1 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:09,479 Speaker 1: Oh, strap in, That's all I can say. Strap in 2 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: because this is a doozy. This is an episode you 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: will not be able to pause, or get out of 4 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: the car or start doing something else. Tracy Hall one 5 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: of the last actual victim of Hamish McLaren and he 6 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: is the what do you call the source of a 7 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: podcast called who the Hell is Hamish? And it was 8 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: a huge podcast, like people were sending it to each other. 9 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: Listen to this, my god, this is Australian guys. 10 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 2: Happened in Australia. 11 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: Tracy is in that podcast. But she's now doing her 12 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: own press tour because she's written a book about herself 13 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: and her part. You will still probably want to buy 14 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: the bookcase I do. I want to know more about 15 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: this incredible woman, because she's not just the victim that 16 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: you think is the victim. I mean, no one is 17 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 1: the victim. But you think scammers, You think old people 18 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: on the phones, you know, who still have landlines like 19 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: you know, and media. Tracy touches on this media used 20 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: to make us think that way. You know, so many 21 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: people are being scammed these days in so many different ways. 22 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: The media has changed, and thank god it has. She 23 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: mentions that as well. 24 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 2: You will. 25 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 1: I think really love the questions that I ask because 26 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: she answers the things that I wanted to know. So 27 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: I asked her the things that I wanted to know 28 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: that I know you want to know as well. My 29 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: producer was the same, if we want to know these things, 30 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: you all want to know these things too, So please 31 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: enjoy it. 32 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 2: Let me know what you think. 33 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: Give her a follow on Instagram. Tracy Hall in the 34 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: show notes, we will have a link to her socials 35 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: or her book by the book, Why wouldn't you support 36 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: this beautiful person? 37 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 2: Here's Tracy Hall. Well, this is such an interesting story. 38 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: Like I just watched the documentary because I have a 39 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: podcast and I do two EPs a week. I don't 40 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts a lot because it's work, right, So 41 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: I am a more of a visual gal. And my 42 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: best friend, she is a podcast queen, and this was 43 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: one she really wanted me to listen to. 44 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 2: Who the Hell is Hamish? 45 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 1: And I did start it, and I must say it 46 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: was quite interesting, but like I said, I'm not that 47 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: into podcasts. So I was so excited when I saw 48 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: that Channel seven had done a documentary and you were 49 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: in it. So I want to start at the start, 50 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: and the documentary is about a man called Hamish McLaren. 51 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 2: You were his last victim. 52 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: Also just written a book which we're going to talk 53 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: about later, but let's start at the beginning. Here's a 54 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: con man and he swindled people out of money. You 55 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: were his last victim. When did you meet him? So? 56 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 3: I met a man by the name of Max Devita 57 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,119 Speaker 3: in early twenty sixteen on a dating app. I'd been 58 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 3: separated from my husband for about a year and I 59 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 3: thought I was ready to get back into the dating scene, 60 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 3: and you know, I wanted to meet someone to spend 61 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 3: some time with to you know, you know, someone that 62 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 3: had the same sort of ideas about life as me, 63 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 3: the same values and morals and like doing the same 64 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 3: things as me. And it was slim pickings, to be honest. 65 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 3: It was quite demoralizing in a lot of ways. And 66 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 3: of course, when you know, Max Devita showed up and 67 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 3: he had you know, a megawatt smile and National Geographic 68 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 3: blue eyes and great chat, great banter. We connected really 69 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 3: quickly and we built a relationship over the next sixteen months. 70 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 3: It was based on shared values and liking the same 71 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 3: things we loved the ocean, we loved running, and we 72 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 3: just sort of hung out and he told me he 73 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 3: was a chief financial officer for a family office in Sydney, 74 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 3: and I knew a little bit about what that was. 75 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 3: And then over the you know, over the next sixteen months, 76 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 3: we just sort of built built our relationship and it 77 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 3: was very you know, close, a very intimate relationship. 78 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 4: We were talking about our future. 79 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 3: The weekend before he was arrested, we were looking at 80 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 3: properties in Byron Bay, thinking about, you know, our what 81 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 3: the next ten years of our life might look like. 82 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,239 Speaker 3: And yes, so it was a pretty a pretty deep 83 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 3: relationship that by that point. And it was in July 84 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 3: twenty seventeen. I woke up one morning to a crime 85 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 3: stop his video online of a man being arrested outside 86 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 3: of his apartment in Bondai for swindling people out of 87 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 3: millions of dollars, and his face was blurred out. But 88 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 3: you know, there was not a shadow of a doubt 89 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 3: that that was my boyfriend, Max Devita. Except it wasn't 90 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 3: Max Devita, it was Hey Mish McClaren. 91 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: So you got a phone call from or did you 92 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: call the police to say that's my boyfriend? 