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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: This is part two of my chat with journalist Peter Gresta,

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Speaker 1: who was locked up in an Egyptian prison for terrorism offenses.

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Speaker 1: In part one, we talked about Peter's career reporting from

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Speaker 1: some of the most hostile locations in the world, and

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Speaker 1: how is it rested on trumped up charges in Egypt

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Speaker 1: for doing his job. In part two, Peter spoke to

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Speaker 1: us about his fight for freedom, the ongoing impact from

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Speaker 1: his time in prison and his passion for free speech

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Speaker 1: and the rights of journalists to do their job. Oh

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Speaker 1: one other thing. We also spoke to him about having

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Speaker 1: famous Australian actor Richard Roxborough play him in the feature film.

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Speaker 1: I came away from our chat inspired. Peter's a pretty

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Speaker 1: impressive person. Have a listen. Peter Gresser, Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: part two of I Catchkillers. I've just made some adjustments

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Speaker 1: to some of the questions I was going to ask

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Speaker 1: you do you shot me down? And it's probably the

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Speaker 1: most silliest question of asked on the podcast, what happened

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Speaker 1: in solitary confinement? To which you answered nothing? You've been

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Speaker 1: so clear. Can you expand on that? I joke and

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Speaker 1: we joke about about the time you have in prison.

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Speaker 1: But I think you've got to see the light in

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Speaker 1: the darkness, and a lot of people have sat in

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Speaker 1: your seat that have been through some difficult times. You've

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Speaker 1: got to find the human that keep you, keep you surviving.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you do. It's not always easy if you can

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Speaker 2: get into a very dark place. But I think I

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Speaker 2: found two that it was. The secret was not to

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Speaker 2: take it personally. If I took it personally, then I'd

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Speaker 2: get into a very dark, dark place of anger and resentment.

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Speaker 2: But it was about that. If I saw it as

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Speaker 2: as as an attack on not on anything that I'd done,

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Speaker 2: but on what I'd represented, then I could say it

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Speaker 2: is something that was that was it was a fight

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Speaker 2: worth worth taking.

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Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying. In fact, I pulled the

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Speaker 1: looks like we're working in kohouts here that I pulled

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Speaker 1: out a quote that touches on that. Then I wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk about that, and you mentioned it in Part

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Speaker 1: one briefly, but just a quote, a quote from your

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Speaker 1: your book which in context was a turning point in

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Speaker 1: prison for you where you thought, Okay, this is what

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Speaker 1: it's about. Just the quote out and get you to

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Speaker 1: expand on that, if you're could please suddenly. I find

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Speaker 1: great comfort in our situation. The idea that we have

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Speaker 1: come to stand for something much larger than ourselves mean

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Speaker 1: we have to fight on behalf of that bigger thing.

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Speaker 1: It isn't just Peter Grest, Muhammad Fami and Baya Muhammad

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Speaker 1: who are in the cage. It is every journalist working

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Speaker 1: in Egypt. More broadly, it's every journalist working with any

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Speaker 1: within any regime that considers using these kind of tactics

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Speaker 1: to silent public debate and critical voices. Defending that cause

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Speaker 1: is not just a heavy responsibility, it's hugely empowering one. Now,

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Speaker 1: I think that is to the point that you're talking about.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly it. That's exactly it. It suddenly becomes external,

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Speaker 2: It suddenly takes on significance and meaning that I hadn't

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Speaker 2: that that would otherwise have made the whole time in

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Speaker 2: prison time wasted. I spend four hundred days locked up.

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Speaker 2: That would have been four hundred day in my life

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Speaker 2: that I'd never get back. But in seeing it in

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Speaker 2: those terms, it meant that I it became a struggle

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Speaker 2: for that high principle. And I remember there's a there's

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Speaker 2: an extraordinary book that I was that I ended up

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Speaker 2: reading in prison once we were alloud, books called Man's

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Speaker 2: Search for Meaning by a guy called Victor Frankel. And

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Speaker 2: Frankel is an incredible character. He was a survivor of

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Speaker 2: the concentration camps in World War Two. He went in

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Speaker 2: as a Jewish neurologist, as a neuroscientist, and so I

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Speaker 2: had a particular interest in the way people's brains worked.

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Speaker 2: And he wrote the book as a way of trying

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Speaker 2: to understand the differences between those who survived and those

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Speaker 2: who didn't. And he said that he quoted nietzschee as saying,

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Speaker 2: he who has a why can bear anyhow. In other words,

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Speaker 2: as long as you have a reason that's externality you

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Speaker 2: for enduring the suffering that you're going through, you can

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Speaker 2: put up with pretty much anything. He was saying. It

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Speaker 2: can't be money, it can't be selfish, he said, God

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Speaker 2: sometimes is that provides that, but more often than not,

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Speaker 2: it's survival for a family. For a lot of the

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Speaker 2: concentration camp inmates, it was survival as a form of

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Speaker 2: resistance to the Nazis, to the genocide that they're experiencing.

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Speaker 2: For me, it became a fight for press freedom. Now

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Speaker 2: I know that sounds a little bit pious, a little

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Speaker 2: bit sort of arrogant, but that's the way I came

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Speaker 2: to see it, and that gave me a sense of

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Speaker 2: purpose and meaning and direction and a kind of vision

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Speaker 2: that helped they think, helped me get it get through.

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Speaker 1: I can understand what you're saying, because it would easily,

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Speaker 1: it would be easy to turn it in on yourself

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Speaker 1: and wallow in the self pity and why has this

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Speaker 1: happened to me? You're thinking, Okay, there's a broader here,

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Speaker 1: and that can be very powerful to motivate you to

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Speaker 1: find the depth that you didn't think you had.

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Speaker 2: Exactly.

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Speaker 1: I just yeah, thinking thinking about it, I think all

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Speaker 1: the way you have to evolve and look deeply into

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Speaker 1: yourself to find find the answers to get through this.

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Speaker 1: But I just want to break down the whole period

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Speaker 1: of time when you're in prison, and I've got a

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Speaker 1: couple of areas I want to cover to get proper

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Speaker 1: legal representation. That was a nightmare in itself. Talk us

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Speaker 1: through that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was so Al Jazeera hired a lawyer and

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Speaker 2: they were there for a while until they rather spectacularly

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Speaker 2: resigned in the middle of the trial.

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Speaker 1: They made it very public statement the way it was done.

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Speaker 2: To extraordinary public statement, and it was very damaging. But

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Speaker 2: to be honest, Gary, I really I was in a

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Speaker 2: lot of stress around that. But I also realized that

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Speaker 2: actually our legal representation was beside the point a first

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Speaker 2: year law student could have defended us, that the evidence

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Speaker 2: against us was so paper thin, was not existent?

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Speaker 1: Really what was it? Specific charges? Could break down of

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Speaker 1: the charges.

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Speaker 2: So we've been accused of aiding and a betting a

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Speaker 2: terrorist organization, being members of a terrorist organization, advocating terrorist ideology,

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Speaker 2: broadcasting false news with intent to undermine national security, financing terrorism.

