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Speaker 1: It is very hard to disagree. You'll hear this when

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Speaker 1: you hear people talking about decisions. Paul, can you agree

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Speaker 1: to this? Paul? Can I get your agreement on this?

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Speaker 1: What needs to be true to get the room to agree.

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Speaker 1: We don't need agreement. The better we disagree, the faster

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Speaker 1: we decide.

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Speaker 2: Hey, everyone, before we get into this week's podcast, we

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Speaker 2: got a pretty cool announcement to make you are not

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Speaker 2: able to connect with us. We have a pretty cool

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Speaker 2: little widget that's on the website. Just go to poletailor

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Speaker 2: dot biz Forwards Life Podcast and near the top of

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Speaker 2: the page you'll see a little icon that says send

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Speaker 2: a message to the poll Tailor podcast. And so what

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Speaker 2: we can do with that You just click on that

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Speaker 2: and then you send us an audio message and we

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Speaker 2: will get the audio message. Now, the first thing I

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Speaker 2: want to do with using it is actually do and

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Speaker 2: ask me anything episode. So all you gotta do if

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Speaker 2: you got a question that we want me to cover

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Speaker 2: is just go to Paul Taylor dot b is z

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Speaker 2: Forward Slash podcast and on start the recording, and then

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Speaker 2: send us a message about what you would like me

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Speaker 2: to talk about, and they ask me anything and leave

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Speaker 2: your name. We will call it out on the show.

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Speaker 2: I'll get that all put together. And the other thing

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Speaker 2: you can do is just leave us a message about

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Speaker 2: what you like about the podcast, what you don't like

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Speaker 2: about the podcast. I talk to a bouch all of

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Speaker 2: that sort of stuff, and just give us some feedback

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Speaker 2: and we will use that to continuously improve. So looking

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Speaker 2: forward to hearing from you now I hover the podcast.

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Speaker 3: It's a silver Welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: It's great to be here. Thanks for having me excited

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Speaker 1: the chat all the.

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Speaker 2: Way from Toronto. What's the weather like over in Toronto?

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Speaker 3: Now you've just at the tail end of spring.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing. Actually it's usually called here around now, but

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Speaker 1: today was twenty four degrees, nice breeze. Its beautiful.

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Speaker 3: So Canadians talk canadianstock centigrade.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we could do fair night if you want,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, my brain works in celsius.

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Speaker 2: Ah. I didn't realize that that Canadians were celsius slice centigrade.

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Speaker 1: I know, it's weird though, So we're metric everywhere, but

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Speaker 1: human weights and heights, Like I could tell you my

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Speaker 1: height in feet in inches, yes, but I have to

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Speaker 1: start to calculate it in centimeters. I don't know why,

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Speaker 1: but if you ask me how far away something is,

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Speaker 1: I'll answer in meters.

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Speaker 3: That's very like the UK. That's right, so and and

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Speaker 3: and it's weird.

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Speaker 2: And it's interesting living in northern Ireland, right because everything

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Speaker 2: is in miles in the north, and then you drive

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Speaker 2: over the border into the size that Republic of Ireland

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Speaker 2: and everything's in kilometers. But you know, I've grown up

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Speaker 2: in feet and inches talking about height, but also in miles.

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Speaker 2: But interesting, having lived in nausea for twenty years, I'm

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Speaker 2: not fully metric. Apart from the height thing. I always

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Speaker 2: still have to.

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Speaker 1: Trans feed anytime I get an official form. It's like

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Speaker 1: how many centimeters are you? I'm like, oh good, God.

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Speaker 3: Like here he does.

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Speaker 2: So to tell us a little bit, this one is

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Speaker 2: a little bit different. This podcast. We're really going to

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Speaker 2: talk about work and life and kind of getting what

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Speaker 2: you want with what you have, which is I really

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Speaker 2: like and I love the type of your book, The

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Speaker 2: Grass is Greener, So tell us a little bit about

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Speaker 2: your background professional background, because it's it's quite interesting and

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Speaker 2: I think audience members will get why I'm talking to

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Speaker 2: you once you've talked through that.

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Speaker 3: Cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, happy to I mean, it's one of these things

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Speaker 1: where like every time I explain it, looking back, it

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Speaker 1: feels like I have this well whole idea, like a

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Speaker 1: good idea in my head of this is the path.

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Speaker 1: And at the time it was still is kind of

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Speaker 1: a bit all over the place, but high level dan

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Speaker 1: to where we are today. Engineer by training did a

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Speaker 1: mass was an engineering thought. I was going to be

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Speaker 1: very technicle worked as an engineer for a while software hardware.

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Speaker 1: Wanted to learn business, didn't want to go back to school.

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Speaker 1: I joined a startup and said, hey, I think I

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Speaker 1: can do business. Nothing on paper says I could do business.

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Speaker 1: How about I just come here and work for a

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Speaker 1: little while for free, and let's see what happens. No

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Speaker 1: R no foul. Got very lucky. Executive team there kind

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Speaker 1: of took me under their wing and I got to like,

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Speaker 1: sit here, don't talk, take notes, treatment, but I could

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Speaker 1: sit in all the rooms. So I learned about fundraising, commercialization, deals,

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Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. It was awesome. From there,

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Speaker 1: I jumped founded my first company. It was like a

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Speaker 1: double you know, happy with it, didn't retire at the

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Speaker 1: age of twenty two. Wanted to go bigger, so did that,

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Speaker 1: went the conventional route, raise VC money, you know, hired

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Speaker 1: up a team two and a half years, maybe a

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Speaker 1: chat for another podcast where we could talk about if

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Speaker 1: you want that company crashed. Lots of learnings out of that.

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Speaker 1: One thought my career was over. You know, no one's

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Speaker 1: ever going to hire me. I'm a total failure? Or

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Speaker 1: what I to do now? And one of my investors,

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Speaker 1: whose money I almost entirely lost, calls me up one

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Speaker 1: day and says, I met this team. I think you

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Speaker 1: should have a chat with them. It was the folks

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Speaker 1: at Airbnb back before Airbnb was. Airbnb joined there when

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Speaker 1: it was you know, a few hundred people got to

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Speaker 1: experience the ramp up to thousands and see what that

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Speaker 1: was like, which was incredible. Left there became the COO

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Speaker 1: of an AI company, back before AI was the cool

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Speaker 1: thing to do and everybody was doing it, and we

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Speaker 1: built that up from the ground floor again, which was

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Speaker 1: really amazing. And now I spend the majority of my

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Speaker 1: time advising other founders, other executives, you know, scale ups,

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Speaker 1: larger corporations, on how to build teams that people are

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Speaker 1: both love working for and are incredibly high performing, which

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Speaker 1: sometimes feels like an oxymoron. And I had this book

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Speaker 1: come out in September, which has been crazy exciting. Never

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Speaker 1: thought I would write a book, you know, all about

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Speaker 1: how to enjoy your job more and how to tactically

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Speaker 1: accomplish that. So it's not just a bunch of platitudes

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Speaker 1: that you know, we all know, like find a job

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Speaker 1: you love, You'll never work a day in your life,

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Speaker 1: like thank you. Go find me one person for whom

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Speaker 1: that's true. Like it. You know, what what can I

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Speaker 1: actually do tactically?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Very cool, I'm here talking to you.

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Speaker 2: So the startup, the startup ward is a very interesting world, right,

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Speaker 2: So I had a startup, rese some money and you

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Speaker 2: know it's fucking all encompassing, isn't it. It's a pretty

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Speaker 2: full on Please, what were the big lessons that you

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Speaker 2: learned from working in because you've worked in a couple

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Speaker 2: of different startups.

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Speaker 3: Right, anything that's big that has.

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Speaker 2: Come out of that startup word that you can apply

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Speaker 2: across the board.

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Speaker 1: That's a hard question. Yeah, the answer is yes, And

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Speaker 1: I'm struggling. It's like the ideas are rushing out of

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Speaker 1: my mouth and all getting stuck. You know, to pick

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Speaker 1: one is hard. Maybe I would pick one from it.

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Speaker 1: I pick two, you know, one from Airbnb. Maybe they're

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Speaker 1: both kind of airbnb ish. But I've kind of learned

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Speaker 1: I'm a very people first person. Now, you know, you

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Speaker 1: tell me a problem. I work with my clients. They

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Speaker 1: tell me we're not hitting our sales targets, or the

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Speaker 1: engineering team's not moving fast enough, or revenue isn't where

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Speaker 1: we want it to be. And where a lot of

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Speaker 1: people will start unpacking. You know, what's the market, what's this?

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Speaker 1: What's to that? I'm like, who are the people involved,

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Speaker 1: what are they trying to accomplish, what does that look like?

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Speaker 1: And what's getting in the way for them? And this

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Speaker 1: is kind of backwards to the way that I thought

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Speaker 1: about it coming up through my engineering background, where it

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Speaker 1: was very much like what's the problem, how do we

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Speaker 1: solve it? And people are one of many inputs to

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Speaker 1: solving it, but like they're interchangeable, you know, you take me,

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Speaker 1: you take you, you swap us around. We can get

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Speaker 1: the job done. I think that for me that has

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Speaker 1: proven out to be incorrect. And you know, focusing on

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Speaker 1: the people is that old saying. You know, you take

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Speaker 1: care of your people and they'll take care of the problems.

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Speaker 1: I really think hard about how we're building a team

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Speaker 1: around people to what I love doing. How do we

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Speaker 1: make sure that people are feeling fired up to do

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Speaker 1: the work even when it's hard. How are they able

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Speaker 1: to do the best work in their careers. I think

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Speaker 1: it's not easy to put people in that position and

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Speaker 1: sustain it over time.

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Speaker 2: A comment on that, and before you get onto the

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Speaker 2: second one.

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Speaker 3: I just did a bit of work with a company

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Speaker 3: in the state.

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Speaker 2: It's called One Life Fitness, So they're a fitness chain

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Speaker 2: that have grown pretty quickly and done an amazing job

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Speaker 2: in the fitness industry and just got bought out by

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Speaker 2: VCS and I spent I did a half day with

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Speaker 2: the entire leadership team, got to know the owners of business,

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Speaker 2: and then I went out to their convention and did

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Speaker 2: did three days with all their their kind of key

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Speaker 2: staff in there. And the thing that really struck me

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Speaker 2: I saw it in the first half day that I

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Speaker 2: did with the leadership team, but then just being there

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Speaker 2: with all the people was just how focused they are

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Speaker 2: on people and they had they had actually a twin

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Speaker 2: focus on mission and people, so they were very passionate

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Speaker 2: about the mission. But Jesus today look after their people

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Speaker 2: and were genuinely concerned about their people, and they're I

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Speaker 2: think one of the biggest success stories in the fitness industry.

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Speaker 3: Of lit.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot that have flindered, but these guys have

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Speaker 2: grown really quickly but kept the culture. And it was

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Speaker 2: just amazing just how much talk there was about culture, culture, culture, people, people, people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's usually important, you know, we

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Speaker 1: we're saying it. Airbnbs online is Brian Cheski, the CEO,

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Speaker 1: was like, don't fuck up the culture. Pretty simple role,

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Speaker 1: you know. And so you're going to scale, the culture

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Speaker 1: is going to change, but don't screw it up. And

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Speaker 1: to not screw it up, you've got to be talking

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Speaker 1: about it constantly. You've got to be hiring against it.