93 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 3: What had actually happened was we'd just gotten back from 94 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 3: Byron Bay and I hadn't heard from him in about 95 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 3: twenty four hours, which was very, very unusual, and I 96 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 3: ended up after a very sleepless night and scouring the 97 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 3: internet looking for friends and family to connect with to 98 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 3: try and find out if something had happened. I ended 99 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 3: up very early the next morning calling Bondi Police and 100 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 3: asking them to do a wellness check on him, yep, 101 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 3: because I just knew something was wrong, and they were 102 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 3: off doing a wellness check on him, and a girlfriend 103 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 3: of mine sent me the link to the video and 104 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 3: that is when I found out that he'd been arrested. 105 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,239 Speaker 3: So that's obviously why he wasn't answering my calls. 106 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 2: So that was the crime Stop A video. 107 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 4: That was the crime Stop A video. 108 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 3: And I called back Bondi Police and I said, well, 109 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 3: you don't need to do a one's check on him 110 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 3: because he's not dead. He's been arrested. And they said, yes, 111 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 3: we know that now, but the name of the person 112 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 3: that you gave us, the address and his age, everything 113 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 3: you gave us about that man is not the man 114 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 3: that lives there. And I said, well, who is it 115 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 3: you know who who, like, who is this man? And 116 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 3: they said, we can't tell. You need to contact the 117 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 3: detectives working on the case. And that's when I spoke 118 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 3: to the head detective who had arrested him. And then 119 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 3: you know, the dealings with the police started at that point. 120 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 3: So I went up and spent pretty much the next 121 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 3: three weeks with the police unraveling the previous eighteen months 122 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 3: of my life. 123 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: Tracy, can I just first, I'm so sorry that this 124 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: has happened to you, like to anyone, but like, I'm 125 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: looking at a human, a beautiful woman who you know, 126 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: we were just talking off air quickly about your daughter, 127 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:00,359 Speaker 1: and so I'm assuming he knew your daughter, you're a 128 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 1: single mom. 129 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 3: Yes, of course, I mean after nearly eighteen months, he 130 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 3: definitely knew her. The relationship built quite slowly because I 131 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 3: didn't really want to infuse a new person in my life. 132 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 4: With most women died. 133 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: Yep, you have to learn, you have to earn that trust, 134 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: don't you, for a partner before you bring a child in, 135 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: which is the most appropriate way to do a relationship 136 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: I think in person. 137 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 2: And that would have been absolutely huge for you. 138 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was, and it took a long time for 139 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 3: me to introduce her. So the time that we spent together, 140 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 3: I guess it's fair to say, was fairly limited because 141 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 3: I have majority care of my daughter, so I would 142 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 3: see him when she was with her dad. But over 143 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 3: you know, eighteen months, that is a long time to 144 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 3: go out with somebody, And of course she would hear 145 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 3: him on the phone a lot because we would talk 146 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 3: all the time, and they built a bit of a 147 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 3: relationship through that, and then by kind of you know, 148 00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 3: the moving into over a year after we met and 149 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 3: started going out, we took family holidays up to Byron Babe. 150 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 3: My mom came along, like my mom came and stayed 151 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 3: with us. He met my family, So yeah, they did 152 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 3: have a relationship in the end, but it was mostly 153 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 3: it was a few holidays and then you know, the 154 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 3: rest of the time we spent together was religious when 155 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 3: I had that space, you know, on my own. So 156 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 3: it was funny actually, Eve because when Hamis she was 157 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 3: arrested and everything just fell apart around me. I made 158 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 3: a decision really early on that there'd be no tears 159 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 3: at the dinner table, okay, and that I wouldn't discuss 160 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 3: it with her. She was really young at the time, 161 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 3: she was like six or six and a half or something, 162 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 3: and it's very hard to explain a non compliant superinnuation 163 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 3: fund and a con man who swindled people out of 164 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 3: millions of dollars to a six year old. And I 165 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 3: didn't want to worry her and life had to go on, 166 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 3: you know, I didn't want for all the part and 167 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 3: you know, it's just me at home. 168 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 4: With her, so I just had to keep her ghost. 169 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, and a blessing in a sense because that kept 170 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 3: me going a lot of the time. But you know, 171 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 3: and I don't know if it was the right decision, 172 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 3: but it's kind of funny now in retrospect because we. 173 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 4: Just carried on. 174 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 3: There were no tears at the dinner table. And it 175 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 3: wasn't until about eight or nine months after he'd been 176 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 3: arrested that we were in the bathroom one night, you know, 177 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 3: doing the nightly shower routine, and she says to me, O, Mum, 178 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 3: we haven't heard from Max in a while, and I. 179 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 4: Just had a while. 