WEBVTT - Navigating The Bullies At Work (Ft. Suzie Plush)

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, I'm Britney Saunders and welcome back to Big Business.

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<v Speaker 1>You're in a bonus episode today and I'm joined by

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<v Speaker 1>the wonderful Susie again today. Thanks for coming back. You'll

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<v Speaker 1>have to listen to our main episode. These are coming

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<v Speaker 1>out back to back, right, Xander, Yes, okay, so go

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<v Speaker 1>listen to Monday's MAINEP. But I've got Susie back again

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<v Speaker 1>in the seat for the bonus Xander, did you have

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<v Speaker 1>a question that you wanted for this episode?

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<v Speaker 2>I do so. My question to Susie is, I used

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<v Speaker 2>to work in a workplace where I had the most

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<v Speaker 2>horrific time. It was workplace bullying, there was harassment, There's

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<v Speaker 2>all sorts of like nasty things that went on, and

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<v Speaker 2>looking back, I found myself in the moment, instead of

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<v Speaker 2>looking after myself and taking care of my mental health

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<v Speaker 2>and my physical health and setting myself up to succeed

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<v Speaker 2>at work, I was more concerned about my loyalty to

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<v Speaker 2>the business and how the decisions of others and the

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<v Speaker 2>effects of me were affecting the business. And I want

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<v Speaker 2>to ask you, how do we as like employees or

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<v Speaker 2>people who are working underneath people and working with people

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<v Speaker 2>that aren't so nice. How do we kind of protect

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<v Speaker 2>ourselves in those situations and not give everything we have

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<v Speaker 2>into something that, in the grand scheme of things, isn't

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<v Speaker 2>actually looking out for you.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, good question. And I can imagine that was so

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<v Speaker 3>incredibly difficult to be in that environment. Yes, it sounds

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<v Speaker 3>really toxic y. Yeah, And so on one hand, you're

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<v Speaker 3>trying to do your job but just feeling horrendously bullied

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<v Speaker 3>at the same time and not knowing what to do

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<v Speaker 3>and feeling like a loyalty to the business. Yeah. Look,

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<v Speaker 3>I think when you're in that type of environment's very

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<v Speaker 3>rare that that person will change. I think we hope

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<v Speaker 3>that maybe things will get better, or that person might change,

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<v Speaker 3>or the circumstance might be different. But what I've found

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of research finds is that people like that

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<v Speaker 3>are very unlikely to change, particularly by your actions. So

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<v Speaker 3>what you can do is definitely have a document that

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<v Speaker 3>you're writing down all those behaviors so you've got the

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<v Speaker 3>evidence there. If there is a HR team or someone

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<v Speaker 3>you trust in leadership, to go to them and bring

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<v Speaker 3>that up. Not trying to appease that person. Often we

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<v Speaker 3>try and get them to like us more, or we

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<v Speaker 3>overcompensate me and.

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<v Speaker 1>Isn't that so weird? And I can speak to this

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<v Speaker 1>as well. And now I've been self employed for over

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<v Speaker 1>ten years, so it's been a long time since I've

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<v Speaker 1>worked for someone else. But it really opens your eyes

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<v Speaker 1>when someone comes on board into Fate. And obviously then

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<v Speaker 1>they start talking about their past experiences or you even

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<v Speaker 1>just notice little things that they've carried with them from

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<v Speaker 1>their previous workplace and they bring it into Fate, maybe

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<v Speaker 1>because they've just held onto it. Just little things like

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<v Speaker 1>profusely apologizing for having a sick day. You know, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>so sorry, I'm letting the whole team down. And it's

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<v Speaker 1>so interesting because in my mind, I'm like, you're sick, Like,

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<v Speaker 1>have the day off. It's no stress at all, Like

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<v Speaker 1>we'll pick up anything that needs to be done kind

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<v Speaker 1>of thing. But I notice patterns in staff members that

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<v Speaker 1>have obviously been brought over from previous workplaces. I've found

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<v Speaker 1>by chatting with staff members and hearing about the places

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<v Speaker 1>that they've worked in the past, that people do tend

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<v Speaker 1>to stay really loyal to workplaces that are no good

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<v Speaker 1>for them. And what is that weird attachment that? Like

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<v Speaker 1>why is that? But do you have any insight as

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<v Speaker 1>to why that is.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there's definitely a few factors there. So sometimes it

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<v Speaker 3>can be fear of what else am I going to do?

