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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. The thing

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Speaker 1: I found most fascinating as a homicide detective was delving

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Speaker 1: into the psychology of the perpetrators, looking for red flags,

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Speaker 1: interpreting crime scenes, and discovering motives. The difficult part of

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Speaker 1: being a homicide detective was the fact that in most cases,

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Speaker 1: the best you could do for the victim was to

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Speaker 1: solve the crime. But what I find fascinating about today's

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Speaker 1: guest is. The work she focuses on is preventing crime. Today,

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Speaker 1: we're speaking to Laura Richards, who is a well renowned

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Speaker 1: criminal behavioral analyst, an international expert on domestic violence, stalking,

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Speaker 1: coercive controls, sexual violence, homicide, and risk assessment. She has

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Speaker 1: applied her psychological degrees to analyze violent crime from a

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Speaker 1: behavioral and preventative perspective. Laura has trained with the FBI

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Speaker 1: and work with New Scotland Yard. She has been involved

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Speaker 1: in multiple law reforms relating to the better protection for victims.

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Speaker 1: Is an author and a podcaster, so clearly we've got

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Speaker 1: a lot to talk about, so let's get into this.

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Speaker 1: Laura Richards, welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, it's really good to be here.

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Speaker 1: Well, I know you're busy, and I'm excited to get

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Speaker 1: you on the podcast, and I've had a look at

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Speaker 1: the work you've done. My background, I worked as a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective for over twenty years and the frustration I

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Speaker 1: had as a homicide detective was at the best what

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Speaker 1: you could do for the victim was solved the crime.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of your focus is about preventing crimes

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Speaker 1: and the difference between reactive investigations and proactive investigations. Do

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Speaker 1: you want to just talk us through a little bit

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Speaker 1: about that process, break that down.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Well, firstly, thank you very much for inviting me

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Speaker 2: and thank you for the work that you've done, because

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Speaker 2: it's not easy.

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Speaker 1: For me.

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Speaker 2: I spent five years at New Scotland Yard, my first

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Speaker 2: five years working in a unit that was set up

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Speaker 2: because we had a very prolific serial killer called Peter

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Speaker 2: Suckcliffe who had abused and harmed and killed many women

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Speaker 2: up in the northeast of England. And my unit was

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Speaker 2: really a response to that, a sexual offensive section so

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Speaker 2: that we would ensure someone like Peter Suckliffe wouldn't happen again.

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Speaker 2: So the idea behind it was to link rape, murder

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Speaker 2: and abduction cases and to be on the front foot.

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Speaker 2: And it was a brave new world really at new

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Speaker 2: Scotland Yard, and a response to what was called the

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Speaker 2: Byford Report, which was all the failures of Peter Suckcliffe

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Speaker 2: being in front of the detectives on fourteen occasions and

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Speaker 2: they still didn't know it was him. So there was

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Speaker 2: a lot of learning and that was a really good

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Speaker 2: response to set up a proactive unit and it was

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Speaker 2: very much based on the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit, which

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Speaker 2: most people have seen as portrayed in the Netflix show

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Speaker 2: mind Hunter. So Robert Wrestler, Roy Hazlewood, John Douglas all

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Speaker 2: of their work and my unit at New Scotland Yard

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Speaker 2: was the satellite to it. So my first five years

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Speaker 2: were really linking crimes and cases, so serial rape and

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Speaker 2: serial murder cases. And each time I worked with the

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Speaker 2: detectives on those investigations, what was interesting. I would do

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Speaker 2: what we call a psychological autopsy and look at the

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Speaker 2: offenders and reverse engineer their histories, and most of them

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Speaker 2: were on our databases already, and that really intrigued me.

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Speaker 2: Was it just the number of cases that I was

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Speaker 2: exposed to or was it actually far greater than the

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Speaker 2: cases that I had worked on. So when I was

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Speaker 2: given an opportunity, I was headhunted to work on an

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Speaker 2: Understanding and Responding to Hate crime initiative funded by the

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Speaker 2: Home Office. I was asked would I profile domestic violence?

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Speaker 2: I wondered, how tough could that be? And we knew

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Speaker 2: who it was most oftentimes we had their names, their data, births,

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Speaker 2: where they live. In terms of the offenders, and I

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Speaker 2: said that I would be interested in doing that work

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Speaker 2: only if I could conjoin it with sexual violence, so

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Speaker 2: that I could look at sexual violence and domestic violence

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Speaker 2: and reverse engineer the offenders and look at their histories.

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Speaker 2: And really where the proactive work began in terms of

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Speaker 2: understanding risk assessment, understanding that domestic violence offenders are actually

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Speaker 2: dangerous individuals and that we should be taking them more seriously. So, really, Gary,

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Speaker 2: one thing led to another of being you know, I

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Speaker 2: say that the sexual Offenses section was a proactive unit,

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Speaker 2: but you still had a crime. You still had something

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Speaker 2: terrible happening, and then you were linking the offenses and

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Speaker 2: that was tough work because you know, oftentimes people are

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Speaker 2: linkage blind. So those five years were not easy. But

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Speaker 2: I did have some real insight reverse engineering the cases

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Speaker 2: and seeing that these offenders when we arrested them for

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Speaker 2: a stranger related crime, they were on our databases. And

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Speaker 2: I think that's a really important part to sort of

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Speaker 2: my story as to why I kept asking questions about that.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting when you say reverse engineer, I could imagine

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Speaker 1: you had the crime, you assist the crime scene if

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Speaker 1: it's a murder or the statement from the victim and

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Speaker 1: trying to understand the crime finding the perpetrator. But when

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Speaker 1: you found the perpetrator, what you're saying is you're looking

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Speaker 1: back at their history and it's almost like a series

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Speaker 1: of red flags that okay, if someone's stalking from a homicide.

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Speaker 1: To take this point of view, I've always had concern

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Speaker 1: if someone is a stalker, and to me, it just

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Speaker 1: triggers red flags and concerns if I'm looking at a

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Speaker 1: person of interest and there's a history of stalking. But

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Speaker 1: you and being given all that data, the data that

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Speaker 1: you would have had been involved with New Scotland Yard,

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Speaker 1: you found a pattern. Dare say I call them red flags.

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Speaker 1: I think you understand the concept of a red flag indicators.

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Speaker 1: And when you're looking back, you've seen a history that

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Speaker 1: you can almost see the crime building up to the

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Speaker 1: crescendo that it might be, whether that be a sexual

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Speaker 1: assault or a murder.

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly that. And in some cases it's textbook escalation

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Speaker 2: in terms of the pattern of behavior and drip of

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Speaker 2: what they can get away with, and then behavior being

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Speaker 2: what it is, you then carry on pushing boundaries and

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Speaker 2: do more and more. So you know, oftentimes particularly with

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Speaker 2: the stranger rape related cases, and when you've got a

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Speaker 2: serial rapist, they're the jobs that get resourced, right, and

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Speaker 2: you know, they're the good jobs as were seen, you know,

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Speaker 2: back in the culture of policing. And what was interesting

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Speaker 2: was that every case I looked at, they raped their

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Speaker 2: partners before they raped somebody that they didn't know outside

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Speaker 2: the home. But it was domestic violence that was being

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Speaker 2: written off. It's just a domestic law of people would say,

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Speaker 2: and I was saying, but it's not just a domestic

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Speaker 2: If you're prepared to harm and rape the person you're

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Speaker 2: meant to love and care about the most, what else

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Speaker 2: are you prepared to do to a stranger, to a

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Speaker 2: woman that you don't know, So that poarer and control dynamic.