180 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, yeah, he's just been really busy. Rabe 181 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 3: like it's so good. I think he's just been super busy. 182 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 3: And she's like okay, and she moved on. And that's 183 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 3: the joy of children, right, because they just they're so 184 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 3: tangled up in their own world. And of course she 185 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 3: was very young, and in that moment, I thought, oh, 186 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 3: I've done a pretty good job of hiding this. 187 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 2: That of protecting her. 188 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, you really did protect her, which you did a 189 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 1: really good job, because you know, a lot of people, 190 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:08,719 Speaker 1: we're just fallible people, but a lot of people are 191 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 1: selfish in that way that you know. Such great parents 192 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 1: are those ones who really do think about the ramifications 193 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: of something that may be so devastating, how that would 194 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 1: impact a child and trying to explain it or them 195 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: even just seeing you and really being quite fearful of 196 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: you reacting in certain ways. I want to just go 197 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: back to that moment that you found out and the 198 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: next ensuing three weeks, the betrayal that you must have felt, like, 199 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: can you just take me there to I mean, to 200 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: put it bluntly, you were sleeping with this man. You 201 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: were sleeping with the enemy. You gave him the most 202 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: intimate parts of yourself. You, I imagine, would tell him the 203 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: most intimate thing about yourself. You were vulnerable, you trusted him, 204 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: you relied on him in certain ways for certain things 205 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 1: depended on him. You thought he was a good guy, 206 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: You thought, you know, you'd found a really great person 207 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: to share a future with, and then you find out 208 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:26,239 Speaker 1: that he is a freaking sociopath. Like, I'm so freaking angry. 209 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: He just lies and lies and lies, like I can't 210 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: I can't understand. Can you take me there? What was 211 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: that like for you? 212 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 3: I mean, first of all, it was disbelief, because, like 213 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 3: you said, this is a man that you know, would 214 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 3: lie in bed next to me at night and when 215 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 3: I couldn't sleep, he would, you know, he would talk 216 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 3: to me until I fell asleep. We shared everything, and 217 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 3: I wholeheartedly believed that he had my best interests at heart. 218 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 3: And so to wake up one morning and find that 219 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 3: he's a not the person you think he is, that's 220 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 3: a very discombobulating thing for your brain to cope with, 221 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 3: because it was, you know, the person that I loved 222 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 3: and the person that I was building a future with, 223 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 3: and the person that I felt like was my person 224 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 3: and had my back and saw me actually didn't exist, 225 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 3: didn't exist, No. 226 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: Like, how do you compartmentalize that? As like, were you 227 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: a mess? Like you or you much? 228 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 2: Well? 229 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: I remember you saying in the docor you when you 230 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 1: spoke to the detective, like you had to go and vomit. 231 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 232 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 3: I felt a lot of physical reaction during during those 233 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 3: weeks and months afterwards. 234 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 4: I'm not a big person. 235 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 3: I'm a small framed person, and I lost six kilos 236 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 3: in three weeks. I could not eat, I could not sleep, 237 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:53,839 Speaker 3: I could not rest until I knew how it all 238 00:12:54,080 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 3: fit together. And I think in terms of compartmentalizing, it 239 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 3: was like a death. So the man that I loved 240 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 3: and the man that I was building my future with 241 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 3: died in that moment because he actually didn't really exist. 242 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:10,319 Speaker 4: In the first place. 243 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:11,839 Speaker 2: So he was dead and gone. 244 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 4: He was dead and gone. But it's weird and you 245 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:14,839 Speaker 4: actually grieve that. 246 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, there was grief around that, But then I felt 247 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 3: bad for grieving because it wasn't real person. So confusing 248 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 3: for me. But you know those you know those moments 249 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:27,719 Speaker 3: where you go, oh, just call them and tell them that, 250 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 3: or just because you know, you get into these habits 251 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 3: and it becomes part of your life. And in those 252 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,559 Speaker 3: weeks afterwards, I'd be like, ohll just call Max. 253 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 4: Oh shit, yeah, okay name I know. 254 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, So yeah, that was that was really hard, and 255 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 3: I think part of it for me was and this 256 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 3: is the thing I've realized. The thing about our brains 257 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:53,319 Speaker 3: is we don't like unfinished stories, and we either make 258 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 3: up the ending so that we can rest, or we 259 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 3: remain in this state of complete confusion. And and you know, 260 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 3: you just can't rest until you've got the ending or 261 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 3: you've got the pieces of the puzzle. And during those 262 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 3: weeks and months afterwards, it was very, very difficult for 263 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 3: me to get information about the last eighteen months of 264 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 3: my life. So obviously I could research him and what 265 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 3: he'd done previously because I had his real name now, 266 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 3: but the police really couldn't tell me very much other 267 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 3: than you know, go through my experience. They couldn't release 268 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 3: any information about other victims legally legally, how frustrating. 