WEBVTT - Bonus Ep: How Iran is using rap and lego to win the propaganda war

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, Orange Pigs America first hoops, Oh boy, that was

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<v Speaker 1>the slogan you sold.

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<v Speaker 2>Iran's wartime propaganda videos featuring AI rap music and lego

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<v Speaker 2>characters are getting millions of views online. They praise the

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<v Speaker 2>Islamic Republic and mock Trump, but their message is also dark,

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<v Speaker 2>anti Semitic and leaning into conspiracy theories.

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<v Speaker 3>Make Israel great again.

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<v Speaker 1>They vorted you to die for Israel.

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<v Speaker 3>For Israel, they lied to you.

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<v Speaker 2>So how's a regime that shut down the Internet and

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<v Speaker 2>isn't known for its sense of humor captured the zeitgeist?

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<v Speaker 2>So well, I'm Nicole Johnston and you're listening to seven

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<v Speaker 2>AM today Holly Daggers, an Iranian American analyst from the

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<v Speaker 2>Washington Institute, on Iran's viral meme war and what it

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<v Speaker 2>tells us about the regime. It's Thursday, April thirty. Holly,

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<v Speaker 2>I've got to say I've become a bit addicted to

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<v Speaker 2>watching these Iranian lego videos over the last couple of weeks,

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<v Speaker 2>and they really seem to have taken the world by storm.

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<v Speaker 2>But before we get into who made them, what's behind it,

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<v Speaker 2>let's talk through a couple of them.

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<v Speaker 3>What's one that's really stuck out to you.

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<v Speaker 4>I think that the one that really stood out to

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<v Speaker 4>me recently was the one about Secretary of War Pete

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<v Speaker 4>Hagsath Pete Hexas.

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<v Speaker 3>This one especially for you, so rapa faress here Persian language.

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<v Speaker 4>Rap is big in Iran, and so it doesn't surprise

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<v Speaker 4>me that they would take rap and make it a medium,

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<v Speaker 4>especially since it also has u US pop culture, as in.

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<v Speaker 1>As Secretary, what a joke, bro cheated on lives, multiple

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<v Speaker 1>kids in the mixed family man, hell No, handsy with women,

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<v Speaker 1>and Fox drunk on the job, your own.

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<v Speaker 3>Team say yo, this dude's taxic.

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<v Speaker 4>I think this is purely for an American audience, at

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<v Speaker 4>least the lego videos, because they're very US centric.

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<v Speaker 1>We hit in the ball works, the Ben Epstein Island

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<v Speaker 1>crewe the ones who hurt the kids, revenge for every

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<v Speaker 1>American soul.

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<v Speaker 3>You and Trump's dirty crew up Preston.

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<v Speaker 4>Did we take paper? Of course, there's this nod to

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<v Speaker 4>the Jeoffrey Epstein files, and that's also a very popular

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<v Speaker 4>theme that you see in these lego videos, highlighting the

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<v Speaker 4>hypocrisy of elites in America and the corruption and the

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<v Speaker 4>lack of accountability in the US while they're wagging their

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<v Speaker 4>finger at Ran Russia China about human rights abuses.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, make America great again, now mega would we would

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<v Speaker 1>see what happens. Yeah, watch this sec with defense. We're

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<v Speaker 1>protecting the sort of while you sat face sold just

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<v Speaker 1>to pay for your oil.

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<v Speaker 4>Each and every one of them has a lot of

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<v Speaker 4>attention to detail, not just in this video specifically, but

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<v Speaker 4>other ones as well, Like it depicted President Donald Trump

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<v Speaker 4>as a gambler, and actually that was a nod to

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<v Speaker 4>IRG Sigarette's Force Commander loss Some Solomony, who was actually

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<v Speaker 4>killed by the first Trump administration in the US airstrike

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<v Speaker 4>in Iraq, and Solomony famously used to describe Trump as

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<v Speaker 4>a gambler.

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<v Speaker 2>We were talking about one earlier. It goes through Trump's

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<v Speaker 2>business deals in the Gulf. It's God Jared Kushner in it,

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<v Speaker 2>and then it lists this long list of US wars

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<v Speaker 2>around the world. The creators have really done their homework.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and I think it really leans into this anti

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<v Speaker 4>imperialist lens.

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<v Speaker 3>So the Islamic Republic.