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<v Speaker 3>And they've invested so much time here, and maybe it

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<v Speaker 3>will get better, like maybe maybe it's going to change.

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<v Speaker 3>It's like when you're a bad relationship. Oh but been

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<v Speaker 3>in this relationship for five years and you know I've

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<v Speaker 3>invested so much. Maybe it's just going to get better,

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<v Speaker 3>and you hold on to that hope is over stay

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<v Speaker 3>or you stay too long. Again, when we think back

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<v Speaker 3>to childhood patterns, that may be a bit of a

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<v Speaker 3>mirror of what was going on in their childhood. So

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<v Speaker 3>that feels familiar to them, even though it's dysfunctional, it

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<v Speaker 3>feels familiar. So you stay because you're used to that

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<v Speaker 3>kind of environment. So there can be a whole range

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<v Speaker 3>of factors why you do stay. But at the end

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<v Speaker 3>of the day, you know your work, it will come

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<v Speaker 3>and go. But you do really need to protect you know,

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<v Speaker 3>your own mental health, don't you. And so I often say,

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<v Speaker 3>if you're an environment and it's unlikely that your boss

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<v Speaker 3>is going to change, the environment most likely will not change.

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<v Speaker 3>And there's this huge changes like at a leadership level,

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<v Speaker 3>then you know it's better to look for another opportunity.

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<v Speaker 2>I find that my kind of pattern that I recognize

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<v Speaker 2>myself now is that coming into God, even coming into Nova,

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<v Speaker 2>I want people to like and accept me so much

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<v Speaker 2>that I overdo it now because I'm so scarred from

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<v Speaker 2>other interactions with you not so nice people that I

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<v Speaker 2>might constantly like overcompensating. And that's like something that I'm

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<v Speaker 2>trying to break down.

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<v Speaker 1>Now and be like, you have to do everyone likes you, and.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the conflict resolution within business is something that's really

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<v Speaker 2>interesting to me as well, because I always found that

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<v Speaker 2>that was probably the most traumatic process of the whole thing. Like, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>you've gone through these really nasty situations within a business,

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<v Speaker 2>but then the conflict resolution that happens with things like

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<v Speaker 2>HR and then the mediation between HR and the cause

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<v Speaker 2>of the problem, that was like the most traumatic part

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<v Speaker 2>of the whole thing, because then you're sitting there and

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<v Speaker 2>you're like, oh my god, it's all my fault that

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<v Speaker 2>this is happening. What advice do you have, Like, when's

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<v Speaker 2>that point where people should realize that this isn't worth it?

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<v Speaker 3>What's a good question to ask in terms of like

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<v Speaker 3>is this still working for me? I've tried all these

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<v Speaker 3>things and it's still not working. I need to look

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<v Speaker 3>at other options. And it depends on that person and

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<v Speaker 3>they're standing the organization. If they're a senior leader and

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<v Speaker 3>they're inn key leadership, they've go a lot of buying

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<v Speaker 3>in the organization, It's unlikely that they're going to change.

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<v Speaker 3>So unless you've really got that back into the scene,

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<v Speaker 3>your leadership and you feel like the HR practices, there's

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<v Speaker 3>all that support there. I just think sometimes if you

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<v Speaker 3>know you've got to continue working with that person's unlikely

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<v Speaker 3>they're probably going to change, So it might be you

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<v Speaker 3>making the change.

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<v Speaker 2>What are some healthy things to look out for within

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<v Speaker 2>like the HR or a business, Like if you're in

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<v Speaker 2>a situation like this, what are healthy practices that you

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<v Speaker 2>should look out for to be like cool, they have

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<v Speaker 2>my back?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think just the validation that you're not crazy,

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<v Speaker 3>you know in that moment, the gas lining of like

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<v Speaker 3>oh you know, they're just having a bad day, like

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<v Speaker 3>making excuses for that behavior. So just validation and acknowledgment

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<v Speaker 3>that what's happening is not okay, and then a really

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<v Speaker 3>clear plan. So this is what we're going to do

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<v Speaker 3>to fix this. So I think just that you're informed

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<v Speaker 3>of those processes, you're validated in your responses, and that

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<v Speaker 3>you feel supported in that journey. And I guess it's

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<v Speaker 3>hard because some people, you know, in your situation, the

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<v Speaker 3>bulling was quite clear. But sometimes you know, if you're

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<v Speaker 3>finding that wherever you go these problems follow you, that

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<v Speaker 3>you may be contributing.