269 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 270 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 3: And then of course his family of are very tight 271 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 3: lip they wouldn't talk to me, friends, etc. 272 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 4: So I was. 273 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 3: Trying to finish a jigsaw puzzle in my mind so 274 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 3: I could put it to bed, but I couldn't because 275 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 3: no one I couldn't get the information. And I think 276 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 3: that was what was really difficult for me. And it 277 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 3: wasn't until we until I spoke to Greg bar Up, 278 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 3: who was the journalist from The Australian who did the 279 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 3: podcast Who the Hell is Hamish's? Things really started to 280 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 3: become clear. So I lived in that world for. 281 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 4: Over a year. 282 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 2: Oh that's long. 283 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 4: It was a long time. 284 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 3: And at the same time, I was single parenting at 285 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 3: the same time, you know, I had lost all of 286 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 3: my financial security, every piece of savings, all of my 287 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 3: career superannuation, any shares I had, and I had my 288 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 3: monthly salary, and I had a you know, it's not 289 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 3: lost on me that I had a really good job, 290 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 3: but I also worked really hard and I couldn't lose 291 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 3: my job. So I was just working my ass off 292 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 3: during that time, just like I've got to keep my job. 293 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 4: I can't lose my job. 294 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, because that was the only financial security that I had. 295 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 3: So there was all of this stuff going on as well, 296 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 3: and at the same time, I'm just trying to kind 297 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 3: of figure out this parallel universe that I'd been living 298 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 3: in for the last eighteen months. 299 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: I did kind of put it out there to a 300 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: few people who had listened to the podcast, what would 301 00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: you want to know if you could ask her a question? 302 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: I had one person say something that was really offensive 303 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: to me, but a really valid question, and I answered it. 304 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 2: So I'll tell you what I answered to me. 305 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: But because it was offensive to me, she didn't mean 306 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: it in but she couldn't help it, she said, I 307 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: just She goes, I don't want to be victim blame me, 308 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: but I just want to know how stupid can you 309 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: be to give someone your money? And I answered. He'd 310 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: been with her for a year, never talked about her 311 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: money ever, and when he asked her, if this is correct, 312 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: please correct me if it's not. When he asked her, 313 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: do you have a self managed super fund? And she 314 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: said no, he was like, well you sure, because you 315 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: make a lot more interest in. He's a CFO, so 316 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: he's been going to work with her every morning. He 317 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: goes off to his office and she goes off to 318 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: her office. So I know bankers, I know stockbrokers. If 319 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: someone that I've known for over years to me, Evie, 320 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: have you ever thought about, you know, maximizing your money, 321 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 1: Like that's what I do. 322 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 2: I could help you. 323 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 1: I'd be like, here's my super fund because I don't 324 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: know how to do that. That's how easily it can happen, 325 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: like we all know people in banking, in money, someone 326 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: who has and you just I mean, out of one 327 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: hundred percent of people, you've got one percent who's going 328 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: to be con men. 329 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I have so much to say about 330 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 3: this because and first of all, i'd say, you know, 331 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 3: when it all happened, the victim blaming probably came from me, Yeah, 332 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 3: the most, very quickly and the most. And how did 333 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:39,919 Speaker 3: I let this happen? 334 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 4: Pretty much? 335 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 3: Nothing anyone could say to me that I haven't already 336 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 3: said to myself. 337 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 4: But what I do know after all of this time. 338 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:52,199 Speaker 3: And it's been many, many years, is that they're you know, 339 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 3: it's very difficult to describe the insidious nature of this 340 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 3: type of crime and the coercive control and the grooming 341 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 3: that happens over a very long period of time that 342 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 3: gets you to that point. So when the media, you know, 343 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,360 Speaker 3: and to be honest, currently the media doing a fantastic 344 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 3: job at all of this, you know, this kind of narrative. 345 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 3: But previously the media would do these sensationalized stories like 346 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 3: you know, vulnerable divorcee loses life savings to con man 347 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 3: in you know, another country or whatever it might be. 348 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 3: And you see those sensational headlines and you flick past 349 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 3: them because you think, what an idiot. I'd never do that, 350 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 3: and I was one of those people. But what I 351 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 3: what I want to do in bringing this story forward 352 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 3: is help educate people like your friend who and in 353 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 3: fairness to her, I probably would have said something like 354 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 3: that as well. But what we know about you know 355 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,719 Speaker 3: the function and the these types of relationships where there 356 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 3: is so much grooming and so much coercive control. In 357 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 3: my case it was financial coercive control. Is that if 358 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 3: Hamish had knocked on my door one day and said 359 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 3: handover is super new savings trace enough I go, I 360 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 3: one hundred percent never would have done it. This is 361 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 3: a man who weaseled his way into my life over 362 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 3: a period of nearly a year and a half. He 363 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 3: pretended to be somebody else. He completely deceived me on 364 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:34,239 Speaker 3: all levels, both an emotional and a professional level. The 365 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 3: number of conversations that we had about finances, about his 366 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 3: line of work, about what he was investing for some 367 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 3: of the wealthiest families in Australia, the different strategies, the 368 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 3: prices of God. I would overhear conversations with people that existed. 