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Speaker 2: I mean, these were about as serious as you could

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Speaker 2: get short of actually pulling a pin on a grenade

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Speaker 2: in a crowded room, short of a physical terrorist attack.

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Speaker 2: We were basically agents of a terrorist.

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Speaker 1: And the financing terrorism was they found some money that

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Speaker 1: you had that was your living expenses in an area

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Speaker 1: where the cash wasn't going to get you through, and

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Speaker 1: you've got some cash from your employer.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely, I mean the narrative I think that as

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Speaker 2: far as I can tell, I never really got to

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Speaker 2: the bottom of it. But the narrative was that we

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Speaker 2: would occasionally buy footage freelance footage from camera up from

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Speaker 2: guys that were operating that were covering the demonstrations that

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Speaker 2: were either too dangerous for us to get to or

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Speaker 2: that we physically just couldn't didn't have time to cover

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Speaker 2: all of the protests. And the theory was that those

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Speaker 2: guys couldn't have covered particularly Muslim Brotherhood protests unless they

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Speaker 2: are members of the Brotherhood, and so by paying them

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Speaker 2: for the footage, we were somehow financing terrorism.

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Speaker 1: It's creative thinking from law enforcement.

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Speaker 2: It's quite a long bow. But you know, as far

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Speaker 2: as I can tell, that's how that charge came through.

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Speaker 1: And did you get to access to your brief of evidence?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 1: No, because that's a pretty much a cornerstone of the

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Speaker 1: legal system here, that the prosecute that makes the allegations

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Speaker 1: and presents a brief of evidence and then you get

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Speaker 1: to who were so sect.

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Speaker 2: So he's he's one of the things to give you

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Speaker 2: an idea of just how crazy it was to get

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Speaker 2: access to some of the to the images that they

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Speaker 2: had in there in the evidence. We had to pay

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Speaker 2: for it because there was apparently a processing fee, and

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Speaker 2: we said, look, we wanted we wanted to get all

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Speaker 2: of the images that they had, and the figure they

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Speaker 2: came up with was literally in the hundreds of thousands

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Speaker 2: of dollars. They couldn't understand it, like, what the how

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Speaker 2: the hell do you come up with with that kind

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Speaker 2: of number, until we realized that one second of video

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Speaker 2: footage it's like film, it is made up of frames

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Speaker 2: of twenty four frames, and so they were counting each

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Speaker 2: frame as an individual image, and so if you wanted

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Speaker 2: five minutes of footage that they had as supposedly as evidence,

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Speaker 2: we were going to have to pay for literally thousands

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Speaker 2: and thousands of images. Absolutely insane, and of course we

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Speaker 2: coldn't affortunately.

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Speaker 1: I think you've been unfair there, you alos, so there's

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Speaker 1: foto copying costs. I'm with you on certain things, but

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Speaker 1: that's crazy, isn't it. So each each frame of the

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Speaker 1: role of film. Okay, so you didn't get access to

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Speaker 1: your brief The system I think you described as just

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Speaker 1: it wasn't rigid. It was just could swing anyway one

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Speaker 1: of them. It's almost like someone could get up. And

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Speaker 1: I think there was an example of a witness giving

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Speaker 1: evidence that it really just didn't stand up to any

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Speaker 1: the weakest cross examination, but it was just dismissed. Anyway.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember, but you said Peter was here six

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Speaker 1: months ago, when he's we can present evidence that you

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Speaker 1: weren't in the country six months ago, and that's just

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Speaker 1: dismissed with, oh, well, yeah, we all make mistakes, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: move on.

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Speaker 2: That was it. We were we'd been accused of being

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Speaker 2: involved with the Rabber massacre, which had happened six months earlier,

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Speaker 2: and at that time I was in Sudan, in South Sudan,

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Speaker 2: and they had my passport that had all of the

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Speaker 2: entry and exit stamps both in Egypt and also the

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Speaker 2: entry and exit stamps into South Sudan. So it was

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Speaker 2: blinding the obvious, and we were prepared and We're hoping

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Speaker 2: to present evidence of the stories that I'd produced from

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Speaker 2: South Sudan at the time of that massacre.

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Speaker 1: So I'm thinking from a prosecuting point of view, that

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Speaker 1: would take a hole in the brief a little bit

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Speaker 1: iry to.

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Speaker 2: Knock the evidence out of court. But no, they simply

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Speaker 2: said no. He was questioned about why, about the contradiction.

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Speaker 2: He just he kept saying I don't remember.

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Speaker 1: And describe the court saying for us, are you are

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Speaker 1: you in there in the dock?

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Speaker 2: Are you yes? So the docs was actually a cage,

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Speaker 2: a pretty intimidating cage, and it was designed it It

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Speaker 2: was a really big court room. It was more like

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Speaker 2: a theater, sort of raked seating, really really tall, tall,

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Speaker 2: tall ceilings, more like a cathedral. I guess in a

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Speaker 2: way had that sense of presence, and I think it

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Speaker 2: was designed to give them a sense be intimidating, and

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Speaker 2: as I said, because we were in the cage, I

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Speaker 2: think it was designed to make us look like we

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Speaker 2: were dangerous, dangerous terrorists that were a physical threat, even

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Speaker 2: if we should be, you know, have the opportunity to

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Speaker 2: leap across the court room.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, you can't trust these terrorists, so spies,

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Speaker 1: you don't know what's going on. People that support your family, friends,

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Speaker 1: And how important was that when you're going through the

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Speaker 1: whole process, the prison, the battles through the court, How

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Speaker 1: important to you was the support that and were you

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Speaker 1: were aware how much support you've had?

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Speaker 2: So they were their presence of physical presence in the courtroom.

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Speaker 2: My brothers were there throughout the trial. That was really

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Speaker 2: really important to know that they had my back, that

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Speaker 2: we had people outside in Cairo, outside the cell that

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Speaker 2: were working to make sure that they were doing everything

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Speaker 2: they could, whether it was diplomatically or legally or politically.

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Speaker 2: You asked, you mentioned about the broader campaign, and I

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Speaker 2: had a vague idea that there was a lot going on,

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Speaker 2: but honestly, I had no real understanding of the scale

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Speaker 2: of the campaign.

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Speaker 1: You had some very heavy hitters in your corner, not

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Speaker 1: just your corner, the whole whole group of you that

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Speaker 1: got locked up at US. Even Obama was making comments

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Speaker 1: about it. And certainly you had the support from over here,

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Speaker 1: from the Foreign Affairs minister and everyone else.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we did. And again I didn't realize it even

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Speaker 2: just just how how engaged Obama was. I saw him afterwards.

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Speaker 2: I was at an event in Washington, the FIGE, the

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Speaker 2: White House Correspondence and Your Dinner, and I met Obama

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Speaker 2: before the dinner and I introduced myself and he said, ah,

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Speaker 2: he said, you're that guy. He said, yeah, you wrote

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Speaker 2: two letters from prison to describing what you were going

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Speaker 2: through as an attack on press freedom. He said, I

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Speaker 2: saw those letters. I read them. He said, they really

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Speaker 2: helped me and understand he said, from that point, he said,

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Speaker 2: I always raised your case whenever I spoke to President CC.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay, so you had the support and also your colleagues.