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Speaker 1: And culture isn't like, oh, we have a ping pong

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Speaker 1: table in like free food. You know, that's not culture.

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Speaker 1: Those are amenities. Culture is like how do we show

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Speaker 1: up for each other? What's the work environment? Like how

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Speaker 1: do we treat each other when we're at work? You know,

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Speaker 1: I think these things are important and often overlook they

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Speaker 1: get the like soft skill Moniker, and I think it's

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Speaker 1: the opposite. You know, you go to companies, a lot

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Speaker 1: of companies, and I'll show me your values. I'll ask

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Speaker 1: the question. Right, we have a tough decision. Should we

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Speaker 1: work with this customer or not? Should we grow into

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Speaker 1: this market or not? Do we hire this leader or

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Speaker 1: get rid of that leader? First question, show me the values.

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Speaker 1: Why are you asking me this question?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 1: You know, if you're not using your values to make decisions,

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Speaker 1: they're just like a nice piece of art on the wall.

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Speaker 1: And for me, when you have five, six, seven, eight

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Speaker 1: nine values, they're not doing anything for me. Values are

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Speaker 1: something where it's like, I'm prepared to pay a price

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Speaker 1: to adhere to this value. And if I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to pay a price for it, why am I writing

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Speaker 1: it up there? And by price, I mean maybe we're

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Speaker 1: not going to work with this customer because they provide

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Speaker 1: a product that isn't align with our values that's going

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Speaker 1: to cost us something. Maybe I'm not going to hire

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Speaker 1: Paul because you know, he's a great guy and he's

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Speaker 1: highly skilled, but he just doesn't match our culture in

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Speaker 1: the way that we work here. Nothing wrong with him,

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Speaker 1: but you know, we're letting go of where we're not

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Speaker 1: going to hire a person who could be really great.

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Speaker 1: We're not going to go into a market because it

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter of ours whatever it might be. You know,

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Speaker 1: I really like to have people think about values through

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Speaker 1: the lens of what are you prepared to pay a

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Speaker 1: price for? And if you're not going to pay a

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Speaker 1: price for it, it's not a value. They're easy to

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Speaker 1: hop hold and everything's going great A lot harder when

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Speaker 1: things are going well.

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Speaker 2: I love that that we're in violent agreement on that.

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Speaker 3: I love your what he.

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Speaker 2: Prepared to pay a price for? I've never thought it

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Speaker 2: through that lens. But when I work with organizations, particularly

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Speaker 2: leaders leadership teams, and especially the big organizations, I will

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Speaker 2: often say, right, stand up, who can tell me the

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Speaker 2: purpose of the mission statement of this organization? Right? And

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Speaker 2: a bunch of people stand up, and I say, remain

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Speaker 2: standing if you can get a word by word for beatum.

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Speaker 2: And then and then some people sit down and say,

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Speaker 2: remain standing if you're willing to put a thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: on it one way, bet right that if you get

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Speaker 2: one word wrong that side and most of the room

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Speaker 2: for you in set time, you probably collected lot. And

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Speaker 2: then I do the values, And my whole thing is

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Speaker 2: that values are not. You know, a lot of people there.

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Speaker 2: It's just a backslapping episode, isn't it. Or they're bringing

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Speaker 2: these external consultants and they get these values that seem

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Speaker 2: really cold, but their behavior is not congruent with their

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Speaker 2: values exactly. For me, mission is where you're going, and

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Speaker 2: values is how you get there.

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Speaker 1: And I'm so interested in how you get their story.

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Speaker 1: I think that for me has been the you know

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Speaker 1: we talked behind crashed the company you were kind of

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Speaker 1: asking about, like the second lesson. You know, I think

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Speaker 1: it's some morphed version of when you're in startups, like

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Speaker 1: it is an ego buster. I have failed in every

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Speaker 1: possible business way that you can imagine, and I'm still

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Speaker 1: standing and things are still going great, and you know,

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Speaker 1: you think that like, oh, this failure is going to

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Speaker 1: get me. If this goes wrong, my career is over.

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Speaker 1: If this happens, I'm done. Not really. People aren't paying

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Speaker 1: as much attention to you as you are to yourself,

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Speaker 1: you know, And there's there's always a good story, so

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Speaker 1: long as the way you got there is aligned with

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Speaker 1: your values to bring the conversation full circle, And you know,

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Speaker 1: I think that's why, like I was shocked when the investor,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, dude, I lost all your money, what are

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Speaker 1: you doing me a favor for And he's like, I

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Speaker 1: watched the way you did this. That was the right

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Speaker 1: way to do. It's not a fault at the company crash.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. You know, you were

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Speaker 1: a human throughout it and trustworthy throughout it, and you

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Speaker 1: did it the right way and for that reason, I

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Speaker 1: would recommend you for anything. And I was like, ah,

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Speaker 1: you know, I thought it was all about the outcome,

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Speaker 1: and now I think a lot more about the process

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Speaker 1: to get to the outcome. What do the steps look like,

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Speaker 1: what's going on day to day for you? This was

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Speaker 1: like the genesis of the book and just really being

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Speaker 1: more focused on you're doing the right thing. Sometimes you win,

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Speaker 1: sometimes you lose, but like overall, it's gonna be a

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Speaker 1: win when you're proud of the steps that you're taking

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Speaker 1: hard to do.

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Speaker 2: A couple of questions are a comment on that and

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Speaker 2: what you just said, people are not paying as much

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Speaker 2: attention to you as your paying to yourself. That is

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Speaker 2: a message that needs to be imprinted in every single

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Speaker 2: teenager's brain around the world, right particularly with today and

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Speaker 2: social media, because it's a hard one. I think it's

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Speaker 2: a you know, this is a massive tangent, but that

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Speaker 2: that is a a massive driver of people just being

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Speaker 2: in their own heads and thinking everybody's looking at them,

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Speaker 2: thinking about them, judging them, all that stuff, when in fact,

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Speaker 2: everybody's too busy in their own heads thinking about what

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Speaker 2: others just thinking about. But to bring it back to again,

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Speaker 2: you talked about values. You talked about essentially, what that

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Speaker 2: investor was saying was that you had good character that

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Speaker 2: you know throughout those tribulations. I will often talk an

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Speaker 2: album for a while. Actually I should talk about this

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Speaker 2: a bit more about Shackleton. You're familiar with, arn't Shackleton?

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Speaker 2: And that I mean, for me, if listeners haven't heard

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Speaker 2: this story, the story of endurance is, I think, and

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Speaker 2: leadership lessons, right, I've got actually a book right behind

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Speaker 2: me about leadership lessons from the whole Shackleton thing. But

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Speaker 2: Hayes big thing was hiring on character, because you can

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Speaker 2: teach skills, and he purely hard on character. And one

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Speaker 2: of his other things was sabby haring and faring that

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Speaker 2: as soon as he realized that the person was not

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Speaker 2: of the right character, didn't fit the values. Then he

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Speaker 2: got rid because he knew that. You know, he did

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Speaker 2: not actually know what he was going into, but he

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Speaker 2: knew was going into something that was bloody difficult.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: The more uncertain the path, the more certain you want

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Speaker 1: to be about the people. Like I think, it's yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's that simple. You know, I don't know what we're

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Speaker 1: going to hit. Let's make sure that we're aligned on

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Speaker 1: the way we think through problems, not the same. Last

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Speaker 1: thing I want is ten other me's going with me

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Speaker 1: on a journey. I'm like, that's that's not going to

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Speaker 1: go great for anybody. But I want ten people that

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Speaker 1: are aligned with my value so that I know when

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Speaker 1: things start to go wrong, we're not going to be

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Speaker 1: pushing each other down. We're going to be looking for

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Speaker 1: a way to, you know, pull all of ourselves up.

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Speaker 1: So it's hard, you know, it's Hiring for values is challenging.

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Speaker 1: People can get offended. They think that you're kind of

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Speaker 1: judging their character. It's not that, you know, you can

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Speaker 1: be a great human being and just not a fit

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Speaker 1: for the values of an organization. You know, there are

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Speaker 1: lots of great people who wouldn't fit great in an

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Speaker 1: investment bank. That doesn't mean that the investment bank is

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Speaker 1: wrong or that the people are wrong. It's just like

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Speaker 1: this is not, you know, a great fit. I love baseball.

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Speaker 1: You asked me to play cricket. I'll try, but like

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Speaker 1: that's not something that I'm you know, all that passionate about,

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Speaker 1: and the rules of the game are quite different, so

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Speaker 1: I'm probably not going to be phenomenal at cricket. And

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Speaker 1: I think it's just kind of getting that into the

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Speaker 1: ethos of the organization that every time we make a

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Speaker 1: major decision, the values need to be considered. And what

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Speaker 1: bigger decision than who's going to be on this journey

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Speaker 1: with us and what people do we have to ask

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Speaker 1: to leave, you know, the journey with us for whatever reason.

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Speaker 1: It's very hard. It's a simple thing to say, but

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Speaker 1: it's not an easy thing to do to permeate the

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Speaker 1: values through major decisions inside of an organization.

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Speaker 2: And I think one of the things that becomes really difficult.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you kind of captured it when you talked

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Speaker 2: about the CEO of Rbnb saying don't fuck up the culture.

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Speaker 2: Really interesting research by a Scottish anthropologists called Dunbar and

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Speaker 2: it just popped into my head for some reason.

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Speaker 3: I have no idea.

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Speaker 2: But he was an anthropologist who studied basically, you know,

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Speaker 2: anthropologies for him was the study of humans and tribes

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Speaker 2: and how we interact. And he studied human tribes all

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Speaker 2: around the world and came up with something that's now

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Speaker 2: called Dunbar's number.

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Speaker 1: I think I know that, yeah, keep going.

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Speaker 2: Right, So that what he found in tribal societies was that,

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Speaker 2: you know, as humans, we have always lived in small

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Speaker 2: to medium sized tribes. And Dunbar showed up and over

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Speaker 2: again when a tribe hit about one hundred and twenty

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Speaker 2: to one hundred and thirty people, that it started to fracture,

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Speaker 2: that there started to become lots of subgroups and stuff

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Speaker 2: like that, and competing interests. And Dunbar's number was the

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Speaker 2: kind of the upper limit of a a well functioning tribe.

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Speaker 2: And then other people have taken that and actually applied

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Speaker 2: it to business. And I've talked to a number of

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Speaker 2: startups who are growing and you know, maybe it's not

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Speaker 2: exactly that one hundred and twenty one hundred and thirty,

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Speaker 2: but certainly when they get over one hundred, that one

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Speaker 2: hundred to one hundred and fifty. That's when just everything

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Speaker 2: becomes so much more complicated.

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Speaker 1: When you don't know everybody's name. That's the that's my

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Speaker 1: kind of spot is like when you no longer know

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Speaker 1: there goes PAULI. You're like, who's that guy? You know?