369 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 3: I still don't know who these people are, but I 370 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 3: could hear them on the other end of the phone 371 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 3: talking about the closing price of gold, what happened in 372 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 3: the French election, how that's impacting the US economy, what 373 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 3: investments were doing. What you know, he would send me, 374 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 3: And these are just a few examples, just to paint 375 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 3: the picture. But he would send me an email every 376 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 3: week every Friday that he purportedly wrote to all of 377 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 3: his investors that was pages and pages long about what's 378 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 3: happening in the market and the stocks and how they've 379 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,479 Speaker 3: traded them, and what's happening with the investments, and what 380 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 3: the predictions are. He had Bloomberg monitors set up in 381 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 3: his apartment that he tinkered on the whole time. There 382 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 3: were official well they were fake, but he had, you know, 383 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 3: forged official documents of the investments that he was doing 384 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 3: for me, pages and pages long, showing me the different 385 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 3: trades and what it started at, what it ended at, 386 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 3: you know. And these are just a few examples of, 387 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 3: you know, the way in which he created this movie. 388 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 3: I guess you could say that you know by the 389 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 3: time he asked me about my superannuation and how many 390 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 3: you know, how much I was paying in fees and 391 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,439 Speaker 3: that he could do better for me. I had this 392 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 3: confirmation that he was exactly who he said he was. 393 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 3: Just this is the death by a thousand cuts. This 394 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 3: is the coeresive control. This is the you know, the 395 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 3: deceit to get me to a point where I, one 396 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 3: hundred percent, without a shadow of a doubt, believed that 397 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 3: A he had my best interests at heart, and B 398 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 3: he was the perfect person to help me be financially 399 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 3: independent for the rest of my life. 400 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, there really wasn't. 401 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have been a better person because you were 402 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: with this person and they had your best interests. 403 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 404 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: Ideally this situation would end so differently for so many 405 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: other people. This particular story is quite an anomaly because 406 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: you know, most people who were in the money sector legit. 407 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this was truly bad luck. 408 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so. 409 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 3: And you know, I often think you know, people who 410 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 3: run small businesses or you know, I've worked in marketing 411 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 3: for twenty five years, and people that sort of say 412 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 3: things and come to me and ask questions. I would 413 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 3: offer them advice and offer to help them do their marketing, 414 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 3: for example, and someone would look at me and go Okay, 415 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 3: we'll she's been working in marketing for twenty five years. 416 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 4: It should be a great person to do it. Now. 417 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 3: I don't have an ill in tent, so that's the difference. 418 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 3: But the grooming that happens in these types of things 419 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 3: that you don't realize because it is death by a 420 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 3: thousand cuts, yes, you know, and I think that's what 421 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 3: I'm really keen for people to understand that, you know, 422 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 3: it doesn't happen in the way that you think it 423 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 3: does in a two minute clip that you might see 424 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 3: on the Current Affair program. 425 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,919 Speaker 1: And now you've written a book, I'm assuming that the 426 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,479 Speaker 1: is too pronged for you advice to give, you know, 427 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 1: a warning, but also quite cathartic. Yeah, yeah, what was 428 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 1: it like going through it all again? 429 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 3: The book is broken into three parts, so there's a before, 430 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 3: during it, and after, and so each of those sections 431 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 3: described my life in that moment in time, so it's memoir. 432 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:27,360 Speaker 3: So the before part is really sets the scene of 433 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 3: who I am as a person once happened to me 434 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 3: in my life, and without giving any spoilers, you know, 435 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 3: a lot had happened in my life before before I 436 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 3: even met Hamish, so I lost my dad when he 437 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 3: was fifty three, very quickly to Lakemia. I very soon 438 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,719 Speaker 3: after lost my best friend's husband died at thirty one 439 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 3: in his sleep. We ran away to India together to 440 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 3: deal with that. So that was fabulous. And then you know, 441 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 3: I got married and had a bay and then my 442 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 3: mum got breast cancer when my daughter was five weeks old, 443 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 3: so I went through my maternity leave, you know, with 444 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 3: her doing that. And then I had a miscarriage, and 445 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 3: then I had a divorce, and you know, a lot happened, 446 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 3: and the reason a lot happened, that's a lot, and 447 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 3: it's not to dwell on those things. And it's written 448 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 3: very you know, there's a lot of humor in there 449 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 3: as well. But essentially what that does is set the 450 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 3: scene for who I'm as a person. I've dealt with grief, 451 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 3: I've dealt with despair, I've dealt with heartache. And then 452 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 3: of course it goes into a lot of detail about 453 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 3: my relationship with Hamish, how we met, how we built that, 454 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 3: and I needed seventy five thousand words to explain the 455 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 3: insidious nature of what happened, and so we go through 456 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 3: all of that, and then of course the after section 457 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 3: is what happened after he was you know, he was 458 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 3: arrested and then sentenced and the podcast finished, and what 459 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 3: you're left with is a life that you have to 460 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 3: put back together. And I think it was a really 461 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 3: nice roundout because, you know, I had built up a 