WEBVTT - The cage and the conviction: Peter Greste Pt.2 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective see aside of life the average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.080 exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.400 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:49.280 This is part two of my chat with journalist Peter Gresta, 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:53.160 who was locked up in an Egyptian prison for terrorism offenses. 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:56.680 In part one, we talked about Peter's career reporting from 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:59.480 some of the most hostile locations in the world, and 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.160 how is it rested on trumped up charges in Egypt 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:06.120 for doing his job. In part two, Peter spoke to 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:09.680 us about his fight for freedom, the ongoing impact from 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:12.600 his time in prison and his passion for free speech 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:16.560 and the rights of journalists to do their job. Oh 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:19.160 one other thing. We also spoke to him about having 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:23.040 famous Australian actor Richard Roxborough play him in the feature film. 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:26.720 I came away from our chat inspired. Peter's a pretty 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:31.000 impressive person. Have a listen. Peter Gresser, Welcome back to 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:34.919 part two of I Catchkillers. I've just made some adjustments 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:36.560 to some of the questions I was going to ask 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:38.840 you do you shot me down? And it's probably the 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:42.640 most silliest question of asked on the podcast, what happened 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:48.200 in solitary confinement? To which you answered nothing? You've been 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:52.120 so clear. Can you expand on that? I joke and 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:55.760 we joke about about the time you have in prison. 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:57.360 But I think you've got to see the light in 0:01:57.400 --> 0:01:59.760 the darkness, and a lot of people have sat in 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:02.720 your seat that have been through some difficult times. You've 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:05.280 got to find the human that keep you, keep you surviving. 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:09.639 Yeah, you do. It's not always easy if you can 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:11.960 get into a very dark place. But I think I 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:15.400 found two that it was. The secret was not to 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:18.119 take it personally. If I took it personally, then I'd 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:21.840 get into a very dark, dark place of anger and resentment. 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:25.480 But it was about that. If I saw it as 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:28.560 as as an attack on not on anything that I'd done, 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:31.400 but on what I'd represented, then I could say it 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:34.040 is something that was that was it was a fight 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:37.000 worth worth taking. 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:39.360 I understand what you're saying. In fact, I pulled the 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:43.920 looks like we're working in kohouts here that I pulled 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:45.919 out a quote that touches on that. Then I wanted 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:49.400 to talk about that, and you mentioned it in Part 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:52.280 one briefly, but just a quote, a quote from your 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:56.360 your book which in context was a turning point in 0:02:56.520 --> 0:02:59.040 prison for you where you thought, Okay, this is what 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:01.160 it's about. Just the quote out and get you to 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:04.520 expand on that, if you're could please suddenly. I find 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:07.720 great comfort in our situation. The idea that we have 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:10.799 come to stand for something much larger than ourselves mean 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:12.919 we have to fight on behalf of that bigger thing. 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:17.560 It isn't just Peter Grest, Muhammad Fami and Baya Muhammad 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:20.400 who are in the cage. It is every journalist working 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:23.600 in Egypt. More broadly, it's every journalist working with any 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:27.639 within any regime that considers using these kind of tactics 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:32.040 to silent public debate and critical voices. Defending that cause 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:36.600 is not just a heavy responsibility, it's hugely empowering one. Now, 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:41.280 I think that is to the point that you're talking about. 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:45.920 That's exactly it. That's exactly it. It suddenly becomes external, 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:50.160 It suddenly takes on significance and meaning that I hadn't 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:53.120 that that would otherwise have made the whole time in 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:58.440 prison time wasted. I spend four hundred days locked up. 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:00.520 That would have been four hundred day in my life 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:02.880 that I'd never get back. But in seeing it in 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:08.320 those terms, it meant that I it became a struggle 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:13.760 for that high principle. And I remember there's a there's 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:17.240 an extraordinary book that I was that I ended up 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:20.080 reading in prison once we were alloud, books called Man's 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:23.360 Search for Meaning by a guy called Victor Frankel. And 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:27.320 Frankel is an incredible character. He was a survivor of 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:30.440 the concentration camps in World War Two. He went in 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:37.839 as a Jewish neurologist, as a neuroscientist, and so I 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:41.279 had a particular interest in the way people's brains worked. 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:43.279 And he wrote the book as a way of trying 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:47.320 to understand the differences between those who survived and those 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:53.040 who didn't. And he said that he quoted nietzschee as saying, 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:56.960 he who has a why can bear anyhow. In other words, 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:00.280 as long as you have a reason that's externality you 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:03.560 for enduring the suffering that you're going through, you can 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:07.120 put up with pretty much anything. He was saying. It 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:11.159 can't be money, it can't be selfish, he said, God 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:14.960 sometimes is that provides that, but more often than not, 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:19.080 it's survival for a family. For a lot of the 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:22.479 concentration camp inmates, it was survival as a form of 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:26.920 resistance to the Nazis, to the genocide that they're experiencing. 