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Speaker 1: I think your colleagues unified to make sure your story

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Speaker 1: wasn't forgotten.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, journalists, journalist colleagues around the world. Yeah, and we

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Speaker 2: were very lucky. I mean, it was extraordinary the amount

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Speaker 2: of the amount of support that we had. And that was,

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Speaker 2: you know, partly because I think I and my colleagues family.

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Speaker 2: We'd worked across a large number of big international news organizations.

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Speaker 2: I'd worked for the BBC, of course, and for our

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Speaker 2: GAZEA and you know, I had a lot of colleagues.

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Speaker 2: I'd worked for Reuters, I had a lot of colleagues

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Speaker 2: here in Australia that knew my work. Family had worked

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Speaker 2: for CNN and others, And so there was a large

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Speaker 2: cohort of people around the world who knew us and

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Speaker 2: knew our work and the integrity of our work. But

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Speaker 2: it also recognized, as I did, that our case was

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Speaker 2: about them as well, that they needed to fight this

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Speaker 2: on for their own sake as much as.

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Speaker 1: For ours, and that that support, the external support than

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Speaker 1: from people in powerful positions. Could that filter through to you?

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Speaker 1: Did you understand or have you only appreciate it? You release?

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Speaker 2: I really only appreciate. I mean again, I was aware

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Speaker 2: of it, but not I didn't really fully understand it

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Speaker 2: until I was released and saw just how enormous that

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Speaker 2: campaign was and how many people were invested in.

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Speaker 1: It, the scale of it. Disagreements with your calcus. And

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Speaker 1: when I say disagreements, if you put anyone in the

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Speaker 1: room long enough there's going to be disagreements, but there

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Speaker 1: was a couple of things about the strategy, So the

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Speaker 1: way that you should approached do you want to just

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Speaker 1: break that down and.

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Speaker 2: So as you say, you when you're twenty three hours

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Speaker 2: inside a concrete box with somebody, then you're going to

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Speaker 2: find their edges. And that's how it was. For It

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Speaker 2: was very, very difficult to be stuck in that kind

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Speaker 2: of environment. We didn't know each other beforehand before I

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Speaker 2: arrived in Cairo, so you're still just getting to know

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Speaker 2: each other when you're in that environment. But Famy in

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Speaker 2: particular and I had very very different understandings of what

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Speaker 2: was taking place. Fami saw this as political. He saw

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Speaker 2: what was happening as the result of Egypt's suspicions about

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Speaker 2: Katari interference in Egypt. The Katar had been accused of

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Speaker 2: supporting the Brotherhood. Because we worked for a Katari organization,

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Speaker 2: we were therefore a part of that conspiracy, and Fami

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Speaker 2: felt that if that was the case, then the solution

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Speaker 2: was to distance ourselves from Qatar, from our Jazeera and

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Speaker 2: to align ourselves as with Egypt to make up to

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Speaker 2: portray ourselves as friends of Egypt. Fami felt that that

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Speaker 2: was to play the political game that was inevitably the

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Speaker 2: real reason why we were there. I didn't see that.

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Speaker 2: I saw this as an attack on press freedom. I

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Speaker 2: felt that if there was, if there was genuinely an

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Speaker 2: issue around Katari malfisans, and I was the last person

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Speaker 2: to come after to make that case. There are plenty

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Speaker 2: of other Al Jazeera journalists who had much deeper connections

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Speaker 2: with the Brotherhood. No, none of them sinister, but you

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Speaker 2: could easily, much more easily have made a case that

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Speaker 2: it had nothing really to do with the evidence or

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Speaker 2: to do with Katari interference. Again, if you wanted to

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Speaker 2: make that case, then an Australian journalist had only been

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Speaker 2: in the country for a few weeks was again not

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Speaker 2: the right person to make that case. And so I

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Speaker 2: felt that this was about press freedom. They came after

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Speaker 2: us because we were politically convenient, because they had that narrative.

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Speaker 2: But I felt that we needed to fight this on

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Speaker 2: as an attack on press freedom. And the problem is

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Speaker 2: that those two narratives were irreconcilable. You couldn't run those

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Speaker 2: defenses in parallel. You couldn't start down nine track and

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Speaker 2: you couldn't start down one track, and suddenly change course

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Speaker 2: and so, and the stakes were really really really high,

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Speaker 2: Like if we got this, got this, got this debate wrong,

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Speaker 2: if we got the strategy wrong, then we were going

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Speaker 2: to We're going to suffer for it. Fami, I thought

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Speaker 2: Famy was being really cynical in playing, in playing that

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Speaker 2: political game and dangerous. Family thought I was being hopelessly

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Speaker 2: naive and taking a very Western view of a fundamentally

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Speaker 2: Arabic Middle Eastern crisis. Yeah, it was we we we came.

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Speaker 2: We came almost to blows on a few occasions, very very.

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Speaker 1: Tough after you were convicted, because the sequence of events

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Speaker 1: in the custody time you were in custody, You went

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Speaker 1: to trial, you were convicted of it, and then you

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Speaker 1: had an appeal coming up, or you had to lodge

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Speaker 1: for an appeal, waited a month or so to find

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Speaker 1: out whever that appeal would be allowed. And there was

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Speaker 1: some very heated discussions as I understand, about whether they

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Speaker 1: go on the hunger strike, and that not just one,

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Speaker 1: but many of the people that you were with thought

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Speaker 1: that would be the way to let's force this issue.

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Speaker 1: We're not staying here any longer. Well to talk us

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Speaker 1: through that, because that's a that's a heavy that was.

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Speaker 2: That was another very very difficult period. So I spoke

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Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier Abdolfat, who was this incredible guy I

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Speaker 2: met at Lementorum, one of the earlier the first prison

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Speaker 2: that I was in, and he knew and understood about

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Speaker 2: hunger strikes, and a couple of the points that he

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Speaker 2: made was that if you're going to start a hunger strike,

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Speaker 2: you have to have the moral high ground, you have

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Speaker 2: to have all of the process on your side. You've

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Speaker 2: got to be demanding only things that the authorities have

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Speaker 2: the capacity to give you. You can't simply demand free because

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Speaker 2: they're not going to do that. They're never going to

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Speaker 2: do it. If they acquiesce and they give you your

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Speaker 2: freedom because you went on hunger strike, then every prisoner

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Speaker 2: was going to go.

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Speaker 1: That makes sense. That makes sense.

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Speaker 2: So you've got to be You've got to be demanding

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Speaker 2: things that are achievable and that are your rights to have.

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Speaker 2: The trouble was that the process, the trial and our

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Speaker 2: appeal dragged on for such a long time that a

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Speaker 2: lot of the other guys that were in our case

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Speaker 2: were wanting to go on a hunger strike. They felt

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Speaker 2: that all of our supporters. They said that all of

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Speaker 2: our supporters outside prison are fighting for us. We have

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Speaker 2: to fight inside. We have to be seen to be

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Speaker 2: doing something inside as well. We're demanding our freedom. And

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Speaker 2: I could see why they were frustrated, why they wanted

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Speaker 2: to do it. But I felt, I agreed with the

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Speaker 2: love that the timing was wrong. We were still within

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Speaker 2: the process. We were still within the time frames for

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Speaker 2: that process to play out. It was dragging out forever.