462 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 3: level of resilience and strength and I knew that even 463 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,360 Speaker 3: though it was one of the worst things that's ever 464 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 3: happened to me. It was horrific, it wasn't the worst, 465 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 3: and I knew that. 466 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 4: I mean, it was pretty bad, but wowid yeah. 467 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 3: But I knew that if I could get through those 468 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,959 Speaker 3: other things, then I could get through this. And I 469 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 3: just had to you know, I had to give it time. 470 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 3: I had to give it some energy. I had to 471 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 3: be very self compassionate, Like there was so many things 472 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 3: that I'd learned from the before part of my life 473 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 3: that helped me with the after. And I don't think 474 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 3: you need to be swindled by a conman to feel 475 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 3: intense levels of grief, betrayal, heartache, trauma. We're all going 476 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 3: through things, right, and hopefully the story acts as a 477 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 3: bit of a beacon of hope for anybody going through 478 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 3: a tough time that you know there is there is 479 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 3: a tomorrow, There is hope, You're going to be okay, 480 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 3: but it just takes time. 481 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's really big of you to say some 482 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,959 Speaker 1: and understand that, you know, have that kind of perspective, 483 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: because you know, they say your health is the most 484 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: important thing, and mental health is also a really big thing, 485 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: and that would have been so affected if nothing physical 486 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: or in your medical health, that mental health would have 487 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: been so incredibly crushed and sick. But just going back 488 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: to what I wanted to ask before, because he mentioned 489 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,679 Speaker 1: that during that year the family were tight lived. I 490 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: remember in the documentary you had met his brother, his 491 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: brother in law, his brother in law, and he'd called 492 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: him handbone and then he quickly you know, when you 493 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: said what is what he was call you hanmdbone because 494 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: his name, you know, Max to you, he was like, 495 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: oh it was a skinny little kid and need to 496 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: put hand on the bone. Like it was just so 497 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: good at what he did, like so fast, sociopathically, pathologically 498 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: lying incredibly good. I mean, if anything, part of me 499 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: goes paying a little bit of money because of how 500 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 1: hard he. 501 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 2: Works at his sociopathy. 502 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 1: But I totally do not believe that in any way no, 503 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: but the tight lipners. So what were you trying to 504 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: get from them? And why wouldn't they talk to you? 505 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 3: I think, you know, in some respects, you know, they 506 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 3: were team Hamish, right. Really, really, what's family, right? 507 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: So they they were not completely and utterly ashamed of 508 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: this horendous man. 509 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 3: I mean, I'm sure they were, but you know, how 510 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:46,719 Speaker 3: he's back. I guess it's family. I don't know, you know, 511 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 3: maybe they were concerned about talking to people, talking to 512 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 3: the police. I don't I don't actually know the answers 513 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 3: because I never really really spoke to them. I did 514 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:03,719 Speaker 3: have a call one day from his niece who somehow 515 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,880 Speaker 3: got my number, and she called me and she said, 516 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 3: I've just spoken to Hamish and you know, he wants 517 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 3: to see if he can get your money back. And 518 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 3: there was I can't remember the exact I was in it. 519 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 3: I was in a it was very not a very 520 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 3: good place, but I do remember she said, Hamish wants 521 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,679 Speaker 3: me to tell you to go for a swim in 522 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 3: the ocean and just wash it all off trace And 523 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 3: I just I staid to her on the phone, are 524 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 3: you for fking real? Like this man has just completely 525 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 3: financially and emotionally flattened me. I am a single mum. 526 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 3: I have no idea what's happening. No one will talk 527 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 3: to me, and you're telling me to go for a 528 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 3: swim in the ocean and wash it all off, like 529 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 3: go for yourself, Like, honest, how was she? 530 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 2: I don't know. 531 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 3: I think I guess in her thirties, that's right, Okay, yeah, 532 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 3: I never I never met her. 533 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 2: But but she's an adult herself. Yeah, and you know, 534 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 2: I don't so HiT's wind. 535 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 3: He was. 536 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 2: He was devoting everyone. 537 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: He was grooming his entire family, like obviously you know 538 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: he had family visiting him or because he was on bail, 539 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: but on remand. 540 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 3: Was he No, he never got bail. So this was 541 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 3: one of the fantastic things that because that was why 542 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 3: he was a flight risk, of course, and they had 543 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 3: enough evidence over the time that they were investigating him 544 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 3: when they arrested him that they were very confident that 545 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 3: he wouldn't get bail, which is what they wanted. So 546 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 3: he was arrested that day after we got back from 547 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 3: Bayern Bay and he has never been out since. 548 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 2: And he's due for parole six is. 549 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 3: That July twenty twenty six, will be nine years and 550 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 3: he'll be up for parole. 551 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 2: Then how do we stop it? Yeah, let's sun a petition. No, okay. 552 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: So the family were they there at the trial? I 553 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: wasn't a trial, was it because he pled guilty? 554 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 4: It was a hearing? Like it was against process. I 555 00:29:58,720 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 4: don't know what. Yeah, proper terminal. 