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<v Speaker 1>To them, which isn't happening here.

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<v Speaker 3>Situation, but something. But you know you're the common denominated here.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm just saying that this is your situation.

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<v Speaker 2>But that thought crosses your mind. Yeah it is here,

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<v Speaker 2>But I mean I've never had any situation like that

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<v Speaker 2>happen at any other workplace. But when you're in it,

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<v Speaker 2>you're constantly you're questioning one the problem.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, I really like this little phrase and I

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<v Speaker 3>often say it often is that how you experience someone

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<v Speaker 3>is how most people experience them. Wow. So when you're

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<v Speaker 3>having a difficult interaction, you know you've been around with someone,

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<v Speaker 3>you walk away and you just feel like you just

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<v Speaker 3>want to like dust yourself off. What was that? And

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<v Speaker 3>then you're just spiraling a little bit afterwards. You know, Wow,

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<v Speaker 3>what I just experienced, then most people would experience that.

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<v Speaker 3>So it's actually kind of validating if you know that

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<v Speaker 3>you're not the only one. And I'm sure that particular

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<v Speaker 3>person that you were interacting with, I'm pretty confident that

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<v Speaker 3>they would have similar interactions with other people, maybe not

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<v Speaker 3>to the degree that happened to you, but in their

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<v Speaker 3>history and maybe in the workplace. Were you aware that

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<v Speaker 3>they were doing similar things?

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<v Speaker 2>There were some pretty like consistent behavior patterns.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, Yeah, so it's often not about us. Yeah, it's

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<v Speaker 3>often a trauma response and their own childhood wounds and

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<v Speaker 3>other things going on in their own world for them

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<v Speaker 3>to act in that way that is dysfunctional and often

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<v Speaker 3>a bit of a powerplay insecurity plays hugely into that

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<v Speaker 3>bullying behavior as well.

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<v Speaker 2>And these are things we don't think of when we're

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<v Speaker 2>in the situation.

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<v Speaker 1>No, And the interesting thing as well, is like being

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<v Speaker 1>on my end, being the business owner that is running

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<v Speaker 1>the workplace and hearing about things like this. Obviously we've

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<v Speaker 1>never had to touch wood, We never had to deal

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<v Speaker 1>with anything like that in the seven years of Fate.

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<v Speaker 1>We've definitely dealt with, you know, small little staff conflicts

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<v Speaker 1>or maybe someone said something that's just upset someone or

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<v Speaker 1>offended them or whatever, and we deal with that ourselves.

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<v Speaker 1>But one thing that I'm always mindful of, and I

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<v Speaker 1>guess having this conversation with you both today and I've

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<v Speaker 1>said it a million times, you know, on the internet

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<v Speaker 1>and in my podcast, is dealing with staff is the

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<v Speaker 1>hardest part of business. And it's like scenarios like this

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<v Speaker 1>that you're talking about, Like it's just being mindful as

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<v Speaker 1>a business owner and always aware of what's going on,

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<v Speaker 1>because so much shit can go on in a workplace,

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<v Speaker 1>as you know, Xander, and like I know the story

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<v Speaker 1>and things that you've experienced, and that is one of

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<v Speaker 1>my biggest fears as a business owner is I can

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<v Speaker 1>work as hard as I can to make the most

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<v Speaker 1>amazing workplace. We can have all the policies and procedures

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<v Speaker 1>in place and all the ducks in a row, but

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<v Speaker 1>it's so hard dealing with staff because sometimes people are

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<v Speaker 1>just going to cause issues. And that's like one of

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<v Speaker 1>the toughest pills to swallow as a business owner is

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<v Speaker 1>like you can be doing everything right and someone can

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<v Speaker 1>just then fuck it all up and create, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>so many problems, or be an extreme bully and like

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<v Speaker 1>just disrupt your business, and it's one thing in business

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<v Speaker 1>that you can't avoid that happening. And it's just really

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<v Speaker 1>like I'm just sitting here, like in this conversation, I'm like,

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<v Speaker 1>oh my god, I hope we never have to deal

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<v Speaker 1>with anything like this and gets involved in and it's this

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<v Speaker 1>person verse that person like touch would I never have

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<v Speaker 1>to deal with something.