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Speaker 2: And even if we didn't consider that they were being serious,

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Speaker 2: that they were just stringing us along, it was too

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Speaker 2: early to start a hunger strike because we couldn't. They

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Speaker 2: were never going to give us what we were demanding.

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Speaker 2: It was. It was performative, and I didn't I disagreed

377
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Speaker 2: with it. But the trouble was that I also knew

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Speaker 2: that if I joined the hunger strike then it would

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Speaker 2: get huge amounts of potential the white guy, because I

380
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Speaker 2: was the white guy, I was the outsider. If they

381
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Speaker 2: went on the hunger strike without me, it would have

382
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Speaker 2: been a meaningless it would have it would have disappeared

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Speaker 2: into the footnote in the in the local newspapers.

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Speaker 1: It was a hard position to be in for yourself.

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Speaker 1: I agree with your logic and one hundred percent agree

386
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Speaker 1: if you're going on the hunger strike, but they're simple responsible.

387
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Speaker 1: We're waiting to see if the appeal comes up or

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Speaker 1: they're not going to just open the prison doors.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. You're being you're being petulant, you're being premature, you're

390
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Speaker 2: being ridiculous. You've got no rights to demand this.

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Speaker 1: But your the strength that you had was in the unity.

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Speaker 1: And then if the others went on the hunger strike

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Speaker 1: and you didn't, yeah, I would make life very hard

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Speaker 1: for you. And if you spent spent the rest of

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Speaker 1: the time locked up with these people.

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Speaker 2: And that's not to say I was afraid of the

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Speaker 2: hunger struck, and in fact, on the day that I

398
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Speaker 2: was released, I was. I decided that we have to

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Speaker 2: start a hunger strike because the type that moment had

400
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Speaker 2: come that there was an appropriate point in which they

401
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Speaker 2: were screwing. I was convinced I was screwing around it.

402
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Speaker 1: That's when the appeals gone through and the conviction was upheld.

403
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Speaker 2: That's right, Yeah, the conviction being overturned. Retral had been ordered, right, Sorry,

404
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Speaker 2: So to walk you through it that basically we'd been

405
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Speaker 2: a cute we'd been we'd been.

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Speaker 1: Convicted, yep.

407
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Speaker 2: We appealed the conviction. We won the appeal yep. Although

408
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Speaker 2: the Courtifussation agreed to hear the appeal. When they finally

409
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Speaker 2: heard it, they overturned the conviction on a technicality in

410
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Speaker 2: order to retrial. We weren't released. We're still in prison,

411
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Speaker 2: but they'd ordered a retrus starting again the courts exactly

412
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Speaker 2: the whole process again. The courts had thirty days to

413
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Speaker 2: name a new date for the start of the retrial,

414
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Speaker 2: and at day thirty one we've still heard nothing. And

415
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Speaker 2: that was the point at which I thought, right, this

416
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Speaker 2: is the moment we have to start the hunger strike

417
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Speaker 2: because they're screwing around with us. We're now in in

418
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Speaker 2: clear clear air that there's no process left for us.

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Speaker 1: We have got a legitimate cause, We've got a legitimate

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Speaker 1: egible that you could criticize and say, this has been

421
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Speaker 1: done to us.

422
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Speaker 2: This is why we're on strokes exactly, we demand our rights. Right.

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Speaker 2: But up to that point I didn't see that we

424
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Speaker 2: had we had that moral high ground, we had that

425
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Speaker 2: that that right, that opportunity to actually start the hunger strike.

426
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Speaker 1: Well, you were taking it seriously. You even talked about,

427
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Speaker 1: and I didn't realize this. With a hunger strike, you're

428
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Speaker 1: better off preparing yourself before you start the strike, because

429
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Speaker 1: if it's just cut off you straight away, you're going

430
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Speaker 1: to do more damage than if you were Wean yourself

431
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Speaker 1: off food before you start the hunger strike.

432
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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, your body has to. You have to ease

433
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Speaker 2: your body into it. If you simply go cold turkey

434
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Speaker 2: on food because people seem to think that you've got

435
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Speaker 2: a sort of stock of energy, then it helps you.

436
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 2: Helps you run run into the into.

437
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 1: A huge meal and they just stop eating.

438
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 2: Doesn't work well.

439
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 1: It learns your parents came to visit you. That must

440
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 1: have been hard for you. Had your your brother's support

441
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: and the other family members. But when your parents came there,

442
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 1: But how was that for you?

443
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,159
Speaker 2: That was really hard because and it was hard for

444
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 2: everybody really. They were only able to visit once every

445
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 2: two weeks, and even then only for about twenty minutes,

446
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 2: and you've got no time. It's always a stressful experience

447
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 2: and for them, I'm aging Granny and gra GRAMPI. Getting

448
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 2: around Carr to start with is tough, but also going

449
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 2: into prison, going through all of the security checks and

450
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,479
Speaker 2: so on. Is really intimidating to get into tour, and

451
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 2: it's a it's a whole it's a whole day's mission.

452
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 2: They stand around and queues for hours and hours in

453
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 2: the blazing sun. You've got to be moved from from

454
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 2: the outer perimeter to the inner perimeters, and you're going

455
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 2: through countless searches and questions and papers and so on.

456
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,199
Speaker 2: It's a very very intimidating process. And so by the

457
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 2: time you get in, they're stressed. I'm stressed because I'm

458
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 2: worried about them. They see my stress, and so what

459
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 2: you have is this really emotionally intense moment, and that's

460
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 2: the lasting impression that you've got. You've got nothing, no,

461
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 2: nothing to correct it, nothing to say, Look, they're actually

462
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 2: okay for the rest of the two weeks until you

463
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 2: get to see them again.

464
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 1: I'm not nothing to aid here, because I can just

465
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: imagine what you go through with that. That must have

466
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 1: torn you apart inside. Soon your parents go through that.

467
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: So you talk of your release, let's complicate it in itself.

468
00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 1: But you explained that the appeal that's gone past the

469
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 1: thirty days you were okay. I've got no legitimate argument

470
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: not to join this hunger strike now, So that was

471
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: your mindset and what changed and how did it change?

472
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 2: I got no idea, so I decided. I woke up

473
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 2: that morning realized it was day thirty one. I've been

474
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 2: contemplating before. I felt, if we get to this point,

475
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 2: then we're going to have to start a hunger strike.

476
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 2: And my brother was due for a visit that day,

477
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 2: and so they opened up the cell door and I

478
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 2: was going to I was basically running in the corridor

479
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,199
Speaker 2: for exercise, and as I was running, I was just

480
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 2: thinking through the conversation I was going to have to

481
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 2: have with my brother to let him know. When all

482
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 2: of a sudden, one of the guards weighs me down

483
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 2: and says, the boss needs to see you. The warden

484
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 2: needs to see you. I remember thinking, okay, I'm saying

485
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 2: to him, I'm going to have to change, because it

486
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 2: was part of the prison protocol that you don't go

487
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 2: and see the warden in this stinky running clothes. You

488
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 2: get changed into basic prison whites. But you know you've

489
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 2: got a basic show respect. And he said, no, no, no,

490
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 2: go now the boss he's outside in the courtyard. So

491
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 2: I went out and he said to me, he said,

492
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 2: I've got news for you. I said, what. He said,

493
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 2: I'm pack your things. You're you're you're going. I said,

494
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,360
Speaker 2: what do you mean? He said, you're moving. I'm moving prisons.