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.960 For me, it became a fight for press freedom. Now 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:34.320 I know that sounds a little bit pious, a little 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:36.920 bit sort of arrogant, but that's the way I came 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:39.400 to see it, and that gave me a sense of 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:42.480 purpose and meaning and direction and a kind of vision 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.279 that helped they think, helped me get it get through. 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:49.279 I can understand what you're saying, because it would easily, 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:51.480 it would be easy to turn it in on yourself 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:55.640 and wallow in the self pity and why has this 0:05:55.680 --> 0:06:00.480 happened to me? You're thinking, Okay, there's a broader here, 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:04.640 and that can be very powerful to motivate you to 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:06.320 find the depth that you didn't think you had. 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:07.279 Exactly. 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:13.640 I just yeah, thinking thinking about it, I think all 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:17.360 the way you have to evolve and look deeply into 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:19.719 yourself to find find the answers to get through this. 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:23.040 But I just want to break down the whole period 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:26.800 of time when you're in prison, and I've got a 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:30.159 couple of areas I want to cover to get proper 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:33.880 legal representation. That was a nightmare in itself. Talk us 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:34.320 through that. 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:41.080 Yeah, it was so Al Jazeera hired a lawyer and 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:45.520 they were there for a while until they rather spectacularly 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:47.920 resigned in the middle of the trial. 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:52.000 They made it very public statement the way it was done. 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:56.039 To extraordinary public statement, and it was very damaging. But 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:59.800 to be honest, Gary, I really I was in a 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:02.680 lot of stress around that. But I also realized that 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:06.800 actually our legal representation was beside the point a first 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:10.320 year law student could have defended us, that the evidence 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:13.000 against us was so paper thin, was not existent? 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:16.560 Really what was it? Specific charges? Could break down of 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:17.560 the charges. 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:20.240 So we've been accused of aiding and a betting a 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:27.280 terrorist organization, being members of a terrorist organization, advocating terrorist ideology, 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:33.280 broadcasting false news with intent to undermine national security, financing terrorism. 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:36.000 I mean, these were about as serious as you could 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:38.440 get short of actually pulling a pin on a grenade 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:41.960 in a crowded room, short of a physical terrorist attack. 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:45.960 We were basically agents of a terrorist. 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:50.040 And the financing terrorism was they found some money that 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:52.480 you had that was your living expenses in an area 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:56.160 where the cash wasn't going to get you through, and 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:57.840 you've got some cash from your employer. 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:03.200 Absolutely absolutely, I mean the narrative I think that as 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:05.640 far as I can tell, I never really got to 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:08.680 the bottom of it. But the narrative was that we 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:13.160 would occasionally buy footage freelance footage from camera up from 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:15.600 guys that were operating that were covering the demonstrations that 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:17.680 were either too dangerous for us to get to or 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:20.600 that we physically just couldn't didn't have time to cover 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:24.440 all of the protests. And the theory was that those 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:28.160 guys couldn't have covered particularly Muslim Brotherhood protests unless they 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:30.640 are members of the Brotherhood, and so by paying them 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:36.080 for the footage, we were somehow financing terrorism. 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:38.360 It's creative thinking from law enforcement. 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:42.240 It's quite a long bow. But you know, as far 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:45.160 as I can tell, that's how that charge came through. 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:48.760 And did you get to access to your brief of evidence? 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:50.040 No? 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:53.160 No, because that's a pretty much a cornerstone of the 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:57.760 legal system here, that the prosecute that makes the allegations 0:08:57.800 --> 0:08:59.839 and presents a brief of evidence and then you get 0:08:59.880 --> 0:09:01.439 to who were so sect. 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:03.880 So he's he's one of the things to give you 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:08.600 an idea of just how crazy it was to get 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:11.280 access to some of the to the images that they 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:13.400 had in there in the evidence. We had to pay 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:18.640 for it because there was apparently a processing fee, and 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:21.000 we said, look, we wanted we wanted to get all 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.040 of the images that they had, and the figure they 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:25.560 came up with was literally in the hundreds of thousands 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:28.719 of dollars. They couldn't understand it, like, what the how 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:30.760 the hell do you come up with with that kind 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:36.920 of number, until we realized that one second of video 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:39.720 footage it's like film, it is made up of frames 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.920 of twenty four frames, and so they were counting each 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:47.400 frame as an individual image, and so if you wanted 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:51.040 five minutes of footage that they had as supposedly as evidence, 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:54.040 we were going to have to pay for literally thousands 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:59.880 and thousands of images. Absolutely insane, and of course we 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:00.679 coldn't affortunately. 