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<v Speaker 2>I usually the one hearing about it. I'm like, oh

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<v Speaker 2>my god, the goss.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And then when you're in it, it's another ball game.

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<v Speaker 2>It's another ball game.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. No, I've had earlier in my career. I had

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<v Speaker 3>similar experiences. It's you know, it's really difficult, and you know,

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<v Speaker 3>building on what you were just saying, I think what

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<v Speaker 3>I see in phenomenal leaders is the ability to have

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<v Speaker 3>difficult conversations.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, I've got a saying that I always say, You're

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<v Speaker 1>gonna love it. You've probably already heard it before. But

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<v Speaker 1>the saying that I always say is hard conversations, easy life,

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<v Speaker 1>easy conversations, hard life, love it. I lived that. I

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<v Speaker 1>just went to say it backwards. Then I'm like, wait,

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<v Speaker 1>how do I say this? And like I said in

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<v Speaker 1>the main episode with you, like we don't like inflicts

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<v Speaker 1>as humans. We avoid it at all costs. We don't

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<v Speaker 1>want to have a tough conversation. But if there's one

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<v Speaker 1>thing that I've learned above all in my journey is

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<v Speaker 1>how important it is to just tackle that thing head on,

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<v Speaker 1>even if it's something tiny. I have learned from my

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<v Speaker 1>own experiences, if you just let something get swept under

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<v Speaker 1>the rug because it's only little and you don't want

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<v Speaker 1>to upset anyone, it will snowball into a massive problem

0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:27.679
<v Speaker 1>and then you'll be like, what on earth am I

0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:30.480
<v Speaker 1>supposed to do? And that's always my advice to people.

0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:33.000
<v Speaker 1>And it's always so hard when you're a new business

0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:34.880
<v Speaker 1>owner and you've just got your first couple of little

0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:37.520
<v Speaker 1>employees and you know, you're just really friendly with them,

0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:39.679
<v Speaker 1>and then they do something that's maybe a little out

0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:42.560
<v Speaker 1>of line or they've upset someone. It's really hard to

0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:45.000
<v Speaker 1>then know how to put on, you know, the big

0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:47.760
<v Speaker 1>boots and sit down and go, look like, let's chat

0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:49.960
<v Speaker 1>about this. And I was the same way when I

0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:52.720
<v Speaker 1>started faate. I didn't want to say anything bad to anyone.

0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:54.439
<v Speaker 1>I didn't want to upset someone. I didn't want to

0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:57.560
<v Speaker 1>call someone out if they'd done something wrong. In the business.

0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:01.400
<v Speaker 1>But I've really learned just the important of just having

0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:04.200
<v Speaker 1>a hard conversation to have the easy life.

0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:06.840
<v Speaker 3>I love that so much. And if you're listening and

0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:09.000
<v Speaker 3>you're thinking, oh my gosh, I want to be able

0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:11.280
<v Speaker 3>to have those difficult conversations, but how do you even

0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:11.880
<v Speaker 3>start that.

0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:14.040
<v Speaker 1>It's just taking the leap, Taking the leap.

0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:16.439
<v Speaker 3>And there's a phenomenal book by Brene Brown called Dare

0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:18.360
<v Speaker 3>to Lead, A bit of a plug for her love

0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:22.400
<v Speaker 3>her work. It's a fantastic book with a real framework

0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:24.600
<v Speaker 3>of how do you setup those conversations with your team,

0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:26.840
<v Speaker 3>how do you have those honest chats in a way

0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:30.120
<v Speaker 3>that's respectful. So some brilliant frameworks in there if you

0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:31.960
<v Speaker 3>want to check that out. She's also got a great

0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:33.360
<v Speaker 3>podcast too, Dare to Lead.

0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:36.920
<v Speaker 1>There you go, speaking of art workplaces, We've got a

0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:39.840
<v Speaker 1>little scenario for you. It's just like a made up scenario,

0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:43.000
<v Speaker 1>but we thought we would love to hear your feedback

0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:46.760
<v Speaker 1>on it. Obviously, hiring is a huge part of business,

0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:49.960
<v Speaker 1>and hiring the right person is everything. And that's another

0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:52.160
<v Speaker 1>thing that I've learned is just the importance of having

0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:54.840
<v Speaker 1>all the right people in all the right roles. And

0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:58.960
<v Speaker 1>how having one person, one wrong person in a role,

0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:01.360
<v Speaker 1>how it can just like throw the whole thing off.