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Speaker 2: I started making the links, but using the evidence and

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Speaker 2: the cases. It wasn't something that I just came up

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Speaker 2: with this concept. It was literally every case I was

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Speaker 2: involved with, and I wanted to understand that better.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it makes sense, and in policing at

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Speaker 1: that time, when we're looking at serial offenders and the

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Speaker 1: work that they did with the FBI. You mentioned the

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Speaker 1: name John Douglas. Just a funny thought in my mind.

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Speaker 1: I read that book When I was a young homicide

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Speaker 1: detective mind Hunter that John Douglas wrote the book, and

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Speaker 1: I quite often stood at the crime scene and I'd

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Speaker 1: be speaking to my colleague going, what would John Douglas

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Speaker 1: do in this situation? I like some of the messaging

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Speaker 1: that came out from the book, But it was a

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Speaker 1: very early science, wasn't It was something that we hadn't

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Speaker 1: really looked into from a criminal investigation point of view

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Speaker 1: law enforcement agencies across the globe. What do you think

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Speaker 1: change was it that someone just finally waking up to

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Speaker 1: there are patterns? We've got to look at it in

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Speaker 1: more detail.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think, you know, the art versus

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Speaker 2: science part has always been the challenge, and it's a

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Speaker 2: bit of both. Going back in time, you know, was

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Speaker 2: the culture ready for it? Probably not. Then there was

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Speaker 2: a big TV show called Cracker in the UK with

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Speaker 2: Robbie Coltrane where he was a psychologist being called in

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Speaker 2: to cases.

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Speaker 1: Remember and that kind of you remember it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it kind of mainstreamed the concept, although what

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Speaker 2: we did was very different from what you saw portrayed.

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Speaker 2: But if I had a pound for every time or

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Speaker 2: a dollar every time a detective said to me, all right, cracker,

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Speaker 2: tell us where he lives and you know what his

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Speaker 2: name is, Dad, and thinking it was really funny. You know,

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Speaker 2: that was literally every case that I ever worked, That's

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Speaker 2: what was being said to me. And it's far more

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Speaker 2: detailed the work in terms of you know, my background

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Speaker 2: is in forensic and legal psychology, and you apply that

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Speaker 2: to understand the offender motivation and you'll know this the

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Speaker 2: important part of the why normally takes you to the who,

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Speaker 2: and so you don't always have the why. You've got

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Speaker 2: the who, the what, the where, the when, you don't

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Speaker 2: always have the why. So that part of understanding the

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Speaker 2: why done it twinned with victimology. I mean, for me,

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Speaker 2: that's the most important part. Starting with the victims of

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Speaker 2: you understand how they lived, you normally understand how they

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Speaker 2: die too, where's the intersect? And that's painstaking work. It

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Speaker 2: takes a lot of time to sort of understand really

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Speaker 2: who your victim is and you've got to speak to

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Speaker 2: lots of different people's you well know. But the criminal

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Speaker 2: behavioral analysis component also comprises of the crime scene assessment,

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Speaker 2: timeline analysis like the sequence of events in that event,

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Speaker 2: but also the bigger picture of the timeline and linguistic analysis.

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Speaker 2: If you've got it with rape victims, you do tend

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Speaker 2: to have language between the two geographic analysis, statement analysis,

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Speaker 2: interview analysis, which is what I help with, as well

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Speaker 2: as understanding behavior. So there's lots of different components to

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Speaker 2: criminal behavioral analysis, and it is worth just say that

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Speaker 2: because a lot of people still even now don't have

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Speaker 2: a true understanding of what it is. The added extra

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Speaker 2: part that really was what I developed in more detail

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Speaker 2: was the risk assessment component of the reverse engineering, and

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Speaker 2: there wasn't really a lot known about that in policing

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Speaker 2: when I started doing it in two thousand and one,

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Speaker 2: and there wasn't much written in the academic literature, so

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Speaker 2: it really was making it up as we went along.

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Speaker 2: But I also had some great mentors from the FBI,

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Speaker 2: for example, because I worked over there for a period

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Speaker 2: of time. There were people that I talked with in

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Speaker 2: the FBI regularly, and I had mentors at New Scotland

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Speaker 2: Yard and other mentors in the academic world, so it

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Speaker 2: really was a case of shaping things. I had someone

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Speaker 2: called Professor Betsy Stanko who worked with me, who was

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Speaker 2: an American criminologist to create a methodology of understanding the

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Speaker 2: types of questions we should be asking of victims that

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Speaker 2: a domestic violence call out, and that really began the

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Speaker 2: whole risk assessment process.

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Speaker 1: And so you got this, all this information came to

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Speaker 1: helping out investigations. Then you realized, I'm just paraphrasing what

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Speaker 1: you've said. To understand it. You were going back investigating stuff,

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Speaker 1: seeing that there's patterns, and then realizing that the proper

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Speaker 1: due concern wasn't being provided to as just a domestic situation.

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Speaker 1: It's just a husband and wife. They've had a falling out.

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Speaker 1: These are indicators and if we could jump on them

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Speaker 1: and treat them as serious as they need to at

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Speaker 1: that point in time, potentially we can prevent the crime.

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Speaker 1: Because homicide investigation, I can only speak for New South Wales,

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Speaker 1: but I've also worked over in England and had dealings

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Speaker 1: with other homicide squads. We always look at ourselves as

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Speaker 1: just a reactive way of approaching approaching policing. The murders happened,

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Speaker 1: we started the crime scene victimology as you described, and

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Speaker 1: we try to find the perpetrator. But there's a lot

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Speaker 1: more to it, isn't it. There's so much more that

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Speaker 1: we can these red flags. And I know in one

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Speaker 1: of the many interviews you've done or one of the podcasts,

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Speaker 1: you were talking about murder by slow motion, and I

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Speaker 1: think you were referencing a specific case where there were

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Speaker 1: so many red flags, so many indicators, and when the

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Speaker 1: murders actually happened, everyone goes, how did that happen? Well,

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Speaker 1: if we look, it was almost signposted that that was

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Speaker 1: what was going to occur. Do you want to give

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Speaker 1: us an example of murder by slow motion and where

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Speaker 1: mistakes were made?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I mean I started to call it murder and

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Speaker 2: slow motion because of exactly that that pattern that happened

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Speaker 2: in you know, oftentimes it was slow time. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: a quick set of events. And there was one case

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Speaker 2: in particular that really stood out because I talked to

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Speaker 2: the detective Chief inspector, someone called Stuart Aught, and it

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Speaker 2: was when I was starting the risk assessment work and

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Speaker 2: Stuart came up to New Scotland Yard and he said,

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Speaker 2: you should really have a look at this case, Laura,

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Speaker 2: the murder of Christine Boswell, And he said you should

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Speaker 2: really look at the crime reports. It was so obvious

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Speaker 2: that he was going to kill her. And I said, wow,

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Speaker 2: you say that was such clarity, Stuart. He said, yeah,

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Speaker 2: when you look at the crime reports, you'll understand what

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about. And sure enough, thirty three callouts that

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Speaker 2: she had made to her home address with textbook arguing

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Speaker 2: to them physical violence, to then a knife being used

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Speaker 2: to shred her clothes and damage to her property, and

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Speaker 2: then she was stabbed multiple times in front of her

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Speaker 2: two children. And I said to Stuart, it's a really

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Speaker 2: horrific case. And I'm not saying tragic because the word

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Speaker 2: tragic denotes there's nothing we can do about it. This

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Speaker 2: was a preventable murder where we had thirty three opportunities

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Speaker 2: to actually ask a different set of questions of what

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Speaker 2: was going on for Chrissy. And I believed, as did Stuart,

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Speaker 2: that we failed her, and he and I started to

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Speaker 2: talk about over a cup of coffee, well, what are

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Speaker 2: the types of questions that could have been asked to

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Speaker 2: Chrissy that would have made the difference. And that was

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Speaker 2: where the notion of risk assessment came from. Because I

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Speaker 2: always work with the detectives. This was never just in

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Speaker 2: isolation thinking oh, this is a good idea to do.