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.600 I think you've been unfair there, you alos, so there's 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:09.679 foto copying costs. I'm with you on certain things, but 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:14.360 that's crazy, isn't it. So each each frame of the 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:17.720 role of film. Okay, so you didn't get access to 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:21.960 your brief The system I think you described as just 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:25.880 it wasn't rigid. It was just could swing anyway one 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:28.400 of them. It's almost like someone could get up. And 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:30.800 I think there was an example of a witness giving 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:34.920 evidence that it really just didn't stand up to any 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:38.840 the weakest cross examination, but it was just dismissed. Anyway. 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:41.880 I can't remember, but you said Peter was here six 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:45.120 months ago, when he's we can present evidence that you 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:47.840 weren't in the country six months ago, and that's just 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:50.840 dismissed with, oh, well, yeah, we all make mistakes, but yeah, 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:51.320 move on. 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:54.120 That was it. We were we'd been accused of being 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:57.760 involved with the Rabber massacre, which had happened six months earlier, 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:01.160 and at that time I was in Sudan, in South Sudan, 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:03.960 and they had my passport that had all of the 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:07.240 entry and exit stamps both in Egypt and also the 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:09.320 entry and exit stamps into South Sudan. So it was 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:13.320 blinding the obvious, and we were prepared and We're hoping 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:16.080 to present evidence of the stories that I'd produced from 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:18.240 South Sudan at the time of that massacre. 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:21.959 So I'm thinking from a prosecuting point of view, that 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:23.520 would take a hole in the brief a little bit 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:24.120 iry to. 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:27.240 Knock the evidence out of court. But no, they simply 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:30.760 said no. He was questioned about why, about the contradiction. 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:33.240 He just he kept saying I don't remember. 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:37.480 And describe the court saying for us, are you are 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:38.480 you in there in the dock? 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:41.600 Are you yes? So the docs was actually a cage, 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:47.480 a pretty intimidating cage, and it was designed it It 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:49.760 was a really big court room. It was more like 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:56.080 a theater, sort of raked seating, really really tall, tall, 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:59.360 tall ceilings, more like a cathedral. I guess in a 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:01.960 way had that sense of presence, and I think it 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:05.520 was designed to give them a sense be intimidating, and 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:07.199 as I said, because we were in the cage, I 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:09.640 think it was designed to make us look like we 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:13.920 were dangerous, dangerous terrorists that were a physical threat, even 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:16.679 if we should be, you know, have the opportunity to 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:18.880 leap across the court room. 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:22.240 Well, you know, you can't trust these terrorists, so spies, 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:27.280 you don't know what's going on. People that support your family, friends, 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:29.760 And how important was that when you're going through the 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:32.800 whole process, the prison, the battles through the court, How 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:36.240 important to you was the support that and were you 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:37.760 were aware how much support you've had? 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:42.360 So they were their presence of physical presence in the courtroom. 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:46.760 My brothers were there throughout the trial. That was really 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:50.880 really important to know that they had my back, that 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:55.160 we had people outside in Cairo, outside the cell that 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:58.600 were working to make sure that they were doing everything 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:01.319 they could, whether it was diplomatically or legally or politically. 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:06.679 You asked, you mentioned about the broader campaign, and I 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:10.000 had a vague idea that there was a lot going on, 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:13.319 but honestly, I had no real understanding of the scale 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:14.320 of the campaign. 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:18.439 You had some very heavy hitters in your corner, not 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:20.520 just your corner, the whole whole group of you that 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:27.400 got locked up at US. Even Obama was making comments 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:31.120 about it. And certainly you had the support from over here, 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:34.040 from the Foreign Affairs minister and everyone else. 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:37.120 Yeah, we did. And again I didn't realize it even 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:41.520 just just how how engaged Obama was. I saw him afterwards. 