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<v Speaker 4>I would say, in very simple terms, sees itselves as

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<v Speaker 4>the rebels and star wars, and the US is the Empire,

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<v Speaker 4>the Mountain the.

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<v Speaker 1>Files day, but another common name is standing you strike

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<v Speaker 1>one man, we just sat in your brain, we put

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<v Speaker 1>another in.

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<v Speaker 4>The US has a history, especially in the Middle East

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<v Speaker 4>and to the east of Iran in Afghanistan, where they've

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<v Speaker 4>had these forever wars that they have not successfully been

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<v Speaker 4>able to win. The team behind these videos explosive media

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<v Speaker 4>is honing in on these US historical contacts, and so

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<v Speaker 4>it's not surprising to me that they would focus on

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<v Speaker 4>that to say, yes, this is yet another failed US

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<v Speaker 4>war in the Middle East that could be a potential

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<v Speaker 4>forever war where American troops are killed. And these are

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<v Speaker 4>real sensitive issues for the American public, especially the magabase,

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<v Speaker 4>who are mostly isolationists and opposed to these kind of

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<v Speaker 4>wars because it should be America first. We shouldn't be

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<v Speaker 4>going back to wars in the Middle East, and so

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<v Speaker 4>this really clashes with what the President's been saying.

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<v Speaker 2>Holly, how has Israel featured in the videos, Because one

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<v Speaker 2>of the most striking images that I've seen recently has

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<v Speaker 2>Israeli soldiers looking over US citizens in chains in a

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<v Speaker 2>bombed out America. That was the final sort of scene

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<v Speaker 2>of one of the recent ones.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I think that there's a lot of anti Semitism

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<v Speaker 4>that are president in these videos. It basically is saying

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<v Speaker 4>that Israel's controlling the strings of the United States. They're

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<v Speaker 4>depicting Israeli Prime Minister of Benjamin Antanyahu drinking the blood

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<v Speaker 4>of I assumed children. I think it even had the

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<v Speaker 4>double wearing the Star of David. So it's really leaning

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<v Speaker 4>into that anti Semitism that, unfortunately the Islamac Republic has

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<v Speaker 4>been known for.

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<v Speaker 2>Holy you're American but you haven't around him background. Can

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<v Speaker 2>you give us any insight into why you think they

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<v Speaker 2>chose Lego for these videos?

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<v Speaker 4>So my understanding because one of the team members behind

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<v Speaker 4>Explosive Media is said that it's because Legos globally resonate,

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<v Speaker 4>but I think just unpacking why it's so surprising that

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<v Speaker 4>they're able to lean so well into these themes that.

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<v Speaker 3>Resonate with Americans.

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<v Speaker 4>And of course, if there's also these Iranian embassy accounts

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<v Speaker 4>that are posting memes, some of which are just related

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<v Speaker 4>to viral moments, it's because they're of that access and

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<v Speaker 4>it's because there are young Iranians that are curious about

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<v Speaker 4>the outside world. I know that Iran's relatively isolated from

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<v Speaker 4>much of the world, but Iranians have to use circumvention

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<v Speaker 4>tools to get online historically. Unfortunately, now there's an internet

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<v Speaker 4>shut down, the longest in modern day history since the

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<v Speaker 4>war began. And so I don't necessarily think that everybody

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<v Speaker 4>that will be working on this team is pro regime,

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<v Speaker 4>but are and it perhaps for the money, because they

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<v Speaker 4>have a real good understanding and sense of American POLP culture,

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<v Speaker 4>the news cycle, and of course English language skills.

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<v Speaker 3>That being said, Explosive Media.

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<v Speaker 4>Has said that they are a customer of the Isslatmak

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<v Speaker 4>Republics are not really as independent as they had initially suggested.

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<v Speaker 4>So I wouldn't be surprised if the company that's behind

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<v Speaker 4>these lego videos are also behind the Iranian embassy accounts

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<v Speaker 4>and even a speaker of Parliament, Mohammed barer Ldibov, who's

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<v Speaker 4>also been very cheeky in his tweets in recent weeks.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, how different is this to the type of

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<v Speaker 2>propaganda that Iran and the regime would have put out

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<v Speaker 2>in the past.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I'll just give you another example that you might

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<v Speaker 4>not have seen. But when there were the American pilots

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<v Speaker 4>that were down in their jets. A couple of weeks ago,

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<v Speaker 4>there were all these AI generated pictures of like an

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<v Speaker 4>US soldier marrying local woman from a tribe in Iran

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<v Speaker 4>making kebab, and it was to hints at the hospitality

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<v Speaker 4>of Iranians, and these were depictions by the Iranian diaspora.

