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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm sure Ailma,

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Speaker 1: my guest today, is one of the most prominent business

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Speaker 1: leaders in Australia over recent decades. Nicholas Moore spent more

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Speaker 1: than thirty years at Macquarie Group, including a decade as CEO.

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Speaker 1: In twenty twenty two, he was asked by the Prime

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Speaker 1: Minister to become Australia's Special Envoy for Southeast Asia. The

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Speaker 1: purpose of the role is to lead the development of

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Speaker 1: a national strategy for greater trade and investment between Australia

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Speaker 1: and Southeast Asian nations. It's an enormous opportunity for Australian

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Speaker 1: business and one that we need to move quickly on

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Speaker 1: before we miss out. Nicholas Moreo, Welcome to Fear and Greed.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Sean, thank you very much for having me.

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Speaker 1: I've spoken about the fact that Australia's foreign direct investment

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Speaker 1: is higher into New Zealand than it is into Southeast

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Speaker 1: Asian nations. I'm not quite sure whether that's still the case,

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Speaker 1: but I'm sure the trend is still the same. Why

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Speaker 1: is that? Why do we go to New Zealand not

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Speaker 1: these incredibly populous countries above us.

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Speaker 2: I think that's a good question, But I think the

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Speaker 2: bigger question, Sean is when you look at both of them.

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Speaker 2: I think Southeast Asia is three percent, New Zealand's four percent. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: it's a very small percentage of our overall foreign direct investment.

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Speaker 2: In our foreign investment overall, which is growing now, most

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Speaker 2: of that is going to the major market and has historically,

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Speaker 2: so it's going to the United States of course, biggest

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Speaker 2: market in the world. It's going to Europe, it's going

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Speaker 2: to North Asia, Japan, Korea, and China. So I think

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Speaker 2: it's just a question of scale that obviously the bigger

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Speaker 2: capital markets will attract the most money. So we use

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Speaker 2: it as an interesting juxtaposition New Zealand being of course small,

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Speaker 2: Southeast Asian being very large. But the way we'd like

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Speaker 2: to think about Southeast Asia is not as a comparative

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Speaker 2: to New Zealand, of course, but to those bigger markets,

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Speaker 2: because we know Southeast Asia is our second largest trading

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Speaker 2: partner from a global growth viewpoint, seems to be growing

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Speaker 2: either the fastest in the world or the second fastest

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Speaker 2: after India, depending which set of numbers you assume. So

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Speaker 2: what we'd like to be having people think about South

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Speaker 2: theaset as is, comparing it to the investment opportunities in India,

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Speaker 2: in Europe and in North America, and to be thinking

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Speaker 2: that it is going to be a very substantial part

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Speaker 2: of the world in the future. It is today, but

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Speaker 2: it will continue to be.

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Speaker 1: So why haven't we done it yet? Is it the

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Speaker 1: capital markets issue? The fact that whether you're raising money there,

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Speaker 1: whether the rule of law there is different, culturally is different.

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Speaker 1: Why is it though, given how close it is to us,

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Speaker 1: we haven't gone there before?

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Speaker 2: Now? I mean, you know the seawan that Australian businesses

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Speaker 2: tend to be domestically focused. Australia has been a very

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Speaker 2: strong economy. We've had good economic growth, we've had good

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Speaker 2: demographics supporting the growth here. So there's been a lot

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Speaker 2: of opportunities on shore. And when people go offshore, obviously

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Speaker 2: successful companies will look to go offshore. The natural place

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Speaker 2: to go again is the bigger market. So you are

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Speaker 2: going to look at the US markets for many times

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Speaker 2: larger than Australia, or you look at the UK, or

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Speaker 2: you look at Europe, they're just bigger markets. So historically

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Speaker 2: Southeast Asia has been a lot smaller and obviously we're

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Speaker 2: talking about at least ten different countries, depending how you

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Speaker 2: define them, in the region, but ten different countries, each

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Speaker 2: one of them of course small compared to the scale

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Speaker 2: of the United States or the scale of the uk

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Speaker 2: is historically. But of course as time goes on, we're

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Speaker 2: seeing the growth in absolute size of these markets becoming

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Speaker 2: bigger and bigger, and the growth rates of these countries obviously,

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Speaker 2: as I mentioned before, becoming very attractive indeed, So I

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Speaker 2: think it's a question of as time goes on, these

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Speaker 2: markets will become more attractive, and we've seen that in

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Speaker 2: terms of the rest of the world investing in the region.

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Speaker 2: So if we go back in terms of the chants

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Speaker 2: that we put in the pack, you can see Australian

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Speaker 2: investment in the region was about three and a half percent,

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Speaker 2: it went up to about seven and now it's come

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Speaker 2: down recently to about three and a half three point two.