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Speaker 1: And that happens to you two three times a day.

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Speaker 1: It's and you're right, I've seen it. The inflection point

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Speaker 1: is somewhere around the low hundreds, and then once you

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Speaker 1: start getting up into like five hundred to one thousand,

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Speaker 1: things shift, and ten thousand they shift again. Like it's

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Speaker 1: it's lots and lots of shifting, you know. That's why

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Speaker 1: you ask a questionary like people dynamics, man, I think

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Speaker 1: it's everything. You can have the best strategy in the

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Speaker 1: world and you can't find a way, like the right

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Speaker 1: system of work, the right values to glue everybody together.

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Speaker 1: You know, the end of the day, if you're going

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Speaker 1: to do something truly transformed, it probably more than one

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Speaker 1: hundred and twenty people are going to need to be involved.

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Speaker 1: So how are they all going to work together in

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Speaker 1: a way that's effective and not? You know, one plus

401
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,120
Speaker 1: one equals negative one, you know, that's that's that's why

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Speaker 1: I'm so interested in team dynamics and that kind of

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Speaker 1: stuff around. It's not just about the product. I love

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Speaker 1: the product. I love that stuff, but who are the

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Speaker 1: people around it? You know, it's the surest way to crash,

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Speaker 1: and the best way to be successful is to really

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Speaker 1: invest in people.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so let's not talk about the individual.

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Speaker 3: Right, So your book is all about you.

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Speaker 2: Know, your grass is greener. I like that topic. I

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Speaker 2: sorry that title. It's just kind of appealed to me

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Speaker 2: straight away. Why did you come up with that title?

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Speaker 1: I would love to take credit for it, I can't.

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Speaker 1: It has to go to my brother in law. We

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Speaker 1: were kind of work shopping titles and I kind of

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Speaker 1: had the concept and I hadn't found the words yet.

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Speaker 1: And I'm glad to hear you like the title because

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Speaker 1: I love it too and work really really hard at it.

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Speaker 1: But what I was trying to capture is this essence

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Speaker 1: that a lot of times I think we make. Look

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Speaker 1: if you look at work right now, a lot of

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Speaker 1: people are struggling. I think that's you can look at

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Speaker 1: all sorts of different numbers, like look at the number

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Speaker 1: of people that are quiet quitting, or the data on

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Speaker 1: the great resignation millions of people quit and change jobs.

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Speaker 1: Something like eighty percent of them are regretting it now,

427
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Speaker 1: like people are burning out, they're disengaged. There's just a

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Speaker 1: lot of struggle in the workplace.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to throw in at Jason just for here,

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Speaker 2: because I read it recently. In New South Wales, which

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Speaker 2: is a big state, it's probably nearly a third of

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Speaker 2: the population of austral It is certainly over a quarter.

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Speaker 2: Psychological injuries are rising at three times the reit of

434
00:20:58,640 --> 00:20:59,960
Speaker 2: physical injuries in the workplace.

435
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a huge problem. And I wanted to like

436
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,680
Speaker 1: add to the story, and it added to the conversation

437
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 1: in a bit of a different way. And I found

438
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 1: that a lot of the rhetoric is are these things

439
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 1: like find a job you know that you love, and

440
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,160
Speaker 1: ever work a day in your life. And I think

441
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 1: it's true that there are times when you're in a

442
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,320
Speaker 1: toxic work environment and the only thing you can do

443
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,719
Speaker 1: is make a change. But for my research, a lot

444
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,320
Speaker 1: of times we assume that the only thing we can

445
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,520
Speaker 1: do is make a change, and often there's a lot

446
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 1: you can do, like hold up a mirror and some

447
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 1: things that you can do that you can change that

448
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,000
Speaker 1: you're in control of in your job, no matter how

449
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 1: micromanager your boss might be. And you do these things

450
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,879
Speaker 1: and it can improve your work situation a ton. And

451
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,879
Speaker 1: the worst case is you try these things and it

452
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,959
Speaker 1: doesn't improve your work situation. Then you know for certain

453
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 1: it's time to make a change. But too often we

454
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,119
Speaker 1: jump to something new we think it's going to be better.

455
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 1: The honeymoon period ends because we haven't changed how we

456
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 1: work right. The way we're trying to accomplish our ject

457
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 1: gives all of the frustrating stuff from the old job,

458
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 1: except for maybe you have better snacks now, and a

459
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 1: slightly higher salary comes rushing back, right, And.

460
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:10,879
Speaker 3: That's hence the grasp being greener.

461
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 1: Right, That's right. And what I what I wanted to

462
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 1: show people is I started kind of working on these

463
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,720
Speaker 1: tactics for myself, and what I learned is, geez, like,

464
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,440
Speaker 1: the things I thought were going to help me enjoy

465
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:25,119
Speaker 1: my job more were things like accomplish this, accomplish that,

466
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 1: achieve this, add this accolade. Those things were fleeting. You know,

467
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 1: I know you'll know this better than me, But like,

468
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 1: hedonic adaptation is a real thing I think happens, you know,

469
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,159
Speaker 1: you peak in my case for like sub five minutes,

470
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 1: and you're already thinking about the next objective that you're

471
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 1: going to try to hit. But you know, how can

472
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,399
Speaker 1: you kind of systematically enjoy the journey a little bit

473
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 1: more along the way. And as you know, a type

474
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 1: A who was very focused on accomplishing things, what I

475
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:52,920
Speaker 1: kind of learned is there's like a lot of rejection

476
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 1: around this enjoy concept. You know, for me, I was

477
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 1: always like, well, I'll enjoy it when I get there,

478
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 1: when I retire, when I sell a company, when I

479
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,199
Speaker 1: make X amount of money, when I get this promotion

480
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 1: or finish this project. Enjoyment's always like just over the hill.

481
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 1: But if you look into the research, what you find

482
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,360
Speaker 1: is like, enjoyment isn't the fluff of your job. Enjoyment

483
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 1: is the fuel. Like if you enjoy your job more,

484
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 1: you're going to increase the probability that you accomplish. The

485
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 1: more you enjoy, the more you achieve, the more you achieve,

486
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 1: the more you enjoy. It's like this beautiful self fulfilling prophecy.

487
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 1: And so I bought into that. But then the question

488
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 1: is like, well, what do I do? You know you

489
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,680
Speaker 1: get another platitude like work smarter, not harder. Everyone's heard

490
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 1: this one, right, Yeah, borderline offensive, Like I don't wake

491
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 1: up in the morning every day and say to myself,

492
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 1: I have a job to do. What's the dumbest way

493
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 1: I can get this done. I'm trying my best and

494
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,159
Speaker 1: someone comes along and like, hey, Jay, you should work smarter.

495
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, do you have any suggestions, because I'm

496
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: you know, I'm trying. And this was where I kind

497
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 1: of flipped over a bunch of these workplace assumptions because

498
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 1: I had, you know, systemically experimented with a bunch of stuff,

499
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: and it completely changed my perspective. I wound up writing

500
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,400
Speaker 1: this book where it's like the nine most common workplace

501
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,479
Speaker 1: challenges and a specific tactic that is entirely within your

502
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 1: control that you can like put down the book and try.

503
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:17,919
Speaker 1: And the kind of guarantee I give folks with the

504
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 1: book is like, read the book and try the tactics.

505
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 1: It's either going to improve the situation and you're going

506
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,159
Speaker 1: to be enjoying your job more and achieving more, or

507
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: it won't and you're going to have some clarity about

508
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 1: whether or not that's the right job for you to

509
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 1: be in.

510
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like it, and look, well we will dive

511
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 2: into maybe one or two of those workplace challenges and

512
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 2: the tactics that you can use. But a couple of

513
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 2: things that popped up when you were talking about that,

514
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 2: the hadonic adaptation and they you know, I will enjoy

515
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 2: this more when I get there, and then talking about

516
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 2: the process. You just kind of summarized a brilliant book.

517
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 2: I don't know if you've ever read it, but you shoot.

518
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 2: If you haven't, you shoot, because I think you will

519
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,120
Speaker 2: love it. Zen and the Art of Motorcycle meant.

520
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 3: You read it?

521
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, cool, and that you know the line that's stuck

522
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 2: in my head. I think I was seventeen when I

523
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 2: read it is you know, he was talking about the

524
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 2: top of the mountain and people just just always being

525
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 2: focused on getting to the top of the mountain and

526
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 2: this one line, sometimes it's better to travel than to

527
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 2: get there.

528
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. Great book. I'll throw another one back at you.

529
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 1: Have you read The Courage to Be Disliked?

530
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 3: No, But so you're gonna like that.

531
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 1: You're gonna like this one because I think I think

532
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: I heard that you were into a lot of Japanese psychology.

533
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, yeah, my wife's a practitioner in it.

534
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: So that's why I thought, yeah, you're gonna love this book.

535
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,639
Speaker 1: Amazing analogy in there where it's something to me and

536
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,239
Speaker 1: I'm going to butcher it terrible. You're going to read

537
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: the book and email me in three weeks and say, dude,

538
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: you've totally screwed it up. But like, the concept is,

539
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: we all have this idea that life is like a

540
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: mountain climb. We're trying to get to the peak. And

541
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: the point in the book is it's not climbing a mountain.

542
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 1: It's dancing. Right. You're active and you're moving, but you're

543
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: not going.

544
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 2: Anywhere and nice right, and they're.

545
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: Objectives, but they don't take you to any place. Yeah,

546
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,640
Speaker 1: and when you shift your mentality from trying to get

547
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 1: to the peak to trying to do the best dance,

548
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 1: you know, it can really have a big, big impact

549
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 1: and the courage would be Dislike for me, it's one

550
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: of those ones where it's just like you read the

551
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: book and it like flip my brain inside out a

552
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 1: little bit. I'm like, that's perspective shifting. Like I I

553
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 1: highly recommend it. It's a bit of a tough read

554
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 1: to get through because it's translated from Japanese. So the

555
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: flow is yeah, yeah, that's worth it. In my opinion,

556
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: it's really really worth it.

557
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 3: Cool.

558
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 2: Right, that's on to the top of my list before

559
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,199
Speaker 2: we jump into the workplace thing. You said one of

560
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,719
Speaker 2: the things that I was quite intrigued about is that

561
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,360
Speaker 2: you seem to be your own scientist, which I love.

562
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 2: So you've said that you've tried a whole heap of

563
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,439
Speaker 2: personal and professional wellness experiments that didn't work. Talk to

564
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 2: me about some of the fuck ups. Talk to me. Oh, actually,

565
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 2: you know, we often call the field experiments. But you know,

566
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 2: Thomas Edison famously said, you know when he was trying

567
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 2: to ten size and field experiments, and he was like,

568
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 2: with every field experiment, I'm one step closer, right, I

569
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 2: know what doesn't work. So give us some maybe a

570
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 2: couple of experiments that you try that just flopped. Oh,

571
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 2: I mean, and and what did you learn?

572
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 1: We could talk for hours about this, for sure, and

573
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 1: I can. I could even give you one in the

574
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: middle that was like one of the only like maybe ones.