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Speaker 2: And I said to Stuart. You know the people who

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Speaker 2: also said to you that this was so obvious it

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Speaker 2: was going to end in murder. My question for them is, well,

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Speaker 2: what did you all do about it? Why is it

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Speaker 2: that you look back in hindsight and then of course

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Speaker 2: you understand that there's an incident led response, and that's

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Speaker 2: part of the problem that the police go out and

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Speaker 2: attend the incident. That language is so problematic because with

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Speaker 2: domestic abuse and coercid control and stalking, it's patterned crime.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't happen in a vacuum. So the language and

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Speaker 2: the structure in the way that policing was set up

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Speaker 2: was also a problem. It wasn't just about what was

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Speaker 2: going on in this case, it was also about this

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Speaker 2: incident led response, which meant that no one was really

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Speaker 2: joining up the dots of looking at the history. And

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Speaker 2: that still goes on present day and it's one of

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Speaker 2: my pet peeves that we still haven't got this in

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Speaker 2: the frontline officers, all of those who work within the police,

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Speaker 2: whether you're a call handler, whether you're frontline, whether you're

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Speaker 2: a supervisor, it should be mandatory training that they know

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Speaker 2: this is patterned crime and you must expect there to

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Speaker 2: be a pattern, either previously or that it will continue

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Speaker 2: to happen if you don't make an intervention, and that's

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Speaker 2: where we can save lives, but we also save money,

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Speaker 2: the two things together. So Christine Boswell's case always stood

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Speaker 2: out to me because it was the start of Okay, well,

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Speaker 2: let's look at Christine's case, let's review it, and let's

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Speaker 2: take another five cases in the first three months of

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Speaker 2: two thousand and one, and let's do a domestic homicide

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Speaker 2: review of these six cases. And that's what I did,

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Speaker 2: and I work with another DC I called Alan Orberlak,

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Speaker 2: and he and I wrote the guidance for even how

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Speaker 2: you do a domestic homicide review. But we kept coming

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Speaker 2: up against people saying, well, there's no legislation to make

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Speaker 2: us do this review, so we don't want to do it.

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Speaker 2: And that was a continual problem. So then I worked

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Speaker 2: with Harriet Harmon to create a law, which meant that

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Speaker 2: it became mandatory through the statutory legislation that you must

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Speaker 2: do this. So you know, one thing came after the other.

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Speaker 2: But in I went on to review fifty six domestic

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Speaker 2: murders and they all had very similar patterns. Before the

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Speaker 2: murder event.

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Speaker 1: Itself and those patterns. We're talking about an next escalation,

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Speaker 1: and it could be starts off as an argument that

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Speaker 1: hasn't got physical. If there's a separation, series of text messages,

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Speaker 1: then specific threats in the messages, an assault, then a knife.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned clothes being cut up. I always was of

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Speaker 1: great concern when the family pet was murdered or killed.

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Speaker 1: That type of indicator is going, Okay, this person is

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Speaker 1: going to go further and further. So you reviewed fifty

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Speaker 1: cases of domestic murders, so the offender has been in

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Speaker 1: a relationship, was or previously been in a relationship with

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Speaker 1: the victim, and you saw a pattern all the way

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Speaker 1: through with those fifty fifty cases.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I mean I took fifty six. It was that

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Speaker 2: one year's worth of domestic murders within the Metropolitan Police.

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Speaker 2: But the issue, first of all, was that no one

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Speaker 2: counted the domestic murders. So it wasn't as easy as saying,

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Speaker 2: let's review all the domestic murders. I actually had to

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Speaker 2: find them all and then create a system so that

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Speaker 2: when a murder happened, that the center was flagged that

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Speaker 2: this was most likely a domestic violence murder and then

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Speaker 2: once someone was arrested and or charged, then we knew

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Speaker 2: for sure that it was and then we would do

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Speaker 2: the review. So of course it can take time to

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Speaker 2: bottom out with the investigation who the offender is, so

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Speaker 2: that that was an issue, but there were patterns that repeated.

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Speaker 2: So separation, as you quite rightly said, separation increases the

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Speaker 2: risk strangulation which increases the risk sevenfold for femicide escalation,

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Speaker 2: so it happening more often and it getting worse, and

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Speaker 2: the getting worse part being important. Pregnancy and new birth,

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Speaker 2: so pregnancy being a high risk factor, the threats, and

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Speaker 2: in particular if there's stalking, when someone makes a threat

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Speaker 2: and they stalk, one in two of them would go

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Speaker 2: on to kill. So that fifty percent is really important

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Speaker 2: that everybody knows about it.

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Speaker 1: I read that figure in researching for my chat with you.

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Speaker 1: Can you just break that down again because that horrified me,

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Speaker 1: that figure, that one in two. Just explain that again

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Speaker 1: if you could in detail.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's actually an Australian stat from the first

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Speaker 2: Stalking Clinic, from Troy McEwan's work and Rachel McKenzie's work

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Speaker 2: studying stalkers, and I saw it repeating I mean before

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Speaker 2: they had published on it. I saw it in my

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Speaker 2: domestic homicide reviews. So a threat would be articulated either

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Speaker 2: in writing or verbally or even come from a you know,

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Speaker 2: via a third party. We see a lot of this

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Speaker 2: stuff online now, but the threat is made to harm

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Speaker 2: or to kill or to take revenge. And if there

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Speaker 2: is stalking and there's been an intimate relationship, and an

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Speaker 2: intimate relationship can be you know, as classed in the police.

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Speaker 2: It's that you have had a level of intimacy, so

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Speaker 2: maybe you had a it can be one date you

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Speaker 2: had sex with the person, it doesn't need to be

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Speaker 2: twenty two years and that threat being made. Then in

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Speaker 2: one in two cases we saw the murders then being

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Speaker 2: carried out, so the victims were actually telling us that

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Speaker 2: they were going to be killed and then they were.

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Speaker 2: So it's such an important statistic that even with stranger

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Speaker 2: related stalking, ie you don't know the stalker, one in

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Speaker 2: ten of them, if they make a threat, will act

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Speaker 2: on it. And that's why it's so important to take

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Speaker 2: those threats seriously. Too often they're not taken seriously and

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Speaker 2: they're seen as just throw away comments. But when you've

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Speaker 2: got coercive control and stalking. They must be taken seriously.

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Speaker 2: So you know, our knowledge now is even greater when

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Speaker 2: we think about the timeline to murder and the slow

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Speaker 2: motion element and these high risk clusters that co occur.

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Speaker 2: And if you have a finality with separation, ie, she says,

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Speaker 2: I'm never coming back to you. They may have separated

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Speaker 2: five times, six times before, but this occasion she's saying,

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Speaker 2: I'm never coming back. That finality element, like with Hannah

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Speaker 2: Clark's case, you know, is the tipping point when the

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Speaker 2: person who's coercively controlling stalking, that's when they take, you know,

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Speaker 2: matters into their own hands. Of it's I'm going to

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Speaker 2: win at all costs, that kind of psychopathology that I

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Speaker 2: have to win at all costs, and that's when it's

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Speaker 2: incredibly dangerous for women and children.