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:47.079 I was at an event in Washington, the FIGE, the 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:50.680 White House Correspondence and Your Dinner, and I met Obama 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:54.840 before the dinner and I introduced myself and he said, ah, 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:57.559 he said, you're that guy. He said, yeah, you wrote 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:01.360 two letters from prison to describing what you were going 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:03.440 through as an attack on press freedom. He said, I 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:06.920 saw those letters. I read them. He said, they really 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:09.280 helped me and understand he said, from that point, he said, 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:12.280 I always raised your case whenever I spoke to President CC. 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:17.400 Yeah. Okay, so you had the support and also your colleagues. 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:21.960 I think your colleagues unified to make sure your story 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:22.600 wasn't forgotten. 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:25.120 Yeah, journalists, journalist colleagues around the world. Yeah, and we 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:27.080 were very lucky. I mean, it was extraordinary the amount 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:29.280 of the amount of support that we had. And that was, 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:32.920 you know, partly because I think I and my colleagues family. 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:37.240 We'd worked across a large number of big international news organizations. 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:39.440 I'd worked for the BBC, of course, and for our 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:41.840 GAZEA and you know, I had a lot of colleagues. 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.680 I'd worked for Reuters, I had a lot of colleagues 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:49.120 here in Australia that knew my work. Family had worked 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:52.920 for CNN and others, And so there was a large 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:55.600 cohort of people around the world who knew us and 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:59.080 knew our work and the integrity of our work. But 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:03.120 it also recognized, as I did, that our case was 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:05.720 about them as well, that they needed to fight this 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:08.200 on for their own sake as much as. 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:12.520 For ours, and that that support, the external support than 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:16.880 from people in powerful positions. Could that filter through to you? 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:20.160 Did you understand or have you only appreciate it? You release? 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:22.640 I really only appreciate. I mean again, I was aware 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:26.200 of it, but not I didn't really fully understand it 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:29.720 until I was released and saw just how enormous that 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.400 campaign was and how many people were invested in. 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:36.280 It, the scale of it. Disagreements with your calcus. And 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:38.600 when I say disagreements, if you put anyone in the 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:41.800 room long enough there's going to be disagreements, but there 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:45.160 was a couple of things about the strategy, So the 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:46.960 way that you should approached do you want to just 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:48.200 break that down and. 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:53.600 So as you say, you when you're twenty three hours 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.520 inside a concrete box with somebody, then you're going to 0:15:56.560 --> 0:16:00.320 find their edges. And that's how it was. For It 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:03.480 was very, very difficult to be stuck in that kind 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:05.800 of environment. We didn't know each other beforehand before I 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:09.120 arrived in Cairo, so you're still just getting to know 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:12.280 each other when you're in that environment. But Famy in 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:15.400 particular and I had very very different understandings of what 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:21.080 was taking place. Fami saw this as political. He saw 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:27.640 what was happening as the result of Egypt's suspicions about 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:33.200 Katari interference in Egypt. The Katar had been accused of 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:36.440 supporting the Brotherhood. Because we worked for a Katari organization, 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:42.360 we were therefore a part of that conspiracy, and Fami 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:44.640 felt that if that was the case, then the solution 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:51.120 was to distance ourselves from Qatar, from our Jazeera and 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:53.800 to align ourselves as with Egypt to make up to 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:58.400 portray ourselves as friends of Egypt. Fami felt that that 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:02.600 was to play the political game that was inevitably the 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:06.400 real reason why we were there. I didn't see that. 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:09.439 I saw this as an attack on press freedom. I 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:11.679 felt that if there was, if there was genuinely an 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:14.800 issue around Katari malfisans, and I was the last person 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:16.600 to come after to make that case. There are plenty 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:19.400 of other Al Jazeera journalists who had much deeper connections 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:21.679 with the Brotherhood. No, none of them sinister, but you 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:24.240 could easily, much more easily have made a case that 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:26.639 it had nothing really to do with the evidence or 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:30.119 to do with Katari interference. Again, if you wanted to 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:32.479 make that case, then an Australian journalist had only been 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:34.399 in the country for a few weeks was again not 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:38.199 the right person to make that case. And so I 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:41.120 felt that this was about press freedom. They came after 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:44.320 us because we were politically convenient, because they had that narrative. 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:46.960 But I felt that we needed to fight this on 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:50.119 as an attack on press freedom. And the problem is 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:56.879 that those two narratives were irreconcilable. You couldn't run those 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:00.680 defenses in parallel. You couldn't start down nine track and 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:03.720 you couldn't start down one track, and suddenly change course 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:09.480 and so, and the stakes were really really really high, 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:12.480 Like if we got this, got this, got this debate wrong, 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:15.080 if we got the strategy wrong, then we were going 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:19.080 to We're going to suffer for it. Fami, I thought 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:23.520 Famy was being really cynical in playing, in playing that 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:28.040 political game and dangerous. Family thought I was being hopelessly 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:32.440 naive and taking a very Western view of a fundamentally 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:39.160 Arabic Middle Eastern crisis. Yeah, it was we we we came. 