because you will not

635
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 4: see the needle move that much on resilience. Right.

636
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 2: I've done other studies where we've seen the moddle needle

637
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 2: move a little bit on resilience, but not as much

638
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:19,240
Speaker 2: as hardiness.

639
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 4: And that's why I'm really excited about.

640
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,919
Speaker 2: It, is there's more real world outcomes and you can

641
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 2: learn to be hardier, right, whereas resilience is a bit harder,

642
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 2: certainly much harder actually to move the needle on. And

643
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 2: I think that's well recognized in the academic literature.

644
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, okay, So we talked about the four

645
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 1: seeds of psychological heartiness.

646
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 2: Actually, maybe just give people and just a little tippit

647
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 2: about what they could do in each one of those

648
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 2: rather than just say you can learn it and go

649
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 2: buy my book. Hey, you can't buy my book. And

650
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 2: there's much more into it. But but for control, orientation

651
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 2: is having that focus on what you can control right

652
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 2: when when shit happens.

653
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 4: Write it down.

654
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 2: Divide the page in two on the left hand side,

655
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 2: right down everything that's in zone one, what is within

656
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 2: my will, my part, my control, and may be a

657
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 2: bit down the bottom that's not in my control, but

658
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 2: in my influence. And on the right hand side of

659
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 2: the page of write down everything that's not in your

660
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,439
Speaker 2: control or influence, what other people think, what they say,

661
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 2: what they do, the past, the future COVID nineteen all that.

662
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 3: Shit market forces, automatic thoughts.

663
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 4: Automatic thoughts and emotions. Yeah, yeah, they're not in your control,

664
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 4: but how you respond is.

665
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 2: And even if in some situation the right hand side

666
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 2: of the page is full and you're struggling with something

667
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 2: that's within your control, the one that is always in

668
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 2: your control is how you.

669
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 4: Choose to respond to your circumstances.

670
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 2: Victor Frankel was all over this like a spider monkey,

671
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 2: as with the Stoics two thousand years before them. Right,

672
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 2: So there's that doing that Zones of control exercises is

673
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 2: really really important. And then you know, when it comes

674
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,399
Speaker 2: to behavior, because we'll get into this a little bit.

675
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 4: You know, you can control your environment.

676
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 2: So if you want to be healthier and get alcohol

677
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 2: out of the house, right, get ship food out of

678
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 2: the house. Don't tell yourself it's for your kids, because

679
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 2: it's fucking your kids up. Just get it out of

680
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 2: the house, right. Put healthy food at the front of

681
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 2: the fridge rather than the back, because the research shows

682
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 2: you're much more likely to eat.

683
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,479
Speaker 4: Something at the front. So when your kids come.

684
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 2: Home from school having healthy food chopped up on a plate,

685
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 2: they're much more likely to go and eat it.

686
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 4: Right. Put your exercise gear at the end of your bed,

687
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 4: keep it in your car.

688
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 2: You know one thing you know that I always tell you,

689
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 2: even if I come home from mark at eleven o'clock

690
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,240
Speaker 2: at night, I get changed into my exercise gear because

691
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 2: it's an enabler of other ones. So it's really about

692
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 2: setting up your environment to succeed.

693
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 4: Controlling your environment.

694
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 2: As soon as much as you can, avoiding people who

695
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 2: are toxic, right, getting out of those relationships, all those

696
00:37:58,040 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 2: sorts of things. So there are a couple of things

697
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 2: that you can do in control. And I got much

698
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 2: more in the book in Challenge Orientation. It's really you know,

699
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 2: when change comes along, is go, right, well, how can

700
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 2: this help me to grow and learn?

701
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 4: How can I dive.

702
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 2: Into it, embrace the change rather than resist the change,

703
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 2: because we're only alive because.

704
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 4: We're changing all the time at a cellular level. Right.

705
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 2: And I think the other thing is just getting into

706
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 2: the habit of viewing adversity as a challenge and just

707
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 2: saying to me, right this, this is a worthy opponent

708
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 2: right now, right, and so what am I going to do?

709
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 2: If I was an elite athlete, then this was what

710
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 2: would I do?

711
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 4: Right?