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Speaker 1: So with all that you've learned to put what you're

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Speaker 1: talking about in the practice, it's about educating, educating police officers.

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Speaker 1: So because invariably it's not the experience detective that's taking

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Speaker 1: the report of a stalking incident, it'll be the front

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Speaker 1: line troops, the uniform police with maybe one or two

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Speaker 1: years service. You've worked in law enforcement agencies. So you

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Speaker 1: understand getting that culture out, but we've really got to

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Speaker 1: get that education going so people understand when this crime

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Speaker 1: that in isolation, people could look at it, well it's

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Speaker 1: not the biggest crime going on, but got to understand

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Speaker 1: the importance of it. Have you got any thoughts on

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Speaker 1: how we need to educate law enforcement officers, agencies, police forces,

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Speaker 1: not just over in US, Australia, across the world. Basically

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Speaker 1: I do.

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Speaker 2: And I wrote the book Policing Domestic Violence.

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Speaker 1: Which was okay, well that's question press.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a very good question. Garan is right behind me.

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Speaker 2: I actually wrote it with two police officers who were

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Speaker 2: experts as well, and they were brilliant, Simon Letchford and

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Speaker 2: Sharon Stratton. And you know why we wrote the book,

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Speaker 2: because you don't make money from writing books like that.

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Speaker 2: It was to put all of the good practice in

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Speaker 2: one place. Because we wrote the policy for New Scotland

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Speaker 2: Yard and the Metropolitan Police. I should just locate that

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Speaker 2: New Scotland Yard is the headquarters for the Metropolitan Police,

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Speaker 2: which is where I was based for a lot of

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Speaker 2: my career for the ten years. Although I did go

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Speaker 2: out and work in incident rooms there's that term again

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Speaker 2: to support major inquiries at different times. But Simon and

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Speaker 2: Sharon and I worked together writing the policy but also

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Speaker 2: delivering training, and we became nationally recognized experts that we

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Speaker 2: were being asked to go out all the time, and

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Speaker 2: we just wanted to make sure that All the Good

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Speaker 2: Practice was written in a police friendly way, in a

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Speaker 2: practical way, that it wasn't an academic paper. It was

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Speaker 2: something that a frontline officer could pick up, dip in

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Speaker 2: and out of chapters and it made sense to them

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Speaker 2: on a practical level, and the three of us were

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Speaker 2: really invested in that. So the book still stands. It's

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Speaker 2: Oxford University Press published, and All the Good Practice really

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Speaker 2: is just as relevant today as when we wrote it

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Speaker 2: and published it in two thousand and nine. Differences we've

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Speaker 2: got new laws like the course of control law and

434
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,439
Speaker 2: stalking law, but in terms of the good practice of

435
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 2: what police should be doing, from the call handler to

436
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:15,160
Speaker 2: the frontline officer, to the specialist officers, to the supervisors

437
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 2: who are so important in this, and to expert led training.

438
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 2: Because you have to attend expert led training. I believe

439
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 2: it's not just a subject that a trainer can deliver

440
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 2: road traffic collision training one morning and then they talk

441
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 2: about domestic abuse and course of control in the afternoon.

442
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,679
Speaker 2: You have to know your stuff. What was interesting to

443
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 2: me was when Sharon Stratton and I were doing frontline training.

444
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 2: We would go get up at five am beyond the

445
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 2: seven am parades delivering to frontline officers, and I thought

446
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 2: they would be quite difficult and trunky, that's a very

447
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,479
Speaker 2: British term. But what was interesting was that when we

448
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 2: talked to them about cases and explaining the high risk

449
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 2: factors and why they're going to ask the questions on

450
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,200
Speaker 2: the risk assessment, they were so interested we couldn't get

451
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 2: them back out the classroom. They wanted to stay and

452
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 2: ask questions. And that was my first real lesson about

453
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 2: don't make assumptions about frontline officers. They just want quality

454
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 2: training and you need to invest in them and give

455
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 2: them the right knowledge because they do a very difficult job.

456
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 2: So you know, I've trained officers and police staff all

457
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 2: over the world and they do do a tough job.

458
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,159
Speaker 2: And my mantra is always first time, right time. You know,

459
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 2: you give them the best information and they deserve that

460
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 2: level of investment, and it's a leadership issue that they

461
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 2: don't get trained with experts, and it saves lives and

462
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 2: saves money, and why wouldn't you want to do that.

463
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: Look, I'm all for it. And that's why just listening

464
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: to you say that, I look at the police forces

465
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 1: that I understand the culture people join the place. Yeah,

466
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: there's lots of reasons when they join the place, but

467
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 1: they want to help. And you talked about the frontline police.

468
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 1: The supervisors are important because quite often the frontline police

469
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: are seen the damage done at the crime scene or

470
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 1: when the instance occurred, but they're under pressure from supervisors.

471
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: Well to conflict, get that one done, move on to

472
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 1: the next one. Let's keep the statistics down. But when

473
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: you sell it, and you also mentioned that it's not

474
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: just save lives, it has a fiscal benefit too. It

475
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 1: saves money, and that might be how we've got to

476
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 1: tap into some of the upper levels of policing that

477
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: everyone benefits from this. I find it fascinating to have

478
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 1: a conversation with you like this and working in homicide,

479
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: and I was fortunate enough to spend a lot of

480
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 1: my time working on investigations with doctor Sarah, your forensic psychologists.

481
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 1: I love the insight she would bring to an investigation.

482
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 1: I didn't require her input on the majority of investigations,

483
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: but the tricky ones, just trying to get a sense

484
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: on what are we dealing with here, the interpretation of

485
00:26:55,640 --> 00:27:00,400
Speaker 1: the crime scene indicators that we should look for, things

486
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: like that. I think there's a benefit. I think there's

487
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 1: more need for those type of qualified people to be

488
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: in those we'll call them incident rooms, in those investigations

489
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: where it's a fresh idea, looking at it from a

490
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: different approach, not just a policing approach. What's your thoughts

491
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 1: on that. When you worked with Scotland Yard, did you

492
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 1: feel like you were contributing to the quality of the investigation.

493
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean I was a part of them, so

494
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 2: I was running units internally, so it's slightly different from

495
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 2: bringing people in from externally. But when I ran the

496
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 2: homicide prevention unit, because that's what I did, mainstreaming a

497
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 2: lot of this work at New Scotland Yard as well.

498
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 2: I had academics as well as researchers working with police

499
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 2: intelligence officers and intelligence analysts as well as filled intelligence

500
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 2: officers and detectives. I had a whole intel cell full

501
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 2: of those people, and that was a very interesting culture

502
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 2: clash of you know, different people from different expertise, different

503
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 2: fields all within one you know, intelligence cell. But you know,

504
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 2: I think you do have to draw upon expertise, and

505
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 2: I think that, you know, for my work, when we

506
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 2: go back to nineteen ninety six, the culture was very different,

507
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,719
Speaker 2: and you know, did I feel I was contributing at

508
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 2: the time, Absolutely, But and I worked some cases where

509
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,880
Speaker 2: you know, I got commendations for the work that I

510
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 2: was doing, linking some very high profile serial rape cases

511
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 2: and being part of successful operations to catch serial rapists

512
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,959
Speaker 2: like Richard Baker and Mark Dixie who had a connection

513
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 2: actually to Australia. So you know, at that time I did.