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<v Speaker 3>They instantly made a lego version where these local.

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<v Speaker 4>Tribesmen from the Lure ethnic minority were chasing a pilot

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<v Speaker 4>with guns, and so it was like to counter the

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<v Speaker 4>narrative of well, this is an enemy, we're not going

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<v Speaker 4>to be hospitable.

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<v Speaker 3>But the Islamak Republic has been behind the times for

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<v Speaker 3>a while now.

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<v Speaker 4>They've tried to really lean in hard into the narrative

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<v Speaker 4>of the bloody eight year war with Iraq in the

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<v Speaker 4>nineteen eighties and the notion of martyrdom, but it really

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<v Speaker 4>doesn't resonate with Irani and gen z that weren't alive

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<v Speaker 4>when that war happened. And so I think over time

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<v Speaker 4>they realized that actually there's a way to do this,

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<v Speaker 4>and perhaps they might have even been inspired by the

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<v Speaker 4>current Trump administration's White House account, which has been using

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<v Speaker 4>AI generated videos with themes like call of Duty, La

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<v Speaker 4>Boo boo dolls and honing in on topics like ice rates,

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<v Speaker 4>the Iran war, and so perhaps they finally looked at

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<v Speaker 4>that and were like, Hey, I have an idea. Why

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<v Speaker 4>don't we counter their narrative with this kind of narrative?

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<v Speaker 4>And I think that's how it resonated. But it's really

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<v Speaker 4>because it's spent a lot of time on social media

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<v Speaker 4>and understanding the information space and understanding how the American

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<v Speaker 4>public thinks and feels in this moment.

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<v Speaker 2>Coming up the hidden hypocrisy of the lego memes. What

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<v Speaker 2>do you think the reaction would have been to these

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<v Speaker 2>videos inside the country from both pro and anti regime people.

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<v Speaker 2>And I also know, Holly that you really focus on

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<v Speaker 2>young people in Iran. So do you think they would

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<v Speaker 2>in some ways be sort of loving this attention and

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<v Speaker 2>this propaganda war or are they just really focused on

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<v Speaker 2>trying to survive?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I think progme Iranians if they could understand in

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<v Speaker 4>an entirety of what was being said, I think it

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<v Speaker 4>would resonate because some of those themes, like the Epstein

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<v Speaker 4>files or having that deity ball, or the reference to

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<v Speaker 4>Trump as a gambler, these are themes that we actually

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<v Speaker 4>see in the pro regime rallies like the nineteen seventy

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<v Speaker 4>nine Revolution anniversary that happens annually in February, and so

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<v Speaker 4>I think that would resonate. But for the average Iranian

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<v Speaker 4>that's anti regime, I think they would just scoff at it,

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<v Speaker 4>because for them, in this moment, they're trying.

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<v Speaker 3>To get by the little bit that I've been able

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<v Speaker 3>to connect to Iranians.

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<v Speaker 4>Inside Iran, separate from the war, they're still processing the

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<v Speaker 4>unprecedented massacre of Iranians protesters in January.

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<v Speaker 5>Ms International is sounding the alarm over Iran's crackdown on

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<v Speaker 5>anti government protests that have swept the country. The human

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<v Speaker 5>rights group says Iranian authorities have committed mass killings on

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<v Speaker 5>an unprecedented scale, with security forces routinely using lethal force

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<v Speaker 5>against unarmed protesters.

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<v Speaker 4>And so I think that this is not going to

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<v Speaker 4>be a focus for the average Iranian.

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<v Speaker 2>While all of this propaganda war is happening, the actual

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<v Speaker 2>war is still in this very fragile stage. It's hard

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<v Speaker 2>to know where it's at.

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<v Speaker 1>Neither Tehran nor Washington seem to want to move at

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<v Speaker 1>the moment.

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<v Speaker 5>And meanwhile, the Iranians have sent the foreign minister Arachi

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<v Speaker 5>to Russia.