712
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,720
Speaker 2: And so really trying to just just keep thinking about

713
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 2: that challenge orientation and from a commitment perspective.

714
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 4: I think writing a.

715
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 2: Tombstone statement is hugely important, right, And I actually in

716
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,439
Speaker 2: workshops get people to do this in three minutes most

717
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 2: of the time, and I say, who here has a

718
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 2: clear sense of meaning and purpose in their life that

719
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 2: they could communicate to me right now. I'm not going

720
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:07,760
Speaker 2: to ask you, but I just want to show your hands.

721
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 2: Always less than ten percent of people put their hand up, right,

722
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 2: And then three minutes later, well after a brief set

723
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 2: of instructions, way more than half people have a starter, right.

724
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 2: And I just get people to write down what would

725
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 2: you like to be written on your tombstone that would

726
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 2: sum up your contribution to your little corner of the universe, Right,

727
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 2: that's it, And think about the stuff that you're passionate about, right,

728
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 2: but also think about what were if it was taken

729
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 2: away from you would cause a massive chasm because that

730
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 2: starts to give you your clue as to what's really important

731
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 2: to you. And I think the other thing at the

732
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 2: important here, which you're big on, is getting clear on

733
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 2: your values.

734
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I think you know.

735
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 2: I'm a religious I'm a recovering Catholic. I've been recovery

736
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 2: for forty years. But I actually think a chunk of

737
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 2: the problems in our society is the breakdown of religion.

738
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 2: And it doesn't matter what the religion is, whether it's Christianity, Islam, Judaism,

739
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 2: any of those religions. They all give people a sense

740
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 2: of purpose, a connection into something that's bigger than themselves.

741
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 2: But they all give them a guide of hard to live,

742
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,280
Speaker 2: a set of moral values, and then when you don't

743
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 2: have that, you have to do the work otherwise you

744
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 2: enter into an existential vacuum. So for me, it's about

745
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 2: getting clear on your values. And there's a couple of

746
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 2: things that you can do value strengths. There's overlapped in

747
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 2: those things. I like the via character strengths. There's a

748
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 2: Clifton strengths as well. There's other things on values you

749
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 2: can do on the internet.

750
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 4: But I like a little bit of strengths and some

751
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 4: values that is to me, and this.

752
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 1: Is kind of an act spake exceptions commitment theory. Values

753
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: are your compass. So when you are at that crossroads

754
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: of making a choice and you especially if that in

755
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 1: a voice is in your head that's saying, let's just

756
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 1: use the example of like, oh, I'm so tired and

757
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 1: I really can't be bothered going to the gym. It's

758
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 1: going to be too hard, and you're at that crossroads

759
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 1: and should I go or shouldn't I go? If your values,

760
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 1: if one of your values is to be fit and healthy,

761
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 1: then you use that as your compass to go to

762
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,720
Speaker 1: put on your gear and to go to the gym

763
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 1: and to work out as best that you can in

764
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 1: the circumstances that you're in that moment, rather than following

765
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: that other voice of no, I'm going to put my

766
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: jarmi's on and or my track is on and lie

767
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 1: on the sofa, so which you know you have to

768
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 1: make that choice in that moment. I mean maybe sometimes

769
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 1: lying on the sofa is what you need, but you

770
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,720
Speaker 1: need to make that choice. But your values give you

771
00:41:55,719 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: more of an intentional choice rather than a reactive choice.

772
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 4: One hundred percent. So yeah, that they would be the

773
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 4: things I would I would say around that.

774
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 2: And then from connection, it's really about doing the work

775
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 2: in terms of your relationships. And you know, we have

776
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,840
Speaker 2: these conversations with our kids all the time, because especially kids,

777
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 2: it's it's like me, me, me, me, me right, and

778
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 2: and that's natural. But you know, I've said to care

779
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 2: I've said to Oscar, and you have as well.

780
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:26,800
Speaker 4: You have to work at relationships.

781
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 2: You can't just expect that one side give give, given,

782
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:31,839
Speaker 2: your just take take take.

783
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 4: You've you've got to put effort in on all of

784
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 4: your relationships.