514
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 2: But I think the culture is still and I mean

515
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 2: policing culture in the UK and Australia and America. I

516
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: think that it is still very misogynistic and that's a

517
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 2: challenge that when you're a female working within it that

518
00:28:55,680 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 2: is invisible to most people by you the resistant that happens,

519
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 2: and I think we have to talk about that because

520
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 2: you can have an expertise, but if you're not really

521
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 2: allowed at the table to have a voice, so you're

522
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 2: seen as valuable. If it's your sex. That's holding you back,

523
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: that's not okay. And I think there's a lot that

524
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 2: we have to tackle within our police services present day

525
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 2: that relates to that and for victims to have trust

526
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: and confidence, it's very important. The Sarah Everard case is

527
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 2: a case in point in London. You know that happened

528
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 2: in the pandemic.

529
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about that case because that was

530
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: a serving police officer I believe was the offender.

531
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, it's a horrific case. Sarah Everard was

532
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 2: a young woman who went out during the lockdown, went

533
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 2: to a friend's house and she was caught on CCTV

534
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 2: cameras talking to a man and she disappeared. So interestingly

535
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 2: I got flyers from my neighbors to ask me would

536
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 2: I put it the case on my podcast because she

537
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 2: local It happened locally, So I got involved early on

538
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 2: of just trying to help circulate information and it was

539
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 2: the you know what has happened to her? But it

540
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 2: didn't sound good right from the get go, and unfortunately

541
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 2: what became clear was the man in the image was

542
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 2: the serving police officer and he actually used his warrant

543
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 2: card to detain her, put her in the back of

544
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: a rented car and took her out of London, and

545
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 2: we now know that he raped her and he killed her.

546
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 2: And what followed thereafter, because it is shocking. What followed

547
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 2: thereafter were a series of things that were said by

548
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: police and people, well, if she thought she was at risk,

549
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 2: she should flag down a bus, or you know, comments

550
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 2: about women's safety. Because lots of women came out utterly

551
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 2: horrified and shocked and concerned about what had happened and

552
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 2: shared all their stories online. And then we had some

553
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 2: you know, really ridiculous comments being made which showed just

554
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 2: how little has really changed for women even since Peter Suckcliffe.

555
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 2: That my neighbors were telling me the police were knocking

556
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 2: on their doors after Sarah went missing, saying don't go out,

557
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 2: women shouldn't go out after dark. Well that's what they

558
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 2: said in the Peter Suckcliffe investigation. So you know, everything

559
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 2: that was done and said just aggravated it even more.

560
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 2: And the commissioner, unfortunately at the time, said it's one

561
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 2: bad apple. But what we've seen is that there's been

562
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 2: many officers who have been you know, arrested for domestic abuse,

563
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 2: for sexual violence, for rape. I'm sure for you as

564
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 2: a former officer. I mean, it's just so against the

565
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 2: grain of everything that why you join the police to

566
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 2: protect and serve and then in amongst you know, and

567
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 2: it turns out that quite a few people understood that

568
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 2: he was a wrongman, you know, and where does that

569
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 2: information go? And when I ran the homicide Prevention unit,

570
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 2: we set up a process to weed out those people

571
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,719
Speaker 2: internally and externally. And you know, I felt, you know,

572
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 2: really upset seeing these things unfold for Sarah's family, but

573
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: also for you know, what's going on that we're recruiting

574
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 2: men with histories and that it wasn't even investigated even

575
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 2: though his history was cleared.

576
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: Well, Laura, I think my concern with police and when

577
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: you say organizations misogynistic and that it can't be argue

578
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: that's yeah, is what it is. We all talk about

579
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: change and that needs change. There needs to be more change.

580
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: I make the observation with police, and you know, when

581
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: you talk about the one, the case that you just

582
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: referred to and all the other offenses, police have extraordinary power,

583
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: Like you've got that badge, You've got the authority to

584
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: arrest someone, You've got the authority to take someone's life.

585
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: In a certain set of circumstances, power corrupts. If you

586
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: have the wrong type of personality in there, it can

587
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: go really bad and taking, you know, using the warrant

588
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 1: card to abduct the girl, to rape her, murder her. Yeah,

589
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 1: that's what you've got to be on the lookout for.

590
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: I know you've spent some time in law enforcement agencies.

591
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: Just by the way the conversation, you understand the culture,

592
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: and it's not tipping the tipping the bucket on everyone.

593
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: There's some great people in policing law enforcement agencies, but

594
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: we've got to police our own too, and if there's problems,

595
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: there's indicators, we can't just turn the blind eye and go, well,

596
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: that's all right, he's all right, he's one of us.

597
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: We've got to go go hard on it. Absolutely, when

598
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: you were working in those environments, did you have clashes

599
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: with people over issues like you've just raised.

600
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 2: I did. I. You know, it was something that I

601
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 2: never thought it was related to my sex, I have

602
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 2: to say, being a woman. But now you know, being

603
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 2: older and wiser, I now understand that context. And I

604
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 2: still carried on doing the work. I still was so

605
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: invested in creating change, and I worked with some brilliant

606
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 2: people and had incredible opportunities and we you know, prevented well.

607
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 2: We reduced domestic murders by fifty eight percent over thirteen years.

608
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 2: That's thirty three people less dead in London, which you

609
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,280
Speaker 2: know is incredible. And I worked with some brilliant people,

610
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 2: but I also work with some really concerning, terrible people

611
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 2: who caused a lot of problems, and they should have

612
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,839
Speaker 2: been dealt with at a far earlier stage. They were

613
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 2: given at the benefit of the doubt far too many times,

614
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 2: and that again is a trust and confidence issue that

615
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 2: I guess, you know, it goes down to sort of

616
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 2: this meme that I saw recently on social media where

617
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 2: you know, victim says that she was raped or abused.

618
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 2: What we need or a woman says I'm raped, I've

619
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 2: been raped or abused or treated bad. We need fifty

620
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:54,760
Speaker 2: eight videos, thirty statements for witnesses. Man says he didn't

621
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 2: do it. Oh okay, you know, And that's what I

622
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 2: feel the culture within but also so outside of You

623
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,839
Speaker 2: only know your own lived experience, and most men will

624
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 2: never have experience of what women deal with every day

625
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 2: that we just put down to it just happens rather

626
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 2: than I always wonder what life would be like if

627
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,240
Speaker 2: everything worked for me, if I was Lawrence and not Laura.

628
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 2: I think my policing experience and my life experience would

629
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:22,919
Speaker 2: be wholly different. Let me put it that way.

630
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: It's an interesting way way to look at it. Look,

631
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: we've dived deep in and I haven't even covered off

632
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 1: on how you got into the field of expertise that

633
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 1: you've found. What's a little bit about yourself. How did

634
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 1: you find your way to the career that you've got

635
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: now and the expertise that you've developed in law enforcement?

636
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean going back in time, I guess I

637
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 2: probably consumed a lot of TV movies and shows related

638
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,479
Speaker 2: to crime, but also read a lot of Nancy Drew

639
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 2: Hardy boys. You know. Always was very interested in people

640
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 2: and analytical work and injustice. And I did think about

641
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 2: doing criminal law for a time and then realized that

642
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 2: actually kept being advised you'd have to do criminal defense work. That's,

643
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 2: you know, really where you get a lot of the

644
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 2: good jobs and you earn money. And I just thought, no,

645
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 2: I can't do that. And then the accused came on

646
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 2: TV with Jodie Foster and injustice happened in my own family,

647
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 2: and I guess those things just wedded together. And I

648
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 2: did know a detective up at new Scotland Yard who

649
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: worked in the arts and antiques unit, and I kept

650
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 2: calling him and asking whether he felt there would be

651
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 2: any kind of position coming up at New Scotland Yard.