575
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: A lot of them were quite conclusive, either very good,

576
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: clearly not good, or like right in the middle. So

577
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 1: the long and short is. I went like super deep,

578
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: you know, like Tim Ferris before I knew who Tim Ferriss,

579
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 1: was like if there was a thing somewhere that said

580
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 1: this will make you feel better, do better, or perform better.

581
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: I was like, game on, I'm gonna try that. And

582
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: I kept this tracker and I was running probably somewhere

583
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 1: between like two and four different like experiments every single week,

584
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: and I would measure it every single day, and I

585
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,199
Speaker 1: had all this like interesting day. It was really it

586
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 1: was really good. That went on for about two years,

587
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 1: and then I brought it to the workplace so we can.

588
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 3: Talk about the engineer and you is coming pretty strong.

589
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 1: This was like from startups, you know. I was used

590
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: to the idea of when you're trying to get product

591
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: market fit. You have a thing, you have an idea,

592
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: you want to put the product in market. You're always wrong.

593
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 1: You try it, you iterate it, you have hypotheses, you

594
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 1: test and learn. I did that on myself, right. I

595
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 1: was the product and I was like, let's test and

596
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: learn and see what happens here. So I had read

597
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: this book. You asked them some of the ones that

598
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 1: didn't go swimmingly. I had read this book about the microbiome,

599
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: and it blew my mind. You know, I never thought

600
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: about this idea that you know, I'm this one person

601
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: and there are billions of these things on my skin,

602
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: inside of me, and they have a huge impact on

603
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: my health, my mood, my wellness. Never thought about this

604
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: great mic or biome sounds awesome. Here's the thing. When

605
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: we shower, the hypothesis went, and we're constantly using cleaning

606
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: products on our body, we are altering our microbiome and

607
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: we're not altering it for the better. So the test

608
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: is stop with all of the cleaning.

609
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 2: Products, right so that you then you then become a

610
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 2: self cleansing entity.

611
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: Your microbiome gets to a spot that's much more natural

612
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: for you, and so it puts you in a more

613
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 1: center place in YadA, YadA, YadA. The book's called Clean.

614
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: If you want to read it, you can check it out.

615
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: So I'm like, great, I'm gonna do this. Well, let's

616
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: what could go wrong? Idiot? So I still wash my hands,

617
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: but like, no soap, no shampoo. I made it like

618
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: five days, four days, and it just was like this

619
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: might result in a better microbiome, but I feel disgusting,

620
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: like just for like, I didn't want to go out

621
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: of the house anymore. I was like avoiding people. You know,

622
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:47,479
Speaker 1: I'm causing you, like, do I stick? Am I that

623
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: guy right now?

624
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:48,719
Speaker 2: Like?

625
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: And that was whatever benefits I might have gotten down

626
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: the road was pretty much tossed out of the out

627
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: of the gate because I just didn't feel physically amazing

628
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: and like, so that one went in the garbage. Funnily enough,

629
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: my wife, my wife didn't notice. I didn't tell her, so,

630
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: you know, years later when she found out, she's like,

631
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: what the hell, So it couldn't have been that bad,

632
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: but I really didn't love that one of the ones

633
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: that was kind of a maybe. I got big into

634
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: cold plunging. Again, this was long before it was like

635
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 1: the cool thing to do. I would start my day

636
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: with forget the exact amount, but four or five minutes freezing,

637
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 1: freezing cold, and I replaced my morning shower with it.

638
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: So it was like I would cold plunge and then

639
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: I would shower very quickly. At the time, I had

640
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: a very young son, and I've got two kids now,

641
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: but a young kid. And for anybody out there with parents,

642
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: you know, I was like the CEO of an AI

643
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: company I had a young kid, and as silly as

644
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: it sounds, the like eight minutes in the morning when

645
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: I get to take a shower is like sacred time.

646
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: You know, I don't get at I don't get a

647
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: lot of other meat time at that time. And so

648
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: what wound up happening was, first of all, it works

649
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: in my experience. The theory is you could plunge, it

650
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: hits your dopamine, and depending on how you do it,

651
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: that dopaminehit can carry throughout the day.

652
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 3: But know what adrenaline as well?

653
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, So I was tracking how I was feeling,

654
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: and both my data and my felt experience was like

655
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: I am feeling better, Like I feel invigorated, I feel great,

656
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: but I dread the hell out of every single morning.

657
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 1: And it just hit me in a moment in my

658
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: life where I was like this might be better for me,

659
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: but I don't enjoy the process, back to like are

660
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: you enjoying the journey? The outcome was there, but the

661
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: way I was accomplishing it it was pain. It was dread.

662
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: I didn't like. It was like throwing away eight minutes

663
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 1: that I really enjoyed it. It was like a tight moment

664
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: when I could you know, hop in the shower and

665
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: have my own space, and instead it was just like wow, freezing,

666
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: hate this, Get me out of here. So I stopped

667
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: that one, even though for me it really felt like

668
00:31:58,640 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: it was having the intended impact.

669
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 2: Can I just throw in something in there? Having interviewed

670
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 2: Professor Mike Tipton on this, who is pretty much the

671
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 2: world leading scientist when it comes to cold exposure, and

672
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 2: I was talking to Mike, and he reckons that almost

673
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 2: all of the benefits come in the first twenty to

674
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 2: thirty seconds, that it's just the cold water shock, and

675
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 2: that it's at that natural response that we have to

676
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 2: that cold water, that entire body brain system that is activated.

677
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 3: And it's really interesting that the reason that it increases

678
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 3: dopamine and nora adrenaline.

679
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 2: Is if you think about it, that cold water shock

680
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 2: would be you falling in as a hunter gatherer to

681
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 2: really cold water flight. So it makes sense that norah adrenaline,

682
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 2: one of the stress chemicals that enhances focus, would dramatically increase,

683
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 2: as would dopamine, which is about gold directed behavior and

684
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 2: division to act would spike up right. And I find

685
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 2: and you'll still see that I thered there's people who

686
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 2: are doing cold plunges, they're in ice bats, they're eight

687
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 2: ten minutes, ten minutes, they're sticking on Instagram, and I'm

688
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 2: thinking anything past thirty seconds, it's just fucking ego.

689
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: That's what I've read now is eleven minutes a week

690
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: is enough to make the difference, and eleven minutes a

691
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: week is not.

692
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 2: You know that that's son, your Sonnsberg's stuff. And actually

693
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 2: it's really interesting because she found out but there was

694
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: no real dose response comparison. I'm actually wanted to run

695
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 2: an experiment with Professor Grant Scofield on the Homesis lab

696
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 2: to find out what is the minimal effect of dose? Right, Yes,

697
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 2: eleven minute works, but does two minutes work?

698
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 3: Right?

699
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: And let me know if you do what temperature?

700
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that that's that's going to be the interesting thing, right,

701
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 2: is the dose response and what is the minimal effect

702
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 2: of dose? But anyway we we transgress.

703
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: I mean I could go on for out. There were

704
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: I must have done hundreds of hundreds of these things,

705
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 1: and to this day I continue to do like sub

706
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: twenty of them. So there were a lot of ones

707
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: that went the wrong way.

708
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 2: What do you reckon has absolutely worked that's a bit

709
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 2: of standard okay, cool meditation.

710
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: You know, that was something I thought I would never do.

711
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,399
Speaker 1: You know, I kind of incorrectly look down my nose

712
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: at it as for someone else who has time for

713
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 1: that kind of thing, it's soft like, yeah, I don't

714
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: have time for it. Basically, total game changer therapy was

715
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 1: a big one for me. Huge. To be able to

716
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 1: talk to somebody and you know, a professional who understands

717
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 1: my the way my mind works and you know, can

718
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: teach me some stuff about myself has been really great.

719
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: There's lots of stuff in the book that I cover

720
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: as well, but you know how I open and close

721
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: my week and prioritize is completely different. You know, there's again,

722
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 1: we could probably spend the whole podcast on experiments that

723
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,399
Speaker 1: failed in the ones that that did pretty well.

724
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 2: So total dude, talk to me about your meditation practice

725
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 2: because it's something that I've doubled in every nine and

726
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 2: I'm one of those people who he's not great at meditating.

727
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 2: I find a guided one is much easier. But where

728
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 2: I've landed is breath work. Right, breathwork is something that

729
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 2: works for me, which is essentially a fault, right YEA

730
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 2: call it.

731
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 1: Whatever you want. And you know, I'm not a guru

732
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 1: by any means. I think if I was a guru,

733
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: I would say something to you, like, there is no

734
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: such thing as not being great at meditation. My favorite

735
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,959
Speaker 1: book if anyone's thinking about meditating and they're not kind

736
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 1: of like fully into it yet ten Percent Happier by

737
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: Dan Harris. I love that book.

738
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 3: I liked it, Dan Harris.

739
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: I love this book like he just it's it's the

740
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: journey to start meditating, told from the mind of a

741
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: complete skeptic, which is amazing. And his story is unbelievable.

742
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: You know, if you don't know it. He used to

743
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: be a news anchor. He goes on air. He was,

744
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: you know, taking a lot of cocaine at the time,

745
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 1: and he has a breakdown on air and he has

746
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: to figure out how to pick the pieces up in

747
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: his life after that, and he's highly skeptical, and he

748
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: goes through a whole bunch of meditation tests. For me,

749
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 1: I keep it light weight. I don't like to breach

750
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 1: too much, so we don't spend too much time on it.

751
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: But for me, it's quite simple. Now it's ten minutes

752
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 1: a day. It's time that I you know, just reserved

753
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 1: to sit and similar kind of breath work stuff, just

754
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: whatever's going on in my mind. I'm going to take

755
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: some time to be mindful of paying attention to what's

756
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: happening inside of my head rather than just you know,

757
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: running around. I find the ten minutes I used to

758
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: meditate much longer. It kind of abs and flows based

759
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: on what's going on in life at the time. It's

760
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: been as much as you know, forty five minutes to

761
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 1: an hour a day and as little as two to

762
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: three minutes a day, depending what's going on. I just

763
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 1: try to keep the consistent practice and it's had an

764
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: incredible impact on my self awareness.

765
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 2: And look, I would throw in one that's a little

766
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 2: bit left find that people don't really think of as meditation,

767
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 2: but the Stoic philosophers were big fans of it.

768
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:56,800
Speaker 3: And that's journaling.

769
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 2: And that just reflective process and you know, the store

770
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 2: which were big of setting your intentions for the day,

771
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 2: spending a few minutes just in the morning about setting

772
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 2: your intentions, how I want to show up, what sort

773
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,919
Speaker 2: of virtues do I want to express today? And then

774
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 2: just doing a reflection in the evening. You have you

775
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 2: played with journaling a bit.

776
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so that's what I meant about my kind

777
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: of weekly habit. I open and close every week, and

778
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 1: I open and close every day with a similar kind

779
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: of a thing of what's important this week? You know,

780
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 1: what things are not going to get done this week.

781
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: I'm very intentional about that. You know, how do I

782
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 1: want to show up this week? Are there some things

783
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 1: that I'm thinking about? Journaling is something I dabbled with.

784
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: Multiple different kinds of journaling were in the big experimental set.