785
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 2: And that includes putting effort in to stay in touch,

786
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,399
Speaker 2: you know, on the other side of the world from

787
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of great mates, and I make an

788
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 2: effort to reach out to those guys and and and

789
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 2: lately I've decided to just you know, be a bit

790
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 2: more of a connector, you know. So there's yeah, yeah,

791
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 2: we talked about friends are on. There's people I've met

792
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 2: at cross fit, and you know, we have a chat

793
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 2: at CrossFit and stuff like that, and there there's a

794
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 2: couple of them that I get on with, and I

795
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 2: just thought I'm just gonna reach out, so, you know,

796
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 2: because we've mentioned golfers, like, hey, how about we have

797
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 2: a game of golf together, you know, be the connector

798
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 2: rather than where to be connected. Yeah, it's about getting

799
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:19,720
Speaker 2: on the front foot.

800
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: And that can actually go link with challenge too, because

801
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 1: there are some people who are maybe more introverted. It

802
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 1: may be a big thing for them to have the

803
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: courage to actually reach out to people. There may be

804
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: a fear of rejection, so so you can bring in

805
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 1: the control and the challenge in there as well to

806
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: actually take that action to connect with paper.

807
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:44,399
Speaker 4: Yeah.

808
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 2: And even your goal this year is to get rejected

809
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 2: five times.

810
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

811
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good one if you're dating, isn't it.

812
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:54,879
Speaker 4: That's right?

813
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:56,879
Speaker 3: How many rejections can I get?

814
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 1: All right, let's move on to physiologic called heartiness, because

815
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 1: you also include that in the book. So it's not

816
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 1: just about psychological hardiness. Tell us more about that.

817
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, So for me, this is this is another area

818
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 2: that I'm hugely passionate about me and a good made

819
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 2: of mind. Professor Grant Schofield. People will know about this.

820
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 2: You know, we are we are hormesis geeks. Hormesis is

821
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:25,800
Speaker 2: nature's heartiness. There are over six hundred known.

822
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,439
Speaker 4: Hormetic stressors out there.

823
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 2: These are stressors that at high levels can kill you,

824
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 2: but at low to moderate levels induce stress resistance. Right,

825
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:41,240
Speaker 2: So I'll just give you an example. There's a billion

826
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 2: years of evolution that covers fruitflies, worms, rodents, cats, dogs, primates,

827
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 2: and humans. Right, there's a billion years of an evolutionary

828
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 2: journey in that all of those species react the same

829
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,359
Speaker 2: to the stress of cold, the stress of heat, and

830
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:07,919
Speaker 2: the stress of physical activity by upregulating protective genes. Right,

831
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 2: So it's initiated by heat shock proteins. These are stress

832
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 2: response genes that they trigger, these protective pathways, the antioxidant

833
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 2: response pathway, and HIF one. These are These are are

834
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 2: very well established, grounded and evolution and pathways that make

835
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 2: the host more hardy because of exposure to that stress.

836
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 2: Because it's basically nature's way of adapting to whether it's

837
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 2: cold or lots of physical activity or hate. Shit, this

838
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 2: is a stressor and it may well come along again.

839
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 2: So I need to adapt so that I can handle

840
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 2: that more.

841
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 4: Right. And the one that everybody gets is exercise. Right.

842
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,320
Speaker 4: You know, you think you'd be a musculo skeletal system

843
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 4: if you don't have to exercise. You lose it, right,

844
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 4: and you will lose your muscles, they will atrophy, You'll

845
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 4: lose your strength, your speed, your part all of that.

846
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 4: And it's when you exercise that you get bigger, faster, stronger.

847
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 4: Why do you get bigger, faster, stronger because.

848
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 2: Of stress response proteins, Because you're putting a stress on

849
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 2: your body and your body then adapts to it.

850
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:18,399
Speaker 4: Right.

851
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 2: But we know sunlight is another hermetic stressor you don't

852
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 2: get any sunlight or very little sunlight. We now know

853
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 2: that your risk of almost every cancer other than skin

854
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 2: cancer goes through the roof. But you get too much

855
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 2: sunlight and you get skin cancer. Right.

856
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 4: So this is the classic hormetic nothing. When there's none

857
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 4: of it, it's not good for you.