652
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 2: They were just starting this sexual offenses section and I

653
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 2: was at university doing my psychology degree, but I had

654
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 2: to take a year out and internship and I said,

655
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 2: I will work, you know, I'll be the first in

656
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 2: last out. I'll do, you know, whatever is necessary. And

657
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 2: I just kept calling and was tenacious, and in the

658
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 2: end they said, yup, we're just starting this unit. Come

659
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 2: up and meet with us. And they gave me a

660
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,760
Speaker 2: role of what was called a college based sandwich student

661
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 2: in the sexual offenses section. And that, of course, every

662
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 2: detective said, oh, you make sandwiches. No, I didn't make sandwiches.

663
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 2: I did everything bar make sandwiches. But you know, I

664
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 2: was first in last out. I found the work absolutely fascinating.

665
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 2: I devoured everything that I could around sexual homicide doctor

666
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 2: Anne Burgess's work because she was instrumental in the FBI

667
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 2: of setting up the behavioral science units, and I just

668
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 2: found the work really intriguing and felt like, you know,

669
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 2: I was a duck in water the place where I

670
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 2: should be. Went back to finish my finals and the

671
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 2: head of the unit said, we'd love you to come

672
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 2: back if you would consider it and head up the

673
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,240
Speaker 2: sexual offenses section. And I was going to go traveling,

674
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,439
Speaker 2: but I just felt it was too good an opportunity.

675
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 2: So you know what I'll say is that tenacity pays off.

676
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 2: I kind of I didn't know whether that was the

677
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 2: thing I really wanted to do, and if it didn't

678
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 2: work out, I'd go on and do law, but the

679
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,879
Speaker 2: psychology aspects and setting up something part of something new

680
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 2: that created and helped victims felt like a really good

681
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 2: place to be.

682
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand being driven by that, the interest in

683
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: the type of work I've always found the psychology, as

684
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 1: I said in the introduction, the psychology of a homicide investigation,

685
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 1: understanding the mindset, the motive, and all the nuances that

686
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 1: play out when you're looking at an investigation. In those

687
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 1: early days, I referenced Sarah ul and people that have

688
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 1: listened to the podcast, I've had her on the podcast,

689
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 1: and I talk about it often I was in homicide

690
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,959
Speaker 1: for a long time and Sarah Uel was attached specifically

691
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 1: to help with investigations, not just a homicide, but other

692
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 1: units were in the police and it was like an

693
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: untapped resource because people didn't realize what she had to offer,

694
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: and we joke about it. I thought she was my

695
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,359
Speaker 1: own private criminal psychologists that I could call any time,

696
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,800
Speaker 1: because people hadn't discovered the work that she could provide.

697
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: Eventually they did find out, and all of a sudden

698
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 1: she had to work on other investigations. I was shocked.

699
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: I thought, I thought that she worked exclusively for me.

700
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 1: But the benefits that I got from that having someone

701
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: look at an investigation because you've worked in law enforcement,

702
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: you understand the culture and yeah, if we've got the

703
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 1: blinkers on them, police are thinking one way. I would

704
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: quite often have a view and then sound that pass,

705
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: run that past Sarah, and she would change my thinking

706
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 1: on certain things. With some crimes, like I'd be going,

707
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: what's a motive? What are we looking for here? And

708
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: she would point out that, well, the person that committed

709
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 1: the crime might not even know why they've committed the crime,

710
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:50,280
Speaker 1: and this was an abduction of a child. Different things

711
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 1: like that, and I found the input invaluable to help

712
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 1: with the investigation. It really kept me and it was

713
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: a way of me checking my thought process and steering

714
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: me in the right direction. Once people understood what you

715
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: could provide to them, did you find that it was

716
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 1: more readily accepted.

717
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 2: Well, It would depend on the senior investigating officer and

718
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 2: the leader would set the tone right, so the you

719
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 2: gary would set the tone as to whether I was

720
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 2: accepted and treated well or not. And so if you're

721
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 2: inserted into an investigation, then you're not treated particularly well.

722
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 2: But what I found when I worked with really good dcies,

723
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 2: it was a very positive experience that they got a

724
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 2: lot out of it. I did, and we worked together

725
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 2: really well. But if you've got someone who just doesn't

726
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 2: believe in what you're doing, and they're resistant and they

727
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,240
Speaker 2: keep you out of meetings and they do all sorts

728
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 2: of you know, underhand things, and it's a really negative experience.

729
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 2: And I've had plenty of those, so, you know, and

730
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,479
Speaker 2: I think there's so much to offer if the seen

731
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 2: investigating officer or whoever you're working with is open minded.

732
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 2: You know, when I worked in the FBI for three months,

733
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,760
Speaker 2: when we did case consults. We'd all sit under table

734
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,240
Speaker 2: and everyone would just share their opinion as an expert,

735
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 2: and it was up to the SiO to decide what

736
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 2: they found value in that. We all had our own

737
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 2: expertise and niches and we were there to add value

738
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 2: to the investigation, but it was ultimately up to the SiO.

739
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 2: But often you wouldn't even get a fair shake. And

740
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 2: I think that that's a huge disservice because when you collaborate,

741
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 2: you get to a far better outcome, and you know

742
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 2: that's really you're just another tool in the toolbox that

743
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 2: you can be called upon, you know. And I'll give

744
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 2: you an example, And I worked on the case of

745
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 2: Amiie de la Gronde who was hit over the back

746
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 2: of the head on Twickenham Green And this was in

747
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 2: two thousand and four August the nineteenth, two thousand and four,

748
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 2: and the head of homicide called me up and told

749
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 2: me about what had happened to Amelie and she died

750
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 2: on the way to hospital. Really horrific case in Twickenham

751
00:41:55,520 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 2: on a cricket pitch, so low volume crime, you know,

752
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 2: it shocked the community. I was in America working at

753
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 2: the time, and the head of Homicides said, I'm going

754
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 2: to deploy you on this Category A plus murder investigation

755
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 2: when you get back. I've already deployed some of your team.

756
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 2: And I said, right, you know, understood, And I asked

757
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 2: him to tell me everything that was known. And we

758
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 2: had this whole debate about what the motive was then,

759
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 2: and there the kind of seemingly and the SiO who

760
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 2: was in charge of the case, you know, it kept

761
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 2: being talked about as a motiveless crime, and I said,

762
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 2: there's no such thing as a motiveless crime. There is

763
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 2: always a motive to the offender, just because we don't

764
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 2: know what it is. Because she had been hit over

765
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 2: the back of the head, but her phone had been taken,

766
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 2: but nothing stolen, her bag was there, so it seemingly

767
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,359
Speaker 2: looked like this random attack that was motiveless. And I said,

768
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 2: it had meaning to the offender, and this looks like

769
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 2: a mission killed whatever she represented to him. So they're

770
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,959
Speaker 2: the things of crimes against women that sometimes men don't

771
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 2: really understand. There wasn't a sexual attack on her, but

772
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 2: it was sexually motivated and it was about what she represented.

773
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 2: But often you hear things being said like it's a

774
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 2: motiveless crime. And even that, you know, when we understand

775
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 2: the psychology, nothing is motiveless. It always has meaning, and

776
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 2: our job is to discern what that meaning is, to

777
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 2: interpret it. You know, every contact leaves a trace. Whatever

778
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 2: that trace might be. It might be what he doesn't

779
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 2: do at the scene, not necessarily what he does do.