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:42.920 We came almost to blows on a few occasions, very very. 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:48.680 Tough after you were convicted, because the sequence of events 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:52.320 in the custody time you were in custody, You went 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:54.840 to trial, you were convicted of it, and then you 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:57.720 had an appeal coming up, or you had to lodge 0:18:57.760 --> 0:18:59.760 for an appeal, waited a month or so to find 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:03.240 out whever that appeal would be allowed. And there was 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:06.679 some very heated discussions as I understand, about whether they 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:10.520 go on the hunger strike, and that not just one, 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:12.960 but many of the people that you were with thought 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:16.040 that would be the way to let's force this issue. 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:19.520 We're not staying here any longer. Well to talk us 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:22.199 through that, because that's a that's a heavy that was. 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:27.960 That was another very very difficult period. So I spoke 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:31.560 I mentioned earlier Abdolfat, who was this incredible guy I 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:34.440 met at Lementorum, one of the earlier the first prison 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:37.920 that I was in, and he knew and understood about 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:40.720 hunger strikes, and a couple of the points that he 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:44.119 made was that if you're going to start a hunger strike, 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:47.280 you have to have the moral high ground, you have 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:52.840 to have all of the process on your side. You've 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:55.679 got to be demanding only things that the authorities have 0:19:55.760 --> 0:20:01.000 the capacity to give you. You can't simply demand free because 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:03.119 they're not going to do that. They're never going to 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:05.439 do it. If they acquiesce and they give you your 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:07.880 freedom because you went on hunger strike, then every prisoner 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:08.280 was going to go. 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:09.960 That makes sense. That makes sense. 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:13.080 So you've got to be You've got to be demanding 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:15.879 things that are achievable and that are your rights to have. 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:21.600 The trouble was that the process, the trial and our 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:25.720 appeal dragged on for such a long time that a 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:27.840 lot of the other guys that were in our case 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:31.959 were wanting to go on a hunger strike. They felt 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:34.439 that all of our supporters. They said that all of 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:37.679 our supporters outside prison are fighting for us. We have 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:40.119 to fight inside. We have to be seen to be 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:44.159 doing something inside as well. We're demanding our freedom. And 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:46.639 I could see why they were frustrated, why they wanted 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:49.359 to do it. But I felt, I agreed with the 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:53.200 love that the timing was wrong. We were still within 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:55.440 the process. We were still within the time frames for 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:58.640 that process to play out. It was dragging out forever. 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:01.960 And even if we didn't consider that they were being serious, 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:04.680 that they were just stringing us along, it was too 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:07.159 early to start a hunger strike because we couldn't. They 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:09.280 were never going to give us what we were demanding. 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:12.960 It was. It was performative, and I didn't I disagreed 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:15.159 with it. But the trouble was that I also knew 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:17.760 that if I joined the hunger strike then it would 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:19.919 get huge amounts of potential the white guy, because I 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:22.479 was the white guy, I was the outsider. If they 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:25.199 went on the hunger strike without me, it would have 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:27.680 been a meaningless it would have it would have disappeared 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:31.000 into the footnote in the in the local newspapers. 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:33.640 It was a hard position to be in for yourself. 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:37.000 I agree with your logic and one hundred percent agree 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:41.000 if you're going on the hunger strike, but they're simple responsible. 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:43.199 We're waiting to see if the appeal comes up or 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:46.320 they're not going to just open the prison doors. 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:49.320 Exactly. You're being you're being petulant, you're being premature, you're 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:51.520 being ridiculous. You've got no rights to demand this. 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:54.560 But your the strength that you had was in the unity. 0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:58.040 And then if the others went on the hunger strike 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:02.840 and you didn't, yeah, I would make life very hard 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:05.080 for you. And if you spent spent the rest of 0:22:05.080 --> 0:22:06.800 the time locked up with these people. 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:09.000 And that's not to say I was afraid of the 0:22:09.040 --> 0:22:11.080 hunger struck, and in fact, on the day that I 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:13.879 was released, I was. I decided that we have to 0:22:13.880 --> 0:22:17.480 start a hunger strike because the type that moment had 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:20.919 come that there was an appropriate point in which they 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:22.920