785
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 1: You know. I didn't keep up with it, not because

786
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 1: I would say it didn't work. I just found meditation was,

787
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 1: you know, doing the job for me. But the one

788
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 1: that stuck out the most is free writing. I really

789
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: like this one. You basically, it's really simple. You get

790
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 1: a probably in my case, I needed a bunch of

791
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: pieces of paper, but you set a timer the KOD

792
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: amount of time. I'm minute, two minutes, five minutes. The

793
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: only rule is you can't stop writing. You's just right.

794
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: You write right, right, right right, and it's whatever comes

795
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: out of your brain. You know, I'm thinking this right now.

796
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: I'm thinking that right now. I don't know what to write.

797
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 1: I don't know what to write. I don't know what

798
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: to write. It doesn't matter what you write. It's just

799
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: that you continue the stream of consciousness down on to

800
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: the piece of paper. And I noticed that that had

801
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 1: a very interesting effect of just like seeing what was

802
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: going on in my mind written down on a piece

803
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: of paper, and then when you're done, it's not like

804
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 1: dear diary. Today I met Paul and we had such

805
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: a nice conversation, so I can read that in five years.

806
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 1: You finish, you crumple it up, you throw in the garbage.

807
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 2: Ah, you know, it's just it's just a self awareness practice.

808
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: That's right, It's just time. For me. It was just

809
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 1: time where I was like, ah, I'm seeing what's going

810
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: on in my mind written down on a piece of paper.

811
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: And there was this interesting effect of like when you're

812
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: disassociated from the thoughts going in your mind physically, it

813
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 1: was a really interesting way to see, like, this is

814
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: an interesting like look at the way my thoughts were

815
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: bouncing around here, written down on a piece of paper.

816
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,439
Speaker 1: That's cool. On to the next thing, you know. And

817
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: doing that every day for a couple of weeks, I

818
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: found was making me much more mindful of I could

819
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: pay attention to the talk track going on inside of

820
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 1: my head. And once that happens for me, it was

821
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: a you know, between meditation, drilling, whatever. Amazing for me

822
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 1: to see the way that my mind speaks to me,

823
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: you know, when you're not paying attention to that it's

824
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 1: for me. It was quite surprising, Like, I, this is

825
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: not how I would talk to other people. Why am

826
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 1: I talking to myself like this?

827
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 2: You know, you just induced a flashback for me from

828
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 2: about thirty years ago when I was in Cambodia.

829
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 3: I was I was backpacking.

830
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: I got really sick in Cambodia. I love it there.

831
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was amazing place. Particularly Actually it would have

832
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 2: been thirty years ago and I was in I was

833
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:51,919
Speaker 2: in rural Cambodia. I but had gone to battom Bang

834
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 2: and I wanted to go and visit this temple that

835
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 2: i'd read a bike and I had a guy take

836
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:58,399
Speaker 2: me on the back of a motorbike out to this

837
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 2: temple and walked up to the top of the temple

838
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 2: and there was a monk there, a female monk, and

839
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 2: you know that we started chatting through the guy who

840
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 2: take me, who spoke from English, and turns out she

841
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 2: was there meditating for a month and she would just

842
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 2: go down to get Brice and and and to spend

843
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 2: the whole day in the in the temple meditating. And

844
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 2: I actually said, you know, I asked for some advice

845
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,839
Speaker 2: because at the time I was trying to do a

846
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 2: form of meditation called no mind meditation, where you just

847
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 2: completely empty your mind. And I was Robbie shut at right,

848
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 2: I couldn't get past three seconds. And I told told

849
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 2: the guy, and then he explained to her, and then

850
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:44,240
Speaker 2: she just started laughing, like this belly laugh.

851
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 3: I thought that this was hilarious. And then she.

852
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 2: Said to him, and through him, she said, don't worry

853
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 2: about that. She says, you can't do that. You just

854
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 2: need to become the watcher.

855
00:40:58,600 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great.

856
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 2: And and what you talked about that that stream of

857
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 2: consciousness is just about being the watcher. Is that self

858
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 2: awareness of what's happening in your in your own mind,

859
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 2: because I think without that, people just get hooked with

860
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 2: this stream of consciousness, right, and it just takes them

861
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:21,720
Speaker 2: to all sorts of of sometimes on helpful places. Let's

862
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 2: switch over, so we talked about some of the personal stuff.

863
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 2: Let's talk about a few tactics that you have in

864
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 2: terms of your your workplace right for enjoying your day

865
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 2: to day work more, whether it's progressing faster or speeding

866
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:37,800
Speaker 2: up your decision making.

867
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 3: Give it.

868
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 2: Give our listeners a couple of the tactics that you

869
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 2: talk about the book in the book in order to

870
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 2: get that more enjoyment out of your work.

871
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: Sure, let's go like in rough order the book. I'll

872
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: give you a sampling from the first third and a

873
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: sampling from the middle third, and that like they'll give

874
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,720
Speaker 1: you a sense, and it's ordered this way on purpose.

875
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 1: You know, the meat of the book is how to

876
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 1: enjoy your job more. That's kind of the middle third.

877
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 1: But the challenge it is that stuff's a little bit

878
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 1: more self reflective. And we'll talk about it in a second.

879
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 1: Makes sense that you have to do a bit of

880
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: self reflection there and people will tell you if you

881
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,839
Speaker 1: want to improve, like focus on yourself to start. It's

882
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 1: very hard to do that job off the side of

883
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 1: your desk. And the reason we have challenges with that

884
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 1: is not that we're incapable. We don't have time. And

885
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 1: so the first third of the book basically titled you

886
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: know how to do five days of work in four

887
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 1: without working until midnight. And it's all about But.

888
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 2: I think you've not just cooked everybody who's listening to this.

889
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 1: Right, So the whole idea is you first have to

890
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 1: create some space and then you can create some change. Right.

891
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: And the surprising thing is creating the space is not

892
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,280
Speaker 1: as shockingly hard as it might sound. And there's basically

893
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 1: three things we cover in the first third. Miscommunications, decision making,

894
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 1: and prioritization. These are the three biggest things in my

895
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 1: experience that slow you down at work. Right, You get

896
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 1: in miscommunications and they wind up being very costly for you.

897
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 1: Decision Making you sit around waiting for a decision or

898
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: a meeting after meeting after meeting after meeting, trying to

899
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 1: get to a decision. Prioritization. You have a never ending

900
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: to do list, so you finish your work for the week.

901
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:15,800
Speaker 1: You don't even know what that means, and there's already

902
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: more work and you're doing it and you're working like crazy. Right,

903
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 1: how do you prioritize effectively? Which you know means saying no?

904
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 1: So we could pick any one of those tactics. Does

905
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 1: one kind of jump out at us the problem you

906
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: want to dive into.

907
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 2: I reckon fuck Now, they all jump out at me

908
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 2: and I can see how all of them and become

909
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,879
Speaker 2: real issues for people. So you just pick your fever.

910
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: I love them all, but I'm a huge nerd about

911
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 1: decision making, so maybe i'd pick that. There's two chapters

912
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 1: dedicated to decision making in the book, Faster decisions and

913
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 1: better decisions, but faster decisions. Let's like, we'll play a

914
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: bit of a game. Okay. There's a common thinking that

915
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 1: the bigger company gets, the slower the decision making is

916
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 1: going to be. Okay, I'm going to tell you some

917
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 1: things about a company, and you're going to try to

918
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 1: guess how quickly they can make decisions. And I'll give

919
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 1: you bonus points to count for nothing if you can

920
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 1: guess who the company is. Cool.

921
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 2: I've got to guess they actually name of the company.

922
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:15,399
Speaker 1: You don't have to, but i'll give you bonus points.

923
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,800
Speaker 1: Not okay, cool? Okay, So the company is four hundred

924
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: thousand people, okay, over one hundred and seventy five billion

925
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: dollars in budgets. They've got long term objectives, so they

926
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: can't learn from their mistakes over time. The stakes are

927
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: very high. A bad decision will kill somebody right the highest.

928
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 1: They have no chat, no email, and no cell phones

929
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: to make communications quicker as they have to make decisions

930
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 1: in the workplace, How quickly do you think that company

931
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: that I just describe, which is a real company, what's

932
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 1: their average decision time? And again, if you can guess

933
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: who it is bonus points.

934
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 2: They've no chat, they've no email, they have no phones

935
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,320
Speaker 2: like no cell phones. I reckon their decision time is

936
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 2: actually reasonably quick because it's not all this back and

937
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,720
Speaker 2: forth and back and forth and waiting for some person.

938
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 2: So I actually suspect that their decision making is actually

939
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:18,959
Speaker 2: quicker than companies that have them all of this different technology,

940
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 2: just because of what I've seen in the workplace. So

941
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 2: are you talking big decisions life or death?

942
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: That's right, we got to invest billions of dollars that

943
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 1: could result in killing people. The biggest decisions you can.

944
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 2: Make, right, let's just say for those big decisions, maybe

945
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:37,839
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks.

946
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 1: One day, one day, Wow, you want to guess who

947
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 1: it is?

948
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:47,240
Speaker 3: Something maybe ock the hell? But they don't have phones.

949
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,959
Speaker 2: I would have said NASA, or I would have yeah,

950
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 2: something to do with aeral space.

951
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: I have played this game with so many people, I

952
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: can't keep track. You are the first person who has

953
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 1: gone NASA boom. Really it's nineteen sixties NASA, and it's

954
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,320
Speaker 1: the the team that sent people to the moon. Okay.

955
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: And so when I go into work with teams, we

956
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 1: talk about, hey, we want to try to speed up

957
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: decision making. You know, a couple of weeks feels fast.

958
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: A couple of weeks is unbelievably slow. And I'll say, hey,

959
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 1: we can make decisions faster here. Our decisions are too complicated.

960
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 1: Are they more complicated than sending a human being to

961
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 1: the moon and back with a computer less powerful than

962
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:29,240
Speaker 1: your watch?

963
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:29,839
Speaker 2: Well?

964
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: No, they're not. Okay, Well, our decisions are too risky.

965
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: Are they riskier than sending a human being to the

966
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:40,240
Speaker 1: moon and back with a computer less powerful than your No? Okay,

967
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 1: you know, well we have really big budgets and cross

968
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 1: functional teams. Are there more than four hundred thousand people

969
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,320
Speaker 1: and two hundred billion dollars involved right now? No? NASA

970
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 1: could do it in the nineteen sixties. We can do it.

971
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,319
Speaker 1: And so the question is why are we slowing down?

972
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: And the interesting thing for me is I'm a giant

973
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 1: decision making or like I said, you unpack this thing.

974
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,840
Speaker 1: It's like, why is it happening? We're actually building teams

975
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: that is inherently slowing down our decision making. We just

976
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 1: don't realize it. And the moment you realize it, the

977
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 1: light bulb goes off and you can speed it up.

978
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 1: I'm going to give people one sentence. They're not going

979
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 1: to believe me that it will speed it up, but

980
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 1: it will when they try it tomorrow at the office. Okay.