780
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 2: So you know, that's where you can really add value

781
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 2: of finding an offender. In fact, we found him within

782
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 2: three months. He was a serial killer. And as I

783
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 2: said to the senior investigating officer and to the head

784
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 2: of homicide and everyone that was involved, we knew that

785
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 2: we had a serial killer case because my unit had

786
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 2: found other cases that we linked him to it. But

787
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 2: I said, appeal to the women that he knows, because

788
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 2: he will behave in a violent, abusive, psychologically, very damaging

789
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,439
Speaker 2: and harmful way to those women. Let's appeal to them

790
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,720
Speaker 2: because he whoever he is, does not want to get caught,

791
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,320
Speaker 2: so don't waste your time appealing to him. And you

792
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 2: remember the good old days where sometimes you would have

793
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 2: an SiO appeal directly to the offender. Well understanding the

794
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 2: psychology and motivation. I mean, of course it sounds silly now,

795
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 2: but most don't want to be caught. And this was

796
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 2: the guy who didn't want to be caught and did

797
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 2: everything forensically to ensure he wouldn't be caught. So as

798
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 2: I don't waste you know, five minutes talking to him directly,

799
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 2: talk to the women that know him. And on day

800
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 2: two of the investigation, a woman called Joe Collins walked

801
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 2: into the mobile police station at Twickenham Green which had

802
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,399
Speaker 2: been set up, and said, the man you're looking for

803
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,439
Speaker 2: is called Levi Bellfield and she told us a whole

804
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 2: load of history and her statement came to me at

805
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 2: my unit and it literally was I said, you know,

806
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 2: the probability is this is our guy, and he has

807
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 2: harmed many many women. We've got to find those other cases.

808
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 2: And he was actually charged with domestic violence rate before

809
00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:58,280
Speaker 2: any of the murders.

810
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,760
Speaker 1: Right. So then back to what we started off talking

811
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 1: about those indicators that, yeah, these red flags that you

812
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 1: can see it's almost going to build up, and the

813
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 1: murder by slow motion. I find it fascinating what you

814
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: said there about appealing to the media. I in the

815
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,959
Speaker 1: high profile jobs that I had, that there was some

816
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 1: media that needed to be addressed. I would consult and

817
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: I'll keep referencing Sarah, consult with Sarah about the messaging

818
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: I want to put out or looking at putting out.

819
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 1: I remember one particular case I put out there, and

820
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 1: as you were saying that, it made me think about it.

821
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 1: Sometimes the appeal might be going to the offend of

822
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 1: the suspect, making them feel the pressures coming down. But

823
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 1: we put an appeal out on the high profile job here.

824
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: It was William Tyrrell Investigation and basically said that the

825
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: narrative that I wanted to deliver in the release to

826
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 1: the media in the stand up was that whoever's watching this,

827
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 1: have a look at the person beside you, because they

828
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: might react strange. They might turn it off as if

829
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: they're not interested in it, or they might overreact. So

830
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: I was thinking, I'm trying to create an environment where

831
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 1: the persons sitting there, maybe with his partner family, Oh,

832
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,319
Speaker 1: let's turn this bullshit off, or what do you mean

833
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 1: this person. I like to try things like that when

834
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 1: and you call it a tool or a strategy when

835
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 1: you're having the briefings, I think it's important to have

836
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 1: a strategy when you're talking to the media. My cringe

837
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 1: over here when I see a police officer get up

838
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 1: there and that's not really invested in the investigation and

839
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 1: stand there and go, we don't know what's happened. We've

840
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 1: got no CCTV footage, there's no witnesses, there's and it's

841
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,919
Speaker 1: virtually giving the offender. Okay, just keep my mouth shut

842
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 1: and I'll get away of this. What's your thoughts on

843
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 1: using media and investigations and different strategies that can be employed.

844
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 2: I think it's so important you have to use media.

845
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,800
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, the publica your eyes and ears,

846
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,359
Speaker 2: and that's always been my position of what you put

847
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 2: out really does matter, and oftentimes it does lead to

848
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 2: an arrest when you ask people very specific things to

849
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 2: do or be on the lookout for certain things. But

850
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 2: you have to be quite specific. I mean, you think

851
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 2: about Gabby Patito's case here, which I covered on Crime

852
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 2: Analyst in twenty four episodes, and she was found because

853
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 2: of people who were following the media coverage and saw

854
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 2: the white van. So the public are such an important part,

855
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 2: but you've got to give them very specific things to

856
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 2: look for, and you know, you can't be too general.

857
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 2: And of course, now with the rise of kind of

858
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 2: the true crime world, where everyone's like an internet sleuth,

859
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 2: use them in a productive way, don't try and shut

860
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 2: them down, try and use them in the ways that

861
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 2: are thoughtful, that can actually help you. So, you know,

862
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 2: we've had quite a lot of those case is where

863
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 2: there's been criticism of you know, the internet sleuth and

864
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 2: the armchair detective. But I think it's because they haven't

865
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 2: been given very specific direction and they go off on

866
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 2: their own, and you know, they can be incredibly helpful,

867
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 2: and particularly when we're thinking about post defense behavior. And

868
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 2: a lot of my work is looking at post defense behavior,

869
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 2: you know, and I've covered lots of cases on the

870
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,800
Speaker 2: podcast where I've shown how post defense behavior can be

871
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 2: so important in understanding it but also catching the offender

872
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 2: and you know, giving detectives that information is important. Are

873
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 2: you having a huddle with you know, doctor was it

874
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 2: doctor Sarah Sarah l with Sarah Yule, you know, and

875
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 2: her giving you a very clear steer and what to

876
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 2: look out for. Some things you want to just keep

877
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 2: for you and other things you want to put into

878
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 2: the public domain. And you've got to be discerning about

879
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 2: which of those things you're going to do and to whom.

880
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it seems to seeing you talked and the podcast. Now,

881
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: podcasting obviously here the stay, but it's changed the dynamics

882
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 1: in that the police can't control the narrative all the

883
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: time that goes out because podcasts, and we've had some

884
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 1: podcasts over here. Teachers Pet is one where an investigation

885
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 1: that was basically shut down and was going though where

886
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:25,800
Speaker 1: then this Teacher's Pet podcast came on board and information

887
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,440
Speaker 1: started to happen. Things started to happen. And I have

888
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 1: no doubts, being involved in homicide at the time that

889
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 1: that case wouldn't have been solved without the attention that

890
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 1: the Teacher's Pet bought board on it. So it's a

891
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 1: different landscape. But yeah, the media and investigations, I know

892
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 1: you've crossed the line, and I've crossed the line because

893
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: we're working in the media now. We've worked in law enforcement.

894
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 1: But I always saw there's a tool that could be

895
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 1: used and used very specifically and for benefits to the investigation.

896
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 1: And I still see now I've gone into the madia.

897
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 1: I'm working in the media. I say, the benefits that

898
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,280
Speaker 1: can be done if there's cooperation, Yes.