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<v Speaker 3>While Trump is keeping the door open to diplomacy.

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<v Speaker 5>Iraq Shei blames the United States for the last round

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<v Speaker 5>of negotiations falling apart.

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<v Speaker 2>What do you think that the regime wants at this stage?

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<v Speaker 2>Is it a cease fire or do you think that

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<v Speaker 2>they could actually be prepared to drag out this war

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<v Speaker 2>for much longer.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, we're dealing with the new face of the Islamic Republic,

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<v Speaker 4>one that's more hardline and more repressive, and I think

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<v Speaker 4>this new leadership is willing to take more gambles, and

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<v Speaker 4>I think that they're willing to escalate because they recognize

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<v Speaker 4>that this is an existential threat. In that they also

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<v Speaker 4>want to make sure that another war doesn't happen again.

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<v Speaker 4>And so that's why you see even on this blockade,

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<v Speaker 4>there have been entertaining talks, but they haven't decided to

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<v Speaker 4>go to Islamabad.

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<v Speaker 3>So basically they're calling Trump on his bluff.

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<v Speaker 4>And I think that for them, they want to make

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<v Speaker 4>sure this is the war that ends all future wars.

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<v Speaker 3>And unfortunately, if.

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<v Speaker 4>And when that does happen, I think if they had

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<v Speaker 4>their brother, they would go all the way and try

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<v Speaker 4>to develop a nuclear weapon to make sure that a

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<v Speaker 4>future conflict doesn't arise, because they see it as a

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<v Speaker 4>form of deterrence.

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<v Speaker 2>Finally, Holly, if we could look inside Iran now, Trump

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<v Speaker 2>initially urged Iranians to rise up against the regime. That

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<v Speaker 2>didn't happen during this war. And if anything, some analysts

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<v Speaker 2>are saying iron could become even more repressive with a

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<v Speaker 2>revolutionary guard so firmly entrenched. Now, what do you think.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, you know, I keep saying that Trump I think

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<v Speaker 4>was hoping for a Venezuela deal, but he's created a

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<v Speaker 4>North Korea instead, a regime that's more hardline, more repressive,

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<v Speaker 4>more emboldened, and unfortunately the Iranian people are caught in

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<v Speaker 4>the middle. An overwhelming majority want the Islamic Republic gone,

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<v Speaker 4>and this situation has created a place where now Iranians

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<v Speaker 4>are worried about the Islamic Republic taking revenge on the

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<v Speaker 4>Iranian people. Just earlier in March, there we're at least

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<v Speaker 4>fifteen hundred arrest Those have been growing every day. There's

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<v Speaker 4>been at least half a dozen executions, and some of

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<v Speaker 4>them are protesters tied to the January anti regime uprising,

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<v Speaker 4>but they're really trying to win the propaganda or narrative war,

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<v Speaker 4>and I think it's important to emphasize we're in the

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<v Speaker 4>longest internet shutdown in Iranian history that's been stayed in posed. Meanwhile,

0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:36.480
<v Speaker 4>these accounts are able to freely post online while the

0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:40.040
<v Speaker 4>Iranian people are really struggling to get online, or they

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<v Speaker 4>have to buy these really expensive VPNs that are I

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<v Speaker 4>would say shady because they are likely tied to the

0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:52.720
<v Speaker 4>clerical establishment security apparatus, or they're just really struggling even

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<v Speaker 4>to get connectivity in these moments. And so it's clear

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<v Speaker 4>to me that this is part of a narrative war

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<v Speaker 4>where they're trying to show them a different face to

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<v Speaker 4>the outside world while they were rophous their own people.

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<v Speaker 2>Holly, it's been great talking to you.

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<v Speaker 3>Thanks for joining us, Thank you for having me.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Nicole Johnston and this has been my last week

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<v Speaker 2>filling in for Ruby Jones, who'll be back in the

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<v Speaker 2>seven am hosting seat next week. It's been great bringing

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<v Speaker 2>you some of the biggest stories of the year so far,

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<v Speaker 2>from the beginning of the Iran War to the arrest

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<v Speaker 2>of Prince Andrew to getting out and speaking with protesters

0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:48.480
<v Speaker 2>at the explosive rally against Israeli President Isaac Hertzog. Thanks

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<v Speaker 2>so much for listening.