981
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 1: And this is the more people that we put on

982
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 1: a team, the more diversity that we look for in

983
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 1: those people, the more likely we are to disagree. And

984
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:33,280
Speaker 1: human beings, to a brand about tribes earlier, are hardwired

985
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: to agree with each other. It is very hard to disagree.

986
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 1: You'll hear this when you hear people talking about decisions. Paul,

987
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 1: can you agree to this?

988
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 3: Paul?

989
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 1: Can I get your agreement on this? What needs to

990
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 1: be true to get the room to agree. We don't

991
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 1: need agreement. The better we disagree, the faster we decide.

992
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: Seems like an obvious statement, but when we all agree

993
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 1: with something, we just do the thing that we all

994
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:02,760
Speaker 1: agree to and it doesn't take long to make that decision.

995
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 1: The decisions that take time are the ones that we

996
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 1: don't agree on. And so instead of spending all this

997
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 1: time thinking about how do we agree more, how do

998
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: we get Paul to agree with this? Instead, let's focus

999
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,919
Speaker 1: our energy on, well, how do we disagree better? Can't

1000
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 1: it be true that I have to make a decision

1001
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: and Paul doesn't agree with me, and I can decide

1002
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: and we can get moving. And so the thing that

1003
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:25,800
Speaker 1: we're looking for, what great teams can do, what NASA

1004
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 1: can do, what the fastest moving companies today can do,

1005
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:32,920
Speaker 1: is they aren't looking for agreement, They're building alignment.

1006
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, consensus is now necessary to make decisions, right, Not.

1007
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:41,759
Speaker 1: Only is it not necessarily, I think there are a

1008
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 1: very small subset of decisions that might need consensus. Otherwise

1009
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 1: I think it's one of the worst ways to make

1010
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 1: a decision because to get to consensus is basically the

1011
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 1: antithesis of diversity. It shouldn't be true that we get

1012
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: a group of people who think differently and yet arrive

1013
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 1: at the same conclusion every time. Then we don't have

1014
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 1: a group of diverse thinkers. We just say we do.

1015
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 1: And if we build a team for diversity and we

1016
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 1: force them to agree all the time. We're wasting all

1017
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 1: the time and energy we spent trying to build a

1018
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 1: diverse team in the first place, we might as well

1019
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 1: have how large of this team. But the case for

1020
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 1: diversity is pretty ironclad. You know, a more diverse team

1021
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 1: produces better business outcomes. It's like been shown over and

1022
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:21,240
Speaker 1: over and over again.

1023
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 3: And an interesting observation on there.

1024
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 2: Having worked with lots of different leadership teams and I

1025
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 2: run like full day sessions on high performance teams, what

1026
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 2: I tend to find I don't know if you have

1027
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 2: noticed this, either in your experience or your research, in

1028
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 2: that leadership teams who get on very well individually and

1029
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:45,800
Speaker 2: have been around for a while and like each other socially,

1030
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 2: I tend to find that they are the worst at

1031
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 2: making decisions because they don't like conflict. They don't want

1032
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 2: to disagree and yeah, and that.

1033
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 3: Conflict for them becomes a dirty word.

1034
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 2: Where I said to him, people, you're running a business here,

1035
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:05,919
Speaker 2: You're not running a kombya loving It's like you're paid

1036
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 2: to make decisions and you're paid to actually have productive conflict.

1037
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:14,799
Speaker 2: I think that is something that is missing, is this

1038
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 2: idea of productive conflict where you passionately to be a ideas.

1039
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 3: You play the ball, you don't play the individual.

1040
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:25,839
Speaker 2: But then you have to come to decisions.

1041
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 1: You play the ball to a point, right, and that's

1042
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 1: the challenge, right, And I think that I agree with

1043
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: you completely. What we want is we want the conflict

1044
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 1: out in the open. We don't want it to be well,

1045
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 1: I don't agree with this, but I'm not going to

1046
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 1: have the conflict. I'm just gonna run around behind the scenes.

1047
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:44,359
Speaker 2: And slowly and sabotage behind the scenes.

1048
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 3: That's right.

1049
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 1: And you may not do that on purpose, but you know,

1050
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:49,839
Speaker 1: confirmation bias is a real thing. You have a thing

1051
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 1: in your head. I don't think this is right. As

1052
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: soon as you think that thought, you're not going to

1053
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 1: try necessarily to sabotage it, but you're not fully supporting it,

1054
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: and therefore you're kind of shooting it in the foot.

1055
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 2: So if you think, I think, sorry, there's a just

1056
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 2: to clarify that for me, there's a continuum of sabotage.

1057
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 2: There's this soft sabotage where you're actually not supporting it,

1058
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 2: and then there's the act of sabritage.

1059
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 1: That's fair. Yeah, absolutely, you know I'm going to make

1060
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 1: sure that Paul's decision blows up in his face and

1061
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 1: he goes down to a flaming ball of you know,

1062
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:22,239
Speaker 1: non glory, like that's not that would go back to

1063
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:24,279
Speaker 1: the values question and whether that would be the right

1064
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:25,439
Speaker 1: human being on your team.

1065
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 2: And the soft sabotage is just not being committed, not

1066
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:30,919
Speaker 2: being fully committed, right.

1067
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 1: And that word is that word is the most important

1068
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 1: you know, committed, And I think it's I don't need

1069
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 1: to agree with your decision to commit correct, right, And

1070
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: so I'll give you the tactic, and I'll give you

1071
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 1: one for bonus because you brought up the word committed

1072
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 1: and it's it's the big like buzzer, the buzzer word

1073
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 1: for me on this one. The challenge with disagreeing is

1074
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 1: we don't know who we're disagreeing with and who gets

1075
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:55,840
Speaker 1: to decide that we disagree And this seems so obvious,

1076
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:59,320
Speaker 1: but the simple tactic here is before you debate any decision,

1077
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:04,360
Speaker 1: decide who decides. And all you need to do is

1078
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 1: if you're like a you can be a leader in

1079
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: the company, you can be an intern in the company.

1080
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:12,799
Speaker 1: Listen for a decision. The vast majority of times that

1081
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: you hear a decision brought up on your team at

1082
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 1: your company. The next thing you'll hear is a debate

1083
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:21,279
Speaker 1: about which of the options we can choose. But when

1084
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 1: we do that, we haven't first reconciled. How will we

1085
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 1: reconcile a disagreement? Oh, this is going to be Paul's decision. Great,

1086
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 1: now let's go crazy, because Paul's going to listen. He's

1087
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:33,439
Speaker 1: going to tell us when he's hurd enough, and he's

1088
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 1: the one who's going to say, I know there are

1089
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 1: three options. I'm picking auption number one and this is why,

1090
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: and here we go. Or we're going to say a

1091
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 1: week next Friday, we're going to take a vote, No problem, right,

1092
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 1: We're going to debate this thing like crazy until a

1093
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 1: week next friday, until we all put up our hands.

1094
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 1: I know, yay, whatever however you want to vote and

1095
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 1: that the decision is done. But without that, we assume

1096
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 1: we have to have consensus. And what that turns into

1097
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,319
Speaker 1: is me trying to convince Paul that I'm right, rather

1098
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 1: than me giving Paul the context that I have that

1099
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:04,280
Speaker 1: he doesn't to improve his decision. Whatever it is, Okay,

1100
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 1: so decide who decides. Listen for your decisions decide who decides,

1101
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 1: That by itself will speed up your decisions significantly. We

1102
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 1: won't go into the research too much, but there's a

1103
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 1: lot of research out there. What it shows is the

1104
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 1: average person is wasting one full business day every single

1105
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 1: week because of slow decision making on their team.

1106
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 3: Fucking hell.

1107
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:26,399
Speaker 1: Okay, So you don't need to change how you work.

1108
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 1: You don't need to, You don't need to like become

1109
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 1: some productivity guru. Just speed up decision making on your

1110
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:34,760
Speaker 1: team and it will save you up to a full

1111
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 1: day of loss productivity every single week. Decide who decides

1112
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 1: will get like eighty percent of the way there.

1113
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 3: That's cool, shit, love it. Okay, what we got next?

1114
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 1: Okay, So we were talking about I enjoying the job more. Okay, yes, okay,

1115
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 1: so this one again, I kind of like, you know,

1116
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: a little bit agitating with the book on purpose, like

1117
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 1: you say the thing, and then there's a lot of pushback. Okay,

1118
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: if you enjoy your job more, it's going to lead

1119
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 1: to better outcomes for you. Fantastic sounds great. Number one

1120
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 1: pushback I hear is I have no time for that.

1121
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:15,319
Speaker 1: I can't enjoy my job more. I got too many

1122
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 1: things to do. My boss told me I have to

1123
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 1: do X y Z. What are you telling me? Like, sure,

1124
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:22,440
Speaker 1: I'd love to be playing the piano right now, but

1125
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 1: that's not what my job needs. The first point I

1126
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 1: like to make is enjoyment and fun are not the

1127
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:34,759
Speaker 1: same words. Okay, fun is always enjoyable. Enjoyment is not

1128
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 1: always fun. Example, if you're a runner, you go for

1129
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 1: a run, you're doing a marathon, you're on the last mile.

1130
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:45,280
Speaker 1: That's probably not fun in that moment, but you enjoy

1131
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:49,240
Speaker 1: the run. Professionally, when I've been enjoying my job the most,

1132
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 1: it's not usually when I recognize that joy in the moment.

1133
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:54,759
Speaker 1: I think back to a time when I'm like, the

1134
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 1: team was cranking on a problem up against the tight deadline.

1135
00:54:57,400 --> 00:54:59,480
Speaker 1: We were all going in the same direction. It felt great,

1136
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:01,400
Speaker 1: but it was very challenging, stressed out if we're going

1137
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,279
Speaker 1: to hit it. But you're like, this is what I

1138
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:06,840
Speaker 1: enjoy personally about work. Okay, So that's kind of the

1139
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:08,839
Speaker 1: first thought there is, Like, it's not the same as fun.

1140
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 1: We're not aiming for fun. We're aiming for like enjoyment overall.

1141
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:14,799
Speaker 2: And the way that I throw it, can I throw

1142
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 2: a word at you there. Yeah, just as you're describing that,

1143
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 2: the word that's popping into my head is being engaged.

1144
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:26,799
Speaker 1: Engaged is another word, for sure. You play around with

1145
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 1: the words and like, do you want to pick engaged?

1146
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:30,960
Speaker 1: Do you want to pick enjoyed? You know, I have

1147
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 1: found ways to engage myself in things that I don't

1148
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 1: think contribute to my well being because I'm stubborn and

1149
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 1: crazy and want to accomplish things. And so I picked

1150
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 1: enjoyment because it is one that I think, you know,

1151
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:45,800
Speaker 1: I wanted something that was viscerverall around. It's important to

1152
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 1: me to enjoy this process because I don't know what

1153
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 1: the outcome is going to be. But engage is a

1154
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 1: word that's often thrown around in the workplace.

1155
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:56,799
Speaker 2: Obviously, we'll run with and run with the enjoyment, So

1156
00:55:57,160 --> 00:55:58,399
Speaker 2: give us the tactic care.