556 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 2: So you were all there. 557 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: I loved the shots of you all out the front, 558 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: holding each other and just being there for each other. 559 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 4: Like so supportive. 560 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 2: Are you all still in touch? 561 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 4: Yeah? We are. 562 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 3: I hosted a dinner up at Pilloo in Freshwater last 563 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 3: week and there were ninety five people there and one 564 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 3: of the other victims, Karen, came. 565 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 4: Along to support Math. 566 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 3: Karen Love, Karen Beck, Beck and I still talk a lot. Yeah, 567 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 3: we're definitely definitely in touch, you know, having been connected 568 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 3: with Beck actually, and this is sort of where after 569 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 3: that year of just hell, and then Greg started investigating 570 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 3: and he was fabulous, Like Greg is just the most compassionate, kind, 571 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 3: empathetic man. And he would call me almost every other 572 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 3: day as he was working on this project and say, 573 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 3: oh my god, Trace, You're never gonna believe what I 574 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 3: found out. And I'm like, okay, give it to me, 575 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 3: he goes, he's got a wife, like what huh? And 576 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 3: they obviously they weren't married, they were divorced. And he said, 577 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 3: did you know he was married? And I said no, 578 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 3: but nothing surprised with me. And I said, can you 579 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 3: ask her if it's okay if I contact her? 580 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 4: And he said, of course. She's an amazing trace. 581 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 3: Like the thing about this man, he's a complete asshole, 582 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 3: but god, he's got good taste in women. 583 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,719 Speaker 1: Well, i'd give him that because he did like everyone 584 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 1: that yeah, yeah, yeah, just you. 585 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 3: But yeah, and all the other victims as part of 586 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,959 Speaker 3: this case weren't in an intimate relationship. They were more 587 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 3: in a business type of relationship or friendship. Yeah, because 588 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 3: friends became friends. Yeah. He was really really good at 589 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 3: whistling his way in. But when I met Beck, because 590 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 3: they had been married and there were things that I 591 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 3: could talk to Beck about that I couldn't talk to 592 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 3: anyone else about, and you know, that was such that 593 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 3: was so comforting for me and her and I would 594 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 3: spend hours and hours and hours on the phone own 595 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 3: just dissecting you know him, I. 596 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 2: Guess, and that you needed that. 597 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 4: It was really helpful for me. It was very healing and. 598 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 2: Her she would have been really helped by talking to you. 599 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's true. 600 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: Hearing that she she wasn't the only one who believed 601 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: his bullshit. 602 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, and she's great, she's so much fun. 603 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 2: Did you get your money back? 604 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 4: No? No, not one of them. No. 605 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:24,479 Speaker 3: No? 606 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 2: Why what? What? Where? Why? Well? 607 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 4: As part of the investigatory why. 608 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 3: Well, that is the seven point six million dollar question, 609 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 3: isn't it? 610 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 2: Literally? 611 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 3: Look the as part of the investigation, the police reported 612 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 3: or that part of part of what they put together 613 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 3: was that there is no money anywhere. There is no 614 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,719 Speaker 3: money in bank accounts in Australia for him, there is 615 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 3: there is no money. So that was the extent of 616 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 3: their investigation into the money flow, and they had, you know, 617 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 3: forantic accountants on it, and they did take us through 618 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 3: in some detail. I think what happens in these cases, 619 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 3: and you know, I can't be certain about this, but 620 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 3: their their job and their remit and what they're incentivized 621 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 3: to do is to put people like Amish away for 622 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 3: as long as possible, and they absolutely did that. His 623 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 3: sentence was actually sixteen years, so he actually was sentenced 624 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 3: to sixteen years in the initial in the initial Yeah, 625 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 3: what's the detective's name, Tom Zadravak. 626 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 2: Tom. 627 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 3: So. 628 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 2: Tom did say he was told you all were looking 629 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 2: probably realistically at three years for crime like this. Yeah, 630 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 2: and he was so ecstatic when he got the sixteen years. 631 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 4: He was like a dog with a bone. 632 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 2: That man. 633 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 4: He was amazing. 634 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 3: And it was one of the biggest sentences for white 635 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 3: collar crime in New South Wales that we'd ever seen, 636 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 3: so it was significant. So in that regard, the police 637 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 3: and Tom and his team did an incredible job and 638 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 3: I'll be forever grateful for the work that they did 639 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 3: on that because I know, you know, in talking to Tom, 640 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 3: how hard it is to prosecute fraud and but I 641 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 3: guess as part of that, their job is not to 642 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 3: follow the money, you know, their job is not to 643 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,399 Speaker 3: rest until they find where that money went. Their job 644 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 3: was to prove the crime and to say that there's 645 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 3: no money left. So none of the victims got any 646 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 3: money back. And I guess there's still, you know, this 647 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 3: unanswered question in my mind that is there actually any 648 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 3: money out there and there's no one looking for it, 649 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 3: because of course, when you've lost all your money, you 650 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 3: don't have the funds or the resources to pay a 651 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 3: private investigator go looking. So you know, we've just had 652 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 3: to accept that. But you know, i'd be very interesting 653 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 3: to see, you know, what happens in a couple of 654 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 3: years or whatever when when Hamish is out, and whether 655 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 3: there's access to money anywhere. 