495
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 2: So I've been in every damn prison in your system already.

496
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 2: And he said, no, no, no, no, no, you're going home.

497
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 2: The embassy is going to be here in half an hour.

498
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 2: Get going, Pack you pack your gear, yellow, get going.

499
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 2: That was it was. It was completely discombobulating and emotionally

500
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 2: really really difficult because I Gary, I think of it

501
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 2: a little bit like Christmas, right, You know, if you're

502
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 2: a kid, you're heading up to Christmas, you think about it,

503
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 2: you get excited by it, you kind of think about it,

504
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,679
Speaker 2: your fantasize, your imagine one's going to be like you

505
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 2: wake up but you can barely sleep the night before,

506
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 2: you wake up at six in the morning and leap

507
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,439
Speaker 2: up and dive into the presence and you have a

508
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: great time. But imagine if all of a sudden you

509
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 2: wake up and there are these things at the end

510
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 2: of your bed and you're.

511
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 1: Just looking around, Look at what the hell's going on?

512
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 2: Are these really for me? Am I going to get

513
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 2: into trouble? If I if I, if I touch these things?

514
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 2: Is this some kind of sick joke? What's what's going

515
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 2: on here? It was a bit like that. It took

516
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 2: me a while, It took me a long time, like

517
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 2: days before I realized that actually, this is this is real,

518
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 2: this is true, This is this, this, this ordeal is over.

519
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: I can imagine when when you were told or when

520
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: you're informed of that they asked you not to tell

521
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: your fellow inmates that you're going, just that I'm going

522
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: to another prison. You made the decision to tell.

523
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 2: I had to tell. I can't.

524
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: As I was reading your book, I'm thinking you're a

525
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: low life if you don't tell them. But I think

526
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: their reaction speaks a lot to the of people that

527
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: you're in there with.

528
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 2: Well, I was. I was really really emotionally torn up

529
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 2: because I felt so guilty, so guilty about leaving them

530
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 2: behind because I was again and you mentioned this earlier,

531
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 2: but I was. I was released because I was the

532
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 2: white guy, because my name was Peter and not Muhammad,

533
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 2: and I carried that, I really did. I didn't feel

534
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 2: it was right for me to be leaving in those

535
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 2: guys still to be stuck and stuck inside but we'd

536
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 2: also we had talked about it about the possibility. We

537
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 2: knew it was always there was always a chance that

538
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 2: would happen. And we realized that any of them guys

539
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 2: left behind, the last thing they would want is for

540
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 2: the person not to leave. You couldn't refuse to leave,

541
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 2: You couldn't sort of leave your fingernails in the doors

542
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 2: in the c in the door of the prison cell.

543
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 2: But nonetheless it was it was still a difficult thing.

544
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 2: But they they, they all were so overjoyed. I was

545
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 2: so overjoyed. But the thing we also agreed in the

546
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: previous discuss was that if someone was released and they

547
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 2: would become the most vocal advocate, that's a spokesman for

548
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 2: those for the rest of us who have been left behind.

549
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 2: And that's that's what I decided.

550
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: To do, because I could imagine, you've been through so

551
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,959
Speaker 1: much together of the highs and lowers and basically survived,

552
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: and then you're walking away in that sense of survivor guilt,

553
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: I suppose to a degree, out of the prison. When

554
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: are you're taken virtually from there straight to the airport,

555
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: straight to the airport, What year, at what date was

556
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: it that you came back to Australia.

557
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 2: So I was released on February first of two thousand

558
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 2: and fifteen, and you're back in Australia I think it was.

559
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 2: It was about three days later, it was about the

560
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 2: fourth I think.

561
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: And explained to me, you're deported, but you were meant

562
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: to continue your sentence over here in Australia. But there

563
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: was a brief of effidence to start with.

564
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, I mean, that's that would have been confusing,

565
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 2: but it was. It was part of the fiction of

566
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 2: the way that my release had been negotiated. The President

567
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 2: CC had passed a decree giving himself the power to

568
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 2: deport any foreign national who was in that prison system

569
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 2: to complete the judicial process in their country of origin.

570
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's the basis of which that's.

571
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 2: The basis on which he kicked me out. Now, of

572
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 2: course that in terms of international law, that's meaningless extradition treaties.

573
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 2: You can only move a prisoner from one country to

574
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 2: another with an extradition treaty, and those are really complicated

575
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 2: legal agreements, international agreements. They take years and years to negotiate.

576
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 2: But in this case, my lawyers apparently drafted a document

577
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 2: that basically said that I was being released to complete

578
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 2: the judicial process as far as the Egyptians were concerned.

579
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 2: It was to complete the trial and then sentence, presumably

580
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 2: in Australia, as far as the Australians were concerned. And

581
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 2: you'd understand this, there was no brief of evidence, There

582
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 2: was no file that as far as the Federal police

583
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 2: were concerned, I was. There was no evidence that I was.

584
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: Enty you in the court system here.

585
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 2: Nothing not even no no, even no reason to pull

586
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 2: me in for an interview, and so there was no

587
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 2: judicial process to complete.

588
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're a free man, but also still a

589
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: convicted men. Yeah.

590
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, because after the retrial, the retrial was announced a

591
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 2: couple of days after I was released, the cold accused,

592
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 2: you have the co accused in Egypt, and when the

593
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 2: trial began, I was named still as a defendant in Absandia.

594
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 2: At the end of that retrial, we were all reconvicted,

595
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 2: given fresh sentences. We maintained I maintained the campaign to

596
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 2: release my colleagues and they were eventually pardoned and released

597
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 2: about three weeks after they got that conviction. But the

598
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 2: pardon didn't extend to me. So I'm still technically convin

599
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 2: to terrorists.

600
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 1: How said the impact on your travels, It's made it tough.

601
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: You'd have to tiptoe treaties with Egypt.

602
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 2: Any country that has an extradition treating and there's one

603
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 2: treaty that covers the whole of the African Union from

604
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 2: Cairo to Cape Town, which made it almost impossible, not

605
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 2: almost made it impossible to do my whole job.

606
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 1: As a common sense would say, it wouldn't be invoked,

607
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: but you would not dare play with it would.

608
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 2: And even if it wouldn't be invoked, I knew that

609
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 2: I'd be in a position of thinking, well, do I

610
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 2: do the story about the missing millions from the President's

611
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 2: office or do I do a story about the elephant translocation. Yeah,

612
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 2: and you know, I'd like to think I'd have the

613
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 2: balls to do the story about the corruption, but that

614
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 2: extradition to Egypt would always be hanging over my head

615
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 2: and I'm not sure that I'd do it. So, yeah,

616
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 2: it was always going to compromise my work.