1157
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:01,440
Speaker 1: Okay, So the idea here is you don't have to

1158
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,359
Speaker 1: change what you do. You just need to think about

1159
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 1: changing how you do it. And this sounds again a

1160
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 1: little bit out there, but if you stop and think

1161
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 1: about the way that we plan, either on teams or

1162
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:15,880
Speaker 1: as individuals, what you'll realize is the vast majority of

1163
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:20,240
Speaker 1: the time we spend thinking about work is talking about what,

1164
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 1: what's the objective we need to hit, What does the

1165
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 1: GAN chart look like? What are the specific things that

1166
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 1: need to be accomplished. We don't spend a lot of

1167
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 1: time talking about how do we want it to feel

1168
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:34,400
Speaker 1: while we're accomplishing these things, how do we want to

1169
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:37,840
Speaker 1: get there? Right? If I'm thinking about going to a restaurant,

1170
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 1: I open up Google Maps, I type in the location.

1171
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 1: I can walk, I can take public transit, I can

1172
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 1: drive if I'm driving, I can avoid tolls. I can

1173
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 1: take the scenic route. Gives you options, all of them.

1174
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 1: Get me there. We spend all of our time talking

1175
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,719
Speaker 1: about what, and not a lot talking about how and so.

1176
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 1: Once people tell me like well, I can't just change

1177
00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 1: my job, that's exactly the point. Don't change job, just

1178
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 1: change how you do it. You got two people, you

1179
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 1: and me. Right, let's say the task is, hypothetically, you

1180
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 1: got to deliver a report on a project to the

1181
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 1: team at the end of the week. I like presentations,

1182
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 1: you like data analysis. My version is going to be

1183
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:17,800
Speaker 1: talk to some folks on the team, put together an

1184
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,439
Speaker 1: awesome PowerPoint slide, get into the meeting with the team,

1185
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:23,440
Speaker 1: stand up, deliver a kick ass presentation. I hope and

1186
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 1: people are going to love. It's going to go great.

1187
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 1: Your version is going to be do a bunch of analysis,

1188
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 1: crunch it in an Excel spreadsheet. Send an email to

1189
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 1: the team before the meeting is saying please have a

1190
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 1: read through this, come to the meeting with them. Any

1191
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:37,960
Speaker 1: questions you have, they come with the questions, you answer them.

1192
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 1: We both accomplish the same job, but if I did

1193
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:42,840
Speaker 1: it your way or you did it by way, we'd

1194
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:45,640
Speaker 1: be miserable at it. So the tactic is take some

1195
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 1: time away from what not A lot ten percent wants

1196
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 1: you to figure out what needs to be accomplished and

1197
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 1: think about your best practice. I hate to turn best

1198
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 1: practice in general, because best for whom what's best for

1199
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:03,720
Speaker 1: me with the presentation isn't what's best for you. And

1200
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:07,080
Speaker 1: that the job all I'll kind of give people that

1201
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:09,280
Speaker 1: they can try at home. It is a fun exercise.

1202
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:12,800
Speaker 1: Is you get a piece of paper and you're going

1203
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:16,240
Speaker 1: to write down on the left hand column. So you

1204
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:19,120
Speaker 1: want to you're picturing the piece of paper sitting down,

1205
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 1: you know, landscape mode. You're gonna write down on the

1206
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:24,560
Speaker 1: left half of the piece of paper a list of

1207
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 1: the activities at work that you enjoy. Not a giant list,

1208
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:30,960
Speaker 1: but like it's probably going to be five, six, seven,

1209
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 1: eight things. You know, I really like brainstorming with my team,

1210
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 1: I really like crunching data and Excel spreadsheet, I really

1211
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 1: like giving presentations. Whatever it might be that you enjoy

1212
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:42,440
Speaker 1: doing these things. They give you energy when you do them. Okay,

1213
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 1: Then on the right side of the piece of paper,

1214
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:48,439
Speaker 1: open up your calendar, look at last week, and write

1215
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 1: down a list of the activities you actually did, and

1216
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 1: when you're done, draw a line from the things you

1217
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 1: enjoy on the left to the corresponding activities that you

1218
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 1: actually did. In the vast majority of cases, you will

1219
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 1: have almost no lines, and then you will wonder why

1220
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:07,479
Speaker 1: I don't enjoy my job day.

1221
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 2: To day cause you're not doing the stuff thriving.

1222
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 1: It's so simple. But if you want to enjoy your

1223
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 1: job more, do more jobs you enjoy, but you have

1224
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 1: to take the time to do it. And so the

1225
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 1: solution there is, once you have this piece of paper,

1226
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 1: anytime you're given a new task that you need to accomplish,

1227
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:26,439
Speaker 1: take it out and think about a way to get

1228
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:28,840
Speaker 1: it done using one or more of the items from

1229
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 1: that list, I have to give an update to the team.

1230
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 1: I really enjoy presentations. I'm going to give a presentation

1231
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:38,240
Speaker 1: to the team, right, and just taking a hot second

1232
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 1: to run through your list of these are activities I

1233
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 1: know I really enjoy and finding a way to accomplish

1234
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:46,560
Speaker 1: whatever is already on your to do list. Leveraging one

1235
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 1: or more of those activities is going to result in

1236
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:52,440
Speaker 1: you enjoying your day to day more. And when you

1237
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:54,920
Speaker 1: enjoy your day to day more, you're going to enjoy

1238
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:58,240
Speaker 1: your job more overall as well. Small change, big impact.

1239
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 2: And I think for anybody who you send this listening

1240
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:02,880
Speaker 2: out there, and I know there are quite a lot

1241
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 2: of them who are a leader, this is about giving

1242
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:09,200
Speaker 2: your team members of autonomy. Oh do this with your

1243
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 2: team for Yeah, it's like give them autonomy of how

1244
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 2: they do their job. Because what you're essentially saying is

1245
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:20,360
Speaker 2: taking autonomy, right, is having having a say or control

1246
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:22,560
Speaker 2: of how you get your job done.

1247
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 3: And that's what it should be. It's like, I just

1248
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:26,960
Speaker 3: want to get it done. You do it.

1249
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:29,640
Speaker 2: However it's best suited to you.

1250
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:31,760
Speaker 1: Right If you're a leader and you go to your

1251
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:34,280
Speaker 1: team and you tell them, you ask them you run

1252
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:36,880
Speaker 1: them through the exercise I just described, and they see

1253
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 1: you taking an interest in their enjoyment at the office

1254
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 1: is going to build unbelievable trust. If you're on the

1255
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:46,320
Speaker 1: other side. Okay, a leader has a boss as well.

1256
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 1: And again some common pushback here is like, well, my

1257
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 1: boss won't let me do it that way, and that

1258
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:53,800
Speaker 1: will be true in that'll be true in some cases.

1259
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:56,880
Speaker 1: I think if your boss is such a micromanager that

1260
01:00:56,920 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 1: they're breathing down your neck and they're literally dictating every

1261
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 1: every single thing you do and the exact way in

1262
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:05,240
Speaker 1: which you do all of those things, that might not

1263
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 1: be the right environment for you if you want autonomy.

1264
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 1: But in most cases, you know, let's say that my

1265
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:13,240
Speaker 1: boss gives me a job. I got to give the

1266
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 1: project update at the end of the week. I'd like

1267
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: to do it with a presentation. I want to have

1268
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 1: that conversation with my boss. Hey, what would need to

1269
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:23,840
Speaker 1: be true for me to accomplish this with a presentation?

1270
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:26,200
Speaker 1: And the wording there is very specific, not can I

1271
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:29,480
Speaker 1: what would need to be true for me to do

1272
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:32,480
Speaker 1: it this way? And they might say, you know, I

1273
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 1: need to make sure, I need you to make sure

1274
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:35,280
Speaker 1: that this thing, and this thing and this thing is

1275
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:37,760
Speaker 1: included in your presentation. No problem, I can do that,

1276
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:40,440
Speaker 1: They might say, Jay, I really need you to do

1277
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:42,439
Speaker 1: it in a spreadsheet this time. It's just the way

1278
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 1: that it needs to happen in this particular case. And

1279
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:47,640
Speaker 1: you know what in that Noha, no foul, you're going

1280
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 1: to have to do it the way that your boss

1281
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 1: wants you to do it. But what you've done is

1282
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 1: you planted the seed that you're thinking about this. And

1283
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:57,200
Speaker 1: I guarantee you, if they're a halfway reasonable manager, you

1284
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 1: have that conversation two or three more times, you're going

1285
01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 1: to start getting the ability to doing to do the

1286
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 1: jobs more in the way that you're going to enjoy more.

1287
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 1: You have to open that conversation with your manager and

1288
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 1: they're not going to figure it out for you.

1289
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:14,560
Speaker 2: Hence the exercise like it, let's very sae its advice

1290
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 2: and so sorry, we are running out of time, but

1291
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 2: they the one from the last third of the book

1292
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 2: and give us one on that.

1293
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:28,040
Speaker 1: H quickly is tough. So that one's you know, better

1294
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:32,080
Speaker 1: decisions feedback and what would need to basically how to

1295
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:35,960
Speaker 1: see opportunities everyone else misses. That's like put that chapter last,

1296
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 1: because it's a it's a life changer for me. How

1297
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:40,680
Speaker 1: much time do we have? Do I have to give

1298
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:41,880
Speaker 1: you this forty second version?

1299
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, you can give me the three

1300
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:44,439
Speaker 2: or four minute version.

1301
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 1: Now I'll give you the three or four minute version.

1302
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:50,440
Speaker 1: Most impactful question I've ever learned in my life. If

1303
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 1: you're you know, a physics person, this single question is

1304
01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:57,360
Speaker 1: the root of all the other tactics in the book.

1305
01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 1: We've already talked about it a little bit. The like

1306
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:03,200
Speaker 1: short version of the story here is I had just

1307
01:03:03,240 --> 01:03:06,160
Speaker 1: started Airbnb and crashed a company. I had produced a

1308
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:08,320
Speaker 1: plan on what we were going to do. My original

1309
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:10,800
Speaker 1: job there was to lead growth in Canada back before

1310
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:14,080
Speaker 1: anyone knew what Airbnb was, and put together this plan.

1311
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 1: I worked on it really hard because my confidence was

1312
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:16,640
Speaker 1: in the gutter.

1313
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:17,440
Speaker 3: You know.

1314
01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:19,520
Speaker 1: I really wanted to impress everybody, and I wanted to

1315
01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:22,720
Speaker 1: impress myself that I wasn't a failure. YadA, YadA, YadA.

1316
01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:24,560
Speaker 1: I fly down to San Francisco with this plan. I

1317
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:28,000
Speaker 1: worked really hard on present it to the team there.

1318
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:31,200
Speaker 1: One of the leaders. Nobody says anything while I'm presenting,

1319
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 1: which is like deeply uncomfortable for me. By the way,

1320
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:35,160
Speaker 1: I like some kind of like is this landing? What's

1321
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:37,680
Speaker 1: going on here? Like feedback I get at the end

1322
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 1: is this is a great plan. Jay, we want you

1323
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:42,160
Speaker 1: to do ten times a result with ten percent more budget.