656 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 2: What what's your ideal outcome? 657 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 3: I have accepted that I will never see that money again, 658 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 3: and I mean the ideal outcome is that I get 659 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,879 Speaker 3: my money back, but I think that that I think 660 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 3: that's a very long long shot for any of us 661 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 3: and Hamish. 662 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 2: What's your ideal outcome there? 663 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 3: Look, just that I have nothing nothing to do with 664 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,240 Speaker 3: him ever again. I mean, I would like to hope 665 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 3: that he there is some level of rehabilitation. What I 666 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 3: know about him and the type of person he is, 667 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 3: and over the length of time that he's done what 668 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 3: he's done globally, don't I don't hold out too much hope. 669 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 3: But at the end of the day, it's up to him. 670 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 3: You know, he's the only one that knows what's going 671 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 3: to happen, and he's the only one that's in control 672 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 3: of that. I guess For me, I have chosen to 673 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 3: spend my energy on rebuilding my own life, focusing on 674 00:35:55,040 --> 00:36:00,759 Speaker 3: my daughter, my career, becoming financially stable again, and you know, 675 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 3: in the in these last few years, expressing what happened 676 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 3: in the form of a book to make sure that 677 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,720 Speaker 3: not one more person goes through what I went through. 678 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 2: Good on you, Tracy, thank you for coming on. I 679 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 2: really appreciate me. 680 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:17,919 Speaker 4: I love your voice as well. 681 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 3: You're so calming. You should do meditations. Oh okay, yeah, 682 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:23,919 Speaker 3: I would totally fall asleep to your voice. 683 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 4: I mean, flat timer every night. 684 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 3: I'll not in a creepy way, not a creepy way, 685 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 3: just like in a really light child relaxed. 686 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 2: Thank you. 687 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: In the anults and I have a think about it. 688 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 1: Thank you for being so honest, so upfront, vulnerable and 689 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 1: reliving these parts. 690 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:40,840 Speaker 3: You know. 691 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: Congratulations on your book. Good luck with the sales of it. 692 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: I really hope you do well. To me, you just 693 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:48,800 Speaker 1: you just can't trust anyone. 694 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 2: You know that. 695 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 1: That's what breaks my heart because at the end of 696 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,320 Speaker 1: the day, you have to look at your own family 697 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:55,720 Speaker 1: and friends. 698 00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 2: Who do I trust? 699 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: That could happen to me? So I'm just gonna I 700 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: know that that's a negative thing. 701 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, say a. 702 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 3: Butt, Well, I like I definitely see the world differently now, Yeah, good, 703 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 3: because I you know, I probably you know, I've never 704 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 3: come across anyone like Hamish before. I don't, I don't 705 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:19,239 Speaker 3: know anyone like that. But what I would say is 706 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 3: that Hamish is an outlier. 707 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:22,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I. 708 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 3: Think if you go through the world only looking for 709 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 3: the red flags, that love and kindness can't exist in 710 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 3: that world, and that, for me, is a shitty place 711 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 3: to live and I don't want to live in I 712 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:35,720 Speaker 3: don't want to live in that world. So I choose 713 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 3: to believe that he is the outlier. I do think 714 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 3: that we need to be vigilant. I do think we 715 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 3: need to be more aware, more critical. I was probably 716 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 3: not critical enough in my thinking, and not to say 717 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 3: that I could have critically thought my way out of 718 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 3: the fact that the man that was, you know, spooning 719 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 3: me in bed every night was also plotting to destroy me. 720 00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:01,239 Speaker 3: But I think, you know, there's I just want there 721 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 3: to be an awareness. I know that I won't be 722 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 3: the last victim. I hope that I am, but the 723 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,799 Speaker 3: let just sometimes just having a little thought in your 724 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,719 Speaker 3: head that there's a level of awareness, not that you're 725 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 3: looking in everyone like this. But I don't know, I 726 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 3: choose to believe that the world is a pretty incredible place. 727 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 3: He is an outlier, he deserves to be where he is, 728 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,399 Speaker 3: and the rest of us, you know, I don't think 729 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 3: we should go through the world not being trustful, but 730 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 3: just being curious, a bit more curious. 731 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 1: I love that. I love that that's actually helped me. 732 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 1: You've helped me. 733 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 4: I don't want you to feel bad leaving this combo. 734 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 2: No, I mean, that's my own shit, isn't it that? 735 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:43,399 Speaker 3: You know? 736 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,880 Speaker 1: But I really really respect that opinion and that view 737 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 1: of life, and I really appreciate you saying that. So 738 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,359 Speaker 1: I am just so glad that you are at that 739 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: place in your life because that's where you deserve to be, and. 740 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 2: I'm really glad that you're there. And we'll just leave 741 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 2: it at that. Thank you so much, Tracy 742 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,239 Speaker 4: Thanks Avie, so nice to meet you.