858
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 2: A little bit of it is good, bit more is better,

859
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 2: but there's a point where it starts to tail off,

860
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,799
Speaker 2: you lose some of the benefits and eventually it starts

861
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 2: to become bad for you. So cold exposure right, which

862
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 2: is all the reage right now. And it's really interesting.

863
00:46:55,040 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 2: I see people, and it's generally blokes on Instagram doing

864
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 2: to do ten minutes in a two degree icepath, and

865
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 2: I think you fucking dickhead, all you're doing is flexing

866
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 2: your ego because when I spoke to Professor Mac Tipton,

867
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 2: he said, the vast majority of the benefits of cold

868
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 2: exposure come in the first thirty seconds, and if you

869
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,839
Speaker 2: stay in too long, you start to negatively affect your

870
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 2: immune system.

871
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 4: It's a typical hormatic stressor, right.

872
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:31,240
Speaker 2: So, and there are nutritional stressors that are out there.

873
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 2: So that the second half of the book is dedicated

874
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 2: to physiology, right, and how we can train and manipulate

875
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 2: our physiology to optimize our heartiness because for me it's that.

876
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 2: But as a psychophysiologist, I think anybody who tells you

877
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 2: that you can optimize mental health with thinking skills is

878
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 2: fucking batshit crazy and should be locked up.

879
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 4: The body and the brea in our one.

880
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:05,799
Speaker 2: Entity, right, it's it's an it's an ecosystem. And yes,

881
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 2: your psychology influences your physiology. Anybody who's been chronically stressed

882
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:13,320
Speaker 2: knows that, right, you get arable ball syndrome, you get tension,

883
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 2: you get anxiety, which is actually a physiological thing rather

884
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 2: than a psychological it's a bit of both. But but

885
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 2: we know that your physiology has a massive effect on

886
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 2: your psychology.

887
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 1: And it just it just beffles me that the d

888
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 1: s M five, which is the bible of of diagnosing

889
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: people with disorder different mental health disorders, doesn't include physiology,

890
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:40,280
Speaker 1: or if there is, it's minimal.

891
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 2: Look, if I was Tzarre of the universe, I would

892
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 2: make every single physiology psycho psychologist, counselor, and especially psychiatrists

893
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 2: do a deep course on physiology, understand the physiology of

894
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:04,800
Speaker 2: physical activity, on how that massively influences neurotransmitter systems, brain structure,

895
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 2: blood flow, neurogenesis, angiogenesis, all of this stuff.

896
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 4: But our nutrition has a massive effect on it as well.

897
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 4: That we know now that the diet high and ultraprocessed

898
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 4: foods increases the risk.

899
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 2: Of common mental health disorders by fifty three percent.

900
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,800
Speaker 4: That is absolutely huge.

901
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,879
Speaker 2: Right, And we know that a good diet on its

902
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 2: own can help to resolve mental health disorders.

903
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 4: Right.

904
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 2: We know that vinamin D on its own is actually

905
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,360
Speaker 2: an effect of antidepressant. And you know there's a whole

906
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 2: heap of things. Even curcumen can be an effective antidepressant.

907
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 2: But then when if you combine exercise, good diet, sleep, hygiene,

908
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 2: time and nature and sunlight, you combine all of those things,

909
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 2: it would pess all over any psychological and pharma pharmacological

910
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 2: in direction.

911
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's crazy.

912
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 2: But together this is this is my passion, is that

913
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 2: psycho physiological approach. I think we have to have both

914
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 2: them and me and Grant want to run research using

915
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:25,360
Speaker 2: a hardiness approach versus standard of care, whether it's for

916
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 2: depression or anxiety. I think they're the too easiest to study.

917
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,320
Speaker 2: And I'll tell you what, I would bet my bottom

918
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 2: dollar my house so would pawn my children on the ICUP.

919
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 4: I really would.

920
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 1: I mean, this is all about prevention, isn't it. And

921
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: I just wanted to quickly before we finish up, talk

922
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: quickly about the Hardiness school project that we're working on,

923
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:52,839
Speaker 1: because what I love about heartiness is this is.

924
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 3: A preventative approach. And I think if.