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Speaker 2: The rest of the world was at a similar level

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Speaker 2: to us, and it's actually now at seven percent, So

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Speaker 2: I think that's a good measure. The rest of the

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Speaker 2: world is putting seven percent of their foreign direct investment

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Speaker 2: in the region and we're putting half of that. So

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Speaker 2: I think it's a good measure in terms of the

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Speaker 2: relative opportunities there. It's a good look looking to see

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Speaker 2: what the rest of the world, the United States, the Europeans,

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Speaker 2: the Canadians, what are they investing there? And we're certainly

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Speaker 2: under investing and so that's a clear fact. And the

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Speaker 2: question is why is that the case given it's on

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Speaker 2: our doorstep. Now. I think the international companies have scale benefit.

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Speaker 2: A lot of the companies were investing there are bigger

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Speaker 2: than our companies, particularly in the sectors that are seeing

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Speaker 2: a lot of investment, including things like manufacturing in the region.

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Speaker 2: So we're seeing a lot of growth from around the world,

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Speaker 2: particularly with the China plus one story of people seeking

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Speaker 2: to hedge their bets. They're not putting all their money

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Speaker 2: in China. They're actually building capacity in the region as well,

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Speaker 2: and that includes Chinese companies. A lot of the investors

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Speaker 2: in the region, of course, are Chinese companies. So I

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Speaker 2: think it comes down to the nature of our businesses.

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Speaker 2: The size of our business is relative to the rest

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Speaker 2: of the world. But there's no doubt it hasn't been

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Speaker 2: on people's agenda. When I was at Macquarie and the

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Speaker 2: other companies have been involved in. We naturally look to

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Speaker 2: the bigger markets rather than looking to Southeast Asia. Mcquarie

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Speaker 2: was active across the region and still is, but it

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Speaker 2: wasn't the first place that you would look at. Now

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Speaker 2: I think the opportunities there just are so compelling. Today

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Speaker 2: we are seeing more and more interests from Australian companies

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Speaker 2: actually still being up to invest in the region.

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Speaker 1: We'll get to that at the moment. Stay with me, Nicholas.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute. I'm speaking to Nicholas More,

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Speaker 1: Australia Special Envoy for South East Asia. So where are

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Speaker 1: those opportunities that you're talking about for Australian companies.

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Speaker 2: Well, we can see companies are active already across the region.

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Speaker 2: So when we look at typical companies, you'd expect to

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Speaker 2: be active in agricultural related companies. So we have you know,

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Speaker 2: we should say it as well, just been talking about investment.

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Speaker 2: In terms of the destination for our exports and our imports.

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Speaker 2: The region is our second largest trading partner today, second

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Speaker 2: only to China, so it is a substantial trading partner

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Speaker 2: and so we're seeing a lot of Australian companies involved

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Speaker 2: in that trade who've got operations in the region, so

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Speaker 2: obviously agricultural exports. They're active in the region, continuing to

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Speaker 2: be active in the region, looking at further processing both

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Speaker 2: in Australia and in the region. In terms of commodities,

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Speaker 2: mineral commodities are power, coal, gas and of course increasingly renewables.

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Speaker 2: We're seeing increasing levels of activity, particularly in the renewable space.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people in the region. Interestingly, a lot

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Speaker 2: of the regional players have invested in Australian renewable projects.

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Speaker 2: So companies are Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines whore invested

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Speaker 2: in Australia and Thailand have invested in Australian renewable projects.

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Speaker 2: One because they look like a good investment, but secondly

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Speaker 2: to get the expertise because their renewable challenge is obviously

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Speaker 2: their economy is bigger, so I was going to say

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Speaker 2: equal greater, but greater than ours. So it's a great opportunity.

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Speaker 2: So they're looking at what they can learn from arts

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Speaker 2: and simply our developers, our developers, including my former shop

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Speaker 2: of Macquarie, are looking at neewable investments across the region.

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Speaker 2: Other areas of interest where Australia has been strong include

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Speaker 2: projects and construction lightens historically. Of course the old Latens

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Speaker 2: was very active across the region, but Australian infrastructure investors

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Speaker 2: are actually looking across the region because the model many

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Speaker 2: of us have looking at what's happening in the region

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Speaker 2: is it's very similar to what we saw in North Asia.

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Speaker 2: So if you think of the Second Wall after the

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Speaker 2: Second World War in the fifties, we saw the industrialization

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Speaker 2: of Japan, then we saw Korea, then we saw Taiwan,

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Speaker 2: and then of course most recently we've seen China. So

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Speaker 2: the model there of that export lead growth, that focus

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Speaker 2: on infrastructure development domestically manufacturing, domestically, building up skills through education.

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Speaker 2: All that sort of element we're seen playing out near

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Speaker 2: in South Asia. So again from an Australian viewpoint, obviously

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Speaker 2: it's selling into that manufacturing base, selling into that development

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Speaker 2: of the infrastructure base, which means investment, but also means

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Speaker 2: things like engineers. So our engineers and service providers, our

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Speaker 2: lawyers have been active in terms of that project management

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Speaker 2: and of course education. So education is our largest non

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Speaker 2: commodity export to the region, our largest services export. I

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Speaker 2: think we have over two hundred different educational institutions active

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Speaker 2: in the region and increasingly on the ground. So the

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Speaker 2: number one university in Malaysia, certainly, we would say is

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Speaker 2: Monash University. So Monash University is a number one university

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Speaker 2: we would claim in Malaysia. In Vietnam, r MIT is

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Speaker 2: the number one university in Vietnam and there's two campuses there.