0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:04.480
<v Speaker 1>And culture is everything. So I've got a scenario for you,

0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:08.240
<v Speaker 1>and i'd like to know your advice on it. Let's

0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:11.760
<v Speaker 1>say there's a scenario where you've got two people going

0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:16.320
<v Speaker 1>for a job. Okay, one of them is excellent culture wise,

0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:20.840
<v Speaker 1>like amazing culture wise, and the other one isn't very

0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:23.680
<v Speaker 1>good for the culture, but they're way better at doing

0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:26.720
<v Speaker 1>the job. Who would you be picking or what would

0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:28.080
<v Speaker 1>you be looking at in this scenario?

0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:31.560
<v Speaker 3>Okay, maybe I have a bias here, but based on

0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:36.040
<v Speaker 3>my background and the science and everything I've read and understand,

0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:37.760
<v Speaker 3>I would always choose the one that's the great for

0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:40.359
<v Speaker 3>the culture. Because skills can be taught.

0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:45.439
<v Speaker 1>One hundred percent, you cannot teach someone their personality. That's

0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:47.760
<v Speaker 1>another thing I've learned as well. And like you said

0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:52.400
<v Speaker 1>earlier when you were talking with Xander, some people are

0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:55.360
<v Speaker 1>never going to change. So if you're hiring that person

0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:57.640
<v Speaker 1>who's not really the best for the culture but amazing

0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:00.600
<v Speaker 1>at the job, you can't then train them on their

0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.920
<v Speaker 1>personality to better fit the team. Just seeing the rise

0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:06.720
<v Speaker 1>of I guess younger people becoming bosses, and we have

0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:09.560
<v Speaker 1>all these millennials that are now you know, CEOs and

0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:12.280
<v Speaker 1>founders of companies. I feel like cultures becoming so much

0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:15.640
<v Speaker 1>more important, whereas maybe twenty years ago, it was just

0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.959
<v Speaker 1>show me your resume. Yep, you've got the skills, you're hired.

0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:22.720
<v Speaker 1>So culture is everything for me. And in that scenario,

0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:25.000
<v Speaker 1>I'd probably pick the culture fit as well and teach

0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:26.200
<v Speaker 1>them all the things they need to know.

0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:28.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and you know, you want to choose people that

0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.440
<v Speaker 3>have a gross mindset that are really keen to learn

0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:34.840
<v Speaker 3>and develop, and they're hungry to adjust their thinking and

0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:38.320
<v Speaker 3>learn new skills. I think that's really crucial. It's interesting

0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:41.000
<v Speaker 3>there's been all these studies done on what makes someone likable,

0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.880
<v Speaker 3>and someone who is generally likable has an equal blend

0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:48.640
<v Speaker 3>of warmth and competence. So that's kind of what you

0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:50.720
<v Speaker 3>want to look for. Someone who is warm and engaging

0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:53.720
<v Speaker 3>and connected. And even if they're an introvert, they don't

0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.000
<v Speaker 3>have to be overly expressive, but they have to kind of,

0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:59.880
<v Speaker 3>you know, be able to have a good interaction with your.

0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:01.680
<v Speaker 2>Team overly warm.

0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:12.160
<v Speaker 3>Temperature, but then that competence, So you I think this

0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:16.280
<v Speaker 3>is a twofold situation where you don't want someone who's

0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:19.240
<v Speaker 3>just great for the culture but doesn't have the competence. Yes,

0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:22.520
<v Speaker 3>you need them to have the skills and also the

0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:25.760
<v Speaker 3>mindset that they want to learn, versus someone who's just

0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:28.080
<v Speaker 3>brilliant but isn't going to be great for the culture.

0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:29.520
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, I think it's nuanced.

0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:32.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, thanks Susie for coming on the bonus episode, and

0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:35.000
<v Speaker 1>if you haven't listened to this week's main please do.

0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:38.720
<v Speaker 1>You said it wasn't a therapy session. I saw it

0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:39.680
<v Speaker 1>as a little bit of fun.

0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:41.080
<v Speaker 3>It was psycho education.

0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:44.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly right. Well, thanks again for joining us, and

0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:45.880
<v Speaker 1>we'll definitely have to get you back in the new year.

0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:48.080
<v Speaker 3>I'd love that. Thanks so much, guys,