925
00:50:55,719 --> 00:51:00,359
Speaker 1: We can raise our kids to be hearty kids, it

926
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 1: is going to put them in such a good position

927
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 1: when they're older in life to prevent them from being

928
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 1: diagnosed with a disorder, for them to be able to

929
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 1: face the challenges that are inevitably got they're going to

930
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 1: come across in.

931
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,800
Speaker 4: Life and to grow and to grow from those challenges

932
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 4: that Yeah.

933
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, So we are working with Wulnable College to do

934
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: this hardiness Schools project.

935
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:27,839
Speaker 3: Do you want to just talk about sort of how

936
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:28,760
Speaker 3: that came about?

937
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 2: And yeah, So I've done a talk to a bunch

938
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:37,279
Speaker 2: of school principles on heidiness and then off that lots

939
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 2: of principles said can you come in and talk to

940
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 2: my staff? So I did a whole heap of schools

941
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:46,399
Speaker 2: and I generally do the schools at a massively cut

942
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:48,239
Speaker 2: price because I want to give back a little bit.

943
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 2: And then Warnable College came up to me afterwards and said,

944
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 2: I will reach out to me a bit afterwards and said, hey,

945
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 2: what about create seeing a twenty week year ten elective

946
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:06,800
Speaker 2: on on hardiness for the skills Because all the teachers

947
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:08,360
Speaker 2: went that was bloody awesome.

948
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 4: Our kids need this.

949
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 2: And I remember coming home and telling you about it,

950
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 2: and you nearly paid yourself with em.

951
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 4: And so did I.

952
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 2: But but you know, it's the stuff that we are

953
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 2: both very very passionate about.

954
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 4: And you know, you work with kids way more than

955
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 4: I do.

956
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 2: But you know, we've had We were working with the

957
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:36,840
Speaker 2: teacher there called gold who's who's brilliant, and we're mapping

958
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 2: it to the Victorian education standards and.

959
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 4: The whole thing. And and you know, we were all.

960
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:45,839
Speaker 2: Daled in on this that that that the gold as

961
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:47,360
Speaker 2: well as the two of us is it has to

962
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:48,320
Speaker 2: be experiential.

963
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 4: So it can't just be theory. It's it's experience. Right.

964
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 2: So we're going to teach the kids all the theory

965
00:52:56,680 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 2: about control, challenge, commitment, connection and in all the physiology exercise, nutrition,

966
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 2: time and nature, you know, all of these things, and

967
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 2: they're going to be doing challenging things, you know, but

968
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 2: reflecting on.

969
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 4: Them, right.

970
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 2: And I think that that reflection process, you know, a

971
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 2: little bit of education.

972
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:18,239
Speaker 4: Here's what it is.

973
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 2: Yes, this is going to be difficult. Now let's do

974
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 2: the hard thing. Now let's reflect did you learn what

975
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 2: was hard? And and we're going to be assessing right

976
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 2: at the start. And that's the geek in me is like,

977
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 2: we need to assess to see how they how we

978
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,240
Speaker 2: can move the needle on their on their well being,

979
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 2: on a number of other things. So we're doing a

980
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 2: number of of well established assessments on kids, not just

981
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 2: around mental health, but but around their ability to lean

982
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:54,239
Speaker 2: into challece. There's actually a heartiness thing that's been adapted

983
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 2: for school kids as well.

984
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 4: We're looking at their perceived.

985
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:00,839
Speaker 2: Stress, like does that drop over to twenty weeks, because

986
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 2: that would be pretty critical, you know, gratitude and life.

987
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:05,840
Speaker 4: There are validated surveys.

988
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 2: That I've used before in my research that we're using

989
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 2: and adapting and bringing extra ones in for kids because

990
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:13,439
Speaker 2: we we then want to at the end of it

991
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 2: and get the results and go to the Victorian government

992
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:19,359
Speaker 2: and they and other governments and say, hey, how about

993
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 2: we rule this right because we were talking about this

994
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 2: and and I voice my frustration to you often is

995
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 2: like I don't want my fucking kids coming home from

996
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 2: school knowing about another mental health condition.

997
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:35,720
Speaker 3: I want my kids language now medical language.