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Speaker 2: When I took on this role, one of the other

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Speaker 2: countri's ambassadors came to me and the first question he

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Speaker 2: asked is why can't we have an r MIT in

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Speaker 2: my country. Now r MIT has other campuses now developing

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Speaker 2: across the region. So the countries are very focused. Again

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Speaker 2: you know, I referred to them in the North Asian

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Speaker 2: model of actually building up the skills of the individuals.

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Speaker 2: They're very focused on building the capabilities within their people

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Speaker 2: that they can actually embrace this growth opportunity in our universities,

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Speaker 2: and not just our universities, but our other vocationally focused institutions.

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Speaker 2: It's their grade opportunity building campuses there. They obviously have

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Speaker 2: a lot of students from Southeast Asia here in Australia

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Speaker 2: at the moment being educated and a very large alumni.

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Speaker 2: We think over two hundred and fifty thousand leading business

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Speaker 2: figures in the region have been to Australian universities. And

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Speaker 2: of course we have the added benefit of over a

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Speaker 2: million people from the region living in Australia, so we

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Speaker 2: have that very strong personal to person connection. So from

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Speaker 2: a services viewpoint, you know, we are a strong services many.

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Speaker 2: Education is very important number one export, number one in

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Speaker 2: terms of where development's happening. But as I mentioned before,

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Speaker 2: if you go down through things like financial services, if

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Speaker 2: you're with things like lawyers, if you look at things

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Speaker 2: like accountants, you know, even the Society of Accountants are

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Speaker 2: very active in the region. So across all these different

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Speaker 2: areas that our economy is strong and we see opportunities

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Speaker 2: in the region. So in our report we highlighted ten

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Speaker 2: different sectors which we think had great potential. Which are

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Speaker 2: you know worth reflecting on all of them, but we

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Speaker 2: probably don't have the time. The only one that I

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Speaker 2: haven't mentioned on the way through with the governments taken

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Speaker 2: quite a bit of action is the digital side of

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Speaker 2: our economy. Obviously, the world we're living in is rapidly

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Speaker 2: a digital world, as we were talking about earlier, Shure

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Speaker 2: and we have established landing a landing pad for austraand

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Speaker 2: and digital businesses already in Indonesia, and as part of

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Speaker 2: the government's action coming out of the report, we've now

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Speaker 2: opened that in ho Chi Min City as well, and

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Speaker 2: so actually having digital companies looking not just at the

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Speaker 2: big markets in the United States and Europe, but very

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Speaker 2: much looking at what's happening in our region now. As

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Speaker 2: I said, there's ten different sectors renewable. We can go

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Speaker 2: through them all, but all of them are are very

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Speaker 2: very interesting.

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Speaker 1: Indeed, we are out of time but very quickly. The

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Speaker 1: impact of Donald Trump and his potential policies, Does it

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Speaker 1: make much of a difference at this point.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think we're dealing with a very very big,

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Speaker 2: long term trend here in terms of where the region

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Speaker 2: is at. As I said, putting it into historical context,

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Speaker 2: we know the North Asian very story very well. Australia's

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Speaker 2: prosperity has been built very much on what's happening in

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Speaker 2: North Asia. Now we're seeing it happen really in our

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Speaker 2: neighborhood and Australia is very keen to be part of it.

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Speaker 2: We know it's going to be a great success. We

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Speaker 2: will benefit from it in Australia will benefit from what's

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Speaker 2: happening in the region. It's a question of how much

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Speaker 2: more we can benefit from it than we did with Aphasia.

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Speaker 2: Now all the scientire we can benefit a lot more.

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Speaker 2: If you think about where Japan was in nineteen fifty,

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Speaker 2: you know we don't have the diaspora, the Japanese diapa

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Speaker 2: in Australia. We don't have the Australian universities that we

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Speaker 2: have operating across the region. We don't have the alumni,

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Speaker 2: we don't have the people, the people links. They're not

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Speaker 2: our second largest trading partner. So all of those different

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Speaker 2: elements suggest that we will we will have a great

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Speaker 2: future in the region. What we're all about is making

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Speaker 2: sure that that future can be as big and exciting

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Speaker 2: as the potential is laid out before us.

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Speaker 1: Nick, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Sean.

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Speaker 1: That was Nicholas More, Australia Special Envoy for Southeast Asia.

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Speaker 1: This is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. Join us

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Speaker 1: every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed.

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Speaker 1: Daily business news for people who make their own decisions.

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Speaker 1: I'm Sean Elmer. Enjoy today