617
00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 1: And but for yourself, like as a foreign correspondent that, yeah, journalists.

618
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 2: That I need. I have to have that ability to

619
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 2: travel freely, and terrorism conviction just messes with that.

620
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine how difficult would we try to

621
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 1: explain that one way I can explain recording a conversation

622
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: on the telephone when your cower cubes were released? How

623
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: are you informed? And how you this is fun?

624
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, you kind of You've done your research. You know

625
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 2: the story. So I've been invited on and this is

626
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 2: going to sound like a really weird kind of way

627
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 2: into the story, but I promise you it's true. I've

628
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 2: been invited onto the Chass media circus as a as

629
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 2: a as a kind of guest, as a guest to

630
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 2: that thing, and it was a it was a great show.

631
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed it. At the end of the show,

632
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 2: we're all gathered around, they had this sort of pun session,

633
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 2: and it was the show ended, the applause died down,

634
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, one of the producers walks

635
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,399
Speaker 2: up with are still on camera the studio and still there,

636
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 2: and he hands me that a phone and I look

637
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 2: at the phone and it's a tweet, a single tweet

638
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 2: that says that Muhammed Fami has been released, has been

639
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 2: pardoned and released. And I'm standing there in front of

640
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 2: this wondering is this some kind of joke I've got

641
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 2: the audience there, I've got all of the other all

642
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 2: of the other people that were on the show standing

643
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 2: around me looking at this thing. I'm speechless because it's

644
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 2: you know, as a journalist, you don't go with just

645
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,399
Speaker 2: one source, and certainly not some random tweet. I don't

646
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: know if it was true. I didn't know any of

647
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 2: this stuff, and all of a sudden, one of the

648
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 2: other guys sort of filled the void as I'm trying

649
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 2: to think what do I do? What do I say?

650
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 2: And reads out the tweet and I simply have to say, well,

651
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 2: if this is true, and god, I hope it's true,

652
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 2: then this is this is what we've been fighting for

653
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 2: all of this time, and the whole, the whole audience

654
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,879
Speaker 2: just erupts in cheers.

655
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 1: That I'm sure that that put the final or not

656
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: the final piece, because you're going to carry it for forever.

657
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,439
Speaker 1: But that must have made you feel like you've really

658
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: got your freedom when your cacus were out, I would

659
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: imagine it would have been hard everything joy that you're

660
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: taking in life, thinking if they're still.

661
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 2: In that yeah, yeah, And that was that was the

662
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 2: moment that I realized, and it eventually it became clear

663
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 2: that it wasn't just fa me, it was both both

664
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 2: of them had been had been released. It was an

665
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 2: extraordinary moment.

666
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: Were you surprised by the interest when you got back

667
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: to Australia because I think you was Cypress You went

668
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 1: to for a couple of days to decompress.

669
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I went to Cyprus. That was part of the

670
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 2: advice from from some people who knew and understood how

671
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 2: these things go and advise, just to just to collect

672
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 2: my thoughts, just to speak to our Jazira, just to

673
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 2: kind of have a moment on my own. And so

674
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 2: I figured it was about a couple of days, three

675
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 2: days by the time between the moment I've been released

676
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 2: the moment I got back to Australia and I figured, well,

677
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 2: it's old news. They've reported that I'm out. I was

678
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 2: due to fly back. I was arriving back in Brisbane

679
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 2: on a Wednesday morning, I think at two am. I thought,

680
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 2: nobody's going to show up at the airport, and then

681
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 2: maybe a couple of insomniac photographers who might show up

682
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 2: just to try and get a photograph, but that a bit.

683
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 2: Maybe some of the morning TV news programs might send

684
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 2: a crew, but nobody else, and it was just mind blowing.

685
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 2: It was insane. There were hundreds of well wishes, of

686
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:51,760
Speaker 2: camera crews, of photographers, of journalists. It was just nuts,

687
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 2: this huge, huge welcoming party.

688
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 1: And what did you do when you came out of

689
00:37:58,200 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: the gates.

690
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 2: I just remember but punching the air and I saw

691
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 2: some friends in the crowd who hadn't seen for years

692
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 2: and years and years. I went and embraced And you know,

693
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 2: I said then that because at that point my colleagues

694
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 2: were still in prison. And the one thing I said

695
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 2: was that if if it's right for me to be free,

696
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 2: then it's also right for my colleagues to.

697
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: Be amazing, amazing story lessons lessons learnt from it from

698
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 1: yourself before we go going to that media being locked up,

699
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 1: and I saw you had figures at the end of

700
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: the film, the correspondent figures about foreign correspondence journalists locked up.

701
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 1: And I think that it was in excess of four

702
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: hundred and forty seven countries or something like that.

703
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 2: Well forty It was record numbers in prisons in countries

704
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 2: all over the world. That the numbers of journalists have

705
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,320
Speaker 2: been murdered for their work is at record highs. The

706
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 2: numbers of journalists behind bar are also at record highs,

707
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 2: and this has since the CpG, the Committee to Protect

708
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 2: Journalists to be tracking the numbers, and they started in

709
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,240
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety two, I think it was, and so yeah,

710
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 2: it's the highest that it's ever been. And curiously, the

711
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 2: CPJ calculates or assesses the charges that the journalists are facing,

712
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 2: and they reckon that around three quarters of them, two

713
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 2: thirds to three quarters are there on what they loosely

714
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 2: describe as as anti state charges. So that's things like

715
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 2: sedition trees and terrorism threats to national security, which circles

716
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 2: back to what I was saying to you earlier in

717
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 2: the first part of the podcast, where we were talking

718
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 2: about the ways in which governments have used national security

719
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:49,839
Speaker 2: to come after uncomfortable journalism.

720
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 1: And that's a big umbrella to pull over is security

721
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 1: that could cover so many different.

722
00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 2: Things, so many, so many things, and see secrecy provisions exactly.

723
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: Now.

724
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 2: I'm not saying, and again you'd understand this well too,

725
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that it's there aren't times that journalists

726
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 2: violate national security and really place national security at risk.

727
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that journals should have the right to

728
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 2: publish whatever they want. But governments have been using security

729
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 2: legislation to silence uncomfortable journalism, to accuse journalists of being

730
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 2: involved in acts of terrorism or treason or espionage, and

731
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 2: using that national security rhetoric as a way of shutting

732
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 2: down journalism. And I think that is a really dangerous

733
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,280
Speaker 2: trend that we've really seen takeoffs since nine to eleven.

734
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: And how we can how can we prevent that law?

735
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 1: What can be done?

736
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 2: Well, A part of it is being aware of it

737
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 2: and pushing governments to push back. In Australia we have

738
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 2: we've got those problems as well.

739
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, talk through that because again the war on terror

740
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 1: and metadata that people can get access to, and my

741
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: take on it is that they can attack the journalist's

742
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: source with the metadata, find out who if you broke

743
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 1: a story and I'm in the police or security and

744
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 1: we want to find out who you've been speaking to,

745
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 1: where the leak came from, the metadata would track it

746
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 1: back for us.