899
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 2: And you have to use the tool in the right

900
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 2: way and I think Headley Thomas's investigation into Lannette's case

901
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 2: and I know it very well because we covered it

902
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 2: on my other podcast or a crime profile, and gave

903
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 2: it an international lens. And actually then I work with

904
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,720
Speaker 2: Headley in the background because it was always a coercid

905
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 2: control case and I think what he did was phenomenal

906
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 2: and that's not always welcomed by the police, and I

907
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 2: think they have to find a way to allow it

908
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 2: to be useful and helpful and productive, and it's not

909
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:42,799
Speaker 2: always about controlling the narrative. Yes, there are certain things

910
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 2: that you don't want to put in the public domain,

911
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 2: but I think most people understand that if there are sensitivities,

912
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 2: then you let media colleagues know that there are sensitivities

913
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 2: and there's certain things that are being withheld that they

914
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 2: don't want in the public domain. I think you've got

915
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 2: to be grown up about that, and too often I'm

916
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 2: not seeing that happening. But but podcasts are here to stay,

917
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 2: they're not going away, and you can do a lot

918
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 2: of good with direction and clarity about your requirements. And

919
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 2: in fact, New South Wales Police did contact me with

920
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 2: our coverage at Lynette's case and they asked because of

921
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 2: the impending arrest and potential prosecution. They asked, could we

922
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 2: have a meeting and I said yes, on behalf of

923
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 2: the team. And they asked, would we be prepared to

924
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 2: take the content down because of some judas matters, because

925
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:33,359
Speaker 2: we don't want to impact the trial, And I said,

926
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 2: of course, I totally understand why you would want that

927
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,359
Speaker 2: to happen. No issue. So we took our episodes down.

928
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 2: We're not going to try and jeopardize a case.

929
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 1: And I think the police have got to understand that

930
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:48,479
Speaker 1: most people, I would suggest, don't want the jeopardizer case.

931
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:52,320
Speaker 1: When you're talking about the very serious murder, abduction, whatever.

932
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,800
Speaker 1: People don't want to jeopardize the case. But with Headley,

933
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:59,359
Speaker 1: and I know Headley will and initially the police were

934
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 1: resistantly cooperating, and then he had a high, high level

935
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:06,840
Speaker 1: meeting with the commissioner and eventually it was agreed, okay,

936
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 1: we can work in unison here without compromising the investigation

937
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 1: or the integrity of the police, just working together, and yeah,

938
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,879
Speaker 1: they got the results. It was interesting that you said

939
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: you've had people reach out to you with the work

940
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 1: that you do as a podcaster. I have that same

941
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 1: type of thing. I have people reach out to me

942
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 1: that the frustrated about the crime, and I had one

943
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 1: person get in contact with me. I'm not revealing details

944
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 1: obviously that you do a lot on your podcast talking

945
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 1: about crimes that have happened, and you do good there.

946
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:44,880
Speaker 1: But I'm in a domestic violence situation and I honestly

947
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 1: feel I'm going to be killed, and I'm at wits

948
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:51,800
Speaker 1: end trying to get assistance from the police and different things.

949
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 1: I'm dealing with that person now, and it horrifies me

950
00:52:56,440 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 1: that it's almost like I'm seeing the red flags. The

951
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 1: person's doing everything she can in going to law enforcement agencies,

952
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 1: going to the police, and going through the courts and

953
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: all that, but it's not stopped. And I can hear

954
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: the genuine fear in her voice saying nothing's going to

955
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:17,319
Speaker 1: stop this. It's going to stop when I'm dead. Now,

956
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 1: I get contacted by a lot of people with that.

957
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 1: It really made me think someone's got to do something

958
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 1: about this case. And so I've been in communication with

959
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:31,759
Speaker 1: the person trying to help, and I share her frustration,

960
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 1: but more importantly, her fear. She is living her life

961
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:38,240
Speaker 1: in fear, thinking of the consequences of what's going to happen.

962
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:43,359
Speaker 2: Yes, and unfortunately, Gary, I hear from hundreds of it's

963
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 2: predominantly women, not always exclusively women, but you know, this

964
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:50,360
Speaker 2: is sort of the main stay that on crime analyst,

965
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,840
Speaker 2: some real crime profile. We've always talked about course of

966
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 2: control and child abuse and sexual abuse and domestic violence

967
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 2: and stalking to educate people. And so you educate people,

968
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 2: but then police and others still haven't caught up. And

969
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 2: it's not just the police, it's the courts, it's the

970
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 2: probation officers, it's the judges, it's you know, a whole

971
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:11,479
Speaker 2: system's approach that needs to change. But for me, having

972
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:16,360
Speaker 2: done this work for almost three decades, it's a leadership issue.

973
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:20,360
Speaker 2: And if the leaders don't see it as important, then

974
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 2: they don't train the staff, they don't resource the units,

975
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 2: they don't create real change. And I think, you know,

976
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 2: in Australia, I've done a lot of work over there.

977
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,799
Speaker 2: I gave evidence regarding Queensland changing the law and course

978
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:35,719
Speaker 2: of control. I've also reviewed lots of different types of

979
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 2: cases from Kelly Wilkinson, Marion Barter, and I've been asked

980
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 2: to comment, you know, and give my analysis on Amy

981
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 2: Wensley's case more recently, and the patterns are just all

982
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 2: the same that women do try and get help, but

983
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:54,200
Speaker 2: they're not being listened to. And unfortunately that's not changing.

984
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 2: And you know there's a political commitment now after you

985
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 2: know what are we on sixty four women now being

986
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:04,840
Speaker 2: murdered in Australia. You're on one every four days, I

987
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:07,279
Speaker 2: think it is, or is it for a week now

988
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:11,719
Speaker 2: in Australia. Really alarming that the femicide rates increasing and

989
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 2: women don't have six months to wait when change will

990
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 2: come in. And part of what I see as one

991
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 2: of the major problems is that serial offenders, serial domestic

992
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:26,799
Speaker 2: abusers and stalkers are not treated seriously at all. You

993
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 2: don't get people joining up their histories and then treating

994
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 2: them like terrorists. And if police applied the tactics that

995
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 2: we used for serious and organized criminals and terrorists, we

996
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 2: would be saving lives. And we started that a New

997
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 2: Scotland yard, various police forces all around the country. I

998
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:47,319
Speaker 2: worked with them and they got up and running, but

999
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:50,399
Speaker 2: we still didn't have a national database of those individuals

1000
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 2: and I'm still fighting for that now. It's only just

1001
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:55,839
Speaker 2: been agreed twenty three years later, would you believe that

1002
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 2: the political will the ministers in the new government have

1003
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 2: said it's going to happen, because they're the ones I

1004
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:04,759
Speaker 2: was working with all along, you know, in terms of

1005
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 2: the campaign and in Parliament. And it's the same in

1006
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 2: Australia and in America. You've got really a small subgroup

1007
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 2: of offenders who are causing a huge amount of harm

1008
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:20,279
Speaker 2: and damage to women and children, and they're just not

1009
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 2: being treated as the serious and very harmful individuals that

1010
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:27,440
Speaker 2: they are, and they are being greenlit to escalate. And

1011
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:31,719
Speaker 2: then the murders happen and people say they're sorry, and

1012
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 2: that's it.

1013
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 1: When people get away with one offense and the punishment

1014
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 1: doesn't stop them, they becoming boldened or they get away

1015
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 1: with it because it's not being treated seriously. It's a

1016
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: local court mather stalking Like all the time I spent

1017
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 1: as a detective, the only time I came across stalking

1018
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 1: in homicide was when after the murder had happened and

1019
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 1: then ah, yeah, this person had been stalking the victim

1020
00:56:56,600 --> 00:57:00,359
Speaker 1: for a long time, and that type of narrative. These

1021
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 1: are the things that we've got to get on top of.

1022
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:05,319
Speaker 1: I just want to take a short break here. We

1023
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 1: have got so much to talk about and the work

1024
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 1: that you're doing. We're talking in theory about how it

1025
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 1: can be done. You've actually put things in place to

1026
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 1: prevent crimes. And we'll talk about some of the high

1027
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:22,360
Speaker 1: profile investigations you're reviewed or been involved in, and if

1028
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 1: we could just take a short break and we'll be

1029
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 1: back shortly for part two.