998
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, because and and it's you know, this is

999
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 2: why I'm bold, because it makes me put my heir out.

1000
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 2: Is that the research is showing that the more you

1001
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 2: talk about emotions and feelings, the more people are likely

1002
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:53,960
Speaker 2: to identify with negative emotions and feelings.

1003
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:55,760
Speaker 4: And that's amplified for kids.

1004
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 2: And the more you talk about mental health labels and

1005
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 2: what they like, the more they're likely to identify with

1006
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 2: those labels.

1007
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 4: Right.

1008
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 2: So, and this is where the tension is, right, there's

1009
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 2: been I don't want to bag it out completely.

1010
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 4: I think I think that there used to be a

1011
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:13,720
Speaker 4: nuance view that.

1012
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:17,720
Speaker 2: The mental health awareness stuff has been really really good

1013
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:21,800
Speaker 2: for lots of people who would never.

1014
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 4: Have spoken out there now speaking out. But with anything,

1015
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:26,240
Speaker 4: there are.

1016
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 2: Unintended consequences, and the unintended consequences are now starting to

1017
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:32,719
Speaker 2: become clear and clear. And this is not just my idea.

1018
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:37,360
Speaker 2: This is research from Lucy Folks and others that show,

1019
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 2: and she's actually done a shittyper research on this that

1020
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 2: the more you talk about it, the more they're likely

1021
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 2: to identify with it, and especially teenagers and teenage girls,

1022
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 2: and because their development is social as well, so you know,

1023
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 2: when they're in a group and a couple of people

1024
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 2: have been diagnosed with anxiety, they want to align with

1025
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 2: that and they actually want a disorder to be accepted,

1026
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:08,720
Speaker 2: some of them, not everybody. But these are unintended consequences.

1027
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:12,320
Speaker 2: And what's happening is that we're for a lot of kids.

1028
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:16,239
Speaker 2: So some kids, great, it's been a shiap your for them,

1029
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:17,880
Speaker 2: for a lot of kids who are actually making their

1030
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 2: mental health worsh Yeah.

1031
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:23,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's not about ignoring emotions or feelings. I

1032
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 1: think there's this balance of and acceptance of who we

1033
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:31,880
Speaker 1: are as being human and normal responses to life challenges

1034
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 1: and being able to make a room for that while

1035
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:38,439
Speaker 1: you turn your attention to your values to these four

1036
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:43,200
Speaker 1: seas and incorporate this in your life. And I think

1037
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 1: the emotions and the feelings come with it. You know,

1038
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 1: it's not about just kind of squashing them down. We

1039
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:50,359
Speaker 1: have to accept it.

1040
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 3: As humans, we.

1041
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 1: Feel a landscape of emotions, but we don't want them

1042
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:56,759
Speaker 1: to be dictating what we do.

1043
00:56:57,120 --> 00:56:57,359
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1044
00:56:57,400 --> 00:56:59,840
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And it comes back to Japanese psychology, you know,

1045
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,440
Speaker 2: is about living a life of action, that that that's

1046
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 2: driven by our values rather than a life that is

1047
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 2: driven by our feelings and emotions.

1048
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:09,920
Speaker 4: That's when we get into big trouble. Yeah.

1049
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:12,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, we are going to finish it there.

1050
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 1: It's watch this space with the schools project and do you.

1051
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 2: Look any teachers who are out there who might be

1052
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 2: interested and you know, reach out to us because we

1053
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 2: were doing this in Mornable College, and then we're going

1054
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 2: to look to expand it. So any schools, any parents,

1055
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 2: you know, flickless to teachers and let's let's get a

1056
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 2: list of people who who might be our schools that

1057
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 2: might be interested in this being rolled out to because

1058
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 2: I want my kids to have life skills.

1059
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1060
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 3: Absolutely, absolutely.

1061
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 1: All right, well, I'm going to catch everyone on Monday

1062
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:49,120
Speaker 1: for my Joe Monday and you will be back for

1063
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:50,120
Speaker 1: your wisdom Wednesday.

1064
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 3: Thanks for joining me, Dr Paul Taylor on the Paul

1065
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 3: Tyler Podcast.

1066
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 4: Thanks for having me