1324
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:46,960
Speaker 1: Laptops close, everybody leaves. Okay, I'm upside out. Like they

1325
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:48,960
Speaker 1: told me it was great, that's fun, But then they

1326
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:52,440
Speaker 1: said do ten times better. Like hard for me to

1327
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:54,320
Speaker 1: think of me being great when I'm off by an

1328
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 1: order of magnitude, Like okay, let's put that aside for

1329
01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:00,520
Speaker 1: a second. Then it's like ten X, Like I'm going

1330
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:03,920
Speaker 1: to relatively you know, aggressive individual like we could hit

1331
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:06,920
Speaker 1: ten X if you give me like eight times more

1332
01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:09,800
Speaker 1: budget or five times more budget, like ten percent more

1333
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:13,640
Speaker 1: budget ten X impossible. I'm spun around. I'm upside down,

1334
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 1: going through orientation the whole time. I'm down on the trip.

1335
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 1: I'm flying home, and I decide, you know what, if

1336
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:19,920
Speaker 1: I'm going to fail, I'm going to go down in

1337
01:04:20,120 --> 01:04:24,120
Speaker 1: big blazing ball of glory, like I'm going to suspend

1338
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 1: my disbelief for a second. And I asked, what would

1339
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:32,440
Speaker 1: need to be true to ten X with only ten

1340
01:04:32,480 --> 01:04:35,959
Speaker 1: percent more budget? And I had already done the job

1341
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:39,120
Speaker 1: of listing all the reasons in my head why I

1342
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 1: can't be done right. You know as well as I do.

1343
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:44,480
Speaker 1: Our brains have a negativity bias. It's really easy to

1344
01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:46,480
Speaker 1: like find the ways why something's not going to happen,

1345
01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:49,800
Speaker 1: what would need to be true for this thing to happen.

1346
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:53,280
Speaker 1: And when I did that, I kind of flipped the

1347
01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:56,400
Speaker 1: plan around a little bit. The team I worked with

1348
01:04:56,440 --> 01:05:00,000
Speaker 1: didn't change. I didn't get appreciably smarter. I just asked

1349
01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:04,200
Speaker 1: different question. Within ten X we got really close, and

1350
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:08,080
Speaker 1: the really uncomfortable learning for me was given that I've

1351
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:10,480
Speaker 1: never asked this question in my life. Have I been

1352
01:05:10,560 --> 01:05:13,400
Speaker 1: underachieving by an order of magnitude up until this moment?

1353
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:18,280
Speaker 1: And the inescapable answer was like yes. And so the

1354
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:20,360
Speaker 1: tactic here is we're always looking to try to see

1355
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:22,680
Speaker 1: opportunities other people are missing. You have that one person

1356
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:24,600
Speaker 1: in your office, like, how the heck has that person

1357
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:27,600
Speaker 1: seen that thing all the time? Like they're incredible, it's systematic.

1358
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:29,960
Speaker 1: And what you can do is you listen for a

1359
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:33,640
Speaker 1: trigger and you ask a question. It's a relatively simple approach.

1360
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:38,680
Speaker 1: The challenge is when someone says can't or won't possibility

1361
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:43,000
Speaker 1: statements right, or you think can't or won't, Confirmation bias

1362
01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:45,680
Speaker 1: kicks in and your brain will find all the reasons

1363
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:47,880
Speaker 1: why that statement is true. It can't be done for

1364
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 1: this reason, it can't be done for that reason.

1365
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:52,280
Speaker 3: When you hear camp and answer, I will just throw

1366
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:54,120
Speaker 3: in there. From a neuroscience perspective, not.

1367
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:57,000
Speaker 2: Only when you do that, but you will tend to

1368
01:05:57,120 --> 01:05:59,960
Speaker 2: dismiss or minimize information that disagree.

1369
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:01,080
Speaker 3: We love, is that right?

1370
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:04,960
Speaker 1: Confirmation bias is a frightening beast right, And it's so

1371
01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:06,920
Speaker 1: easy to fall into that trap. And what happens is

1372
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 1: we can't do it. Confirmation bias kicks in, we never

1373
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:13,480
Speaker 1: think to check, and we roll on past potentially a

1374
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:17,000
Speaker 1: really amazing opportunity. So what you do is you listen

1375
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:20,880
Speaker 1: for a possibility word, and you recognize that human beings

1376
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:24,280
Speaker 1: are using a possibility word when they mean feasibility. There's

1377
01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:29,120
Speaker 1: a huge difference between can't and shouldn't. Shouldn't is a

1378
01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:34,400
Speaker 1: strategic decision, that's a feasibility word. So when someone says

1379
01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:37,040
Speaker 1: can't or won't, or you think can't or won't, trigger

1380
01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:40,400
Speaker 1: yourself and immediately ask what would need to be true?

1381
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:43,600
Speaker 1: Don't talk to me about the reasons why can't. We're

1382
01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:46,080
Speaker 1: going to do that exercise in a minute. Let's just

1383
01:06:46,120 --> 01:06:49,240
Speaker 1: list out what would need to be true hypothetically if

1384
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:52,520
Speaker 1: this thing was possible. Oftentimes I find you write down

1385
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:55,360
Speaker 1: that list, it doesn't seem as scary, and if you

1386
01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:57,400
Speaker 1: don't know what step to take to try, you write

1387
01:06:57,440 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 1: down the list. And then for each item on the list,

1388
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:01,640
Speaker 1: let's say you write down three things that we need

1389
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:04,880
Speaker 1: to be true to accomplish this crazy sounding objective. For

1390
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:06,720
Speaker 1: each item on the list, if you think I can't

1391
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:09,480
Speaker 1: do these, there's that can't word again, and that's what

1392
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:12,439
Speaker 1: we need to be true. Break that thing out into

1393
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:14,320
Speaker 1: its component parts of what we need to be true,

1394
01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:17,560
Speaker 1: and continue that exercise until you hit a thing. You're

1395
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:20,919
Speaker 1: like that, I think I could do do that thing

1396
01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:24,160
Speaker 1: and see what happens. And what I've learned from this

1397
01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:27,040
Speaker 1: is there are huge opportunities sitting out there that I

1398
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:29,280
Speaker 1: never paid attention to because someone said can't or I

1399
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:31,440
Speaker 1: thought can't or won't or isn't going to work or

1400
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:35,360
Speaker 1: whatever what would need to be true? Suspend your disbelief

1401
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:38,240
Speaker 1: for a moment, run that chain all the way down

1402
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:40,120
Speaker 1: until you get it to a unit of work that

1403
01:07:40,240 --> 01:07:43,400
Speaker 1: you think you can accomplish, and do it, see what

1404
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:46,400
Speaker 1: happens from there, and you'll be shocked at the outcome

1405
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:49,840
Speaker 1: opportunities to start. Honestly, it sounds silly, but like falling

1406
01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:50,560
Speaker 1: out your feet.

1407
01:07:51,080 --> 01:07:54,960
Speaker 2: Man, you just summarized a whole heap of the best

1408
01:07:55,000 --> 01:07:58,560
Speaker 2: bits of motivational interviewing for health behavior change.

1409
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:00,480
Speaker 3: In that.

1410
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:03,520
Speaker 2: But I I what I really like is the way

1411
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:08,560
Speaker 2: that you you drill done into that. So you know

1412
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:11,120
Speaker 2: and in behavior to we asked about the you know,

1413
01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:13,840
Speaker 2: the five wise but that that what would need to

1414
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:17,400
Speaker 2: be true for me to lose this twenty kilos of

1415
01:08:17,400 --> 01:08:17,920
Speaker 2: weight loss?

1416
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:20,160
Speaker 3: Right? But then it's when you find the canton.

1417
01:08:20,320 --> 01:08:21,880
Speaker 2: So I need to be exercised, I need to be

1418
01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:24,280
Speaker 2: changing my diet, I need to be doing this consistently,

1419
01:08:24,320 --> 01:08:26,719
Speaker 2: sleep hygen, but I can't do that. Well, what would

1420
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:29,559
Speaker 2: need to be true for that to actually happen? I

1421
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:32,479
Speaker 2: like the way that that drills done in that.

1422
01:08:32,720 --> 01:08:35,559
Speaker 1: It is exactly based on the five wise concept. It's

1423
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:39,640
Speaker 1: just a rather than rather than pulling apart a problem.

1424
01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:41,760
Speaker 1: Why is this happening? Why is that happening? Why is

1425
01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:46,000
Speaker 1: this happening? It's breaking apart an opportunity. It's of it.

1426
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:47,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, I like it.

1427
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:48,559
Speaker 2: I really like it.

1428
01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:51,120
Speaker 3: Man, this has been has been awesome.

1429
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:58,599
Speaker 2: So the book is called The Grass Is Greener Grass. Yes, sorry,

1430
01:08:58,680 --> 01:08:59,839
Speaker 2: your grass is Greener.

1431
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:02,320
Speaker 1: In fact, if you google the Grass is Greener you

1432
01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:05,000
Speaker 1: will find a gardening book and that is not my book.

1433
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:07,240
Speaker 1: And it was an unintended consequence of the name that

1434
01:09:07,280 --> 01:09:09,960
Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't think about, so that's why I

1435
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:10,519
Speaker 1: corrected you.

1436
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:13,680
Speaker 2: Otherwise, you know, ah, yes, yes, and I like it

1437
01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:16,760
Speaker 2: Your grass is greener. And use what you have to

1438
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:19,559
Speaker 2: get what you want at work and in the life

1439
01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:24,120
Speaker 2: from Jason Silver. Jason has been awesome and anywhere else

1440
01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:27,880
Speaker 2: that we can send people, website, socials, any of that

1441
01:09:27,920 --> 01:09:28,599
Speaker 2: sort of stuff.

1442
01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 1: Pretty easy to find on LinkedIn, you know, put in

1443
01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:33,880
Speaker 1: Jason Silver. There are a couple of us, but you'll

1444
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:35,880
Speaker 1: figure it out relatively quickly. I'm the one with your

1445
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 1: Grasses Greener in the Airbnb have you And then if

1446
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:41,479
Speaker 1: you want to get in touch, read more about the book,

1447
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:45,280
Speaker 1: see what else I'm up to. The Jasonsilver dot Com

1448
01:09:45,400 --> 01:09:46,920
Speaker 1: is my website.

1449
01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, cool, awesome, great stuff, mate, Enjoy whatever is left

1450
01:09:52,360 --> 01:09:54,120
Speaker 2: in your evening in Toronto.

1451
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:57,240
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you, and thanks everybody who listened through

1452
01:09:57,280 --> 01:09:59,160
Speaker 1: all the way down here. I appreciate your time and

1453
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:00,800
Speaker 1: hope you got some impact out of it.

1454
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:02,559
Speaker 3: Oh man, no doubt, no doubt.

1455
01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:05,559
Speaker 2: People will get impact as long as they were actually

1456
01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:08,160
Speaker 2: focused on the podcast and not doing all the shit

1457
01:10:08,280 --> 01:10:09,080
Speaker 2: at the same time.

1458
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:12,960
Speaker 3: Right season. Thanks very much, thank you,