747
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 2: And maybe I should explain what metadata is metadata. George Brandish,

748
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 2: when he was introducing the Data Attention legislation, famously just

749
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 2: and rather cavalierly described it as the outside of the envelope.

750
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 2: In other words, it's not the contents of communication, but

751
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 2: it's all of the details around it. It's who you

752
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,800
Speaker 2: emailed or texted or called when you sent those emails,

753
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 2: where you were at the time, all of that kind

754
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 2: of data. The websites that you're browsing history, and even

755
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 2: though they don't know, the authorities don't know, can't investigate

756
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 2: the contents. It's very easy to cross reference. As you said,

757
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 2: if there is a leak from the government, you don't

758
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 2: have to dig too far to find who has been

759
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 2: the Jones break down.

760
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 1: If you're reporting on a police story and I'm still

761
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 1: in the police and they want to know where the

762
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: sources and they look at your phone records and you've

763
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,240
Speaker 1: been on the phone to me or texting me, so yeah.

764
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Or if you if you make a phone

765
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 2: call to a medical clinic, to a doctor, you have

766
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 2: a Google search for sexually transmitted diseases, and then you've

767
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 2: got a visit to a chemist. It's pretty clear what's

768
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:32,959
Speaker 2: going on. You know, you don't have to be.

769
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 1: You don't have to bring that example up.

770
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:42,439
Speaker 2: And yeah, it's very easy to cross reference those bits

771
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 2: ab and so again we're saying not that the journalist

772
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 2: relationship to sources is really crucial to allowing journalists to

773
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 2: do their jobs in holding governments and officials to account.

774
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 2: I think best known example, and perhaps the most egregious

775
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 2: example in Australia is the case of David McBride. The

776
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:13,280
Speaker 2: Australian Federal Police raided the officers of the ABC looking

777
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,240
Speaker 2: for evidence of the sources to the story that became

778
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 2: known as the Afghan Files. This was evidence that the

779
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 2: ABC published of war crimes by Australian special forces in Afghanistan,

780
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:29,399
Speaker 2: murders of civilians. If the ABC is publishing allegations of

781
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 2: that our soldiers have committed war crimes are murdered civilians

782
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 2: in our name, that is crucially in the public interest. Right.

783
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 2: What we saw was the Federal Police going after the

784
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 2: source of that of that story. Now, I think there's

785
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 2: something fundamentally messed up in that world where yes, the

786
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 2: ABC did rely on classified information and that's a crime

787
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 2: revealing classified information, but there is equally there is a

788
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 2: public and so there's a public interest in prosecuting that leak.

789
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 2: But there is equally a public interest in the story

790
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 2: that the ABC published. And the ABC was never going

791
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 2: to be able to get that story without without that

792
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 2: that classified information. And so I'd say, you've got to

793
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,280
Speaker 2: create a mechanism to weigh up these competing public interests.

794
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 2: And sometimes the public interest in publishing information is going

795
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 2: to outweigh the public interest in prosecuting Aleika.

796
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:32,760
Speaker 1: And quite often on that aspect of publishing, we're talking

797
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 1: public servants to say it to serve the public. I'm

798
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 1: a big believer in that. I can only talk on

799
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 1: my area that I understand in policing, like some of

800
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,399
Speaker 1: the things that were shut down because I didn't see

801
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 1: this as public interest. It was going to be critical

802
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 1: of the police and shut down. And the three pillars

803
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 1: of journalism about the truth, accountability, and objectivity is that

804
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: the I saw in policing Crewer. So I'm talking at

805
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:04,359
Speaker 1: this level, not national security, in policing, and I've seen

806
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 1: it now working in journalism. There's some journalists that carry

807
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 1: favor of the police and get stories given to them

808
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: because they don't criticize the police. And I don't like that.

809
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, transparency is important.

810
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 2: And you'd understand as a cop too, it's really hard

811
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 2: when you've got journalists set on your back but it's

812
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 2: also really important in keeping the system honest.

813
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:31,919
Speaker 1: Well, I think we're seeing with podcasts and different things,

814
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: a reference like Teacher's Pet, where the police weren't going

815
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 1: to talk about talk about that case, but when the

816
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 1: public started talking about Headley Thomas started broadcasting about it, Okay,

817
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: people start to become accountable and things get done. I

818
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 1: do see the importance of it. And you're talking at

819
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: such as scale countries go the war because of misinformation.

820
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 1: Reference back to what you were saying in earlier on

821
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 1: you had a sense of responsibility in Afghanistan because there's

822
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 1: only a few of you reporting what was happening.

823
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 2: So yeah, and this is why I believe in the

824
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 2: work that the journalists do and why I believe that

825
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,320
Speaker 2: it should be protected. Now, I recognize and you mentioned

826
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 2: journalists that curry favor with the cops to keep those

827
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:19,240
Speaker 2: lines of communication open. I recognize that not all journalists

828
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 2: work with integrity. I completely understand that, and the industry

829
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 2: has a lot of work to do to recover public trust.

830
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 2: But fundamentally we need it to keep our system on us,

831
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 2: to keep the system of accountability going, to keep vigorous,

832
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 2: well informed public debates happening. Imagine a world where we

833
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 2: don't have good journalism, where we depend on our understanding

834
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 2: of the government, of what takes place in government, on

835
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 2: the tweets and social media posts of our politicians and

836
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:51,879
Speaker 2: public servants. That that that's not a world in which

837
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 2: I feel I had a great deal of confidence you know,

838
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 2: I'm with you, and so fundamentally we need to protect it.

839
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 2: Australia doesn't have any constitutional protection for press freedom.

840
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 1: I picked that up in preparing for this that Australia

841
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 1: is almost unique in that situation that we don't have that.

842
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 1: What are you suggesting that would be something?

843
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 2: I'm suggesting a Media Freedom Act. We're not going to

844
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 2: get constitutional reform. We're not going to get press freedom

845
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 2: written into the constitution. It's very so difficult in Australia.

846
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 2: But an Act of Parliament can do that job. Doesn't

847
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 2: have to be massively complicated. The Human Rights Acts in Queensland,

848
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 2: the Act and Victoria say three very simple things. They

849
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 2: say Parliament has to always consider human rights when they're

850
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 2: passing new legislation. In other words, they've got to always

851
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:44,400
Speaker 2: factor it in as much as possible. Protected that the

852
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 2: courts have to interpret existing legislation in ways that are

853
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:51,839
Speaker 2: consistent with human rights. Even if there's no explicit thing

854
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 2: that says that the cops can't beat up a ten

855
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:55,799
Speaker 2: year old, you still can't beat up a ten year

856
00:47:55,840 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 2: old to break it all then, and thirdly, the public

857
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 2: servants have to act in ways that support human rights. Now,

858
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:05,760
Speaker 2: I think if you simply replace the words human rights

859
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 2: with media freedom, then you're in the ball park of

860
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 2: where we need to be. That you have to the

861
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 2: Parliament and the courts have an obligation to consider the

862
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 2: importance of media freedom when they're dealing with that, when

863
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 2: they're either creating legislation or interpreting and implying it. That's

864
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 2: the key. Doesn't always have to privilege everything else. But

865
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 2: you've got to have an opportunity to recognize that public

866
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 2: interest in the work that journalists do and weigh that

867
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 2: against the more established public interest in prosecutions.

868
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 1: And now I'm with you one hundred percent on that.

869
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 1: And I always said when the doors are closed to

870
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: the court and the media are excluded, there's usually no

871
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 1: good that's going on in there. Times need to be

872
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 1: have the media excuse and matters can't be reported on

873
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 1: a non publication, but invariably public would be outraged and

874
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 1: shocked if they knew what was going on when those

875
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: doors are closed. Yeah, there's a lot, a lot to

876
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 1: be done. Well, I'm glad you've had your rest for

877
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 1: four hundred days in your prison, sitting there meditating and

878
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 1: playing bang gabon and everything else that you're doing. What

879
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 1: are you doing with yourself now?

880
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 2: So I'm an academic and the media freedom a I'm

881
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 2: a professor of journalism at mcquarie University, and I also

882
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 2: run a not for profit organization, an advocacy group called

883
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 2: the Alliance for Journalists Freedom. And in fact, that idea

884
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 2: of a Media Freedom Act is something that's right at

885
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 2: the very top of our agenda.

886
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:33,760
Speaker 1: Where would people find find that.

887
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 2: Our website Journalists Journalists Freedom don't come. They've We've dripped,

888
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 2: We've drafted the act. We're also setting up a professional

889
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 2: association for journalism. We think that if we're going to

890
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:51,399
Speaker 2: give journalists rights in law, then we also they also

891
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:55,280
Speaker 2: need to take on responsibilities through a more rigorous system

892
00:49:55,320 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 2: for self regulation. And we think that helps everybody. It

893
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,400
Speaker 2: makes journalism more trustworthy. It means people have more confidence

894
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 2: in journalism. They can identify good journalism, journalism that's produced

895
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 2: in line with a code of conduct, a set of

896
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 2: ethics and standards. But we also think it's important to

897
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 2: have that enshrined in law to make sure that the

898
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 2: kind of erosion that we're seeing taking place is stopped.

899
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 1: Well, I'm sure your students are getting a lot of

900
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 1: inspiration from having you speak to them. Are you enjoying

901
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 1: training future?

902
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 2: J I miss I miss my old life terribly, right,

903
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 2: I miss being a foreign correspondent. That identity was really

904
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 2: deeply embedded in my own DNA. But this is a

905
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 2: pretty good plan.

906
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 1: Be Yeah, I'm happy for you that you've found that

907
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 1: you've said that you've missed your former occupation as a

908
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: foreign correspondent. Do you have regrets that you ever took

909
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: up that offer for the three weeks?

910
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 2: No time, No, no regrets at all. I mean I could.

911
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 2: To have to have a regret implies that I might

912
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 2: have made a different decision under the same circumstances. And

913
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 2: I would never have done that, you know I would.

914
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 2: I would never have gone. I wouldn't wish prison on

915
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 2: my worst enemy. But at the same time, to say

916
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 2: I have regrets would suggest I did something wrong. And

917
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:20,320
Speaker 2: I didn't.

918
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: And so no, okay, I'm not going to let you

919
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 1: go until we talk about your your movie and Richard

920
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:29,760
Speaker 1: Roxburgh playing playing you? Was he your first choice?

921
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:33,319
Speaker 2: And how do you two get I don't tell Rocks,

922
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 2: but my first choice was was Chris Hamsworth. But okay,

923
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 2: hysterical laughter wasn't the response.

924
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:44,279
Speaker 1: I can see where you're coming.

925
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 2: You can't see you can't see it, Hamsworth sitting here.

926
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 1: The likeness is when you got out of prison, but

927
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 1: clearly workouts that you were doing.

928
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 2: But no, I didn't look as I think you might

929
00:51:55,640 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 2: have mentioned earlier. I couldn't. I couldn't really get Cleaver Green,

930
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 2: the character from Rake, out of my head when I

931
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 2: knew that Richard Richard was being considered for the role.

932
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 2: But he is an extraordinary character actor. He's one of

933
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 2: Australia's finest. And the more I got to know him

934
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,720
Speaker 2: and see his performance, the more I realized that, actually

935
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 2: I think he had it nailed. As he said, he

936
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 2: wasn't trying to do his version of Peter Grestor, he

937
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 2: wasn't trying to impersonate me. And when he said that,

938
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 2: I remember thinking that feeling a huge weight off my

939
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 2: shoulders because it meant I didn't have to see some

940
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 2: weird quirk of myself was being portrayed accurately on screen,

941
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,400
Speaker 2: but it was more of a feel alike rather than

942
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:51,320
Speaker 2: a look alike. And I think he got that feeling

943
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 2: really nailed.

944
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:57,280
Speaker 1: Ye, well, it would have been an interesting, interesting experience

945
00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 1: for you.

946
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 2: It was. It was fascinating, but it was also again,

947
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 2: just to quote kriv Standards the director who said, look

948
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 2: that they weren't trying to I struggled a lot with

949
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 2: the idea of seeing myself on screen on the big

950
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 2: screen until I realized that it's not me up there.

951
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 2: It's this guy that has my name that's going through

952
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 2: that story. But it's an artistic interpretation of my story,

953
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 2: and it's been through countless hand layers of artistry. The scriptwriter,

954
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:30,240
Speaker 2: the director, the actors, the crew, the set designers, the editors.

955
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 2: All of those guys have had their own artistic interpretation.

956
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,799
Speaker 2: So what you see on screen is is that there's

957
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 2: a result of nomination of that work. As Crip said,

958
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 2: it's not a photograph, it's a painting, and so I

959
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 2: think it's a pretty it's a pretty damn good painting.

960
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 1: Okay, But it's another good way of getting the message out,

961
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 1: another medium forgetting getting If.

962
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:54,520
Speaker 2: It makes people think and talk about the first and

963
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 2: foremost I think I hope you agree it's a damn

964
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 2: good drama very much, but I think it also has

965
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:03,760
Speaker 2: that it provokes conversations around the importance of media freedom

966
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 2: and what's been happening to journalists.

967
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think it's time to time to wrap up.

968
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 1: I've enjoyed this chat obviously, and just keep up the

969
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 1: good work. I think it's amazing the career that you've had.

970
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 1: I'm a bit jealous, like if someone said to me,

971
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 1: what would I would like to be in all honesty,

972
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 1: and I think I was obsessed with George Nigas when

973
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:26,800
Speaker 1: he was a foreign correspondent. I wanted to be on

974
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 1: a jeep with a scarf round and traveling through a

975
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:33,439
Speaker 1: war zone a foreign correspondent. But what a fascinating career

976
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 1: you've had and experiences you had in the way that

977
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 1: you've come out of it. Also, full credit to you,

978
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 1: and I've enjoyed having you on I Catch Killers and

979
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 1: that exclusive group that you've got. Now not only you

980
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: all working at Macquarie University, you've been locked up overseas.

981
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 1: You've also also appeared on My Catch Killers, and.

982
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 2: This is probably the defining moment for all of us.

983
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 2: Then the herd could die him in